Kenneth Miller--Finding God in Evolution

[simpsonmark]

Straw man alert at .4.57. Dawkins' quote is talking about the physical universe that we can observe and not about his personal reasons for living and appreciating life. Dawkins' existence is not the same as evolution or the universe. What is a Darwinian universe? The theory of evolution only explains the mechanism of evolution and not the universe.

[simpsonmark]

Some questions are not worth asking or are given a significance that they do not merit. What the meaning of life is is one of them.

[simpsonmark]

Why does he need to evoke a God for all this as some part of a Providential plan?

Dawkin's quote is about the universe not Dawkin's own life.

[LoricaLady]

ANYONE: If you see no reply to some posters below they know they are on ignore for things like personal insults, name calling, false accusations of lying & sometimes worse. Such folk follow me & others around, guard dogging YT evo vids with such tactics. If someone else wishes to make the same point I will be happy to give what I feel is "the rest of the story". However, I only debate as long as the other person is civil & objective.

[gorilla199uncensored]

Pitty ken miller has to lie and use his god of gaps (false bible) to try and pretend its a sign from his imaginary friend. The one who murders babies and cant even get its religion correct the first time, or its story book when it had 2 goes.

[LoricaLady]

ANYONE: If you see no response to any posters below they know they are on ignore for things like name calling, personal insults, gross obscenities, false accusations of lying & sometimes worse. Some of them follow me and others around YT with such tactics. If you would like to make any of their same "points" I would be happy to reply with what I feel is "the rest of the story." However, I only debate with those who are civil & objective.

[odinata]

@LoricaLady

You ignore the FACTS that show your magic is a false answer to the diversity of organisms living on Earth.

[LoricaLady]

Did he instruct Colbert, and the audience, that there is 0 scientific about the primal pond theory and that in fact it is anti scientific? Did he tell them that there is 0 evidence life can come from inorganic matter (and no C. Ventner did not create life with his "artificial cell", he simply took a living cell and altered it somewhat) or tell them about the LAW of Biogenesis which states that life can only come from life? No. Evolutionary theory is built on illogic & anti science sophistry.

[gorilla199uncensored]

@LoricaLady

" Evolutionary theory is built on illogic & anti science sophistry."

LOL WRONG!

Thats why you have never refuted the undeniable proofs of evolution I have given you :)

[gorilla199uncensored]

@LoricaLady

" he simply took a living cell and altered it somewhat"

No he destoryed all the DNa in the cell making it a simple container.

They created a new DNA language from scratch and then wrote the DNA for the cell. from scratch.

[LoricaLady]

Why is this molecular biologists trying to not only be an evoevangelist but also some kind of expert on spritual matters? On the Colbert show in a clip here on YT he said that as a Roman Catholic he believes "Jesus Christ is the Creator of all things seen & unseen." Then he holds workshops on The Collapse of Intelligent Design. So....His Creator is stooopid? In that same clip he Colbert tosses out the primal pond idea as if it is scientific fact. There was a "teachable moment" for Miller.

[circusOFprecision]

@LoricaLady

Ken Miller is a walking contradiction. On one hand, he describes evolution as this natural process that brings forth life, an "inherent" inevitability. On the other hand he still speaks of random mutations and the "Darwinian universe". If God is the Intelligence, and intelligence is active and observable, than the "bringing forth of life" should be studied under that assumption.

[LoricaLady]

@circusOFprecision True. And since when did Darwin become the focus of the universe? He never used the scientific method, had a degree in theology, and never showed any origin of any species at all. He was a great b.s. artist though - gotta give him that.

[circusOFprecision]

@LoricaLady

Darwin's great aim was to rid the natural world of design. He despised religion. The whole purpose of his "great" mechanism was to lend plausibility to his philosophy. The only thing he should get credit for is starting a cult.

[odinata]

@circusOFprecision

Organisms evolve.

Your cult is just pissed that the supernatural has been shown to be ridiculous.

[LoricaLady]

@circusOFprecision Yes, I am familiar with his personal history and that of his family.

[odinata]

@LoricaLady

Do you agree with circus that organisms are intelligently designed by the organisms themselves?

[circusOFprecision]

@LoricaLady

Miller talks out of both sides of his mouth. His science is ignorant, but his theology is even worse. It's so horrific, I don't even know how to begin to tackle it.

[odinata]

@circusOFprecision

Perhaps you would like to explain how non-random mutation is responsible for the evolution that you acknowledge happens, when TWO organisms are required to produce offspring?

Or do you recognize the difficulties there?

