Everyone look up the following video title: "Protect IP Bill is WORSE than S.978 and being RUSHED". It's a matter of saving or losing good videos like this.
Also, did you ever take into account the possibility that if VFX has mental issues, then you might actually "inspire" him to kill someone by making videos like this?
@Elvishairdude89 The rest of us can't live our lives worried about how crazy people are going to react. They're CRAZY-- They'll find SOMETHING to set them off, and it probably WON'T be what a sane person would expect!
@Elvishairdude89 I'm suggesting that it's foolish to think that sane actions can be blamed for insane ones. Is John Lennon to blame for "inspiring" Mark David Chapman to kill him? Should Jodie Foster have done something different to keep John Hinkley from trying to shoot Ronald Reagan? Crazy people always have the element of surprise. You can't second guess WHO they are or what will set them off, and walk on eggshells to avoid annoying them-- Because THEY decide what annoys them!
You sound like a paranoid schizophrenic - maybe you're going to go shoot someone because you think they look crazy and imagine that they want you dead.
I see no evidence of him ever possessing weapons or threatening to kill someone, but if you don't want that to happen but believe he has mental issues then you might be pushing him over the line by putting ideas like this into his head. Videos like this don't help the problem.
@Elvishairdude89 Then my advice to YOU, my friend, is not make any videos, ever-- or look anyone in the eye, and for GOD'S SAKE, don't ever say anything that might be controversial. Keep your head down, and hope you don't "put ideas into anyone's head". Meanwhile, the rest of us will do what we please, and NOT worry about the crazy people's reactions.
"Let's get the crazy people some help and stop giving them fairy tails" holy shit, definitely. I recently watched a bunch of videos about that little schizophrenic kid (named Jani) and it was really really scary how many people talked about how she was possessed or she needed god in the comments. An illness like that looks so much like possession, but the absolute last thing it needs is to be labeled as such. It's a horrifying catch 22.
Way super luckily, her parent's don't buy into that stuff.
If that's the girl I'm thinking of then she wasn't "schizophrenic", though after years of being on hard drugs that she doesn't need due to a misdiagnosis she might turn out to be.
After all the dust settles, we have only two choices. Either the universe brought itself into existence, or something outside the universe, an external cause brought it into existence. The problem is how something could brought itself into existence? Isn't possible, therefore the cause must be external. The only thing present was energy. The God of the Bible is described with the same attributes of energy before energy was described. The existence of God is the best explanation. Open your eyes
I've heard someone say VenomFangX has a Cluster B personality disorder, and I can definitely see it.
I'm sure anyone who knows fallacies knows that the arguments Christians use to distant themselves from Tony48219 is what's known as the "No True Scotsman fallacy."
Isn't is weird that every atheist youtube channel allows comments, rateings and video responses and some of the most popular anti-athiest dudes ex: shockofgod and nephilliumfree dont? Now I will defend to the death their right to say what they want on youtube but those two in particular are both unamerican FUCKS!!!
@Jerphun Because they don't believe in free speech unless it's positive toward Christianity. Evangelicals seriously believe that here in America, it's sad. They know nothing of the constitution...
What's sadder is that atheists like you and I are ready at ANY moment to say: I will defend to death your right to say what you want. Most Christians would never say that about an atheist.
Also: religious people can't take criticism, much less ridicule. It's what unwraps their snug belief systems.
@Dethreid The caller's not venomfangx I've heard enough of his voice(mostly thunderfoot's videos lol) to know the difference, and I don't think he'd ever say that people are giving him too much money LOL.
I do agree from watching some of his videos that he was mentally unstable (or at least very immature), and that this was the most important factor in what he did. That being said it' a bad idea to teach anyone, regardless of their mental state, that this life is not real and they can get to eternal paradise if they die.
As Paul put it in Philippians 1:21 - "For me to live is Christ and to die is gain." Way to promote a life-affirming philosophy.
If I ever meet Shawn in real life, then I'll pistol whip him with as much force that I can muster because of what he didn't help those kids. Naaaah, just kiddin'! But seriously; I wanna kill him. @ @ \____/
@moopism believe in Jesus or burn in hell!.....wow. Well I have looked into the evidence of Christianity and I have discovered that there is none, but there is allot of evidence showing it to be load of shit. my point is, as a non Christian raised in a non Christian area, how can I trick my mind into believing in Jesus when everything tells me it’s not true? Do you see the point I am trying to make?
@mascall87 Pretty much, although if you desire to conform to American style evangelicals, you should probably drop any sense of compunction, compassion, and social altruism as well....
Oh lest I forget, you have to be able to demand that everyone comply with the dictates of your religious dogma without knowing any more of the bible than, say, a half dozen cherry picked verses....
You should be fucking ashamed of yourselves for dancing and celebrating a murder-suicide because you feel you can use it to justify generalizing hundreds of millions of people.
@Zelrio28 ...nobody's dancing and cheering a murder suicide you douche. The act itself was an act nobdoy wished for, and everyone despises. In fact, he was hardly even mentioned in the video. Tony was an arogant asshole bigot that did a horrible thing, and deserves his chastizing.
@BigLundi Fuck off, you pile of shit. Your comment proves you're only capable of reading the first ten words of someone else's post, so don't bother replying to me with more garbage.
@Zelrio28 "You should be fucking ashamed of yourselves for dancing and celebrating a murder-suicide because you feel you can use it to justify generalizing hundreds of millions of people."
Now tell me, what part of that was taken out of context?
It should be noted that there is little to no objectivity here (not saying that all Christians are either). But the truth is that if this were to be an educated view over a matter it would present both sides of the case. Plus the matter of misrepresentation of Christian beliefes. Before it goes down as being fact perhaps they should have someone to defend both sides. Also, it would appear that the hosts seem to focus on matters that, if actually compared to Christian doctrine, aren't Christian.
@spectersparten The only reason to present both sides to an argument is when there is proven validity in both sides of the argument. If there is no proven validity to one side of the argument, then no, it doesn't deserve to be taught alongside.
@BigLundi The only reason to present both sides is so that objectivity can be reached regardless of validity of either claims. Then, once objectivity has been reached, a factual comparison can be achieved. This show does no such thing but instead sets up several claims and they are, in fact, not based on truth but presuposition and false ideas. I never said either should be taught, what I said was that this arena, where the validity is being denied without a chance of defense, is foolish.
@spectersparten What are you talking about? Every single person that calls in as a theist caller(which is the vast majority of their callers, as that's who they want to talk to) is asked to first present their argument, definition for god, and why they believe in god. After all of this, then Matt, or Russell, or whoever is hosting at the time, will discuss, or debate with them, their argument for God's existence.
Have you ever even seen an episode from start to finish?
@BigLundi So with this discussion about Ven.X then why isn't he given an opportunity to testify on his own case? Instead someone calls in and it is assumed that everything he says is factuall. On the topic of the callers, are they at all even qualified? This is the only episode I have seen from start to finish but if this is at all a representation of the quality of the callers and arguments then it is far from objective. They make claims and don't seek to back it up. That's all I'm pointing out
@spectersparten Because he's already been found guilty of it. And he's lucky he wasn't sent to prison for it. The only people who 'make claims' are the theist callers. Atheists don't make claims, they simply debunk theistic ones.
In any case, One of the main purposes of this show is to show theists the atheistic view. It's to help people better understand atheists. USUALLY calls like the one here aren't discussed for long, and it wasn't, as you can tell it was a whole of 6 minutes.
@spectersparten How are they being denied without a chance of defence ? Theists coming on the show and trying to defend the claim that God exists takes up the majority of the the time on the show.
@ryan84160 Then why not in this episode? His claim is one that is, in fact, untrue yet no Christian is given a chance to testify? I admit to not watching other videos and if that is an offense then I'm sorry, but this particular video is found lacking in objectivity (and I know that there are many like this out there on both sides of the fense).
@spectersparten This is not an entire episode, this is a 6 minute segment of the episode. Nearly every single episode that I have seen has been theists trying to defend their position for about 60-70% of the time of the entire episode. How can you claim that they don't give theists a chance to speak when you have not seen any of their other videos ? and what claim did they make that was untrue?
@ryan84160 You're right. I claim that in this snippet where Venfx was being criticized at the start he wasn't given a chance to defend himself. Then there was the claim that religion is detrimental to the mentaly ill. I will admit that some religious beliefs are bad for everyone, I would go so far as to say the majority are but that doesn't mean all of them are and when they are lumped together like that it is a broad overgeneralization. As well as the excorcism part, there is bad religion.
@spectersparten Everything that was said about him was true. He has admitted himself. Anyway are you trying to say that t is unfair to criticize someone unless they are always present in the conversation and able to defend themselves in real time ? This is ridiculous.
@spectersparten He did not say that ALL religious beliefs were harmful to the psyche. But anyway, this is his opinion. I happen to agree with him, you happen to disagree and that is fine because no one said you had to. I don't see how this is unfair.
