Actually you got it right, Michael Keaton's real last name is Douglas. I disagree with some of your points, but I understand that you really enjoy origin stories told in detail. I too thought Nicholson deserved at least a nomination but at that time there was no way the Academy would give any recognition to a movie like that for any of the major awards.
True Spider-Man 2002 did well at telling the origin story, although it's going to be explored into greater detail and differently in the reboot The Amazing Spider-Man 2012
Could use a little more Two-Face? Yea me as well. Check out this interesting Two-Face fan film on my page. Do you believe in Harvey Dent?! You will after you see this.
@mykebulvai Thank you. Pulling yet another ad hominem attack out of your ass to cater to your case and acting like it's a fact. You are the one who deserves to be congratulated.
@ToddSGallows . eeeahhha - and this is coming from a little chap who couldn't resist but to reply to my initial comment. Let me guess, vaguely insulted? Slight annoyed by my little comment? I hit a soft spot didn't I? something that's part of you or someone close to you? You my little chap, capitalise the word loser with a capital L. Congratulations. Fanboy.
@mykebulvai Nope. If that were the case, I would have ignored you and attacked the author of the video. I was just amused by your horrendous sense of logic, and by how confidently you spew erroneous facts. You also seem to feel empowered by lobbing ad hominem attacks. No soft spot was hit. I am not devoted to Tim Burton, and he doesn't even know I exist. I like about 4 movies of his filmography. I sense some projection from your end though. But hey, keep doing what you do. It speaks volumes.
i couldnt help but laugh at you and your voice and everything during so keep it up man prolly have nothin better to do besides jack it on youtube and or youjizz.com
who are you? just curious. the point is that everyone understands what the Batman is, plain and simple cheif, he's a crime fighting super hero everyone who bought a ticket understood that and the opening shot should have the Batman kickin some ass and the first plot point is usually discovered around 15 minutes into the film. idk why i decided to argue this im not a "fanboy" at all i just dont think you can talk so much if you dont have higher education of film and its history peace out fag boy
I liked batman begins too but there was just one problem. For me the action was bad. The camera just shaking all the time and it was hard to see what is happening. But otherwise best batman movie.
NEW BATMAN SUCKS MAJOR ASS...LONG,WINDED,OVER HYPED,BADLY ACTED,THIN PLOT,USELESS CHARACTERS, NO SENSE OF HUMOR,TERRIBLE COSTUME AND SET DESIGN WITHOUT IMAGINATION AND 3 HOURS TOO FUCKING LONG!!!
Wow, it's weird to hear "Batman" and "fanboys" in the same sentence, lol. Not sure why, guess I just never thought of Batman as a fanboy-ish type media. Loved the rant, Arch :) I never thought of any of those movies that way until you made the comparisons, with the backstory and character development. Totally agree on Spiderman and Superman. I like Batman Returns, but not so much the first of Burton's. Begins and The Dark Knight are my favorites, though.
at the end i laughed my ass off , cuz its true that in almost every holllywood movie The Black guy dies first or dies in the most RIDICULOUS way possible, an most people deny it but its in fact true go look at any movie you will see the trend lol
i think in 1989, batman was iconic enough not to have all the back story. i actually didn't like how nolan's batman had that much back story. i thought it was too much. i think in 89, you're just supposed to accept that batman is rich as hell, so he can just buy all his techy stuff.
anyway... respect your opinion. they make movies for entertainment, and if you were entertained, then it did its job.
1989 batman movie by tim burton,,, was a more Mysterious batman,, the way the character of batman was and even the villian of the joker, their was much more of a mysterious element to the characters in the burton films,, batman was much more like a shadow,, a stone figure,, he didnt talk much, & u couldnt quit figure him out, like a myth, the dark mysterious tone of batman that tim burton did, is alot like the comics and the 90's animated series, & somthing the Nolan films are missing in batman
right at the start when he said the batman begins remake is the best one i laughed my ass off like u serous i could mak a better one, tim burton did the best baman movies
@LBJordan1 Yeah, because Burtons movies were inteligent, had characters with valid motivation, were truthful to the comics, plot made sence, and Batman definetly didnt have higher bodycount than the Joker-
@LBJordan1 Ever heard of sarcasm? Nolans movies are great, Burtons Baman is good movie, but it fails epicly as a Batman movie and Returns sucked as both.
@LBJordan1 Its funny, that you are keep telling me, how good they are, yet I gave you valid and logical reasons why they are terrbile, and you havent writen ONE SINGLE ARGUMENT why do you think, that they are good.
@Ikarosus i could write down tons but i have a life so ill just say well he keeps things to what batman is supose to be and has a batman who is actually good just everything is good but every one has there own thoughts so no matter what ppl say i wont care what u think if u say tim didnt do good cause i know the trueth
@LBJordan1 In other words you are just an idiot, who dont have any idea what hes talking about. I can understand that you like them, but they are definetly not better than the new ones.
@LBJordan1 You have a life, so you will not write anything constructive, yet you have enough time to write that you have a life, and that I am wrong. Yeah, that makes total sence (sarcasm).
@Ikarosus ok well i dont give a shit everyone has there on comments and favorites and u nver said anyting constructive either so there and ur sarcasm needs work
@LBJordan1 "Yeah, because Burtons movies were inteligent, had characters with valid motivation, were truthful to the comics, plot made sence, and Batman definetly didnt have higher bodycount than the Joker-
We are doing a stop motion animation film called Tim. The movie is a stop motion animation film that is dedicated to Tim Burton and has Sir Christopher Lee as the narrator. Search the directors name Brian Joseph Ochab to find the video.
Hmm. You had an intresting point of view. First of all i must say to your last complain about the black guy kicking ass. Well, Joker shot Batwing out of the sky. Batman was hurt. That's why the black guy was kicking ass on that fight.
Burton wanted batman to be mysterious in the 89 film. That's why he didn't explain that much of the batman; He wanted that the viewers think batman is really mysterious charachter, which he is of course.
Sorry if my english is bad, it's not my nativelangue.
thats why Tim Burton was cool, because he focus on Batman and the villains u.u anyway, Nolan took a lot of elements from Buton's movies just watch my video:
I agree the Batman begins was better than past ones, but it was HELL boring. 2 batman movies made by Christopher Nolan made me a fan of his. but Tim Burton? I don't know if it's just me but I NEVER like his movies. Not a single one made sense to why he's such a popular director. Maybe he's using some kind of hidden symbols or messages that I don't understand?
@Nixom1334 sorry I've never watched that movie. If it's like Alice in wonderland, I probably wouldn't even look at it. I'm not saying he's a bad director, but just not my "type"
@LostFaithChoi it's stop motion animation. it's about beings from a halloween that accidentally find a christmas world. then they decide to give santa a break and do christmas themselves. but because they're monsters they do it all dark and scary. it's mostly for little kids but it's a classic. i haven't seen alice in wonderland so i couldn't compare them
@TheArchfiend Chris Nolan made a good batman movie but i really think he should have made the action scenes way better than they should have been because in begins and dark knight the action scenes expecially the fighting scenes are too close up and done awful. Look at a good action movie say Enter the Dragon those are some of the best fighting scenes i'd ever saw.
No. you are wrong. Watch the first god damn 2 minutes of Tim Burton's Batman. No one is talking about the shitty Bat Credit card joke from Batman and Robin. We are talking about the "Don't leave home without it" American Express joke in the beginning of Tim Burton's Batman. I spelled it out CRYSTAL CLEAR and idiots like you are still not getting it right. Again, WATCH THE MOVIE BATMAN AGAIN TO SEE IT.
Follow along properly or don't offer your comments about who is wrong.
I don't like Tim Burton myself. Though I did enjoy all the Batman movies. But Burton wants to do everything HIS way. Not the way it should be. He even made Alice in Wonderland too dark and evil.
I grew up with the one's with tim burton plus "forever" but im not gonna go piss on this video because YOU ARE RIGHT! the tim burton one's focused WAY TOO MUCH on the damn villains! as a kid growing up i always wondered how the hell did bruce become batman?! i didnt see batman begins until recently but DAMN batman begins was definatly a breath of fresh air!
Tim Burton just directed it. Shouldn't the person who wrote the film get the blame or the credit? Directors are always held accountable for what happens in a movie. Most of the time, they don't deserve any credit or blame.
Dude i agree that batman begins is better but (now dont take this negatively) but im ashamed to be on your side because you seem like you dont know too much about batman.
Which is okay....You've only seen the movies and hevent read the comics or seen the animated series.
The problem is that your defending the right thing but doing it in a wrong way.
Your response is good though but maybe for next time use some research for your next response
@TheArchfiend Uhhh I care to disagree. Batman was pretty popular before that and superhero film weren't exactly the major blockbusters back in the day.
Peope who went to see Batman begins however grew up watching Batman as kids and the ones who were kids have video games and such to tell them the origin.
About ur video,When i say you're defenidn it wrong i mean the content of the film as well as its context. Its not a beginning| middle| end thing. Nolans stroy is much more complex.RanOUTofSPACE
Seriously dude. You act as if there is this large populace that read comic books and watched the cartoons when they aired. In the grand scheme it represent a VERY SMALL portion of the actual movie goer. You are being a bit fanboyish to Batman to act otherwise.
@TheArchfiend reg619 dont waste your time this douchebag doesnt listen to polite reasoning. You cant exactly teach a dog how to speak so please allow me to bitch-slap him.
I gotta go do some research now. I will go back and read every comic book of Batman and watch everything single cartoon and show so that I can have a talk about this and have any legitimacy.
@TheArchfiend Whoa! A little too strong of a reaction. Although he probably is a chode. By the way, wasn't the credit card joke from the Batman and Robin movie?
