Talking About Positive Thinking, a response to decky 11

[neeruam8]

Thank you for your comments. As an atheist you have a greater ethical sense than most positivity proponents. Extreme focus on "good energy" diminishes the importance of ethical considerations in the minds of many. It is a way of blaming the victim. The oppressive expectation that one be positive 24/7 has, as you say, taken from people awareness and appreciation of emotions that can guide them. It has also stripped them of kindness and the expectation of kindness.

[CityzenJane]

the new threading is really f'ed up!

But yes, in the states we do have a certain type of person who is relentlessly fake and cheery...and you just know there's some deep imbalance going on.

That said... Americans do really have a very pragmatic and positive outlook..we after all were all the people that left the old dreary places where nothing seemed possible or probable. We're self selected that way...

[CityzenJane]

I think you have this sort of 'stack' idea of how we process emotions - or how we think about things. I mean this is probably a distinctly American affliction. We are certainly an individualist country...sometimes to our detriment collectlively. That said...negative perseveration - interpreting an event ONE WAY you are trapped. To see it from multiple directions..enables some choice in the matter.

I don't disagree what is lost in this is justified fire that fuels an active population..

[kurtilein3]

@CityzenJane

i agree, but another thing that is key here that if you force yourself to always think positively, you will take on that subprime loan and buy that nice house and a car on top of it, which you will only be able to keep if you manage to keep that great job at that startup company you just got for 15 years, and if mortgage rates dont rise.

but hey, you have to always be positive, isnt that what success is about, taking on high risks with high confidence and having it work out?

[CityzenJane]

@kurtilein3 leaving the sarcasm aside.... When we are talking about personal progress...If you think you CANNOT you are as right as if you think you CAN. If you think you cannot you will confirm your suspicion by doing very little and being set back greatly by every obstacle. If you think you can and that success (at your own goals) is possible you will be equipped to handle the failures that go along with trying...

This also goes for ACTIVISM and fighting back.

[CityzenJane]

Also Decky is talking about the shitty treatment she gets because of her views... and I am an atheist and I watch these debates...full mostly of people (with some wonderful exceptions on both sides) of assholes trying to 'pwn' people...

I disagree with just about everything Decky is saying right now and hope she finds a path that will serve her well in the long run - but she's a person on her own journey.

Success is about getting up again after you fail and being brave enough to try again.

[CityzenJane]

Taking the subprime is not 'being positive" it's being a mathmatical illiterate - we have plenty of them here...

[kurtilein3]

@CityzenJane

a person with a healthy mixture of optimism and pessimism in that situation would stay in his small flat and keep using the motorcycle he already has when getting this nice job, and first see and wait how money actually accumulates with that nice job without raising the standart of living immediately, and wouldnt go for the house and car before chances that it actually works out are high enough, even without the magical influence of positive thinking.

[BornHomophobictOO]

Decky11 is a mental patient in denial trying to self medicate and self treat.

More delusion that postive thinking can undo the laws of science.  If we all just think positive then we will beable find different ways..

She can think positive all she wants, So can you it will not keep you from spending eternity alone..

[ozjthomas]

I think I understand more where you come from now. Thanks.

[ozjthomas]

I thought at first you were taking too defensive a position, but I think given how certain kinds of "positive thinking" do nothing to help those who are suffering. Happiness doesn't mean much if you're just covering your ears and saying lalalalala.

[kurtilein3]

"Happiness doesn't mean much if you're just covering your ears and saying lalalalala. "

exactly.

its similar to the religious concept: "pray. if it doesnt work, pray harder. if it goes wrong, you didnt pray hard enough."

the main problem is that if it goes wrong, according to the ideology its always your fault. what if actually its irrational laws, or the political system, or the structure of the company, or just a disease that strikes randomly in combination with no useful healthcare?

[CityzenJane]

No actually I disagree... you think about people you love and good times - you release neurotransmitters that positively effect you. If you perserverate on the negative things that happen to you (which is to unproductively meditate on them) - you release the fight or flight transmitters and hormones...