@ThePersecuted7 He had SOME tax exempt status, he was NOt, however, in a position to simply pay no taxes ever , which was what he was doing. Several million uncited dollars made and not paid taxes on. That's...illegal. Plus, the funniest part about the whole deal is his usual argument against evolution is, "It's a religion, and I don't want my tax dollars teaching a stupid religion in school."
I was talking to a Christian and he said i was arrogant i then told him to define arrogance he said it was never changing your mind no matter what. I then said would you ever leave Christianity he said he would never do that.
Revelation 1 - I am the First and the Last, And the everlasting one. I died, but see, I am alive forevermore; and I possess the keys of death and Hades.
@gethsoftware Blame the crappy medical system that made it unlikely somebody that ill got treatment. Also blaming sexual desire. It likely no accident that the girl involved was attractive.
@Katalyzt blaming VFX for Tony is immoral, dishonest and uncalled for. Tony was mentally ill. He wasn't following Jesus. Jesus doesn't tell people to kill people. The statement in 3:58 is unfair too; I had a friend with schitzophrenia and even fiction set him off. You want to ban people from pubvlishing fiction too?
Read what I said. I did not say or imply that vfx was the sole cause of tony`s mental illness, but he did in fact contribute to his belief in the imaginary; instead of offering or directing him to reality/help.
P.S.
I do not see anything wrong with banning two works of fiction: the bible and the qur’an. ;O)
@Katalyzt VFX being all of 20+ years old, could not possibly have known that tony was mentally ill or likely to kill somebody. If you had met tony at a Star Trek convention, I doubt you would have done better than VFX either. Maybe he had family or friends who could have known but if they did, they were probably trying to convince him to get help. Blame is useless in a case like this.
If you care to know the truth you can check though old posts involving tony(before he killed himself) and you will see that many people commenting on his instability and also if left of checked he would probably hurt others. Oh, and that his belief in imaginary thing was not helping his condition(which vfx contributed too).
@bobthecat420 A book of historic fiction can also contain some truth. ;). For the record, I don't recall saying that i was a believer in God. Avoid making stupid asssumptions.
@gejost I didn't make that assumption, and I don't see how you percieved that from my comment. I merely stated that the bible is fiction (New York is a real place, but that doesn't make Spiderman anything but a work of fiction), because you inferred that it isn't. "...and even fiction set him off." Maybe you should take your own advice and avoid making stupid assumptions. ;)
@HonestMan395 thats great. defiitely wouldnt want you next to me in a war zone. Notice war is not fought with marshmellows and pillows. If you are against God you are an enemy of God. And the lovey dovey jesus that peopple love to talk about, exclude the fact that He is also wrathful Judgment to fall on the sinner. The hem of his robe drenched in the blood of the guilty. it is the guilty that punish not the innocent. And none are innocent not one except by grace alone.
@deltaalphacharlie You appear to believe that everything is in the hands of god and that anything he does is OK with you, even killing innocents. Having served in the Armed Forces, I wouldn't want you with me in a war zone with me either.
If god was real and on earth as a human, he would now be standing trial for genocide as a dangerous psychotic.
@HonestMan395 question. not discrediting your service or that of others. but what exactly was your duty being in the armed forces. Many people are part of it and a big thanks and of course the unit couldn't be as efficient without all its members, but were you putting bullets through domes so to speak? I myself have never served, but i do understand a thing or two about waging war. i dont think i could be bashed for saying a good enemy is a completely dead one.
@deltaalphacharlie quote: 1/2. So, you're happy to be compared with an mindless machine that's blindly programmed to do it's maker's bidding, without ever having an original thought in its processor?
In your case, I'd agree with that. It's obviously that you're incapable of thinking for yourself and deciding the difference between right and wrong. You need to be told, by a higher body, what to do with your life, every step of the way.
You're a good christian. A unthinking automaton. Cont'd.
@HonestMan395 I never once compared myself to a mindless computer. I used an example to illustrate what i was saying minus the reality of what a computer is. Way to go making a useless point
@HonestMan395 minus the computer analogy, yes and no not slaughter. But take life none-the-less. If He is the giver of Life then it is his right to take what is his. Would God owe the human race anything? I then ask you a personal question. You were in a war does that make you a man slaughtering child destroying miscreant? Do justify yourself? As your thoughts on God contradict your role in conflict. It's the nature of war and i do not see you as a killer or murder or any of those sorts.
@deltaalphacharlie Killing in self defence or to prevent a greater disaster, has reluctantly to be used when there is no option.
However, if the bible is to be believed, God, on the other had, kills at a whim and consideration of any collateral damage, include innocent women and children, doesn't seem to enter into his pervue. In fact he goes out of his way to slaughter the innocent for the guilt of the few, even if that perceived guilt is accidental and unintentional.
@HonestMan395 thats where you dont seem o understand Gods action. and the pre-conceived idea that men are essentially good, aka mr hobbes and locke. But the destruction of the enemy is preserve the life of The Israelite. If God is true to His His word, "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me/ Don't bow down to something dead with no life" then He must eradicate any resistance that would be detrimental to the Hebrew. Further more It was taking the life of male children.
@deltaalphacharlie 1/2. Quote: "He must eradicate any resistance that would be detrimental to the Hebrew. Further more It was taking the life of male children."
If you believe that that is a justifcation for slaughtering innocent children, then you have a truly sick mind.
And furthermore he took all children, male or female, including all the unborn in the womb. I can give you quotes from your precious bible where that is so. Cont'd.
@HonestMan395 no he did not take any from the womb. girls were spared. There was only one instance where the order was to destroy everything. literally everything. the gold the cattle the riches everything nothing was left to be spared. If He had said kill them but keep the spoils that would have different but it was an abhorrence to Him.
@HonestMan395 None are innocent. A child may not have sinned, but he is still a sinner. it is the nature of who he is, as a human being, he will grow to be like his fathers father and those before him. My children will be born sinners, but it is the love of God that perseveres, And gives life unlike any other. To those that proclaim wisdom ,even the foolish things will put him to shame. you quote me dawkins. The man whose purpose in life is to convince people there is no purpose in it.
@HonestMan395 furthermore if you understood the impact that this had you wouldn't be so indignant of what was done. Furthermore you seem to skirt the allegation i made against the bombers who dropped the h bomb on japan. Were there not innocent women and children there too? yes but death came by the hands of men who have no right to take life, but oh the irony.
@HonestMan395 "A man will go to a philosophical meeting and complain that men are treated like savages and beasts. He will then take his hat and umbrella and go to a scientific meeting where he will try to prove they actually are beasts."
@HonestMan395 Shall he child grow to then turn against those that made war against his kin? Furthermore the fellas who dropped the H- bombs on Japan are they not mass murderers as well. No? they did this to preserve the life blood of their country. Were there not children among the casualties. Yet the audacity to brand God a murder when it is His right and His alone to take life, young old what ever He is the culprit when men have done their waging of wars yet they put the blame on one faultless
@deltaalphacharlie There is no hiding from the fact that, in the words of Richard Dawkins:
"The god of the bible is a Vindictive, Bloodthirsty, Ethnic Cleanser. A misogynistic, homophobic, Racist, Infanticidal, Genocidal, Philacidal, Pestilential, Megalomaniacal, Sado-Masochistic, Capriciously Malevolent Bully."
@HonestMan395 Well then, I will tell you. Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne and I myself have founded great empires; but upon what did these creations of our genius depend? Upon force. Jesus alone founded His empire upon love, and to this very day millions will die for Him. . . . I think I understand something of human nature; and I tell you, all these were men, and I am a man; none else is like Him: Jesus Christ was more than a man
@deltaalphacharlie . I have inspired multitudes with such an enthusiastic devotion that they would have died for me . . . but to do this is was necessary that I should be visibly present with the electric influence of my looks, my words, of my voice. When I saw men and spoke to them, I lightened up the flame of self-devotion in their hearts. . . . Christ alone has succeeded in so raising the mind of man toward the unseen, that it becomes insensible to the barriers of time and space.
@deltaalphacharlie . He asks for the human heart; He will have it entirely to Himself. He demands it unconditionally; and forthwith His demand is granted. Wonderful! In defiance of time and space, the soul of man, with all its powers and faculties, becomes an annexation to the empire of Christ. All who sincerely believe in Him, experience that remarkable, supernatural love toward Him. This phenomenon is unaccountable; it is altogether beyond the scope of man's creative powers.
@deltaalphacharlie - said by a man who waged war better than both of us and whose influence outlasts even dawkins. -Napoleon Bonaparte Conqueror of Europe.
@HonestMan395 yes, but your quote is before he was exiled. He hated God before he was set to nothing but a prisoner. Once exiled after being stripped of his power he contemplated God once more How even the mighty fall.
@HonestMan395 You seem to find it easy to point your finger and call me sicko who wants to kill. Regard your thoughts. have i once said i was going to kill anyone one or did i not merely propose a point that was not agreeable to you. Backed into your corner you pass your judgment. lastly The God you fight so earnestly against and declare "dead" you erect your own god in replacement. What contradiction. You have become your own god.
