I'd add the criterion of "necessary" to the logical syllogisms he's discussing. A model of God can make perfect sense and have demonstrated premises, but not be the best explanation of the facts. It's like calling gravity "God"; you can demonstrate that gravity exists, but it's unnecessary to call it "God".
It's interesting...the proportion of people who dislike Matt's arguments on YouTube is nowhere near the proportion of theists who can uphold their claims in his presence.
I mean like, I mean like, I mean like.. It sounds like he is trying to convince himself more than anything, and for certain he does not have any kind of actual argument.
Love the "brute force fact" notion of the Universe. The Universe isn't a something proscriptive, it is descriptive. It describes itself and the laws & constants that make it happen
@HorrorIllogium It's really quite unfair to say that the caller sounds "retarded". Perhaps you meant to say that he sounded mentally lazy, or half-asleep, or was perhaps bored from watching too many reruns on TV while munching on high-cholesterol snacks while propping up his feet on a giant Bible. But "retarded"? No, you can't let him off the hook that easily.
I mention the Neutrinos because they are just discovering that it is now that it maybe faster than the speed of light.
Matt and Tracy are actually being dishonest about the manifestion claim trying to deflect immateriality- that is why the cut the caller. They scrambled and avoid going to the basics. Usually the show is good at owning a caller, but they cut the caller and spend half the clip reframing the arguement without a rebuttal to to not expose the reframing as illogical fallacy.
Theoretical physics has been a great example of not having a shred of evidence. Eventually the discoveries come decades or 100's years later. Neutrino's was postulated in 1930's, they were not discovered until 25 years later.
The Atheist show does it's best to dodge and weave immaterial- Atheism can only have a case in a world of pure materialism. And they also cut the caller off becuase he exposes the problem of infinite egress to an argument.
@joelarnda That is the best part about science, it can change its mind on things, If only religion could do the same. They are not dodging the immaterial at all, the caller is claiming that some things are immaterial, but he could not provide a single example of such a thing.
@joelarnda The infinite regress is a fundamental problem to theism. If the universe is so complex that it requires a creator in order to create it then surely God must be just as, if not more complex than the universe he created, which begs the question of what created God and so on into infinite regress. Posing God as the answer to the question just makes more questions, whereas I am perfectly fine with saying that we simply don’t know how the universe began, hopefully one day we will.
Find manifestation that the universe was created, assert the universe was created, define god, find manifestation of god, assert god's existence, find manifestation that god made the universe, assert that link
The order he does it in:
Assert that god exists, assert that he created the universe, assert that the universe was created, at no point find a manifestation of any of these claims
@Ician100 I disagree with you, sir. Philosophy allows us to examine our own lives to become more thoughtful about what we believe, and I shudder to imagine where we would be without logic. Logic is essential to our very survival as a species. Granted, we also need evidence-based inquiry if we want our beliefs to be consistent with what we observe in the world.
I'll have to agree with Tracie here. In Mathematics, I prove statements about constructions that I've defined, but ultimately, there's nothing in the proof that says that what I defined actually manifests itself in the universe. All I can say is "if X is a connected, compact, 2-manifold without boundary, then it can be written as the connect sum of spheres, projective planes, and tori." I cannot, however, claim that any such X exists without going outside my hut and showing you one.
Hm, I'll have to disagree. If someone were able to provide an actual logical, coherent argument for god that would be quite impressive on it's own. I wouldn't regard it as *proof* for the existence of a god, but it would be EVIDENCE, then we would have at least something to actually argue over. Most of what we know about quantum physics has been hypothetical for a long time until we could demonstrate in experiments too. Right now it's more like make up shit and hope noone notices.
@narutofan9999 I would say that quantum physics wasn't purely hypothetical for very long. The photoelectric effect gave pretty decent reason to believe that there was something going on with quantized energy very early on. More importantly, quantum theory cleared up problems with the old theories while still obeying the old theories at higher energy levels. The God hypothesis doesn't offer anything new in terms of explanatory power in the same way that QM did. But that all is beside my point.
@narutofan9999 I disagree that being able to provide a coherent logical argument for something counts as evidence of its existence. For example, I can argue that I am Napoleon Bonaparte in a completely coherent way. That does not provide any evidence that I am actually Napoleon. In fact, there are infinitely many coherent worldviews. For instance, the world was created 5 seconds ago. Or 1 hour ago. Or 1.001 hours ago. Or 1.000001 hours ago. These worldviews are completely coherent.
@Ician100 Aren't those two things the basis of science? (granted science is a philosophy of evidence , ie naturalism, who's roots lie in logic and mathematics.) consequently isn't it the only thing that has really 'worked' so far. IE science has made so many advances in our lifestyle that we wouldn't recognize this world if it were to be without science. Waste of time.....not really.
@BlckSbthMan There's no evidence of a worldwide flood occurring ever. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. If the story of Noah's Ark is true, then the gene pool of every species would not be as diverse as it is today. Since the gene pools of most species is quite diverse, including humans, the worldwide flood couldn't have happened. Also, even if there was a huge flood, that doesn't prove a god caused it.
@WhosAsking03 Hey now, I'm not saying there's evidence of God. I'm saying there WOULD be if he was real, like you said, if God really flooded the earth, there would be physical evidence of that.
I was mocking the notion of there being physical evidence of God's existence.
@Angelalynx999 Theists are use to lying. How can they get away from it? Meaning, they spend their whole life justifying the falsities of their religion. This can only infect their ability to reason well in everyday activities...
its funny of how gravity is actually material, like all the forces in the universe..... forces manifest in photons, bosons etc.... gravity manifests itself in the higgs boson, a particle that scientists are looking for at particle accelerators :P
@iliveon funny thing is we have all the evidence for it, we just cant see it.... just like the bosons previous to it.... with god/s they " know" he/she/they is/are there, and they are looking for evidence to support it, kind of the wrong way to approach things :P
Slavery was also not what we know as slavery today. It was what we would now call 'bonded indemniture'. What happened was if a person was in dire straits financially, he could choose to become a servant for someone else for a specified time. The slave was treated very well and the important thing to know was that it was a consentual arrangement. The only people the Jews were commanded to kill were those who practised child sacrifice. The ironic thing was that after the Torah spread...[cont'd]
@koyunbaba73 No you are a damn lie. READ YOUR BIBLE for how many times an owner can whip his slave. For how they should pierce a slave's ear. How you can own a slave forever. Stop being an apologist for a clear immoral book. Go kill the first thing that walks into the door and offer it to God.
@koyunbaba73 "Defamation is the refuge of non-thinkers. Don't waste my time with your nonsense."
That's a weak-ass excuse to not address real issues. It's not defamation to call someone a liar if they in fact are obviously spewing falsehoods knowingly. Which you clearly are with respect to slavery. If you know enough of the apologetics to know about 'bonded indemniture' you should bloody well also know that this only applied to other Jews. There were no laws regarding letting non-Jews go.
@Gnomefro 3 things: "Love thy neighbor as thyself. I am God." "Love the stranger for you were strangers in Egypt." Jews were enjoined to love and respect to non-Jews. You have to compare that Jewish civilization of that time to other civilizations of that time! It makes no sense to compare ancient Judaism to modern life. The ironic thing is that if you take a look at the worst aspects of ancient Judaism, they are still far more decent and compassionate than the atheistic track record.