[odinata]

@circusOFprecision

Do you think that maybe you CAN'T tackle the science because you haven't studied the science?

After all, you claim that evolution REQUIRES an "increase in complexity, you claim science puts bacteria as the ancestors of humans, and all manner of other nonsense and strawman that indicate that you don't have a clue.

Why do you think your personal opinions trump a Doctorate in Cell Biology?

[odinata]

@circusOFprecision

Do you now see the irony of accusing Dr.Miller, Phd of Cell Biology, of being ignorant of science?

He's got a doctorate in a field which you haven't even taken the prerequisites for.

[odinata]

@LoricaLady \

Do you think its possible that organisms Intelligently Design themselves?

[TheEaglestar1]

Evolution is incompatible with chrsitianity.I'm sorry Mr.Miller,but the Bible states that God breathed Life into the first man..this breath was the spirit of a man,the part made in God's image.The hypothesis of evolution of man from chimpanzee negates the existence of spirit in man(God's image) but no spirit in chimpanzee(not in God's image).

Mr.Miller,the spirit does not evolve.It is created.And to be born again spiritually is not a process of evolution either.

[Dumbfoundedification]

Very interesting.. this made me think about evolution differently. I think it's safe to say that you don't have to be a Y.E.C. to believe in God lol

[StevieWonder501]

@Dumbfoundedification Certainly. I'm an Old Earth Creationist personally (although I haven't looked into the creationist/evolutionist conflict in great detail), and I definitely believe in Christ and the Father, through the Spirit.

-Grace and Love

[LoricaLady]

@StevieWonder501 Friend, if you are a Christian then let us listen to what Christ, Yeshua had to say. In regard to the "Old" Testament Yeshua, aka Jesus, upheld everything in them. In fact He spoke of Adam & Eve, Noah & other "Old" Testament figures as if they were literal people. He believed the "Old" Testament. It says the world was created in 7 "yom", i.e. days. That this means literal days is indicated by the phrases "And the evening and the morning were the ...1st, 2nd," etc. days. Cont

[LoricaLady]

@StevieWonder501 Cont. The "Old" Testament says that the sun was created after the plants. There is no way to reconcile the Bible with evolution. There is no way to reconcile what Yeshua taught with what evo teaches.

Now let's look a more double think. MIller can be seen in a YT clip on Colbert saying that, as a Roman Catholic, he believes "That Jesus Christ created all that is, seen & unseen." Then he holds workshops on The Collapse of Intelligent Design! So his Jesus was stupid? Cont.

[LoricaLady]

@StevieWonder501 Cont. In the same YT Colbert clip you can hear Colbert referring to the primal pond which is being taught as how life came to be. Now there is 0 evidence that life can come from inorganic matter. In fact, as always, all the actual evidence is in the exact opposite direction: Historically 100% of time we see that life comes from life. Even w/intelligent design & high tech labs no one has been able to get life any other way. (Venter's "synthetic" cell used a live cell.) Cont.

[LoricaLady]

@StevieWonder501 Cont. Now Miller had a chance to correct Colbert & mention that there is actually 0 evidence for any primal pond or any evidence that inorganic matter could lead to creation of life. But he didn't. He let the statement slide by. This is what we get from evo: a lack of logic and a lack of true science.

If you believe in the Holy Spirit let Him instruct you on who is right, Him or the evolutionists. It can't be both.

[StevieWonder501]

@LoricaLady I believe that, even *if* evolution were to have happened God still created Adam and Eve in a unique way.

I do believe that the earth is older and that the flood was local (which I believe is indisputable looking at Numbers 13:33 - the Nephilim would have *all* been wiped out without any ancestors possible had it been a global flood). However, this doesn't preclude the idea that evolution had to have happened - I just don't take creation as a literal six days (not that you do).

[LoricaLady]

@StevieWonder501 Yes I do believe in a literral 6 day creation. The Bible makes it clear that the flood covered the whole world. If it were just a local flood, for one example, why would He need to put a rainbow in the sky as a sign that the earth would never be flooded again? Why didn't Noah & the animals just pack up & move some place else. Where the nephlim come from is up for debate. Some say some watchers were still messing with us gorgeous earth gals. (Well, we are irresistable. lol)

[StevieWonder501]

@LoricaLady Well, then you're free to believe in a literal 6 day creation. As you know, preaching Christ is certainly more important, and I don't want to waste your time when you could be doing that instead.

"...why would He need to put a rainbow in the sky as a sign that the earth would never be flooded again?"

I don't understand the argument here - how does Him putting a rainbow in the sky disprove an older earth?

