"Which are the steps we need to be taking as humanists to bring better understanding between mainstream Americans and the Muslim community?"
"The only advice is the simple virtues, which everyone knows: education, organizing, interactions, interfaith groups, others. Just try to overcome the racism, the fears, the hostilities."
Chomsky's right that America is probably the most "afraid" and fearful major country ever....You can get to know an important early settler who was just the opposite---Thomas Morton of Merrymount---at AncientLights dot o-r-g
@37Dionysos australia and new zealand the same - whites are scared unhappy greedy bigoted soulless people generally - im white and 40 and just realizing how bad we are.
"First nation founded on individual rights." Even if I were to accept the notion that America was founded on individual rights (it wasn't in any kind of honest sense.) I still couldn't say that it was the first, anymore than I could say that it was the first democracy. They had individual rights and democracy inherent to the legal structures of Ancient Greece and Rome, and the Florentine Republic, among many other pre-American states. That you can know this and still say that is doublethink.
The quintessential messianic question of Judeo-Christianity--Who do you say I am? The Black Robes of Western Civilization more or less defined the American identity for Caucasians..
In Moby Dick (or The White Whale) by Herman Melville, the opening sentence establishes an immediate Judeo-Christian identity: Call me Ishmael.
In An American Nekia by Edward F. Edinger, a cosmopolitan national identity of and for an American catastrophic sense-ability is establish as a descent into the underworld.
MiddleEast ALWAYS at war! Mohammad violent SINFUL Murderer! Jesus Healed/Blessed/ Peace/Salvation/GOD! All MUSLIMS who converted to Christianity ARE HAPPY/FREE OF ABUSE/MISERY! Your leaders are killing you! All Christians LOVE YOU! PLEASE accept JESUS CHRIST as your SAVIOR! John 3:16 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him! PLEASE REBEL/ACCEPT JESUS! Be FREE of ISLAM LIES! Visit wlix radio.com
@qtutoringhelps I disagree. He is stating the truth as it has appeared to him in 80 odd years on this planet. And Americans are paranoid. They think everyone is out to get them, and the karma created from that has actually created that very reality now - the rest of the world usually isn't supportive of them now. It just shows that what your mind is consumed by will eventually consume your mind, and become who you are.
Paranoia does not get to the root of American identity. America was the first country in the history of the planet to be founded on the principle of individual rights, which he didn't even mention.
@qtutoringhelps I think it is the case that the American psyche loves to feed off having an enemy, real or imagined. Without that, the culture loses something. And their list of enemies is as big as they come - Native American Indians, Negro slaves, Hispanics, Canadians, Japanese, Nazi Germany, British, French, North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Soviet Union. It's like a drug that when you take it away, the person underneath loses themselves, their very identity.
@SuperTrancend Nobody's killing you. Chomsky's been indoctrinated into the leftist belief paradigm; his core is zionist. You fail to recognize, or maybe realize, that even the right is part of the greater leftist scheme.
@SuperTrancend He states, "9/11 happened". He buys into the fear. Why? Take a wild guess. Or better yet, look behind him and peruse his background. He's as red as a ripe tomato.
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Gay Lover,
I do not understand why this sucker professor was traveling across US with gay students and my guess is he hand-picked them. Worst part was quite shocking for me when I saw these gays in his company visiting into local mosques of Omaha NE. It seemed like he is enjoying ass banging.
This country is still stuffed with igorant xenophobic prejudice biggots who even after living in the 21st century still feel the same way their scared ancestors felt, frightened to death and calling for the extermination of whole peoples.
WRONG - every "country" is a country of immigrants, save Africa. History isn't so black & white. All strong civilizations throughout history protected their culture. Does the Great Wall of China ring any bells? Call them prejudiced, I'd call them smart. No people want to lose their country to a foreign culture. This is why Americans have "such a long, terrible history" of trying to protect their own culture from corporate sponsored invasions. It's called "being human", it's a rational response.
@brokencountry123 They say Africa, but the only reason for it is that the oldest reamins that has been found that is suggested to be our ancestors are there. There may come a day when they find some older remains elsewhere, or a find of the "missing link" someplace else. It's all knowledge in waiting to be definately affirmed.
@dyaakov Could you repost this question so it makes sense? Sorry, I know you are not a native english speaker, but I just can't understand what you are saying here...
Now, Chomsky, do I turn to thee, and mark my greeting well; for what I speak my body shall make good upon this earth, or my divine soul answer it in heaven. Thou art a traitor and a miscreant, too good to be so and too bad to live, since the more fair and crystal is the sky, the uglier seem the clouds that in it fly. Once more, the more to aggravate the note, with a foul traitor's name stuff I thy throat; and wish, ere I move, what my tongue speaks my right drawn sword may prove.
The "great" Woijtila didn't want even to meet archibishob Romero,nevertheless everybody loves that left wing catholic medieval called Wojityla and Romero is almost forgotten
I think the idea that Islam is hostile to American values is not paranoia but real. If Mr. Chomsky reads the teachings of Islam as revealed in the quran and hadith and compares it to the American constitution and bill of rights, he will find out that both are mutually exclusive. Furthermore,, he will find people all over the world invoking Islamic teaching for their terrorist deeds. The danger is real and fear is justified. This is no paranoia.
No you can't. Islam is hostile to anyone who is not a Muslim and calls upon Muslims to use jihad until everyone submits to Islamic rule (shariah law). Islam is not only a religion but also a political ideology, which is opposed to democracy and universal human rights.
"...reads the teachings of Islam as revealed in the quran and hadith and compares it to the American constitution and bill of rights, he will find out that both are mutually exclusive."
Read the Bible and compare to the American constitution and bill of rights, you will find that both are mutually exclusive..... lol
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I'm a lefty liberal, and I think that most of what Noam Chomsky says makes sense and is plausible, but he never offers documentation. He will recast the founding fathers as imperialist fear-mongers, he will retell the American myth as a tale of woe to make your jaw drop, he will question all your assumptions. He will not, however, offer PROOF. No documentation, no references. Because he brings no documentation to his arguments, we are left to accept him on face value, like a preacher.
Are you kidding? He talks constantly about how he has extensive documentation in all of his writings... If you are telling the same old story in service of power, then you can say whatever you want without any documentation whatsoever. But if you question assumptions in opposition of power, like Chomsky does, then the standards of proof are very high. Read any of his books and you will find references that number in the hundreds in one chapter.
@deprenyl absolutely! work from the left is documented much more heavily than from the right... i have read chomsky talk about this phenomenon actually...
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What Chomsky fails to mention is that it's only a melting pot for whites. I doubt that people of color will ever be completely integrated unless the whites are killed out...which I think will end up eventually happening.
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Most people of color (nearly all, in fact) who live in the US are at least about a quarter white. Your mind is deluded, my friend. What will happen when you kill the people who made this nation great? Your computer, the internet, cars, trains, etc. were all created by whites. You can thrash the "system" all you want, but you benefit from inventions of whites everyday; in short, unless you want to spend the rest of your life living in a mud hut without running water, you need us.
One friend alerted me to a discussion going on in Wikipedia on the neologism �Islamophobia�. Someone has suggested that this category should be deleted because the term Islamophobia is divisive, inflammatory and it is frequently used to inhibit very valid criticism of Islam.
(part2)This suggestion, of course, as it is to be expected, has been rejected by Muslims who have Islamized everything including Wikipedia. This friend asked my opinion. Here is what I think:
(part3)Islam is an ideology. Rejection of an ideology cannot be classified as phobia. To call the opponents of an ideology phobic is a fallacy. All ideologies have their critics and opponents but we do not hear Christians calling the critics of Christianity Christianophobe, communists calling their critics communitophobe or Hindus calling theirs hinduphobe. The term "Islamophobia" is both technically and logically incorrect and misleading.
Chomsky is an example of an intellectual who will believe anything that is said to hium as lon as it is candy-coated. For all his accomplishments he is doctrinaire and narrow-minded. Just watch him play the usual parlour game and ignore the real facts about Islam. I challenged him directly in 2001 at zmag and he couldn't respond.
OK , I'll take your diversionary bait and respond. Yes, I have and if you haven't noticed much of the OT is regarded by the vast majority of Jewish people nowadays as descriptive rather than prescriptive. It can be read allegorically unlike in Islam which views the Q'uran literally as God's spoken word. Most Jews and Christians view the OT and NT as what they are- collections of literature compiled by human beings- and hence not perfect. Get it? Or will you pull the Nile to the Euphrates claim?
do you deny its ultra-violence and fire & brimstone and wrath of a vengeful god?
