@LawdHelp: Again...Speaking with 'grace' and being 'dignified' makes no difference if you are lying. In fact, it makes it worse. I have more respect for a liar who struggles so hard with his dishonesty and he cannot fool anyone. There is nothing worse than a polished liar. Just as Dante. ;-)
Well, the support for the same sex marriage and gay priests stuff is pretty tenuous at best. My real concern with this woman is her claim that Jesus is not the only path to salvation. By that thinking why go to church at all? Why not simply head out into the hinterlands of cults and try out paganism? A Bishop should not be claiming such things publicly; a Bishop should be a guardian of the faith.
If she thinks the way she does, why is she a bishop, anyway?
I mean, this kind of thinking is probably what has caused the massive shrinking of the Episcopal church. No, I'm not saying that we should be fundamentalist; the freedom of thought within the church is one of the best parts about Anglicanism. However, claiming Christ is not the only way to salvation is simply denominational suicide. Not even the Buddhists claim that there is another way to Nirvana. They're the most wishy washy religion on earth!!!
This is why there is so little evangelism left in the church. We should be spending less time trying to appear palatable to hardcore unbelievers who despise us anyway and will never follow the teachings of Christ and spend more time evangelizing like the RC's and Evangelicals do. Otherwise the Episcopal Church will be gone within a few generations; unless we simply want to become the official church of the G/L/B community. Another community, might I add, who overwhelmingly hates us anyway!
I have articulated my position, but I will now bow out. I have been in enough of these discussions to know that neither one of us is going to change our minds. Do what you want with what I have said, but at this point I would prefer not to get into yet another futile debate on Youtbe.
Look, I am not trying to say I am better than her or anything. I just don't understand how someone calling themselves Christian can dismiss the fundamental beliefs. I am not being a fundy splitting hairs on doctrinal details. She has gone on national television and denied Jesus as being the only way to salvation. You may agree with her, but there is no denying that such a denial on her part is antithetical to what the church has taught for centuries.
And if Catholics represent the majority of Christianity, it's not by any strecth an overwhelming majority. It actually breaks down to being pretty even among Protestants and Catholics worldwide. And denominational breakdown numbers are some of the most dubious stats in the world. The fact is most church "memberships" are people who only go to church once or twice a year and don't really know what their church teaches.
And you asked on what grounds I question her vocation. I am not questioning her vocation. I said I don't understand why someone with her beliefs would even want to be a bishop. She's really more of a secular-humanist. I am questioning her confession. And I am doing that on the grounds of scripture. She denies John 14 and many other truths that have been fundamental to the Christian faith since it's inception.
I will admit that you're not going to find Justiification by faith alone proclaimed as boldly by the very early church fathers as it was by Luther and Calvin, but that's because it was presumed, and it wasn't being attacked from within the church. But it didn't take long. Read Augustine and you'll see a pretty clear and bold articulation of it, as he was responding to Pelagianism.
It's one thing for conservatives to major in the minors and ignore certain passages, and that is problematic that they do that. But it's an entirely different thing to deny the very doctrine that has defined the Christian faith since it's inception; Justification by faith alone in Christ alone, and still want to be called not only a Christian, not only a pastor, but a bishop, and a presiding bishop at that.
I really don't understand why someone with her beliefs would even want to be a pastor. She denies individual salvation. Se denies the uniqueness of Christ. She probably denies the Trinity and the virgin birth. She has every right to hold to those beliefs, but the fact is by doing so she is rejecting beliefs that the church has held to as fundamental for centuries. I don't see how she can deny those beliefs and still call herself a Christian.
Who are you to question her vocation to being a pastor? That is what is wrong with so many christians in this world, they love to point fingers at others and judge life if they are somehow free from sin. That does not seem to be Jesus' message. Justification by faith alone is hardly a doctrine that has defined Christianity. It did not become popularized until the Reformation . The Catholic Church, which includes the majority of Christians does not adhere to that, nor has it ever.
