Usually you guys who bash A.A. weren't willing to go to any length to recover. Someone probably told you the truth and you didn't like it.Grow up and quit blaming something that has been around longer than your time on earth.NO ONE MAKES ANY ONE DO ANYTHING LET ALONE COOK. Quit your crying and man up to your own mistakes. Don't blame something Ive seen help so many. If your involved in gossip thatz your fault. A.A. is not a haven for angels, it's people who are looking for help.
@ben42day Oh I am a man and will stick to my statement . If belonging to a christian cult keeps you sober keep going back. I live in Thailand now and help Thai alcoholics with monks here . AA is chocked full of sex predators,freeloaders, and people that would far better off seeing a psychiatrist. Helping other alcoholics is the answer not a bunch of mumbo jumbo in a book . Taking people in need to monastary where the philosophy of yin and yang . You either drink or you dont .
When they mean service it is like the master speaking to slaves . When I grew tired of cooking and driving people around , It seemed as if I was of no use to them . Making coffee for a bunch of windbag oldtimers . If you want to be involved in a rumor mill or sleep with some guy's wife don't bother with AA just join the volunteer fire dept. It was helped at first but in the back of my mind I wondered if some oldtimers ever took a drink in their life , just loving to hear themselves talk.
@jeffrey19621 i had played around with a.a. for over 30 years drinking myself to death and shooting dope on top of it and the whole while saying how full of crap a.a. was. i getting that feeling from you. Don't blame others cause you werent ready. You know there's a special place in karmaville for you people who bash something that there only intentions are to help someone get sober. There's all kinds in a.a. like you everyone isn't there for the same reason. Be a man....take blame
Somebody told me there is a meeting of Douchebags Anonymous in my town. They told me the name of the building and the time it was on at. I turned up at the appointed time and place but it was a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous, not DA!! Although I did spot a few douchebags there...... And they were all worshiping some total douche named Willy Wilson or something....I have yet to figure out what was going on....
I just had 5 years yesterday and I don't understand this video. Are they claiming that the steps don't get you anywhere? I have never had it so good and I owe it to AA, without AA I would be dead and have nothing, AA is the reason I am alive and it has gotten me everything. Without the steps I would have gone back out and I would have nothing.
Why do so many people seem to blame AA for their own trouble? I do not get it? It's not a malevolent organisation because if you do go to a meeting which does cause you anguish why the hell are you going? Go elsewhere but stop trying to ruin if for those of us, few perhaps who have got better from using AA. I use it for my own goog and have no desire to spread messages, get converts, in fact, I like being left alone.
Do you intend to mean, "Where now?". If that is so... the park has a quietness but the overhead areoplane...is that what you want, or would you prefer the quiet natural feel of nature. In your video, I would prefer the calmness of nature so make steps to find it. I live in London, England, but only for work. I got a boat, fitted it out and move in a thin corridor of green natural surroundings. Thats one of the things I did next. I started to live the way I always wanted to. Lots to do though
If he followed the Steps properly he would he able to take what life presented him, and go on with life. Instead he stopped and wanted it handed to him, just like an alcoholics nature.
@dix345 The alcoholic nature, ie those prone to addictive type behaviours, is utter self-obsession and extreme selfishness. This has various effects, such as subjectivity and inability to see another's opinion as being equally valid, sureness of one's own world-view, etc. You can guess that to change is therefore very difficult and can only be achieved by the breaking of this self-obsessive spell. Nothing new here, Benedict, Buddhist monks, et al all realise this need to break subjectivity
You just summed up the alcoholic personality in less than 500 characters - what Kohut, Rodgers, etc called "narcissistic disturbance" or "pathological "narcissism".
Interestingly, the folk wisdom of the 12 step paradigm came to a similar understanding, but called it "self obsession" instead...