And your claim about viewing allegorically is just plain not true, for one example there are countless Christians in the US who take it literally - what is the fundamentalist movement? And ditto for Jewish, who are all those people violently insistant on taking Palestinian land?
No doubt you will say they are in the minority, after all there are a billion Christians and how many few millions are Fundamentalist? A reasonable observation.
Kinda like Islam.
But you will absurdly argue that every last Muslim is a Wahhabist engaged at this very moment in Jihad against the christian/secular western white world.
(part1)What makes you think that I will automatically claim that the fundamentalists amongst Christians are a minority. Do you think that this is an ingrained reflexive action on my part or can you not understand that such an assessment can be arrived at from careful observation and research over the course of years? If you do then you are wrong and thats why you include the pithy little tag of absurd to your message.
Well, that's one way of getting out of the losing side of a debate By calling another's response as a "story". Allard you are renowned for distorting the respnses of others for your own ends. I mean just check out the comments box on your channel.
No, I see no use in arguing about your warped beliefs so instead dismiss and mock you.
As for comments they're all people who can't argue.
Take the most recent post for example: boskinator he began the 'debate' by accusing all Gentiles who disagree with Israels actions as being anti-Semites and any Jews who disagreed of being self-hating-Jews.
It was down hill from there. As each argument, more cruder and emotional than the last, was shot down he would become increasingly abusive, eventually resorting to sending people offensive private messages fill with all sorts of bile and invective.
For his finale he went through videos people had uploaded and spammed the comments, insulting the contents of the video (check my Love of Diagrams upload).
So if you feel you are in the company of this gentleman that is your right I suppose.
(part2)I'll post your private comment right here: "No, I see no use in arguing about your warped beliefs so instead dismiss and mock you.
As for comments they're all people who can't argue.
Take the most recent post for example: boskinator he began the 'debate' by accusing all Gentiles who disagree with Israels actions as being anti-Semites and any Jews who disagreed of being self-hating-Jews."
(part2)Saying that making such an analogy vis-à-vis Islam is reasonable is to ignore the layers of deceptive practices that are employed by Muslim preachers. Its a great way to short circuit a discussion in your favor but it wont work with me.
(part4)This makes up 80 per cent of all Muslims and what they are taught about Muhammad is usually from very false biographies of the Prophet and rarely from the Sunnah itself. This language barrier is the primary layer that most Muslims rarely ever discern.
(part 5)On the other hand, the literalist approach amongst Christian fundies is not fuelled by resorting to sources outside of the core texts of the NT and OT. IMHO, their methodology is skewered and based on a consumerist outlook that depends on quick fixes instead of patience.
(part6)Even so outside of the USA the percentage of fundamentalists amongst Christians lowers dramatically and probably corresponds with a societys level of social consciousness which is demonstrably lacking in some (not all) American right-wing circles.
(part7)You may not like that since it poses a paradox for your facile argument that Christian fundamenatalists and Islamic fundamentalists are the same but if you ever decide to be honest with yourself on this matter then you will have to face up to it.
Fundamentalist mentality is the same in all religions. Who in his sane mind would deny that? And furthermore there is small difference between religious fundamentalist mentality and political or other fundamentalisms, leading one to look for a more generalized explanation for the fenomenon.
Holding up one particular brand of fundamentalist and sayng "hey look, here are the really bad guys" are a sure sign of a fundamentalist of one of the other creeds in action.
Your "sane" mind will have to live with the fact that you have engaged in a faulty perception of Islam and how Muslim fundamentalists differ from fundamentalists of other ideologies. In fact, you are the one who is conflating Islam and it's implications by making the claim that pointing out the true nature of Islamic fundamentalism is tantamount to being fundamentalist. This simplistic approach is falling flat on it's face as time goes on and the atrocities pile up in the name of Allah.
"Atrocities pile up in the name of Allah", well thats the catchphrase of muslimhating fundamentalists in the west nowadays. Somehow those fanatics rarely stop to mention that the US, with its cristian fundamentalist rulers, is the perpetrators of at least 3 current wars of aggression against muslim countries. Want to speak of atrocities? What about the million dead in Iraq, results of the latest crusade for oil and "freedom"? What about US role in blocking any peace settlement in the middle east
Bugger off with your guffaws You are so NOT behind the eight ball. Did US troops kill over a million in Iraq? Not hardly. Maybe you should go tell the many victims of Islamic terror that it is all a mirage. Seven to eight years you might have had loads of other pseudo-leftists taking such a lurid stance but most of them are too embarrassed to keep up the slanderous charade. And what about Islam's role in teaching Muslims that Jews are to be exterminated? Can you answer that?
You know, turning up the volume of nastiness when you get cornered simply will not cut it. Rather it makes you look desperate and slightly fanatical. As does posting the same comments under two separate ID:s, whats up with you cultural warriors there, seems to happen more often than not?
To begin; i never wrote that the US troops, in and by themselves, killed that number of iraqis. As you well know, its the number of deaths attributed to the whole civil war that ensued after the illegal invasio
(...) n. Since you brought up "atrocities in the name of Allah", i thought it proper to bring you a reality check; the atrocities you get worked up over committed in the name of Islam really pale in comparison if we look at the atrocities that the christian world has committed, and keep committing. Somtimes the level of religious hyperbole borders on the talibanic, as it were in evangelist circles prior to the US invasion of Iraq. And as to Islam and jews, i doubt you know your case here either.
Its a well known fact that the muslim world treated jews a lot kinder than christians treated either jews or muslims. What to make of that? Islam makes special providence for the other two peoples "of the book", recognizing them to belong to the same general abrahamitic tradition. Well, the creation of Israel and its ensuing wars with its neighbours have raised animosity between jews and muslims, no doubt, but its a propagandistic distortion of reality, something youre good at, to attribute that
What to make of your contention that "muslim world treated jews a lot kinder than christians treated either jews or muslims"? I would have to say that you have uncritically accepted the hoax called the "Islamic Golden Age". In that, you are following in the footsteps of Chomsky.
(...) simply to religious teachings, just as the racism and hate on the jewish side towards arabs and muslims shouldnt be attributed only to religion.
What culture warriors like yourself always fail to adress are the real grievances underlying the conflict between the west and the arab world. That is of course convenient if one has no intention of ever righting the wrongs committed. For the rest of us, who really dont give much of a damn if the fundamentalists be cristian or muslim, as long as theyre far away from political power, trying to adress the issues creating fanatics and fundamentalism becomes all the more important.
Yet another try at slandering someone who criticizes Islam. The grievances set forth by Muslims are usually a set of excuses that hides the Islamic doctrines that they follow. Especially in regards to what they intend to do with Jews, Christians and pagans. Go ahead and whine about the wrongs of the European colonial era in the ME but then again what about the conquests of Islam? Did Muslims ever declare that over and done with? Not hardly. Go to faithfreedomdotorg and try that on them.
This is asinine. The point in bringing up the real grievances that underlie islamic fundamentalism and ferments it, like the Israel/Palestine-situation, the Iraq war, the machinations of western nations in the Midde east, is not to excuse or legitimize islam, or any ideology in particular for that matter.
Rather its a realisation that unjustice breeds hatred and fanaticism. Therefore, if one wants to eliminate the breeding grunds for fundamentalism, one should start by eliminating the
No it's not. You are deliberately ignoring the influence of Islamic doctrine on the behaviors of Muslims. Then you go on to evade my reference to Islamic conquests and the fact that no Muslims have ever addressed the question of whether or not they have dropped the sword or even apologized for the huge amounts of conquests and slaughters done in the name of Allah. Instead you insist that all the things you listed are the "real grievances" but can't accept that Islam has anything to do with it.
hehe, what is this? I "evade" questions that you did not pose? Where did yu make those silly statements that you accuse me of evading?
Im not "deliberately ignoring" things as much as choosing not to indulge in your particular fetisch for muslim baiting. Obviously you would love to make the point over and over that muslim fundamentalists are so much worse than others, trademark of the islamophobe. But lets not even go there. For once, how would it be if you tried to remain on the ground?
How about taking this to FFI? We can go over old ground and make our cases clear. Or have you ignored my message? C'mon How about it? Or are you too scared to take me on in a slightly different format?
And actually, you are the one indulging on "baiting" with your hysterical accusations. Not me. If you really had an argument that was based on the facts you wouldn't resort to such cheap slanders. Especially worn out ones.
Look mate, youre really not making yourself a favour by one minute doing all the dirty tricks in the book, and the next playing the victim of my supposed "slander". Be prepared to take what you dish out, or learn to behave better.
Ive already told you that i see no reason to change to that website. But you are free to send me mails, if you feel to constricted by this format.
