Gipson's RV-10 with Geared Drives LS1 Engine Runup

[ckelley63]

Just think come overhaul time all you have to do is run down to your local chevy dealer and order your parts!!!

[keith8880]

Now if he really wants to go crazy get a procharger, cams, borla bullets exhaust, and a custom computer remap maybe a diablo tune you know. =]

[ZR1Terror]

So does it fly?

[Dominoes282]

I LOVE how it sounds like a turboprop. Not the engine but the prop.

[SpidMovie]

Don't get me wrong, I do love this engine (I drive a vette with an old LT1 engine). However, since it's not certified, what's your concerns about reliability? Any problem with?

[superskullmaster]

@SpidMovie How reliable was the liquid cooled P-51 Merlin engine? Or Rotax liquid cooled engines? Look how old that engine (Merlin) is/was and how reliable it is/was. Why should this be different just because Lycombing and Contenental will say anything to keep selling thier overpriced engines?

[MartySchrader]

1 7/8" headers with open dumps? Man, that thing must be loud! Pulls pretty hard, too, I bet.

[vinamais]

Hey Budd!!! I´ve been following your accoplishments and developments here from Brazil and I apreciate your readyness in answering questions to the guys on the net. All your answers and ideas simply make all the sense to me. By the way, couldn´t you post a video of this particular airplane flying? What is the status of the Bearhawk set up?

[gilly87S]

being that a RV-10 running a 260 has a stated rate of climb at 1950, I'm guessing your probably into around the 2500FPM range? Have you completed the build yet? what is the cost for an option like this? obviously taking into consideration a certified 540 can be had for around 18-24 depending on who ya know?

[geareddrives]

@gilly87S -This aircraft is completed and flying. Just made a trip from Houston to Oshkosh to the airshow and back in fine style. Climb rates are at 2500 and higher, depending on how hard you want to push. Engine packages complete are in the $32,500 range, add your prop and governor. Brand new modern technology and 40% better fuel burn than a Lycosauras.

[dragracingz28]

Well experimentals anyways.

[dragracingz28]

How does the weight of an LS1 compare to an IO-360? Too bad you can only put an auto engine on a homebuilt.

[geareddrives]

@dragracingz28 A little too much weight to replace a 360. This would be great for a replacement engine for a 6 cylinder certified

[probuiltlakecity]

What kind of heads are you running on this application? I was told that the engine needed 2 plugs per cylinder to use in a plane, was that incorrect?

[geareddrives]

Not so. Chevrolets do not ever foul spark plugs, also have small combustion chambers so combustion is more complete than in old style aircraft engines. We use stock LS1 heads, redundancy is achieved by eight seperate coils. One fails, still have seven more. There is no FAR requirement for two spark plugs per cylinder.

[davetileguy]

@probuiltlakecity what kind of heads??? can you not read it's an LS1 engine? what does that mean to you? do u have google? its a stock crate motor from chevy.

[probuiltlakecity]

@davetileguy Your a complete dumbass dude, do you know how many different types of heads are manufactured for the LS series of engines? Did you even read the freakin comment I made about the 2 spark plugs per cylinder? Oh and it says GEARED DRIVES so that throws your "its a stock crate motor" comment out the window, stock LS1's come with a timing chain fucko. Do everyone a favor and READ before you speak, you make other Tile guys look with your retarded ass responses!

[davetileguy]

@davetileguy Calm down there cheif,my point is just as "geardrives" told u,when you have a computer running the engine you don't need 2 plugs!As for geared drive PSRU. thats a unit that bolts on the front of an auto engine that has bigger bearings and is geared down to turn a prop slower than auto engines turn.As for "LS1 that is a specific spec,not vortech or LS3etc.now don't u feel silly?

[davetileguy]

@davetileguy Calm down there cheif,my point is just as "geardrives" told u,when you have a computer running the engine you don't need 2 plugs!As for geared drive PSRU. thats a unit that bolts on the front of an auto engine that has bigger bearings and is geared down to turn a prop slower than auto engines turn.As for "LS1 that is a specific spec,not vortech or LS3etc.now don't u feel silly?