Actually, Tim Burton wasn't even chosen as the 1st draft completed. Writer Sam Hamm and the producers decided that the origin story would be too slow so they opted for Joker’s. They took BatMan back to his roots. The first panel of his appearance in DC 27 explodes onto screen. BatMan is similar to Watchmen where they had an origin tale, but more opted for a novel adaptation approach. BatMan paved the way for those types of comic adaptations as it shown the original source is good enough.
Biggest issue is that the two batman series happen in differant comic universe. Batman comics have mostly focused on the villians and less on the personailty of Batman. I agree with you on teh explaining who Batman is.
@FireFistShikamaru Burton's Batman is faithful to the very early Batman. If you gonna look at the Batman comics as a holy scripture and anything that makes changes is wrong then there is no point watching a movie. What happens to Batman in the movie is as much valid as in the comics, And if you count validity by the general public, then the movies are telling Batman stories to the masses. Comics haven't done that since the war (when Superman outsold Time magazine).
@KillaMax113 The early Batman is not Batman. It takes years and years of changes until a character is perfected in the comics. When Batman killed in the comics for the very early years, his character wasn't fully perfected and finished yet. So the early comics are not an excuse for him killing. Plus, he only killed for a few issues in the early comics. After that, he decided killing was wrong so he stopped. This means that if Burton wanted to stay true to the early comics, he should have.....
At least here it was heroic and mostly accidental. Odd as I never sensed him as a killer in the films and now due to error on the new comics batman character. As AVGN said, he did it all the time in the old comics, even Miller's work had one or two questionable moments, like burning a cop only for a destraction or an even similar to Returns with the clown with Salena at gun point.
Oh, and a differently dressed law enforcer that is trusted by cops isn't realy vigilante.
@silenceofthehills I already explained why his first year does not count. By the logic of Batman being allowed to kill because he did it in the early comics, that's like saying that I could make a Superman movie where Superman kills, cannot fly, is intestructible, the planet from where he came from is never specified, and he fights a woman (all these things happened in the old comics). And if I make this Superman movie, nobody is allowed to complain.
Oh, why doesn't it count elitist. You guys never get it. They wanted to take him back to his darker routes. So be it. At least he doesn't use guns and all that. The new BatMan is less vigilante again, to think about it, so give BatMan's history some credit.
Its not the same issue anyhow... as its bull that you elites make out as not to his character at all from any comic or era, then you go in saying those don't matter when it does come from somehting.
@silenceofthehills It is not a mix of the golden age comics and the modern comics (old and new). None of the characters pull anything from the modern age nor do they pull anything from the Golden Age. Bruce Wayne is never that emotionally depressed in both ages. Commissioner Gordon is nowhere near being that stupid in both ages. Vicki Vale is a lot more intelligent in both the golden age and the modern age and also doesn't scream as much.
@silenceofthehills And although the Joker looks like his golden age counterpart, his character and personality is nothing like the Golden Age Joker. In the golden age, the Joker was just an insane serial killer wearing facepaint that just pops out of nowhere and starts terrorizing people. Jack's Joker is more of a gentleman mob boss instead. And he isn't like the modern age Joker either. Jack's Joker is more like the Bronze Age Joker.
I know this, the Joker of the film is based on the Steve Englehart Joker, which is the basis used in The Killing Joke also. This is the character that pulls out gags and sings a little carnival show tune in light of murdering people. The film Joker is a mix of this and maybe the Joker in the 60's show.
@silenceofthehills If they were aiming for a mixed adaptation of both the golden age and modern age comics, then the characters would have pulled from both counterparts. But with the exception of Batman killing people in Burton's films just like in the Golden Age comics, there isn't any other character that are in character with the Golden Age characters (nor are they in character with the modern age characters).
@silenceofthehills If Burton didn't have a lot of involvement in those films, then I blame whoever is the most responsible for them.
The link you gave me could be argued. Some of those images only PARTLY resemble each other. And the ones that do resemble each other very well have been used in the Silver Age, Bronze Age, and Modern Age as well (An example would be the "Bang" image. The Joker used it in every single era). Other images could be adapted by flicking through the pages.
Blame them for what though is the quesiton? If you are personally dissapointed, then so be it. Its not the same as being a bastarization.
As for the link, not many people I show that to get the link. Yes there are questionable things, but don't tell me they flipped through the pages just because of something you didn't like. There are too many lagit usages of comics versus their own adding and ordering within the story. WE KNOW they officially used and had the issues.
@silenceofthehills I wouldn't go as far as saying that it is a bastardization because Batman '89 is a good movie if you don't look at it as a Batman adaptation and you just look at it as just a regular movie. But it is a poor adaptation.
Other pages have existed in the Silver Age and Modern Age as well. And some of them are popular to even the people who do not read comics.
@silenceofthehills Jack's Joker is based on the Bronze Age Joker. In the Bronze Age, the Joker was the exact same campy clown that he was in the Silver Age and the 60's show except that now he killed people and robbed banks.
Steve Englehart was writing Batman during the Bronze Age. The Killing Joke Joker is different. It is the first portrayal of the Modern Age Joker within comics. And from that point on, the Joker has always been portrayed as the complete psychopath he is in The Killing Joke.
Also, don't tell me because your wanted look with traditionalization that TKJ didn't just push it farther and the book can show more then in the day, that this Joker is not phychopathic and just ol gay campy, yet TKJ Joker pulls out gags and sings a show tune.
Oh the fanboys that think that TKJ joker is NOT the same with less censorship and Alan Moore behind the helm for a nice story.
@silenceofthehills There were 3 reasons why Batman stopped using his gun:
1) censorship.
2) Too much like the Shadow. DC #27 itself was based on the Shadow's first appearance.
3) A lot of fans back then disliked his gun due to his parents being taken away from him by a gun.
He pulls ONE gag throughout the entire book. The Joker does occasionally pull gags even in the modern stuff. And he danced to drive Commissioner Gordon insane (not like in the museum scene, where he danced for fun).
Well I never liked it either. If you mean ONE gag through TKJ, you are a lier. He used a hand shake gag, then something at the end of his cane with acid or something, and lastly a bang gun esque "click click click" gun. About 3-4 gags in one comic.
I know the Jack Joker is a tad different, I'm not comparing, still, the idea is similar. Black Comedy and Joker's weird vien. Destroying priceless art like its nothing isn't as vile, but it wasn't his A list plan in the film.
@silenceofthehills On top of that, TKJ Joker did one of the most traumatizing moments in all of Batman comics (and very traumatizing in real life too if it happened). If you've read the book, I'm pretty sure you know what he did. There wasn't a lot of censorship behind TKJ.
No adaptation has to be direct; they just need to get the basics of the characters right.
I already explained why Burton's films are not close to the old comics at all. Even if you were to argue that the producers of the movie (notice how I didn't say Burton now) wanted to take Batman to his old roots, then it fails as an adaptation of the old comics too because none of the other characters are in character with their golden age counterparts (I already explained why the others are not in character).
Never said that. Again, its the character of the older BatMan and what he would do, but they put him through modern stuff, like the older gagless Joker runs around with a batman more of the modern era. Also, people have nerv to talk about the character of these characters. They'd be better off just saying "there they are on screen, yippe".
Why? The story DOES contain what they do, say and think. Alot of this is invisible so story is more important
@silenceofthehills If they were to adapt a direct adaptation of the Golden Age comics where ALL of the characters are in character with their Golden Age counterparts, then fine. But this is not the case here.
I'll explain it in simpler words:
As an adaptation of the Golden Age comics , Batman '89 and Batman Returns fail.
As an adaptation of the Modern Age comics, Batman '89 and Batman Returns fail even more.
Why does it even need to be direct? In a real general standpoint, it counts.
I guess TDK is a horrid adaption because they merged the older gagless joker who steels together with the new chaos and mayhem Joker who has no real purpose but that itself, along with his conflict he makes with batman I suppose.
I guess your right then, it is bad as a direct, to the letter adaption, but it wasn't meant to be.
@silenceofthehills It is different with TDK Joker. Most of the crimes and events caused by the TDK Joker are taken from the modern stuff. Even his way of thinking and mind set are from the modern comics. The elements borrowed from the Golden Age are only homages (such as the facepaint and the scene where he removes his makeup to disguise as a police officer). There is a difference between an adaptation of a character and a homage to a character.
Burton's Batman just kills; that is all. There is nothing Golden Age about it besides that. Also, Batman was ALREADY dark in the comics before the 1989 film was released. They didn't have to take him back to his old routes to make him dark for the movie because he has already been dark for a few years before the release of Batman '89. So if they wanted to introduce the true dark Batman to the silver screen, all they had to do was adapt the modern comics.
The fact that Batman doesn't kill DOES matter. Just because he killed in his first year of publication doesn't mean that someone can make an adaptation where he kills and then says "He could kill as much as he wants because he did it in the old comics". The only acceptable reasons are the 2 reasons that I posted yesterday (and once again, none of them were the case with '89).
But the fact that its in a comic and based on another era in a sense DOES matter.
As for the rest, now your getting silly and blind as noone is saying any of this, and, BatMan89 does fall into that. I guess no one cares about what I just said, in how they take locations and events into acount, even in returns that used 28's first story in a way, a prelude to pengiun. Both frame BatMan in their first story.
Modern Age Batman is JUST as dark as Golden Age Batman. The only difference between them is that Golden Age Batman kills criminals while Modern Age Batman doesn't. However, they both beat criminals to a pulp and both intimidate them the same way.
I can agree, but their mindframe was to replicate the older issues in a sense as well. They even have the first and second appearances of the siuted BatMan in the same general way, only they made this person Joker, fitting how its the same story. Likely they were inspired to use what was in 27's first story for joker's origins latter on in the comics and this then fits conjoining the two stories of the shoot up and other from 27 into the film.
