@Tux8o The fact that incomes are not equal is actually good, so your CEOs making more than average workers thing is completely irrelevant. You simply want to have the rich hung up and executed, then slaughter innovators, if you want actual equality. However, you are actually advocating Soviet Union policies of income equality. Face it. You're a Communist. You hate the general population. Your ideals have slaughtered hundreds of millions.
@tux8o Fuck off, income inequality should exist, because when you try to eradicate it, you get dictators like Stalin, mass genocide inflicted upon political opponents, etc. Do you want the Soviet Union in America? If not, then don't say you want income equality, because you really don't.
@NuclearWizard fuck off, free and democratic society should not allow the absurdities of corporate greed that result in ceo to worker pay at 475:1 in the usa while in canada and europe the numbers are between 15:1 and 20:1 income inequality is tolerable and even desirable but not at the levels of today, i stand by my statement that income inequality is the problem, but the solution is not income equality but a balance like in Canada or Germany etc. heres the facts i referred to,
Those extreme demands couldn't possibly be posted by right-wing trolls. No sir. The right-wing would never do that. HTWW (pretentious fap) will never tell the truth he'll just cherry pick, quote out of context and mislead people. All to control people and make money for himself.
Damnit Lee, stop lumping the crazy people in with the sane ones. Your doing the exact same thing you said that the Liberal media did with the Tea Party. They find the nuttiest guy in the crowd with the most batshit ideas and film him, and then use him to point and say
"LOOK AT THE CRAZY PERSON! HE REPRESENTS ALL OF THE PROTESTORS! THEY'RE ALL LIKE THIS!!!"
With every political movement, there will be loons. I've seen them at OWS and Tea Party protests. And I think you have too.
Funny because statistically the Tea Party was higher educated than the average voter, and actually didn't have riots, arrests, rapes, theft, and overdoses that OWS had.
@Smullet90 Funny because statistically, Youtube commenters have no proof when they pull the "statistically" card.
What I find delicious about the TP is that it's made up of well off older people (also white), who believe that an education automatically equals intelligence and common sense.
The Occupiers have their right to protest like everyone else, but there is a good way to protest and bad way and well they did it the bad way. What they stand for is one thing, but it doesn't say how well thought out their message is when they practically turn a park into a disease ridden zone. They've also had so many arrests, some assault people who disagree with them, and they do very vile acts to police and in the park. I'm all for free speech, but not when it breaks laws and is this bad.
I feel like OWS has legitimate grievances, and have the right to protest as much as they want. But they don't have the right to turn someones private property into a shantytown. The police kicking you out is not a violation of your first ammendment right. Someones owns those parks. They payed for them. Its there land, and if they don't want you there you have to leave. Its not "the evil corporations silencing the voice", its basic property rights that have existed since the nations founding.
I am one of the ''left wingers'' you are refering to, I like capitalism, I just wanna do some improvements. But I hate the corporate takeover of USA's democracy.
@coyotefever105 Do you know that Christianity is correct? The world around us reveals that G-d DOES exist, and the historical evidence reveals that Jesus Christ really did come to this earth and there is overwhelming evidence that Jesus Christ really did physically rise from the dead. Jesus is coming again and the signs of the end times that were foretold in the Bible are coming to pass.
Steve Jobs was a horrible person. Fathered a daughter he didn't support, never donated to charity, stole the ideas of Steve Wozniack and then proceeded to fire him from Apple, worked his employees 120 hours a week in the early days of Apple, enforced horrendously strict company and copyright policies, and convinced the public that modifying technology that you bought and own is illegal. Also, installing back doors into every OS X operating system was a pretty great thing, too.
Okay, you lose immediately by referring to Occupy Wall Street as a radical leftist movement. If you actually took the time to listen, you'd see that a good majority of them are not in favor of democrats. They're not in favor of the political system altogether. This left-right bullshit tears conversation and intelligence down and is only for lazy people who want to pigeonhole everyone. Fuck that stupidity. Think independently.
social darwinism was created by Rockefeller and Carnegie to explain the stratification of wealth during the gilded age of industrialization, in that time unions were put down by military intervention & wages were cut in half to increase profits & widespread monopolies ,vertical&horizontal integrated business practices dominated.The lower classes DO need the government to keep the rich from taking everything for themselves , pure capitalism has just as many problems as a pure form of socialism
@ratthechicken I don't think you're making your point very well. I'm no historian, so I'm just going to use your statement, here. If you're claiming "military intervention" was used to put down unions, I would say the government was part of the problem. The one Occupy statement I know I agree with is that the influence of special interests on the government needs to be eliminated. I think the government is the problem in that exchange, though.
@lunargamer i think the government out too , im kind of a libertarian like that i say the government should be taken almost completely out of our lives ,besides the judiciary branch
@ratthechicken The idea of social Darwinism was "created" by Francis Galton, Thomas Malthus, and more specifically Herbert Spencer after origin of the species. I assume you mean it was applied to the situation by Rockefeller and Carnegie? Not to detract from you other points, to which I agree fully.
It's unfair to represent individual opinions within Occupy as typical of the whole movement. I could find individual examples from the T prty which would make you squirm. The T party has a clear agenda, set of demands + is organised . Occupy is the opposite; poorly organised with no clear agenda. It's hipster politics 4 counter-cultural rebels. You've more to fear from the likes of me, (a tie wearing Socialist,) who believes in engaging the system, not to bring it down but to make it fairer.
I guarantee you if there was 1 individual who actually gave a decent response to what their message is, you would say thats their message, even though its only 1 of them saying that.
True, the radical left is full of under-educated, overzealous, would-be reformers, but the radical right is famous for its insensitive, profit-hungry, heartless industrialists. Another user below points out that static concepts cannot be applied to a dynamic world. It seems like you would like your opponents' viewpoints to become irrelevant so you can continue hiding from this dynamism. Life isn't idealism, no matter what your stance. It'll take more than conservatism to help us out of our mess.
Three of the main reasons corporations outsource, is because the minimum wage is lower overseas, also because of high taxes, & unreasonable union demands. if the minimum wage is $20 all small business will close & all corporations will permanently move oversees. Obama supports the wall street protesters because he want Socialism as well
Problem with most conservatives. They become engulfed in politics and business and forget that the real world is dynamic. You can't apply static ideas to a dynamic world. Basic economics.
@IamaRifle i dont understand what your saying, what are you replying to, what is your point? are you dissenting, do you agree? what are you talking about?
@Tux8o I'm just saying that people who do a less important job get less of the wealth that the company makes. If you want more money, get the job that pays better.
@Tux8o If you know anything about the free market you can see that it is completely fair and just. When you add in a manipulative government, all of the benefits of the free market go away for the sake of company survival.
@IamaRifle if by fair and just you mean the corporations serve the share holders at the expense of the workers, consumers, manufacturers and environment, then yes, very fair and just.
@NoamTube im against wage slavery, im against corporatism, i think capitalism has a place, but socialism in a democratic state is great, look at sweden, norway, switzlerland
Socialism is really in the same group as communism and dictatorship. Look at China, N. Korea, former USSR, etc. Only free capitalist countries have the highest quality of life.
@NoamTube Why do Sweden, and many other other European countries have such high quality of life, even though they're socialist? In practice Communism is bad, and Socialism won't really work anymore.
@NoamTube by noam, are you refering to Noam Chomsky? to answer your point, Sweden, Denmark, Belguim, Canada, Norway, Switzerland, Finland (happier and more socialist than the USA) so i guess capitalism doesn't equate a high quality of life. what does? equality, freedom, respect for civil rights, social solidarity, and you may say that the USA is the home of the free, but i would say that only in song is the US free, because the wage slaves that make up the working class are less free than ever.
@NoamTube why does it matter if ive been to any of the countries i referred to? but as a matter of fact i have, im a Canadian and have lived in Canada my whole life.
@Tux8o No, actually it isn't. OWS is about not showering, laying about on public property because no one else wants you, and looking for handouts. Just watch some of the videos of the OWS crowd - burnouts who reek of Patchouli that cannot conjure up cogent thought.