Read the church fathers and you'll see that justification by faith alone has been taught since day one. Heck read Romans and Galatians, it's all over them. It's all through the Bible, even the OT. This may not be what you have been taught but an objective look at the church fathers will show I am right. And actually some Catholics do believe in justification by faith alone.
On another note. When did I say I am free from sin?? Oh that's right I didn't.
The secular media loves her and her ilk because they're really every bit as secular as the media.But when you look beyond that to the world of biblical scholarship, you see her views are in the vast minority and becoming moreso everyday. And I am not in a conservative denomination. I have studied under liberal and conservative scholars, and her universalist views aren't even embraced by all liberal scholars. I predict that in 10-15 years TEC will be all but obsolete.
There is no license given in scripture to hate, deride, or persecute GLBT's. On the contrary, it will be by love and kindness that we will make any impression on anyone outside of Christ.
However, we cannot show love by glossing over ANY sin, and homosexuality is clearly an abomination to God, and it is unnatural, degrading, indecent and ultimately wrong.
Schori's argument using cultural context is weak, God does not change and it is an abomination TO HIM no matter who commits the act.
It's nice to see how you hand pick what parts of scripture to follow and which to ignore. How much does the old testament say that even the most conservative christian denominations ignore? Homosexuality is not any more unnatural than being left-handed. Who's taught you that homosexuality is unnatural? It's existed since humans began walking this Earth and is observed in animals.
And yes God does not change, but he did not write the bible, man did.
A lot of things have existed since human beings began walking the earth, does that make it all ok?? And I love the logic that a behavior must be acceptable if it's observed in the animal world. By that logic, it would be ok to eat our children.
You need to avoid putting words in people's mouth. I never said that something observed in the animal world is acceptable behavior. Conservatives use the logic that homosexuality is unnatural because it is not seen in the animal world, something that is false. A person's sexual orientation should not be a batter of acceptable or unacceptable. It's something people have no control over. it's like saying that it's acceptable to have blue eyes and unacceptable to have green eyes.
Romans Ch.1:26.For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27.and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
3.For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4.and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
Remarkably restrained answers there, Griffith. Very unexpected. Are you also happy about the slaying of Dr. Tiller too? I don't go to SFIF so I haven't seen whether or not you condone violence against liberals.
And I respect people like Greg Griffith less and less, because it is almost like people of HIS ilk would almost want to do like Jim Adkisson did in the UU church last July and shoot her. Some of the conservatives really do scare the crap out of me. I think one of them IS going to snap and do something violent one of these days - and before you ask, Jim Adkisson was a huge proponent of "conservative" thought.
To continue from my previous note: yes, Jim Adkisson listened to the likes of Limbaugh, Hannity and read very staunchly conservative books - and of course, like most conservatives, was very insistent upon his Second Amendment rights, which is how he had the firearms to wreak the havoc he did in Tennessee Valley UU Church, blaming the "liberals" for all the ills in the world.
Does that make you happy, conservatives? Are you glad 2 liberals died that day?
I suspect you never did have any respect for people like me to begin with, so the fact that you "respect me less and less" isn't something I'm going to lose any sleep over.
Besides, the only "snapping" I'm seeing re the gay debate in America is gay activists intimidating Prop 8 supporters. Try looking at the beam in your own eye first, pal.
Grace and dignity?? Please she is simply regurgitating the same revisioist clap-trap that she has been spouting since she took office. What she doesn't mention is that it's only a "handful" of scholars who support the views she is spouting. What a beacon of open-mindedness you are, equating all conservatives with a murderer. It's amazing to me that some of you liberals, not all, will make statements like that and your own hypocrisy will go right past you.
Interesting that you didn't give a reply to the issue of how conservative christians only follow the parts of the bible that are convenient to them. I don't know what world you live in but I assure you that more than a handful of scholars will agree with the bishop. Probably not within your particular denomination but definitely throughout society at large. Are you also one of those christians that believe God actually created the Earth in a week?