@Gnomefro Now that you've called me a liar, let's see how honest you are about owning up to the contributions to humanity of modern atheism. I'd like to begin with a quotation: “The Ten Commandments have lost their validity. Conscience is a Jewish invention, it is a blemish like circumcision.” Now I know the context of that statement. Who said it and what did it mean? Look it up. How you respond, will say a great deal to me about YOUR honesty.
@koyunbaba73 Also, the Jews did in fact enslave non-Jews. To take one example. Look at Leviticus 25:44 where it clearly states that non-Jewish slaves may be bought, treated as property, and passing them to children as permanent inheritance.
"You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way."
They also took sex slaves by force, like in Numbers 31, where they abduct the 32000 virgin Midianites they didn't slaugher.
@koyunbaba73 Frankly, your defamation claim applies far better to yourself. Although I simply don't believe you're a non-thinker. The evidence suggests that you're lying for Jesus.
@Gnomefro The last thing I am is a liar. Who have I defamed? I'm tired of rehashing the same tedious arguments with atheists, so I will explain this to you once. I once had the same overt hostility towards religion, and like people here, I would seize upon nasty sounding verses and throw it in religious people's faces, only to find that for each accusation I made, there was an explanation. I learned that if you want to know the merits of a belief system, judge its adherents. Same for atheism.
I also want to respectfully ask atheists this question: It seems to me that atheists are far more active in proselytizing their message than Christians are in proselytizing theirs. Why is it so important to you that people give up their belief in God and become atheists? I know for atheists on the Left, God is a big problem politically, but if you're not doing so for political reasons, then why is spreading atheism so important to you?
@koyunbaba73 Because "faith" is mental poison. It robs people of the ability to discern truth and evaluate reality. BTW I am not on the "left" and even if I was God is not a problem for those that are.
Does psychosis exist? It manifests. Does love exist?
Now, what prevents us from asserting that a force on the human mind, so strong and crazy as religion, is not, in fact or potential, a manifestation of God.
As opposed to, for instance, Leprechauns.
Specifically, what allows us to DENY that this is a likely manifestation, given its hold on the human mind that is so astonishing?
"Here's why, and I promise I'll let you answer"......no actually I'll interrupt you ,play semantics then hang up on you before you get a chance to answer.
atheists are so moronic. grandpa came from soup after rain fell on a cooling earth billions of years ago.they love to hid behind billions of years. Try giving comfort to the folks in arizona with atheist madness. they want proof and the proof has manifested in eveything that has been created around them. It's their blatant love of homosexuality and sexual perversions that drive them to wilful disbelief. ATHEISM IS MENTAL MASTURBATION. lol.
I don't know how many times he's asked that very simple question and he neeeeeevvvvvveeeerrrrrr gets an answer. Wading through the nonsensical bullshit of those callers, week after week, must be tiresome.
Wow, I've never thought about the fine tuning argument like this before...this is an interesting perspective. And by that, I mean looking at the earth from the perspective of an outcome rather than the perspective of a goal. Personally, I think it's possible that our existence is a goal of some very powerful being at the beginning. But it also seems possible that our existence was not a goal and that we aren't cared about.
@chyckenfeet I know, eh? How *dare* we narrowmindely rely on only testable claims backed by sound evidence! It makes the Baby Jeebus cry each and every time ;-)
Anyway, I just discovered this show today, and I've discovered a disturbing trend among theists that I do not see among the majority of atheists (although exceptions exist). That is:
Atheists construct their own arguments and point out the fallacies of theistic arguments using formal logic (and as such seem to be well read in the subject).
Theists do not use formal logic, and instead use what they believe to be logic, so it ends up being deceptive.
Cesar sounds like the kind of idiot who regularly got his ass kicked in the school yard because he was unable to control his impulse to talk pure shit.
@69Thrasha69 why hes an individual george bush doesnt make all white american people look like fools he only make himself look like a fool as is some hispanic guy gets the higest IQ doesnt mean hispanics are more intelectually capable that the most of the people is just by his own merits
A really excellent point by Tracie, toward the end. It amounts to: the only way we have to know about the physical world is science--"logical" conclusions about reality (in terms of determining new physical realities) has an ABYSMAL track record. That is simply the realm of science, and science and the scientific method are simply the best (and only) tools we've found for elucidating reliable "facts" about the physical world.
How false these people are. Its disappointing to see how people cannot accept or understand God. Do you not know that what is impossible with man is possible with God? Shame on you mankind for the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. Do not think you are higher than God or smarter, trust in the Lord and lean not unto thine own understanding for you understand falsely. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
You don't actually pay attention to these videos, do you? Your god-thing appears to be nothing but another mythical god, just like all the others, and has not manifested itself in any way that we can see. That points to it being another man-made god.
Until you come up with the first shred of actual evidence, stop denouncing everyone for not believing in your ridiculous and horrific fairy-tales, and blow it out your ass, you self-righteous loon.
I know the truth isn't pleasant, but I can't do other than seek the truth. And religion had none of it. If you're happier deluding yourself, by all means, stay there. But don't attack others for having healthy skepticism.
How is what I said garbage? I stated the plain truth, nothing more or less. You don't appear to like hearing the truth about your faith.
I didnt say what you said was garbage, i was saying that about the vid. Its garbage, they think they know it all but they are wrong. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
i suggest you read Hebrews Chapter 11 and see how faith is important.
Ah, sorry, misread. Anyway, they don't appear to think they know it all, and I've watched many of their videos. What they know, they know well. They've easily refuted every argument that they've been given on the show.
I've read the bible. I read it a few years ago, when I started having doubts about my beliefs. Only months after I had finished reading it, I could no longer cling to my dying faith. Have you ever read it, cover to cover? There are some horrific things in there.
Faith, believing without proof. Wouldn't you expect con-men to stress faith as much as your religious leaders do? Face it, you're nothing but cattle to most of them. They string you along, and milk you for everything they can get out of you.
Did you know that the bald guy there was training to be a minister? While studying arguments against the religion, so he could counter them better, he lost his faith! Remarkable story, when you hear it all.
Regarding the "incivility" expressed by some commentary, I can deeply empathize with the hosts. The caller obviously does not understand how evidence works. Most Creationists don't. They jump right in and make assertions and assumptions right off the bat, and then base everything off of those. "The universe exists, therefore God created it" is the most common. They don't understand the 2nd part is not evidenced by the first part. That would be like saying Youtube exists, therefore I created it.
The caller obviously could not understand that each time they made an opening statement, they were making an assumption, and not providing a evidentiary statement upon which to base continued discussion. The hosts could reiterate the founding basis of the discussion only so many times, before any human being would get frustrated and want to move on to a new caller. You can't debate with a rock, so sometimes you just have to steer around it. Dumb people should not call into this show.
@LaerenMisha LOL! If dumb people didn't call in, it wouldn't be very fun, now would it? I love seeing (hearing) these morons make fools out of themselves and not even realize it.
Is it me, or does this caller sound just like that loon who goes around digging holes in his yard and uploads videos of it to youtube? I forget his screen name though...
"I hate to keep stopping the very moment you get started..."