@silenceofthehills The Joker's acid bath origin was introduced in the comics before the release of Batman '89. Thus, they got the origin from the comics and not from Detective Comics #27. That is a perfect example of when I said that some of those images to the links you sent me existed in other parts of the comics besides the early issues. And the Joker's origin is not based on the accidental death of the guy in #27. The Joker originally had facepaint and the acid bath origin was added later.
As of now, your beginning to go incoherent with my comments. Firstly why did you even get from my comment, that I said Joker had this origin from square one? In fact they never reveal if its actually just face paint or anything in the oldest of issues.
Stuff happening in newer issues too...yeah, but didn't they have these issues and if those events happen first here? Don't you know what that means...
@silenceofthehills You told me that Jack's Joker's origin was inspired by the death of the criminal that falls into acid in Detective Comics #27. And that is not true because the Joker had a similar origin to that that was introduced in 1951. I was also saying how the Joker's acid bath origin had nothing to do with DC #27 because it came out in the Silver Age. So Jack's Joker's origin had nothing to do with DC #27.
No, to put it clear, it was not Jack's Joker's origin alone. They just incorperated some of 27 into the film because its similar to Joker's origin. Look at how BatMan's second ever appearance in the film is here, it is here too in 27 comic.
I just said that 27 likely was incorperated into Joker's origin in the comics, the red hood story, because it was quite similar. I wouldn't know for sure unless an interview says they were inspired by 27 to make his origin.
@silenceofthehills It was the Joker's origin alone. There was even an origin for the Joker in the comics where he was a mob boss. As for Batman's second appearance, that is one of the generic pics that I was describing. And he made a similar appearance in the Joker's origin (from the rooftop of the chemical factory).
The Joker's acid bath origin was far different than the 27 comic. The 27 comic involved a random killer. The Joker's acid bath origin involved an entire mob scheme.
Last comments. I want to make are about the origins. Yes I know about the origins as a whole and you say he emerges from the roof. I know it was different, it always will, but alot of the event stands the same. From coming in from the roof to other. Its certain they are paying ode to that comic with the origin. Again, I know the plot is different. I think you imply they could get that from the new, but i'm saying its likely both are used for reference as they had 27-37.
@silenceofthehills In one of the Joker's Golden Age appearances, it was stated that he was able to remove his facepaint and disguise as a police officer.
Those stuff happening in both old and new issues have been repeating themselves for as long as Batman existed. And you're trying to prove that Burton's film stay true to the Golden Age comics by listing facts that can be found ANYWHERE in the Batman comics at any era.
I know, I read it, not the point. Also I don't think it says that he had removed any make up. They don't say, but in the day you'd assume this. It's like Wolverines claws being made natural after being thought to have been not I suppose. I may need to read it again, but still, had nothing to do with it.
That last words here are the same. They could have gotten it anywhere, why would it matter. STILL, they in record used those ones.
@silenceofthehills He did remove his facepaint to disguise as a police officer in the early issues. And in the early issues, he was also more of a serial killer who disguised as the Joker (card) to commit crimes (this was stated in the dialogues). And the acid bath origin did not exist until 1951. When the Joker was first created, he was based off a character from a movie called The Man Who Laughs.
Those panels have been known to the general public (not just comic book fans) since always.
@silenceofthehills It still confuses me why they would an origin for the Joker in Batman '89 because the Joker doesn't have an origin in the Golden Age nor does he have an origin in the Modern Age. The Joker's acid bath origin was first introduced in the Silver Age and was eliminated from continuity in the Modern Age.
I still doubt that they were trying to replicate the Golden Age comics. I doubt anyone is stupid enough to adapt panels and not stay true to the characters.
@silenceofthehills Everyone knows that adapting a character matters more than adapting panels when making a film adaptation of a comic. This is just common sense. That's why I doubt they were trying to adapt the Golden Age comics.
And the fact that it is nothing like the the era that it is supposed to be based on in a sense DOES matter.
Both of them framing Batman does not mean that is it based off #28. By that logic, every single Batman story where Batman is framed was inspired by #28.
I guess if its like a new story that fits with in like a new issue, but if it isn't, they still should screw the story over and Sin City panel recreation is great and counts to consistancy.
So now its back THEIR NOT EVEN TRYING TO?
Nothing like the era, what do you expect? Big franken monsters? Its not meant to be perfectly the era.
I know as they HAD those issue physically on 28, he's blaimed by missonception by police on top a roof. Same, but new elements.
@silenceofthehills Yes, Sin City panel recreation is great. But character would matter too.
Well, it doesn't feel as if it takes place in the pulp inspired 1930s look. It has more of a modern gothic feel to it. Also, first you were saying they are trying to adapt the era and now you're saying that they are not. And the era doesn't have to be perfect; only the basics of it.
I'll answer the rest later; I have some personal work I have to do now.
Ugh, the character is in the bag, the story. I'm sorry but your getting it all wrong here once again as well, so don't put words in my mouth. All I remember saying is that BatMan, like Joker in TDK is a mixture of the two eras, based upon the older sources, maybe some of the new for revisions sake, so its not too much the older era. Also, you said only the basics matter, well, that was kinda the point. It was what they were geared at, alot they didn't want.
@silenceofthehills There is only 1 difference between Golden Age Batman and Modern Age Batman (which is that one of them doesn't kill). So it is not much of a mixture here.
TDK Joker's mentality and mind set is closer to his modern counterpart than his Golden Age counterpart. And the basics of the CHARACTERS do matter. And no other character in Batman '89 is how they were in both the old and new comics (except for the part of Batman killing).
My last last comment, I hope. Explaining myself on the comment about Joker and TDK. I understand this too. His character was more for mayhem versus the ditched robbery. The old stuff is more the lack of gags and alot of events out of the old no.1, like getting out of jail and the roof top scenario. They did that perfectly, 89 used the lighthouse scene for inspiration instead. I weigh character too. Also, maybe the important basics are there, just with other thrown on top.
Look, I don't even want you to "answer" anything anymore. No point and were flooding Archfiend's channel.
Remember that this is a massively multi issue comic/graphic novel adaptation and not a single comic/graphic novel adaptation. There is too much to go on for the length of the film and in these, many mixed eras and sources come into play. Nolan did the same thing in mixing character, their character and stories from many ages. Thats the real answer...JUST DIFFERENT.
I actually quit debating on Batman videos about Burton vs. Nolan topics a few weeks ago. I only reply whenever someone replies to one of my older comments. After that, I stay away from them. I decided to quit debating with Burton fanboys on these type of videos (you're not a Burton fanboy though; you are a normal guy) because they always insult the ones that disagree with them.
@silenceofthehills Just look at the Archfiend. He was just stating his opinion without trying to force it on anyone else and the Burton fanboys left him insults such as "you're stupid" and "you're ugly and no one gives a shit about you". And they do these things ALL THE TIME. As soon as someone DARES to say ANYTHING about Nolan's films being better (even if they are not forcing their opinion of others), they get flamed and labelled a troll. That is why I decided to stay away from these videos.
@silenceofthehills Even though if that seen from DC 28 is used in Batman Returns, Penguin and Catwoman are very far off.
The Joker's only gag in TKJ was the "click click" gun at the end. The hand shake gag isn't much of a gag anymore because it is used in real life by some criminals. And the cane full of acid is not a gag unless it is part of the acid-squirting flower. As for black comedy, there are only 2 scenes in the film:
1) The Joker shooting that mob boss while dancing.
Well, I count them as a "gag" even if others don't. This is because it shouldn't be up to a buzzer for it to be a deadly gag. The idea and vien is that it is a prank or hidden devise as a surprise. Even if they aren't gags in the humorous tone or campy and isn't the right word, a general sense of trickery is what I meant. A deadly prank/other if you will. Basically tricks up Joker's sleave. As for CatWoman, she's based on "Her sister's keeper" & the old housekeeper mixed.
@silenceofthehills If by "gags" you mean any hidden joke as a surprise, then do you consider the pencil trick to be a gag?
Where exactly in the comics did Catwoman posess supernatural powers and was able to eat mice?
He did have some gags in the Golden Age (like the Joker Venom). And what I meant to say when I said that TDK Joker is closer to his modern counterpart is that he has the same mentality.
No, I don't. It wont be the same logic trust me. Its TOO different, like the Joker venom and mist he sprays in the film. A leathal nerve gas.
Also, this "super natural power" is homage to BatMan#35. At least it was done there. At least it was done in a comic. I know what your doing by talking about the era too, they just made it up on their own. So I don't want to here the same again that they don't matter just because they'll never return to that way. No more please.
@silenceofthehills The lack of gags was also added for the realism of the movie.
I haven't read Batman #35. But I do know that Catwoman first appeared in Batman #1 (I read it). And she never had any supernatural powers over there. And I know that she didn't have any supernatural powers for the majority of her career in the comics. So why would she have supernatural powers for only 1 issue (Batman #35) and then go back to being "normal" in her next appearance?
Your term "supernatural powers" is a bit abrupt. I don't think she has, its just suspension of disbelieve. Being a bit overlly literal and it sounds very off from what it really is.
@silenceofthehills I meant to say "superhuman powers". I dont know why I used the word "supernatural".
Ive read the whole link. First, I want to start by saying that Tim Burton did NOT read any comics. He himself said that he would never pick up a comic book to read. He said The Killing Joke was the only Batman comic he has ever read. But I doubt that because:
1) Nothing from TKJ is used in his films.
2) Check his explanation for why he likes TKJ or Wikipedia or somewhere. It sounds stupid.
@silenceofthehills So I first disagree with the article when it says "Tim Burton had read comics mainly, the 1939-1940 comics, Steve Englehart's 1970s run, and The Killing Joke)." That is not true.