[geareddrives]

@probuiltlakecity Two spark plugs are neede in aircraft engines since they lead foul so badly. Bottom plugs face upward and collect the lead. Auto engine plugs face downward and do not collect lead, and RARELY do they foul. Even so, if one did, there are seven other cylinders and plugs and the computer will smooth out the engine and you can still fly it to the ground for service.

[shawnmgarcia]

wow, an LS1 on a plane.. nice.

[3593893]

Um Bill, I think she wants to GO !!!!!

[jdhiner1]

master don't know what you are talking about automotive engines are actually less abused in aircraft than cars because they dont accel/decel so much

[Kneedragon1962]

Heat cycle is one issue, yes, but total cooling capacity and efficiency are others. Bottom line - mean time between failures. How do car engines (used in aviation applications) stack up against a Lycoming flat 6?

[flanksteak2]

I have no idea and I don't think you do either.

That is kind of my point.

Your concerns seem valid but it seems as they are addressed the way the engine is configured in the aircraft which means I think it would work just fine and be reliable.

[SeafangXVI]

the LS series underwent testing well beyond any FAA 150 hour check. the latest version suffered 500 hours at full throttle varying between full torque and full hp continiously. many car engines are capable of the conversion, unfortunately many of the converters are amateurs and not engine professionals and therefore the mistakes are theres and not the engines

[SeafangXVI]

heat cycling is an issue for turbines but has no real effect on pistonengines due to running well below the materials limits

[jacobneider]

What rpm do you cruise at and what is the gph?

[Mastercorder]

That engine will throw a rod at that rpm in the high thin air its certain to have major cylinder head problems what ever you do in that application dont use synthetic oil use the heavyset conventional oil you can , I think I would get rid of that entire set up , that things going to blow up in your face and if it still has the automotive fly wheel its going to explode and be right in your face I,ed sell thing for a couple thousand and forget it ! that thing is a mess and a dam joke ............

[Tramsootru]

Just curious, what altitude do you think an RV-10 is going to be cruising at?

[cobrala]

You know I half agree that the stock LS1 I would not feel comfortable with for extended heavy duty aircraft use although I have one that I run real hard and fast (In my Trans Am :) But I think automotive technology is the future of Aviation engines with lighter weight and computer fuel and ignition controls

[Kneedragon1962]

Lighter weight is good, as long as there is no reduction in the level of reliability we have become accustomed to. Modern electronic engine management is the future - yes! No argument from me on that score. There is (And has for a long time been) some dispute over whether an automotive engine turning 4,000 rpm and a reduction gear can ever match the reliability of an aircraft engine turning 2,000 rpm and direct drive, at the same power output.

[SeafangXVI]

One question to ask is " how many hours per year are you going to fly" if you get over a hundred hours per year then you are well above the norm. the other question to ask is what lycosaurus produces matching horsepower / fuel consumption / rebuild costs to the automotive good conversions - the answer is NONE. the major thing to consider in your arguement is that the lyco engines are of ancient design and poor efficiency / reliability so it's not a straight fight with a modern design

[Kneedragon1962]

Now don't be so suble and diplomatic there son, tell us what you really think.

For those who came late - there is a deep and longstanding predudice in aviation circles against the use of car engines in aeroplanes. In days of old there were many good reasons for this and it was completely justified.

The one remaining issue which is probably valid is cooling. An aeroengine is designed to deliver maximum power indefinately if need be, and 75% power as a matter of course. Car engines are not.

[Kneedragon1962]

There may be some exceptions to the cooling problems though. I don't know about cars but at Honda motorcycle division the final validation of any new production engine is 168 hours at redline, at 100% throttle. To succeed the engine must not only not fail, it must not run too hot, and when stripped down it must show no unusual wear or ill efects. Whether CAR manufacturers test like this I don't know, but if you're thinking of using a motor in a plane, I'd look into that.