Yeah, so stop doing it, Matt! Sometimes you are far too aggressive. At least let him get out a couple of sentences maybe, and THEN judge if he's not justifying his thesis. That's what the first sentence is: THESIS, MAtt. THEN comes the justification, so give people a freaking chance. Before anyone thinks I'm sympathetic at all to his case, I'm not; I'm not too far from being a strong atheist, myself.
Dropping the pen is insipid. The atheists let me down on this one because they were reacting so childishly to someone that was the furthest thing from antagonistic even if they disagree with his points.
@StopSpamming1 yah it's almost obvious at least very likely when listening to the tone and tempo of his voice. that he's reading something, it's not something he came up with, it's something he read, felt was profound and took it as a version of his own opinion.
@StopSpamming1 I think its a bit of an Oxymoron. They aren't stupid per say, but they are certainly brainwashed, and looking outside the "approved talking points" of the Bible and apologetics will send them to Hell. And Matt and Tracie are right, Christians are thinking of existence as goal not as a random happening from just the right "ingredients".
@StopSpamming1 Typical atheist MO-dismiss believers as stupid and that ends that. There's nothing that would make a non-believer believe because he doesn't want to believe. There's no proof, of course that's so. So this exercise is entirely pointless. Since there is no proof either way, the best thing to get at is probabilities. Do you really believe that in 13 billion years, random gasses could (on their own) result in a Mozart symphony? That is more improbable than the existence of a Creator.
Show me a god and I'll believe that god exists. Easy. Any measurable and reproducible evidence will suffice.
Why don't you ask yourself why there is no direct proof? Why do you need to revert to probabilities, which automatically lead you into absurdities? You seem to think that "there is no proof either way" represents a real dichotomy and a stalemate position. Wrong!
@adam3251 See, you call it 'fucking magic', I call it creation. I don't claim to prove God's existence, I only say that it is more likely that there was a creator than it all happened on its own. Aside from creation, let's talk about meaning. If you think it all came about by chance, then (if you are honest) you would have to say that there is no meaning. Life is ultimately meaningless. Is that what you think? Dennis Prager said that if there is meaning there had to be a meaning giver. I agree.
@koyunbaba73 No, I can (and do) say that there is meaning in life. I also agree that if there is meaning to life there must be a meaning giver and I am that giver. I decide what my meaning is. BTW it doesn't matter what you call it matter doesn't come from nothing and matter just doesn't "poof" into existence like you claim it does. Also BTW you say there is no proof. Then why believe? If there is no evidence than your god has all the properties of non-existence. Why waste your time?
@adam3251 Thoughtful arguments. What I mean by 'meaning' is an all encompassing macro-meaning. I like to read but I wouldn't say that is the meaning of life, just what I find meaningful in my life. If there were only the kind of meaning you're talking about, then there is no meaning in the existence of all those who came before you. That is the atheist position. Also, belief occurs in the absence of proof. Do you believe in anything that is unproven?
@koyunbaba73 You are correct. There is no universal meaning to life. That is what makes life so precious. There is a finite time here and it must be used wisely. Belief does occur in the absence of evidence, it is called faith and no I don't have, and don't want any either. BTW just to clarify the language, proofs apply to math. Evidence applies to science and reason.
@adam3251 Do you believe in integrity, love, or beauty? How about honour or kinship? None of these are evidentiary. Do you like music? There is NO evidence for why music is so effective. I would bet that you appreciate at least SOME music, or that you have some concept of love or beauty. So if you don't believe in God because there is no evidence for God, then why would you believe in any of the things I mentioned? Faith has its place. Accepting that doesn't make you any less rational or smart.
@koyunbaba73 I do believe in integrity, love, beauty, honor, etc. But these are all necessarily subjective and subject to opinion. Some find beauty in Heavy Metal music, some don't. Are you saying that God is subjective? As for kinship, I can provide evidence of kinship. I have a birth certificate, and sworn statements if necessary. Faith has only one place and that is in the acceptance that there are other minds. Other than that evidence and reason rule the day.
@adam3251 God may be subjective in the sense that different religions and individuals define God differently, but there is only one external reality, hence God can only be one way. I happen to believe in the God described in the Bible, specifically the first five books, known collectively as the Torah. I think we're at an impasse in terms of theology. Perhaps we can find common ground in the sphere of personal values. I get my values from the Bible. Where do you get your values from?
@koyunbaba73 Before we move on I want to make sure we are in agreement. You say there is no evidence for god and that god is purely subjective. As morals. If you get your morals from the first 5 books of the Bible than you must have a difficult time with life. Do you think it is ok to sell your children into slavery? The Bible says it is. Do you believe that a women who has been raped should be put to death? The Bible says she should. Do you think it is ok to beat your servants? The Bible...
@adam3251 BTW I have answered every one of your questions here is one of mine. Given that there is no evidence for your claims, how do you know that you are right and not believing in some fairytale or a flat out hoax? What if you are wrong? Than you have wasted your life chasing a myth. Wouldn't you rather spend your time in an honest search for the truth? I certainly do. Let go of the sheep herder myths and join us in the wonders of human endeavor. You won't regret it.
@koyunbaba73 I get my values in part from evolutionary motivations and by mutual agreement with those I am in particular groups with. If you get your values from the Torah, are you Hasidic? How to you justify the advocation of slavery, child murder, rape, torture and genocide that is in the Torah? Would you sell your children into slaver? Beyond all this, how do you connect the Torah with reality? Why do you believe this? This is the most important question.
@adam3251 Look, you've got it all wrong about the Torah. It would take several lifetimes to try to undo your misconceptions about it. There are thousands of years worth of commentary that is essential to understanding it. So I can't even begin to try to explain it to you. I will say 2 brief things: The Torah was the greatest leap forward for humanity. Before the Torah was given, the world was one of ubiquitous child sacrifice, lawlessness, rape, incest, barbarity. [cont'd]
@adam3251 [cont'd] The Torah put an end to all of this (at least for the Jews). The amazing thing about the law regarding putting disobedient children to death is, that before that law, parents did put disobedient children to death. This law took that ability out of the hands of the parents and made it the responsibility of the Sanhedrin (council). And they never did it! They never said that a parent made a convincing enough case to carry out that killing. [cont'd]
@adam3251 Read my comment in the middle please. It is a continuation which I forgot to address to you. Now, what I was saying is, that the Jews were commanded to go to war against certain people, invariably because they practised child sacrifice. The ironic thing is, that as the values of the Torah spread, other peoples began giving up the practise of child sacrifice. Finally, let me add that no Jew, no matter how observant, follows only the Torah without any suplementary commentary. [cont'd]
@adam3251 I don't expect that my explanation will change your perceptions, but I had to defend the Torah against the charges you made against it. But I won't do so again. Now I'll ask you a question: I have the wisdom to recognize the value of the wisdom of the giants who came before me; Isn't it a bit arrogant to think you can dispense with all of the wealth of wisdom that came out of the Jewish and Christian tradition? In whose footsteps do you stand?
@koyunbaba73 Before I answer your questions I just want to make sure the score is straight. You don't have evidence for God and you can't defend the Torah. I do not dispense with the wisdom that came out of the Jewish and Christian tradition. So nice try on that one. I just don't believe in their God. Having answered that I have one more question for you. Isn't it a bit arrogant to think you can dispense with all of the wealth of wisdom that came out of the Muslim, Hindu, Buddahist traditions?