(part1)I'm not performing any "dirty tricks" and anyone reading these exchanges who possess any honesty and integrity can see that it is you, in fact, who resorts to slander by calling me a "hater" (old one that is). You are scared of open debate in a text format that allows for well thought out and prepared responses. Your silly command to "behave better" is so authoritarian and desperate that is speaks volumes.
Well sure, lets just leave it at that, anyone reading these exchanges can judge for themselves. But i repeat; it does you little credit that you dish it out, but cant take it when given.
And i see little point in you hacking at the fact that i choose to debate you here and not on some website with a raging bias of your choosing. What i do with my time on the internet is not for you to decide.
BTW, who were those left intellectuals sponsored by Saudi Arabia and the Oil business? Im dying to kn
(part2)And then you prefer emails instead of open debate after actually saying you agree with me about the issue of concision. Is that any way of having an open debate over the issues we have gone over? In fact, your role in all this is absolutely hypocritical and it follows the same basic formula so many crude Marxists take and that is to make personal attacks ad nauseam. Staffan. . . . you are a liar and an evasive one at that who uses insults to camouflage the fact that you are in the wrong.
Come on know, you are getting parodical. I cannot imegine a more open debate forum than this, where not even membership is required. And nice touch there, first calling me "hipocrite" and "evasive liar" and then accusing me of "using insults".
Small wonder that i cannot be bothered to go anywhere with you for added debating. You just dont put up an interesting enough argument. After all, my own person is not the subject for debate here. And neither is the forum in itself.
Finding some common point of wiew with hatemongers is a tricky business. But lets agree that all fundamentalism is a bad thing. I need not rate the various breeds, as fundamentalist mentality is strikingly similar everywhere. The question then becomes, how to prevent more fundamentalists of all breeds to come into place? There you still has not bothered to offer any explanation. Not surprisingly, as, any discussion of real causes of fanaticism is counterproductive to your purpose.
Ive posed already my solution to the problem that we supposedly agree on; a total reorientatioon of western policies towards muslim coutries, since obviously these policies have produced a fertile breeding ground for fanatics. You fail to admit that the fact that the US is currently waging war on three muslim nations, whereas no muslim nation is waging war on the west, breed fundamentalism. You fail to admit that Israeli occupation of Palestine breed fanaticism. You fail to admit that western
(...) colonial practies have played a part in creating resentment towards us in the muslim world. And then you go on to tell me how very well researched you are on the subject of muslim fundamentalism. It could actually be funny. But its not, really. Just tragic.
(...) festering conflicts. The fact that you so readily dismiss what all serious people recognize as the primus motor in islamic fundamentalism goes a long way to expose your true motivations here. Youre not in the slightest concerned about the real people suffering in these conflicts, where religious fundamentalism plays a part. Rather youre in the business of the fundamentalist culture warrior, out to fan the flames of religious intolerance and hatred towards muslims. If not, maybe you can
Just who are these "serious people"? Are they academics who espouse ostensiby leftwing views but are more than amply financed by Saudi Arabia and the oil industry? You bet. They are the driving force in the self-defeating policies that Republican and Democratic administrations have consistently upheld for more than fifty years. The name of that game is to not even mention the role of Islam in all of this and instead look at the issues you mentioned and never Islam.
Oh, its getting better and better. Who are these suspect individuals, "financed by Saudi-Arabia and the oil industry"?
Again you manage to be selfdefeating in your argumentation. What really is totally absent from the public discourse in the US and in grand part of Europe, is the mention of the historical context for this confrontation between west and arab interest. Not surprisingly, jhow could we talk openly about this, and still be able to look ourselves in the mirror?
(part1)If you want to selectively ignore the role of Saudi and oil industry financing in Western academia then go ahead and ignore such books as Martin Kramer's HEADS IN THE SAND. There is nothing self-defeating in this line of argumentation and plenty of other sources attest to this state of affairs whether you like it or not. Do want to deny that such financial transactions have taken place? Then post some counter-evidence.
Its a bit comical to demand counterevidence without first having produced some evidence, dont you believe? You claimed that left intellectuals had received money from Saudi Arabia and the oil industry. I asked you who you were accusing. You still havent answered. So what am i supposed to disprove?
(part2)Your take on what is missing from the public discourse is also very false. In fact, the prevailing tone in the public discourse leans heavily to making mention of the colonial era of the 1700s to the mid 1900's ad nauseam. Very little is mentioned of the enormity of the Islamic slave trade, the Islamic conquests, and the atrocities done in order to bring entire subject populations into complete submission.
Well, it would be terrific if you actually were not lying here, but had it right for once. But its embarassingly obvious that you are. True, islamic slave trade or supposed islamic conquests are not up for debate every day either. But maybe thats not too unreasonable, considering that the boot of colonialism still rests heavily on the middle east. And all of the arab world for that matter. I fail to see arab nations manipulating events in Europe similar to what we have done there.
(part1)Yet another attempt at slander! And what "boot of colonialism" are you talking about? Are the oil companies still exclusively owned by Europeans and Americans anymore?
(part2)Just taking a look at the management and who owns the shares in those firms should tell us that this is a mutinational, multiracial affair and if there is a "boot of colonialism" it can't be solely the fault of Europeans and Americans. Somehow you have very little knowledge of how the oil industry operates since you fail to mention OPEC but instead "fail to see arab nations manipulating events in Europe similar to what we have done there".
(part3)Give the chance they would and if you think they won't then you simply are not facing reality. Either way that is how capitalism sucks the world dry and they are as desperate as your kind in keeping the issue of Islam to a minimum. You are a tool but a tool in denial.
I fail to see muslim nations waging war on the west, as we have done to them now for a long time. I fail to see direct muslim occupation of western nations, as we are occupying them. I fail to see etnic cleansing committed by muslims against westerners. Still, you would rather that the media discussed islams historical conquests than atrocities comitted today by us against them. Of course you do. Reality is inconvenient for someone with your agenda.
(part3)Does mainstream society even take into consideration the piracy of Muslims in the past? Does the very real fact that these slavers raided as far as Iceland and England to kidnap entire coastal villages get mentioned? Does the issue of how the Serbs, Greeks and others were treated under Muslim rule get taken seriously? How about the Muslim conquest of India? Is that even a subject that you have any familiarity with?
Haha, funny you shoudl bring that up, since we get forcefed news about somali pirates daily.
But tell me, not validating any of your claims of what muslims allegedly have done, since i dont trust anyone foaming at the mouth with getting their facts straight, why exactyl should media dwell extensively on islamic history, when there are actual atrocities committed today, every day, by us against them? And should it then also dwell daily of our own history of colonialism and genocidal barbarism?
(part4)How about the bullying efforts of Muslims to make sure their ideological obligations are taken care of over that of indigenous populations? Do the activities of Muslims in organized crime on a global scale ever really get talked about and examined in the public discourse? Do the honor-killings that take place ever get recognized by leftists in regards to the political economy underlying that grotesque phenomenon?
How about you stop resorting to lies in your hatemongering?
As anyone that studied islam even a little knows, honour killing is actually a condemned by the religion, a cultural phenomenon practised in certain countries that also practice islam.
I think you have said enough now. When you claim that honour killing belongs to islam tradition, you reveal yourself (as if that had not been clear before) to be just the lowest case of hatemongerer, not even bothering to adjust the message to reality when its held up before your eyes as evidence. Anyone interested in the subject can look it up easily and prove what a fraud you are. And i should really stop wasting my time on debating someone that has no honour, and only debates to spread lies
(part2)"Ali reported the Prophet saying: 'Women have ten ('awrah). When she gets married, the husband covers one, and when she dies the grave covers the ten." [1]
What is awrah? The Encyclopedia of Islam defines 'awrah as pudendum, that is the external genitals, especially of the female. Pudendum derives from the Latin pudor which means sense of shame and modesty. So awrah signify an object of shame that needs to be covered. [2]
(part3)According to the following Hadith, women not only have ten 'awrah, but the woman herself is perceived as 'awrah:
"The woman is 'awrah. When she goes outside (the house), the devil welcomes her." [3]
If a woman loses her awrah by e.g. through rape, she becomes the object of shame for her family and the only way to remove that shame and restore the honor is to remove that defiled woman.
(part4)So you can say honor killing is cultural, but it is a culture that is deeply rooted in Islamic mindset and derives from it. It is practiced in all Islamic countries. The more religious is a country, the more is widespread the honor killing.
Women are asked to; �stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display� Quran 33.33
(part5)A woman who transgresses these orders becomes the source of shame to her family. She will not be marriageable, she and her family become the object of gossip of everyone. The entire family can lose prestige. No one would give a daughter to the brothers of that girl in marriage and no one would marry her sisters.