Positive thinking is not simply woo woo.

How you view your options matters. Thinking yourself into a trap can cause panic attacks...

I know from a great deal of experience that it matters.

[CityzenJane]

When I say this I do not mean to suggest that you should actively supress every negative thought - but that you can in fact victimize yourself by locking in to ONE way of seeing the present and your options...

[TheAist]

ive definitely noticed that skepticism makes me very contrary to everyone on everything. it seems negative a lot of times. But, i'd rather be skeptic than accepting.

[kurtilein3]

to everyone on everything?

there are many people out there that value skepticism, even if you call into question their own beliefs and the stuff they do. for most ordinary people, the question "how do you know that?" can be highly uncomfortable. for some, the opposite is the case, some people want their beliefs to be scrutinized, because they already did it themselves to the best of their ability, and they want to progress further, and then this question has the highest value.

[TheAist]

you're right. most my friends, at least online, are skeptic, and i dont have problems with them, or them with me...but thats like 0.00001% of everyone. i dont know any skeptics personally in real life.

[TheFallibleFiend]

Your commentary is insightful as usual, but also compassionate towards her. You also demonstrate that being compassionate doesn't mean you have to coddle someone.

[OccamsView]

Positive thinking just for itself is empty. I find I'm happiest when I'm actively physically working towards the betterment of my family, community, state, country and planet. Just thinking about doing it doesn't cut it for me.

[kurtilein3]

yes, thats something i should have mentioned in the vid. its almost impossible to just sit in a chair and do nothing and be happy for more than maybe 2 minutes unless you are skilled in meditation or abusing drugs. but when you do something that you are very good at, and if its a challenging task, you can easily get into flow, and then its even difficult to stop, especially when its something that is beneficial for society. time just slides by, and in the evening you know its been a good day.

[vention4wh]

About pain. I've never noticed that pain decreases if you curse. It doesn't seem to help at all. As a mechanic I get hurt a lot. If you get hurt enough, you get board with pain. These days when I hurt myself I just sigh and keep working, or wash out the cut and apply a bandaid.

I only curse when I do something really bad, like when I bumped my head & pulled away from the pain only to bump my head again on the other side. I really smacked my head hard 4 times really fast once. I cursed that time!

[kurtilein3]

unfortunately i dont have a link, but a study has been done where people have been asked to put one of their hands in freezing water, a water/icecube mixture, for as long as they can. the members of one group were asked to choose 1 curse word in advance, and then they were allowed to repeat it as often as they want during the experiment, but they were not allowed to say anything else. the other group was asked to choose a neutral word. the cursing group lasted much longer.

[vention4wh]

kurtilein3

Woa! Interesting. If you do find the link I'd like to see it.

[kurtilein3]

damn, it was difficult to find it. apparently the study has been done in england, but while german media reported a lot about it english science blogs didnt talk about it that much. and it took me a while to realize that maybe i got it from a german source and need to search for german key words first.

"Why the #$%! Do We Swear? For Pain Relief" is the title of a scientific american article about the topic.

[vention4wh]

HA! YESSS!!! I like the way you think. You have a great talent for cutting through the bullshit.

[kurtilein3]

thanks :)

[xy11xy]

You don't have to STAY positive...just be positive 50% + 1 of the time!

[bjarczyk]

great post.

the future is bright.

[Airave]

Rational Thinking pwns Positive Thinking.

Although, we are like the Weather, like it or not,

and the rest of Nature. At times Extreme

and Unpredictable. Hopefully, always adapting.

[wtfapi]

try to stay positive kurt :)

[kurtilein3]

im happy most of the time, so i dont see a reason to waste any amount of my mental capacity on something like trying to stay positive. for me, this would seem to be as pointless as prayer. i would rather spend that time working on something useful, or communicating with people, or learning, or reading/watching stuff on the internet. when it comes to humanity and the world at large, im actually optimistic, and there are plenty of reasons to be optimistic about the (very) large picture.