@adam3251 No. And I don't see why the four paragraphs I wrote yesterday don't constitute a defence. I never claimed to have evidence for God only that I believed it is more likely that God exists, so nice try on that one. I don't believe you for one minute when you say that you don't dispense with the wisdom that came out of the Jewish and Christian tradition. You said yourself that you base your values on evolution and mutual agreements. That is antithetical to Judeo/Christian teachings.
@koyunbaba73 My apologies. I had not taken notice of those posts. So you think that slavery is just, under the right circumstances? Do you think that child sacrifice is ok? The torah agrees with both of these things. Do you? It also condones rape, child murder, and genocide, again under certain circumstances. Would you like specific passages. There is nothing good in that book.
@adam3251 Well, it's unfortunate that you see it that way. Your comments reveal more about you than about "that book". That book has done more for the betterment of mankind than any other document. The proof of this is the post-biblical world of nazism and communism. Dropping the bible has resulted in a much more cruel world. Among the many unattractive attributes possesed by atheists, the least attractive is ingratitude. Thank you for the dialogue, but we have nothing further to discuss.
@koyunbaba73 My comments do reveal much about my attitudes. They reveal an honest search for the truth and the rejection of the collection of bronze age fairy tales, as told by backward sheep herders. The Bible is the most and destructive collection of documents the world has ever known. From wholesale genocide, witch hunts and pogroms against the Jews, that document has been used to justify the worst actions perpetrated by humanity. I understand your shame. It is difficult to defend evil.
"atheism of the gaps"? hahah! perfect! the caller unwittingly realizes that the best procedure for gaps in knowledge is to suspend judgement! :D
rtarbinar 1 week ago
I'd add the criterion of "necessary" to the logical syllogisms he's discussing. A model of God can make perfect sense and have demonstrated premises, but not be the best explanation of the facts. It's like calling gravity "God"; you can demonstrate that gravity exists, but it's unnecessary to call it "God".
YaleBreaker 1 month ago
It's interesting...the proportion of people who dislike Matt's arguments on YouTube is nowhere near the proportion of theists who can uphold their claims in his presence.
YaleBreaker 1 month ago
I mean like, I mean like, I mean like.. It sounds like he is trying to convince himself more than anything, and for certain he does not have any kind of actual argument.
1csrichardson 2 months ago
Comment removed
1csrichardson 2 months ago
Love the "brute force fact" notion of the Universe. The Universe isn't a something proscriptive, it is descriptive. It describes itself and the laws & constants that make it happen
drfoxcourt 2 months ago
This guy sounds retarded.
HorrorIllogium 4 months ago 2
@HorrorIllogium i would not say that he sounds retarded. illinformed nasal creationist christian - sure
m2ger8 3 months ago
@HorrorIllogium It's really quite unfair to say that the caller sounds "retarded". Perhaps you meant to say that he sounded mentally lazy, or half-asleep, or was perhaps bored from watching too many reruns on TV while munching on high-cholesterol snacks while propping up his feet on a giant Bible. But "retarded"? No, you can't let him off the hook that easily.
NeosimianSapiens 3 months ago
Hee hee hee, Tracie said masturbation.
157626 4 months ago
I mention the Neutrinos because they are just discovering that it is now that it maybe faster than the speed of light.
Matt and Tracy are actually being dishonest about the manifestion claim trying to deflect immateriality- that is why the cut the caller. They scrambled and avoid going to the basics. Usually the show is good at owning a caller, but they cut the caller and spend half the clip reframing the arguement without a rebuttal to to not expose the reframing as illogical fallacy.
joelarnda 5 months ago
Theoretical physics has been a great example of not having a shred of evidence. Eventually the discoveries come decades or 100's years later. Neutrino's was postulated in 1930's, they were not discovered until 25 years later.
The Atheist show does it's best to dodge and weave immaterial- Atheism can only have a case in a world of pure materialism. And they also cut the caller off becuase he exposes the problem of infinite egress to an argument.
Prove infininty! I want evidence!!!
joelarnda 5 months ago
@joelarnda That is the best part about science, it can change its mind on things, If only religion could do the same. They are not dodging the immaterial at all, the caller is claiming that some things are immaterial, but he could not provide a single example of such a thing.
ClosedAperture 5 months ago
@joelarnda The infinite regress is a fundamental problem to theism. If the universe is so complex that it requires a creator in order to create it then surely God must be just as, if not more complex than the universe he created, which begs the question of what created God and so on into infinite regress. Posing God as the answer to the question just makes more questions, whereas I am perfectly fine with saying that we simply don’t know how the universe began, hopefully one day we will.
ClosedAperture 5 months ago
I'm going to steal Tracy's term "mental masturbation," that's great
whiteuzl 5 months ago
The oranges of the universe is not proof of a god.
Draginvry2 5 months ago
Oranges of the universe.
cmbasnett 6 months ago 5
Damn. Tracie and Matt, the big guns. They eat Christian apologetics for breakfast. Two levels above the caller.
greensageb 6 months ago 19
@greensageb two? TWO? I'd say you're out by a few there.
Also, I think sometimes due to different styles, Tracie and Matt together are less than the sum of their parts.
SPACKlick 1 month ago
@greensageb I'd hate to phone these up, as much as I feel theyre trying to be nice there is a certain passive agressiveness.
I mean I think Matt realising he wont get to heaven has just had a weight lifted off his shoulders.
gotsda 3 weeks ago
The order we should do things in:
Find manifestation that the universe was created, assert the universe was created, define god, find manifestation of god, assert god's existence, find manifestation that god made the universe, assert that link
The order he does it in:
Assert that god exists, assert that he created the universe, assert that the universe was created, at no point find a manifestation of any of these claims
And they think that we're the morons
AntiMatterWave 6 months ago 4
lmao the caller sounds like Kip from Napoleon Dynamite.
Concertina43210 7 months ago
@Ician100 I disagree with you, sir. Philosophy allows us to examine our own lives to become more thoughtful about what we believe, and I shudder to imagine where we would be without logic. Logic is essential to our very survival as a species. Granted, we also need evidence-based inquiry if we want our beliefs to be consistent with what we observe in the world.
chuckinator0 7 months ago
I'll have to agree with Tracie here. In Mathematics, I prove statements about constructions that I've defined, but ultimately, there's nothing in the proof that says that what I defined actually manifests itself in the universe. All I can say is "if X is a connected, compact, 2-manifold without boundary, then it can be written as the connect sum of spheres, projective planes, and tori." I cannot, however, claim that any such X exists without going outside my hut and showing you one.
chuckinator0 7 months ago
@chuckinator0
Hm, I'll have to disagree. If someone were able to provide an actual logical, coherent argument for god that would be quite impressive on it's own. I wouldn't regard it as *proof* for the existence of a god, but it would be EVIDENCE, then we would have at least something to actually argue over. Most of what we know about quantum physics has been hypothetical for a long time until we could demonstrate in experiments too. Right now it's more like make up shit and hope noone notices.
narutofan9999 6 months ago
@narutofan9999 I would say that quantum physics wasn't purely hypothetical for very long. The photoelectric effect gave pretty decent reason to believe that there was something going on with quantized energy very early on. More importantly, quantum theory cleared up problems with the old theories while still obeying the old theories at higher energy levels. The God hypothesis doesn't offer anything new in terms of explanatory power in the same way that QM did. But that all is beside my point.
chuckinator0 6 months ago
@narutofan9999 I disagree that being able to provide a coherent logical argument for something counts as evidence of its existence. For example, I can argue that I am Napoleon Bonaparte in a completely coherent way. That does not provide any evidence that I am actually Napoleon. In fact, there are infinitely many coherent worldviews. For instance, the world was created 5 seconds ago. Or 1 hour ago. Or 1.001 hours ago. Or 1.000001 hours ago. These worldviews are completely coherent.
chuckinator0 6 months ago
Quite an impressive demolition of feeble ramblings from a foolish theist.
sayconfucious 7 months ago 3
what did matt hang up in the end? i didnt really understand what the caller said
jhibbitt1 7 months ago
Caesar is a huge waste of time.