@OhNoYouCant thats a sweeping generalization, not only that, but your wrong. OWS is about the common people having enough of the rich outsourcing their jobs, closing factories, lowering wages, laying off workers, sending jobs out of North America and serving the shareholders at the cost of the workers. BOOM! bottom line, greed fucks shit up, and thats not going to be tolerated
@Tux8o OWS is about stupid entitled nitwits who don't understand capitalism, market dynamics, or business mechanics. "Income inequality" will always exist in systems that provide upward mobility economically. Lashing out irrationally without any reasonable, workable alternatives is the height of ignorance.
@pretorious700 capitalism has turned into corporatism and i dont understand how people can defend the current system, pervasive corporations with advertising that permeates every aspect of human interaction, i cant even watch tv without half of the broadcasting being corporate interests fighting for my mind and money. any system that allows the amazing discrepancies in income seen in today's society is deeply flawed, and to fight it, protest is extremely rational.
Wall Street has been stealing from the people of the world since the days of Ronald Asshole Reagan. You are a piece of shit for being against the movement to bring them to justice. Fuck you.
again great points by our humble >howtheworldworks<, luckily on the right there is no one who wants to tear down the system, like say create a medieval christian dominion, or a war empire, or a randian egotopia, all perfectly normal, moderate people there
always remember that you can judge movements and ideas by any a few or even single individuals of its fringe representatives
what bothers me is that no one in the Republican party is taking a stand for returning America to a capitalist form of government. We have presidential candidates that are proposing to undo the damage done by socialism with more subsidies, more tariffs and state controlled socialist medical insurance. How many people in America can define capitalism,fascism, and communism. Flat tax;close the fed/state bureaucracy. ban government price controls.
You can't be against Capitalism, if you think that anyone is against that, you are deluded. Capitalism will always exist in any form of political ideology.
@Sethagrius you cant be against fascism, if you.., works just as well, the problem starts when capitalism becomes a political ideology, same as making social welfare, war, self interest aso. one, capitalism is a tool, a functional device, not more, not less
this guy doesnt realize that occupy wall street was more about corperate handouts in government and how it leads to income inequality. i dont know his history but he probably some silver spoon fresh out of grad school pinhead. grow up get a job make something of yourself other than these pompus you tube videos and then come back when your in your 40s and talk economy with us. TY
Wait the Occupy movement can not gather together against corruption and the money in politics but when the tea party says that obama is hitler and how the federal reserve is proof that government is evil THATS OK!?
Oh goodness, this is like ''Faux News'' turned up to 11.
This guy is like most Right-wing Conservatards. He has the romantic idea that anyone within a Capitalist society can succeed on merit and buy themselves a mansion and have 100 dollar bills to jerk off into.
However the current deregulated system is leading to all sorts of abuse of the economic model.
Also, the Tea Party are far fucking worse than OWS. The teabaggers hold up signs saying ''Obama's plan = White Slavery''.
STOP MAKING VIDEOS!, PLEASE STOP.... its disgusting. Your fox news in training, typical, unoriginal, borish, and oh yeah ....WRONG! You are a white middle class male... EVERYTHING you have EVER known about poverty and systems of injustice comes from some fucking book. You have no clue nor any courage to do the kind of research of knowledge that actually matters....... seeing for yourself what this movement is about-TALK to people affected by this brutal form of capitalism. Just..stop, its sad
Occupy doesn't stand for the left wing. The left wing is desperately trying to copy Occupy. I am active in Germany, most of us are heavily educated on the things we're trying to adress. Occupy isn't about Capitalism, because true Capitalism isn't the problem. It is the capitalistic system being abused by positions of power in economy and politics alike, and the perversion of wealth, being able to control everything and entire lives by nothing but money. That's something I bet you would agree on.
@MathPhysChemSkyNerd where in the world has social democracy ever condemned capitalism? its the same strawmen as pitching democracy against the republic, none of the worlds big democracies were created without constitutions, no real social democracy has ever tried to abolish capitalism
@Tool9395 Yeah it's totally OK that we have to divide other people's hard earned money to folks who have just proven that they won't work if they don't have to. What right therefore do we have to instate a non-capitalist system which truly divides the money unfairly?
@MathPhysChemSkyNerd I think you're forgetting human nature meaning some people naturally are more likely to work hard. Some people are born into families which means they don't end up with a good education, and some people are born into poverty and poverty is hard to escape. Also it's inexcusable how low taxes on the super-rich are.
One of my favorite things this year was seeing a friend post about hating the establishment and big corporations and then post about going to Walmart on Black Friday to buy a PS3. Anyone else see the irony? At least he's getting involved...
Stop laying and do you think that greed is good and about the the person who attack the Jewish gay he is a Jew. occupy are not met to attack attack the rich or jew it about stopping cooperate money from influencing policy. you right wing nut
Wow, you really don't get it. The world would be very simple if you could make sweeping generalization as you suggest. The point is the Occupy movement is broad but at heart has the same discontent (though with a different view point) as the Tea Party movement that the political system in this country is broken.
socialism commuting resources to give everyone an opportunity to be successful........unless you're completely greedy i don't see how it has to interfere with entrepreneurship .....if the markets and the feds were better regulated you'd be better at finding crooks...I don't see hows cons make it seems socialism is for the lazy the whole reason that system has worked functionally in countries like sweden and norway is if there is high employment.
@sniper1724: “The shift reflects the growth in spending for programs focused on the elderly population (such as Social Security and Medicare), in which benefits are not limited to low-income households,” the study explains. “As a result, government transfers reduced the dispersion of household income by less in 2007 than in 1979.” Sadly this is a fact that most liberals don't want to hear.
@sniper1724: Furthermore, the egregious income inequality that we face today is the deplorable result of government preventing people from entering the market. But I must note that income inequality is also the byproduct of liberal redistribution programs. A CBO study found that in 1979, households in the bottom income quintile received more than 50 percent of all transfer payments. In 2007, similar households received about 35 percent of transfers. “The shift reflects the growth in spending fo
@sniper1724: The exploitation and poverty you deplore are the results of government intervention, not free market capitalism. Without government intervention, the poor could make due with the limited faculties they possess and attempt to work their way up the income chain.
@sniper1724: To further emphasize my point, I will proceed to tell you about my aunt. She has a passion for baking and an acute talent for it. In fact, she even has an outstanding portfolio of all the beautiful cakes she has baked. Unfortunately, health department regulations and licensing fees prevent her from profiting from her talent, simply because she lacks the capital and the space to comply with the regulations.
@sniper1724: The city government also enforces a single fare structure, enforces a common paint job, and now is even forcing all city cabs to upgrade to high-cost, high-tech GPS and payment systems, whether or not the cabbie or his customer happens to want them. The point is that without these onerous regulations, a poor person with only a van could start his own business in the free market.
@sniper1724: Government regulations also hurt the average person trying to get by. Here in New York, if you want to start a transportation service, you can't unless you have purchased a "medallion," a government-created license the caps the number of taxi cabs at 13,000. Besides the cost of a medallion, cab owners are also legally required to pay an annual licensing fee of $550 and to pay for three inspections by the city government each year, at a total annual cost of $150. The city government
@sniper1724: Jobs are exported because this country is unfriendly to free market capitalism. Facing a corporate tax rate of 39.2% (the highest in the world) and onerous government-imposed regulations, job creators have realized that it is economically unprofitable to create work in this country.
occupy wall street is a bunch of left wing kids. who have nothing better to do but stand around and smoke weed. The fact is that the companies on wall street employ millions of people. They bring prosperity to impoverished nations. Just because they make a dollar off of their own hard work to start their company does not make them evil.
Steve Jobs moved most of the American jobs overseas, dude seriously how did he help the economy. He exploited the fact that you live in a capitalist country and make money at the cost of the environment and the economy. Blaming the students to sell your eBook, that's seriously low. Any company that holds back technology and releases them at a snails pace, hoping that their customers are stupid enough to buy their new product every year should be taken out of business.
This guy is way off on everything. The protesters don't want to tear down the banks they want banks to be more responsible. Obama's base is not the far left, these people can't stand him (too far to the right). It's sad that the Obama haters are so disconnected from reality. They act like he's going to reign in Stalinism, when in reality he's like a Nixon centrist. I compare him to Nixon because alot of modern Democrats are really the 70s republicans. At-least know why you dislike him
What you are saying is classic right wing propaganda. It presents capitalism as a perfect meritocracy, in reality today it is only to a limited extent. You can move up the classes but it is difficult and there are limited opportunities. So only a relatively small amount of ppl could move up, do you think it is right to blame everyone else for not?? All while everyone in the upper class stays rich and gets richer.