Yes, but the article also said Sam Hamm did so to, maker of Ducard and writer of comic stories. Its officially reported that the producers gave him those books to look at. Also, he also had others writers of comics show him the books. No such thing as so many coinsidences unless he or they more accuratly know it by heart.
Yes, on his spare time, he would not. Not his style or his full like. Still, a comic is a story, like a novel. Different narrative format, thats it.
@silenceofthehills I could see what you are trying to prove with Bruce Wayne. I can understand your point. But whenever Bruce Wayne WAS in public in the Golden Age issues, he knew how to act somewhat normal and with charm. Michael Keaton wasn't like that. When in public, he did not know how to act normal and was behaving like a shy person. Also, the reason why Bruce Wayne doesn't go in public much in the old comics is because comics mostly concentrated on only the main story back then. So.....
......there were no big subplots or anything like that. That is not the case these days anymore. Same thing could be applied to Commissioner Gordon's absenses from the old comics. But whenever Gordon DID appear, he wasn't the clueless moron he is in Batman '89 and Returns.
The Killing Joke as influence for the Penguin? Come on. We both agree that stuff like those are generic.
What do you mean by that. Generic, as in so basic none of it comes from that or the Killing Peck, a similar story to Killing Joke? Meaning, they could have pulled it out of their ass?
@silenceofthehills What I meant to say is that comparing The Killing Joke with the Penguin in Batman Returns is stupid. It is clearly obvious that such random book cannot have influence on a character COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the characters in The Killing Joke. Even the story itself is a little different.
Well, you forget that influence is influence, not the letter or a comparison. He liked Killing Joke, there was The Killing Peck, which was kind of similar in story development, yet very different. It probably hit him since he said he didn't like the tone of the first film and didn't get to do much with it. The idea is that they aren't adapting one thing. Pengiun is where he actually changed much of anyone. Loosely based any TKJ/TKP, like the zoo. Here, but not the same.
@silenceofthehills I know what influence is. But he said The Killing Joke was a MAJOR influence on his Batman films. But I barely saw any influence, let alone a major one.
Well, finding it is impossible as it may not be appearent in the film. You have to understand the last shooting draft, still based on everything in the Sam Hamm draft, was based on a time before it released. I have noted at least 2-3 more conclusive things that were changed in light of the comic though.
That was the first film though. Onto the second, the circus show freaks/alot of other things came from the Killing Joke, while other, the Killing Peck. The Penguin origin story. Some story elements come through on Returns. Its basically a mess to a degree because Burton on pressed on using it more then the producer's allowed. This proves he wanted to use it at least. Again, he didn't like the first's tone and even his dream as I read his 89 film notes, was even darker.
@silenceofthehills I was referring to the first film when I said that The Killing Joke didn't have any major influence on it. As for the second film, I am not sure about that. I could kinda see the whole circus show thing as influenced by The Killing Joke. But the website you posted a link for went as far as saying the Joker's origin was used as an inspiration for the Penguin in Returns. I wouldn't go as far as that.
I was refering to the first film too when talking of 2-3 definite references to the comic.
Now, I re-read all about the origin bit because you make it feel like they took strict things from it. But alas, a missinterpretation. No, they were seeking the rejection from everything aspect. He was rejected by all in both, so in a way, it makes sense. This could from anything, but alas, its what he liked and wanted to use. So be it if it came from there or not.
Penguin was raised in the sewers by penguins in the comics? What comic was that? Was it an Elseworld story? Just curious.
From what I heard, Warner Bros gave Burton complete control over Batman Returns.
I didn't have a problem with the tone in Batman '89. Gotham City looked perfect in it. I actually thought the tone was way too dark and too depressing in Returns.
Penguin's origin is likely a fresh take on the character, like Nolan's origins changes with Two-face having Joker involved phychologically and with the bomb choice game.
As for the tone, it doesn't mean atmosphere alone, but the way of the story. Burton's Joker was darker and more on choas and anarchy. Jack would still play him, but it was more raw, even having the Heath/Ceaser smile going into cheak thing.
@silenceofthehills I know Penguin's origin is an origin that's not from the comics (like Two-Face's). But you said that Penguin's origin story in Returns was based or influenced by some Batman comic. So I asked you which comic that idea for the Penguin's origin was taken from.
Really, I don't remember saying that. I think you are talking about The Killing Peck? Made by Alan Grant, another similarity to the killing joke being the writer's name, freaky. I'll quote the link.
"Obviously, it [TKP] wasn't the basis for the Returns origin. All in all, though, it gave the lonely outcast angle that Burton enhanced, the dangerous homicidal angle to Penguin, and even the use of a zoo as a hideout".
We could also include the kidnapping theme as well.
@silenceofthehills You said "Onto the second, the circus show freaks/alot of other things came from the Killing Joke, while other, the Killing Peck. The Penguin origin story." I probably misunderstood your comment. I thought you said the Penguin's origin was taken from The Killing Peck.
I can't relate the kidnapping theme with The Killing Joke. The Joker kidnapped Jim Gordon to drive him insane. The Penguin kidnapped those children to drown them in the sewers.
The rest of penuin is indeed made up and based on his origin change, based upon his rejection as he was the first born in his family as well. I myself was confused on how this Penguin fit after learning more on him in the day, however, there is alot of references to things he'd done in the comic, as well as his more agressive dark side within Killing Peck/other comics. So, I have some respect for this take on him, but its a stretch to say he IS the penguin in the comics.
@silenceofthehills Now that I think about it, the kidnapping of first-born children scenario would work great for the Mad Hatter if he appears in a future Batman film (since he does that in the comics).
DC themselves have confirmed that Modern Age Batman is the most accurate portrayal of Batman within comics. When he was killing people, they were still working on the character. After that, they tried a campier take but that didn't work either. He was only perfected in the 80's.
Did you know that Batman started out as a ripoff of a character called the Shadow? When he got rid of his gun, he became his own character.
Actually you got it right, Michael Keaton's real last name is Douglas. I disagree with some of your points, but I understand that you really enjoy origin stories told in detail. I too thought Nicholson deserved at least a nomination but at that time there was no way the Academy would give any recognition to a movie like that for any of the major awards.
Scarecrow76 12 hours ago
Archfiends age is between 31 - 34
Seemplay101 3 weeks ago in playlist More videos from TheArchfiend
True Spider-Man 2002 did well at telling the origin story, although it's going to be explored into greater detail and differently in the reboot The Amazing Spider-Man 2012
TheCosmicFireStar 1 month ago
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Could use a little more Two-Face? Yea me as well. Check out this interesting Two-Face fan film on my page. Do you believe in Harvey Dent?! You will after you see this.
InuWarrior 2 months ago
Burton emotized batman just like other the other shit he's made
SuperMicklovin 3 months ago
nolan's is more realistic. anything tim burton makes is shit - only for emo kids and fan boys and goth fags.
mykebulvai 3 months ago
@mykebulvai I see you've conducted heavy research. Did surveys. Made pie charts. Such an astute observation.
ToddSGallows 2 months ago 2
@ToddSGallows . oh and i forgot to mention sarcasm is one of the prickly little characteristics of burton fans. congratulations.
mykebulvai 2 months ago
@mykebulvai Thank you. Pulling yet another ad hominem attack out of your ass to cater to your case and acting like it's a fact. You are the one who deserves to be congratulated.
ToddSGallows 2 months ago
@ToddSGallows . eeeahhha - and this is coming from a little chap who couldn't resist but to reply to my initial comment. Let me guess, vaguely insulted? Slight annoyed by my little comment? I hit a soft spot didn't I? something that's part of you or someone close to you? You my little chap, capitalise the word loser with a capital L. Congratulations. Fanboy.
mykebulvai 2 months ago
@mykebulvai Nope. If that were the case, I would have ignored you and attacked the author of the video. I was just amused by your horrendous sense of logic, and by how confidently you spew erroneous facts. You also seem to feel empowered by lobbing ad hominem attacks. No soft spot was hit. I am not devoted to Tim Burton, and he doesn't even know I exist. I like about 4 movies of his filmography. I sense some projection from your end though. But hey, keep doing what you do. It speaks volumes.
ToddSGallows 2 months ago
i couldnt help but laugh at you and your voice and everything during so keep it up man prolly have nothin better to do besides jack it on youtube and or youjizz.com
tcreitnauer1021 3 months ago 3
@tcreitnauer1021
Cool stories bro. Type some more.
Thank$ for watching thi$ video.
TheArchfiend 3 months ago
who are you? just curious. the point is that everyone understands what the Batman is, plain and simple cheif, he's a crime fighting super hero everyone who bought a ticket understood that and the opening shot should have the Batman kickin some ass and the first plot point is usually discovered around 15 minutes into the film. idk why i decided to argue this im not a "fanboy" at all i just dont think you can talk so much if you dont have higher education of film and its history peace out fag boy
tcreitnauer1021 3 months ago
chill dude movies are supposed to suspend our disbelief if you knew anything about film
tcreitnauer1021 3 months ago
@tcreitnauer1021
No shit, Sherlock. If you knew anything about movies you would know that the plot is supposed to make sense.
TheArchfiend 3 months ago
Batman begins really made batman realistic and human usually batman would just suit up and fight crime like a comic book lol
TheBboyadjust 5 months ago
I liked batman begins too but there was just one problem. For me the action was bad. The camera just shaking all the time and it was hard to see what is happening. But otherwise best batman movie.
Lozjudai 5 months ago
Fuck you! You dnt know shit. Batman Begins was boring.
