Ich war dann dabei in Proben und Konzert in Stuttgart. Maestro Celibicache war auch mein Professor von Dirigentenkursen in Trier und München. Ich habe so grosse Erlebnisse und Lehre bekommen.
The 'best' in a subjective sense is the one who opens a window on a work that you did not like or understand before. Celi did that for me in several works, like Beethoven's 9th, which I never liked before, but do after him.
Bohm opened my eyes on the 7th.
And Reiner's Chicago recording of the 5th showed me that I was looking at something astonishing.
Where's the absence of dynamics or rhythm in this performance? Anyway, great as they are imho they are both outshone by Toscanini in terms of creating a fully thought-out whole.
Certainly when it comes to those like Celibidache, Kleiber, or similar, Ferenc Fricsay, etc. There is room on that olympian pedastal for all of them, without quibbling about Gold, SIlver or Bronze. They're all Platinum, and I would not want to do with one to the exclusion of the other. I'm sure the composers whose works they perform would agree. Its like places in that regard: no place has everything.
Maravillosa conducción del maestro Celibi...es increible el color, pureza y potencia de la cuerda, además la tonalidad es fabulosa,me gustan mucho los 1ros Viol. sobre todo la afinación de la nota aguda que se convierte luego en respuesta de los chelos es extraordinaria! La madera ni hablar, los unísonos son tan difíciles de lograr, respetando absolutamente la partitura en honor a Brahms. Bravísimo!!!
un' altra cadenza, un tempo più pensato, filologicamente diverso da Kleiber ma geniale nella sua personale poetica, abbiamo avuto una stella fra noi ma non tutti si sono illuminati alla sua luce.
This superb reading brings to mind a passage from the Columbia Book of Classical Music, left me a lifetime ago by my grandmother, in which the Fourth was described as a deep dark well; the longer one gazed into it, the more one was able to see. 'Celi' provides all the illumination that is required - and then some.
If, as in the 1956 classic film "Forbidden Planet," some race discovers this planet after we are gone, perhaps they will regard us by the music we left (and literature and art)...
This is nice but both of Bernstein's recorded accounts (with NY and Vienna) are far more impassioned in the final episodes of the first movement. Celibidache seems rather understated here and perhaps that is what he was going for. But for me, I like this symphony more robust and weighty. Bernstein's impassioned accounts bring out the romantic spirit in this work far more convincingly, IMO.
I don't think you should for your opinions of "best -insert symphony name-" just by browsing youtube, there are tons of monumental recordings that haven't made it here, or are badly tagged.
being raised since 1950 on the germans, i will hold my opinion until i have heard this a few times. One of the great things about YouTube, yes? hear alll the great recordings in any sequence: Kleiber's first movement, Klemperer's second, and Celibidache's third? Bravo Brahms! Bravo YouTube! World-changing medium - best since Gutenberg!
@javideleon24 Yes he was famous for singing with the orchestra! (especially at rehearsels.) He became quite popular in Sweden in the 60-ies. (rehearsing with the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra on TV.) Everyone went around imitating him! "Tiiita tiiita tiiita!" (he also danced on the podium. Throwing his long hair around.)
The balance in this version is amazing, especially at the entrance of the second theme. I've never been able to hear all the instruments this clearly!
The best Brahmsian in my opinion is Eugen Jochum!..His mono set of the 1950's with the BPO on DG, is a revelation..mainly part to the magnificent playing from the Berliners.....haven't heard anything as good since...
Kleiber is more dynamic and rich - yes he is a great Brahmsian. But Celibidache sounds more spontaneous and emotionally free to me, which is also a desired rarity among Brahms conductors. I don't want to make up my mind on this, frankly, as many people do. I was thinking about the recording I listened to most frequently - Klemperer's cycle on EMI. In comparison, Klemperer is stronger and plainer, and the recording is very, very enduring to long term scrutiny.
Simply superb. The coda, on my short list of greatest symphonic passages ever, is a paralyzing experience in Celibidache's hands. It is the very definition of intense.
Every time I listen this, I feel transported to another dimension, the dynamics are just out of this universe, thank you Celibidache for let us know what music really means.
a interpretation schizofrenic, great of course... the god ceh-lee-bee-DAH-kay ... anyway schizofrenic, but you know expecially in the last years Celibidache was in a other planet, from it he looks at the world like a shit full of stupid men.
there is a difference between Kleiber and Celibidache...one is a fantastic musicia and the other is the expresion of truth in art... Celibidache was in music what Einstein was in phisics...
I've so long been an admirer of Celibidache, that I've only just realised I have no idea how to pronounce his name! To save embarrassment in conversation; please may someone phonetically spell it for me? Thanks :)
Which is better? That's a tough one. The difficulty with Brahms is bringing out the necessary "architechture" Kleiber does things differently in certain moments then most of the crowd.This is my first hearing of Celi" and it's amazing. Hearing
balances among instruments is some of the recording's influence to consider. These two are different kinds of greatness
Kleiber und Celibidache sind so fundamental veschiedene Dirgenten dass der Vergleich mAn fast keinen Sinn macht. Wo bei Celibidache alles Klang und Phrasierung ist, ist es bei Kleiber Dynamik und Rythmus.
Zwei voellig verschiedene Arten Musik zu machen, beide genialisch und hochmusikalisch, und beide absolut authentisch. Ich habe moechte keinen von beiden missen.
Kleiber and Celibidache are so fundamentally different conductors that comparison is almost pointless, imo. Where Celibidache is all about sound and phrasing, Kleiber is about dynamics and rythm.