I live in a world where I have studied many biblical scholars, and I know for certain that her views are in the vast minority. She is simply a remnant of the revisionist Marcus Borg, Jack Spong crowd along with the Jesus seminar crowd. Even in their heyday they were in the minority. And yes there are conservatives who pick and choose. I never denied that so your accusations of avoiding that are baseless. People think her views are more in the norm because they get press.
I'd really like to know where you've done all of your biblical studies. A great number of biblical scholars interpret the bible through the lens of their already preconceived beliefs with the aim of finding justification for what they already think they know. I suggest you look into more objective sources and you'll see that the majority will tell disagree with you.
And we, therefore, who by his will have been called in Jesus Christ, are not justified of ourselves or by our wisdom or insight of religious devotion or the holy deeds we have done from the heart, but by that faith by which almighty God has justified all men from the very beginning. To him be glory forever and ever. Amen.
Clement written about 95 AD
And that is just one example of a church father espousing the virtues of justification by faith alone.
Objectivity is exactly the point. She is anything but objective. She reads the Bible through the lens of her pre-ceonceived notions of the world. That is not an objectively Christian reading of the Bible, that is a subjectively humanist reading. The only pre-conceived notion I have when it comes to the Bible is that it's true. And this is not just blind faith, I have been convinced by the historical and archaeological evidence.
Not that I need to give you my credentials like you seem to think, but I actually studied at pretty liberal Lutheran seminary. I learned from confessionals and revisionists, and it was clear that the confessionals were reading scripture objectively and historically. While the revisisonists were more inclined toward eiesegesis. I have read everyone from the church fathers to Marcus Borg and am convinced that the revisionists are wrong.
@tlh215: Speaking with 'grace' and being 'dignified' makes no difference if you are lying. In fact, it makes it worse. I have more respect for a liar who struggles so hard with his dishonesty and he cannot fool anyone. There is nothing worse than a polished liar. Just as Dante. ;-) Also...something violent from conservatives. Hum. Like the violence in Oakland recently? Or how about those 'conservatives' in Providence, Rhode Island who threw condoms at a group of Catholic girls outside a school!
Well, we already know that conservatives "cherry pick" the Scriptures just as much as any liberal is said to do.
You can tell by looking at Romans 13:1-7. According to that verse, Benedict Arnold should be a hero and the Founding Fathers of the US heretical flaming sinners. They rebelled against their God-given king.
Oh, and all Anglicans should be rushing back to the RCC as fast as they can!
Yet American conservatives think that our Founding Fathers were such ideal Christians. Hah! Hardly that. Ben Franklin was a Deist. Jefferson himself was a Unitarian, and he wrote into a letter he could foresee a day when Unitarianism would be the faith of all America.
I would think you all would be aware of all this by now.
*Some* American conservatives think that, yes. *Some* American liberals are under mistaken impressions about their articles of faith as well. To generalize about the intelligence of all conservatives or all liberals based on either fact is... well... pretty stupid.
How remarkably dignified and thoughtful. I am proud to have her as Presiding Bishop of my church.
LawdHelp 1 year ago
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@LawdHelp: Again...Speaking with 'grace' and being 'dignified' makes no difference if you are lying. In fact, it makes it worse. I have more respect for a liar who struggles so hard with his dishonesty and he cannot fool anyone. There is nothing worse than a polished liar. Just as Dante. ;-)
englishteach26 3 weeks ago
I really do like her way of thinking. Why be literal about homosexuality and not the dietary laws of Moses, offering animal sacrifices, etc.?
sweetgothicrevenge 2 years ago
Well, the support for the same sex marriage and gay priests stuff is pretty tenuous at best. My real concern with this woman is her claim that Jesus is not the only path to salvation. By that thinking why go to church at all? Why not simply head out into the hinterlands of cults and try out paganism? A Bishop should not be claiming such things publicly; a Bishop should be a guardian of the faith.
If she thinks the way she does, why is she a bishop, anyway?