@AAFellowship Agreed. This is a catch 22 in that we only realise how innaccurate our subjective thinking is, regardless of it's intellectual prowess, when we have gone through the psychic change that the steps allows us to be open enough to receive. We just have to use our pain to admit there may be a better way and do as we are told without question. It is then that the answer comes
All great leaders, when they couldn't see the forest for the trees, all did the same thing. They moved to higher ground, so they could see further. Court ordered AA attendees stand scant chance of success, unless they truely want it for themselves. Our problems are of our own making. You make your bed, you sleep in it. Your pride and ego are the only things keeping you from being open to sobriety and for that I feel sorry for you. Namaste
dix, you want pity? Watch the 10 min you tube video: What you didn't know about the war. PS: you missed a word. Alcoholics don't need pity, that keeps them sick. They need to swallow some large chunks of truth about themselves and their condition. Peace. Watch the vid Gotta go now, service to do : )
F*** THAT,i'd still report him,..rape is rape,being 16 is being 16..,you should get him arrested.For it's ok writing here,what we write ect..coz its a debate,but report him. He will still be doing it,to vunerable,new comers. REPORT !
That's the problem. Just a suggestion ... go back to AA and do the steps one at a time. Get into a structured Big Book study group and do the homework. Then of course, you DO have to have hit bottom and be willing to do whatever it take's to stay sober ... one day at a time.
Oh, and if it is a cult, why where Bill and Bob God fearing men and the steps are designed to have a spiritual awakening.
ladybug..,lIGHTEN UP, like bill w's l.d.d trip,you are addicted to yourself,meetings,the big book,and not laughing ! try a week without a.a , you might even :)
@honestlyopen You are definately either going to too many meetings, the wrong one's or you need an attitude change. Maybe you have not suffered enougn yet?
@Hammersley1967 You are totally illogical. He could well be a drunk and still the program could be very effective. They are not connected facts. Besides, what is wrong with using a Ouija board?Or wanting whiskey when he was about to die. He said that there was no real cure, and obviously it couldn't hurt him on his death bed. That seems like it proves his point.
@ladybug1951 If Ignorance is bliss, there must be a lot of happy people in the world. If you are not aware of your sin, you do not sin. Therefore if you want to cut down crime they should cut down on the laws. I agree with you totally, but Bill and Bob were not saints, nor were they any better than you or me. I am grateful for the pain they had only because they started AA and it's only AA that has kept me sober.
The ground is active alcoholism, the steps, group think coercion, and other concrete activities of AA can break the cycle of alcohol addiction. However, once the "alcoholic" has been liberated from the alcohol addiction, they are left trapped in the prison of ignorance and dialogue of powerlessness. One can use AA to get sober, but it definitely has a "use by date" and point at which one needs to graduate from the program and fellowship.
best ive read. I have left, not one fellow contacted me after 9 weeks, over 300 phone numbers I had, thanks hammer..,I have only recently got a p.c , you have helped me, thank you.
(1) No, you see I was raped by my sponsor during my fifth step. He told me that he was "only human" and that he "didn't see any angel wings on me either". He said that it was imperative to my recovery that I keep the "event" secret because to tell anyone else would be a breach of the sanctity and confidentiality of our sponsor/sponsee relationship. Furthermore, he said that if I did tell anyone about it, then he would have no choice but to turn my 4th step notes over to the police.
(2) My fourth step had some serious criminal offences in it. The most serious of which was trespassing on federal land and theft of confectionary on the same night back in the 1980's when I was 16.
chocolate trespassing lad you may not be forgiven by Lord Jesus Christ. taking a load from your sponsor is an honor however, they may equal out, let me ask
That's what he said. And then he passed me on to his sponsor. Gettin' done by the Grandaddy sponsor left me even sorer than the first time. However, they both assured me that "no pain, no gain"...
@Hammersley1967 Is there any "rule" saying that we have to stay in AA after we get sober? For me, I go now and again to meet up with friends and be someone that a new person can look at and say, "he was as bad as me, but is now sober". Whats wrong with that? All the rest about sponsors and pseudospirituality is fluffy padding but no need to indulge. You seem to need a crutch because you are in need of answers. the fact that AA "failed you" is more a sign of your need.
It simply doesn't deliver what it PROMISES to deliver...
(Have you ever read the "12 promises"?)
I'm clean and sober 15 years now... Never been happier or healthier...