Two totally different ways of music making, both ingenious and both entirely authentic. I don't want miss either of them.
I like the Celi version better. I can hear ALL the instruments, with the Kleiber I was straining to hear what was in the background and it was driving me crazy. and way way way more passion with this one in my opinion.
I think there's no way of saying Kleiber or Celi is 'better'. They both perform very convincingly. I do prefer Kleiber however, because his interpretation is with more tenderness and vulnerability. With Celi, the sound is somewhat heavier...I am teppted to say 'more ego', but that was in his younger years ;-) But thank you for posting this so we can all enjoy the unmeasurable wealth of all those fine musicians.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
expecially in his lat years Celibidache was just full of himself, boring, and so envious of other musicians, and living in his aurea of zen. Even if he never forget to record all his concerts... money is money...
For me it´s like Kleiber made the more objective and agogically precise recording, Celi the more subjective. I must admit I´m a big admirer of Kleiber, so don´t ask me what I like more...
Everyone goes on about how much "energy" he brings to the performance when most of the time it can be simply attributed to a quick tempo. Celibidache understood and discussed a different and better approach to intensity that relied on sound itself and not the tempo.
Have you ever weighed the possibilty that the slow tempi are the result of Parkinson's disease with the Celibidache ? Equally, felt that much of what Karajan did in his old age was due to a partial hearing loss.
Alternatively it was possbile that Karajan was suffering from early Alzheimers. There are a couple of videos I have seen towards the end of Karajan's life where it seems the orchestra is carrying him. Incidentally have you listened to the Bernstein/VPO Brahms Four on YouTube? It blew me away and I know Brahms' symphonies very well indeed ...
I have got the Brahms cycle with Bernstein on LP,on CD and on DVD. And when they make paintings of it, I will buy too . I like it very much (especially the oboe). thanks for asking.
Yes, Bernstein/WPO is a VERY good recording of this. The relationship between the orchestra and Bernstein was incredible. I'd hate to say "best," but it is in very rarefied company, certainly. I will say without hesitation that the Wiener Philharmoniker is the best Brahms orchestra, bar none. The old obes and horns make a real difference in Brahms, and they breathe this music, having played it from the time when Brahms walked among us.
He didn't die of Parkinson nor of Alzheimer , he was decreasing tempo towards his age due to artistic reasons, nothing to do with illnesses , same with Karajan, those guys died with the baton in his hands.
This is a wonderful interpretation. Celibidache has a inner sense for underlining cumulating musical points and dynamic in order to interpret the essential and essence in music like no other conductors. His interpretation is also a reflection of the acoustic of the concert hall he is surrender by. Thank you for posting this !
If you watch videos of him, he comes across like a manipulative shaman, which some people think is wonderful but I think is pathological. He was also hideously sexist, to which Don "Leopieroidemant" might answer again with the mysterious exclamation "ignorant!" because he too might be some kind of musical swashbuckler or musketeer.....
Elève de Furtwangler, Celibidache a dépassé le maitre, peut être pas en tout, mais au moins dans la compréhension de l'oeuvre de Brahms, et dans sa vision de la musique de la moitié du 19 em siècle. Celle-çi correspond bien plus à ce que je ressens de ce qu'elle doit être. Le pseudo du comment précedent "celestial" correspond assez bien à l'intensité de cette musique. Intensement céleste ! divine comme jupiter ... Alta Cultura !
I like the Stuttgart Recording of the fourth more than the Munich one - the orchestra isn't as good, but it is much more dramatic. And the hole movements are more comprehensible - in my opinion.
celibidache ist der beste musiker und dirigent den es je gab!! niemand anders sonst (bis heute nicht) gibts der musik auf so profossioneller ebene so eine bedeutung wie er!! es is t einfach der wahsinn: stücke, die schon tausendmal eingespielt wurden und sich mit der zeit immer mehr auslutschen und dadurch echt manchmal richtich nervig und schlecht klingen kann celibidache zum eigentlich richtigen und vom komponisten Gemeinten klang bringen!!
They are both very good...and both beautiful...I stopped looking for "the best" recording...Started stealing from every recording...Well, not the REALLY bad ones :) ahahah
Celi rushes the part of the coda where the theme returns in the horns - no longer as a question but as terrible, crushing, inevitable truth - it sounds smeared, the loud legato playing of the strings obscures all detail, when the theme is finally split between the horns, trumpets and strings only their part shines through. The final chords and drum roll sound hushed, conciliatory. Kleiber on the other hand drags too much in the coda especially in the late account uploaded to youtube.
I find excessive tempo modifications to tear apart the contrapuntal weave of Brahms' music in most cases, I prefer the intensity Klemperer finds in (relative) constancy. Every note transition feels inevitable, unshakable, there is no smearing, no wavering - in the coda you don't just hear the strings with a bit of ornamentation from the brass, you hear a myriad of voices joining in to sing a song of inevitable mortality - Brahms confirms his theme's connotation with death with the song 'O Tod'.
Non amo molto le interpretazioni di Celibidache, però riconosco che è stato un grande artista molto preciso purtroppo non molto fedele alla partitura.
Just to answer to Busillis67, I can only transmit my opinion about the comparison between the Celibidache's version and the Kleiber's version. The first one, this one actually, is nearly perfect (and, please, notice that I'm not a fan on Celi) in sound, balance and perfect control of every detail. Last but not least, this interpretation is full of true filings and I was very impressed listening to it. (part one)
(part two) The only thing I find more in the Kleiber version (and in every Kleiber interpretation as well) is that he was able to make you sure that the music he was conducting was still alive, now, in the present. I have still this feeling every time I listen to a Kleiber recording and I think this is the reason because he's been such an unique musician.