Lupos1987 2 years ago
I mean, this kind of thinking is probably what has caused the massive shrinking of the Episcopal church. No, I'm not saying that we should be fundamentalist; the freedom of thought within the church is one of the best parts about Anglicanism. However, claiming Christ is not the only way to salvation is simply denominational suicide. Not even the Buddhists claim that there is another way to Nirvana. They're the most wishy washy religion on earth!!!
Lupos1987 2 years ago
This is why there is so little evangelism left in the church. We should be spending less time trying to appear palatable to hardcore unbelievers who despise us anyway and will never follow the teachings of Christ and spend more time evangelizing like the RC's and Evangelicals do. Otherwise the Episcopal Church will be gone within a few generations; unless we simply want to become the official church of the G/L/B community. Another community, might I add, who overwhelmingly hates us anyway!
Lupos1987 2 years ago
@Lupos1987: Good point. How is that outreach to the gay and lesbian community working out? How is it materializing into numbers in the pews? ;-)
englishteach26 3 weeks ago
@englishteach26 I don't know. How are those coverups and molestations doing for the Roman Catholics?
Lupostehgreat 3 weeks ago
@Lupostehgreat: Since I am not Roman Catholic, I have no idea. ;-)
englishteach26 3 weeks ago
I have articulated my position, but I will now bow out. I have been in enough of these discussions to know that neither one of us is going to change our minds. Do what you want with what I have said, but at this point I would prefer not to get into yet another futile debate on Youtbe.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
Look, I am not trying to say I am better than her or anything. I just don't understand how someone calling themselves Christian can dismiss the fundamental beliefs. I am not being a fundy splitting hairs on doctrinal details. She has gone on national television and denied Jesus as being the only way to salvation. You may agree with her, but there is no denying that such a denial on her part is antithetical to what the church has taught for centuries.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
And if Catholics represent the majority of Christianity, it's not by any strecth an overwhelming majority. It actually breaks down to being pretty even among Protestants and Catholics worldwide. And denominational breakdown numbers are some of the most dubious stats in the world. The fact is most church "memberships" are people who only go to church once or twice a year and don't really know what their church teaches.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
And you asked on what grounds I question her vocation. I am not questioning her vocation. I said I don't understand why someone with her beliefs would even want to be a bishop. She's really more of a secular-humanist. I am questioning her confession. And I am doing that on the grounds of scripture. She denies John 14 and many other truths that have been fundamental to the Christian faith since it's inception.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
I will admit that you're not going to find Justiification by faith alone proclaimed as boldly by the very early church fathers as it was by Luther and Calvin, but that's because it was presumed, and it wasn't being attacked from within the church. But it didn't take long. Read Augustine and you'll see a pretty clear and bold articulation of it, as he was responding to Pelagianism.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
It's one thing for conservatives to major in the minors and ignore certain passages, and that is problematic that they do that. But it's an entirely different thing to deny the very doctrine that has defined the Christian faith since it's inception; Justification by faith alone in Christ alone, and still want to be called not only a Christian, not only a pastor, but a bishop, and a presiding bishop at that.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
I really don't understand why someone with her beliefs would even want to be a pastor. She denies individual salvation. Se denies the uniqueness of Christ. She probably denies the Trinity and the virgin birth. She has every right to hold to those beliefs, but the fact is by doing so she is rejecting beliefs that the church has held to as fundamental for centuries. I don't see how she can deny those beliefs and still call herself a Christian.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
Who are you to question her vocation to being a pastor? That is what is wrong with so many christians in this world, they love to point fingers at others and judge life if they are somehow free from sin. That does not seem to be Jesus' message. Justification by faith alone is hardly a doctrine that has defined Christianity. It did not become popularized until the Reformation . The Catholic Church, which includes the majority of Christians does not adhere to that, nor has it ever.
samot8728 2 years ago
Read the church fathers and you'll see that justification by faith alone has been taught since day one. Heck read Romans and Galatians, it's all over them. It's all through the Bible, even the OT. This may not be what you have been taught but an objective look at the church fathers will show I am right. And actually some Catholics do believe in justification by faith alone.