@deltaalphacharlie No, you haven't said that you were going to kill anyone, you just seem to think it's a good idea.
From your writings I get the firm impression that given the opportunity, If you thought your god had told you to and if you thought you could get away with it, you would kill at the drop of a hat.
Accusing me becoming my own god is pathetic, but it's typical of the sort of mind that cannot envisage any world other than through the viewpoint of the idea that there must be a god.
@HonestMan395 Would you say no to your duties as a soldier? NO. But you act as if that is the command of the day. The destruction of evil ,is essentially evil according to you. Furthermore, you have become your own god. its great you see it as pathetic analyze your life and its choices your values your ideals etc. whom does it serve or promote? You are your own master and pleases HonestMan395 is what you live by. even your morals and self righteous ethics are yours alone.
@HonestMan395 deny it as you may, in an attempt to destroy god, every atheist becomes their own god. And they are absolutley sure in their world of no absolutes.
@HonestMan395 Its interesting to hear from a man who asked the dead. He becomes nothing because lo the dad say....nothing."Let human reason decide for itself" you are your own god unwittingly so. Because you pick and choose what is and what isn't. With no real definition yet you speak in absolutes. the contradiction.
@deltaalphacharlie You just don't get it, do you. I'm not my own god because there are no such things as gods and you haven't presented any evidence to the contrary.
Of course I make my own decisions, based on my upbringing, experience and the circumstances at the time and I don't speak in absolutes, because there are no absolutes.
All moral and ethical decisions are subjective. Objective morality is a myth. Only religious people, incapable of moral decisions of their own, say anything else.
No true scientist will absolutely deny the possibilty of anything, seeing that it is impossible to prove the non existance of anything, but I can only say that the total lack of any evidence pointing to the existence of any gods, coupled with the overwhelming evidence for a scientific and natural explanation of the universe and life on earth puts the probability of there NOT being any gods at around 99.999999999%.
@deltaalphacharlie As sure as I can be of anything. Morality and ethics have nothing to do with any god given standards.
They are the natural result of an evolutionary process to ensure the survival of the group. Thoroughout history, all successful societies, both religious and secular, have evolved a system of moral guidlines, without which they could not have survived. Those societies that didn't, eventually collapsed.
Even social animals have a basic form of "morals" to protect the group.
@HonestMan395 i cant trust your words. Because you give me an absolute statement yet you tell me you don't believe in absolutes because there are no absolutes yet you are absolutely certain of what you are telling me is in fact absolutely true. Furthermore morals and ethics retard evolution. of what gain is it anyone from taking or doing as they please for the survival of ones kin. Is it not more benefical to have no competion.
@HonestMan395 keep fighting the good fight bro. a resource for you (i moderate here, its a good resource, maybe sign up, my username is WhatsAGoodUsername?) ironchariots(dot)o r g
this would be good for the idiot you are arguing against too, as is provides counter-arguments for everything he has said. the site i just recommended to you is the product of the one and only Matt Dilahunty of the atheist experience. his username is Sans Diety.
@HonestMan395 tHERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES. iS THIS NOT IN FACT A STATEMNET CONTRADICTORY OF ITSELF? if nothing is absolute how then can there be a statement that says there is no absolutes indefinitely. That is an absolute statement or only a truth to you. it must be one or the other.
@HonestMan395 if tit is really that ridculous i dont see you addressing it other than it is a ridiculous statment that brings to light what you are attesting to.
@deltaalphacharlie. I was merely stating a fact. Absolutes are by their nature unchanging and unchangeable. Therefore, in a world and society that is constantly changing, there can be no absolutes, other than in the strict scientific sense, i.e. Absolute zero or the speed of light, although now, scientists are even questioning those.
But, compared with those, absolute morality is a myth that only religious people give any credence to.
@HonestMan395 yet you question my morals? If i was a killer who was obsessed with killing people, i wouldn't be wrong then. I wouldn't be sick or psychopathic etc etc, according to your "fact." Which still leaves you in contradiction of your own statement by the way.But since morality is a myth, why is your view more credible than mine? are you not the same flesh and bone as i am or you presume you are more than i am. Also you do believe in absolutes then? as you defined it to me above.
@deltaalphacharlie Typical of christians. You are twisting my words. A sure sign that you are backing yourself into a corner from which you have no escape.
Nowhere did I say that morality is a myth, No society could survive without a code of morality and ethics. History has shown that and you know full well what I said, thus adding dishonesty to your delusion.
I said that ABSOLUTE morality is a myth of the religious mind. What is moral is decided by each society for it's needs.
@HonestMan395 "You just don't get it, do you. I'm not my own god because there are no such things as gods and you haven't presented any evidence to the contrary.
Of course I make my own decisions, based on my upbringing, experience and the circumstances at the time and I don't speak in absolutes, because there are no absolutes.
All moral and ethical decisions are subjective. Objective morality is a myth. Only religious people, incapable of moral decisions of their own, say anything else."
@deltaalphacharlie Throwing my words back at me only compounds your dishonesty.
When I said that there were no absolutes, I specifically stated that in reference to Objective morality, as you well know. If you don't, you are illiterate as well.
I even specifically said that ALL moral and ethical decisions are subjective. I NEVER said that all morality was a myth, just that objective morality, so beloved of the religious mind was a myth.
I now wait to see how you are going to twist that.
@HonestMan395 I apologized din't i. Playing fair as you would like to deem, you were doing the twisting in the begining weren't you. take notice of that. But i was hoenst enough to catch my mistake, moving if morality is subjective, then answer my question on hitlers actions. Can you tell me he is evil ,or has done wrong? and according to whom, was he not the one calling the shots was he not the source of all orders in germany. If your subjective morality was real, then the whole world owes him
@HonestMan395 my fault i didn't take the objective word into account sorry. any way... if what you say is true what if my society says it's benefical wipe your society off the face of the earth. aka hitler, he thought eradiction of the jews was a sound idea they were the reason for everyones problems. How do you jive with that idea?
@deltaalphacharlie 1/2. Quote: "if what you say is true what if my society says it's benefical wipe your society off the face of the earth. aka hitler, he thought eradiction of the jews was a sound idea they were the reason for everyones problems"
First, it was not the society who said that. It was a small group including Hitler, who manipulated a defeated and demoralised public who had been humiliated after WW I, and who considered that they had a grievance to settle with the Jews. Cont’d.
@HonestMan395 the aka is a different idea. i should have said it better to make it clear thats my fault but none the less. I didn't see you say anything on his actions. In doing so you contradict your statement. Further hitler was no Christian...evidence-------Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7) If anything.
@deltaalphacharlie 2/2. and don’t twist my words and say that I'm saying I agree with that. I state it as a reason, not a justification.
However, he was opposed by most of the other nations of the world including, secular ones, and was defeated.
Hitler, by the way, although he probably was not a conventional catholic, he was most certainly a believer in God and most of his army would have been either catholic or Lutheran. Where was your objective morality there? Cont’d.
@deltaalphacharlie 3/3. Hitler was much like your god, who, if the bible is true, ordered his people to commit genocide on a number of occasions and in spite of, or maybe because of their Objective morality, they were only too pleased to comply.
The difference between Hitler and your god is that most people today, even Germans, think that Hitler was a monster who deserved to be deposed.
Whereas, all “good” christians think that god is a pretty good guy for doing what the bible says he did.
"I shall never come to terms with the Christian lie." And
"Our epoch will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity".
And others in that vein.
I take it that, if you have actually read the table talk conversations, which I doubt, and not just seen them on some apologetics website, then you, like me, will have read the English translation, which was taken from the French translation, where these quotes appear. Cont’d.
@deltaalphacharlie 3/3. Also, the supposed "anti-Christian" portions of the conversations conflict with all Hitler’s own writings and His actions for what he called "positive" Christianity.
“I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.”
Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2
There're many quotes on the same lines as that. If Hitler was an atheist, why did he keep saying that he believed in God, had faith in God, and was convinced that he was doing God's work.
@HonestMan395 i am honest and man enough to have gone out and researched said quotes of hitler and yes they were probably not his. sorry i pulled a site up to read his history only to come across these quotes without considering origin. None-the-less. if he believed what he did can you still point your finger and question his subjective moral views. By the way he was catholic as reliable source confirms. and as the guy below states. that has problems in and of itself. But back to the point.
@deltaalphacharlie I admire your honesty. There is hope for you yet. :))
I was a fraud investigator for many years and I learned when it comes to research, it is always wise to checkout a number of varied sources before accepting anything as true, even from me. :) I would say at least three, but the more the better.
That's why I have a problem with the bible. Apart from in the bible itself, there is no independent verification of any of the major events in the bible. quite the reverse, in fact.