Connect200 6 months ago
NEW BATMAN SUCKS MAJOR ASS...LONG,WINDED,OVER HYPED,BADLY ACTED,THIN PLOT,USELESS CHARACTERS, NO SENSE OF HUMOR,TERRIBLE COSTUME AND SET DESIGN WITHOUT IMAGINATION AND 3 HOURS TOO FUCKING LONG!!!
sheilaboy44 6 months ago 2
JACK NICHOLSON IS THE JOKER AND MICHAEL KEATON IS BATMAN HANDS DOWN EVERBODY ELSE JUST RUINED IT...
sheilaboy44 6 months ago
Wow, it's weird to hear "Batman" and "fanboys" in the same sentence, lol. Not sure why, guess I just never thought of Batman as a fanboy-ish type media. Loved the rant, Arch :) I never thought of any of those movies that way until you made the comparisons, with the backstory and character development. Totally agree on Spiderman and Superman. I like Batman Returns, but not so much the first of Burton's. Begins and The Dark Knight are my favorites, though.
Spl4shD4m4ge 7 months ago
at the end i laughed my ass off , cuz its true that in almost every holllywood movie The Black guy dies first or dies in the most RIDICULOUS way possible, an most people deny it but its in fact true go look at any movie you will see the trend lol
sharp2257 8 months ago
man whatever! mr mom fought that vacuum cleaner like a BOSS!
jeremalaria 8 months ago
i think in 1989, batman was iconic enough not to have all the back story. i actually didn't like how nolan's batman had that much back story. i thought it was too much. i think in 89, you're just supposed to accept that batman is rich as hell, so he can just buy all his techy stuff.
anyway... respect your opinion. they make movies for entertainment, and if you were entertained, then it did its job.
jeremalaria 8 months ago
wow you're older than i thought. you were actually stoked about batman 89... Just a comment on how you do not seem to be as old as you are.
jeremalaria 8 months ago
This guy doesn't get it, Batman is soposed to be a mystery.
TheMCC14 9 months ago 8
@TheMCC14 To the other characters, not to the audience.
Ikarosus 8 months ago
@TheMCC14
>soposed
Stopped reading right there.
whjq 6 months ago
1989 batman movie by tim burton,,, was a more Mysterious batman,, the way the character of batman was and even the villian of the joker, their was much more of a mysterious element to the characters in the burton films,, batman was much more like a shadow,, a stone figure,, he didnt talk much, & u couldnt quit figure him out, like a myth, the dark mysterious tone of batman that tim burton did, is alot like the comics and the 90's animated series, & somthing the Nolan films are missing in batman
JOKAWILD26 10 months ago 10
@JOKAWILD26 i agree that's why i find tim burton batman movies better.
davlor86 1 month ago
no clips from the movie?
supermark69 10 months ago
right at the start when he said the batman begins remake is the best one i laughed my ass off like u serous i could mak a better one, tim burton did the best baman movies
LBJordan1 11 months ago
Comment removed
Ikarosus 10 months ago
@LBJordan1 Yeah, because Burtons movies were inteligent, had characters with valid motivation, were truthful to the comics, plot made sence, and Batman definetly didnt have higher bodycount than the Joker-
Wait a minute......
Ikarosus 10 months ago
@Ikarosus exactly tim burton makes amazing batman movies but the ew ones suck
LBJordan1 10 months ago
@Ikarosus exactly tim burton makes amazing batman movies but the new ones suck
LBJordan1 10 months ago
@LBJordan1 Ever heard of sarcasm? Nolans movies are great, Burtons Baman is good movie, but it fails epicly as a Batman movie and Returns sucked as both.
Ikarosus 10 months ago
@Ikarosus haha wow u make me laugh saying the first two arent good give me the drugs ur on and the news are the crap tatsic ones
LBJordan1 10 months ago
@LBJordan1 Its funny, that you are keep telling me, how good they are, yet I gave you valid and logical reasons why they are terrbile, and you havent writen ONE SINGLE ARGUMENT why do you think, that they are good.
Ikarosus 10 months ago
@Ikarosus i could write down tons but i have a life so ill just say well he keeps things to what batman is supose to be and has a batman who is actually good just everything is good but every one has there own thoughts so no matter what ppl say i wont care what u think if u say tim didnt do good cause i know the trueth
LBJordan1 10 months ago
@LBJordan1 In other words you are just an idiot, who dont have any idea what hes talking about. I can understand that you like them, but they are definetly not better than the new ones.
Ikarosus 10 months ago
@Ikarosus well screw u im not an idiot i have a life so i dont obsess with it i could argue with u butt wont change anything so i serouisly dont care
LBJordan1 10 months ago
@LBJordan1 You have a life, so you will not write anything constructive, yet you have enough time to write that you have a life, and that I am wrong. Yeah, that makes total sence (sarcasm).
Ikarosus 10 months ago
@Ikarosus ok well i dont give a shit everyone has there on comments and favorites and u nver said anyting constructive either so there and ur sarcasm needs work
LBJordan1 10 months ago
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@LBJordan1 "Yeah, because Burtons movies were inteligent, had characters with valid motivation, were truthful to the comics, plot made sence, and Batman definetly didnt have higher bodycount than the Joker-
Wait a minute......"
Ikarosus 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
We are doing a stop motion animation film called Tim. The movie is a stop motion animation film that is dedicated to Tim Burton and has Sir Christopher Lee as the narrator. Search the directors name Brian Joseph Ochab to find the video.
WMotionStudios 11 months ago
Hmm. You had an intresting point of view. First of all i must say to your last complain about the black guy kicking ass. Well, Joker shot Batwing out of the sky. Batman was hurt. That's why the black guy was kicking ass on that fight.
Burton wanted batman to be mysterious in the 89 film. That's why he didn't explain that much of the batman; He wanted that the viewers think batman is really mysterious charachter, which he is of course.
Sorry if my english is bad, it's not my nativelangue.
Oxnek 11 months ago
Tim Burton's Batman: "A good movie, but I don't like it."
What?
jcdcwassup 1 year ago
thats why Tim Burton was cool, because he focus on Batman and the villains u.u anyway, Nolan took a lot of elements from Buton's movies just watch my video:
Tim Burton versus Chris Nolan
DirtyDayMix 1 year ago
I though Batman Begins was quite boring. I loved TDK though.
Batman 1989 was good. Hated Batman returns.
hmmhowstrange 1 year ago
I didn't care for Batman Begins...mostly because Scare Crow was so under used....I NEED A GOOD VILLAIN
UnnamedAssaliant 1 year ago 2
u keep saying "right of the bat" i thought it was punny
jakeadamsonmusic 1 year ago
@jakeadamsonmusic Plus "lived under a rock" was used a lot
sabacrow91 1 year ago
tim burton probably assumed every one knew what it was about, but as they say when you assume you make an ASS out of U and ME
Nixom1334 1 year ago
BTW, Does anyone know who's going to be the main antagonist in next Batman movie? I thought I heard that Christopher Nolan will make another Batman.
LostFaithChoi 1 year ago
I agree the Batman begins was better than past ones, but it was HELL boring. 2 batman movies made by Christopher Nolan made me a fan of his. but Tim Burton? I don't know if it's just me but I NEVER like his movies. Not a single one made sense to why he's such a popular director. Maybe he's using some kind of hidden symbols or messages that I don't understand?
LostFaithChoi 1 year ago
@LostFaithChoi Dude! you didn't like the Nightmare before christmas?
Nixom1334 1 year ago
@Nixom1334 sorry I've never watched that movie. If it's like Alice in wonderland, I probably wouldn't even look at it. I'm not saying he's a bad director, but just not my "type"
LostFaithChoi 1 year ago
@LostFaithChoi it's stop motion animation. it's about beings from a halloween that accidentally find a christmas world. then they decide to give santa a break and do christmas themselves. but because they're monsters they do it all dark and scary. it's mostly for little kids but it's a classic. i haven't seen alice in wonderland so i couldn't compare them
Nixom1334 1 year ago
@bAmpersand
K, now where is your apology for calling me wrong?
Like I said, know what you are talking about before you start calling people wrong when it's you that doesn't know what they are talking about.
TheArchfiend 1 year ago
@TheArchfiend Chris Nolan made a good batman movie but i really think he should have made the action scenes way better than they should have been because in begins and dark knight the action scenes expecially the fighting scenes are too close up and done awful. Look at a good action movie say Enter the Dragon those are some of the best fighting scenes i'd ever saw.
kidkash23 1 year ago
@bAmpersand
Now watch this and admit you were wrong: watch?v=E5wcxnUcgDw
TheArchfiend 1 year ago
@bAmpersand
No. you are wrong. Watch the first god damn 2 minutes of Tim Burton's Batman. No one is talking about the shitty Bat Credit card joke from Batman and Robin. We are talking about the "Don't leave home without it" American Express joke in the beginning of Tim Burton's Batman. I spelled it out CRYSTAL CLEAR and idiots like you are still not getting it right. Again, WATCH THE MOVIE BATMAN AGAIN TO SEE IT.
Follow along properly or don't offer your comments about who is wrong.
TheArchfiend 1 year ago
I don't like Tim Burton myself. Though I did enjoy all the Batman movies. But Burton wants to do everything HIS way. Not the way it should be. He even made Alice in Wonderland too dark and evil.
TimmyGal 1 year ago
I grew up with the one's with tim burton plus "forever" but im not gonna go piss on this video because YOU ARE RIGHT! the tim burton one's focused WAY TOO MUCH on the damn villains! as a kid growing up i always wondered how the hell did bruce become batman?! i didnt see batman begins until recently but DAMN batman begins was definatly a breath of fresh air!
sabacrow91 1 year ago
Tim Burton just directed it. Shouldn't the person who wrote the film get the blame or the credit? Directors are always held accountable for what happens in a movie. Most of the time, they don't deserve any credit or blame.
tubed2247 1 year ago
This is all very simple: Christopher Nolan >>> Tim Burton
Nolan is better in every facet, he's a smart writer, innovative, and an EXTREMELY underrated director who is rising fast.
jessegladsaget 1 year ago
Dude i agree that batman begins is better but (now dont take this negatively) but im ashamed to be on your side because you seem like you dont know too much about batman.