The difference between Kleiber and other conductors is that with Carlos I can hear the music alive, with others I hear just great personal interpretations. THis is the case with this one.
I disagree completely. In fact, when I listen to Kleiber, I hear the interpreter instead of the music itself. Kleiber had a grab bag of tricks he would pull out to liven things up a bit, but I've never felt like he really understood what he was conducting.
Nobody as yet has answered my question: is Brahms a Romantic using classical structures, or a Classicist using a Romantic vocabilary? Therein lis the difference among the different approaches by conductors to his music. I like both approaches: certainly Toscanini's electric NBC recording and Furtwangler's incandescent 1948 Performance from London exemplify the two extremes. I like Victor de Sabata, Bruno Walter and William Steinberg in this music too; this one by Celibidache is quite beautiful.
Brahms is definitely a Romantic using classical form. He stretched the limits of harmony extensively (which is why Schoenberg loved him) while mastering classical forms (mainly sonata and variations--like the last movement of this symphony) like few have ever done. Try listening to Kleiber's recording with Vienna.
Strangly, the current recording on youtube of Kleiber isn't with his own orchestra, I think it with the concertgebouw in Amsterdam, I think it is from 82' or so, "a guest appearance" as such
This version seems to flow slightly more naturally than the Kleiber, although I love both really. But this one gives me goosebumps and the Kleiber doesn't for some reason.
I have to go with Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra. The way that orchestra ended its phrases with such sensitivity and warmth. And the horns (Myron Bloom and the gang)...good Lord, the warmth and depth they had--it was like swimming in chocolate!!
Give me Furtwangler. His uncle knew Brahms personally... And his Brahms is simply outstanding. Celibidache is of course very nice! But his teacher still beats him clearly.
Celibidache does wonderfully long phrases instead of short episodes the way most conductors do. Notice the ends of notes. Beautiful yes? Each note is going somewhere. This music transports me, and I mean literally. It never unexpectedly puts me down in a dangerous part of town. It takes me all the way home.
I always come back to the one of Kleiber. For me it has an equilibrium difficult to compare with other versions. And when you talk about pathos and the tragic sense of the interpretation, I think that that means to make more obvious something that is already present in the music. Anyways, both versions worth my praise. Thanks for posting and for allowing us to listen another version of this masterpiece.
Celi is greater, deeper, wiser. Kleiber is kind of artificial to me. I have worked with him when he conducted the same symphony (by the way with Celi too) and can say, that it was rather disappointing experience.
He began with almost a genial 1st rehearsal, 2nd was a little bit less good, the general rehearsal was quite bad and the concert was... not good. Sorry. But the real genius is - to me - of course Celi. No doubt.
Sergiu Celibidache,para muchos el mayor genio de la dirección del siglo XX,nunca se de`´o grabar.Entendía la música,como un acto único e irrepetible.Cualquier grabación o filmación desvirtuaba el espíritu del acto recreador.
Do you know the story that Maria Callas was interviewed while driving in a car, and then they were listening a Classic Radio and there was Beethoven 5th. She said" This conductor don't understand Beethoven style at all, wrong.
I heard Furtwangler in Milan" it was Szell on the radio.
actually they were listening to beethoven's 8th on the radio not the 5th. and the interviewer's name was John Ardoin, a close friend of Callas. also, he wasn't interviewing her, but he was taking her to a doctor.
Yes I have to say his interpretations is batter than Kleiber. Before i watched this, Kleiber is my favorite..now i gotta change. This is really amazing.
Well!should I remember guys that this is a RECORDING!and Kleiber's performance is LIVE CONCERT! for me, even if i dont like this orchestra, I prefer Celibidache's version.But also others version like Mravinsky are great!
@german4tea this is NOT a studio recording, its a live concert too, like Kleibers performance, Celibidache made only 4 or five studio recordings his whole live
Ich war dann dabei in Proben und Konzert in Stuttgart. Maestro Celibicache war auch mein Professor von Dirigentenkursen in Trier und München. Ich habe so grosse Erlebnisse und Lehre bekommen.
oniemi1 1 month ago
Proud to be Romanian ... Celibidache is one of the most representative musical figures in Romania.
Apokolohypnotis 1 month ago
celibidache for me!
warandcheese 4 months ago
The 'best' in a subjective sense is the one who opens a window on a work that you did not like or understand before. Celi did that for me in several works, like Beethoven's 9th, which I never liked before, but do after him.
Bohm opened my eyes on the 7th.
And Reiner's Chicago recording of the 5th showed me that I was looking at something astonishing.
mrlevina2 5 months ago
Superb! A work of genius. TY B for posting
paulostroff99 5 months ago
His sound is darker, more velvetty. Kleiber's is crispier,more cristaline.
Triosfrios 6 months ago
Where's the absence of dynamics or rhythm in this performance? Anyway, great as they are imho they are both outshone by Toscanini in terms of creating a fully thought-out whole.
corneliusfelix 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Hey everyone!
I'm a composer from Pittsburgh interested in film scoring. Please check out my music and let me know what you think!
rkotcher 7 months ago
Certainly when it comes to those like Celibidache, Kleiber, or similar, Ferenc Fricsay, etc. There is room on that olympian pedastal for all of them, without quibbling about Gold, SIlver or Bronze. They're all Platinum, and I would not want to do with one to the exclusion of the other. I'm sure the composers whose works they perform would agree. Its like places in that regard: no place has everything.