As for the Nephilm, Genesis 6:1-4 explains it.

[LoricaLady]

@StevieWonder501 If we are to teach Messiah, let's teach the real One, the One that upheld the truth of Gospels. The One Who is, in a sense, their Author directly and/or indirectly. You have heard evolution all you life and think it must be true so try to reconcile it with the Bible. Again, the Bible says that the sun was created after the plants. The "evening and the morning were the 1st...2nd...etc." day shows the world was created in 7 literal days, or yom. Evolution is not science. Cont.

[LoricaLady]

@StevieWonder501 Cont. I've debated with evolution fans for over 2 years and reading much of evo literature. There is 0, zip, nada, I mean no science whatsoever in it. It is always speculation presented as science (most people can't even tell the difference between the two these days) and one logical fallacy piled on top of another.

Do you really think the sun was friendly to earth a couple of billion years ago? Please see some of the vids on my channel. You may have a pleasant surprise.

[StevieWonder501]

@LoricaLady Again, let us spend our time here to preach Christ. We can debate about this, but it would only take our time away from preaching the true One.

I never said evolution was true (though it seems you've taken it that way) - I'm saying that I'm not sure if it's necessarily false. However, I know Christ is true, and I believe in Him.

I don't preach "young" or "old" earth creationism - I preach Christ.

[LoricaLady]

@StevieWonder501 "I preach Christ." How wo we know Who He is? By reading what He said & what He believed in. He upheld everything in the "Old" Testament. He believed in Adam & Eve & the Flood, Soddom & Gomorrah etc. Do you know how many people have lost their faith in Him because they believe - totally accurately - that the Bible & evolution cannot both be true - and they think that evo is real science, when it's not? Surely you've mentioned Him & had folk start talking evo as the real "truth."

[StevieWonder501]

@LoricaLady This is what I've found when talking to people about Christ - it's better to talk about the cross and Resurrection once to them than to spend days talking about whether evolution is right or wrong. It's not wrong to talk about these things - but we're to preach Christ as our priority first. You can convince them that there really is a God "up there," but it means absolutely nothing if they don't put their trust in Christ, our Redeemer. Grace and Love

[LoricaLady]

@StevieWonder501 However the Holy Spirit leads. Some folk aren't even concerned about the evolution issue one way or another. However, some won't listen to anything about Yeshua as long as they are sure that evolution is true. I have seen and read of scientists who came to faith when they saw that what they had been taught in school was contradicted by the facts of physics, statistical probabilities, whatever. Just a thought, perhaps you should be prepared for those for whom evo is the block.

[StevieWonder501]

@LoricaLady I certainly could prepare myself better in this way. The way I look at it, however, is just what you said - it's how the Holy Spirit leads.

Yes, I have heard the same from scientists. You and I know, however, that they didn't truly turn to the living Christ because of the inaccuracies in science, but truly because of conviction of sin in their hearts.

You can show them that evolution isn't true, and then they'll believe there's a God - but the true one must be believed in. -Grace

[LoricaLady]

@StevieWonder501 No, I think some scientists are not particularly thinking about sin when they see the creation and realize evolution isn't true and that the Bible is actually accurate. From there, of course, they have to go from head knowledge to the conviction of sin and acceptance of salvation. And yes, that comes about through the Holy Spirit working on their hearts.

"Even the demons believe and tremble".

[LoricaLady]

@StevieWonder501 Cont. And btw I've not bee trying to tell you how to teach Messiah to anyone. I've been trying to tell you that the Bible that tells us about Him is right and evolution is wrong. I've been trying to tell you that the evidence is on your side/

[inotaishu1]

@Dumbfoundedification I don't think about evolution different know but I admit that I just realized that I had walked into the trap that is "an expert says it so it must have value". I should have known better since I didn't agree with Dawkins on all accounts of what he wrote.^^

[GospelHouseKat]

The driving force behind evolution is RANDOM mutations ... without these chance events that "just happen" evolution doesn't happen. Miller is confused about this, somehow...?

[jingle3]

@GospelHouseKat

You are somewhat correct, only in that genetic mutations are random. The driving force of natural selection is not random. As Dr. Miller points out, it is a predictable mechanism which works to fill niches in the natural environment. The mutations provide the 'raw material ' which natural selection works on.

[Grant692]

It's so funny that on most of Ken Miller's videos, atheists are always praising him for his intelligence, saying he's a brilliant biologist, etc etc, and on this video they're like Nopenopenopenope

[hisham031170]

This man contradicted himself all the time. However, I'm tired of atheists claiming that religion is science stopper. There are many religious scientists who made great upheavals in science, such as Louis Pasteur, Copernicus, Ibnu Sina, Al Razi, etc. What stopped them? Religion? Atheists you all are so shallow.