Just look at the reality of generation after generation of poverty.
@sniper1724 It's a meritocracy only to the extent to which it is a capitalist system, which is very little. We have a central bank cartel that pulls the strings on our economy almost without repercussion and is rewarded for failure, protectionism and various foolish restrictions on trade, a collectivist education system, and a complete lack of understanding of basic economic principles within our electorate, and yet our situation is attributed to the failings of "Capitalism". It's not capitalism
@DarklingX earn it? Are you implying that wallstreet has earned it by being parasites? Many people, in fact most people work as hard if not harder than corporate owners bankers ect. who make money with more money. Do they deserve 80+ of the wealth just because they are in business, while the majority who work as hard (to subsist) are miserable?
There needs to be an incentive to work yes but look at reality now, people can work hard for their whole lives and still be desperately poor.
How sad it is that this seemingly intelligent man does NOT want the US to become more democratic, but sees movements like "Occupy Wall Street" as a danger to the capitalist system that allows greedy bosses, like himself, to give eachother huge pay bonuses while the rest of the economy is going down the tubes. Sad, Sad, Sad.
@rektor4, a pure democracy is NOT desirable. The U.S. economic system has become "progressively" (pun intended) LESS capitalistic over most of its history... particularly over the last 50 years or so. A major problem with the "occupy Wall St." crowd is wrongfully blaming capitalism as the problem. The widespread gnorance of economics is perhaps the single most grievous problem that has led to the problems we see today.
@mariasman100 I agree, the industrial economy in the US has always been dependant on enormous subsidies from central government - it has long been a fact that a pure market based capitalist economy cannot work. But, with the growth of the financial sector and the "virtual" economy we see a frightening greed and a selfishness that is willing to do anything to earn a buck, without regard to the consequences.
@BLAST14, true... the U.S. industrial economy (in general) has depended upon subsidies since its inception, most notably through tariffs. However, the interventions into the economy executed by the federal government today is orders of magnitude greater than during the past. The growing subsidies to the financial sector has taken many forms, and it has encouraged exceedlingly wreckless behavior.
@mariasman100 It is my firm conviction that the US has never had a true democratic system in which the ordinary man has had a real say in government. The lack over worker institutions and "grass root" movements has allowed first the rich land owners, and now the big corporations to dictate government policies, and the development of the US economy to favour a small group of "elite". The propaganda which excludes all other forms of political activity as "comunist" or "anti-american" is a promlem
@BLAST14, It is my firm conviction that a "true" (i.e. pure) democratic system is not desirable. Even the "ordinary man" will rationalize a means to gain at the expense of others, particularly when the means is a glorified institution known as "government". In any system there are ruthless and depraved sociopaths who prey upon the weak. We can only hope to minimize this predation. Make no mistake, these sociopaths finally gain control over all governments ... "democratic" or not.
@mariasman100 Yes, I see your point, but isn't a democratic system with it's checks and the possibility to send legislation back for "re-thinking" the only way to control these psycopaths? The problem as I see it is that the same people have networks and power bases that restrict the flow of information that would show them for what they are. As Christopher Hitchins put it "I don't want better polititians, I want a better electorate!" People must be well informed to make good decisions.
@BLAST14, The "psycopaths" are simply taking advantage of the situation... that's what they do. In truth, most of us act as the "psycopaths" (or would if we could)... they're just better at gaming the system than the rest of us. “Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.” Bastiat
@mariasman100@blast14 Being a sociopath is an advantage in a society in which the common goal of power and profit is at heart. If you don't give a shit about other people, it's way easier to manipulate and fuck people over. Pure free market capitalism is a sociopaths paradise--it'd be mafia organizations running the non-sociopathic masses; pure democracy is perfect for a sociopath to manipulate the masses and quickly turn the country into an authoritarian regime. See: the rise of Hitler.
@treefingers1206, The U.S. is less capitalistic today than ever before in its history, and probably more democratic than ever. If anything, I expect we're more vulnerable to totalitarianism than ever for this reason (as you seem to suggest). This is more likely with the consolidation of political power. Please note that free market capitalism is diametrically opposed to authoritarianism. One thing Hitler abhorred was classical liberalism. Sociopaths will always exist. The worst possible...
@treefingers1206, by the way, profit earned in a pure free market capitalist economy indicates the creation of value. That should not be discouraged. Of course, the thoroughly corrupted money and banking system today does not allow the price system to serve as an accurate measure here. Today, those who become wealthy have often destroyed value. Most people can't seem to understand that the progressive departure from free market principles over many decades is the primary cause.
@MsSexySocialist, Protectionism does not create wealth. The intelligent allocation of scarce resources (i.e. capital) toward the goal of value creates wealth. The price system is the single most important tool. The 1920's saw an 8 year period where credit expanded by 60% while the gold stock expanded only 15%. This distorted the relative prices leading to perverse incentives and the subsequent unwise allocation of capital. A crash was inevitable. The Great Depression was then caused by.....
.... the unprecendented interventions spearheaded by the Hoover administration, itself inspired by the dominant political philosophy of the day, namely "progressivism". I challenge you to do a bit a research into Hoover's administration and his personal beliefs. The Roosevelt administration's "New Deal" was merely a continuation and expansion of Hoover's interventions. These programs prevented the necessary reallocation of capital and adjustment of relative prices. The same thing occurs today.
@MsSexySocialist, Please note that correlation is not causation. It takes time for the effects of a new paradigm to manifest. In fact, a generation or more should be expected. If you desire a thorough discussion, then send me a message through my channel.
I'm well aware. But the burden of proof is on advocates of pro-corporate neoliberal policies to provide evidence that their policies are beneficial; especially with regard to currently developing countries who are having privatization and trade liberalization enforced upon them by the "unholy trinity"; the IMF, World Bank, and WTO.
All evidence points to rich countries having become rich through nationalist . . .
The UK didn't embrace free trade till the 1860s, after it had become the most powerful nation in the world.
The US was literally the most protectionist nation in the world all through the 19th century.
Yet these rich nations are now ramming down the throats of poorer nations the same economics that would have destroyed them had they been tried in their early stages of development.
. . . liberalization in the 60s, Toyota would just be another subsidiary of GM.
"It takes time for the effects of a new paradigm to manifest"
Your economics have had over 30 years to manifest; how long is it going to take? It doesn't help the case when you look at the comparison to the preceding 30-35 years of progressive economics
"In fact, a generation or more should be expected"
This sounds like pure blind faith. Where's the evidence that it'll ever arrive?
@MsSexySocialist My statement that "a generation or more should be expected" refers to the time required for the desctructive effects of your so-called "progressive" policies enacted after WW2 to manifest (i.e. the early to mid 1970's). One thing is certain: you have no understanding whatever of my position. Like most young socialists, you seem to understand only a caricature of capitalism. More important, you seem to make little effort to understand my arguments....
... On that last note, I do find it fascinating how such discussions seem to accomplish absolutely nothing. Perhaps we operate under different definitions? It almost seems as if you reply to the comments of another. After all, I certainly do not advocate for any "pro-corporate neoliberal policies", and I would be the last person to defend the IMF, World Bank, and WTO.
If you're a true market liberal or right-libertarian who genuinely wants a market economy free of all government interference, then such an economy has never existed and had no workable model to go by.
Murray Rothbard once stated that there was a mountain of difference between our current state-capitalist system and a proper "free market". And there is; one has existed for the last 250 years, the other has never existed.
Also, you claim that the success of progressive policies is some sort of red herring and that it takes time for them to fail.
There really doesn't seem to be any evidence for this and even IF that were the case, they still have a far better track record than the right-wing economics that have become so popular since the early 80s.
Again, if these aren't the kind of policies you would advocate then just say so and I'll adjust my argument.
@MsSexySocialist, Nobody can know how a particular policy will affect the larger system (call it what you will). We can't even know precisely how a particular policy affected things in the past (although we should expect the effects to require decades to fully manifest, as I expressed earlier). There are too many confounding variables to overcome this difficulty. One can uncover "evidence" for just about whatever they desire under these conditions...