Whereas my former "colleagues" in AA/NA are still floundering, relapsing and committing suicide...
I have no need of an outside paradigm... But don't I have the right (y'know? freedom of speech?) to raise a voice of criticism at a potentially damaging social movement?
@Hammersley1967 I said "failed you" the inverted commas means not that it never failed me. Goodness me, talk about subjectivity. Anyhow, you are not getting at all my angle, but I ma happy for you to be free of the pain issociated with disfunctional drinking. I know a few unhappy people in AA too, but I do know an awful lot more happy ones. Nevertheless I don't need the success or failure of AA, Steps, God Squad, etc, to lean on
"I don't need the success or failure of AA, Steps, God Squad, etc, to lean on"
Neither do I... And I would extent that premise out to ALL past, present and future AA/NA members.
This is why I critique AA.
I think it breeds dependency, when the objective of liberating oneself from addiction/alcoholism is to transcend dependency on anything outside one's self.
I don't believe that the 12 step program and fellowship facilitate self actualisation, autonomy, and independence...
@Hammersley1967 I agree completely....to a point that is. When we transcend dependency there can be a tangible experience synonymous with the spiritual, but lets not bother with titles, they serve only to confuse. What concerns me in myself is that on what do I test my ideas? On what do we test our ideas is we are totally self dependent? Neitsche being an example of someone who faced up to life in the terms I perceive you are getting at
@maddogmargetts but he ended insane. There has been many misguided sincere people who are convinced of their rightness. With complete self-dependence where do we go for advise? Socrates taught us how to inquire into what we really mean and we are startled at how little we know of our real motives. If we only go to our own we will obviously be vindicated. This is not just an AA problem, it is a human one.
True, Nietzsche was the only existentialist to truly "stare" the utter meaningless of the abyss in the eye. It is arguable whether it was his migraines or his utterly nihilistic philosophy that drove him insane. When I was an undergrad, I remember a senior lecturer warning his first year students to put off reading Nietzsche until they had a good couple of years of existentialist philosophy under there belts. Inevitably, a few read it and some of them went a bit funny.
But, as always, Nietzsches stare into the void, no matter how high the concepts of his philosophy were, was still bound to the world of ideas. As Siddhartha said, ultimate spirituality is to transcend the delusional world of ideas (and in particular the biggest delusional idea THE SELF) and see things as they really are. AA doctrine (like all other doctrines - spiritual or not) IS a doctrine of IDEAS and therefore has its limits...
Like any other doctrine that becomes intertwined with the self, doctrine followers can become enslaved to the doctrine practicing, defending and worshipping it for no other reason than for its own sake. This is the endpoint of indoctrination taken to the extreme. And sadly, I have seen many AA devotees go down this path. AA fundamentalism...
@Hammersley1967 Yes I too see an awful lot of this fundamentalism. Usually indicated with the way folk talk in phrases and slogans instead of from themselves. I therefore keep my mind at an arms length in some ways, but the discipline, as opposed to the doctrine is useful for me to remain sober. I think this seems inevitable. When Buddha was off to nirvana
@Hammersley1967 ...cont his followers asked for a sign and in exasperation thinking they hadn't listening to a blind word he had said, Buddha saw a bowl and stick lying around, so when pressed he upturned the bowl and put the stick on top. There you are, and legged it. All over the Buddhist world there are representations of this "symbol"
@Hammersley1967 ...cont but it was just a joke. The same is true with some AA's. They get the psychic change, if lucky, then proceed to enslave people with their own interpretation of it. What a shame but that doesn't stop the rest of us getting on with living a happy-ish life.
@Hammersley1967 ..the question remains though, because if I need to know how to stop drinking, lack the wherewithall in myself due to, as you mention pathological narcissism, what can I do? Assuming that I have already looked inside myself until I am blue in the face and no matter how much knowledge, profound or otherwise, I collect, still open that bottle of paint thinners (my term for Chekov vodka) at 7am and poison myself?
I have a friend who recently submitted his PhD dissertation entitled "Theravada Treatment and Psychotherapy: An Ecological Integration of Buddhist Tripartite Practice and Western Rational Analysis".