(part6)The family and even the extended family are maligned and become outcasts. This can only stop if the family cleanses that stain with blood. The woman thus defiled must be sacrificed even if she is a victim of rape.
(part7)But you don�t have to be raped to become an exposed awrah and bring shame to your family. If you disobey your father who has consented that you marry a certain person you dishonor him. If you escape from your home for any reason including abuse, you have brought shame to your family and you could be haunted by your own brothers or even your mother and killed.
(part8)If you reject a suitor, his pride can be injured and he may feel the urge to throw acid at your face to avenge and restore his honor.
If you are a female you have to remember that you have brought shame and disgrace to your father and everyone else in your family the day you were born and you must cover this shame, You are awrah, a pudendum, something to be ashamed of, something to hide. When you go to your husband�s house, your parents can breathe a sigh of relief.
Are you discussing islam or despicable cultural practices not sanctioned by the religion? Countriesd practicing honour killing have also christian populations. What about them?
You obviously try to muddle the border, again to suit your hatemongering interest. Honour killing has no place within islam and is condemned by the religion, not sanctioned.
The fact that you tried to pass that little bit of misinformation off as truth really concludes the debate.
Ive spent too much of my time already on refuting your inanities. I know the routine by now. Islamophobia is not refuted by arguing with its fanatical devotees on the net, but by human interaction in the real world.
BTW, you know that christianity propagates homosexuality? Well, not quite, since it really calls for homosexuals to die. But since its a widespread phenomena in christian societies, and - woe - is not punished AT ALL in the christian courts, we can suppose that it is in fact a
Inanities? That's one way of making up an excuse when you show how shallow your arguments are. As for your charge of Islamophobia? Islamophobia is Ad-Hominem but you can't face that hard truth and human interaction is something your kind want to dominate not partake in. The bit about Christianity is tu-quocque and so typical and actually quite irrelevant since I'm agnostic. Now come on over to faithfreedomdotorg. I have a debate thread waiting for you.
(part9)But from there on you become the awrah of your husband. Only the grave will cover all the shame that you have brought to this world. But as long as you are alive, it is your religious duty to be modest and cover this shame and not disgrace your qayyuums (male guardians). Your male kin, (father, brothers, husband, sons and even uncles) are your qayyuums and you are their awrah.
(part10)If you make a dazzling display of yourself, the honor of all these "honorable" male relatives is injured and all of them have a right to burry you to restore their honor.
Muslim men have very low self esteem but they compensate the smallness of their selfhood by inflating their ego. If you are a women related to them, they feel as if they own you. Whatever you do affects their gigantic ego. They are possessive and feel dishonored if you make a "dazzling display" of yourself.
"Christian men have very low self esteem, but they compensate the smallness of their selfhood by inflating their ego. If you are a woman related to them, they feel as if they own you. Whatever you do affects your gigantic ego. They are possesive and feel dishonoured if you make a "dazzling display" of yourself."
(part11)And of course if you are deflowered, this is an affront to their humongous pride. The damage is irreparable and the only way to restore that pride is to get rid of you.
Honor killing is theoretically against the law in all Islamic countries, but generally the sentences are light. Often they are a year of jail or only a few months.
(part12)The judges are very "understanding" and sympathize with the killers who are also grieving for the loss of their loved one. Most likely the Judges would do the same in similar situations. Everyone agrees that this is a very unfortunate situation that has no other solution but taking the life of the poor girl. Often the brothers and the parents hug the lifeless cadaver of their victim and cry bitterly after stabbing her to death or strangulating her.
(part13)They don't listen to her pleading and begging to spare her life, but sure they cry profusely for her after they kill her.
On the bright side, if you survive all this, manage to go to your husband�s house and bear him sons, you are set. From there on, and proportionate to the number of sons that you have brought to this world, you gain prestige and respect.
(part14)Maybe by the time you are a middle aged woman, your sons are strong and your husband is a crippling old man, you can even bang on his head and insult him to the delight of your heart. But you must have your sons on your side to stand behind you at all times. This is a delicate political maneuver that you have to plan for from early on.
(part15)Then you can be the despot and your aging hubby becomes your vassal. Alas only a few women can savor this sweet taste of success. But those who do it, do it very well.
Oh well, Allah's "Grace is (entirely) in His Hand, to bestow it on whomsoever He wills". Quran 57:29
[1] Kanz-el-'Ummal, Vol. 22, Hadith No. 858. See also Ihy'a
[2] Latin pudendum (literally) a thing to be ashamed of
@SuperSamuel972
He does mention African-Americans.. Maybe watch the entire interview before dismissing it.
ChrisnSnoop 3 weeks ago
What's the song at the start?
Incognitoification1 1 month ago
Chomsky is once again, spot on in his views and insights! One day, "mankind" will move forward. :) Cheers!!
sawzaw203 2 months ago
"Which are the steps we need to be taking as humanists to bring better understanding between mainstream Americans and the Muslim community?"
"The only advice is the simple virtues, which everyone knows: education, organizing, interactions, interfaith groups, others. Just try to overcome the racism, the fears, the hostilities."
rebelinfant 3 months ago
hate to lower the tone with such a trivial question on a Chomsky video, but what is the music at the start and finish?
Paul1979RUFC 3 months ago
Hot chick in the background. Yes, yes, and......yes.
MaxwellGreene1 4 months ago
@MaxwellGreene1 She's not hot, loser.
testiclecrusher2 4 months ago
It's funny how people on youtube argue over what Chomsky says. Go to school or college or better yet university. Have a debate there.
VVillowz 5 months ago 3
is there an uncut version?
frasian78 6 months ago
@babayabadabadu It was your idea....
talk2meBabe 7 months ago
@babayabadabadu Sure, go ahead.... I don't care
talk2meBabe 7 months ago
hes hefners older brother
talk2meBabe 8 months ago
The guy asking the question needs to learn some manners, cutting off Noam...
Devon64327 8 months ago
@Devon64327
he only cut him off once
ahmed337799 8 months ago
Chomsky's right that America is probably the most "afraid" and fearful major country ever....You can get to know an important early settler who was just the opposite---Thomas Morton of Merrymount---at AncientLights dot o-r-g
37Dionysos 8 months ago
@37Dionysos australia and new zealand the same - whites are scared unhappy greedy bigoted soulless people generally - im white and 40 and just realizing how bad we are.
BiggerThinking1 7 months ago
"First nation founded on individual rights." Even if I were to accept the notion that America was founded on individual rights (it wasn't in any kind of honest sense.) I still couldn't say that it was the first, anymore than I could say that it was the first democracy. They had individual rights and democracy inherent to the legal structures of Ancient Greece and Rome, and the Florentine Republic, among many other pre-American states. That you can know this and still say that is doublethink.
cogitheum 9 months ago
The quintessential messianic question of Judeo-Christianity--Who do you say I am? The Black Robes of Western Civilization more or less defined the American identity for Caucasians..
In Moby Dick (or The White Whale) by Herman Melville, the opening sentence establishes an immediate Judeo-Christian identity: Call me Ishmael.
In An American Nekia by Edward F. Edinger, a cosmopolitan national identity of and for an American catastrophic sense-ability is establish as a descent into the underworld.
spiritech999 9 months ago
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tigersforchrist 10 months ago
very simple and easy to understand the identity of an american ,you just have to be open minded and understand what mr Chomsky says about it.
vrs195927 10 months ago
This guy is seething with hatred, through and through, of America.
qtutoringhelps 10 months ago
@qtutoringhelps I disagree. He is stating the truth as it has appeared to him in 80 odd years on this planet. And Americans are paranoid. They think everyone is out to get them, and the karma created from that has actually created that very reality now - the rest of the world usually isn't supportive of them now. It just shows that what your mind is consumed by will eventually consume your mind, and become who you are.
avidalocan 10 months ago
@avidalocan
Paranoia does not get to the root of American identity. America was the first country in the history of the planet to be founded on the principle of individual rights, which he didn't even mention.
qtutoringhelps 10 months ago
@qtutoringhelps I think it is the case that the American psyche loves to feed off having an enemy, real or imagined. Without that, the culture loses something. And their list of enemies is as big as they come - Native American Indians, Negro slaves, Hispanics, Canadians, Japanese, Nazi Germany, British, French, North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Soviet Union. It's like a drug that when you take it away, the person underneath loses themselves, their very identity.
avidalocan 10 months ago
@qtutoringhelps
No,he he is not at all.He loves the U.S.A.You're just incredibly stupid!
iggypopbowie77 9 months ago
Please post more of this discussion if possible thank you for this much :D
shanyin1234 10 months ago
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Noam Chomsky... - White, sexist patriarch - War profiteer - Stock market speculator - Tax evader - Trust fund elitist - Treasonous back stabber - Communist apologist - Pentagon contractor - Hypocrite par excellence - Fake phony fraud
lakeeriejew 11 months ago
Someone fire the sound editor of this movie. Playing The Standells is not a really a great backdrop to crusty intellectuals.