RussianAssassin21 7 months ago
@Ician100 Aren't those two things the basis of science? (granted science is a philosophy of evidence , ie naturalism, who's roots lie in logic and mathematics.) consequently isn't it the only thing that has really 'worked' so far. IE science has made so many advances in our lifestyle that we wouldn't recognize this world if it were to be without science. Waste of time.....not really.
Horathgar42 8 months ago
wedonunderstandeverythingaboutgraviny...
aegisgfx 8 months ago 2
I can't call him stupid because of his accent, but it really doesn't help.
Forserean 9 months ago
Did he say 'Atheism of the gaps' at 3:30
What the hell is that?
TheOmegajuice 9 months ago
@TheOmegajuice "science of the gaps", basically.. or I think that's what he meant to say. This guy aint too bright nonetheless :p
idreamtofflight 9 months ago
@idreamtofflight So 'we don't know what the answer is, there must be some kind of scientific answer'...
That's an odd thing to criticise.
TheOmegajuice 9 months ago
@TheOmegajuice yeah... he's batshit crazy.
idreamtofflight 9 months ago
@TheOmegajuice I'd be willing to be its the next big wave by William Lane Craig or some other 'philosopher' err i mean apologist.
Horathgar42 8 months ago
@thatamazinggeek Amen to that. Religion is full of holes and people ignore it.
BlckSbthMan 9 months ago
@thatamazinggeek Yeah, prayer does very badly in tests. Haha.
BlckSbthMan 9 months ago
God can't be measured in the physical universe?
What about the world fucking flood?
BlckSbthMan 9 months ago
@BlckSbthMan There's no evidence of a worldwide flood occurring ever. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. If the story of Noah's Ark is true, then the gene pool of every species would not be as diverse as it is today. Since the gene pools of most species is quite diverse, including humans, the worldwide flood couldn't have happened. Also, even if there was a huge flood, that doesn't prove a god caused it.
WhosAsking03 9 months ago
@WhosAsking03 Hey now, I'm not saying there's evidence of God. I'm saying there WOULD be if he was real, like you said, if God really flooded the earth, there would be physical evidence of that.
I was mocking the notion of there being physical evidence of God's existence.
BlckSbthMan 9 months ago
From koyunbaba73: "The last thing I am is a liar." - Ironically this is a lie.
Angelalynx999 10 months ago
@Angelalynx999 Theists are use to lying. How can they get away from it? Meaning, they spend their whole life justifying the falsities of their religion. This can only infect their ability to reason well in everyday activities...
yourjunk420 9 months ago
its funny of how gravity is actually material, like all the forces in the universe..... forces manifest in photons, bosons etc.... gravity manifests itself in the higgs boson, a particle that scientists are looking for at particle accelerators :P
atheismtim 10 months ago
@atheismtim hehe we still don't know its there. We are looking for it! Similar to God!
iliveon 10 months ago
@iliveon funny thing is we have all the evidence for it, we just cant see it.... just like the bosons previous to it.... with god/s they " know" he/she/they is/are there, and they are looking for evidence to support it, kind of the wrong way to approach things :P
atheismtim 10 months ago
@atheismtim yum
iliveon 10 months ago
Slavery was also not what we know as slavery today. It was what we would now call 'bonded indemniture'. What happened was if a person was in dire straits financially, he could choose to become a servant for someone else for a specified time. The slave was treated very well and the important thing to know was that it was a consentual arrangement. The only people the Jews were commanded to kill were those who practised child sacrifice. The ironic thing was that after the Torah spread...[cont'd]
koyunbaba73 10 months ago
@koyunbaba73 No you are a damn lie. READ YOUR BIBLE for how many times an owner can whip his slave. For how they should pierce a slave's ear. How you can own a slave forever. Stop being an apologist for a clear immoral book. Go kill the first thing that walks into the door and offer it to God.
iliveon 10 months ago
@iliveon Defamation is the refuge of non-thinkers. Don't waste my time with your nonsense.
koyunbaba73 10 months ago
@koyunbaba73 I dare you to look up slavery in the bible
iliveon 10 months ago
@koyunbaba73 "Defamation is the refuge of non-thinkers. Don't waste my time with your nonsense."
That's a weak-ass excuse to not address real issues. It's not defamation to call someone a liar if they in fact are obviously spewing falsehoods knowingly. Which you clearly are with respect to slavery. If you know enough of the apologetics to know about 'bonded indemniture' you should bloody well also know that this only applied to other Jews. There were no laws regarding letting non-Jews go.
Gnomefro 10 months ago
@Gnomefro 3 things: "Love thy neighbor as thyself. I am God." "Love the stranger for you were strangers in Egypt." Jews were enjoined to love and respect to non-Jews. You have to compare that Jewish civilization of that time to other civilizations of that time! It makes no sense to compare ancient Judaism to modern life. The ironic thing is that if you take a look at the worst aspects of ancient Judaism, they are still far more decent and compassionate than the atheistic track record.
koyunbaba73 10 months ago
@Gnomefro Now that you've called me a liar, let's see how honest you are about owning up to the contributions to humanity of modern atheism. I'd like to begin with a quotation: “The Ten Commandments have lost their validity. Conscience is a Jewish invention, it is a blemish like circumcision.” Now I know the context of that statement. Who said it and what did it mean? Look it up. How you respond, will say a great deal to me about YOUR honesty.
koyunbaba73 10 months ago
@koyunbaba73 Also, the Jews did in fact enslave non-Jews. To take one example. Look at Leviticus 25:44 where it clearly states that non-Jewish slaves may be bought, treated as property, and passing them to children as permanent inheritance.
"You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way."
They also took sex slaves by force, like in Numbers 31, where they abduct the 32000 virgin Midianites they didn't slaugher.
Gnomefro 10 months ago
@koyunbaba73 Frankly, your defamation claim applies far better to yourself. Although I simply don't believe you're a non-thinker. The evidence suggests that you're lying for Jesus.