He argues that the problem with western psychotherapy (eg CBT, Narrative Therapy, etc) is that it builds "self". He argues that it is only by mindfulness that one can dissolve the "self". Perhaps 12 step is a means of reaching for a "preferred self" (or ideal self)...
@Hammersley1967 Yes, that puts the finger on it, not just CBT, etc, I would argue that all western culture is about self. When plastic hippies go to the east to find themselves through eastern traditions, thats all they find-themselves-because they go with self motivated world views and only see what they expect. They lack discipline and miss the whole point. It must be admitted that there is
@Hammersley1967 ..cont.. little hope in expecting AA to be any better than further "self"-obsession and the quest for "self-"enlitenment. I must consider this further but in the meantime, maybe there is some good in just being sober infront of desperate drunken people, if only to say I was drunk and desperate but now I am not, for 7 years only, but that's 6 and 364 days more than I could do before. If only to think of others instead of my "self"
@Hammersley1967 ...I would be interested in reading this. Maybe an interesting way to transcend the problem of "self" or even side step it. Is the work available online anywhere?
Well said. That is a great video. One person in an AA meeting actually said: "I pray to God that I never think that I have control over my life". I haven't been back since. I do not drink now and I know I have control over my choices. AA is a cult for sure.
Usually you guys who bash A.A. weren't willing to go to any length to recover. Someone probably told you the truth and you didn't like it.Grow up and quit blaming something that has been around longer than your time on earth.NO ONE MAKES ANY ONE DO ANYTHING LET ALONE COOK. Quit your crying and man up to your own mistakes. Don't blame something Ive seen help so many. If your involved in gossip thatz your fault. A.A. is not a haven for angels, it's people who are looking for help.
ben42day 4 months ago
@ben42day Oh I am a man and will stick to my statement . If belonging to a christian cult keeps you sober keep going back. I live in Thailand now and help Thai alcoholics with monks here . AA is chocked full of sex predators,freeloaders, and people that would far better off seeing a psychiatrist. Helping other alcoholics is the answer not a bunch of mumbo jumbo in a book . Taking people in need to monastary where the philosophy of yin and yang . You either drink or you dont .
jeffrey19621 4 months ago
When they mean service it is like the master speaking to slaves . When I grew tired of cooking and driving people around , It seemed as if I was of no use to them . Making coffee for a bunch of windbag oldtimers . If you want to be involved in a rumor mill or sleep with some guy's wife don't bother with AA just join the volunteer fire dept. It was helped at first but in the back of my mind I wondered if some oldtimers ever took a drink in their life , just loving to hear themselves talk.
jeffrey19621 6 months ago
@jeffrey19621 i had played around with a.a. for over 30 years drinking myself to death and shooting dope on top of it and the whole while saying how full of crap a.a. was. i getting that feeling from you. Don't blame others cause you werent ready. You know there's a special place in karmaville for you people who bash something that there only intentions are to help someone get sober. There's all kinds in a.a. like you everyone isn't there for the same reason. Be a man....take blame
ben42day 4 months ago
Somebody told me there is a meeting of Douchebags Anonymous in my town. They told me the name of the building and the time it was on at. I turned up at the appointed time and place but it was a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous, not DA!! Although I did spot a few douchebags there...... And they were all worshiping some total douche named Willy Wilson or something....I have yet to figure out what was going on....
tommurphy67 9 months ago
You need to take ACTION on SERVICE and UNITY.....:)
Gorilon44 10 months ago
I just had 5 years yesterday and I don't understand this video. Are they claiming that the steps don't get you anywhere? I have never had it so good and I owe it to AA, without AA I would be dead and have nothing, AA is the reason I am alive and it has gotten me everything. Without the steps I would have gone back out and I would have nothing.
theyalllied 10 months ago
Eat healthy and exsersize too yaknow
moshestern1 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
THE CLAMOR OF DESIRES AND AMBITIONS WITHIN YOU MUST BE HEARED!
best video i've seen .....r ya rockin on! trust so!