Which is okay....You've only seen the movies and hevent read the comics or seen the animated series.
The problem is that your defending the right thing but doing it in a wrong way.
Your response is good though but maybe for next time use some research for your next response
regulator619 1 year ago
@regulator619
99% of the people that went to see the films didn't read the comics or watch the cartoon either.
TheArchfiend 1 year ago
@TheArchfiend Uhhh I care to disagree. Batman was pretty popular before that and superhero film weren't exactly the major blockbusters back in the day.
Peope who went to see Batman begins however grew up watching Batman as kids and the ones who were kids have video games and such to tell them the origin.
About ur video,When i say you're defenidn it wrong i mean the content of the film as well as its context. Its not a beginning| middle| end thing. Nolans stroy is much more complex.RanOUTofSPACE
regulator619 1 year ago
@regulator619
K, 98%.
Seriously dude. You act as if there is this large populace that read comic books and watched the cartoons when they aired. In the grand scheme it represent a VERY SMALL portion of the actual movie goer. You are being a bit fanboyish to Batman to act otherwise.
TheArchfiend 1 year ago
@TheArchfiend reg619 dont waste your time this douchebag doesnt listen to polite reasoning. You cant exactly teach a dog how to speak so please allow me to bitch-slap him.
6048545078 1 year ago
@regulator619
Hold on. I just re-read your comment.
I gotta go do some research now. I will go back and read every comic book of Batman and watch everything single cartoon and show so that I can have a talk about this and have any legitimacy.
Go phuck yourself you pompous geek cunt.
TheArchfiend 1 year ago
@TheArchfiend Whoa! A little too strong of a reaction. Although he probably is a chode. By the way, wasn't the credit card joke from the Batman and Robin movie?
tubed2247 1 year ago
@tubed2247
No. It was in the first two minutes of Tim Burton's, Batman. Watch it again to see.
TheArchfiend 1 year ago
Actually, Tim Burton wasn't even chosen as the 1st draft completed. Writer Sam Hamm and the producers decided that the origin story would be too slow so they opted for Joker’s. They took BatMan back to his roots. The first panel of his appearance in DC 27 explodes onto screen. BatMan is similar to Watchmen where they had an origin tale, but more opted for a novel adaptation approach. BatMan paved the way for those types of comic adaptations as it shown the original source is good enough.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
DAMN!!!!!!
YOU ARE JUST SO FUCKING UGLY!!!
I JUST WANT TO BEAT YOU'RE FACE IN!!!!!
ChevyDawson 1 year ago
@ChevyDawson LOL An internet tough guy. AKA, someone who won't do shit.
TheArchfiend 1 year ago
Comment removed
Skeletonwitharaygun 1 year ago
"Don't leave home without it."
From Batman and Robin. Research is great.
DickheadAbove 1 year ago
Biggest issue is that the two batman series happen in differant comic universe. Batman comics have mostly focused on the villians and less on the personailty of Batman. I agree with you on teh explaining who Batman is.
thepoliticalstartrek 1 year ago
Burton's interpretation on Bruce Wayne was right one.
KillaMax113 1 year ago
Burton films were fun comic book epic adventure.
Nolans films are boring soap opera drama.
KillaMax113 1 year ago
@KillaMax113 Batman is supposed to be a dark story. It is not supposed to be a fun comic book adventure.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru Of course its suppose to be a dark story the same way Burton did it, Nolans films are boring.
KillaMax113 1 year ago
@KillaMax113 But it's not like that in the comics.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru Burton's Batman is faithful to the very early Batman. If you gonna look at the Batman comics as a holy scripture and anything that makes changes is wrong then there is no point watching a movie. What happens to Batman in the movie is as much valid as in the comics, And if you count validity by the general public, then the movies are telling Batman stories to the masses. Comics haven't done that since the war (when Superman outsold Time magazine).
KillaMax113 1 year ago
@KillaMax113 The early Batman is not Batman. It takes years and years of changes until a character is perfected in the comics. When Batman killed in the comics for the very early years, his character wasn't fully perfected and finished yet. So the early comics are not an excuse for him killing. Plus, he only killed for a few issues in the early comics. After that, he decided killing was wrong so he stopped. This means that if Burton wanted to stay true to the early comics, he should have.....
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
......stopped at one point but Burton was planning to continue writing him as a killer for the rest of the franchise.
Other adaptations have at least got the basics of the characters right.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
At least here it was heroic and mostly accidental. Odd as I never sensed him as a killer in the films and now due to error on the new comics batman character. As AVGN said, he did it all the time in the old comics, even Miller's work had one or two questionable moments, like burning a cop only for a destraction or an even similar to Returns with the clown with Salena at gun point.
Oh, and a differently dressed law enforcer that is trusted by cops isn't realy vigilante.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills I already explained why his first year does not count. By the logic of Batman being allowed to kill because he did it in the early comics, that's like saying that I could make a Superman movie where Superman kills, cannot fly, is intestructible, the planet from where he came from is never specified, and he fights a woman (all these things happened in the old comics). And if I make this Superman movie, nobody is allowed to complain.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
Oh, why doesn't it count elitist. You guys never get it. They wanted to take him back to his darker routes. So be it. At least he doesn't use guns and all that. The new BatMan is less vigilante again, to think about it, so give BatMan's history some credit.
Its not the same issue anyhow... as its bull that you elites make out as not to his character at all from any comic or era, then you go in saying those don't matter when it does come from somehting.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills It is not a mix of the golden age comics and the modern comics (old and new). None of the characters pull anything from the modern age nor do they pull anything from the Golden Age. Bruce Wayne is never that emotionally depressed in both ages. Commissioner Gordon is nowhere near being that stupid in both ages. Vicki Vale is a lot more intelligent in both the golden age and the modern age and also doesn't scream as much.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills And although the Joker looks like his golden age counterpart, his character and personality is nothing like the Golden Age Joker. In the golden age, the Joker was just an insane serial killer wearing facepaint that just pops out of nowhere and starts terrorizing people. Jack's Joker is more of a gentleman mob boss instead. And he isn't like the modern age Joker either. Jack's Joker is more like the Bronze Age Joker.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
I know this, the Joker of the film is based on the Steve Englehart Joker, which is the basis used in The Killing Joke also. This is the character that pulls out gags and sings a little carnival show tune in light of murdering people. The film Joker is a mix of this and maybe the Joker in the 60's show.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills If they were aiming for a mixed adaptation of both the golden age and modern age comics, then the characters would have pulled from both counterparts. But with the exception of Batman killing people in Burton's films just like in the Golden Age comics, there isn't any other character that are in character with the Golden Age characters (nor are they in character with the modern age characters).
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills If Burton didn't have a lot of involvement in those films, then I blame whoever is the most responsible for them.
The link you gave me could be argued. Some of those images only PARTLY resemble each other. And the ones that do resemble each other very well have been used in the Silver Age, Bronze Age, and Modern Age as well (An example would be the "Bang" image. The Joker used it in every single era). Other images could be adapted by flicking through the pages.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
Blame them for what though is the quesiton? If you are personally dissapointed, then so be it. Its not the same as being a bastarization.
As for the link, not many people I show that to get the link. Yes there are questionable things, but don't tell me they flipped through the pages just because of something you didn't like. There are too many lagit usages of comics versus their own adding and ordering within the story. WE KNOW they officially used and had the issues.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills I wouldn't go as far as saying that it is a bastardization because Batman '89 is a good movie if you don't look at it as a Batman adaptation and you just look at it as just a regular movie. But it is a poor adaptation.
Other pages have existed in the Silver Age and Modern Age as well. And some of them are popular to even the people who do not read comics.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills Jack's Joker is based on the Bronze Age Joker. In the Bronze Age, the Joker was the exact same campy clown that he was in the Silver Age and the 60's show except that now he killed people and robbed banks.
Steve Englehart was writing Batman during the Bronze Age. The Killing Joke Joker is different. It is the first portrayal of the Modern Age Joker within comics. And from that point on, the Joker has always been portrayed as the complete psychopath he is in The Killing Joke.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
In retrospect, the full reality is censorship.
Also, don't tell me because your wanted look with traditionalization that TKJ didn't just push it farther and the book can show more then in the day, that this Joker is not phychopathic and just ol gay campy, yet TKJ Joker pulls out gags and sings a show tune.
Oh the fanboys that think that TKJ joker is NOT the same with less censorship and Alan Moore behind the helm for a nice story.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills There were 3 reasons why Batman stopped using his gun:
1) censorship.
2) Too much like the Shadow. DC #27 itself was based on the Shadow's first appearance.
3) A lot of fans back then disliked his gun due to his parents being taken away from him by a gun.
He pulls ONE gag throughout the entire book. The Joker does occasionally pull gags even in the modern stuff. And he danced to drive Commissioner Gordon insane (not like in the museum scene, where he danced for fun).
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
Well I never liked it either. If you mean ONE gag through TKJ, you are a lier. He used a hand shake gag, then something at the end of his cane with acid or something, and lastly a bang gun esque "click click click" gun. About 3-4 gags in one comic.
I know the Jack Joker is a tad different, I'm not comparing, still, the idea is similar. Black Comedy and Joker's weird vien. Destroying priceless art like its nothing isn't as vile, but it wasn't his A list plan in the film.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills On top of that, TKJ Joker did one of the most traumatizing moments in all of Batman comics (and very traumatizing in real life too if it happened). If you've read the book, I'm pretty sure you know what he did. There wasn't a lot of censorship behind TKJ.