@MsSexySocialist, With this in mind I suggest no specific policies. Rather, I suggest guidelines based in caution and humility. For example, legislation (if pursued at all) should first be applied at a local level. The purpose here is to minimize and contain the damage. Here's another: a law (if considered at all) must apply to all individuals without qualification, and must be able to be practically enforced. The purpose here is equality under the law...
@MsSexySocialist, In general, I hold the view that all policies should have the fundamental purpose of protecting individuals from the initiation of force from others. Unfortunately, while interesting, I fear a discussion of political philosophy will lead nowhere. Perhaps we should discuss economics (where I suspect any differences we have may lie). A simple question: What do you believe to be the role of money? Do you believe we can do without it?
@MsSexySocialist, By the way, I have no interest in debate. My incentive for corresponding with you is only to understand your position. Those who advocate for socialism have long been an enigma to me, and I wish to understand your mind set and values.
. . . has any chance of being implemented soon. But taking the long view with regard to the future development of human society it seems like the most rational thing to push for; along with the dissolution of all forms of concentrated power - such as the state, corporations, and other such institutions.
Now what to replace money with, that's another question.
I couldn't hope to lay out all the possible alternatives here but I could in a PM if you're at all interested.
@rosentonemusic Yes, the youth in this country are entitled. They have a mountain of debt on their shoulders from the dozens of military excursions their parents pushed for, they have hundreds of thousands of dollars in student debt because they were told they had to have a college edu, and they have a hollow job market, collapsing nat'l infrastructure, and system that says "Fuck you for being poor, you need to pay for your PARENTS' entitlements because they don't want to pay for them."
Jesus Lee... Really? Corporatism is OK with you? Why are you so "pro" status quo? You know damned well there is something seriously wrong with the Bail Outs, TARP and regulatory agencies. The "good ol' boys" of Washington need to get their eviction papers along with their fat cat banker buddies who RAPED the US through these entitlements. Jesus Lee... You seem like such a smart man.
Lee, it is disingenuous to frame the occupy movement as crazy leftists who want to destroy capitalism. A huge amount of money has been spent on bailing out the banks and those banks are still paying their employees massive wages and bonuses for failing. The bankers damaged the world economy by gambling with depositors money in a reckless way. Lehman Bros were leveraged to an insane degree and nobody went to jail. That is what people are mainly upset about.
@Tux8o The fact that incomes are not equal is actually good, so your CEOs making more than average workers thing is completely irrelevant. You simply want to have the rich hung up and executed, then slaughter innovators, if you want actual equality. However, you are actually advocating Soviet Union policies of income equality. Face it. You're a Communist. You hate the general population. Your ideals have slaughtered hundreds of millions.
NuclearWizard 1 day ago
@tux8o Fuck off, income inequality should exist, because when you try to eradicate it, you get dictators like Stalin, mass genocide inflicted upon political opponents, etc. Do you want the Soviet Union in America? If not, then don't say you want income equality, because you really don't.
NuclearWizard 1 day ago
@NuclearWizard fuck off, free and democratic society should not allow the absurdities of corporate greed that result in ceo to worker pay at 475:1 in the usa while in canada and europe the numbers are between 15:1 and 20:1 income inequality is tolerable and even desirable but not at the levels of today, i stand by my statement that income inequality is the problem, but the solution is not income equality but a balance like in Canada or Germany etc. heres the facts i referred to,
Tux8o 1 day ago
@NuclearWizard ill send you an inbox, i didnt know we couldnt post links in youtube comments
Tux8o 1 day ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Those extreme demands couldn't possibly be posted by right-wing trolls. No sir. The right-wing would never do that. HTWW (pretentious fap) will never tell the truth he'll just cherry pick, quote out of context and mislead people. All to control people and make money for himself.
colddrake80 3 days ago
i don't agree with you on much, but I thought this was a pretty good video with a lot of good points. Good job.
Ninjaculation 3 days ago
Damnit Lee, stop lumping the crazy people in with the sane ones. Your doing the exact same thing you said that the Liberal media did with the Tea Party. They find the nuttiest guy in the crowd with the most batshit ideas and film him, and then use him to point and say
"LOOK AT THE CRAZY PERSON! HE REPRESENTS ALL OF THE PROTESTORS! THEY'RE ALL LIKE THIS!!!"
With every political movement, there will be loons. I've seen them at OWS and Tea Party protests. And I think you have too.
zzman305 3 days ago 2
@zzman305 Except the Tea Party is hideously slanted in favor of the loons
AToxicOrange 2 days ago
@AToxicOrange
Funny because statistically the Tea Party was higher educated than the average voter, and actually didn't have riots, arrests, rapes, theft, and overdoses that OWS had.
Smullet90 2 days ago
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@Smullet90 Funny because statistically, Youtube commenters have no proof when they pull the "statistically" card.
What I find delicious about the TP is that it's made up of well off older people (also white), who believe that an education automatically equals intelligence and common sense.
AToxicOrange 2 days ago
@AToxicOrange Some portions of it are and some aren't...
zzman305 2 days ago
Lee, there is no such thing as American exceptionalism
Tux8o 4 days ago
The Occupiers have their right to protest like everyone else, but there is a good way to protest and bad way and well they did it the bad way. What they stand for is one thing, but it doesn't say how well thought out their message is when they practically turn a park into a disease ridden zone. They've also had so many arrests, some assault people who disagree with them, and they do very vile acts to police and in the park. I'm all for free speech, but not when it breaks laws and is this bad.
101Snipeshot 6 days ago
I feel like OWS has legitimate grievances, and have the right to protest as much as they want. But they don't have the right to turn someones private property into a shantytown. The police kicking you out is not a violation of your first ammendment right. Someones owns those parks. They payed for them. Its there land, and if they don't want you there you have to leave. Its not "the evil corporations silencing the voice", its basic property rights that have existed since the nations founding.
zzman305 6 days ago
So, Lee, you complain about how bad unemployment is under President Obama.
Then you say that the Occupiers should go and get jobs.
Apparently, you don't understand the concept of irony.
loqutor 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"Anonymous" is a thrill ride that ends in slavery.
Don't be herded like sheep to the slaughter house!
"Anonymous" = "Illuminati"
Don't Be Fooled!
youtube.com/watch?v=tHEPkhMNkhw
TheGreatSquash 1 week ago
I cannot believe that people still think that the "American Dream" of capitalism can still work.
fixdeluxe1 2 weeks ago
man, i really don't like you..
birdfree911us 2 weeks ago
I am one of the ''left wingers'' you are refering to, I like capitalism, I just wanna do some improvements. But I hate the corporate takeover of USA's democracy.
Abbe235 2 weeks ago
@Abbe235 I'm glad you're speaking out. :)
I'm just curious. What kind of improvements do you personally want?
coyotefever105 1 week ago
@coyotefever105 Do you know that Christianity is correct? The world around us reveals that G-d DOES exist, and the historical evidence reveals that Jesus Christ really did come to this earth and there is overwhelming evidence that Jesus Christ really did physically rise from the dead. Jesus is coming again and the signs of the end times that were foretold in the Bible are coming to pass.
marionetemanJ 1 week ago
@marionetemanJ What does that have to do with this? No offense but you kind of just came out of nowhere.
coyotefever105 1 week ago
@marionetemanJ Which part of The Bible 'sold' you on Jesus' existence?
SocialDissimulation 1 week ago
Steve Jobs was a horrible person. Fathered a daughter he didn't support, never donated to charity, stole the ideas of Steve Wozniack and then proceeded to fire him from Apple, worked his employees 120 hours a week in the early days of Apple, enforced horrendously strict company and copyright policies, and convinced the public that modifying technology that you bought and own is illegal. Also, installing back doors into every OS X operating system was a pretty great thing, too.
slyscafe 2 weeks ago
Okay, you lose immediately by referring to Occupy Wall Street as a radical leftist movement. If you actually took the time to listen, you'd see that a good majority of them are not in favor of democrats. They're not in favor of the political system altogether. This left-right bullshit tears conversation and intelligence down and is only for lazy people who want to pigeonhole everyone. Fuck that stupidity. Think independently.