[ClamCrunchy]

@hisham031170 Not all say that.

[FIGHTFANNERD3]

what made god and why would he make u ? at all try to answer that without sounding dumb

[thetraceur123]

@FIGHTFANNERD3 Smart guy... x) If God exist, he would by definition be uncaused. Because the concept of a First Cause is not a contingent being, but he would rather exist Necessarily, and therefore be uncaused. If God were "created" he would by definition not be God, which makes your question irrelevant.

[LoricaLady]

Cont. I have not yet seen all of this vid and will go through it systematically (unless I get Expelled, which has happened before). Meanwhile I saw him on YT, on the Colbert show, saying he was a Roman Catholic and that therefore he accepted that "Jesus is the Creator of all that is, seen and unseen." But...he gives workshops on The Collapse of Intelligent Design! How can Yeshua, aka, Jesus, create everything w/o i.d.?? 1st law of logic: 2 Contradictory statements cannot both be true Cont.

[thetraceur123]

@LoricaLady ID is not about whether God exists or not, but rather about Evolution. Evolution is true, and God exists. Live with it. It is not contradictionary in any sense.

[LoricaLady]

Cont. To this day his finches are hailed as examples of evolution because...he said so. Why? Because their beaks changed somewhat due to (as further observation showed) seasonal variations? Where is a shred of evidence, in the fossils or anywhere else, that shows finches ever have been or ever will be anything but finches? 0:17 Of course any belief system has huge consequences on society. Let's look at Miller's belief system and see if it is scientific or even logical. Cont.

[LoricaLady]

Right away we see that this video is not about science. It mentions The Origin of Species (orignally subtitled...And The Preservation of Favored Races, but that's not politcally correct any more). What Origin of Species did Darwin ever show? None whatsoever. He wasn't even a scientist. His degree was in theology. All he did was make some random observations on nature, and add a plethora of unsupported speculations that some actually think are science based! Cont.

[Valelacerte]

Miller strawmans Dawkins' position on "purpose" or "meaning" in life. Dawkins means there is no inherent purpose beyond survival; nothing to do with what purpose we choose for ourselves.

Miller refers to John F. Haught, a Roman Catholic theologian and Senior Research Fellow, and Francis Collins, a Christian and director of NIH, but you really should read these men's justifications for believing in God, there is no rigour in their reasoning and no explanation for what "God" is and how they know.

[Korkzor]

Interesting actually. I never knew there were thoughts as these floating around about theology.

[0theetruth0]

exactly

[HugNow]

@questionsamson the only god I can find in evolution is a careless god who doesn't give a shit, like some alien that made a mistake and exploded some crap into a certain section of his lab and is working on other stuff at the moment

[gloriousgod]

@HugNow I'm assuming you're thinking about all the evil that happens in this world, just because bad stuff happen doesn't mean God does it, and in the Bible it says God and Humans are separated due to spiritual sin

[prschuster]

The wisdom of Kenneth Miller lies in his ability to recognize the limitations of science and not let his faith suffer as a result, while he can still argue persuasively against iD theory which tries to incorporate religious ideas into science. Being able to make these fine distinctions is a rare quality.

[Crussy777]

His sense of humor is admirable too .

[HugNow]

@prschuster lies is right

[u2bMonkey]

Great video. Love Ken Miller.

[KPhysicsGeek]

Excelent video, thank you for posting it.

[naturalpreservation]

Newton, Asa Gray, Dobzhansky, Collins and Miller. It's not that people of faith can engage with science but they can be at the very coal face of discovery.

I think it's important to discriminate between 'kinds' of religion and/or creationism and some dogmatic positions in science.

Miller's comfortableness when he talks about either science or faith is not the sign of a person who is troubled by the contradiction. They are complimentary

"Science can't answer every question that needs answered"

[PaXx]

Kenneth miller is awesome. Of course he would have been more awesome if he were an atheist, but he's still awesome! :)

[hisham031170]

@PaXx You are awesome if you believe in God, not christian God, not Jew's God, but God the almighty.

[hugesinker]

Please tell me where I can find the rest of this great lecture?

[ArianRohani]

search for kenneth miller and it will come up a 2 hour long lecture. This whole lecture

[hugesinker]

I searched for it and only found a different 2-hour lecture about the School Board Trial.

Could you please sent me the link.

[pierresogol1]

Hey, a Mac!

[truckcompany]

This is awesome this clip! please dont delete it