Proverbs 8:22 and Christian commentaries according to JWs

[mkl62]

I am an ELCA Lutheran from South Carolina. Today (March 4), this was the basis for our Sunday School Lesson of the Day. It was entitled "Wisdom's Part in Creation."

[obed1g]

John 6:38- becuase i have come down come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.

[obed1g]

John 20:31- But these have been written down that you mya believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.

[CJayReidChitownActor]

Dear Jehovah's People

(Matthew 5:11-12) 11 "Happy are YOU when people reproach YOU and persecute YOU and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against YOU for my sake. 12 Rejoice and leap for joy, since YOUR reward is great in the heavens; for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to YOU. Do not Read anything that comes from false religion and apostosy

Claude

[MrKattt]

This is persecution? Please check out the past of your religion.

[Mekelsior]

Jake: you follow the arian, gnostic teachings of the nicolatians. The Bible states that God hates their teachings. (rev 2:6) You should investigate Origen and Arius, of whoom is the father of your doctrine.

[JAKEV25]

Mekelsior...I don't think you learned very much at the seminar. The JW's are a far cry from the Nicolatians. They divided the church up between the laity class and the clergy class.....Something that we don't do....Our elders are not even paid...and the whole congregation works in the preaching of God's coming Kingdom. Do you pay your pastors to preach for you Mekelsior?

[Mekelsior]

Jake: The nicolations, believed that Jesus Christ did not have a physical resurrection Jake. They believed that in heaven there were only spirits with no physical bodies. That is their teachings. It has nothing to do with paying preachers, as the levites themselves were payed for the service they did in the temple. Even the apostles were payed for what they did, by the tithe.

[JAKEV25]

3 forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth. 4 The reason for this is that every creation of God is fine, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is sanctified through God's word and prayer over [it].

[JAKEV25]

I am glad you showed up because I have an interesting scripture for you: 1Tim 4:1

However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, 2 by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron;

[MrKattt]

Sounds like the Watchtower.

[Mekelsior]

Jake: I have to agree with MrKattt here, that the verse more or less describes the watctower. I even came over this article called "Angels and Women" was a book that was dictated by a demon, that the watchtower said was good reading. In it was a description of the belief that the fallen angels no longer can manifest, or materialize since after the flood. I belive that is a very dangerous teaching, as the bible clearly teach that "..even lucifer transforms himself into an angel of light."

[fairwhether1]

"But you follow the doctrines of greek mythology"

Jake, I believe that studying scripture alone is enough. I did not come to believe the trinity by reading books on the subject or doing research. I humbled myself before God, told Him honestly that I did not know, & asked Him to help me understand His truth, whatever it was and in His own time. He did one day while I was doing my daily Bible study. Things made sense, and I have no doubts. May God bless you as you seek after Him as well :)

[JAKEV25]

Pray to Jehovah, Fair in the name of His Son Christ Jesus.....He will touch your heart.

[fairwhether1]

"He will touch your heart."

Thank you, Jake. He already has, and continues to do so every day :)

[JAKEV25]

Kitty....Your comments on Isaiah 52:13?

13 Behold, my servant shall deal wisely, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high.

Is Jesus God's Servant kitty?

[JAKEV25]

The same of Isaiah 53:11 He shall see the labor of His soul,[b]and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.

Who is this Servant Katt?

[MrKattt]

Same as in the New Testament; Jesus is the servant.

Phil 2:5-8 - Jesus who was in the FORM of God became in the FORM of a servant, just like us, even to death on the cross.

Jesus was both God and man. Do you have trouble with your memory?

[JAKEV25]

1 ---Or je vais envoyer mon messager pour aplanir la route devant moi[a]. Et, soudain, il viendra pour entrer dans son Temple, le Seigneur que vous attendez; c'est L'ANGE de l'alliance, appelé de vos *vœux. Le voici, il arrive, déclare l'Eternel, le Seigneur des *armées célestes. La Bible du Semeur

[MrKattt]

I think I'm going to start removing some insane comments. It's time for a clean up of comments!

[JAKEV25]

Naturally because the KJV is such a trinitarian Hoax you wouldn't want to see how other bibles translate would you?

[JAKEV25]

Are both the messengers John the Baptist Katt......Just be truthful. That's all I ask.