[SeafangXVI]

the car manufactures run even harder tests as car engines are intended to carry more load for longer than bike engines. check with GM about their tests

[flanksteak2]

What about in Jet Boat use where the load is constant and you are at operating essentially at 3800 RPM, 90% load most of the time and the engines are capable of going 5000 plus hours?

[Kneedragon1962]

I'm sure there are parallels between automotive, aviation and jet-boat use of automotive engines. Forgive my drunken stupor, but at this moment I just can't see it. What is your question exactly?

A jet boat runs at peak performance for how long? 20 ~ 30 sec at a time? A jet-boat has access to an infinite supply of cool water. If a jet boat stops because of engine failure, everybody laughs and the next boat starts its run. When an aircraft engine stops people die.

What are you trying to say?

[flanksteak2]

Merlin engines are liquid-cooled and seem to do just fine.

I am talking recreational jet boats that are run at near full throttle for the duration of their life. They see 5000 + hours of reliable service without failure.

I don't think durability would be an issue with this setup and the cost savings just might make such a conversion worth a look.

[SeafangXVI]

your statements are quite correct, jet boats do run at very similiar revs and loads and a V8 is considered the preferred option. funny how each industry has it's own preferences regardless of succes or failures in other matching markets

[SeafangXVI]

aero engines are NOT designed to run at max continiously, not even close. please read FAA engine certification documents to verify what I am saying. keep a lycoming at flat out for long and it will spit the dummy big time!

[moparmanr3]

@SeafangXVI

That is NOT completely true. Yes there are aero engines that must be limited to full power operation for a set amount of time, the engine in the C-185 for example. But there are engine in other aircraft that can, will an must run at full power all day long and not care. This has to be done particularly at higher altitude with normally aspirated engines as manifold pressure decreases, in order to maintain manifold pressure.

[SeafangXVI]

if you run with the throttle wide open at 8500 feet you'll only get 21" which is about less than 3/4 max power on the ground. I maintain that these engines ( lycoming and continental 4 and 6 cyl's ) are not rated from continious max output. please study the engine data and the FAA data to verify what I am saying. facts not opinions should count here, not what we'd like things to be.

[moparmanr3]

@SeafangXVI As for efficiency, well generally the higher the RPM the lower the volumetric efficiency, the higher the wear rate, and the higher the fatigue. As for comparison between aero and auto engines, there is no comparison. How many Lycoming and Continentals are in aircraft VS. auto engines. When TBO is reached aero engines get overhauled, auto engines get replaced. I am quite sure that if an

[SeafangXVI]

a rebuild on a lycoming means complete new cylinder and piston kits plus many other extremely expensive items. you could buy multiple new LS v8's for the price of one lycoming rebuild. Again as suggested before get the data. ring a rebuild shop and ask for pricing - it will shock you.

[moparmanr3]

@SeafangXVI I will say one thing however, out of all the auto engines out there being used in aircraft the LS engine are by far the best. Sorry for the length...

[geareddrives]

With 300 HP at 4000 RPM at takeoff, we are applying 575 Ft Lbs of torque to the prop when run through the Geared Drives PSRU. As far as speed, this will always be limited by each airframe. We probably will achieve more speed with this FWF combination, but do not advocate for exceeding your aircraft's Vne. Climbout has been where the performance has excelled, inproving by two to three times. We will have actual performance data by the time we get to Sun n Fun in April 2009.

[JeanPernicia]

How much horsepower and torque did you get from this engine at that application? and which was the max speed that you will obtain fom the LS1?

[geareddrives]

In this aircraft we will use only about 325 HP max of an available 350 HP, and only at takeoff using 4000-4200 engine RPM. We will cruise in the area of 3000-3300 engine RPM and the prop RPMs are reduced by a reduction ratio of 1.67:1.00. Airspeed determined by airframe, we have to be careful not to exceed Vne.