On another note. When did I say I am free from sin?? Oh that's right I didn't.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
The secular media loves her and her ilk because they're really every bit as secular as the media.But when you look beyond that to the world of biblical scholarship, you see her views are in the vast minority and becoming moreso everyday. And I am not in a conservative denomination. I have studied under liberal and conservative scholars, and her universalist views aren't even embraced by all liberal scholars. I predict that in 10-15 years TEC will be all but obsolete.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
There is no license given in scripture to hate, deride, or persecute GLBT's. On the contrary, it will be by love and kindness that we will make any impression on anyone outside of Christ.
However, we cannot show love by glossing over ANY sin, and homosexuality is clearly an abomination to God, and it is unnatural, degrading, indecent and ultimately wrong.
Schori's argument using cultural context is weak, God does not change and it is an abomination TO HIM no matter who commits the act.
conian7 2 years ago
It's nice to see how you hand pick what parts of scripture to follow and which to ignore. How much does the old testament say that even the most conservative christian denominations ignore? Homosexuality is not any more unnatural than being left-handed. Who's taught you that homosexuality is unnatural? It's existed since humans began walking this Earth and is observed in animals.
And yes God does not change, but he did not write the bible, man did.
samot8728 2 years ago
A lot of things have existed since human beings began walking the earth, does that make it all ok?? And I love the logic that a behavior must be acceptable if it's observed in the animal world. By that logic, it would be ok to eat our children.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
You need to avoid putting words in people's mouth. I never said that something observed in the animal world is acceptable behavior. Conservatives use the logic that homosexuality is unnatural because it is not seen in the animal world, something that is false. A person's sexual orientation should not be a batter of acceptable or unacceptable. It's something people have no control over. it's like saying that it's acceptable to have blue eyes and unacceptable to have green eyes.
samot8728 2 years ago
Romans Ch.1:26.For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27.and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
conian7 2 years ago
2 Timothy 4
3.For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4.and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
conian7 2 years ago
Remarkably restrained answers there, Griffith. Very unexpected. Are you also happy about the slaying of Dr. Tiller too? I don't go to SFIF so I haven't seen whether or not you condone violence against liberals.
tlh215 2 years ago
Happy? No.
Am I glad Tiller won't be able to murder babies any more? Absolutely.
greggriffith 2 years ago
Such grace and dignity under fire.
I admire her more and more.
And I respect people like Greg Griffith less and less, because it is almost like people of HIS ilk would almost want to do like Jim Adkisson did in the UU church last July and shoot her. Some of the conservatives really do scare the crap out of me. I think one of them IS going to snap and do something violent one of these days - and before you ask, Jim Adkisson was a huge proponent of "conservative" thought.
tlh215 2 years ago
To continue from my previous note: yes, Jim Adkisson listened to the likes of Limbaugh, Hannity and read very staunchly conservative books - and of course, like most conservatives, was very insistent upon his Second Amendment rights, which is how he had the firearms to wreak the havoc he did in Tennessee Valley UU Church, blaming the "liberals" for all the ills in the world.
Does that make you happy, conservatives? Are you glad 2 liberals died that day?
tlh215 2 years ago
I suspect you never did have any respect for people like me to begin with, so the fact that you "respect me less and less" isn't something I'm going to lose any sleep over.
Besides, the only "snapping" I'm seeing re the gay debate in America is gay activists intimidating Prop 8 supporters. Try looking at the beam in your own eye first, pal.
greggriffith 2 years ago
@greggriffith: Amen! The proof is all over the local news cameras in California and cannot be taken down.
englishteach26 3 weeks ago
Grace and dignity?? Please she is simply regurgitating the same revisioist clap-trap that she has been spouting since she took office. What she doesn't mention is that it's only a "handful" of scholars who support the views she is spouting. What a beacon of open-mindedness you are, equating all conservatives with a murderer. It's amazing to me that some of you liberals, not all, will make statements like that and your own hypocrisy will go right past you.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
Interesting that you didn't give a reply to the issue of how conservative christians only follow the parts of the bible that are convenient to them. I don't know what world you live in but I assure you that more than a handful of scholars will agree with the bishop. Probably not within your particular denomination but definitely throughout society at large. Are you also one of those christians that believe God actually created the Earth in a week?