MuseDuCafe 8 months ago
Maravillosa conducción del maestro Celibi...es increible el color, pureza y potencia de la cuerda, además la tonalidad es fabulosa,me gustan mucho los 1ros Viol. sobre todo la afinación de la nota aguda que se convierte luego en respuesta de los chelos es extraordinaria! La madera ni hablar, los unísonos son tan difíciles de lograr, respetando absolutamente la partitura en honor a Brahms. Bravísimo!!!
VIOLONCHELOS 10 months ago
Celibidache by far.
AliceBooger 10 months ago
DIRIJOR UNIC
daria1003 11 months ago
Comment removed
aslevin69 11 months ago
Awesome! TY for posting.
paulostroff99 11 months ago
un' altra cadenza, un tempo più pensato, filologicamente diverso da Kleiber ma geniale nella sua personale poetica, abbiamo avuto una stella fra noi ma non tutti si sono illuminati alla sua luce.
scriabin50 1 year ago 3
This superb reading brings to mind a passage from the Columbia Book of Classical Music, left me a lifetime ago by my grandmother, in which the Fourth was described as a deep dark well; the longer one gazed into it, the more one was able to see. 'Celi' provides all the illumination that is required - and then some.
If, as in the 1956 classic film "Forbidden Planet," some race discovers this planet after we are gone, perhaps they will regard us by the music we left (and literature and art)...
AJNorth 1 year ago
A' ri : O
cavalcando 1 year ago
This is nice but both of Bernstein's recorded accounts (with NY and Vienna) are far more impassioned in the final episodes of the first movement. Celibidache seems rather understated here and perhaps that is what he was going for. But for me, I like this symphony more robust and weighty. Bernstein's impassioned accounts bring out the romantic spirit in this work far more convincingly, IMO.
missanyhooox3 1 year ago
I don't think you should for your opinions of "best -insert symphony name-" just by browsing youtube, there are tons of monumental recordings that haven't made it here, or are badly tagged.
sefard777 1 year ago 2
I adore him.
cristetoile11 1 year ago
Whatever one might prefer, Celibidache is always interesting.
I thing this is stunning myself..
quinto34 1 year ago
being raised since 1950 on the germans, i will hold my opinion until i have heard this a few times. One of the great things about YouTube, yes? hear alll the great recordings in any sequence: Kleiber's first movement, Klemperer's second, and Celibidache's third? Bravo Brahms! Bravo YouTube! World-changing medium - best since Gutenberg!
MELDtoys 1 year ago
Kleiber!!!
dallcott 1 year ago
3:36-3:37 and 3:40-3:41, it´s Celibidache´s voice?
Maybe the best Brahm´s fourth...
javideleon24 1 year ago
@javideleon24 Yes he was famous for singing with the orchestra! (especially at rehearsels.) He became quite popular in Sweden in the 60-ies. (rehearsing with the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra on TV.) Everyone went around imitating him! "Tiiita tiiita tiiita!" (he also danced on the podium. Throwing his long hair around.)
ellandelachapelle 1 year ago
You cannot compare artists on this level.
Ok, Kleiber.
grebrim 1 year ago
It looks to me that Kleiber performs the music and Celi sings'it.
I'm just a common listener - not educated in music, but this is how it sounds to me.
Iustinification 1 year ago
I agree with busillis67,this recording is the most interesting from what I heard in u-tube
igalviola 1 year ago
One of the greatest conductors of all times to most of us. To me, he's always the best, We miss you dearly.
jcilwcw 1 year ago 2
The balance in this version is amazing, especially at the entrance of the second theme. I've never been able to hear all the instruments this clearly!
Mattlzpf 1 year ago
Best performance all around!!!!
Mattlzpf 1 year ago
Is this a free fall into the abyss or a walk through the meadows?
Celebidache makes me feel that vertigo to fall.
perpato 1 year ago
Anyone knows is there the complete performance of this on youtube?
iplongnin 1 year ago
Karl Schad plays a wonderful Timpani!!
HuehnerHonk 1 year ago
The best Brahmsian in my opinion is Eugen Jochum!..His mono set of the 1950's with the BPO on DG, is a revelation..mainly part to the magnificent playing from the Berliners.....haven't heard anything as good since...
davecoleman12 1 year ago
Yawn.
ilkinond 1 year ago
Kleiber is more dynamic and rich - yes he is a great Brahmsian. But Celibidache sounds more spontaneous and emotionally free to me, which is also a desired rarity among Brahms conductors. I don't want to make up my mind on this, frankly, as many people do. I was thinking about the recording I listened to most frequently - Klemperer's cycle on EMI. In comparison, Klemperer is stronger and plainer, and the recording is very, very enduring to long term scrutiny.
iplongnin 1 year ago
I think that th only interperattion of Brahms IV that may be compared with the Celi version is Bruno Walter
albertodelbuono 1 year ago
I like Mravinsky & Furtwangler more, also
Takashi Asahina, Celibidache 's Brahms N0.2 is better.
MrAlgykcho 1 year ago
Simply superb. The coda, on my short list of greatest symphonic passages ever, is a paralyzing experience in Celibidache's hands. It is the very definition of intense.
MaestroTJS 1 year ago
Yawn
ilkinond 1 year ago
Both are excellent and there is no competition !
JeanGuyDW 1 year ago
Celibidache/Kleiber, both sides of the same musical universe. Celi more objective, Kleiber more fantastical.
Perseus12345678 1 year ago
@Perseus12345678
don't know, maybe Celi more musical, Kleiber more dynamic?