DarthMocha 2 weeks ago
social darwinism was created by Rockefeller and Carnegie to explain the stratification of wealth during the gilded age of industrialization, in that time unions were put down by military intervention & wages were cut in half to increase profits & widespread monopolies ,vertical&horizontal integrated business practices dominated.The lower classes DO need the government to keep the rich from taking everything for themselves , pure capitalism has just as many problems as a pure form of socialism
ratthechicken 3 weeks ago
@ratthechicken I don't think you're making your point very well. I'm no historian, so I'm just going to use your statement, here. If you're claiming "military intervention" was used to put down unions, I would say the government was part of the problem. The one Occupy statement I know I agree with is that the influence of special interests on the government needs to be eliminated. I think the government is the problem in that exchange, though.
lunargamer 3 weeks ago
@lunargamer i think the government out too , im kind of a libertarian like that i say the government should be taken almost completely out of our lives ,besides the judiciary branch
ratthechicken 3 weeks ago
@ratthechicken It's not pure capitalism that brings in government troops to destroy unions. That's crony capitalism.
FrankJeeves 2 weeks ago
@ratthechicken The idea of social Darwinism was "created" by Francis Galton, Thomas Malthus, and more specifically Herbert Spencer after origin of the species. I assume you mean it was applied to the situation by Rockefeller and Carnegie? Not to detract from you other points, to which I agree fully.
Waredwr 5 days ago
It's unfair to represent individual opinions within Occupy as typical of the whole movement. I could find individual examples from the T prty which would make you squirm. The T party has a clear agenda, set of demands + is organised . Occupy is the opposite; poorly organised with no clear agenda. It's hipster politics 4 counter-cultural rebels. You've more to fear from the likes of me, (a tie wearing Socialist,) who believes in engaging the system, not to bring it down but to make it fairer.
CardiffClassicGuitar 3 weeks ago
@CardiffClassicGuitar Then how do you find out what their message is?
I guarantee you if there was 1 individual who actually gave a decent response to what their message is, you would say thats their message, even though its only 1 of them saying that.
superlucci 3 weeks ago
True, the radical left is full of under-educated, overzealous, would-be reformers, but the radical right is famous for its insensitive, profit-hungry, heartless industrialists. Another user below points out that static concepts cannot be applied to a dynamic world. It seems like you would like your opponents' viewpoints to become irrelevant so you can continue hiding from this dynamism. Life isn't idealism, no matter what your stance. It'll take more than conservatism to help us out of our mess.
MrRiisLarsen 3 weeks ago
Three of the main reasons corporations outsource, is because the minimum wage is lower overseas, also because of high taxes, & unreasonable union demands. if the minimum wage is $20 all small business will close & all corporations will permanently move oversees. Obama supports the wall street protesters because he want Socialism as well
TheJoeShow4 4 weeks ago
Lee Doren is an ENTJ.
MelvinThe42 4 weeks ago
Problem with most conservatives. They become engulfed in politics and business and forget that the real world is dynamic. You can't apply static ideas to a dynamic world. Basic economics.
buddhadick 1 month ago
@buddhadick How is the world dynamic? Society is dynamic, would be the better way to say it.
Darkeklaw 3 weeks ago
American exceptionalism is a myth
Tux8o 1 month ago
OWS is about income inequality
Tux8o 1 month ago 4
@Tux8o Maybe that's because the work between the two is inequal.
IamaRifle 1 week ago
@IamaRifle i dont understand what your saying, what are you replying to, what is your point? are you dissenting, do you agree? what are you talking about?
Tux8o 1 week ago
@Tux8o: "i dont understand what your saying"
You also don't understand the difference between YOU'RE and YOUR. Stop spending so much time on Youtube and pick up a book.
YOU'RE embarrassing yourself with YOUR lack of intelligence.
OhNoYouCant 1 week ago
@OhNoYouCant thanks for correcting my grammer in such a helpful, classy way
Tux8o 5 days ago
@Tux8o I'm just saying that people who do a less important job get less of the wealth that the company makes. If you want more money, get the job that pays better.
IamaRifle 1 week ago
@IamaRifle thats completely understandable and acceptable, but to what extent? i think as does OWS, that that balance is way off
Tux8o 5 days ago
@Tux8o If you know anything about the free market you can see that it is completely fair and just. When you add in a manipulative government, all of the benefits of the free market go away for the sake of company survival.
IamaRifle 3 days ago
@IamaRifle if by fair and just you mean the corporations serve the share holders at the expense of the workers, consumers, manufacturers and environment, then yes, very fair and just.
Tux8o 2 days ago
@Tux8o
what exactly do you mean by "income inequality?"
NoamTube 1 week ago
@NoamTube the income is too unequal and the poorest are suffering in third world conditions while the rich are richer than they ever have been
Tux8o 5 days ago
@Tux8o
So I take it you're in favor of socialism then. Otherwise that's how the world works.
NoamTube 5 days ago
@NoamTube im against wage slavery, im against corporatism, i think capitalism has a place, but socialism in a democratic state is great, look at sweden, norway, switzlerland
Tux8o 4 days ago
@Tux8o
Socialism is really in the same group as communism and dictatorship. Look at China, N. Korea, former USSR, etc. Only free capitalist countries have the highest quality of life.
NoamTube 4 days ago
@NoamTube Why do Sweden, and many other other European countries have such high quality of life, even though they're socialist? In practice Communism is bad, and Socialism won't really work anymore.
SuperSkarmDG 2 days ago
@NoamTube by noam, are you refering to Noam Chomsky? to answer your point, Sweden, Denmark, Belguim, Canada, Norway, Switzerland, Finland (happier and more socialist than the USA) so i guess capitalism doesn't equate a high quality of life. what does? equality, freedom, respect for civil rights, social solidarity, and you may say that the USA is the home of the free, but i would say that only in song is the US free, because the wage slaves that make up the working class are less free than ever.
Tux8o 2 days ago
@Tux8o
No, I'm referring to my name. Noam Chomsky's a piece of shit. Also, I don't think you've ever been to any of the countries you've just referred to.
NoamTube 2 days ago
@NoamTube why does it matter if ive been to any of the countries i referred to? but as a matter of fact i have, im a Canadian and have lived in Canada my whole life.
Tux8o 1 day ago
@Tux8o No, actually it isn't. OWS is about not showering, laying about on public property because no one else wants you, and looking for handouts. Just watch some of the videos of the OWS crowd - burnouts who reek of Patchouli that cannot conjure up cogent thought.
OhNoYouCant 1 week ago
@OhNoYouCant thats a sweeping generalization, not only that, but your wrong. OWS is about the common people having enough of the rich outsourcing their jobs, closing factories, lowering wages, laying off workers, sending jobs out of North America and serving the shareholders at the cost of the workers. BOOM! bottom line, greed fucks shit up, and thats not going to be tolerated
Tux8o 5 days ago
@Tux8o OWS is about stupid entitled nitwits who don't understand capitalism, market dynamics, or business mechanics. "Income inequality" will always exist in systems that provide upward mobility economically. Lashing out irrationally without any reasonable, workable alternatives is the height of ignorance.
pretorious700 6 days ago
@pretorious700 capitalism has turned into corporatism and i dont understand how people can defend the current system, pervasive corporations with advertising that permeates every aspect of human interaction, i cant even watch tv without half of the broadcasting being corporate interests fighting for my mind and money. any system that allows the amazing discrepancies in income seen in today's society is deeply flawed, and to fight it, protest is extremely rational.
Tux8o 5 days ago
Wall Street has been stealing from the people of the world since the days of Ronald Asshole Reagan. You are a piece of shit for being against the movement to bring them to justice. Fuck you.
LiberalJerseyman 1 month ago
again great points by our humble >howtheworldworks<, luckily on the right there is no one who wants to tear down the system, like say create a medieval christian dominion, or a war empire, or a randian egotopia, all perfectly normal, moderate people there
always remember that you can judge movements and ideas by any a few or even single individuals of its fringe representatives
random0815 1 month ago
what bothers me is that no one in the Republican party is taking a stand for returning America to a capitalist form of government. We have presidential candidates that are proposing to undo the damage done by socialism with more subsidies, more tariffs and state controlled socialist medical insurance. How many people in America can define capitalism,fascism, and communism. Flat tax;close the fed/state bureaucracy. ban government price controls.
halloranedward 1 month ago
You can't be against Capitalism, if you think that anyone is against that, you are deluded. Capitalism will always exist in any form of political ideology.
