Alfie Kohn on Punishment

[Nine00]

I was raised without punishment and boy did my mum get picked on by everyone for that. Listening to Kohn now I am certain that I will raise my children the same way!

[SirMildredPierce]

"Sorry I had to post again - somebody in my family decided it would be funny to erase all of my videos."

Oh what did you do to punish them for doing that?

[FireGuyX]

If I was the parent I would beat the shit out of the son, as for me I would like to beat the shit out of Alfie Kohn. 

[budmotors]

@FireGuyX You couldn't beat the shit out of yourself, wuss.

[FireGuyX]

@budmotors You sure can talk tough behind that computer monitor of yours. I bet I can kick your ass.

[budmotors]

@FireGuyX Your HMO doesn't cover enemas, but I can slap the shit out of you.

[FireGuyX]

@budmotors.  Please I would beat the shit out of you so hard, I would knock all your teeth out. The only think your slapping is that monitor of yours because that's the only think you will be fighting.

[HeyItzMeDawg]

@FireGuyX Those fantasies sound like the repressed byproduct of a disturbed childhood. I find it curious that you would consider violence to be the best way of relating to either children and Alfie Kohn, and I'm glad you're in no position of authority over me (and hopefully no one else) to act on your urges.

It's a sad day indeed when the best way we know how to communicate with people we disagree with or don't like is to "beat the shit out of them".

[FireGuyX]

@HeyItzMeDawg lol at calling me a byproduct of a disturbed childhood, as if you know you me. Maybe you had a disturbed childhood. As far I can tell you are just some an idiot on the internet. It's a sad day indeed when some clueless idiot like yourself have to judge people on comments, but hey your words mean nothing to me. As for Alfie Kohn his methods are just retarded, he would actually approve of not disciplining his kids if they were violet towards each other?

[HeyItzMeDawg]

@FireGuyX Yeah, teach kids not to hit other kids by hitting them, brilliant. Good role model right there. Model parenting. Every kid should grow up to be like you.

Perhaps when children are angry enough with each other to resort to violence, the parent ought to help the child, say, recognize those feelings, understand why they are bad, control them, and work out a solution to whatever problem the child has rather than try to repress them by hitting or disciplining the child.

[FireGuyX]

@HeyItzMeDawg lol you what's up with the personal shots you stupid piece of shit? Where did I imply that people should be like me? Again you're not understanding what I am saying, I am saying that Alfie Kohn does not know the best parenting method for every child. Bad parents are people who never wanted to be parents in the first place. IF I had two kids and they were fighting, I would discipline them one way or another, but that's me, that doesn't mean Alfie Kohn's way is better.

[HeyItzMeDawg]

@FireGuyX I don't understand you? Oh no, I can read quite well, thanks:

"If I was the parent I would beat the shit out of the son, as for me I would like to beat the shit out of Alfie Kohn."

That's quite a bit different from "He doesn't know the best parenting method", or "I would discipline the kids". You said you'd "beat the shit out of the kid", and (between you and me) I'm sure not beating the shit out of a kid is one hundred times better parenting. So yeah, Alfie Kohn's way is better.

[FireGuyX]

@HeyItzMeDawg you really are a stupid piece of shit. Are you a parent, do you have kids? I doubt you do, yes I would discipline my kids if they did fought with each other. So quit being an asshole, and quit making judgments strictly on youtube comments.

[FireGuyX]

@HeyItzMeDawg Every kid is different, the fact is most modern parents have beaten their child (both physically and verbally) including mines. I don't have kids, so I can't say Kohn's parental methods is better, but you have to remember everyone is different. Kohn's method shouldn't be considered universal. Oh and I doubt your parental methods would be better then mines.

[FireGuyX]

@HeyItzMeDawg and lol I have no urgency for violence, but the fact that you think I'm a position to conduct authority over anyone just proves how retarded you are, again this is "youtube". Although I do angry over certain issues.  Sorry but Alfie Kohn doesn't know how to properly discipline children, the fact he does just proves how clueless he is. Every parent has their own way of disciplining their children, as long as they are up to the responsibility that is good enough.

[btrausch]

Nobody who has seriously studied behavior analysis has ever EVER considered that to be "time out"

That is a complete bastardization of an explanation

[BlebNevus]

That's only because "behavior analysis" is a euphemism for hard-core behaviorism, which is accepted by only a tiny, cultish subset of psychologists. The explanation in the video makes a lot of sense to most people who study child development.

[UnschoolingEagle]

No, this is just exactly what parents do in reaction to "bad" behavior.