Love them both, though, but ADORE GÜNTER WAND
kateholli 1 year ago
@kateholli Gunter Wand heard his bruckner 9 and liked it. full bodied.
Celi brucker 9 was more a complete musical universe.
Perseus12345678 1 year ago
Heard Celi Brucker 9 and liked it. It is a more complete musical universe than Wand, but liked Gunter Wand a lot.
Perseus12345678 1 year ago
Thank you Cele,this world is better place because artists like you and Brahms.
jcilwcw 1 year ago
Reminds me of autumn, perhaps even one's final autumn...
MilitantScience 1 year ago
the more i heard him conduct, the more i like Celibidache : p
marcellabear 1 year ago 2
Every time I listen this, I feel transported to another dimension, the dynamics are just out of this universe, thank you Celibidache for let us know what music really means.
Bautisnemo 1 year ago 6
Better than Kleiber - much more tension and drive, but in places just a little too accelerando
parabat7 1 year ago
There is nothing common with the YouTube Kleiber's version.
Kleiber's version is for me sterile : no tension, no dynamic.
I am very impressed bythis one of Celibidache which is by far superior to his own recording with Munich( EMI). Philharmony .
metphmet 1 year ago
a interpretation schizofrenic, great of course... the god ceh-lee-bee-DAH-kay ... anyway schizofrenic, but you know expecially in the last years Celibidache was in a other planet, from it he looks at the world like a shit full of stupid men.
foerster 1 year ago
The best Brahms nr.4.
monicapotcovaru 1 year ago 23
agreed
Perseus12345678 1 year ago
@monicapotcovaru Hopefully not because you share the same land of birth with the conductor !
zece1314 1 year ago
Pronounce it as if it were Italian: ceh-lee-bee-DAH-kay
nsimington 2 years ago
ahah LOL nice!
:-)))
just a joke, for italians Washington is Uoscinton. Moon, Mun. WIth log "u". Moon is "Luna". How you do pronunce it it? "loona"?
foerster 1 year ago
there is a difference between Kleiber and Celibidache...one is a fantastic musicia and the other is the expresion of truth in art... Celibidache was in music what Einstein was in phisics...
tudoryka79 2 years ago
so true. expressed my thoughts exactly. anyone know of performances of celibidache and michelangeli performing together?
Perseus12345678 1 year ago
@Perseus12345678 there is one on youtube : the ravel piano concerto
marcellabear 1 year ago
chell -ee-be-dark-ee.... I think
rugbycub 2 years ago
thanks!
jazzlover06 2 years ago
Sounds like you're talking like Jabba the hut
Bautisnemo 2 years ago
I've so long been an admirer of Celibidache, that I've only just realised I have no idea how to pronounce his name! To save embarrassment in conversation; please may someone phonetically spell it for me? Thanks :)
jazzlover06 2 years ago
it's ce (like in cherry) - lee- bee- da-che (like in cat)
amtal6 2 years ago
@jazzlover06 tche - lee - bee - dah - ke
iuliuvasilescu 1 year ago
Which is better? That's a tough one. The difficulty with Brahms is bringing out the necessary "architechture" Kleiber does things differently in certain moments then most of the crowd.This is my first hearing of Celi" and it's amazing. Hearing
balances among instruments is some of the recording's influence to consider. These two are different kinds of greatness
gammarotor 2 years ago
ja... Er macht viel besser als Kleiber....Kleiber machte am ende einen großen fehler...sein ROBATO ist ganz falsch
(yes... it is better as Kleiber)
sisidoody 2 years ago
Kleiber und Celibidache sind so fundamental veschiedene Dirgenten dass der Vergleich mAn fast keinen Sinn macht. Wo bei Celibidache alles Klang und Phrasierung ist, ist es bei Kleiber Dynamik und Rythmus.
Zwei voellig verschiedene Arten Musik zu machen, beide genialisch und hochmusikalisch, und beide absolut authentisch. Ich habe moechte keinen von beiden missen.
herodot2 2 years ago 4
(in English)
Kleiber and Celibidache are so fundamentally different conductors that comparison is almost pointless, imo. Where Celibidache is all about sound and phrasing, Kleiber is about dynamics and rythm.
Two totally different ways of music making, both ingenious and both entirely authentic. I don't want miss either of them.
herodot2 2 years ago 44
@herodot2 What a lovely analysis. I prefer this one but I always love Kleiber also.
ahimsainternational 5 months ago
Chelibidache sapeva dirigere molto bene Brahms. E anche Schumann.
Mi piace meno il "suo" Beethoven.
alcibiadel 2 years ago
Ci manchi.
rattupenigu 2 years ago
wonderful, very natural !
wupperfeld 2 years ago 2
Oh marvel... transparent yet passionate, refined and pure poetry.
Celibidache , usted es grande, grandioso, extraordinar, sublim. I feel proud to be rumanian.......................
avecantarina 2 years ago 4
celibidache of course because i m listening with my heart :)
Ccccclaudino 2 years ago 2
I like the Celi version better. I can hear ALL the instruments, with the Kleiber I was straining to hear what was in the background and it was driving me crazy. and way way way more passion with this one in my opinion.
FaygoAddict 2 years ago 3
I think there's no way of saying Kleiber or Celi is 'better'. They both perform very convincingly. I do prefer Kleiber however, because his interpretation is with more tenderness and vulnerability. With Celi, the sound is somewhat heavier...I am teppted to say 'more ego', but that was in his younger years ;-) But thank you for posting this so we can all enjoy the unmeasurable wealth of all those fine musicians.