Savorist 11 months ago 2
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post the whole video. Please. Thanks.
BARCACROSSESTHEALPS 11 months ago
Americans need to be exploited to fear and loathe an enemy.
Otherwise varied aspects of this country dont work.
MultiSmartass1 11 months ago
Chomsky's not an idiot. He knows 9/11 was the work of Israel. And he's on their team.
khavarian 11 months ago
@khavarian you're killing me XD no really you're killing me -.-\
SuperTrancend 11 months ago
@SuperTrancend Nobody's killing you. Chomsky's been indoctrinated into the leftist belief paradigm; his core is zionist. You fail to recognize, or maybe realize, that even the right is part of the greater leftist scheme.
khavarian 11 months ago
@khavarian LOL k
SuperTrancend 11 months ago
@SuperTrancend He states, "9/11 happened". He buys into the fear. Why? Take a wild guess. Or better yet, look behind him and peruse his background. He's as red as a ripe tomato.
khavarian 11 months ago
@khavarian are you like reading verbatim from some leave it to beaver guide to spotting a pinko or something?
SuperTrancend 11 months ago
@SuperTrancend Ward & Jane's pocket-sized field manual......
khavarian 11 months ago
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Gay Lover,
I do not understand why this sucker professor was traveling across US with gay students and my guess is he hand-picked them. Worst part was quite shocking for me when I saw these gays in his company visiting into local mosques of Omaha NE. It seemed like he is enjoying ass banging.
Gaando01 1 year ago
Shame the interview is edited
Tyrfingr 1 year ago
Comment removed
cnotemorello 1 year ago
Chomsky? A true intellectual. A real human-being. A messenger of truth and channel of virtue.
paz/peace/salam/shalom
translationwiz 1 year ago 2
Professor Akbar Ahmed is familiar, his voice and face look very familiar, but I can't think of where I've seen him before.
MikhailSilverwood 1 year ago
@MikhailSilverwood a recent appearance on the daily show maybe..he talked about this very project.
dontliethetruth 1 year ago
This country is still stuffed with igorant xenophobic prejudice biggots who even after living in the 21st century still feel the same way their scared ancestors felt, frightened to death and calling for the extermination of whole peoples.
knowthetruth1492 1 year ago 5
WRONG - every "country" is a country of immigrants, save Africa. History isn't so black & white. All strong civilizations throughout history protected their culture. Does the Great Wall of China ring any bells? Call them prejudiced, I'd call them smart. No people want to lose their country to a foreign culture. This is why Americans have "such a long, terrible history" of trying to protect their own culture from corporate sponsored invasions. It's called "being human", it's a rational response.
brokencountry123 1 year ago
@brokencountry123 They say Africa, but the only reason for it is that the oldest reamins that has been found that is suggested to be our ancestors are there. There may come a day when they find some older remains elsewhere, or a find of the "missing link" someplace else. It's all knowledge in waiting to be definately affirmed.
Tyrfingr 1 year ago
@brokencountry123 what culture want americans to preserve??
dyaakov 1 year ago
@dyaakov Could you repost this question so it makes sense? Sorry, I know you are not a native english speaker, but I just can't understand what you are saying here...
BARCACROSSESTHEALPS 11 months ago
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Now, Chomsky, do I turn to thee, and mark my greeting well; for what I speak my body shall make good upon this earth, or my divine soul answer it in heaven. Thou art a traitor and a miscreant, too good to be so and too bad to live, since the more fair and crystal is the sky, the uglier seem the clouds that in it fly. Once more, the more to aggravate the note, with a foul traitor's name stuff I thy throat; and wish, ere I move, what my tongue speaks my right drawn sword may prove.
GreatGrumbledook 1 year ago
America has no identity.
SuddenCatharsis 1 year ago
All I have to say is, Education is key.
Modernremix 1 year ago
That bitch in the back could get it.
passiveMenis 2 years ago
@passiveMenis id tapp that
mythicronus 1 year ago
it drives me when people call Noam a self-hating jew because he calls Isreal's policy toward palestine what it is...Terrorism...
He does the same towards palestine...
montysurfs 2 years ago
@montysurfs, it's not self hating... it's called being mature and seeing things like they are even if you dont like it...
Darusdei 2 years ago
word
montysurfs 2 years ago
That's a great point! I feel exactly the same way.
TheLeftLibertarian 2 years ago
WOLVERINES!!!!!!
thirtyeightpeas 2 years ago 2
Wolverine has got sexy choppers at least, better than Sartre's anyway.
bewaver 2 years ago
Does anyone know what Jack London writing Noam's talking about?
JasonMelancon 2 years ago
The "great" Woijtila didn't want even to meet archibishob Romero,nevertheless everybody loves that left wing catholic medieval called Wojityla and Romero is almost forgotten
Giovannisenzaterra 2 years ago
blah blah blah
noam owns everyone right on the face like michael fucking jordan of social and political science
juanpolar 2 years ago 2
I think the idea that Islam is hostile to American values is not paranoia but real. If Mr. Chomsky reads the teachings of Islam as revealed in the quran and hadith and compares it to the American constitution and bill of rights, he will find out that both are mutually exclusive. Furthermore,, he will find people all over the world invoking Islamic teaching for their terrorist deeds. The danger is real and fear is justified. This is no paranoia.
bhigr 2 years ago
Paradoxically, one can just as easily say American "values" are hostile to everyone.
BayerLexan 2 years ago
No you can't. Islam is hostile to anyone who is not a Muslim and calls upon Muslims to use jihad until everyone submits to Islamic rule (shariah law). Islam is not only a religion but also a political ideology, which is opposed to democracy and universal human rights.
bhigr 2 years ago
Unlike the Jews in the Settlements, they just want to invite everyone over for afternoon tea and philosophical discussions.
KentAllard 2 years ago 3
Why should they be lenient with terrorists?
XxxNuMbxxX0301 2 years ago
Read my comment, Wolverine should get Sartre's dentist to fix his choppers.
bewaver 2 years ago
@bhigr
"...reads the teachings of Islam as revealed in the quran and hadith and compares it to the American constitution and bill of rights, he will find out that both are mutually exclusive."
Read the Bible and compare to the American constitution and bill of rights, you will find that both are mutually exclusive..... lol
PavedStones 2 years ago
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I'm a lefty liberal, and I think that most of what Noam Chomsky says makes sense and is plausible, but he never offers documentation. He will recast the founding fathers as imperialist fear-mongers, he will retell the American myth as a tale of woe to make your jaw drop, he will question all your assumptions. He will not, however, offer PROOF. No documentation, no references. Because he brings no documentation to his arguments, we are left to accept him on face value, like a preacher.
cellovid 2 years ago
Are you kidding? He talks constantly about how he has extensive documentation in all of his writings... If you are telling the same old story in service of power, then you can say whatever you want without any documentation whatsoever. But if you question assumptions in opposition of power, like Chomsky does, then the standards of proof are very high. Read any of his books and you will find references that number in the hundreds in one chapter.
phanerothyme1 2 years ago 40
Yeah "lack of documentation" and "Chomsky" in the same sentence = FAIL.
deprenyl 2 years ago 42
@deprenyl
Yes, loads of documentation all adding up to rationalistic assertions.
WarVideo 8 months ago
@deprenyl absolutely! work from the left is documented much more heavily than from the right... i have read chomsky talk about this phenomenon actually...
mcshobe2008 7 months ago
To say Noam Chomsky doesn't document his work is ludicrous. Pick up one of his books. You'll see voluminous documentation.
bapyou 2 years ago 9
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What Chomsky fails to mention is that it's only a melting pot for whites. I doubt that people of color will ever be completely integrated unless the whites are killed out...which I think will end up eventually happening.
TheOtherView 2 years ago
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Most people of color (nearly all, in fact) who live in the US are at least about a quarter white. Your mind is deluded, my friend. What will happen when you kill the people who made this nation great? Your computer, the internet, cars, trains, etc. were all created by whites. You can thrash the "system" all you want, but you benefit from inventions of whites everyday; in short, unless you want to spend the rest of your life living in a mud hut without running water, you need us.
FightDPower 2 years ago
No one needs you, you're expendable
martin31406 2 years ago
Do we need your supercilious attitude as well?
bapyou 2 years ago
Chomsky on Islam???