@HonestMan395 There are outside sources that do attest to the things that occurred in Judea at that time. Though, the way the represent these events are in the negative. in fact mockingly they state these events as to call the Christ followers idiotic fools etc, and Christ himself a disillusioned miscreant. One also considers the twelve men that went to their graves as prisoners and captives holding fast to their "story."
@HonestMan395 this is what authenticates what happened, Their experiences being what they saw and heard and went through. All of the followers of Christ were either beheaded, crucified, stoned, or were put to death in some way, except John who died of natural causes. But here is the authenticity. They all held fast to the promises, the life death, Resurrection of Christ. They went out preaching these things they saw and heard. They were all eventually put to death for refusing to keep quiet.cont
@HonestMan395 Even in the face of death they did not recant what they preached, they enforced it even more. People will die for what they BELIEVE to be the truth, but no one will die for a lie they know is a lie, when they gain nothing but lose everything including the lives of family members and friends. It is the greatest hoax ever played in history if it was a lie. But their are elements of the story which retard even the soundest conspiracy for what they preached. if you wish to know ask me.
@HonestMan395 i just say this in interest of saving us both trouble from excessive typing is it is irritating on these stop and go 400 word max comment boxes. However back to the point. All of this, all the things that the Life of Christ has inspired, or had inspired could have all came crumbling down in one minute. seconds even. No faith based loonies etc etc, today. All that had to be done was to produce the body of Jesus Christ.
@deltaalphacharlie 1/5. Quote: “There are outside sources that do attest to the things that occurred in Judea at that time.”
Which sources are they?
Quote: “One also considers the twelve men that went to their graves as prisoners and captives holding fast to their "story." This is what authenticates what happened.”
There were actually 13 disciples, if you count Matthias, Judas’ successor.
As Judas committed suicide before the resurrection we can’t count him as dying for a false cause. Cont’d.
@HonestMan395 hmm, good point on a technicality, yes excluding Judas Iscariot, apostles present after the resurrection were put to death, i should have detailed more so my fault.
@deltaalphacharlie 1/3. I've read your comments and I've read your PM's and although at first, I thought we had some common ground. I now realise that we are coming at this from completely different angles.
You are accepting that the bible is completely accurate, whereas I start from the position that, because there are so many demonstrable inaccuracies in the bible, I accept nothing from the bible or writings derived from it as true unless backed up by verfiable independent evidence. Cont'd.
@deltaalphacharlie 2/5. Of the remaining 12, according to tradition and the Bible, four of the remaining disciples died of natural causes. Only eight are claimed to have been martyrs, but there’s no independent verification of this and all stories of their deaths only appear for the first time between 100 and 150 yrs after their supposed deaths, written by the 2nd and 3rd century authors Hippolytus and Eusebius, who is known as the Father of Church history. Cont’d.
@deltaalphacharlie 3/5. Unfortunately, Eusebius is known for “tweeking” the truth in his writings. There are many examples in his writings of this. He saw nothing wrong in it, if he thought it was to the benefit of the faith and martyrs are very good for religions.
However, even if the deaths are true, apart from what we know about Eusebius, the deaths still don’t prove Jesus’ divinity.
For one thing, it’s unlikely that, even if they wanted to recant, they would be given the opportunity. Cont'd
@deltaalphacharlie 4/5. Confessions were not normally accepted to avoid punishment. Once the decision had been taken to execute, the only confession that would be listened to, was an admission of guilt. A Recantation would neither have been sort, nor welcomed.
Even if they did know that their stories were false, dying for a cause you know is false, is not unknown, even today. Jim Jones and David Koresh are examples of this. Unfortunately, self-deception is part of the human psyche. Cont’d.
@HonestMan395 Thats a difference. though. They can only believe in their cause they don't have access to first hand account. That can be said of suicide bombers as well can' it? they are no different than Jim Jones.
@deltaalphacharlie 2/3. You cannot use any document including the bible to prove itself and as there's virtually no independent documentory or physical evidence for the whole of the life of Jesus or many of the cornerstone events of the bible, I cannot accept your claims for the accuracy of the resurrection or even the crucifixion itself without corroboration. There are no Roman records of any such event having taken place and I cannot believe that something that size would have gone unreported.
@HonestMan395 look at this site. i read through it myself to make sure there weren't any glorified attempts to present the gospels in sketchy truths. i will pm you because i dont know how to paste in these boxes.
@deltaalphacharlie 5/5. There is another controversial reason, but one that has a lot of circumstantial evidence supporting it.
It is that Jesus didn’t die on the cross, but was revived, however, due to the circumstances of the crucifixion, it was thought to be a resurrection.
I can give my reasons for this, but it would be very detailed and difficult to fit into the 500 letter restrictions of the comments section. However, I would be happy to send it to you via PM.
@HonestMan395 sure you can send it. In the mean time i doubt that a revival Occurred, because His legs would have been broken to induce death because it was a Sabbath, that He was hung on the cross. Normally it took a while to die via crucifixion, it wold take even up to a few days. But this couldn't happen because Jewish Law states that By the Sabbath No bodies are to be hung on the tree . They had to induce death to get them off the tree before the start of the sabbath.
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Everyone look up the following video title: "Protect IP Bill is WORSE than S.978 and being RUSHED". It's a matter of saving or losing good videos like this.
jityr2 6 days ago
Did you hear that Ffreethinker? Matt loves you!
Tatchko 4 weeks ago
Also, did you ever take into account the possibility that if VFX has mental issues, then you might actually "inspire" him to kill someone by making videos like this?
Elvishairdude89 1 month ago
@Elvishairdude89 The rest of us can't live our lives worried about how crazy people are going to react. They're CRAZY-- They'll find SOMETHING to set them off, and it probably WON'T be what a sane person would expect!
GoblinXXX 1 month ago
@GoblinXXX
Are you a licensed psychiatrist?
Elvishairdude89 1 month ago
@Elvishairdude89 Are you? And you don't need a medical degree to know that the whole world can't pander to the insane.
GoblinXXX 1 month ago
@GoblinXXX
I'm not sure what you're suggesting.
Elvishairdude89 1 month ago
@Elvishairdude89 I'm suggesting that it's foolish to think that sane actions can be blamed for insane ones. Is John Lennon to blame for "inspiring" Mark David Chapman to kill him? Should Jodie Foster have done something different to keep John Hinkley from trying to shoot Ronald Reagan? Crazy people always have the element of surprise. You can't second guess WHO they are or what will set them off, and walk on eggshells to avoid annoying them-- Because THEY decide what annoys them!
GoblinXXX 1 month ago
@GoblinXXX
You sound like a paranoid schizophrenic - maybe you're going to go shoot someone because you think they look crazy and imagine that they want you dead.
I see no evidence of him ever possessing weapons or threatening to kill someone, but if you don't want that to happen but believe he has mental issues then you might be pushing him over the line by putting ideas like this into his head. Videos like this don't help the problem.
Elvishairdude89 1 month ago
@Elvishairdude89 Then my advice to YOU, my friend, is not make any videos, ever-- or look anyone in the eye, and for GOD'S SAKE, don't ever say anything that might be controversial. Keep your head down, and hope you don't "put ideas into anyone's head". Meanwhile, the rest of us will do what we please, and NOT worry about the crazy people's reactions.
GoblinXXX 1 month ago
Hm so you blindly believe that VFX is going to kill someone just because this other guy did it - do you believe this based on faith? ;)
Elvishairdude89 1 month ago
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I just defeated VenomFangX in a personal message debate. He gave up and blocked me from his sad little channel.
RTKFilms 1 month ago
"Let's get the crazy people some help and stop giving them fairy tails" holy shit, definitely. I recently watched a bunch of videos about that little schizophrenic kid (named Jani) and it was really really scary how many people talked about how she was possessed or she needed god in the comments. An illness like that looks so much like possession, but the absolute last thing it needs is to be labeled as such. It's a horrifying catch 22.
Way super luckily, her parent's don't buy into that stuff.
GuacamoleKun 1 month ago
@GuacamoleKun
If that's the girl I'm thinking of then she wasn't "schizophrenic", though after years of being on hard drugs that she doesn't need due to a misdiagnosis she might turn out to be.
Elvishairdude89 1 month ago
@Elvishairdude89 She wasn't schizophrenic? What was up with her then?
GuacamoleKun 1 month ago
Jesus, everybody knows who this freak venomfang is.
MrNicMachiavelli 1 month ago
@MrNicMachiavelli This was 2009, so he wasn't quite as well known then.
GoblinXXX 1 month ago
@GoblinXXX lol true, but he must be the most famous youtuber there is by now. Everybody on every channel talks about this lunatic.
MrNicMachiavelli 1 month ago
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After all the dust settles, we have only two choices. Either the universe brought itself into existence, or something outside the universe, an external cause brought it into existence. The problem is how something could brought itself into existence? Isn't possible, therefore the cause must be external. The only thing present was energy. The God of the Bible is described with the same attributes of energy before energy was described. The existence of God is the best explanation. Open your eyes
dejesusluisx 2 months ago
always have a safe word.
tuseroni 2 months ago
The background makes this video funny.
