Total Depravity and Responsibility - John Piper

[polopowers1]

Total inability does not mean man cannot choose good. Man is not completely evil.Adam ate equally fruit good and evil. Man cannot chose God. He cannot transverse himself flesh to Spirit. Man is marred in the Image of God. Man's good is not God's righteousness.Man is not complely evil his problem is he can do good . If he could be only evil he would be easier to reach. Man can be good he cannot be Spirit life, or fail to sin. Man is powerless flesh which must sin.not evil completely.

[jarredkolvick]

i believe that what John's saying about man's moral state, and even his capacity to choose good. But the actual issue that is never discussed, is the power of the Gospel. The reason it isn't discussed, is because the Calvinist doesn't really believe in the power of the Gospel unto salvation. They believe in the power of God's extracurricular, saving effort, working with the Gospel to save the VIP's of humanity. This is heresy. The Gospel is the efficacious saving power of God.

[dougmoerhoffman]

Trying to clarify personal autonomy/moral responsibility with God's sovereignty is difficult. Mr. Piper tried, but he tottered a bit. He could've done a better job.

But he did adequately present the dilemma in the beginning. He just didn't succeed in explaining why it's wrong to object on those grounds, in my opinion.

[jarredkolvick]

one of the stupidest defenses of Total Depravity and Responsibility I've ever heard. I didn't expect such total ignorance from Piper. Outstanding.

[mr19cuda71]

As much as I am entertained by the reasoning of intellectual men, there is something about giving bible to support theories. With supporting passages, one can the look for context in the presumptions of the speaker. Without bible, you just have presumptional statements. When God found Abraham, He wasn't looking for a "good" man, because there aren't any, God was looking for a man who "Would Believe" Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righeousness!! Galatians, Romans, Genesis

[manek2020]

you are so wrong mr piper,so wrong!!!

[wawabbit]

Piper is wrong.

[wawabbit]

Being dead in spirit does not preclude you from "doing good." Lost people can do good, because God put the knowledge of right and wrong - His Law - on every man's heart. This is one of the reasons many people don't see their need for a savior - because they believe themselves to be "good." They don't do bad/evil things in their life, they think, so what is the problem? It is not until they are reminded of God's LAW, and how they've failed at keeping it, that any person knows they need Christ

[anewdayproductions]

then why call something like this an "inability" when it really is an unwillingness.

[jarredkolvick]

@anewdayproductions

exactly

[rntlee]

The idea that even though I'm "chained to a chair, but won't raise when commanded to do so because of moral inability " doesn't fix the issue. Where does the "moral inability" ultimately source from?? In this system, GOD is ultimately the locus of the moral defect in us. HE predestinated Adam's failure, and thus mankind's "moral state".

Compatibilism is absolutely a "quagmire of evasion" as William James has noted.

[RomansGalatians]

@rntlee Two Bible truths need to be read compatibly:

1. Sin comes from INSIDE of fallen man's own heart. The heart of man is the root of sin. (He's not FORCED from the outside). Thus, man is guilty of sin.

and

2. Fallen man has no power over sin. Will power cannot conquer an addiction, and man cannot change his own heart.

You must start with the Word of God as your premises, and let your reasoning flow from it. You shouldnt use your reasoning to critisize the Word.

[philipatoz]

@Romans, in light of many passages like 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9 with ALL-inclusive wordings for whom God desires to save, John 3:16-17 showing the “world” he brings salvation to is ALSO THE ONE UNDER CONDEMNATION, Matthew 5:44, Luke 10:25-37 and Mark 12:28-31 models of whom we are to love, Galatians 2:6 and Acts 10:34 revealing God shows NO personal favoritism, 1 Corinthians 13 defining WHAT love is – please explain why YOU think God decided to HATE the non-Elect BEFORE BIRTH or ANY SIN.

[magicdude44]

@RomansGalatians

Willpower overcoming an adiction is actually a pretty common occurence. Maybe you need to let personal experience help inform YOUR understanding of the bible. Your definition of humbleness is spot-on though. The problem is, if I become humble it's not actually "me" becoming. Calvinism completely blurs any real distiction between the terms "man" and "God".