No adaptation has to be direct; they just need to get the basics of the characters right.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills
The Killing Joke is also the story that removed the Joker's origin from canon continuity.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills Batman didn't blow up the factory on accident.
I already explained why Burton's films are not close to the old comics at all. Even if you were to argue that the producers of the movie (notice how I didn't say Burton now) wanted to take Batman to his old roots, then it fails as an adaptation of the old comics too because none of the other characters are in character with their golden age counterparts (I already explained why the others are not in character).
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
Never said that. Again, its the character of the older BatMan and what he would do, but they put him through modern stuff, like the older gagless Joker runs around with a batman more of the modern era. Also, people have nerv to talk about the character of these characters. They'd be better off just saying "there they are on screen, yippe".
Why? The story DOES contain what they do, say and think. Alot of this is invisible so story is more important
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills What they do in the story is part of the characters' personalities.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills If they were to adapt a direct adaptation of the Golden Age comics where ALL of the characters are in character with their Golden Age counterparts, then fine. But this is not the case here.
I'll explain it in simpler words:
As an adaptation of the Golden Age comics , Batman '89 and Batman Returns fail.
As an adaptation of the Modern Age comics, Batman '89 and Batman Returns fail even more.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
Why does it even need to be direct? In a real general standpoint, it counts.
I guess TDK is a horrid adaption because they merged the older gagless joker who steels together with the new chaos and mayhem Joker who has no real purpose but that itself, along with his conflict he makes with batman I suppose.
I guess your right then, it is bad as a direct, to the letter adaption, but it wasn't meant to be.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills It is different with TDK Joker. Most of the crimes and events caused by the TDK Joker are taken from the modern stuff. Even his way of thinking and mind set are from the modern comics. The elements borrowed from the Golden Age are only homages (such as the facepaint and the scene where he removes his makeup to disguise as a police officer). There is a difference between an adaptation of a character and a homage to a character.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills
Burton's Batman just kills; that is all. There is nothing Golden Age about it besides that. Also, Batman was ALREADY dark in the comics before the 1989 film was released. They didn't have to take him back to his old routes to make him dark for the movie because he has already been dark for a few years before the release of Batman '89. So if they wanted to introduce the true dark Batman to the silver screen, all they had to do was adapt the modern comics.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills
The fact that Batman doesn't kill DOES matter. Just because he killed in his first year of publication doesn't mean that someone can make an adaptation where he kills and then says "He could kill as much as he wants because he did it in the old comics". The only acceptable reasons are the 2 reasons that I posted yesterday (and once again, none of them were the case with '89).
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
But the fact that its in a comic and based on another era in a sense DOES matter.
As for the rest, now your getting silly and blind as noone is saying any of this, and, BatMan89 does fall into that. I guess no one cares about what I just said, in how they take locations and events into acount, even in returns that used 28's first story in a way, a prelude to pengiun. Both frame BatMan in their first story.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills
Modern Age Batman is JUST as dark as Golden Age Batman. The only difference between them is that Golden Age Batman kills criminals while Modern Age Batman doesn't. However, they both beat criminals to a pulp and both intimidate them the same way.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
I can agree, but their mindframe was to replicate the older issues in a sense as well. They even have the first and second appearances of the siuted BatMan in the same general way, only they made this person Joker, fitting how its the same story. Likely they were inspired to use what was in 27's first story for joker's origins latter on in the comics and this then fits conjoining the two stories of the shoot up and other from 27 into the film.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills The Joker's acid bath origin was introduced in the comics before the release of Batman '89. Thus, they got the origin from the comics and not from Detective Comics #27. That is a perfect example of when I said that some of those images to the links you sent me existed in other parts of the comics besides the early issues. And the Joker's origin is not based on the accidental death of the guy in #27. The Joker originally had facepaint and the acid bath origin was added later.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
As of now, your beginning to go incoherent with my comments. Firstly why did you even get from my comment, that I said Joker had this origin from square one? In fact they never reveal if its actually just face paint or anything in the oldest of issues.
Stuff happening in newer issues too...yeah, but didn't they have these issues and if those events happen first here? Don't you know what that means...
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills You told me that Jack's Joker's origin was inspired by the death of the criminal that falls into acid in Detective Comics #27. And that is not true because the Joker had a similar origin to that that was introduced in 1951. I was also saying how the Joker's acid bath origin had nothing to do with DC #27 because it came out in the Silver Age. So Jack's Joker's origin had nothing to do with DC #27.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
No, to put it clear, it was not Jack's Joker's origin alone. They just incorperated some of 27 into the film because its similar to Joker's origin. Look at how BatMan's second ever appearance in the film is here, it is here too in 27 comic.
I just said that 27 likely was incorperated into Joker's origin in the comics, the red hood story, because it was quite similar. I wouldn't know for sure unless an interview says they were inspired by 27 to make his origin.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills It was the Joker's origin alone. There was even an origin for the Joker in the comics where he was a mob boss. As for Batman's second appearance, that is one of the generic pics that I was describing. And he made a similar appearance in the Joker's origin (from the rooftop of the chemical factory).
The Joker's acid bath origin was far different than the 27 comic. The 27 comic involved a random killer. The Joker's acid bath origin involved an entire mob scheme.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
Last comments. I want to make are about the origins. Yes I know about the origins as a whole and you say he emerges from the roof. I know it was different, it always will, but alot of the event stands the same. From coming in from the roof to other. Its certain they are paying ode to that comic with the origin. Again, I know the plot is different. I think you imply they could get that from the new, but i'm saying its likely both are used for reference as they had 27-37.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills Overall, the 27 comic could be related to any acid bath accident. It's a generic thing.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills In one of the Joker's Golden Age appearances, it was stated that he was able to remove his facepaint and disguise as a police officer.
Those stuff happening in both old and new issues have been repeating themselves for as long as Batman existed. And you're trying to prove that Burton's film stay true to the Golden Age comics by listing facts that can be found ANYWHERE in the Batman comics at any era.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
I know, I read it, not the point. Also I don't think it says that he had removed any make up. They don't say, but in the day you'd assume this. It's like Wolverines claws being made natural after being thought to have been not I suppose. I may need to read it again, but still, had nothing to do with it.
That last words here are the same. They could have gotten it anywhere, why would it matter. STILL, they in record used those ones.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills He did remove his facepaint to disguise as a police officer in the early issues. And in the early issues, he was also more of a serial killer who disguised as the Joker (card) to commit crimes (this was stated in the dialogues). And the acid bath origin did not exist until 1951. When the Joker was first created, he was based off a character from a movie called The Man Who Laughs.
Those panels have been known to the general public (not just comic book fans) since always.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills It still confuses me why they would an origin for the Joker in Batman '89 because the Joker doesn't have an origin in the Golden Age nor does he have an origin in the Modern Age. The Joker's acid bath origin was first introduced in the Silver Age and was eliminated from continuity in the Modern Age.
I still doubt that they were trying to replicate the Golden Age comics. I doubt anyone is stupid enough to adapt panels and not stay true to the characters.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills Everyone knows that adapting a character matters more than adapting panels when making a film adaptation of a comic. This is just common sense. That's why I doubt they were trying to adapt the Golden Age comics.
And the fact that it is nothing like the the era that it is supposed to be based on in a sense DOES matter.
Both of them framing Batman does not mean that is it based off #28. By that logic, every single Batman story where Batman is framed was inspired by #28.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
I guess if its like a new story that fits with in like a new issue, but if it isn't, they still should screw the story over and Sin City panel recreation is great and counts to consistancy.
So now its back THEIR NOT EVEN TRYING TO?
Nothing like the era, what do you expect? Big franken monsters? Its not meant to be perfectly the era.
I know as they HAD those issue physically on 28, he's blaimed by missonception by police on top a roof. Same, but new elements.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills Yes, Sin City panel recreation is great. But character would matter too.
Well, it doesn't feel as if it takes place in the pulp inspired 1930s look. It has more of a modern gothic feel to it. Also, first you were saying they are trying to adapt the era and now you're saying that they are not. And the era doesn't have to be perfect; only the basics of it.
I'll answer the rest later; I have some personal work I have to do now.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
Ugh, the character is in the bag, the story. I'm sorry but your getting it all wrong here once again as well, so don't put words in my mouth. All I remember saying is that BatMan, like Joker in TDK is a mixture of the two eras, based upon the older sources, maybe some of the new for revisions sake, so its not too much the older era. Also, you said only the basics matter, well, that was kinda the point. It was what they were geared at, alot they didn't want.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills There is only 1 difference between Golden Age Batman and Modern Age Batman (which is that one of them doesn't kill). So it is not much of a mixture here.
TDK Joker's mentality and mind set is closer to his modern counterpart than his Golden Age counterpart. And the basics of the CHARACTERS do matter. And no other character in Batman '89 is how they were in both the old and new comics (except for the part of Batman killing).
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
My last last comment, I hope. Explaining myself on the comment about Joker and TDK. I understand this too. His character was more for mayhem versus the ditched robbery. The old stuff is more the lack of gags and alot of events out of the old no.1, like getting out of jail and the roof top scenario. They did that perfectly, 89 used the lighthouse scene for inspiration instead. I weigh character too. Also, maybe the important basics are there, just with other thrown on top.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
Look, I don't even want you to "answer" anything anymore. No point and were flooding Archfiend's channel.