[MrKattt]

What's your point? John the baptist is the one sent before Jesus.

Jesus is the messenger of the New covenant.

Are you going to use this to say that a messenger is an angel, so Jesus is an angel?

Was John the baptist an angel also?

If I get a job as a messenger, am I an angel?

Wheren't there human messengers in the Bible besides John the baptist? Where they angels also? Give me a break!

[JAKEV25]

well let's look at some other bible translations.....

Douay-Rheims Version

Behold I send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before my face. And presently the Lord, whom you seek, and the angel of the testament, whom you desire, shall come to his temple. Behold he cometh, saith the Lord of hosts.

[JAKEV25]

Darby Bible

Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me; and the Lord whom ye seek will suddenly come to his temple, and the Angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he cometh, saith Jehovah of hosts.

[MrKattt]

WOW! Suddenly you believe in the Bibles of Christendom. Your own Wt, New world translation doesn't even call Jesus an "angel" in Mal 3:1.

You are a tricky devil, Jake! Now you contradict your mother, the Watchtower?

Jesus is not an angel. The Watchtower is born out of the occult and I do not believe in comming to "Jehovah's organization for salvation"

You see, I believe the Bible which says to come to Jesus for salvation. Act 4:12

[JAKEV25]

Katt ...Can you explain why Jesus referrs to Himself as the bright and morning star in Rev 22?

Aren't angels...created spirit beings referred to as morning stars?

[Mekelsior]

1 thes 4:16," For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first "

It is obvious that God can take on the form of Man and the form of Angels, this is what God have done and will always do. You should take a look at Genesis 18, where Jehova approach Abraham face to face, and actualy eats with him. Most facinating text to be honest.

[JAKEV25]

4 Who has ascended to heaven that he may descend? Who has gathered the wind in the hollow of both hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in a mantle? Who has made all the ends of the earth to rise? What is his name and what the name of his son, in case you know?

[fairwhether1]

"Aren't angels...created spirit beings referred to as morning stars?"

Jake, references please :)

[MrKattt]

I hope you won't come with something strange. The one who was sent to prepare the way to Jesus is John the baptist

[MrKattt]

You people are good at avoiding the Wt fallacies when you're stuck.

The NT says ZERO times "Jehovah".

The NT says ZERO times that Jesus is Michael the archangel.

Jesus is both man and God -

Jesus God :

Jn 1:1 - Jn 8:58 - Jn 20:28 - Rom 9:5 - 2 Cor 2:19 - Col 2:9 - Tit 2:13 - Heb 1:8 - 1 Jn 5:20

[JAKEV25]

Kitty....please comment on Malachi 3:1

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Who is the messenger of the covenant in this scripture?

[MrKattt]

Even your NWT say Jesus is God directly in 2 places and indirectly in many places.

Let's see, the NT says ZERO times "Jehovah".

The NT says ZERO times that Jesus is Michael the archangel.

[JAKEV25]

Whether Jesus is ALSO Michael is a mute point...Jesus is firstmost the Son of God....and there are no scriptures in the bible that say Jesus is God the Son kitty. And your greek philosophy and interpretation is unimportant to God.

[fairwhether1]

Jake, who Jesus is is not a mute point. You agree with scripture, that there will be *false* Christs, don't you? We *have* to be sure that we are following the *true* Christ of scripture!

And also, there are no scriptures in the Bible that say that Jesus is Michael the Archangel either...

[MrKattt]

Please Jake, don't talk about lies when your in the Watchtower lie. If the Trinity (your favorite subject) is such a lie, why does the Wt need to quote authors out of context to prove it? "Should you believe in the Trinity" is full of out of context quotes. Your definition of Jesus a god is a lie.

[fairwhether1]

Jake, I was just reading & came across an interesting scripture: Heb. 7:3. Although it is speaking of Melchizedek, it is comparing him with the Son of God. What are your thoughts on this?

"In being fatherless, motherless, without genealogy, having neither a beginning of days nor an end of life, but having been made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually." (New World Translation)

[JAKEV25]

Paul in writing to the Hebrews is very explicit that Christ as the high priest of God, ordained to offer greater sacrifices than those offered by the Aaronic priesthood, was pictured by Melchizedek. Melchizedek's name and the name of his kingdom were significant, and the fact that there was no record of his beginning or ending made him "like no one but the Son of God" who continues as priest forever.