Gnomefro 10 months ago
@Gnomefro The last thing I am is a liar. Who have I defamed? I'm tired of rehashing the same tedious arguments with atheists, so I will explain this to you once. I once had the same overt hostility towards religion, and like people here, I would seize upon nasty sounding verses and throw it in religious people's faces, only to find that for each accusation I made, there was an explanation. I learned that if you want to know the merits of a belief system, judge its adherents. Same for atheism.
koyunbaba73 10 months ago
I also want to respectfully ask atheists this question: It seems to me that atheists are far more active in proselytizing their message than Christians are in proselytizing theirs. Why is it so important to you that people give up their belief in God and become atheists? I know for atheists on the Left, God is a big problem politically, but if you're not doing so for political reasons, then why is spreading atheism so important to you?
koyunbaba73 11 months ago
@koyunbaba73 Because "faith" is mental poison. It robs people of the ability to discern truth and evaluate reality. BTW I am not on the "left" and even if I was God is not a problem for those that are.
adam3251 11 months ago
her last statement around 7min...straight Bertrand Russell. beautiful
plato251 11 months ago
Does psychosis exist? It manifests. Does love exist?
Now, what prevents us from asserting that a force on the human mind, so strong and crazy as religion, is not, in fact or potential, a manifestation of God.
As opposed to, for instance, Leprechauns.
Specifically, what allows us to DENY that this is a likely manifestation, given its hold on the human mind that is so astonishing?
mindprism 1 year ago
The wind is just warmth and cool interacting, am i right?
So then, i can see the wind.
JollSSteR 1 year ago
I love the oranges of the universe!
gigisdad 1 year ago
"Here's why, and I promise I'll let you answer"......no actually I'll interrupt you ,play semantics then hang up on you before you get a chance to answer.
pompousprick 1 year ago
@pompousprick How long would you wait for a blathering idiot to get his shit together and make a point?
Fredonia2k 1 year ago
atheists are so moronic. grandpa came from soup after rain fell on a cooling earth billions of years ago.they love to hid behind billions of years. Try giving comfort to the folks in arizona with atheist madness. they want proof and the proof has manifested in eveything that has been created around them. It's their blatant love of homosexuality and sexual perversions that drive them to wilful disbelief. ATHEISM IS MENTAL MASTURBATION. lol.
whiteliketar 1 year ago
@whiteliketar You're doing a character, right?
Fredonia2k 1 year ago
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adam3251 11 months ago
Perfectly said/done Tracie and Matt...★★★★★
Katalyzt
Katalyzt 1 year ago
"WHAT do you believe about god, and WHY".
I don't know how many times he's asked that very simple question and he neeeeeevvvvvveeeerrrrrr gets an answer. Wading through the nonsensical bullshit of those callers, week after week, must be tiresome.
rmcdaniel423 1 year ago
tha dilla aint nuttn to fuk wit
dontliethetruth 1 year ago
Wow, I've never thought about the fine tuning argument like this before...this is an interesting perspective. And by that, I mean looking at the earth from the perspective of an outcome rather than the perspective of a goal. Personally, I think it's possible that our existence is a goal of some very powerful being at the beginning. But it also seems possible that our existence was not a goal and that we aren't cared about.
Ledwix 1 year ago
The ORANGES of the universe??!
Is this what Cesar meant when he said "We're comparing apples and oranges"?
Or was it his nasal/stoner mumbling?
P0weredByPie 1 year ago
oh my god will caesar stop speaking out of his faggy little nasal
jesus FUCKING CHRIST this guys is such a little faggot
russmckinley 1 year ago
lol, "atheism of the gaps" the arrogant view we shouldn't fill gaps in knowledge with unprovable pretenses
chyckenfeet 1 year ago
@chyckenfeet I know, eh? How *dare* we narrowmindely rely on only testable claims backed by sound evidence! It makes the Baby Jeebus cry each and every time ;-)
P0weredByPie 1 year ago
@P0weredByPie Oh, and don't forget, god also kills a kitten.
kolonial72 1 year ago
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chyckenfeet 1 year ago
ORANGE-INS? WTF CESAR?
ByTor190 1 year ago
@ByTor190
TheAtheistJuggernaut 1 year ago
god damn this is one stupid mother fucker i can't even listen to this shit without killing myself
jetsamjetsam 1 year ago 20
@jetsamjetsam lol
antibulletdodger101 1 year ago
@jetsamjetsam are you dead ?T_T
tovartalero 1 year ago
@jetsamjetsam how did you write that then? :P
t1mel1ne 10 months ago
This was recorded on my birthday!! ^_^
Anyway, I just discovered this show today, and I've discovered a disturbing trend among theists that I do not see among the majority of atheists (although exceptions exist). That is:
Atheists construct their own arguments and point out the fallacies of theistic arguments using formal logic (and as such seem to be well read in the subject).
Theists do not use formal logic, and instead use what they believe to be logic, so it ends up being deceptive.
fuser158 1 year ago
Did the caller really claim that Matt was playing 'Atheism of the Gaps'? What, exactly, is he talking about?
Acorafication 1 year ago
@Acorafication Some nonsense term I heard William Lane Craig say before.
reasonformirrors 1 year ago
@reasonformirrors Ah. Explains why it makes no fucking sense, then.
Acorafication 1 year ago
Cesar sounds like the kind of idiot who regularly got his ass kicked in the school yard because he was unable to control his impulse to talk pure shit.
coolal19 1 year ago
This guy sounds stoned.
Judasbm 1 year ago
This guy has read/watched too much William Lane Craig.
hotjohn321 1 year ago 13
@hotjohn321 Or been home schooled.
lewisner 8 months ago
Cesar = stupidity personified
ThieleM 1 year ago
he sounds like hes falling asleep
LauraKathleen05 1 year ago
I don't have evidence that caeser was sucking on a bong whilst on the phone. I'm pretty much willing to take a tiny leap of faith though lol
sum1otosh1 1 year ago 3
lol "Orangins of the univers"
MrRDuggs 1 year ago 2
The caller makes hispanics sound stupid
69Thrasha69 1 year ago
@69Thrasha69 why hes an individual george bush doesnt make all white american people look like fools he only make himself look like a fool as is some hispanic guy gets the higest IQ doesnt mean hispanics are more intelectually capable that the most of the people is just by his own merits
RICKYXIMO 1 year ago
hey Matt dont make promises you cant keep ...xD
neoarcadezr 1 year ago
I love Tracie !
eminescinescu 1 year ago
Cesar sounds like Droopy. It's gotta be hard to have a conversation with that.
instereovideos 1 year ago
How many pens do you think they've dropped on this damn show?
IAmTheScum13 1 year ago 15
A really excellent point by Tracie, toward the end. It amounts to: the only way we have to know about the physical world is science--"logical" conclusions about reality (in terms of determining new physical realities) has an ABYSMAL track record. That is simply the realm of science, and science and the scientific method are simply the best (and only) tools we've found for elucidating reliable "facts" about the physical world.
GetMeThere1 1 year ago
There are truly some ignorant people in this world.
msenlightened 1 year ago
They gave soeone with nothing to say over 15 minutes and it didn't get boring. Amazing.
EPR89 1 year ago 2
Is this caller drunk or just from the south he sounds like he dropped out of school on the first day.
erikcjustice 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Its so funny how frustrated the hosts get.
papamike137 1 year ago
Its so funny how frustrated the hosts get.
papamike137 1 year ago
@papamike137
Chatting with brick walls does that to you.
Anon11674 1 year ago
How false these people are. Its disappointing to see how people cannot accept or understand God. Do you not know that what is impossible with man is possible with God? Shame on you mankind for the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. Do not think you are higher than God or smarter, trust in the Lord and lean not unto thine own understanding for you understand falsely. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
eiroight 1 year ago
@eiroight
You don't actually pay attention to these videos, do you? Your god-thing appears to be nothing but another mythical god, just like all the others, and has not manifested itself in any way that we can see. That points to it being another man-made god.