Sethagrius 1 month ago 5
@Sethagrius you cant be against fascism, if you.., works just as well, the problem starts when capitalism becomes a political ideology, same as making social welfare, war, self interest aso. one, capitalism is a tool, a functional device, not more, not less
random0815 1 month ago
I can't even watch an entire HTWW video. Conservatism makes my head hurt.I don't know how people can actually think like this.
ItsMeDauntless 1 month ago
@ItsMeDauntless I'm sure that lots of things make your head hurt. Eg, thoughts.
hayesism 1 month ago
@hayesism Same insult, two different videos. I'm impressed by your creativity.
ItsMeDauntless 1 month ago
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hayesism 1 month ago
@ItsMeDauntless Nnnnnnope I call bullshit. Which was the other video?
hayesism 1 month ago
@hayesism "dear young liberals on youtube"
ItsMeDauntless 1 month ago
@ItsMeDauntless Nnnnnnope appears to be bullshit.
hayesism 1 month ago
this guy doesnt realize that occupy wall street was more about corperate handouts in government and how it leads to income inequality. i dont know his history but he probably some silver spoon fresh out of grad school pinhead. grow up get a job make something of yourself other than these pompus you tube videos and then come back when your in your 40s and talk economy with us. TY
rikb631 1 month ago
@rikb631 "silver spoon fresh out of grad school pinhead" describes this guy PERFECTLY
57ctods 1 month ago
Wait the Occupy movement can not gather together against corruption and the money in politics but when the tea party says that obama is hitler and how the federal reserve is proof that government is evil THATS OK!?
pobloman1 1 month ago
@pobloman1 Conservative logic.
ItsMeDauntless 1 month ago
@ItsMeDauntless True dat :)
pobloman1 1 month ago
Oh goodness, this is like ''Faux News'' turned up to 11.
This guy is like most Right-wing Conservatards. He has the romantic idea that anyone within a Capitalist society can succeed on merit and buy themselves a mansion and have 100 dollar bills to jerk off into.
However the current deregulated system is leading to all sorts of abuse of the economic model.
Also, the Tea Party are far fucking worse than OWS. The teabaggers hold up signs saying ''Obama's plan = White Slavery''.
LOL, morons.
ec123456789able 1 month ago
This is fucking disgusting.
WeEatBrainz 2 months ago
Oh wow, this is just like I'm watching FOX News.
GiantSandles 2 months ago
you do not think; because you talk "they", can you NEVER talk "we"?
Haasenpad 2 months ago
"if this was part of a tea party movement we would hear about this more in the news"
But not from you, or from Fox "news".
Because you agree with the tea party, so they are all saints.
Shonem 2 months ago
STOP MAKING VIDEOS!, PLEASE STOP.... its disgusting. Your fox news in training, typical, unoriginal, borish, and oh yeah ....WRONG! You are a white middle class male... EVERYTHING you have EVER known about poverty and systems of injustice comes from some fucking book. You have no clue nor any courage to do the kind of research of knowledge that actually matters....... seeing for yourself what this movement is about-TALK to people affected by this brutal form of capitalism. Just..stop, its sad
rrwk17 2 months ago
Occupy doesn't stand for the left wing. The left wing is desperately trying to copy Occupy. I am active in Germany, most of us are heavily educated on the things we're trying to adress. Occupy isn't about Capitalism, because true Capitalism isn't the problem. It is the capitalistic system being abused by positions of power in economy and politics alike, and the perversion of wealth, being able to control everything and entire lives by nothing but money. That's something I bet you would agree on.
wololo696969 2 months ago
IMO capitalism is good.
MathPhysChemSkyNerd 2 months ago 9
@MathPhysChemSkyNerd where in the world has social democracy ever condemned capitalism? its the same strawmen as pitching democracy against the republic, none of the worlds big democracies were created without constitutions, no real social democracy has ever tried to abolish capitalism
random0815 1 month ago
@MathPhysChemSkyNerd Yeah it's good how it leads to a large amount of people in poverty and money divided unfairly.
Tool9395 4 weeks ago
@Tool9395 Yeah it's totally OK that we have to divide other people's hard earned money to folks who have just proven that they won't work if they don't have to. What right therefore do we have to instate a non-capitalist system which truly divides the money unfairly?
MathPhysChemSkyNerd 3 weeks ago
@MathPhysChemSkyNerd I think you're forgetting human nature meaning some people naturally are more likely to work hard. Some people are born into families which means they don't end up with a good education, and some people are born into poverty and poverty is hard to escape. Also it's inexcusable how low taxes on the super-rich are.
Tool9395 3 weeks ago
One of my favorite things this year was seeing a friend post about hating the establishment and big corporations and then post about going to Walmart on Black Friday to buy a PS3. Anyone else see the irony? At least he's getting involved...
rosentonemusic 2 months ago
closed minds should come with closed mouths applies to you
007natasja 2 months ago
Stop laying and do you think that greed is good and about the the person who attack the Jewish gay he is a Jew. occupy are not met to attack attack the rich or jew it about stopping cooperate money from influencing policy. you right wing nut
vexelworrior 3 months ago in playlist More videos from HowTheWorldWorks
Wow, you really don't get it. The world would be very simple if you could make sweeping generalization as you suggest. The point is the Occupy movement is broad but at heart has the same discontent (though with a different view point) as the Tea Party movement that the political system in this country is broken.
jthughes81 3 months ago
socialism commuting resources to give everyone an opportunity to be successful........unless you're completely greedy i don't see how it has to interfere with entrepreneurship .....if the markets and the feds were better regulated you'd be better at finding crooks...I don't see hows cons make it seems socialism is for the lazy the whole reason that system has worked functionally in countries like sweden and norway is if there is high employment.
BidNJay 3 months ago
This isn't Obama's base. As much as you want it to be, it just isn't.
Blastfimus 3 months ago 5
@Blastfimus I hear that if you say something enough it might come true.....
666or999 3 weeks ago
Fuck this guy... Idk why the amazing atheist suggested this douche
progresIVOMind 3 months ago
@sniper1724: “The shift reflects the growth in spending for programs focused on the elderly population (such as Social Security and Medicare), in which benefits are not limited to low-income households,” the study explains. “As a result, government transfers reduced the dispersion of household income by less in 2007 than in 1979.” Sadly this is a fact that most liberals don't want to hear.
CrackedBiscuit 3 months ago
@sniper1724: Furthermore, the egregious income inequality that we face today is the deplorable result of government preventing people from entering the market. But I must note that income inequality is also the byproduct of liberal redistribution programs. A CBO study found that in 1979, households in the bottom income quintile received more than 50 percent of all transfer payments. In 2007, similar households received about 35 percent of transfers. “The shift reflects the growth in spending fo
CrackedBiscuit 3 months ago
@sniper1724: The exploitation and poverty you deplore are the results of government intervention, not free market capitalism. Without government intervention, the poor could make due with the limited faculties they possess and attempt to work their way up the income chain.
CrackedBiscuit 3 months ago
@sniper1724: To further emphasize my point, I will proceed to tell you about my aunt. She has a passion for baking and an acute talent for it. In fact, she even has an outstanding portfolio of all the beautiful cakes she has baked. Unfortunately, health department regulations and licensing fees prevent her from profiting from her talent, simply because she lacks the capital and the space to comply with the regulations.
CrackedBiscuit 3 months ago
@sniper1724: The city government also enforces a single fare structure, enforces a common paint job, and now is even forcing all city cabs to upgrade to high-cost, high-tech GPS and payment systems, whether or not the cabbie or his customer happens to want them. The point is that without these onerous regulations, a poor person with only a van could start his own business in the free market.