I've heard someone say VenomFangX has a Cluster B personality disorder, and I can definitely see it.
I'm sure anyone who knows fallacies knows that the arguments Christians use to distant themselves from Tony48219 is what's known as the "No True Scotsman fallacy."
raspberrymuffin 3 months ago
How did VenomFangX become famous in the first place?
There are millions of people on YouTube.
SinnFein4ever 3 months ago
Isn't is weird that every atheist youtube channel allows comments, rateings and video responses and some of the most popular anti-athiest dudes ex: shockofgod and nephilliumfree dont? Now I will defend to the death their right to say what they want on youtube but those two in particular are both unamerican FUCKS!!!
Jerphun 3 months ago
@Jerphun Because they don't believe in free speech unless it's positive toward Christianity. Evangelicals seriously believe that here in America, it's sad. They know nothing of the constitution...
What's sadder is that atheists like you and I are ready at ANY moment to say: I will defend to death your right to say what you want. Most Christians would never say that about an atheist.
Also: religious people can't take criticism, much less ridicule. It's what unwraps their snug belief systems.
Territomauvais 3 months ago
@Dethreid The caller's not venomfangx I've heard enough of his voice(mostly thunderfoot's videos lol) to know the difference, and I don't think he'd ever say that people are giving him too much money LOL.
bobthecat420 4 months ago
you know whats funny...the caller is venomfangx
Dethreid 5 months ago
I do agree from watching some of his videos that he was mentally unstable (or at least very immature), and that this was the most important factor in what he did. That being said it' a bad idea to teach anyone, regardless of their mental state, that this life is not real and they can get to eternal paradise if they die.
As Paul put it in Philippians 1:21 - "For me to live is Christ and to die is gain." Way to promote a life-affirming philosophy.
chirectomy 5 months ago
Why is Kent Hoven's name always accompany by his crime and prison sentence?
MaestroAlvis 5 months ago
@MaestroAlvis Because it destroys the character that he portrayed for so long.
SonOfNye 5 months ago
I think that taxes are evil so I don't hold tax evasion against Hovind...
mrhnm 6 months ago
If I ever meet Shawn in real life, then I'll pistol whip him with as much force that I can muster because of what he didn't help those kids. Naaaah, just kiddin'! But seriously; I wanna kill him. @ @ \____/
multimillionmuffins 7 months ago
Glad to hear they like the yt uploaders. I was wonderin'
dymchurch1 8 months ago
Yeah, atheist funk.
Aphrocraft 8 months ago
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"BURN IN HELL FOREVER OR BELIEVE IN JESUS
fuckmania07 1 week ago "
Honestly, am I the only one struck by the enormous irony?
moopism 8 months ago
@moopism believe in Jesus or burn in hell!.....wow. Well I have looked into the evidence of Christianity and I have discovered that there is none, but there is allot of evidence showing it to be load of shit. my point is, as a non Christian raised in a non Christian area, how can I trick my mind into believing in Jesus when everything tells me it’s not true? Do you see the point I am trying to make?
mascall87 7 months ago
@mascall87 You can always try not thinking... sublimation of clear factual evidence is a strength in religion....
moopism 7 months ago
@moopism so in order to to be a chrisitian i have to stop thinking?
mascall87 7 months ago
@mascall87 Pretty much, although if you desire to conform to American style evangelicals, you should probably drop any sense of compunction, compassion, and social altruism as well....
Oh lest I forget, you have to be able to demand that everyone comply with the dictates of your religious dogma without knowing any more of the bible than, say, a half dozen cherry picked verses....
moopism 7 months ago
@moopism this all sounds so easy! i just got to stop being me and except everything as truth regardles of evidance or logic! thanks man
mascall87 7 months ago
@mascall87 I've heard a brainectomy helps..... kind of like Mary Poppins spoonful of sugar.
After all, faith MEANS accepting as truth the completely subjective and unverifiable. Anything less is contrary to god's wishes.
moopism 7 months ago
@moopism WOW! I am enlightened
mascall87 7 months ago
@mascall87 Glad to be of help.....
moopism 7 months ago
@moopism
Yeah. You have to wonder what their 'Jesus' would have to say about their actions?
Personally, I don't believe in cosmic zombies, so the question is rhetorical.
Numinous123 6 months ago
@Numinous123 I know, but the question lays bare the ridiculous irony in such a great knife twist. Kudos.
moopism 6 months ago
@moopism Moab is my washpot.
gamesbok 6 months ago
@mascall87
In order to be a Christian, you can't question what's being told to you. You have to go on "faith".
Numinous123 6 months ago
@Numinous123 well there's the problem lol
mascall87 6 months ago
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AmiAlis 8 months ago
Comment removed
AmiAlis 8 months ago
BURN IN HELL FOREVER OR BELIEVE IN JESUS
fuckmania07 9 months ago
Atheists are animals. No soul, no reason to live, nothing. Prove that wrong!
s0ulseek3r 9 months ago
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@s0ulseek3r why bother? you are the same.
hollaboutit 9 months ago
@s0ulseek3r no reason other than one they make for themselves. Your statement is true of all humans, not just atheists. Prove that wrong.
estragon9 9 months ago 2
@s0ulseek3r You got it! Finally, a christian who gets it....
but, you ARE an animal too. You make reasons to live for yourself.
halflifefan84 8 months ago
@s0ulseek3r Prove that right
Neeidea 8 months ago
You should be fucking ashamed of yourselves for dancing and celebrating a murder-suicide because you feel you can use it to justify generalizing hundreds of millions of people.
Zelrio28 9 months ago
@Zelrio28 ...nobody's dancing and cheering a murder suicide you douche. The act itself was an act nobdoy wished for, and everyone despises. In fact, he was hardly even mentioned in the video. Tony was an arogant asshole bigot that did a horrible thing, and deserves his chastizing.
BigLundi 8 months ago
@BigLundi Fuck off, you pile of shit. Your comment proves you're only capable of reading the first ten words of someone else's post, so don't bother replying to me with more garbage.
Zelrio28 8 months ago
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@Zelrio28 "You should be fucking ashamed of yourselves for dancing and celebrating a murder-suicide because you feel you can use it to justify generalizing hundreds of millions of people."
Now tell me, what part of that was taken out of context?
BigLundi 8 months ago
It should be noted that there is little to no objectivity here (not saying that all Christians are either). But the truth is that if this were to be an educated view over a matter it would present both sides of the case. Plus the matter of misrepresentation of Christian beliefes. Before it goes down as being fact perhaps they should have someone to defend both sides. Also, it would appear that the hosts seem to focus on matters that, if actually compared to Christian doctrine, aren't Christian.
spectersparten 9 months ago
@spectersparten The only reason to present both sides to an argument is when there is proven validity in both sides of the argument. If there is no proven validity to one side of the argument, then no, it doesn't deserve to be taught alongside.
BigLundi 8 months ago
@BigLundi The only reason to present both sides is so that objectivity can be reached regardless of validity of either claims. Then, once objectivity has been reached, a factual comparison can be achieved. This show does no such thing but instead sets up several claims and they are, in fact, not based on truth but presuposition and false ideas. I never said either should be taught, what I said was that this arena, where the validity is being denied without a chance of defense, is foolish.
spectersparten 8 months ago
@spectersparten What are you talking about? Every single person that calls in as a theist caller(which is the vast majority of their callers, as that's who they want to talk to) is asked to first present their argument, definition for god, and why they believe in god. After all of this, then Matt, or Russell, or whoever is hosting at the time, will discuss, or debate with them, their argument for God's existence.
Have you ever even seen an episode from start to finish?
BigLundi 8 months ago
@BigLundi So with this discussion about Ven.X then why isn't he given an opportunity to testify on his own case? Instead someone calls in and it is assumed that everything he says is factuall. On the topic of the callers, are they at all even qualified? This is the only episode I have seen from start to finish but if this is at all a representation of the quality of the callers and arguments then it is far from objective. They make claims and don't seek to back it up. That's all I'm pointing out
spectersparten 8 months ago
@spectersparten Because he's already been found guilty of it. And he's lucky he wasn't sent to prison for it. The only people who 'make claims' are the theist callers. Atheists don't make claims, they simply debunk theistic ones.
In any case, One of the main purposes of this show is to show theists the atheistic view. It's to help people better understand atheists. USUALLY calls like the one here aren't discussed for long, and it wasn't, as you can tell it was a whole of 6 minutes.