MyMusic0201 2 years ago
so passionate! blows kleiber away...
manoelawunder 2 years ago
With Celibidache I hear realy Brahms music!
He felt the Brahms' poetry like no other.
Thank you for posting this!
gaugin1903 2 years ago 4
Maravilhoso e Ótimo. O importante é a capacidade dele ser alguém na música e não de ser chato insuportável e groso e mais. Interpretação nota 1000
dreamsolf 2 years ago
Comment removed
foerster 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
expecially in his lat years Celibidache was just full of himself, boring, and so envious of other musicians, and living in his aurea of zen. Even if he never forget to record all his concerts... money is money...
foerster 2 years ago
Comment removed
Bautisnemo 2 years ago
Comment removed
foerster 2 years ago
Comment removed
Bautisnemo 2 years ago
Comment removed
foerster 2 years ago
Comment removed
Bautisnemo 2 years ago
Comment removed
foerster 2 years ago
Comment removed
Bautisnemo 2 years ago
Comment removed
foerster 2 years ago
Comment removed
Bautisnemo 2 years ago
"hideously sexist" is an understatement!
trombonekaren 2 years ago
huh?
mehandas 2 years ago
For me it´s like Kleiber made the more objective and agogically precise recording, Celi the more subjective. I must admit I´m a big admirer of Kleiber, so don´t ask me what I like more...
anonymusum 2 years ago
Everyone goes on about how much "energy" he brings to the performance when most of the time it can be simply attributed to a quick tempo. Celibidache understood and discussed a different and better approach to intensity that relied on sound itself and not the tempo.
maestrojeremy 2 years ago
Have you ever weighed the possibilty that the slow tempi are the result of Parkinson's disease with the Celibidache ? Equally, felt that much of what Karajan did in his old age was due to a partial hearing loss.
etiterum 2 years ago
Alternatively it was possbile that Karajan was suffering from early Alzheimers. There are a couple of videos I have seen towards the end of Karajan's life where it seems the orchestra is carrying him. Incidentally have you listened to the Bernstein/VPO Brahms Four on YouTube? It blew me away and I know Brahms' symphonies very well indeed ...
chokedad 2 years ago
I have got the Brahms cycle with Bernstein on LP,on CD and on DVD. And when they make paintings of it, I will buy too . I like it very much (especially the oboe). thanks for asking.
etiterum 2 years ago
Yes, Bernstein/WPO is a VERY good recording of this. The relationship between the orchestra and Bernstein was incredible. I'd hate to say "best," but it is in very rarefied company, certainly. I will say without hesitation that the Wiener Philharmoniker is the best Brahms orchestra, bar none. The old obes and horns make a real difference in Brahms, and they breathe this music, having played it from the time when Brahms walked among us.
omahhum 2 years ago
He didn't die of Parkinson nor of Alzheimer , he was decreasing tempo towards his age due to artistic reasons, nothing to do with illnesses , same with Karajan, those guys died with the baton in his hands.
Bautisnemo 2 years ago 3
This has been flagged as spam show
ahahahaha!
foerster 2 years ago
Comment removed
foerster 2 years ago
This is a wonderful interpretation. Celibidache has a inner sense for underlining cumulating musical points and dynamic in order to interpret the essential and essence in music like no other conductors. His interpretation is also a reflection of the acoustic of the concert hall he is surrender by. Thank you for posting this !
embenadorfinearts 2 years ago
Celi is a Genius and SPECIALIST of all orchestral masterpieces ! This level of CARE... care of each phrase and pitch is DIVINE !
sam0xin 2 years ago 2
By all accounts, Celibidache was a thorough pig of a man, but ain't nothin' gonna help the fact that this recording is brilliant.
SpottyDorsord 2 years ago
Celibidache was a thorough pig ... ???
what HAPPEND !?!?!?
sam0xin 2 years ago
ignorant!
leopieroidemant 2 years ago
If you watch videos of him, he comes across like a manipulative shaman, which some people think is wonderful but I think is pathological. He was also hideously sexist, to which Don "Leopieroidemant" might answer again with the mysterious exclamation "ignorant!" because he too might be some kind of musical swashbuckler or musketeer.....
SpottyDorsord 2 years ago
Wonderful...
There is no 'best' in music of course, just preference
quinto34 2 years ago 2
yeah, best according to preference.
GusMagnusO 2 years ago
Elève de Furtwangler, Celibidache a dépassé le maitre, peut être pas en tout, mais au moins dans la compréhension de l'oeuvre de Brahms, et dans sa vision de la musique de la moitié du 19 em siècle. Celle-çi correspond bien plus à ce que je ressens de ce qu'elle doit être. Le pseudo du comment précedent "celestial" correspond assez bien à l'intensité de cette musique. Intensement céleste ! divine comme jupiter ... Alta Cultura !
Berdjum 2 years ago
Comment removed
Berdjum 2 years ago
Smooth as silk & satin
cellestialX 2 years ago 2
Celi has taken us one step closer to the composer's heart and soul once again. We missed you dearly.
jcilwcw 2 years ago
Is the the Stuttgart or the Munich Recording?
christophleipzig 2 years ago
maybe, I think.
I have this one. You should buy it.
Really great performance.
sitesnk 2 years ago
I have it. ;)
I like the Stuttgart Recording of the fourth more than the Munich one - the orchestra isn't as good, but it is much more dramatic. And the hole movements are more comprehensible - in my opinion.
christophleipzig 2 years ago
Oh, sorry.
I have totally forgotten to answer your question.