[fairwhether1]

"and the fact that there was no record of his beginning or ending made him "like no one but the Son of God" who continues as priest forever."

No *beginning* or end makes him like the Son of God?

[JAKEV25]

But we do know that Melchizedek did have a begining and an ending don't we? Christ had a begining...but will never have an ending...He is now immortal.

[MrKattt]

Jake you would be a good politician. You managed to avoid the subject. This is precisely the point. Melchizeded has a begining, so when it says that he had NO beginning it is speaking of Jesus who has NO beginning.

[fairwhether1]

"But we do know that Melchizedek did have a begining and an ending don't we? Christ had a begining...but will never have an ending...He is now immortal"

The verse says that Melchizedek was made to be like the Son of God, not the other way around. And in that, it says "having neither a beginning of days nor an end of life". :)

[JAKEV25]

Fair I can not help you understand the bible....the meaning of this scripture is to show the Christ is the greater Melchizedek...that's all...nothing more. Christ's kingdom will last forever.

I am not trying to convert you Fair....but you really need to study the biblical implications and historical truths about the false trinity doctrine. That's all I ask.

[fairwhether1]

"but you really need to study the biblical implications and historical truths about the false trinity doctrine. That's all I ask."

Isn't studying scripture alone enough?

[JAKEV25]

Fair I am not trying to convert you to be a JW...that's not my Job...that's something between you and God.....What I am trying to show you is that there is One sovereign God of the universe...Yahweh...Jehovah...­..and He gave His only begotten Son as a ransom sacrifice. Our God is the God of the Jews...Jesus was a Jew. He loved His Father more than anything....He spent hours in prayer with His Father. He never claimed to be God....He never asked anyone to pray to him. Follow the Christ!

[Mekelsior]

Hebrew 7:3 "Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually."

Christ does not have an earthly father or mother, nor does He have a beginning nor an end.

[JAKEV25]

Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant, whom ye desire, behold, he cometh, saith Jehovah of hosts. American Standard version Malachi 3:1

[JAKEV25]

Now let's look at the same scripture in the Darby version....

Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me; and the Lord whom ye seek will suddenly come to his temple, and the Angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he cometh, saith Jehovah of hosts.

Who is the Angel/Messenger of the covenant?

[MrKattt]

Jake you would be a good politician. You managed to avoid the subject. This is precisely the point. Melchizeded has a begining, so when it says that he had NO beginning it is speaking of Jesus who has NO beginning.

[fairwhether1]

Jake, you realize you still haven't answered my question, ;) But oh well. So here is a new one. Are you saying that 'firstborn' *has* to mean the same as 'only-begotten'? In all instances? Why or why not?

[fairwhether1]

Thank you, Jake. I do not deny that there is a Father/Son relationship in regards to the Father and Jesus :) However my question was, what are your thoughts on what MrKatt said regarding David & Ephraim & the term 'firstborn'?

[JAKEV25]

Funny....if you cannot see that it is Jesus who is being personified as wisdom Katt....from all the other scriptural evidence that is available, you truly need some Katt Eyes. Read your Bible. And of course all those commentaries want Jesus to be God...they are all written by trinitarians...what do you expect?

[MrKattt]

Hey! Good to see you're still alive Jake. Welcome back to our posts!

Like the conclusion says: Wisdom was never created or God would have been without wisdom in the beginning! So if Wisdom IS Jesus, then Jesus was always there!

[fairwhether1]

Good points, Mr. Katt! Keep up the good work!

[laffy4christ]

Read all of Chapter 8 in Proverbs. U will see that WISDOM is referred 2 as a WOMAN in the passage. It's obvious that it is WISDOM that is being personfied- NOT JESUS- in Prov.8:22. Do U know what personification means? "to think of or represent as a person". Why would Jesus need 2B personified. He was a person! The WS has taken this out of context 2 support their view that Jesus was created - demoting Him 2 a lesser god & believing in 2 gods. Why would God create a god anyway?!(John 1:1 NWT)

[JAKEV25]

Laffy....give it up...Jesus is not wisdom...wisdom is not a person. Jesus is personified as wisdom....Wisdom personified.....even christendom agrees with this chapter and verse depicting Jesus personified as wisdom.

[quoito]

And like wisdom, Jesus was eternaly with God; never created!