[Emmama36]

Thanks for sharing this video on youtube. I've been raising my children for 17 years without punishments or rewards of any kind (though we do use other things that Alfie doesn't talk about like setting firm limits, listening to feelings, special time, etc.) and my children are wonderful, responsible, disciplined people.

[naturemum]

Hi, that's awesome and I'm sure your children must have grown up very happy and felt very respected.

I have read a book by Alfie called Unconditional Parenting where he does speak about limits, feelings, special time and other things. I would also HIGHLY recommend Naomi Aldort's book Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves. She is awesome! I just didn't have a video to post of hers as she already has her own youtube channel lol

[ilsesthings]

@naturemum great stuff NM! :) another excellent book is Easy to Love; Difficult to Discipline (in terms of tools) and Kids Are Worth It (in terms of philosophy). thanks for putting this out there! :)

[ilsesthings]

@naturemum @naturemum great stuff NM! :) another excellent book is Easy to Love; Difficult to Discipline (in terms of tools) and Kids Are Worth It (in terms of philosophy). thanks for putting this out there! :)

[naturemum]

I haven't deleted anything - you have to click on "view all comments" to see them for some reason - or contact youtube if you have a problem.

[Aquinas911]

If you did not delete them I apologize. It just appeared as if you did.

Also, I knew that was you - it sounded too much like you to be anyone else...... : P

Again, I admire your goals but I just believe they are misgiuded for what the real world has to offer.

[naturemum]

I am teaching my child about the real world by living in it, discussing it when it happens, encouraging him to *question* it, to question his own actions and the actions of others, to inquire into anything when he wants information. I'm not hiding him from it. I know all about punishment parenting. My dad hit me as a child - and as a young adult even. I'm sure he still would if I lived with him. The only thing I learned is to use violence to get what I want and that I deserve violence.

[naturemum]

I ended up in lots of fights, for a long time, I didn't know how to converse without becoming angry - I didn't know how to argue without fighting. I ended up in abusive relationships and put up with it because that's what my dad taught me about the real world. So while there are always going to be kids like you who took a less damaging road in life as a result of being punished or beaten - there are so many more other children who will take the opposite route.

[naturemum]

But like I said - with any parenting method, there is always the possibility that children will go down a hurtful road. My goal is to give them the tools that would help avoid that or help them get out of it if they do end up in it.

[Aquinas911]

I guess we just have different views on this. You raise your child your way and I'll do it my way.  I guess we can check back in 20 years to see who each ended up.....

Anyway, gotta go now and get back to work. Its a competitive world out there....

[naturemum]

I've already seen the differences. I am a home daycare provider and I see the differences in my son as compared to the other children, especially those who are beaten in their homes. You can reason with my son, he understands others feelings, he shows self confidence, he doesn't let the other children bully him or make him play/do things he doesn't want to do. One of the boys that is beaten in his home lets the older kids treat him like a doll.

[naturemum]

He can't even ask for things without looking like he's terrified. I can barely hear him when he's asking for something - his voice is almost inaudible and he starts to mumble. My son still uses self defense if one of the children attack him and I have no problem with them but I step in and then comes the conversation. I'm not teaching him to talk to the person when he's clearly in a life-threatening situation but I teach him to talk to a person BEFORE it gets to that point.

[naturemum]

The other parents actually ask me what I do with him to make him act like that (see the word "make him" act like that? it's all about control with them). My son is polite and I've NEVER told him to say "please, thank you" or to ask for things. He simply follows me lead because he feels good about doing it. The children that are abused even start acting differently after being around me for some time.

[naturemum]

My son questions everything.  When a kid does something he doesn't understand, he asks them why did they do that. It's funny to see the other child go into self-analysis as if that's something he's never done before. He is actually helping the other children learn about themselves.

[MartialArtsMaster]

If I may interject...you're right. It is a competitive world, if you're talking about the world of managers and underlings. You're right; if the goal of parenting is to raise good workers, who can perform any chores their bosses ask them to, OR perfect soldiers for armies, then you're right, being soft on children won't help.

IF, however, your goal is to raise children who can write the scripts for their own lives, or critical thinkers, then training them to accept cruelty is awful.

[naturemum]

Aquinas911 said that he was thinking "$(*&$ that hurt. I better not do it again". That is a perfect example of punishment (when having the "desired" effect of compliance) teaches a child. The child learns that he better not do that again or he will get punished/hurt. The way Alfie promotes is that you teach the child through words, why what he did was wrong. You first understand WHY the child did that. Was it an honest mistake? Was the child asking for attention? Was he frustrated/angry?