[wtfapi]

"waste any amount of my mental capacity on something like trying to stay positive" Okay if you feel it's using your mental capacity then don't stay positive :) " i would rather spend that time..." In my opinion you don't need to spend any time to stay positive..

[CliffKFF]

"staying positive" conflicts with rationality? bullshit. The only rational thing a person can do is stay positive.

[kurtilein3]

sometimes you need to be against something.

if someone tramples on your rights and other peoples rights, this of course involves negative emotion. when you want to stay positive, the only option you have would be to get away from the person. if you want to organize a protest against it to generate media attention and stop the bully, you have no other option than to continue dealing with the "negativity", if you want to confront it. sometimes being angry is a good thing, even necessary.

[CliffKFF]

organizing a protest against something you perceive as negative is a very positive act, and a very rational one, so thank you for proving my point

[silverfoxcondor46]

Good video, I agree.

Take life the way it is, don't let pop psychology interfere.

[metalorg]

Positive thinking might not be able to heal disease and cure cancer but it might help like a placebo to psychologically deal with certain symptoms.

[kurtilein3]

that puts it on one level with homeopathy at best, and puts it on one level with christian fundamentalist phenomenons like faith healing and prosperity gospel at worst.

the placebo effect is known and works, but using it comes at a price: lies and deception are needed to make it work.

[metalorg]

Barbara Ehrenreich did say "I never think delusion is okay." when John Stewart made a similar comment.

[nosp4rrow]

Constant, maniacal optimism is nothing short of pathological. It takes just as much delusion as always focusing on the negative - only without the ability to identify and solve life's problems. I agree with you, "positive thinking is paralyzing," it's another way to hide from discomfort and hold an invisible force accountable for what happens in the world. What better way to detriment society than to refuse to acknowledge how it can improve? Thanks for making me feel sane, if only briefly ;-)

[bcosten2007]

kurtilein - loved the vid. especially the parts about anger. keep 'em coming. your vids are most always intellectually stimulating ;)

btw - the end of the vid past 7:30 didn't work for me - not sure if its my connection or a problem with the vid.

[kurtilein3]

it works for me, although i noticed that there might be some moments in the video where something is wrong with the data.

if you cannot watch the last part on youtube, you can use the website "keepvid" to download the mp4 file and then watch it from your harddrive, this should work for sure. i use this method sometimes when buggy advertisement prevents me from watching a youtube video by slowing down the flash player.

[Lihinel]

So lets sum it up:

When live gives you lemons...

Make lemonade.

Not.

Nobody said a word about life giving you sugar.

Have fun with your lemon juice.

Life sucks, try satire.

[Kargoneth]

Pessimism and skepticism is my game. I am thus pleasantly surprised whenever good things happen and am relatively emotionally unaffected by the bad things.

Putting on a false facade is a great way to increase your mental stress (think of having to always smile while serving customers... even when you want to show anger...).

New age medicine is quackery.

[kurtilein3]

actually there are plenty of reasons to be optimistic after all.

- average human lifespan is increasing on a global level

- rates of violent crimes, wars, and child abuse are decreasing on a global level

- literacy rate is increasing on a global level

with all the stuff that goes wrong all around us, its easy to miss that actually we are doing some things right inbetween the desasters.

for example: watch?v=ramBFRt1Uzk steven pinker talking about the history of violence.

[Kargoneth]

Thanks for the link! 8D I love TED!

Perhaps my pessimism comes primarily from newspapers... I can't open a newspaper without having it filled with dozens of stories about people being murdered, which skews my perspective.

[Kargoneth]

What the heck... my first comment disappeared (the one you replied to). Did you delete it? Or is YouTube tripping out?

[kurtilein3]

youtube...

does it show up if you click the "view all XY comments" button, near the bottom of the page?

i only delete comments after the authors deleted them themselves, or if its shameless advertisement for a commercial product or website. i didnt delete anything on this vid.

[Kargoneth]

It's back again. I think YouTube was acting up. Thanks for the reply :)