BigLundi 8 months ago
@spectersparten How are they being denied without a chance of defence ? Theists coming on the show and trying to defend the claim that God exists takes up the majority of the the time on the show.
ryan84160 8 months ago
@ryan84160 Then why not in this episode? His claim is one that is, in fact, untrue yet no Christian is given a chance to testify? I admit to not watching other videos and if that is an offense then I'm sorry, but this particular video is found lacking in objectivity (and I know that there are many like this out there on both sides of the fense).
spectersparten 8 months ago
@spectersparten This is not an entire episode, this is a 6 minute segment of the episode. Nearly every single episode that I have seen has been theists trying to defend their position for about 60-70% of the time of the entire episode. How can you claim that they don't give theists a chance to speak when you have not seen any of their other videos ? and what claim did they make that was untrue?
ryan84160 8 months ago
@ryan84160 You're right. I claim that in this snippet where Venfx was being criticized at the start he wasn't given a chance to defend himself. Then there was the claim that religion is detrimental to the mentaly ill. I will admit that some religious beliefs are bad for everyone, I would go so far as to say the majority are but that doesn't mean all of them are and when they are lumped together like that it is a broad overgeneralization. As well as the excorcism part, there is bad religion.
spectersparten 8 months ago
@spectersparten Everything that was said about him was true. He has admitted himself. Anyway are you trying to say that t is unfair to criticize someone unless they are always present in the conversation and able to defend themselves in real time ? This is ridiculous.
ryan84160 8 months ago
@spectersparten He did not say that ALL religious beliefs were harmful to the psyche. But anyway, this is his opinion. I happen to agree with him, you happen to disagree and that is fine because no one said you had to. I don't see how this is unfair.
ryan84160 8 months ago
Kent Hovind was 501c3 and tax exempted. His incarceration is unlawful...
ThePersecuted7 9 months ago
@ThePersecuted7 He had SOME tax exempt status, he was NOt, however, in a position to simply pay no taxes ever , which was what he was doing. Several million uncited dollars made and not paid taxes on. That's...illegal. Plus, the funniest part about the whole deal is his usual argument against evolution is, "It's a religion, and I don't want my tax dollars teaching a stupid religion in school."
BigLundi 8 months ago
I was talking to a Christian and he said i was arrogant i then told him to define arrogance he said it was never changing your mind no matter what. I then said would you ever leave Christianity he said he would never do that.
Neeidea 9 months ago
@Neeidea did he get it??? could you see anything in his face to show he understood????? funny story but, kinda worrying O_o
frackcha 8 months ago
@frackcha Yer he got it
Neeidea 8 months ago
Christians were the worst friends I ever had. They were all ignorant, selfish, backstabbing cowards.
john17972 9 months ago
i wish they would stop the music and dance at the start of these video
slovakmath 9 months ago
Get down Matt! They need to bring back different music. I love Steeksma's music but let's keep it fresh.
clipsryan 10 months ago
a thumbs up for matt and a thumbs up for the intro song!!
1991rayder 10 months ago
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Revelation 1 - I am the First and the Last, And the everlasting one. I died, but see, I am alive forevermore; and I possess the keys of death and Hades.
theageofgrace 10 months ago
Tony was mentally unbalance and VFX inspired/contributed to his delusional belief in both their imaginary god. ★★★★★
Katalyzt
Katalyzt 10 months ago 14
@Katalyzt i kinda fell bad for Tony. he must have been really afraid. religion makes you see enemies everywhere.
gethsoftware 5 months ago
@gethsoftware Blame the crappy medical system that made it unlikely somebody that ill got treatment. Also blaming sexual desire. It likely no accident that the girl involved was attractive.
gejost 4 months ago
@Katalyzt blaming VFX for Tony is immoral, dishonest and uncalled for. Tony was mentally ill. He wasn't following Jesus. Jesus doesn't tell people to kill people. The statement in 3:58 is unfair too; I had a friend with schitzophrenia and even fiction set him off. You want to ban people from pubvlishing fiction too?
gejost 4 months ago
Hello gejost,
Read what I said. I did not say or imply that vfx was the sole cause of tony`s mental illness, but he did in fact contribute to his belief in the imaginary; instead of offering or directing him to reality/help.
P.S.
I do not see anything wrong with banning two works of fiction: the bible and the qur’an. ;O)
Katalyzt
Katalyzt 4 months ago
@Katalyzt Both the bible and the qu'ran have inspirational bits. Anyway, book banning tends to make books more popular.
gejost 3 months ago
@Katalyzt VFX being all of 20+ years old, could not possibly have known that tony was mentally ill or likely to kill somebody. If you had met tony at a Star Trek convention, I doubt you would have done better than VFX either. Maybe he had family or friends who could have known but if they did, they were probably trying to convince him to get help. Blame is useless in a case like this.
gejost 3 months ago
Hello gejost ,
If you care to know the truth you can check though old posts involving tony(before he killed himself) and you will see that many people commenting on his instability and also if left of checked he would probably hurt others. Oh, and that his belief in imaginary thing was not helping his condition(which vfx contributed too).
Katalyzt
Katalyzt 3 months ago
@gejost the bible is fiction
bobthecat420 4 months ago
@bobthecat420 A book of historic fiction can also contain some truth. ;). For the record, I don't recall saying that i was a believer in God. Avoid making stupid asssumptions.
gejost 3 months ago
@gejost I didn't make that assumption, and I don't see how you percieved that from my comment. I merely stated that the bible is fiction (New York is a real place, but that doesn't make Spiderman anything but a work of fiction), because you inferred that it isn't. "...and even fiction set him off." Maybe you should take your own advice and avoid making stupid assumptions. ;)
bobthecat420 3 months ago
@gejost quote: "Jesus doesn't tell people to kill people."
Maybe he didn't, but his celestial dad did it all the time. God really got his jollies committing Genocide or getting his followers to do it.
He especially liked killing children, especially the cheeky ones.
HonestMan395 4 months ago 5
@HonestMan395 thats great. defiitely wouldnt want you next to me in a war zone. Notice war is not fought with marshmellows and pillows. If you are against God you are an enemy of God. And the lovey dovey jesus that peopple love to talk about, exclude the fact that He is also wrathful Judgment to fall on the sinner. The hem of his robe drenched in the blood of the guilty. it is the guilty that punish not the innocent. And none are innocent not one except by grace alone.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie You appear to believe that everything is in the hands of god and that anything he does is OK with you, even killing innocents. Having served in the Armed Forces, I wouldn't want you with me in a war zone with me either.
If god was real and on earth as a human, he would now be standing trial for genocide as a dangerous psychotic.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 question. not discrediting your service or that of others. but what exactly was your duty being in the armed forces. Many people are part of it and a big thanks and of course the unit couldn't be as efficient without all its members, but were you putting bullets through domes so to speak? I myself have never served, but i do understand a thing or two about waging war. i dont think i could be bashed for saying a good enemy is a completely dead one.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie quote: 1/2. So, you're happy to be compared with an mindless machine that's blindly programmed to do it's maker's bidding, without ever having an original thought in its processor?
In your case, I'd agree with that. It's obviously that you're incapable of thinking for yourself and deciding the difference between right and wrong. You need to be told, by a higher body, what to do with your life, every step of the way.
You're a good christian. A unthinking automaton. Cont'd.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 I never once compared myself to a mindless computer. I used an example to illustrate what i was saying minus the reality of what a computer is. Way to go making a useless point
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie 2/2. I stand by my point.
Did you not imply that god had the right to slaughter anyone he wants in exactly the same way that a computer designer had the right to:
"smack it (the computer) upside down for not working properly"?
You really are obsessed with killing. You need to seek help.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 minus the computer analogy, yes and no not slaughter. But take life none-the-less. If He is the giver of Life then it is his right to take what is his. Would God owe the human race anything? I then ask you a personal question. You were in a war does that make you a man slaughtering child destroying miscreant? Do justify yourself? As your thoughts on God contradict your role in conflict. It's the nature of war and i do not see you as a killer or murder or any of those sorts.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie Killing in self defence or to prevent a greater disaster, has reluctantly to be used when there is no option.
However, if the bible is to be believed, God, on the other had, kills at a whim and consideration of any collateral damage, include innocent women and children, doesn't seem to enter into his pervue. In fact he goes out of his way to slaughter the innocent for the guilt of the few, even if that perceived guilt is accidental and unintentional.
God is a psychopath.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 thats where you dont seem o understand Gods action. and the pre-conceived idea that men are essentially good, aka mr hobbes and locke. But the destruction of the enemy is preserve the life of The Israelite. If God is true to His His word, "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me/ Don't bow down to something dead with no life" then He must eradicate any resistance that would be detrimental to the Hebrew. Further more It was taking the life of male children.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie 1/2. Quote: "He must eradicate any resistance that would be detrimental to the Hebrew. Further more It was taking the life of male children."
If you believe that that is a justifcation for slaughtering innocent children, then you have a truly sick mind.