This is Stuttgart version, I think.
sitesnk 2 years ago
That's why it is so damn good. ;)
christophleipzig 2 years ago
I have been sure that Cleiber's version is the best of Brahms' no4.
But now I agree with Busillis67.
Celi's version has depth and is more dramatic.
Kleiber is a little bit cheerful and light for Brahms' no4.
Please do not misunderstand me. I love Kleiber's version, too.
By the way, do you hear Celi giving instructions with loud voice? :D
sitesnk 2 years ago
This is the best by far!
iurena 2 years ago
celibidache ist der beste musiker und dirigent den es je gab!! niemand anders sonst (bis heute nicht) gibts der musik auf so profossioneller ebene so eine bedeutung wie er!! es is t einfach der wahsinn: stücke, die schon tausendmal eingespielt wurden und sich mit der zeit immer mehr auslutschen und dadurch echt manchmal richtich nervig und schlecht klingen kann celibidache zum eigentlich richtigen und vom komponisten Gemeinten klang bringen!!
schrecklich dass er nicht mehr das ist!
zuckerblick2009 2 years ago
They are both very good...and both beautiful...I stopped looking for "the best" recording...Started stealing from every recording...Well, not the REALLY bad ones :) ahahah
kpenchev 2 years ago
Celi rushes the part of the coda where the theme returns in the horns - no longer as a question but as terrible, crushing, inevitable truth - it sounds smeared, the loud legato playing of the strings obscures all detail, when the theme is finally split between the horns, trumpets and strings only their part shines through. The final chords and drum roll sound hushed, conciliatory. Kleiber on the other hand drags too much in the coda especially in the late account uploaded to youtube.
Nachtmarchen 2 years ago
I find excessive tempo modifications to tear apart the contrapuntal weave of Brahms' music in most cases, I prefer the intensity Klemperer finds in (relative) constancy. Every note transition feels inevitable, unshakable, there is no smearing, no wavering - in the coda you don't just hear the strings with a bit of ornamentation from the brass, you hear a myriad of voices joining in to sing a song of inevitable mortality - Brahms confirms his theme's connotation with death with the song 'O Tod'.
Nachtmarchen 2 years ago
You know what Brahms have said: " Metronome and my heart just don't go together."
kpenchev 2 years ago 2
It's not like Klemperer's Brahms is metronomic, I was talking about huge tempo swings, not detail articulation.
Nachtmarchen 2 years ago
Non amo molto le interpretazioni di Celibidache, però riconosco che è stato un grande artista molto preciso purtroppo non molto fedele alla partitura.
uazaro 2 years ago
Just to answer to Busillis67, I can only transmit my opinion about the comparison between the Celibidache's version and the Kleiber's version. The first one, this one actually, is nearly perfect (and, please, notice that I'm not a fan on Celi) in sound, balance and perfect control of every detail. Last but not least, this interpretation is full of true filings and I was very impressed listening to it. (part one)
Matteo7419 2 years ago
(part two) The only thing I find more in the Kleiber version (and in every Kleiber interpretation as well) is that he was able to make you sure that the music he was conducting was still alive, now, in the present. I have still this feeling every time I listen to a Kleiber recording and I think this is the reason because he's been such an unique musician.
Matteo7419 2 years ago
Matteo7419,
Best comment ever I read in yout Tube.
The difference between Kleiber and other conductors is that with Carlos I can hear the music alive, with others I hear just great personal interpretations. THis is the case with this one.
wysiwyg248 2 years ago
I disagree completely. In fact, when I listen to Kleiber, I hear the interpreter instead of the music itself. Kleiber had a grab bag of tricks he would pull out to liven things up a bit, but I've never felt like he really understood what he was conducting.
maestrojeremy 2 years ago
Celibidache: the best, the only conductor ever!
wolfgangus1 2 years ago
Nobody as yet has answered my question: is Brahms a Romantic using classical structures, or a Classicist using a Romantic vocabilary? Therein lis the difference among the different approaches by conductors to his music. I like both approaches: certainly Toscanini's electric NBC recording and Furtwangler's incandescent 1948 Performance from London exemplify the two extremes. I like Victor de Sabata, Bruno Walter and William Steinberg in this music too; this one by Celibidache is quite beautiful.
billyguns2 2 years ago
Brahms is definitely a Romantic using classical form. He stretched the limits of harmony extensively (which is why Schoenberg loved him) while mastering classical forms (mainly sonata and variations--like the last movement of this symphony) like few have ever done. Try listening to Kleiber's recording with Vienna.
jnicho19 2 years ago
Strangly, the current recording on youtube of Kleiber isn't with his own orchestra, I think it with the concertgebouw in Amsterdam, I think it is from 82' or so, "a guest appearance" as such
whenultra 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
K A R A J A N...simply
PUCCINIMUSICK 2 years ago
Incredibile, incredibile, incredibile.....
donchevmeister 2 years ago
Celibidache - Brahms IV just perfect! are you planing tu upload the rest of the simphony? Thank You
iurena 2 years ago
This version seems to flow slightly more naturally than the Kleiber, although I love both really. But this one gives me goosebumps and the Kleiber doesn't for some reason.
crankycaz 2 years ago
the sound quality is great in this video.
OperaBaritoneJoe 2 years ago
I have to go with Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra. The way that orchestra ended its phrases with such sensitivity and warmth. And the horns (Myron Bloom and the gang)...good Lord, the warmth and depth they had--it was like swimming in chocolate!!