He said nothing on Islam. Bat title
momin8888 2 years ago
That's why they finally changed the title. LOL
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part)1"Islamophobia" is ad hominem
By Ali Sina
2006/05/26
One friend alerted me to a discussion going on in Wikipedia on the neologism �Islamophobia�. Someone has suggested that this category should be deleted because the term Islamophobia is divisive, inflammatory and it is frequently used to inhibit very valid criticism of Islam.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part2)This suggestion, of course, as it is to be expected, has been rejected by Muslims who have Islamized everything including Wikipedia. This friend asked my opinion. Here is what I think:
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part3)Islam is an ideology. Rejection of an ideology cannot be classified as phobia. To call the opponents of an ideology phobic is a fallacy. All ideologies have their critics and opponents but we do not hear Christians calling the critics of Christianity Christianophobe, communists calling their critics communitophobe or Hindus calling theirs hinduphobe. The term "Islamophobia" is both technically and logically incorrect and misleading.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
"high school boys hiding in the mountains defending us from the Russians"
Red Dawn!
KentAllard 2 years ago 2
that level security to exist requires that level of fear
KentAllard 2 years ago
Gloriously Long live Professor Chomsky !
10bytens 2 years ago
Chomsky is an example of an intellectual who will believe anything that is said to hium as lon as it is candy-coated. For all his accomplishments he is doctrinaire and narrow-minded. Just watch him play the usual parlour game and ignore the real facts about Islam. I challenged him directly in 2001 at zmag and he couldn't respond.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
you ever read the old testament?
KentAllard 2 years ago
OK , I'll take your diversionary bait and respond. Yes, I have and if you haven't noticed much of the OT is regarded by the vast majority of Jewish people nowadays as descriptive rather than prescriptive. It can be read allegorically unlike in Islam which views the Q'uran literally as God's spoken word. Most Jews and Christians view the OT and NT as what they are- collections of literature compiled by human beings- and hence not perfect. Get it? Or will you pull the Nile to the Euphrates claim?
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
do you deny its ultra-violence and fire & brimstone and wrath of a vengeful god?
And your claim about viewing allegorically is just plain not true, for one example there are countless Christians in the US who take it literally - what is the fundamentalist movement? And ditto for Jewish, who are all those people violently insistant on taking Palestinian land?
KentAllard 2 years ago
No doubt you will say they are in the minority, after all there are a billion Christians and how many few millions are Fundamentalist? A reasonable observation.
Kinda like Islam.
But you will absurdly argue that every last Muslim is a Wahhabist engaged at this very moment in Jihad against the christian/secular western white world.
KentAllard 2 years ago
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AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part1)What makes you think that I will automatically claim that the fundamentalists amongst Christians are a minority. Do you think that this is an ingrained reflexive action on my part or can you not understand that such an assessment can be arrived at from careful observation and research over the course of years? If you do then you are wrong and thats why you include the pithy little tag of absurd to your message.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
regarding all parts: Cool Story Bro.
KentAllard 2 years ago
Well, that's one way of getting out of the losing side of a debate By calling another's response as a "story". Allard you are renowned for distorting the respnses of others for your own ends. I mean just check out the comments box on your channel.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
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KentAllard 2 years ago
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KentAllard 2 years ago
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KentAllard 2 years ago
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No, I see no use in arguing about your warped beliefs so instead dismiss and mock you.
As for comments they're all people who can't argue.
Take the most recent post for example: boskinator he began the 'debate' by accusing all Gentiles who disagree with Israels actions as being anti-Semites and any Jews who disagreed of being self-hating-Jews.
KentAllard 2 years ago
It was down hill from there. As each argument, more cruder and emotional than the last, was shot down he would become increasingly abusive, eventually resorting to sending people offensive private messages fill with all sorts of bile and invective.
For his finale he went through videos people had uploaded and spammed the comments, insulting the contents of the video (check my Love of Diagrams upload).
So if you feel you are in the company of this gentleman that is your right I suppose.
KentAllard 2 years ago
btw, I haven't read a single one of your dozens of posts that contain your silly dissertation.
KentAllard 2 years ago
(part1)So KentAllard you send private comments and I bet it's because you cannot handle an invite to a debate at faithfreedomdotorg. How about it?
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part2)I'll post your private comment right here: "No, I see no use in arguing about your warped beliefs so instead dismiss and mock you.
As for comments they're all people who can't argue.
Take the most recent post for example: boskinator he began the 'debate' by accusing all Gentiles who disagree with Israels actions as being anti-Semites and any Jews who disagreed of being self-hating-Jews."
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
pitiable.
hotstixx 2 years ago
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(part2)Saying that making such an analogy vis-à-vis Islam is reasonable is to ignore the layers of deceptive practices that are employed by Muslim preachers. Its a great way to short circuit a discussion in your favor but it wont work with me.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part4)This makes up 80 per cent of all Muslims and what they are taught about Muhammad is usually from very false biographies of the Prophet and rarely from the Sunnah itself. This language barrier is the primary layer that most Muslims rarely ever discern.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part 5)On the other hand, the literalist approach amongst Christian fundies is not fuelled by resorting to sources outside of the core texts of the NT and OT. IMHO, their methodology is skewered and based on a consumerist outlook that depends on quick fixes instead of patience.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part6)Even so outside of the USA the percentage of fundamentalists amongst Christians lowers dramatically and probably corresponds with a societys level of social consciousness which is demonstrably lacking in some (not all) American right-wing circles.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part7)You may not like that since it poses a paradox for your facile argument that Christian fundamenatalists and Islamic fundamentalists are the same but if you ever decide to be honest with yourself on this matter then you will have to face up to it.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
Fundamentalist mentality is the same in all religions. Who in his sane mind would deny that? And furthermore there is small difference between religious fundamentalist mentality and political or other fundamentalisms, leading one to look for a more generalized explanation for the fenomenon.
Holding up one particular brand of fundamentalist and sayng "hey look, here are the really bad guys" are a sure sign of a fundamentalist of one of the other creeds in action.
staffanwest 2 years ago
Your "sane" mind will have to live with the fact that you have engaged in a faulty perception of Islam and how Muslim fundamentalists differ from fundamentalists of other ideologies. In fact, you are the one who is conflating Islam and it's implications by making the claim that pointing out the true nature of Islamic fundamentalism is tantamount to being fundamentalist. This simplistic approach is falling flat on it's face as time goes on and the atrocities pile up in the name of Allah.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
"Atrocities pile up in the name of Allah", well thats the catchphrase of muslimhating fundamentalists in the west nowadays. Somehow those fanatics rarely stop to mention that the US, with its cristian fundamentalist rulers, is the perpetrators of at least 3 current wars of aggression against muslim countries. Want to speak of atrocities? What about the million dead in Iraq, results of the latest crusade for oil and "freedom"? What about US role in blocking any peace settlement in the middle east
staffanwest 2 years ago
Bugger off with your guffaws You are so NOT behind the eight ball. Did US troops kill over a million in Iraq? Not hardly. Maybe you should go tell the many victims of Islamic terror that it is all a mirage. Seven to eight years you might have had loads of other pseudo-leftists taking such a lurid stance but most of them are too embarrassed to keep up the slanderous charade. And what about Islam's role in teaching Muslims that Jews are to be exterminated? Can you answer that?
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
You know, turning up the volume of nastiness when you get cornered simply will not cut it. Rather it makes you look desperate and slightly fanatical. As does posting the same comments under two separate ID:s, whats up with you cultural warriors there, seems to happen more often than not?