And furthermore he took all children, male or female, including all the unborn in the womb. I can give you quotes from your precious bible where that is so. Cont'd.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 no he did not take any from the womb. girls were spared. There was only one instance where the order was to destroy everything. literally everything. the gold the cattle the riches everything nothing was left to be spared. If He had said kill them but keep the spoils that would have different but it was an abhorrence to Him.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 None are innocent. A child may not have sinned, but he is still a sinner. it is the nature of who he is, as a human being, he will grow to be like his fathers father and those before him. My children will be born sinners, but it is the love of God that perseveres, And gives life unlike any other. To those that proclaim wisdom ,even the foolish things will put him to shame. you quote me dawkins. The man whose purpose in life is to convince people there is no purpose in it.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 furthermore if you understood the impact that this had you wouldn't be so indignant of what was done. Furthermore you seem to skirt the allegation i made against the bombers who dropped the h bomb on japan. Were there not innocent women and children there too? yes but death came by the hands of men who have no right to take life, but oh the irony.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 "A man will go to a philosophical meeting and complain that men are treated like savages and beasts. He will then take his hat and umbrella and go to a scientific meeting where he will try to prove they actually are beasts."
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 Shall he child grow to then turn against those that made war against his kin? Furthermore the fellas who dropped the H- bombs on Japan are they not mass murderers as well. No? they did this to preserve the life blood of their country. Were there not children among the casualties. Yet the audacity to brand God a murder when it is His right and His alone to take life, young old what ever He is the culprit when men have done their waging of wars yet they put the blame on one faultless
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie There is no hiding from the fact that, in the words of Richard Dawkins:
"The god of the bible is a Vindictive, Bloodthirsty, Ethnic Cleanser. A misogynistic, homophobic, Racist, Infanticidal, Genocidal, Philacidal, Pestilential, Megalomaniacal, Sado-Masochistic, Capriciously Malevolent Bully."
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 Well then, I will tell you. Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne and I myself have founded great empires; but upon what did these creations of our genius depend? Upon force. Jesus alone founded His empire upon love, and to this very day millions will die for Him. . . . I think I understand something of human nature; and I tell you, all these were men, and I am a man; none else is like Him: Jesus Christ was more than a man
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie . I have inspired multitudes with such an enthusiastic devotion that they would have died for me . . . but to do this is was necessary that I should be visibly present with the electric influence of my looks, my words, of my voice. When I saw men and spoke to them, I lightened up the flame of self-devotion in their hearts. . . . Christ alone has succeeded in so raising the mind of man toward the unseen, that it becomes insensible to the barriers of time and space.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie . He asks for the human heart; He will have it entirely to Himself. He demands it unconditionally; and forthwith His demand is granted. Wonderful! In defiance of time and space, the soul of man, with all its powers and faculties, becomes an annexation to the empire of Christ. All who sincerely believe in Him, experience that remarkable, supernatural love toward Him. This phenomenon is unaccountable; it is altogether beyond the scope of man's creative powers.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie - said by a man who waged war better than both of us and whose influence outlasts even dawkins. -Napoleon Bonaparte Conqueror of Europe.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie Napoleon also said:
”Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet” and
“Religion is what stops the poor from murdering the rich.”
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 yes, but your quote is before he was exiled. He hated God before he was set to nothing but a prisoner. Once exiled after being stripped of his power he contemplated God once more How even the mighty fall.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie You really are obsessed with force and killing and death. you definitely have the sickest mind I've ever come across on you-tube.
Actually, that makes you the perfect follower for your psychotic god.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 You seem to find it easy to point your finger and call me sicko who wants to kill. Regard your thoughts. have i once said i was going to kill anyone one or did i not merely propose a point that was not agreeable to you. Backed into your corner you pass your judgment. lastly The God you fight so earnestly against and declare "dead" you erect your own god in replacement. What contradiction. You have become your own god.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie No, you haven't said that you were going to kill anyone, you just seem to think it's a good idea.
From your writings I get the firm impression that given the opportunity, If you thought your god had told you to and if you thought you could get away with it, you would kill at the drop of a hat.
Accusing me becoming my own god is pathetic, but it's typical of the sort of mind that cannot envisage any world other than through the viewpoint of the idea that there must be a god.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 Would you say no to your duties as a soldier? NO. But you act as if that is the command of the day. The destruction of evil ,is essentially evil according to you. Furthermore, you have become your own god. its great you see it as pathetic analyze your life and its choices your values your ideals etc. whom does it serve or promote? You are your own master and pleases HonestMan395 is what you live by. even your morals and self righteous ethics are yours alone.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 deny it as you may, in an attempt to destroy god, every atheist becomes their own god. And they are absolutley sure in their world of no absolutes.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie I make no attempt to destroy any god. How can you destroy what doesn't exist.
All that is necessary is for someones eyes to be opened to the realities, then let human reason decide for itself.
God then disappears of it's own accord like a vapour.
I pity you in your life of absolute terror, unable to face the inevitable.
When we die it will just be oblivion. No heaven, no hell and no more you or me. get used to it.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 Its interesting to hear from a man who asked the dead. He becomes nothing because lo the dad say....nothing."Let human reason decide for itself" you are your own god unwittingly so. Because you pick and choose what is and what isn't. With no real definition yet you speak in absolutes. the contradiction.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie You just don't get it, do you. I'm not my own god because there are no such things as gods and you haven't presented any evidence to the contrary.
Of course I make my own decisions, based on my upbringing, experience and the circumstances at the time and I don't speak in absolutes, because there are no absolutes.
All moral and ethical decisions are subjective. Objective morality is a myth. Only religious people, incapable of moral decisions of their own, say anything else.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 Are you absolutely sure?
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie Sure of what? that there is no such things as gods?
No true scientist will absolutely deny the possibilty of anything, seeing that it is impossible to prove the non existance of anything, but I can only say that the total lack of any evidence pointing to the existence of any gods, coupled with the overwhelming evidence for a scientific and natural explanation of the universe and life on earth puts the probability of there NOT being any gods at around 99.999999999%.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 are you absolutely sure there are no absolutes.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie As sure as I can be of anything. Morality and ethics have nothing to do with any god given standards.
They are the natural result of an evolutionary process to ensure the survival of the group. Thoroughout history, all successful societies, both religious and secular, have evolved a system of moral guidlines, without which they could not have survived. Those societies that didn't, eventually collapsed.
Even social animals have a basic form of "morals" to protect the group.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 i cant trust your words. Because you give me an absolute statement yet you tell me you don't believe in absolutes because there are no absolutes yet you are absolutely certain of what you are telling me is in fact absolutely true. Furthermore morals and ethics retard evolution. of what gain is it anyone from taking or doing as they please for the survival of ones kin. Is it not more benefical to have no competion.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie What absolute statement did I make?
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 keep fighting the good fight bro. a resource for you (i moderate here, its a good resource, maybe sign up, my username is WhatsAGoodUsername?) ironchariots(dot)o r g
this would be good for the idiot you are arguing against too, as is provides counter-arguments for everything he has said. the site i just recommended to you is the product of the one and only Matt Dilahunty of the atheist experience. his username is Sans Diety.
MoralRapist 2 months ago
@MoralRapist Thankyou. I've found it. It looks very interesting.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 tHERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES. iS THIS NOT IN FACT A STATEMNET CONTRADICTORY OF ITSELF? if nothing is absolute how then can there be a statement that says there is no absolutes indefinitely. That is an absolute statement or only a truth to you. it must be one or the other.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@deltaalphacharlie Is that the best rebuttal you can come up with. You really are running out of ideas.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 if tit is really that ridculous i dont see you addressing it other than it is a ridiculous statment that brings to light what you are attesting to.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie. I was merely stating a fact. Absolutes are by their nature unchanging and unchangeable. Therefore, in a world and society that is constantly changing, there can be no absolutes, other than in the strict scientific sense, i.e. Absolute zero or the speed of light, although now, scientists are even questioning those.
But, compared with those, absolute morality is a myth that only religious people give any credence to.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 yet you question my morals? If i was a killer who was obsessed with killing people, i wouldn't be wrong then. I wouldn't be sick or psychopathic etc etc, according to your "fact." Which still leaves you in contradiction of your own statement by the way.But since morality is a myth, why is your view more credible than mine? are you not the same flesh and bone as i am or you presume you are more than i am. Also you do believe in absolutes then? as you defined it to me above.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie Typical of christians. You are twisting my words. A sure sign that you are backing yourself into a corner from which you have no escape.
Nowhere did I say that morality is a myth, No society could survive without a code of morality and ethics. History has shown that and you know full well what I said, thus adding dishonesty to your delusion.
I said that ABSOLUTE morality is a myth of the religious mind. What is moral is decided by each society for it's needs.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 "You just don't get it, do you. I'm not my own god because there are no such things as gods and you haven't presented any evidence to the contrary.
Of course I make my own decisions, based on my upbringing, experience and the circumstances at the time and I don't speak in absolutes, because there are no absolutes.
All moral and ethical decisions are subjective. Objective morality is a myth. Only religious people, incapable of moral decisions of their own, say anything else."
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie Throwing my words back at me only compounds your dishonesty.
When I said that there were no absolutes, I specifically stated that in reference to Objective morality, as you well know. If you don't, you are illiterate as well.