Tigerwarhawk 3 years ago
Give me Furtwangler. His uncle knew Brahms personally... And his Brahms is simply outstanding. Celibidache is of course very nice! But his teacher still beats him clearly.
rtega 3 years ago
Celibidache does wonderfully long phrases instead of short episodes the way most conductors do. Notice the ends of notes. Beautiful yes? Each note is going somewhere. This music transports me, and I mean literally. It never unexpectedly puts me down in a dangerous part of town. It takes me all the way home.
x422mno 3 years ago
Thank you so much for this Brahms 4th clip. I don't know why but I'm deeply touched by this version.
Could anyone please tell me when this was recorded? Thanks in advance.
jodycheung90 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
His tempo's all over the place, this changes the proportions of the movement.
pedrovski10 3 years ago
I always come back to the one of Kleiber. For me it has an equilibrium difficult to compare with other versions. And when you talk about pathos and the tragic sense of the interpretation, I think that that means to make more obvious something that is already present in the music. Anyways, both versions worth my praise. Thanks for posting and for allowing us to listen another version of this masterpiece.
seaio18 3 years ago
Furtwengler and Celibidache.
Then long way no one.
Only then Kleiber, Bernstein etc.
And only the very last is Karajan...
Of course, if we are talking about the very best of the 20th century.
maesstri 3 years ago
Celi is greater, deeper, wiser. Kleiber is kind of artificial to me. I have worked with him when he conducted the same symphony (by the way with Celi too) and can say, that it was rather disappointing experience.
He began with almost a genial 1st rehearsal, 2nd was a little bit less good, the general rehearsal was quite bad and the concert was... not good. Sorry. But the real genius is - to me - of course Celi. No doubt.
Rafaliana 3 years ago
Kleiber has done great things but his Brahms 4 is hardly the best. There are many good Brahms 4 out there. Top choices are Furtwaengler and Jochum.
As for this Celi, it sounds very promising. But I can't make a judgement until I have the chance to hear the whole piece.
nibelungensohn 3 years ago
this is a remarkable version of Brahms' fourth symphony. But it lacks the profound tragedy that only Furtwangler can conjure.
iambananananananana 3 years ago
Much agreed.
crazypianistik 3 years ago
incredible
cellestialX 3 years ago
Thank you Celi for leading us to the heart and soul of Brahms,we are forever indebted to you.
jcilwcw 3 years ago 9
Sergiu Celibidache,para muchos el mayor genio de la dirección del siglo XX,nunca se de`´o grabar.Entendía la música,como un acto único e irrepetible.Cualquier grabación o filmación desvirtuaba el espíritu del acto recreador.
debartzen 3 years ago
Ciertamente, y aun asi escuchamos lo que grabó y lo disfrutamos!
leverkuhn82 3 years ago
Furtwängler.
Bernstein, Kleiber, Celibidache, Szell,
Karajan.
lolmanerik 3 years ago 3
Do you know the story that Maria Callas was interviewed while driving in a car, and then they were listening a Classic Radio and there was Beethoven 5th. She said" This conductor don't understand Beethoven style at all, wrong.
I heard Furtwangler in Milan" it was Szell on the radio.
ilbacioditosca 3 years ago
Maria Callas said: Furtwängler is Beethoven.
dermann76 3 years ago
actually they were listening to beethoven's 8th on the radio not the 5th. and the interviewer's name was John Ardoin, a close friend of Callas. also, he wasn't interviewing her, but he was taking her to a doctor.
iambananananananana 3 years ago
Thanks for the info but Szell had to have more info like Furtwangler. Well Toscanini wanted to change the style too.
ilbacioditosca 3 years ago
Is it just me, or does celi borrow heavily from furtwangler's brahms 4 here? Maybe they just have a similar vision...
Anyway, this is amazing! I love his interpretations.
helloimapianist 3 years ago 4
Yes I have to say his interpretations is batter than Kleiber. Before i watched this, Kleiber is my favorite..now i gotta change. This is really amazing.
agathayoun 3 years ago 5
i totally agree with you, superb interpretation!
gunmenow 3 years ago
Borroing from Furtwangler is the best option possible.
It is like playing Brahms 4th with the Brahms Score right?
And the Brahms ideas.
ilbacioditosca 3 years ago
helloimapianist you are right not surprising knowing that Celi was the second in command at the BPO when Furtwangler was the conductor.
superfrognyc 3 years ago
This is wonderful. The best Brahms IV.1 I have heard.
RCBrittain 3 years ago 3
Celibidache forever... he touch my heart.
prezeus 3 years ago 2
Kleiber.
... Karajan?
yes.
yes.
:-)
foerster 3 years ago 2
Well!should I remember guys that this is a RECORDING!and Kleiber's performance is LIVE CONCERT! for me, even if i dont like this orchestra, I prefer Celibidache's version.But also others version like Mravinsky are great!
german4tea 3 years ago
@german4tea this is NOT a studio recording, its a live concert too, like Kleibers performance, Celibidache made only 4 or five studio recordings his whole live
celibi01 1 year ago
ha ha
hey Busillis! I had the exact same thoughts lol
bitchass888 3 years ago
of course this version is much better....
iurena 3 years ago
why better? the musicians are the one who sweat it, right?
romymistique 3 years ago
Better, hands down, than the Kleiber but...I like this, the Mravinsky and best, best of all, The Cleveland Orchestra under George Szell.
nannymac47 3 years ago 2
Sorry, but I have to disagree on the Cleveland/Szell recording...it should have read best, best, BEST! (Don't worry, I'm on your side!)
lvb555 3 years ago
Mravinsky's version is the best
honchunfung07 3 years ago