Until you come up with the first shred of actual evidence, stop denouncing everyone for not believing in your ridiculous and horrific fairy-tales, and blow it out your ass, you self-righteous loon.
Anon11674 1 year ago
@Anon11674
i hear what they're sayin and its garbage.
you take care of your life you hear?
eiroight 1 year ago
@eiroight
I know the truth isn't pleasant, but I can't do other than seek the truth. And religion had none of it. If you're happier deluding yourself, by all means, stay there. But don't attack others for having healthy skepticism.
How is what I said garbage? I stated the plain truth, nothing more or less. You don't appear to like hearing the truth about your faith.
Anon11674 1 year ago
@Anon11674
I didnt say what you said was garbage, i was saying that about the vid. Its garbage, they think they know it all but they are wrong. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
i suggest you read Hebrews Chapter 11 and see how faith is important.
eiroight 1 year ago
@eiroight
Ah, sorry, misread. Anyway, they don't appear to think they know it all, and I've watched many of their videos. What they know, they know well. They've easily refuted every argument that they've been given on the show.
I've read the bible. I read it a few years ago, when I started having doubts about my beliefs. Only months after I had finished reading it, I could no longer cling to my dying faith. Have you ever read it, cover to cover? There are some horrific things in there.
Anon11674 1 year ago
@eiroight
Faith, believing without proof. Wouldn't you expect con-men to stress faith as much as your religious leaders do? Face it, you're nothing but cattle to most of them. They string you along, and milk you for everything they can get out of you.
Did you know that the bald guy there was training to be a minister? While studying arguments against the religion, so he could counter them better, he lost his faith! Remarkable story, when you hear it all.
Anon11674 1 year ago
@eiroight I suggest you read chapter 2 in The Alphabet of Manliness to see how important boners are.
Pinworm4 1 year ago
Oranges of the Universe?
Gerafix 2 years ago
moron, just because you say mathematics doesnt mean you know anything about it.
thesparitan 2 years ago
what do people use to breath? LUNGS of course the air exists!!!
DarkKnightBob1o1 2 years ago
the card analogy is PERFECT!
brokeneck 2 years ago
use the card analogy or the trillion dice game of yahtzee. i like em both
keggerous 1 year ago
I love these christians they are hilarious. You can't measure God. LOL What a joke.
tallsmile28 2 years ago 3
Regarding the "incivility" expressed by some commentary, I can deeply empathize with the hosts. The caller obviously does not understand how evidence works. Most Creationists don't. They jump right in and make assertions and assumptions right off the bat, and then base everything off of those. "The universe exists, therefore God created it" is the most common. They don't understand the 2nd part is not evidenced by the first part. That would be like saying Youtube exists, therefore I created it.
LaerenMisha 2 years ago 3
The caller obviously could not understand that each time they made an opening statement, they were making an assumption, and not providing a evidentiary statement upon which to base continued discussion. The hosts could reiterate the founding basis of the discussion only so many times, before any human being would get frustrated and want to move on to a new caller. You can't debate with a rock, so sometimes you just have to steer around it. Dumb people should not call into this show.
LaerenMisha 2 years ago
@LaerenMisha LOL! If dumb people didn't call in, it wouldn't be very fun, now would it? I love seeing (hearing) these morons make fools out of themselves and not even realize it.
Martymer81 2 years ago
i'm in love with tracy! <3
MrBoomable 2 years ago 2
Me, too!
crackerboy82 2 years ago
Is it me, or does this caller sound just like that loon who goes around digging holes in his yard and uploads videos of it to youtube? I forget his screen name though...
pallevader 2 years ago
Jesus Christ, why the fuck is this caller so retarded?
Gerafix 2 years ago
Does this guy call himself seizure ? ^^
Acrimonator 2 years ago
"I hate to keep stopping the very moment you get started..."
Yeah, so stop doing it, Matt! Sometimes you are far too aggressive. At least let him get out a couple of sentences maybe, and THEN judge if he's not justifying his thesis. That's what the first sentence is: THESIS, MAtt. THEN comes the justification, so give people a freaking chance. Before anyone thinks I'm sympathetic at all to his case, I'm not; I'm not too far from being a strong atheist, myself.
GwydionMapDon 2 years ago
Then you hang up. Matt, you are a smart guy, but you are a fucking ass hole.
GwydionMapDon 2 years ago
Dropping the pen is insipid. The atheists let me down on this one because they were reacting so childishly to someone that was the furthest thing from antagonistic even if they disagree with his points.
GwydionMapDon 2 years ago
Wow this is painful. Like torture.
Cesar is a typical wannabe who has read something and now thinks he's really stumbled upon something nobody has thought of.
Mental masturbation is the correct term.
Where are the intelligent theists? Or is that an oxymoron?
StopSpamming1 2 years ago 46
@StopSpamming1 "Intelligent theist" is an oxymoron.
airman122469 1 year ago
@StopSpamming1 yah it's almost obvious at least very likely when listening to the tone and tempo of his voice. that he's reading something, it's not something he came up with, it's something he read, felt was profound and took it as a version of his own opinion.
typical sheeplike behavior
beebobox 1 year ago
@StopSpamming1 I don't think intelligent theists are common.
Malumbrus 1 year ago
@StopSpamming1 I think its a bit of an Oxymoron. They aren't stupid per say, but they are certainly brainwashed, and looking outside the "approved talking points" of the Bible and apologetics will send them to Hell. And Matt and Tracie are right, Christians are thinking of existence as goal not as a random happening from just the right "ingredients".
s8ntmark 1 year ago
@StopSpamming1 Typical atheist MO-dismiss believers as stupid and that ends that. There's nothing that would make a non-believer believe because he doesn't want to believe. There's no proof, of course that's so. So this exercise is entirely pointless. Since there is no proof either way, the best thing to get at is probabilities. Do you really believe that in 13 billion years, random gasses could (on their own) result in a Mozart symphony? That is more improbable than the existence of a Creator.
koyunbaba73 11 months ago
@koyunbaba73
Show me a god and I'll believe that god exists. Easy. Any measurable and reproducible evidence will suffice.
Why don't you ask yourself why there is no direct proof? Why do you need to revert to probabilities, which automatically lead you into absurdities? You seem to think that "there is no proof either way" represents a real dichotomy and a stalemate position. Wrong!
StopSpamming1 11 months ago
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adam3251 11 months ago
@koyunbaba73 "Do you really believe that in 13 billion years, random gasses could (on their own) result in a Mozart symphony?"