samot8728 2 years ago
I live in a world where I have studied many biblical scholars, and I know for certain that her views are in the vast minority. She is simply a remnant of the revisionist Marcus Borg, Jack Spong crowd along with the Jesus seminar crowd. Even in their heyday they were in the minority. And yes there are conservatives who pick and choose. I never denied that so your accusations of avoiding that are baseless. People think her views are more in the norm because they get press.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
I'd really like to know where you've done all of your biblical studies. A great number of biblical scholars interpret the bible through the lens of their already preconceived beliefs with the aim of finding justification for what they already think they know. I suggest you look into more objective sources and you'll see that the majority will tell disagree with you.
samot8728 2 years ago
And we, therefore, who by his will have been called in Jesus Christ, are not justified of ourselves or by our wisdom or insight of religious devotion or the holy deeds we have done from the heart, but by that faith by which almighty God has justified all men from the very beginning. To him be glory forever and ever. Amen.
Clement written about 95 AD
And that is just one example of a church father espousing the virtues of justification by faith alone.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
Objectivity is exactly the point. She is anything but objective. She reads the Bible through the lens of her pre-ceonceived notions of the world. That is not an objectively Christian reading of the Bible, that is a subjectively humanist reading. The only pre-conceived notion I have when it comes to the Bible is that it's true. And this is not just blind faith, I have been convinced by the historical and archaeological evidence.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
Not that I need to give you my credentials like you seem to think, but I actually studied at pretty liberal Lutheran seminary. I learned from confessionals and revisionists, and it was clear that the confessionals were reading scripture objectively and historically. While the revisisonists were more inclined toward eiesegesis. I have read everyone from the church fathers to Marcus Borg and am convinced that the revisionists are wrong.
MackLeeGreen 2 years ago
@tlh215: Speaking with 'grace' and being 'dignified' makes no difference if you are lying. In fact, it makes it worse. I have more respect for a liar who struggles so hard with his dishonesty and he cannot fool anyone. There is nothing worse than a polished liar. Just as Dante. ;-) Also...something violent from conservatives. Hum. Like the violence in Oakland recently? Or how about those 'conservatives' in Providence, Rhode Island who threw condoms at a group of Catholic girls outside a school!
englishteach26 3 weeks ago
how does this not answer you morons?
she completely answered your question fool
cphoover11 3 years ago
This is PRICELESS indeed!
armandoke 3 years ago
AGAIN, with the SHELLFISH! Weak, weak answer.
Her objection to the New Testament passages, just as weak. These are the same answers I heard on campus in 1980.
Don't the Revisionists have any think tanks to dream up trickier (though, of course, still false) answers?
Props to Greg for asking the question. I expect this YouTube clip will be entered into evidence against KJS on Judgment Day.
anglicanbeachparty 3 years ago
Well, we already know that conservatives "cherry pick" the Scriptures just as much as any liberal is said to do.
You can tell by looking at Romans 13:1-7. According to that verse, Benedict Arnold should be a hero and the Founding Fathers of the US heretical flaming sinners. They rebelled against their God-given king.
Oh, and all Anglicans should be rushing back to the RCC as fast as they can!
tlh215 2 years ago
Yet American conservatives think that our Founding Fathers were such ideal Christians. Hah! Hardly that. Ben Franklin was a Deist. Jefferson himself was a Unitarian, and he wrote into a letter he could foresee a day when Unitarianism would be the faith of all America.
I would think you all would be aware of all this by now.
tlh215 2 years ago
*Some* American conservatives think that, yes. *Some* American liberals are under mistaken impressions about their articles of faith as well. To generalize about the intelligence of all conservatives or all liberals based on either fact is... well... pretty stupid.
greggriffith 2 years ago