DEXTERRITORY 1 year ago
THE CLAMOR OF DESIRES AND AMBITIONS WITHIN YOU MUST BE HEARED!
best video i've seen .....r ya rockin on!
DEXTERRITORY 1 year ago
HAHAAHAHAHAHAH
MegaMrgoodtime 1 year ago
Why do so many people seem to blame AA for their own trouble? I do not get it? It's not a malevolent organisation because if you do go to a meeting which does cause you anguish why the hell are you going? Go elsewhere but stop trying to ruin if for those of us, few perhaps who have got better from using AA. I use it for my own goog and have no desire to spread messages, get converts, in fact, I like being left alone.
maddogmargetts 1 year ago
Do you intend to mean, "Where now?". If that is so... the park has a quietness but the overhead areoplane...is that what you want, or would you prefer the quiet natural feel of nature. In your video, I would prefer the calmness of nature so make steps to find it. I live in London, England, but only for work. I got a boat, fitted it out and move in a thin corridor of green natural surroundings. Thats one of the things I did next. I started to live the way I always wanted to. Lots to do though
maddogmargetts1 1 year ago
PRETTY STUPID
thank you
dannyrose55 1 year ago
If he followed the Steps properly he would he able to take what life presented him, and go on with life. Instead he stopped and wanted it handed to him, just like an alcoholics nature.
Great Lesson.
Thank you.
But nobody is a Saint.
AAFellowship 2 years ago
do you want to tell us, genius, what an 'alcoholic nature' is,
dix345 2 years ago
@dix345 The alcoholic nature, ie those prone to addictive type behaviours, is utter self-obsession and extreme selfishness. This has various effects, such as subjectivity and inability to see another's opinion as being equally valid, sureness of one's own world-view, etc. You can guess that to change is therefore very difficult and can only be achieved by the breaking of this self-obsessive spell. Nothing new here, Benedict, Buddhist monks, et al all realise this need to break subjectivity
maddogmargetts 1 year ago
Comment removed
Hammersley1967 1 year ago
@maddogmargetts
You just summed up the alcoholic personality in less than 500 characters - what Kohut, Rodgers, etc called "narcissistic disturbance" or "pathological "narcissism".
Interestingly, the folk wisdom of the 12 step paradigm came to a similar understanding, but called it "self obsession" instead...
Hammersley1967 1 year ago
@AAFellowship He'll have acceptance on the steps and die of starvation! Better yet, he can just balk altogether and go back the steps and escape!
pgamonkey 2 years ago
@AAFellowship Agreed. This is a catch 22 in that we only realise how innaccurate our subjective thinking is, regardless of it's intellectual prowess, when we have gone through the psychic change that the steps allows us to be open enough to receive. We just have to use our pain to admit there may be a better way and do as we are told without question. It is then that the answer comes
maddogmargetts 1 year ago
I can see he's balking on step 9 ;)
HecterPlasmic 2 years ago
Did you know that you tube has a video series called:
The World According to Monsanto
&
Let's Get Empirical - A Talk by Dr. David Ray Griffin
< Well worth watching, 5 stars
mskydolphin 2 years ago
He almost made it to hear,
Let's Get Empirical - A Talk by Dr. David Ray Griffin
mskydolphin 2 years ago
mskydolphin 2 years ago
I doubt that you are capable of pity. If you were, you would have written that drivel
dix345 2 years ago
mskydolphin 2 years ago
pretty lame uninspiring video
juleseypoo 3 years ago
F*** THAT,i'd still report him,..rape is rape,being 16 is being 16..,you should get him arrested.For it's ok writing here,what we write ect..coz its a debate,but report him. He will still be doing it,to vunerable,new comers. REPORT !
honestlyopen 3 years ago
well done...absurd...did you decide the #12 before you started?
nuhsehso 3 years ago
no i counted and walked at once
annacgray 3 years ago
That's the problem. Just a suggestion ... go back to AA and do the steps one at a time. Get into a structured Big Book study group and do the homework. Then of course, you DO have to have hit bottom and be willing to do whatever it take's to stay sober ... one day at a time.