[naturemum]

You then try to solve that issue. Once that has been resolved, you would explain to the child why you don't want him doing what he did. You tell him either that it hurts another person, it can be dangerous to the child's health, etc etc. Now the child is taught that "I better not do that because it ____ (i.e. It hurts somebody else). Now even if the child does it again, the seed is already planted and one day, they will most likely make the connection of empathy.

[naturemum]

By using punishment, what happens when the parent no longer has the ability (physical or emotional) to hurt the child? The child is not very likely to be compliant then. This is called an extrinsic factor. Alfie promotes intrinsic motivation - his parenting methods (along with others such as Naomi Aldort, Jan Hunt, Pam Leo among others) stimulate the child to reflect on his own actions and words and how they affect others.

[naturemum]

It induces an intrinsic motivator - something that tends to last throughout the child's life and isn't likely to wear off the way fear does. The child acts in a "desired" manner because he FEELS GOOD about doing it - not because he afraid of the consequences.

[Aquinas911]

I see - so by your logic, we should encourage our children to do crack cocaine.  After all, they will "feel good" about doing it, and they they dont have to be afraid of any consequences.......

[DynamicImpulse]

That tactic seems to always be a last resort when people have no rebuttal. I was talking about promoting the development of intrinsic motivation as compared to extrinsic factors and somehow, you are getting the idea that we should encourage our children to do cocaine? This doesn't even warrant a response. I'm showing how intrinsic motivation is more effective and psychologically less damaging than an extrinsic factor such as the fear of punishment.

[Aquinas911]

Its not a last resort, its a perfect and valid logical construct using your own logic. That you now dont like the implications, while quite inconvenient for you, doesnt make it any less valid. Deal with it.

[naturemum]

That is not my logic - my logic is not to promote whatever feels good. My logic is to promote positive behaviour by facilitating intrinsic motivation. Children with true intrinsic motivators, with accurate self-perceptions of themselves are extremely unlikely to do drugs.

[UnschoolingEagle]

No, it really isn't.

[Aquinas911]

Again, naturmum, your conjectures look great on paper, but they dont reflect anything close to what exists in real life. If someone screws up at work and costs the boss money, trust me, hes not going to sit down with you to see if that person was just looking for attention or not, of it they are just frustrated or angry.

Children will ultimately have to compete and survive in the real world, which doenst care about any of the things you talk about. We should not teach them otherwise.

[DynamicImpulse]

We are parents - not bosses. If there is a high probability of our daughters being raped, should we rape them at a young age so that they know what it's like in the real world? Connection parenting prepares children to deal with how people will treat them in the real world. There would be discussion, observation, reflection and analysis about these things - which would prepare them moreso than to simply experience it without doing any sort of research into the interactions.

[naturemum]

Sorry that was my comment - somebody logged into their account on my computer and forgot to log off. Anyway, I was saying...

Connection parenting prepares children to handle different situations in life - such as a boss coming down hard on you for losing him money - so that there is less psychological damage when this does happen. CP tends to foster self-confidence and self-assurance, so that situations like this don't affect the child's perceptions of himself and confidence in his abilities.

[Aquinas911]

You're right, we should instead teach our daughters to talk to the rapist while they are raping them. Maybe the rapist is having a bad day or is frustrated.

I have actually stopped a rape of one of my good friends one time back in college. How did I do this? Because my father taught me how to box when before I was a teen. I guess my dad should have taught me to talk to him instead. Then we could have together reflected on if he enjoyed the rape or not.

[naturemum]

Again - you are twisting my words. Nowhere do I say to not teach self defense. My point is that connection parenting prevents (or at the least, lessens) the typical psychological TRAUMA that is endured in situations like this. Why do most women hide the fact that they have been raped? Why do they feel shame? Embarrassment? Like it's their fault? Afraid to talk to somebody about it? Seems pretty typical of conventional parenting tactics - shame, fear, blame.

[naturemum]

I see that you're criticizing a method without understanding it fully - maybe you should do some research on it, read a few books, then come back to me because a lot of what you're saying is not actually how connection parenting works.

[Aquinas911]

Dont confuse not understanding something with not agreeing with it, which happens a lot.

[Aquinas911]

So you're now trying to compare rape with a parent spanking a child for stealing. Talk about twisting words........

[naturemum]

You are the one that says we have to treat children in a way that the real world will treat them.

[UnschoolingEagle]

I have screwed up at jobs numerous times at different workplaces. I have yet to get fired for a few mistakes. It seems you do not understand how the real world works. If I was fired for a mistake I would be glad I was not going to work with a fool like that boss.