To begin; i never wrote that the US troops, in and by themselves, killed that number of iraqis. As you well know, its the number of deaths attributed to the whole civil war that ensued after the illegal invasio
staffanwest 2 years ago
(...) n. Since you brought up "atrocities in the name of Allah", i thought it proper to bring you a reality check; the atrocities you get worked up over committed in the name of Islam really pale in comparison if we look at the atrocities that the christian world has committed, and keep committing. Somtimes the level of religious hyperbole borders on the talibanic, as it were in evangelist circles prior to the US invasion of Iraq. And as to Islam and jews, i doubt you know your case here either.
staffanwest 2 years ago
Its a well known fact that the muslim world treated jews a lot kinder than christians treated either jews or muslims. What to make of that? Islam makes special providence for the other two peoples "of the book", recognizing them to belong to the same general abrahamitic tradition. Well, the creation of Israel and its ensuing wars with its neighbours have raised animosity between jews and muslims, no doubt, but its a propagandistic distortion of reality, something youre good at, to attribute that
staffanwest 2 years ago
What to make of your contention that "muslim world treated jews a lot kinder than christians treated either jews or muslims"? I would have to say that you have uncritically accepted the hoax called the "Islamic Golden Age". In that, you are following in the footsteps of Chomsky.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(...) simply to religious teachings, just as the racism and hate on the jewish side towards arabs and muslims shouldnt be attributed only to religion.
staffanwest 2 years ago
What culture warriors like yourself always fail to adress are the real grievances underlying the conflict between the west and the arab world. That is of course convenient if one has no intention of ever righting the wrongs committed. For the rest of us, who really dont give much of a damn if the fundamentalists be cristian or muslim, as long as theyre far away from political power, trying to adress the issues creating fanatics and fundamentalism becomes all the more important.
staffanwest 2 years ago
Yet another try at slandering someone who criticizes Islam. The grievances set forth by Muslims are usually a set of excuses that hides the Islamic doctrines that they follow. Especially in regards to what they intend to do with Jews, Christians and pagans. Go ahead and whine about the wrongs of the European colonial era in the ME but then again what about the conquests of Islam? Did Muslims ever declare that over and done with? Not hardly. Go to faithfreedomdotorg and try that on them.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
This is asinine. The point in bringing up the real grievances that underlie islamic fundamentalism and ferments it, like the Israel/Palestine-situation, the Iraq war, the machinations of western nations in the Midde east, is not to excuse or legitimize islam, or any ideology in particular for that matter.
Rather its a realisation that unjustice breeds hatred and fanaticism. Therefore, if one wants to eliminate the breeding grunds for fundamentalism, one should start by eliminating the
staffanwest 2 years ago
No it's not. You are deliberately ignoring the influence of Islamic doctrine on the behaviors of Muslims. Then you go on to evade my reference to Islamic conquests and the fact that no Muslims have ever addressed the question of whether or not they have dropped the sword or even apologized for the huge amounts of conquests and slaughters done in the name of Allah. Instead you insist that all the things you listed are the "real grievances" but can't accept that Islam has anything to do with it.
fyvespot 2 years ago
hehe, what is this? I "evade" questions that you did not pose? Where did yu make those silly statements that you accuse me of evading?
Im not "deliberately ignoring" things as much as choosing not to indulge in your particular fetisch for muslim baiting. Obviously you would love to make the point over and over that muslim fundamentalists are so much worse than others, trademark of the islamophobe. But lets not even go there. For once, how would it be if you tried to remain on the ground?
staffanwest 2 years ago
How about taking this to FFI? We can go over old ground and make our cases clear. Or have you ignored my message? C'mon How about it? Or are you too scared to take me on in a slightly different format?
And actually, you are the one indulging on "baiting" with your hysterical accusations. Not me. If you really had an argument that was based on the facts you wouldn't resort to such cheap slanders. Especially worn out ones.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
Look mate, youre really not making yourself a favour by one minute doing all the dirty tricks in the book, and the next playing the victim of my supposed "slander". Be prepared to take what you dish out, or learn to behave better.
Ive already told you that i see no reason to change to that website. But you are free to send me mails, if you feel to constricted by this format.
staffanwest 2 years ago
(part1)I'm not performing any "dirty tricks" and anyone reading these exchanges who possess any honesty and integrity can see that it is you, in fact, who resorts to slander by calling me a "hater" (old one that is). You are scared of open debate in a text format that allows for well thought out and prepared responses. Your silly command to "behave better" is so authoritarian and desperate that is speaks volumes.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
Well sure, lets just leave it at that, anyone reading these exchanges can judge for themselves. But i repeat; it does you little credit that you dish it out, but cant take it when given.
And i see little point in you hacking at the fact that i choose to debate you here and not on some website with a raging bias of your choosing. What i do with my time on the internet is not for you to decide.
BTW, who were those left intellectuals sponsored by Saudi Arabia and the Oil business? Im dying to kn
staffanwest 2 years ago
(part2)And then you prefer emails instead of open debate after actually saying you agree with me about the issue of concision. Is that any way of having an open debate over the issues we have gone over? In fact, your role in all this is absolutely hypocritical and it follows the same basic formula so many crude Marxists take and that is to make personal attacks ad nauseam. Staffan. . . . you are a liar and an evasive one at that who uses insults to camouflage the fact that you are in the wrong.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
Come on know, you are getting parodical. I cannot imegine a more open debate forum than this, where not even membership is required. And nice touch there, first calling me "hipocrite" and "evasive liar" and then accusing me of "using insults".
Small wonder that i cannot be bothered to go anywhere with you for added debating. You just dont put up an interesting enough argument. After all, my own person is not the subject for debate here. And neither is the forum in itself.
staffanwest 2 years ago
Finding some common point of wiew with hatemongers is a tricky business. But lets agree that all fundamentalism is a bad thing. I need not rate the various breeds, as fundamentalist mentality is strikingly similar everywhere. The question then becomes, how to prevent more fundamentalists of all breeds to come into place? There you still has not bothered to offer any explanation. Not surprisingly, as, any discussion of real causes of fanaticism is counterproductive to your purpose.
staffanwest 2 years ago
Ive posed already my solution to the problem that we supposedly agree on; a total reorientatioon of western policies towards muslim coutries, since obviously these policies have produced a fertile breeding ground for fanatics. You fail to admit that the fact that the US is currently waging war on three muslim nations, whereas no muslim nation is waging war on the west, breed fundamentalism. You fail to admit that Israeli occupation of Palestine breed fanaticism. You fail to admit that western
staffanwest 2 years ago
(...) colonial practies have played a part in creating resentment towards us in the muslim world. And then you go on to tell me how very well researched you are on the subject of muslim fundamentalism. It could actually be funny. But its not, really. Just tragic.
staffanwest 2 years ago
(...) festering conflicts. The fact that you so readily dismiss what all serious people recognize as the primus motor in islamic fundamentalism goes a long way to expose your true motivations here. Youre not in the slightest concerned about the real people suffering in these conflicts, where religious fundamentalism plays a part. Rather youre in the business of the fundamentalist culture warrior, out to fan the flames of religious intolerance and hatred towards muslims. If not, maybe you can
staffanwest 2 years ago
Just who are these "serious people"? Are they academics who espouse ostensiby leftwing views but are more than amply financed by Saudi Arabia and the oil industry? You bet. They are the driving force in the self-defeating policies that Republican and Democratic administrations have consistently upheld for more than fifty years. The name of that game is to not even mention the role of Islam in all of this and instead look at the issues you mentioned and never Islam.
fyvespot 2 years ago
Oh, its getting better and better. Who are these suspect individuals, "financed by Saudi-Arabia and the oil industry"?
Again you manage to be selfdefeating in your argumentation. What really is totally absent from the public discourse in the US and in grand part of Europe, is the mention of the historical context for this confrontation between west and arab interest. Not surprisingly, jhow could we talk openly about this, and still be able to look ourselves in the mirror?
staffanwest 2 years ago
(part1)If you want to selectively ignore the role of Saudi and oil industry financing in Western academia then go ahead and ignore such books as Martin Kramer's HEADS IN THE SAND. There is nothing self-defeating in this line of argumentation and plenty of other sources attest to this state of affairs whether you like it or not. Do want to deny that such financial transactions have taken place? Then post some counter-evidence.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
Its a bit comical to demand counterevidence without first having produced some evidence, dont you believe? You claimed that left intellectuals had received money from Saudi Arabia and the oil industry. I asked you who you were accusing. You still havent answered. So what am i supposed to disprove?
staffanwest 2 years ago
(part2)Your take on what is missing from the public discourse is also very false. In fact, the prevailing tone in the public discourse leans heavily to making mention of the colonial era of the 1700s to the mid 1900's ad nauseam. Very little is mentioned of the enormity of the Islamic slave trade, the Islamic conquests, and the atrocities done in order to bring entire subject populations into complete submission.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
Well, it would be terrific if you actually were not lying here, but had it right for once. But its embarassingly obvious that you are. True, islamic slave trade or supposed islamic conquests are not up for debate every day either. But maybe thats not too unreasonable, considering that the boot of colonialism still rests heavily on the middle east. And all of the arab world for that matter. I fail to see arab nations manipulating events in Europe similar to what we have done there.
staffanwest 2 years ago
(part1)Yet another attempt at slander! And what "boot of colonialism" are you talking about? Are the oil companies still exclusively owned by Europeans and Americans anymore?
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part2)Just taking a look at the management and who owns the shares in those firms should tell us that this is a mutinational, multiracial affair and if there is a "boot of colonialism" it can't be solely the fault of Europeans and Americans. Somehow you have very little knowledge of how the oil industry operates since you fail to mention OPEC but instead "fail to see arab nations manipulating events in Europe similar to what we have done there".