Oh, and if it is a cult, why where Bill and Bob God fearing men and the steps are designed to have a spiritual awakening.
They say ignorance is bliss.
ladybug1951 3 years ago
ladybug..,lIGHTEN UP, like bill w's l.d.d trip,you are addicted to yourself,meetings,the big book,and not laughing ! try a week without a.a , you might even :)
honestlyopen 3 years ago
@honestlyopen You are definately either going to too many meetings, the wrong one's or you need an attitude change. Maybe you have not suffered enougn yet?
maddogmargetts 1 year ago
lsd ! I meant. ;)
honestlyopen 3 years ago
If the sacred steps are SO perfect and William Griffith Wilson was SUCH a dedicated and "god fearing man", then why did he:
1) Take LSD with Betty Eisner, Gerald Heard , and Aldous Huxley?
2) Serially philander and 13th step (behind Lois' back)?
3) Smoke cigarettes until he drew his terminal breath -- even when he was on oxygen?
4) Use Ouija boards to commune with the dead?
5) Demand whisky on his death bed?
6) Want to profoundly change the steps in 1951?
Hammersley1967 3 years ago
mid life crisis.
AAWSGSO 3 years ago
@Hammersley1967 What is a 13th step?
maddogmargetts1 1 year ago
@maddogmargetts1
RAPE!!!
Hammersley1967 1 year ago
@Hammersley1967 You are totally illogical. He could well be a drunk and still the program could be very effective. They are not connected facts. Besides, what is wrong with using a Ouija board?Or wanting whiskey when he was about to die. He said that there was no real cure, and obviously it couldn't hurt him on his death bed. That seems like it proves his point.
lollipopfop 1 year ago
@lollipopfop
"They are not connected facts."
No?
Smoking cigarettes until your draw your terminal breath in an iron lung?
Have compulsive sex with more women than you or I care to think about whilst still married?
Demanding whiskey on his death bed after 37 years of "sobriety"?
Taking 30 - 35 doses (in 2 years) of the most powerful hallucinogen know to man?
And you think these fact's "aren't connected"?
Ummm... Do you not get the picture that Bill didn't have the answer to addiction?
Hammersley1967 1 year ago
@ladybug1951 If Ignorance is bliss, there must be a lot of happy people in the world. If you are not aware of your sin, you do not sin. Therefore if you want to cut down crime they should cut down on the laws. I agree with you totally, but Bill and Bob were not saints, nor were they any better than you or me. I am grateful for the pain they had only because they started AA and it's only AA that has kept me sober.
maddogmargetts 1 year ago
I interpret this video as follows:
The ground is active alcoholism, the steps, group think coercion, and other concrete activities of AA can break the cycle of alcohol addiction. However, once the "alcoholic" has been liberated from the alcohol addiction, they are left trapped in the prison of ignorance and dialogue of powerlessness. One can use AA to get sober, but it definitely has a "use by date" and point at which one needs to graduate from the program and fellowship.
Hammersley1967 3 years ago
best ive read. I have left, not one fellow contacted me after 9 weeks, over 300 phone numbers I had, thanks hammer..,I have only recently got a p.c , you have helped me, thank you.
honestlyopen 3 years ago
:-)
Hammersley1967 3 years ago
Hammer,It was hard leaving,for I was alone..,did you feel alone at first? I have real freinds now, 3, over 300 fellows..thankyou for your words. :)
honestlyopen 3 years ago
(1) No, you see I was raped by my sponsor during my fifth step. He told me that he was "only human" and that he "didn't see any angel wings on me either". He said that it was imperative to my recovery that I keep the "event" secret because to tell anyone else would be a breach of the sanctity and confidentiality of our sponsor/sponsee relationship. Furthermore, he said that if I did tell anyone about it, then he would have no choice but to turn my 4th step notes over to the police.
Hammersley1967 3 years ago
(2) My fourth step had some serious criminal offences in it. The most serious of which was trespassing on federal land and theft of confectionary on the same night back in the 1980's when I was 16.