That is more likely than a Mozart symphony happening by fucking magic!
adam3251 11 months ago
@adam3251 See, you call it 'fucking magic', I call it creation. I don't claim to prove God's existence, I only say that it is more likely that there was a creator than it all happened on its own. Aside from creation, let's talk about meaning. If you think it all came about by chance, then (if you are honest) you would have to say that there is no meaning. Life is ultimately meaningless. Is that what you think? Dennis Prager said that if there is meaning there had to be a meaning giver. I agree.
koyunbaba73 11 months ago
@koyunbaba73 No, I can (and do) say that there is meaning in life. I also agree that if there is meaning to life there must be a meaning giver and I am that giver. I decide what my meaning is. BTW it doesn't matter what you call it matter doesn't come from nothing and matter just doesn't "poof" into existence like you claim it does. Also BTW you say there is no proof. Then why believe? If there is no evidence than your god has all the properties of non-existence. Why waste your time?
adam3251 11 months ago
@adam3251 Thoughtful arguments. What I mean by 'meaning' is an all encompassing macro-meaning. I like to read but I wouldn't say that is the meaning of life, just what I find meaningful in my life. If there were only the kind of meaning you're talking about, then there is no meaning in the existence of all those who came before you. That is the atheist position. Also, belief occurs in the absence of proof. Do you believe in anything that is unproven?
koyunbaba73 11 months ago
@koyunbaba73 You are correct. There is no universal meaning to life. That is what makes life so precious. There is a finite time here and it must be used wisely. Belief does occur in the absence of evidence, it is called faith and no I don't have, and don't want any either. BTW just to clarify the language, proofs apply to math. Evidence applies to science and reason.
adam3251 11 months ago
@adam3251 Do you believe in integrity, love, or beauty? How about honour or kinship? None of these are evidentiary. Do you like music? There is NO evidence for why music is so effective. I would bet that you appreciate at least SOME music, or that you have some concept of love or beauty. So if you don't believe in God because there is no evidence for God, then why would you believe in any of the things I mentioned? Faith has its place. Accepting that doesn't make you any less rational or smart.
koyunbaba73 11 months ago
@koyunbaba73 I do believe in integrity, love, beauty, honor, etc. But these are all necessarily subjective and subject to opinion. Some find beauty in Heavy Metal music, some don't. Are you saying that God is subjective? As for kinship, I can provide evidence of kinship. I have a birth certificate, and sworn statements if necessary. Faith has only one place and that is in the acceptance that there are other minds. Other than that evidence and reason rule the day.
adam3251 11 months ago
@adam3251 God may be subjective in the sense that different religions and individuals define God differently, but there is only one external reality, hence God can only be one way. I happen to believe in the God described in the Bible, specifically the first five books, known collectively as the Torah. I think we're at an impasse in terms of theology. Perhaps we can find common ground in the sphere of personal values. I get my values from the Bible. Where do you get your values from?
koyunbaba73 11 months ago
@koyunbaba73 Before we move on I want to make sure we are in agreement. You say there is no evidence for god and that god is purely subjective. As morals. If you get your morals from the first 5 books of the Bible than you must have a difficult time with life. Do you think it is ok to sell your children into slavery? The Bible says it is. Do you believe that a women who has been raped should be put to death? The Bible says she should. Do you think it is ok to beat your servants? The Bible...
adam3251 11 months ago
@adam3251 BTW I have answered every one of your questions here is one of mine. Given that there is no evidence for your claims, how do you know that you are right and not believing in some fairytale or a flat out hoax? What if you are wrong? Than you have wasted your life chasing a myth. Wouldn't you rather spend your time in an honest search for the truth? I certainly do. Let go of the sheep herder myths and join us in the wonders of human endeavor. You won't regret it.
adam3251 11 months ago
@koyunbaba73 I get my values in part from evolutionary motivations and by mutual agreement with those I am in particular groups with. If you get your values from the Torah, are you Hasidic? How to you justify the advocation of slavery, child murder, rape, torture and genocide that is in the Torah? Would you sell your children into slaver? Beyond all this, how do you connect the Torah with reality? Why do you believe this? This is the most important question.
adam3251 10 months ago
@adam3251 Look, you've got it all wrong about the Torah. It would take several lifetimes to try to undo your misconceptions about it. There are thousands of years worth of commentary that is essential to understanding it. So I can't even begin to try to explain it to you. I will say 2 brief things: The Torah was the greatest leap forward for humanity. Before the Torah was given, the world was one of ubiquitous child sacrifice, lawlessness, rape, incest, barbarity. [cont'd]
koyunbaba73 10 months ago
@adam3251 [cont'd] The Torah put an end to all of this (at least for the Jews). The amazing thing about the law regarding putting disobedient children to death is, that before that law, parents did put disobedient children to death. This law took that ability out of the hands of the parents and made it the responsibility of the Sanhedrin (council). And they never did it! They never said that a parent made a convincing enough case to carry out that killing. [cont'd]
koyunbaba73 10 months ago
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koyunbaba73 10 months ago
@adam3251 Read my comment in the middle please. It is a continuation which I forgot to address to you. Now, what I was saying is, that the Jews were commanded to go to war against certain people, invariably because they practised child sacrifice. The ironic thing is, that as the values of the Torah spread, other peoples began giving up the practise of child sacrifice. Finally, let me add that no Jew, no matter how observant, follows only the Torah without any suplementary commentary. [cont'd]
koyunbaba73 10 months ago
@adam3251 I don't expect that my explanation will change your perceptions, but I had to defend the Torah against the charges you made against it. But I won't do so again. Now I'll ask you a question: I have the wisdom to recognize the value of the wisdom of the giants who came before me; Isn't it a bit arrogant to think you can dispense with all of the wealth of wisdom that came out of the Jewish and Christian tradition? In whose footsteps do you stand?
koyunbaba73 10 months ago
@koyunbaba73 Before I answer your questions I just want to make sure the score is straight. You don't have evidence for God and you can't defend the Torah. I do not dispense with the wisdom that came out of the Jewish and Christian tradition. So nice try on that one. I just don't believe in their God. Having answered that I have one more question for you. Isn't it a bit arrogant to think you can dispense with all of the wealth of wisdom that came out of the Muslim, Hindu, Buddahist traditions?
adam3251 10 months ago
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koyunbaba73 10 months ago
@adam3251 No. And I don't see why the four paragraphs I wrote yesterday don't constitute a defence. I never claimed to have evidence for God only that I believed it is more likely that God exists, so nice try on that one. I don't believe you for one minute when you say that you don't dispense with the wisdom that came out of the Jewish and Christian tradition. You said yourself that you base your values on evolution and mutual agreements. That is antithetical to Judeo/Christian teachings.
koyunbaba73 10 months ago
@koyunbaba73 My apologies. I had not taken notice of those posts. So you think that slavery is just, under the right circumstances? Do you think that child sacrifice is ok? The torah agrees with both of these things. Do you? It also condones rape, child murder, and genocide, again under certain circumstances. Would you like specific passages. There is nothing good in that book.
adam3251 10 months ago
@adam3251 Well, it's unfortunate that you see it that way. Your comments reveal more about you than about "that book". That book has done more for the betterment of mankind than any other document. The proof of this is the post-biblical world of nazism and communism. Dropping the bible has resulted in a much more cruel world. Among the many unattractive attributes possesed by atheists, the least attractive is ingratitude. Thank you for the dialogue, but we have nothing further to discuss.
koyunbaba73 10 months ago
@koyunbaba73 My comments do reveal much about my attitudes. They reveal an honest search for the truth and the rejection of the collection of bronze age fairy tales, as told by backward sheep herders. The Bible is the most and destructive collection of documents the world has ever known. From wholesale genocide, witch hunts and pogroms against the Jews, that document has been used to justify the worst actions perpetrated by humanity. I understand your shame. It is difficult to defend evil.
adam3251 10 months ago 21