Remember that this is a massively multi issue comic/graphic novel adaptation and not a single comic/graphic novel adaptation. There is too much to go on for the length of the film and in these, many mixed eras and sources come into play. Nolan did the same thing in mixing character, their character and stories from many ages. Thats the real answer...JUST DIFFERENT.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills
I actually quit debating on Batman videos about Burton vs. Nolan topics a few weeks ago. I only reply whenever someone replies to one of my older comments. After that, I stay away from them. I decided to quit debating with Burton fanboys on these type of videos (you're not a Burton fanboy though; you are a normal guy) because they always insult the ones that disagree with them.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills Just look at the Archfiend. He was just stating his opinion without trying to force it on anyone else and the Burton fanboys left him insults such as "you're stupid" and "you're ugly and no one gives a shit about you". And they do these things ALL THE TIME. As soon as someone DARES to say ANYTHING about Nolan's films being better (even if they are not forcing their opinion of others), they get flamed and labelled a troll. That is why I decided to stay away from these videos.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills Even though if that seen from DC 28 is used in Batman Returns, Penguin and Catwoman are very far off.
The Joker's only gag in TKJ was the "click click" gun at the end. The hand shake gag isn't much of a gag anymore because it is used in real life by some criminals. And the cane full of acid is not a gag unless it is part of the acid-squirting flower. As for black comedy, there are only 2 scenes in the film:
1) The Joker shooting that mob boss while dancing.
2) Killing Bob.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
Well, I count them as a "gag" even if others don't. This is because it shouldn't be up to a buzzer for it to be a deadly gag. The idea and vien is that it is a prank or hidden devise as a surprise. Even if they aren't gags in the humorous tone or campy and isn't the right word, a general sense of trickery is what I meant. A deadly prank/other if you will. Basically tricks up Joker's sleave. As for CatWoman, she's based on "Her sister's keeper" & the old housekeeper mixed.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills If by "gags" you mean any hidden joke as a surprise, then do you consider the pencil trick to be a gag?
Where exactly in the comics did Catwoman posess supernatural powers and was able to eat mice?
He did have some gags in the Golden Age (like the Joker Venom). And what I meant to say when I said that TDK Joker is closer to his modern counterpart is that he has the same mentality.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
No, I don't. It wont be the same logic trust me. Its TOO different, like the Joker venom and mist he sprays in the film. A leathal nerve gas.
Also, this "super natural power" is homage to BatMan#35. At least it was done there. At least it was done in a comic. I know what your doing by talking about the era too, they just made it up on their own. So I don't want to here the same again that they don't matter just because they'll never return to that way. No more please.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills The lack of gags was also added for the realism of the movie.
I haven't read Batman #35. But I do know that Catwoman first appeared in Batman #1 (I read it). And she never had any supernatural powers over there. And I know that she didn't have any supernatural powers for the majority of her career in the comics. So why would she have supernatural powers for only 1 issue (Batman #35) and then go back to being "normal" in her next appearance?
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
Your term "supernatural powers" is a bit abrupt. I don't think she has, its just suspension of disbelieve. Being a bit overlly literal and it sounds very off from what it really is.
In BatMan 35 is was way worse though.
batmanmovieonline(dot)com(slash)features(dot)php?display=58
Its in here, please don't make the same mistake and NOT read it like last link. Go in open minded please and don't respond with bias "could bes...".
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills I meant to say "superhuman powers". I dont know why I used the word "supernatural".
Ive read the whole link. First, I want to start by saying that Tim Burton did NOT read any comics. He himself said that he would never pick up a comic book to read. He said The Killing Joke was the only Batman comic he has ever read. But I doubt that because:
1) Nothing from TKJ is used in his films.
2) Check his explanation for why he likes TKJ or Wikipedia or somewhere. It sounds stupid.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills So I first disagree with the article when it says "Tim Burton had read comics mainly, the 1939-1940 comics, Steve Englehart's 1970s run, and The Killing Joke)." That is not true.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
Yes, but the article also said Sam Hamm did so to, maker of Ducard and writer of comic stories. Its officially reported that the producers gave him those books to look at. Also, he also had others writers of comics show him the books. No such thing as so many coinsidences unless he or they more accuratly know it by heart.
Yes, on his spare time, he would not. Not his style or his full like. Still, a comic is a story, like a novel. Different narrative format, thats it.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills
I have no comment on the rest of those images on that link.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills I could see what you are trying to prove with Bruce Wayne. I can understand your point. But whenever Bruce Wayne WAS in public in the Golden Age issues, he knew how to act somewhat normal and with charm. Michael Keaton wasn't like that. When in public, he did not know how to act normal and was behaving like a shy person. Also, the reason why Bruce Wayne doesn't go in public much in the old comics is because comics mostly concentrated on only the main story back then. So.....
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills
......there were no big subplots or anything like that. That is not the case these days anymore. Same thing could be applied to Commissioner Gordon's absenses from the old comics. But whenever Gordon DID appear, he wasn't the clueless moron he is in Batman '89 and Returns.
The Killing Joke as influence for the Penguin? Come on. We both agree that stuff like those are generic.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
What do you mean by that. Generic, as in so basic none of it comes from that or the Killing Peck, a similar story to Killing Joke? Meaning, they could have pulled it out of their ass?
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills What I meant to say is that comparing The Killing Joke with the Penguin in Batman Returns is stupid. It is clearly obvious that such random book cannot have influence on a character COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the characters in The Killing Joke. Even the story itself is a little different.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
Well, you forget that influence is influence, not the letter or a comparison. He liked Killing Joke, there was The Killing Peck, which was kind of similar in story development, yet very different. It probably hit him since he said he didn't like the tone of the first film and didn't get to do much with it. The idea is that they aren't adapting one thing. Pengiun is where he actually changed much of anyone. Loosely based any TKJ/TKP, like the zoo. Here, but not the same.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills I know what influence is. But he said The Killing Joke was a MAJOR influence on his Batman films. But I barely saw any influence, let alone a major one.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
Well, finding it is impossible as it may not be appearent in the film. You have to understand the last shooting draft, still based on everything in the Sam Hamm draft, was based on a time before it released. I have noted at least 2-3 more conclusive things that were changed in light of the comic though.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
That was the first film though. Onto the second, the circus show freaks/alot of other things came from the Killing Joke, while other, the Killing Peck. The Penguin origin story. Some story elements come through on Returns. Its basically a mess to a degree because Burton on pressed on using it more then the producer's allowed. This proves he wanted to use it at least. Again, he didn't like the first's tone and even his dream as I read his 89 film notes, was even darker.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills I was referring to the first film when I said that The Killing Joke didn't have any major influence on it. As for the second film, I am not sure about that. I could kinda see the whole circus show thing as influenced by The Killing Joke. But the website you posted a link for went as far as saying the Joker's origin was used as an inspiration for the Penguin in Returns. I wouldn't go as far as that.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
I was refering to the first film too when talking of 2-3 definite references to the comic.
Now, I re-read all about the origin bit because you make it feel like they took strict things from it. But alas, a missinterpretation. No, they were seeking the rejection from everything aspect. He was rejected by all in both, so in a way, it makes sense. This could from anything, but alas, its what he liked and wanted to use. So be it if it came from there or not.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills
Penguin was raised in the sewers by penguins in the comics? What comic was that? Was it an Elseworld story? Just curious.
From what I heard, Warner Bros gave Burton complete control over Batman Returns.
I didn't have a problem with the tone in Batman '89. Gotham City looked perfect in it. I actually thought the tone was way too dark and too depressing in Returns.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
Penguin's origin is likely a fresh take on the character, like Nolan's origins changes with Two-face having Joker involved phychologically and with the bomb choice game.
As for the tone, it doesn't mean atmosphere alone, but the way of the story. Burton's Joker was darker and more on choas and anarchy. Jack would still play him, but it was more raw, even having the Heath/Ceaser smile going into cheak thing.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills I know Penguin's origin is an origin that's not from the comics (like Two-Face's). But you said that Penguin's origin story in Returns was based or influenced by some Batman comic. So I asked you which comic that idea for the Penguin's origin was taken from.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
Really, I don't remember saying that. I think you are talking about The Killing Peck? Made by Alan Grant, another similarity to the killing joke being the writer's name, freaky. I'll quote the link.
"Obviously, it [TKP] wasn't the basis for the Returns origin. All in all, though, it gave the lonely outcast angle that Burton enhanced, the dangerous homicidal angle to Penguin, and even the use of a zoo as a hideout".
We could also include the kidnapping theme as well.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills You said "Onto the second, the circus show freaks/alot of other things came from the Killing Joke, while other, the Killing Peck. The Penguin origin story." I probably misunderstood your comment. I thought you said the Penguin's origin was taken from The Killing Peck.
I can't relate the kidnapping theme with The Killing Joke. The Joker kidnapped Jim Gordon to drive him insane. The Penguin kidnapped those children to drown them in the sewers.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
The rest of penuin is indeed made up and based on his origin change, based upon his rejection as he was the first born in his family as well. I myself was confused on how this Penguin fit after learning more on him in the day, however, there is alot of references to things he'd done in the comic, as well as his more agressive dark side within Killing Peck/other comics. So, I have some respect for this take on him, but its a stretch to say he IS the penguin in the comics.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills Now that I think about it, the kidnapping of first-born children scenario would work great for the Mad Hatter if he appears in a future Batman film (since he does that in the comics).
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
Yeah, that would probably be good for the Mad Hatter. If they can make it creepy, it will work out even better.
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@FireFistShikamaru
I meant "still shouldn't screw the story over"
silenceofthehills 1 year ago
@silenceofthehills
DC themselves have confirmed that Modern Age Batman is the most accurate portrayal of Batman within comics. When he was killing people, they were still working on the character. After that, they tried a campier take but that didn't work either. He was only perfected in the 80's.
Did you know that Batman started out as a ripoff of a character called the Shadow? When he got rid of his gun, he became his own character.
FireFistShikamaru 1 year ago