Hammersley1967 3 years ago
chocolate trespassing lad you may not be forgiven by Lord Jesus Christ. taking a load from your sponsor is an honor however, they may equal out, let me ask
AAWSGSO 3 years ago
That's what he said. And then he passed me on to his sponsor. Gettin' done by the Grandaddy sponsor left me even sorer than the first time. However, they both assured me that "no pain, no gain"...
Hammersley1967 3 years ago
Cops would not give a fuck about that. Turn the bastard in.
ramdillian 3 years ago
dont believe a word this guy says. He has attacked me under a different username and he spill lies about that too google his username
Godlyguitarman 2 years ago
Mamma?
Hammersley1967 2 years ago
@Hammersley1967 Is there any "rule" saying that we have to stay in AA after we get sober? For me, I go now and again to meet up with friends and be someone that a new person can look at and say, "he was as bad as me, but is now sober". Whats wrong with that? All the rest about sponsors and pseudospirituality is fluffy padding but no need to indulge. You seem to need a crutch because you are in need of answers. the fact that AA "failed you" is more a sign of your need.
maddogmargetts1 1 year ago
@maddogmargetts1
AA never "failed me" - silly person...
It simply doesn't deliver what it PROMISES to deliver...
(Have you ever read the "12 promises"?)
I'm clean and sober 15 years now... Never been happier or healthier...
Whereas my former "colleagues" in AA/NA are still floundering, relapsing and committing suicide...
I have no need of an outside paradigm... But don't I have the right (y'know? freedom of speech?) to raise a voice of criticism at a potentially damaging social movement?
Hammersley1967 1 year ago
@Hammersley1967 I said "failed you" the inverted commas means not that it never failed me. Goodness me, talk about subjectivity. Anyhow, you are not getting at all my angle, but I ma happy for you to be free of the pain issociated with disfunctional drinking. I know a few unhappy people in AA too, but I do know an awful lot more happy ones. Nevertheless I don't need the success or failure of AA, Steps, God Squad, etc, to lean on
maddogmargetts 1 year ago
@maddogmargetts
"I don't need the success or failure of AA, Steps, God Squad, etc, to lean on"
Neither do I... And I would extent that premise out to ALL past, present and future AA/NA members.
This is why I critique AA.
I think it breeds dependency, when the objective of liberating oneself from addiction/alcoholism is to transcend dependency on anything outside one's self.
I don't believe that the 12 step program and fellowship facilitate self actualisation, autonomy, and independence...
Hammersley1967 1 year ago
@Hammersley1967 I agree completely....to a point that is. When we transcend dependency there can be a tangible experience synonymous with the spiritual, but lets not bother with titles, they serve only to confuse. What concerns me in myself is that on what do I test my ideas? On what do we test our ideas is we are totally self dependent? Neitsche being an example of someone who faced up to life in the terms I perceive you are getting at
maddogmargetts 1 year ago
@maddogmargetts but he ended insane. There has been many misguided sincere people who are convinced of their rightness. With complete self-dependence where do we go for advise? Socrates taught us how to inquire into what we really mean and we are startled at how little we know of our real motives. If we only go to our own we will obviously be vindicated. This is not just an AA problem, it is a human one.
maddogmargetts 1 year ago
@maddogmargetts
[1]
True, Nietzsche was the only existentialist to truly "stare" the utter meaningless of the abyss in the eye. It is arguable whether it was his migraines or his utterly nihilistic philosophy that drove him insane. When I was an undergrad, I remember a senior lecturer warning his first year students to put off reading Nietzsche until they had a good couple of years of existentialist philosophy under there belts. Inevitably, a few read it and some of them went a bit funny.
Hammersley1967 1 year ago
@maddogmargetts
[2]
But, as always, Nietzsches stare into the void, no matter how high the concepts of his philosophy were, was still bound to the world of ideas. As Siddhartha said, ultimate spirituality is to transcend the delusional world of ideas (and in particular the biggest delusional idea THE SELF) and see things as they really are. AA doctrine (like all other doctrines - spiritual or not) IS a doctrine of IDEAS and therefore has its limits...