CrackedBiscuit 3 months ago
@sniper1724: Government regulations also hurt the average person trying to get by. Here in New York, if you want to start a transportation service, you can't unless you have purchased a "medallion," a government-created license the caps the number of taxi cabs at 13,000. Besides the cost of a medallion, cab owners are also legally required to pay an annual licensing fee of $550 and to pay for three inspections by the city government each year, at a total annual cost of $150. The city government
CrackedBiscuit 3 months ago
@sniper1724: Jobs are exported because this country is unfriendly to free market capitalism. Facing a corporate tax rate of 39.2% (the highest in the world) and onerous government-imposed regulations, job creators have realized that it is economically unprofitable to create work in this country.
CrackedBiscuit 3 months ago
Yes, they're ALL like that.
apocalypse1280 3 months ago
so in the world of HTWW. activism = bad?
lordblazer 3 months ago
Norway has a $20 minimum wage.
lordblazer 3 months ago
occupy wall street is a bunch of left wing kids. who have nothing better to do but stand around and smoke weed. The fact is that the companies on wall street employ millions of people. They bring prosperity to impoverished nations. Just because they make a dollar off of their own hard work to start their company does not make them evil.
chuckfrmgamestop 3 months ago
Steve Jobs moved most of the American jobs overseas, dude seriously how did he help the economy. He exploited the fact that you live in a capitalist country and make money at the cost of the environment and the economy. Blaming the students to sell your eBook, that's seriously low. Any company that holds back technology and releases them at a snails pace, hoping that their customers are stupid enough to buy their new product every year should be taken out of business.
bartdacaveman 3 months ago
You're a.....
RETARD! :D congratulations
F3udF1st 3 months ago
This guy is way off on everything. The protesters don't want to tear down the banks they want banks to be more responsible. Obama's base is not the far left, these people can't stand him (too far to the right). It's sad that the Obama haters are so disconnected from reality. They act like he's going to reign in Stalinism, when in reality he's like a Nixon centrist. I compare him to Nixon because alot of modern Democrats are really the 70s republicans. At-least know why you dislike him
stormblast49 3 months ago
What you are saying is classic right wing propaganda. It presents capitalism as a perfect meritocracy, in reality today it is only to a limited extent. You can move up the classes but it is difficult and there are limited opportunities. So only a relatively small amount of ppl could move up, do you think it is right to blame everyone else for not?? All while everyone in the upper class stays rich and gets richer.
Just look at the reality of generation after generation of poverty.
sniper1724 3 months ago 5
@sniper1724 It's a meritocracy only to the extent to which it is a capitalist system, which is very little. We have a central bank cartel that pulls the strings on our economy almost without repercussion and is rewarded for failure, protectionism and various foolish restrictions on trade, a collectivist education system, and a complete lack of understanding of basic economic principles within our electorate, and yet our situation is attributed to the failings of "Capitalism". It's not capitalism
ScionAscendant 2 months ago
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hayesism 1 month ago
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@sniper1724 What you are saying is classic left wing propaganda.
hayesism 1 month ago
@DarklingX earn it? Are you implying that wallstreet has earned it by being parasites? Many people, in fact most people work as hard if not harder than corporate owners bankers ect. who make money with more money. Do they deserve 80+ of the wealth just because they are in business, while the majority who work as hard (to subsist) are miserable?
There needs to be an incentive to work yes but look at reality now, people can work hard for their whole lives and still be desperately poor.
sniper1724 3 months ago
Damn, you guys talking shit misinterpret this completely.
illevarslendetyrann 3 months ago
fuck this dumb fuck! looking like mclovin.
yanollores23 3 months ago
your on the wrong side buddy...its not the schools fault it da greedy ass 1%
freemanabdulla12 3 months ago
Faggot!
RandomStranger1972 3 months ago
How sad it is that this seemingly intelligent man does NOT want the US to become more democratic, but sees movements like "Occupy Wall Street" as a danger to the capitalist system that allows greedy bosses, like himself, to give eachother huge pay bonuses while the rest of the economy is going down the tubes. Sad, Sad, Sad.
rektor4 3 months ago
@rektor4, a pure democracy is NOT desirable. The U.S. economic system has become "progressively" (pun intended) LESS capitalistic over most of its history... particularly over the last 50 years or so. A major problem with the "occupy Wall St." crowd is wrongfully blaming capitalism as the problem. The widespread gnorance of economics is perhaps the single most grievous problem that has led to the problems we see today.
mariasman100 3 months ago
@mariasman100 I agree, the industrial economy in the US has always been dependant on enormous subsidies from central government - it has long been a fact that a pure market based capitalist economy cannot work. But, with the growth of the financial sector and the "virtual" economy we see a frightening greed and a selfishness that is willing to do anything to earn a buck, without regard to the consequences.
BLAST14 3 months ago
@BLAST14, true... the U.S. industrial economy (in general) has depended upon subsidies since its inception, most notably through tariffs. However, the interventions into the economy executed by the federal government today is orders of magnitude greater than during the past. The growing subsidies to the financial sector has taken many forms, and it has encouraged exceedlingly wreckless behavior.
mariasman100 3 months ago
@mariasman100 It is my firm conviction that the US has never had a true democratic system in which the ordinary man has had a real say in government. The lack over worker institutions and "grass root" movements has allowed first the rich land owners, and now the big corporations to dictate government policies, and the development of the US economy to favour a small group of "elite". The propaganda which excludes all other forms of political activity as "comunist" or "anti-american" is a promlem
BLAST14 3 months ago
@BLAST14, It is my firm conviction that a "true" (i.e. pure) democratic system is not desirable. Even the "ordinary man" will rationalize a means to gain at the expense of others, particularly when the means is a glorified institution known as "government". In any system there are ruthless and depraved sociopaths who prey upon the weak. We can only hope to minimize this predation. Make no mistake, these sociopaths finally gain control over all governments ... "democratic" or not.
mariasman100 3 months ago
@mariasman100 Yes, I see your point, but isn't a democratic system with it's checks and the possibility to send legislation back for "re-thinking" the only way to control these psycopaths? The problem as I see it is that the same people have networks and power bases that restrict the flow of information that would show them for what they are. As Christopher Hitchins put it "I don't want better polititians, I want a better electorate!" People must be well informed to make good decisions.
BLAST14 3 months ago
@BLAST14, The "psycopaths" are simply taking advantage of the situation... that's what they do. In truth, most of us act as the "psycopaths" (or would if we could)... they're just better at gaming the system than the rest of us. “Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.” Bastiat
mariasman100 2 months ago
@mariasman100 @blast14 Being a sociopath is an advantage in a society in which the common goal of power and profit is at heart. If you don't give a shit about other people, it's way easier to manipulate and fuck people over. Pure free market capitalism is a sociopaths paradise--it'd be mafia organizations running the non-sociopathic masses; pure democracy is perfect for a sociopath to manipulate the masses and quickly turn the country into an authoritarian regime. See: the rise of Hitler.
treefingers1206 2 months ago
@treefingers1206, The U.S. is less capitalistic today than ever before in its history, and probably more democratic than ever. If anything, I expect we're more vulnerable to totalitarianism than ever for this reason (as you seem to suggest). This is more likely with the consolidation of political power. Please note that free market capitalism is diametrically opposed to authoritarianism. One thing Hitler abhorred was classical liberalism. Sociopaths will always exist. The worst possible...
mariasman100 2 months ago
... solution would be one that gives them control of governments.
mariasman100 2 months ago
@treefingers1206, by the way, profit earned in a pure free market capitalist economy indicates the creation of value. That should not be discouraged. Of course, the thoroughly corrupted money and banking system today does not allow the price system to serve as an accurate measure here. Today, those who become wealthy have often destroyed value. Most people can't seem to understand that the progressive departure from free market principles over many decades is the primary cause.
mariasman100 2 months ago
@mariasman100
A "free market" has never existed. Ergo; you can't "depart" from something that was never a reality.
This country (like Britain before it) became rich by being the most economically protectionist nation in the world; all throughout the 19th century.
When excessive liberalization was tried it gave us the great depression.
When progressive policies were tried from 1945-1970s they brought both rich and developing nations prosperity.
Neoliberalism destroyed all that.