[naturemum]

I would also like to add to everyone watching/reading this that this is a TINY clip from Alfie's video. It doesn't express the ways in which are able to parent that are beneficial for children, nor the alternatives. He doesn't go into the adverse psychological/emotional trauma and adverse effects that are likely to occur when parenting in an unconditional manner.

[Aquinas911]

I cannot believe anyone actually listens to this garbage. His ideas for kids prepare them for nothing that they will experience in the real world.

[naturemum]

When you were punished as a child, and you were in your time-out, what thoughts were running through your head?

[naturemum]

You prepare kids for the real world by speaking to them as people, by showing them things outside when you see them, by researching ideas, facts, information with them.

What does punishment teach them about the real world?

[Aquinas911]

Time out? When I was punished as a child depending on the severity the punishment would often be doled out in the form a leather belt. Funny how fast I learned from it too.

It was the same for me and all my four brothers. We all came from blue collar parents, and we all are now college educated and quite successful. Every one of us. No drugs/arrests etc from any of us as kids.

Looks like there is something to be said for discipline.....

[naturemum]

All that says is that punishment makes compliant children. They are teaching you to control people and that violence and abuse is okay. I would rather teach a child to find other more peaceful ways to resolve issues and get things accomplished.

But you still didn't answer the question... what were the thoughts running through your head? That would be my concern - how am I making this child feel? Why is it okay for a parent to do this to a child but not okay for a husband to his wife?

[Aquinas911]

Yes - compliant to rules and behaviors that make you healthy and successful. And it is NOT abuse, it is behavioral reinforcement. I for one am thankful for it.

To answer your question, the things that went through my head were of the ilk - "$*^% that hurt, I probably shouldnt do that again." And I didnt.

Again, five boys from parents who didnt graduate high school. All of us successful, college educated, and in healthy relationships. Odds of that happening randomly are not good.....

[naturemum]

Compliance can be much further-reaching than just to those factors you mentioned. Children often become compliant to peers once to power of influence begins to shift from the parents to peers/friends. This can lead to "unwanted" behaviour. Parents often wonder why their children were so "well-behaved" until they got to high school and then did a complete turn-around.

[naturemum]

People respond different to stimulus so while you and your brothers may have followed your parents wishes throughout your lives, other children who experience the same things often end up becoming compliant to "negative" peer influences.

[naturemum]

Whichever parenting method you choose, there is always the possibility that children will end up in bad situations. I would rather parent them without abusing them and have a real connection/bond with them to where they can come to me with anything. The chances of them coming to you with a problem is greatly higher and thus your influence is much further-reaching than just fear. The influence of fear doesn't last forever, but love and understanding tend to have a longer-lasting effect.

[naturemum]

And lastly, it is abuse because if a husband were to do that to his wife, it would be abuse. He can always argue that she was doing things that were going to get her into trouble and that it was only behavioral reinforcement; but the fact is, he is using his strength and power over her to control her and that, by definition, is abuse.

[Aquinas911]

No - it it NOT abuse because your analogy is flawed. It is not a husbands job to raise his wife and teach her the ways of the world and prepare her for society.

Similarly, my parents didnt use "their strength and power over me to control me." They used a bit of fear against performing bad and destructive behaviors, and it worked like a charm. Conversely, the "talking" method didnt work for many of my friends who did drugs every day in high school. They had no fear of punishment.

[naturemum]

It's not only about talking. You can be a conventional parent and do all the talking in the world - which is why I said you don't know much about this method of parenting. That's always a misconception - "my friends parents only talked to them, my friends did drugs". It's not about talking - it's so much more than that. You do realize that abusive husbands (and wives) were the ones that were raised with violence and punishment?

[naturemum]

And one could argue that a husbands job is to keep his wife in line. Even in our culture today, the way a wife acts reflects on the husband so does he now have an excuse to use punishment and violence the way parents use their role as an excuse for controlling their children? IMO, our job is to raise children who are (intrinsicly) self confident, analytical, resourceful, have realistic expectations of themselves, etc. That is how you prepare a child for the real world.

[naturemum]

And you're suggesting that the circumstances for using your power over someone to hurt them changes the definition of abuse?

[UnschoolingEagle]

Most children of abuse tend to think they "deserved" it or that is was their fault. The problem with spanking or corporal punishment is that society accepts this form of abuse. So people never learn that they were treated poorly. I used to think I "deserved" my spankings, but then i realized they just caused more problems.

[nameofthepen]

"Sorry I had to post again - somebody in my family decided it would be funny to erase all of my videos."

I hope you sent that naughty someone to their room. :D

Just kidding. GREAT video. Very true. I'm on my way to check out your channel. Thanks for posting. :)