Hammersley1967 1 year ago
@maddogmargetts
[3]
Like any other doctrine that becomes intertwined with the self, doctrine followers can become enslaved to the doctrine practicing, defending and worshipping it for no other reason than for its own sake. This is the endpoint of indoctrination taken to the extreme. And sadly, I have seen many AA devotees go down this path. AA fundamentalism...
Hammersley1967 1 year ago
@Hammersley1967 Yes I too see an awful lot of this fundamentalism. Usually indicated with the way folk talk in phrases and slogans instead of from themselves. I therefore keep my mind at an arms length in some ways, but the discipline, as opposed to the doctrine is useful for me to remain sober. I think this seems inevitable. When Buddha was off to nirvana
maddogmargetts 1 year ago
@Hammersley1967 ...cont his followers asked for a sign and in exasperation thinking they hadn't listening to a blind word he had said, Buddha saw a bowl and stick lying around, so when pressed he upturned the bowl and put the stick on top. There you are, and legged it. All over the Buddhist world there are representations of this "symbol"
maddogmargetts 1 year ago
@Hammersley1967 ...cont but it was just a joke. The same is true with some AA's. They get the psychic change, if lucky, then proceed to enslave people with their own interpretation of it. What a shame but that doesn't stop the rest of us getting on with living a happy-ish life.
maddogmargetts 1 year ago
@maddogmargetts
GREAT COMMENT!!!
This has turned into a good blog...
Hammersley1967 1 year ago
@Hammersley1967 ..the question remains though, because if I need to know how to stop drinking, lack the wherewithall in myself due to, as you mention pathological narcissism, what can I do? Assuming that I have already looked inside myself until I am blue in the face and no matter how much knowledge, profound or otherwise, I collect, still open that bottle of paint thinners (my term for Chekov vodka) at 7am and poison myself?
maddogmargetts 1 year ago
@maddogmargetts
I have a friend who recently submitted his PhD dissertation entitled "Theravada Treatment and Psychotherapy: An Ecological Integration of Buddhist Tripartite Practice and Western Rational Analysis".
He argues that the problem with western psychotherapy (eg CBT, Narrative Therapy, etc) is that it builds "self". He argues that it is only by mindfulness that one can dissolve the "self". Perhaps 12 step is a means of reaching for a "preferred self" (or ideal self)...
Hammersley1967 1 year ago
@Hammersley1967 Yes, that puts the finger on it, not just CBT, etc, I would argue that all western culture is about self. When plastic hippies go to the east to find themselves through eastern traditions, thats all they find-themselves-because they go with self motivated world views and only see what they expect. They lack discipline and miss the whole point. It must be admitted that there is
maddogmargetts 1 year ago
@Hammersley1967 ..cont.. little hope in expecting AA to be any better than further "self"-obsession and the quest for "self-"enlitenment. I must consider this further but in the meantime, maybe there is some good in just being sober infront of desperate drunken people, if only to say I was drunk and desperate but now I am not, for 7 years only, but that's 6 and 364 days more than I could do before. If only to think of others instead of my "self"
maddogmargetts 1 year ago
@Hammersley1967 You need less acid in your life.
lollipopfop 1 year ago
Comment removed
Hammersley1967 1 year ago
@lollipopfop
And you need less AA and more education in your life...
Hammersley1967 1 year ago
@Hammersley1967 ...I would be interested in reading this. Maybe an interesting way to transcend the problem of "self" or even side step it. Is the work available online anywhere?
maddogmargetts 1 year ago
@maddogmargetts
Yes, the entire thesis exists online as a PDF document...
I will PM you the link...
Hammersley1967 1 year ago
Well said. That is a great video. One person in an AA meeting actually said: "I pray to God that I never think that I have control over my life". I haven't been back since. I do not drink now and I know I have control over my choices. AA is a cult for sure.
marathon1974 4 years ago
this is so nice. less is more and this says more about the 12 steps than more wordy pieces.
Art immatates life and this tidbit is fine art for those veterans?survivors of AA the cult of powerlessness
aakills 4 years ago
Huh??? Watcha talkin bout Willis!?!
21141712 4 years ago
word salad expert i see
AAWSGSO 3 years ago