MsSexySocialist 2 months ago
@MsSexySocialist, Protectionism does not create wealth. The intelligent allocation of scarce resources (i.e. capital) toward the goal of value creates wealth. The price system is the single most important tool. The 1920's saw an 8 year period where credit expanded by 60% while the gold stock expanded only 15%. This distorted the relative prices leading to perverse incentives and the subsequent unwise allocation of capital. A crash was inevitable. The Great Depression was then caused by.....
mariasman100 2 months ago
.... the unprecendented interventions spearheaded by the Hoover administration, itself inspired by the dominant political philosophy of the day, namely "progressivism". I challenge you to do a bit a research into Hoover's administration and his personal beliefs. The Roosevelt administration's "New Deal" was merely a continuation and expansion of Hoover's interventions. These programs prevented the necessary reallocation of capital and adjustment of relative prices. The same thing occurs today.
mariasman100 2 months ago
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@mariasman100
Explain how the US and Britain became wealthy due to "free market" policies when history contradicts this idea.
Please also explain why between 1945 and 1975 ( the golden age of Keynesianism) there were globally:
Zero banking crises.
16 currency crises.
And only one twin crises (banking + currency).
But between 1977 and 1997 however we had,
17 banking crises.
57 currency crises.
21 twin crises.
MsSexySocialist 2 months ago
@MsSexySocialist, Please note that correlation is not causation. It takes time for the effects of a new paradigm to manifest. In fact, a generation or more should be expected. If you desire a thorough discussion, then send me a message through my channel.
mariasman100 2 months ago
@mariasman100
"Please note that correlation is not causation"
I'm well aware. But the burden of proof is on advocates of pro-corporate neoliberal policies to provide evidence that their policies are beneficial; especially with regard to currently developing countries who are having privatization and trade liberalization enforced upon them by the "unholy trinity"; the IMF, World Bank, and WTO.
All evidence points to rich countries having become rich through nationalist . . .
MsSexySocialist 2 months ago
@mariasman100
. . . and protectionist economic policies.
The UK didn't embrace free trade till the 1860s, after it had become the most powerful nation in the world.
The US was literally the most protectionist nation in the world all through the 19th century.
Yet these rich nations are now ramming down the throats of poorer nations the same economics that would have destroyed them had they been tried in their early stages of development.
If Japan had embraces trade . . .
MsSexySocialist 2 months ago
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@mariasman100
. . . liberalization in the 60s, Toyota would just be another subsidiary of GM.
"It takes time for the effects of a new paradigm to manifest"
Your economics have had over 30 years to manifest; how long is it going to take? It doesn't help the case when you look at the comparison to the preceding 30-35 years of progressive economics
"In fact, a generation or more should be expected"
This sounds like pure blind faith. Where's the evidence that it'll ever arrive?
MsSexySocialist 2 months ago
@MsSexySocialist My statement that "a generation or more should be expected" refers to the time required for the desctructive effects of your so-called "progressive" policies enacted after WW2 to manifest (i.e. the early to mid 1970's). One thing is certain: you have no understanding whatever of my position. Like most young socialists, you seem to understand only a caricature of capitalism. More important, you seem to make little effort to understand my arguments....
mariasman100 2 months ago
... On that last note, I do find it fascinating how such discussions seem to accomplish absolutely nothing. Perhaps we operate under different definitions? It almost seems as if you reply to the comments of another. After all, I certainly do not advocate for any "pro-corporate neoliberal policies", and I would be the last person to defend the IMF, World Bank, and WTO.
mariasman100 2 months ago
@mariasman100
Okay then, what policies do you favor?
If you're a true market liberal or right-libertarian who genuinely wants a market economy free of all government interference, then such an economy has never existed and had no workable model to go by.
Murray Rothbard once stated that there was a mountain of difference between our current state-capitalist system and a proper "free market". And there is; one has existed for the last 250 years, the other has never existed.
MsSexySocialist 2 months ago
@mariasman100
Also, you claim that the success of progressive policies is some sort of red herring and that it takes time for them to fail.
There really doesn't seem to be any evidence for this and even IF that were the case, they still have a far better track record than the right-wing economics that have become so popular since the early 80s.
Again, if these aren't the kind of policies you would advocate then just say so and I'll adjust my argument.
MsSexySocialist 2 months ago
@MsSexySocialist, Nobody can know how a particular policy will affect the larger system (call it what you will). We can't even know precisely how a particular policy affected things in the past (although we should expect the effects to require decades to fully manifest, as I expressed earlier). There are too many confounding variables to overcome this difficulty. One can uncover "evidence" for just about whatever they desire under these conditions...
mariasman100 2 months ago
@MsSexySocialist, With this in mind I suggest no specific policies. Rather, I suggest guidelines based in caution and humility. For example, legislation (if pursued at all) should first be applied at a local level. The purpose here is to minimize and contain the damage. Here's another: a law (if considered at all) must apply to all individuals without qualification, and must be able to be practically enforced. The purpose here is equality under the law...
mariasman100 2 months ago
@MsSexySocialist, In general, I hold the view that all policies should have the fundamental purpose of protecting individuals from the initiation of force from others. Unfortunately, while interesting, I fear a discussion of political philosophy will lead nowhere. Perhaps we should discuss economics (where I suspect any differences we have may lie). A simple question: What do you believe to be the role of money? Do you believe we can do without it?
mariasman100 2 months ago
@MsSexySocialist, By the way, I have no interest in debate. My incentive for corresponding with you is only to understand your position. Those who advocate for socialism have long been an enigma to me, and I wish to understand your mind set and values.
mariasman100 2 months ago
@mariasman100
"A simple question: What do you believe to be the role of money? Do you believe we can do without it?"
Well that's a very broad question but I'll answer as best I can given the brevity a series a 400 character comments requires.
To jump immediately to the final point, yes I believe that in the long-term we may be able to move forward to a moneyless economy.
Just to make an important point in advance, I don't believe any form of theoretical moneyless economy . . .
MsSexySocialist 2 months ago
@mariasman100
. . . has any chance of being implemented soon. But taking the long view with regard to the future development of human society it seems like the most rational thing to push for; along with the dissolution of all forms of concentrated power - such as the state, corporations, and other such institutions.
Now what to replace money with, that's another question.
I couldn't hope to lay out all the possible alternatives here but I could in a PM if you're at all interested.
MsSexySocialist 2 months ago
@MsSexySocialist, Yes, please PM me... you're so right about the 400 character limit.
mariasman100 2 months ago
we must be careful with this occupy movement
it inspires communism
if left unchecked
Kalkas53 3 months ago
they are standing up for the middle class!
jonnygotz2343 3 months ago 6
@jonnygotz2343 They're entitled and want to vote themselves a piece of the pie.
rosentonemusic 2 months ago
@rosentonemusic Yes, the youth in this country are entitled. They have a mountain of debt on their shoulders from the dozens of military excursions their parents pushed for, they have hundreds of thousands of dollars in student debt because they were told they had to have a college edu, and they have a hollow job market, collapsing nat'l infrastructure, and system that says "Fuck you for being poor, you need to pay for your PARENTS' entitlements because they don't want to pay for them."
treefingers1206 2 months ago
They arent even apart of the democratic party!
jonnygotz2343 3 months ago
Jesus Lee... Really? Corporatism is OK with you? Why are you so "pro" status quo? You know damned well there is something seriously wrong with the Bail Outs, TARP and regulatory agencies. The "good ol' boys" of Washington need to get their eviction papers along with their fat cat banker buddies who RAPED the US through these entitlements. Jesus Lee... You seem like such a smart man.
BikerBry 3 months ago
steve jobs is just a marketer
Alecridge 3 months ago
your bias is showing again
danni12591 3 months ago
@danni12591 When did he ever say it wasn't?
KingPiccolOwned 3 months ago
@KingPiccolOwned I am just saying he is being very bias towards a movement that he clearly doesn't know what he is talking about
danni12591 3 months ago
OWS is not anti-capitalism.
eldoritoman 3 months ago
Lee, it is disingenuous to frame the occupy movement as crazy leftists who want to destroy capitalism. A huge amount of money has been spent on bailing out the banks and those banks are still paying their employees massive wages and bonuses for failing. The bankers damaged the world economy by gambling with depositors money in a reckless way. Lehman Bros were leveraged to an insane degree and nobody went to jail. That is what people are mainly upset about.
versanil 3 months ago
De centralized.left wing has nothing to do with it,most of the left is wall st
ianhowe007 3 months ago