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part3)Give the chance they would and if you think they won't then you simply are not facing reality. Either way that is how capitalism sucks the world dry and they are as desperate as your kind in keeping the issue of Islam to a minimum. You are a tool but a tool in denial.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
I fail to see muslim nations waging war on the west, as we have done to them now for a long time. I fail to see direct muslim occupation of western nations, as we are occupying them. I fail to see etnic cleansing committed by muslims against westerners. Still, you would rather that the media discussed islams historical conquests than atrocities comitted today by us against them. Of course you do. Reality is inconvenient for someone with your agenda.
staffanwest 2 years ago
(part3)Does mainstream society even take into consideration the piracy of Muslims in the past? Does the very real fact that these slavers raided as far as Iceland and England to kidnap entire coastal villages get mentioned? Does the issue of how the Serbs, Greeks and others were treated under Muslim rule get taken seriously? How about the Muslim conquest of India? Is that even a subject that you have any familiarity with?
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
Haha, funny you shoudl bring that up, since we get forcefed news about somali pirates daily.
But tell me, not validating any of your claims of what muslims allegedly have done, since i dont trust anyone foaming at the mouth with getting their facts straight, why exactyl should media dwell extensively on islamic history, when there are actual atrocities committed today, every day, by us against them? And should it then also dwell daily of our own history of colonialism and genocidal barbarism?
staffanwest 2 years ago
(part4)How about the bullying efforts of Muslims to make sure their ideological obligations are taken care of over that of indigenous populations? Do the activities of Muslims in organized crime on a global scale ever really get talked about and examined in the public discourse? Do the honor-killings that take place ever get recognized by leftists in regards to the political economy underlying that grotesque phenomenon?
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
How about you stop resorting to lies in your hatemongering?
As anyone that studied islam even a little knows, honour killing is actually a condemned by the religion, a cultural phenomenon practised in certain countries that also practice islam.
staffanwest 2 years ago
There you go again with the slandering. And in fact, honor killing is absolutely Islamic and not confined to Islam alone.
Honor killing is neither in the Quran nor is it specified in any hadith.
It is however the natural outcome of the Islamic ethos of misogyny.
Women in Islam are regarded as sources of shame. Muhammad said they are awrah which can be translated as object of shame.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
I think you have said enough now. When you claim that honour killing belongs to islam tradition, you reveal yourself (as if that had not been clear before) to be just the lowest case of hatemongerer, not even bothering to adjust the message to reality when its held up before your eyes as evidence. Anyone interested in the subject can look it up easily and prove what a fraud you are. And i should really stop wasting my time on debating someone that has no honour, and only debates to spread lies
staffanwest 2 years ago
(part2)"Ali reported the Prophet saying: 'Women have ten ('awrah). When she gets married, the husband covers one, and when she dies the grave covers the ten." [1]
What is awrah? The Encyclopedia of Islam defines 'awrah as pudendum, that is the external genitals, especially of the female. Pudendum derives from the Latin pudor which means sense of shame and modesty. So awrah signify an object of shame that needs to be covered. [2]
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part3)According to the following Hadith, women not only have ten 'awrah, but the woman herself is perceived as 'awrah:
"The woman is 'awrah. When she goes outside (the house), the devil welcomes her." [3]
If a woman loses her awrah by e.g. through rape, she becomes the object of shame for her family and the only way to remove that shame and restore the honor is to remove that defiled woman.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part4)So you can say honor killing is cultural, but it is a culture that is deeply rooted in Islamic mindset and derives from it. It is practiced in all Islamic countries. The more religious is a country, the more is widespread the honor killing.
Women are asked to; �stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display� Quran 33.33
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part5)A woman who transgresses these orders becomes the source of shame to her family. She will not be marriageable, she and her family become the object of gossip of everyone. The entire family can lose prestige. No one would give a daughter to the brothers of that girl in marriage and no one would marry her sisters.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part6)The family and even the extended family are maligned and become outcasts. This can only stop if the family cleanses that stain with blood. The woman thus defiled must be sacrificed even if she is a victim of rape.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part7)But you don�t have to be raped to become an exposed awrah and bring shame to your family. If you disobey your father who has consented that you marry a certain person you dishonor him. If you escape from your home for any reason including abuse, you have brought shame to your family and you could be haunted by your own brothers or even your mother and killed.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part8)If you reject a suitor, his pride can be injured and he may feel the urge to throw acid at your face to avenge and restore his honor.
If you are a female you have to remember that you have brought shame and disgrace to your father and everyone else in your family the day you were born and you must cover this shame, You are awrah, a pudendum, something to be ashamed of, something to hide. When you go to your husband�s house, your parents can breathe a sigh of relief.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
Stop it with the ugly tricks already.
Are you discussing islam or despicable cultural practices not sanctioned by the religion? Countriesd practicing honour killing have also christian populations. What about them?
You obviously try to muddle the border, again to suit your hatemongering interest. Honour killing has no place within islam and is condemned by the religion, not sanctioned.
The fact that you tried to pass that little bit of misinformation off as truth really concludes the debate.
staffanwest 2 years ago
Can't handle the truth can you staffan? How about refuting it word-for-word? I bet you can't.LOL :D
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
Ive spent too much of my time already on refuting your inanities. I know the routine by now. Islamophobia is not refuted by arguing with its fanatical devotees on the net, but by human interaction in the real world.
BTW, you know that christianity propagates homosexuality? Well, not quite, since it really calls for homosexuals to die. But since its a widespread phenomena in christian societies, and - woe - is not punished AT ALL in the christian courts, we can suppose that it is in fact a
staffanwest 2 years ago
Inanities? That's one way of making up an excuse when you show how shallow your arguments are. As for your charge of Islamophobia? Islamophobia is Ad-Hominem but you can't face that hard truth and human interaction is something your kind want to dominate not partake in. The bit about Christianity is tu-quocque and so typical and actually quite irrelevant since I'm agnostic. Now come on over to faithfreedomdotorg. I have a debate thread waiting for you.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part9)But from there on you become the awrah of your husband. Only the grave will cover all the shame that you have brought to this world. But as long as you are alive, it is your religious duty to be modest and cover this shame and not disgrace your qayyuums (male guardians). Your male kin, (father, brothers, husband, sons and even uncles) are your qayyuums and you are their awrah.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part10)If you make a dazzling display of yourself, the honor of all these "honorable" male relatives is injured and all of them have a right to burry you to restore their honor.
Muslim men have very low self esteem but they compensate the smallness of their selfhood by inflating their ego. If you are a women related to them, they feel as if they own you. Whatever you do affects their gigantic ego. They are possessive and feel dishonored if you make a "dazzling display" of yourself.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
"Christian men have very low self esteem, but they compensate the smallness of their selfhood by inflating their ego. If you are a woman related to them, they feel as if they own you. Whatever you do affects your gigantic ego. They are possesive and feel dishonoured if you make a "dazzling display" of yourself."
staffanwest 2 years ago
Oopsy daisy again! You committed yet another tu-quoque! Very good!
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
component of christianity, based on the same dazzling logic that you apply to honour killing and islam.
staffanwest 2 years ago
Uh-huh. LOL
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part11)And of course if you are deflowered, this is an affront to their humongous pride. The damage is irreparable and the only way to restore that pride is to get rid of you.
Honor killing is theoretically against the law in all Islamic countries, but generally the sentences are light. Often they are a year of jail or only a few months.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part12)The judges are very "understanding" and sympathize with the killers who are also grieving for the loss of their loved one. Most likely the Judges would do the same in similar situations. Everyone agrees that this is a very unfortunate situation that has no other solution but taking the life of the poor girl. Often the brothers and the parents hug the lifeless cadaver of their victim and cry bitterly after stabbing her to death or strangulating her.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part13)They don't listen to her pleading and begging to spare her life, but sure they cry profusely for her after they kill her.
On the bright side, if you survive all this, manage to go to your husband�s house and bear him sons, you are set. From there on, and proportionate to the number of sons that you have brought to this world, you gain prestige and respect.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part14)Maybe by the time you are a middle aged woman, your sons are strong and your husband is a crippling old man, you can even bang on his head and insult him to the delight of your heart. But you must have your sons on your side to stand behind you at all times. This is a delicate political maneuver that you have to plan for from early on.
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago
(part15)Then you can be the despot and your aging hubby becomes your vassal. Alas only a few women can savor this sweet taste of success. But those who do it, do it very well.
Oh well, Allah's "Grace is (entirely) in His Hand, to bestow it on whomsoever He wills". Quran 57:29
[1] Kanz-el-'Ummal, Vol. 22, Hadith No. 858. See also Ihy'a
[2] Latin pudendum (literally) a thing to be ashamed of
AnsaralZindiqi 2 years ago