I even specifically said that ALL moral and ethical decisions are subjective. I NEVER said that all morality was a myth, just that objective morality, so beloved of the religious mind was a myth.
I now wait to see how you are going to twist that.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 I apologized din't i. Playing fair as you would like to deem, you were doing the twisting in the begining weren't you. take notice of that. But i was hoenst enough to catch my mistake, moving if morality is subjective, then answer my question on hitlers actions. Can you tell me he is evil ,or has done wrong? and according to whom, was he not the one calling the shots was he not the source of all orders in germany. If your subjective morality was real, then the whole world owes him
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 my fault i didn't take the objective word into account sorry. any way... if what you say is true what if my society says it's benefical wipe your society off the face of the earth. aka hitler, he thought eradiction of the jews was a sound idea they were the reason for everyones problems. How do you jive with that idea?
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie 1/2. Quote: "if what you say is true what if my society says it's benefical wipe your society off the face of the earth. aka hitler, he thought eradiction of the jews was a sound idea they were the reason for everyones problems"
First, it was not the society who said that. It was a small group including Hitler, who manipulated a defeated and demoralised public who had been humiliated after WW I, and who considered that they had a grievance to settle with the Jews. Cont’d.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 the aka is a different idea. i should have said it better to make it clear thats my fault but none the less. I didn't see you say anything on his actions. In doing so you contradict your statement. Further hitler was no Christian...evidence-------Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@HonestMan395
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7) If anything.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie 2/2. and don’t twist my words and say that I'm saying I agree with that. I state it as a reason, not a justification.
However, he was opposed by most of the other nations of the world including, secular ones, and was defeated.
Hitler, by the way, although he probably was not a conventional catholic, he was most certainly a believer in God and most of his army would have been either catholic or Lutheran. Where was your objective morality there? Cont’d.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie 3/3. Hitler was much like your god, who, if the bible is true, ordered his people to commit genocide on a number of occasions and in spite of, or maybe because of their Objective morality, they were only too pleased to comply.
The difference between Hitler and your god is that most people today, even Germans, think that Hitler was a monster who deserved to be deposed.
Whereas, all “good” christians think that god is a pretty good guy for doing what the bible says he did.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 if anything he was an atheist . my my. Those were taken out of the book hitlers secret conversations.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie 1/3. I take it you’re referring to the quotes:
"I shall never come to terms with the Christian lie." And
"Our epoch will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity".
And others in that vein.
I take it that, if you have actually read the table talk conversations, which I doubt, and not just seen them on some apologetics website, then you, like me, will have read the English translation, which was taken from the French translation, where these quotes appear. Cont’d.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie 2/3. However, they don’t appear in the original German, from which the French translation was made.
They were actually added by translator, François Genoud and do not appear in any other document.
Nowhere, In the conversations, does Hitler speak against Jesus or his own brand of Christianity. Actually, he speaks about Jesus with admiration.
He did criticise organised religion in a political sense, just as many Christians do today, but NEVER in a religious sense
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie 3/3. Also, the supposed "anti-Christian" portions of the conversations conflict with all Hitler’s own writings and His actions for what he called "positive" Christianity.
“I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.”
Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2
There're many quotes on the same lines as that. If Hitler was an atheist, why did he keep saying that he believed in God, had faith in God, and was convinced that he was doing God's work.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 i am honest and man enough to have gone out and researched said quotes of hitler and yes they were probably not his. sorry i pulled a site up to read his history only to come across these quotes without considering origin. None-the-less. if he believed what he did can you still point your finger and question his subjective moral views. By the way he was catholic as reliable source confirms. and as the guy below states. that has problems in and of itself. But back to the point.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie I admire your honesty. There is hope for you yet. :))
I was a fraud investigator for many years and I learned when it comes to research, it is always wise to checkout a number of varied sources before accepting anything as true, even from me. :) I would say at least three, but the more the better.
That's why I have a problem with the bible. Apart from in the bible itself, there is no independent verification of any of the major events in the bible. quite the reverse, in fact.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 There are outside sources that do attest to the things that occurred in Judea at that time. Though, the way the represent these events are in the negative. in fact mockingly they state these events as to call the Christ followers idiotic fools etc, and Christ himself a disillusioned miscreant. One also considers the twelve men that went to their graves as prisoners and captives holding fast to their "story."
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 this is what authenticates what happened, Their experiences being what they saw and heard and went through. All of the followers of Christ were either beheaded, crucified, stoned, or were put to death in some way, except John who died of natural causes. But here is the authenticity. They all held fast to the promises, the life death, Resurrection of Christ. They went out preaching these things they saw and heard. They were all eventually put to death for refusing to keep quiet.cont
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 Even in the face of death they did not recant what they preached, they enforced it even more. People will die for what they BELIEVE to be the truth, but no one will die for a lie they know is a lie, when they gain nothing but lose everything including the lives of family members and friends. It is the greatest hoax ever played in history if it was a lie. But their are elements of the story which retard even the soundest conspiracy for what they preached. if you wish to know ask me.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 i just say this in interest of saving us both trouble from excessive typing is it is irritating on these stop and go 400 word max comment boxes. However back to the point. All of this, all the things that the Life of Christ has inspired, or had inspired could have all came crumbling down in one minute. seconds even. No faith based loonies etc etc, today. All that had to be done was to produce the body of Jesus Christ.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
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HonestMan395 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie 1/5. Quote: “There are outside sources that do attest to the things that occurred in Judea at that time.”
Which sources are they?
Quote: “One also considers the twelve men that went to their graves as prisoners and captives holding fast to their "story." This is what authenticates what happened.”
There were actually 13 disciples, if you count Matthias, Judas’ successor.
As Judas committed suicide before the resurrection we can’t count him as dying for a false cause. Cont’d.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 hmm, good point on a technicality, yes excluding Judas Iscariot, apostles present after the resurrection were put to death, i should have detailed more so my fault.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie 1/3. I've read your comments and I've read your PM's and although at first, I thought we had some common ground. I now realise that we are coming at this from completely different angles.
You are accepting that the bible is completely accurate, whereas I start from the position that, because there are so many demonstrable inaccuracies in the bible, I accept nothing from the bible or writings derived from it as true unless backed up by verfiable independent evidence. Cont'd.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie 2/5. Of the remaining 12, according to tradition and the Bible, four of the remaining disciples died of natural causes. Only eight are claimed to have been martyrs, but there’s no independent verification of this and all stories of their deaths only appear for the first time between 100 and 150 yrs after their supposed deaths, written by the 2nd and 3rd century authors Hippolytus and Eusebius, who is known as the Father of Church history. Cont’d.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie 3/5. Unfortunately, Eusebius is known for “tweeking” the truth in his writings. There are many examples in his writings of this. He saw nothing wrong in it, if he thought it was to the benefit of the faith and martyrs are very good for religions.
However, even if the deaths are true, apart from what we know about Eusebius, the deaths still don’t prove Jesus’ divinity.
For one thing, it’s unlikely that, even if they wanted to recant, they would be given the opportunity. Cont'd
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie 4/5. Confessions were not normally accepted to avoid punishment. Once the decision had been taken to execute, the only confession that would be listened to, was an admission of guilt. A Recantation would neither have been sort, nor welcomed.
Even if they did know that their stories were false, dying for a cause you know is false, is not unknown, even today. Jim Jones and David Koresh are examples of this. Unfortunately, self-deception is part of the human psyche. Cont’d.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 Thats a difference. though. They can only believe in their cause they don't have access to first hand account. That can be said of suicide bombers as well can' it? they are no different than Jim Jones.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie 2/3. You cannot use any document including the bible to prove itself and as there's virtually no independent documentory or physical evidence for the whole of the life of Jesus or many of the cornerstone events of the bible, I cannot accept your claims for the accuracy of the resurrection or even the crucifixion itself without corroboration. There are no Roman records of any such event having taken place and I cannot believe that something that size would have gone unreported.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 look at this site. i read through it myself to make sure there weren't any glorified attempts to present the gospels in sketchy truths. i will pm you because i dont know how to paste in these boxes.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago
@deltaalphacharlie 5/5. There is another controversial reason, but one that has a lot of circumstantial evidence supporting it.
It is that Jesus didn’t die on the cross, but was revived, however, due to the circumstances of the crucifixion, it was thought to be a resurrection.
I can give my reasons for this, but it would be very detailed and difficult to fit into the 500 letter restrictions of the comments section. However, I would be happy to send it to you via PM.
HonestMan395 2 months ago
@HonestMan395 sure you can send it. In the mean time i doubt that a revival Occurred, because His legs would have been broken to induce death because it was a Sabbath, that He was hung on the cross. Normally it took a while to die via crucifixion, it wold take even up to a few days. But this couldn't happen because Jewish Law states that By the Sabbath No bodies are to be hung on the tree . They had to induce death to get them off the tree before the start of the sabbath.
deltaalphacharlie 2 months ago