[RomansGalatians]

@magicdude44 Some addictions have "control phases" where the addict is able to contain the symptoms, but will power does not get rid of it. In his pride, he manipulates everything with his hands and will, but the more he controls, the more apparent it is to everyone else that he has a problem. And frankly, such a person is often better off just using.

My main point (to which that was just an example) is that fallen man does not have power over sin.

Only God can change a man's heart.

[RomansGalatians]

@magicdude44 And yes, even that initial "humbling" cannot take place without the Holy Spirit having done a change in that person's heart.

Distiguishing between man and God: Man, totally depraved. God, Totally Holy. I do not blur the identities, but a saved man certainly is wholly DEPENDENT on God. Someone who denies that probably has a dependency problem :).

Magic, are you a Christian? Orthodox teaching denomination?

[RomansGalatians]

@rntlee To be humble means that 1) I accept personal responsibility for my sin because it is coming from INSIDE my person; and 2) I admit that I am powerless over my sin, and NEED a SAVIOR, because I cannot change my own heart.

Sure you can critique and say "Well, I'm powerless, therefore I am not responsible." But guilt only requires intent and action.

Even IF God IS guilty, doesn't mean that YOU are not.

[RomansGalatians]

Therefore, it is VITAL that fatalism is not preached, whereby God violates man's will and PHYSICALLY forces the hand of man to act. Hyper-Calvinism teaches that mess.

True Calvinists show that God works His Sovereign Plan THROUGH man. The WILL of man is the chief proof of man's wickedness, so that God is proven just and glorified in His judgment of wicked men.

[RomansGalatians]

Funny how an abortionist in defense of their action will say "it was my choice." This is their defense? Specific intent is one of the elements of first degree murder that the prosecutor bears the burden of proving. It's no defense, it is a blatant admission of the most important element of the crime.

Yet, why do they think it exonerates them? For the Humanist, the bare fact that one can physically choose exonerates.

It is when one CANNOT physically choose that he is exonerated.

[disciplesfire]

@RomansGalatians I love this comment!!! Can you help me to understand what you meant by "It is when one CANNOT physically choose that he is exonerated." Thank you!

[RomansGalatians]

@disciplesfire Hey, thanks man.

I was saying that, in a legal sense, that INTENT to act is required for a crime.

If a defense attorney can show that the person didn't intend to act, or that he was FORCED to act that way, then the person is acquitted.

For example, if a bank teller withdraws a million dollars out of a persons account without their permission, she is guilty of embezzlement.

But if a robber was holding a gun to her head and physically forcing her, she is acquitted.

[Scottles293]

clears up a lot thanks for posting : )

[12CY4U2]

I admire the intellect and reverence for God associated with extreme Calvinism, but realistically spiritual discernment, understanding, and revelation of the Person of Christ trumps your theories and gives way to the coexistance of both human volition and divine sovereignty as effective components in the salvation process, no matter how unbalanced. Mustard seed faith is indeed adequate and God does the rest. By His Grace through our faith we are saved, period.

[12CY4U2]

If I desire to rise out of the chair as you have commanded and you refuse to unchain me, is it then my fault? Who is culpable here? I suppose you chose to keep me bound and then punished me for remaining bound and seated against my will.

[12CY4U2]

However, if you tell me to get out of the chair and I want to, then you unchain me, your assisting response to my desire to do what you told me to do combines to release me from the chair. Da!

[rayh3777]

The words total depravity should never be spoken. So much confusion. WE WOULD HAVE BEEN TOTALLY DEPRAVED if it were not for God seeking us(everybody). 

Luke 19:10

For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Who is lost because of sin? ....????? Everyone. So God seeks everyone. end of story.

[paint1487]

@rayh3777 not everyone is saved though... so God failed? Who can resist God? The answer is no one. So if God is trying to save everyone, how can anyone be lost? In context you can tell that in Luke 19:10, Jesus is speaking specifically about Zacchaeus when he says lost. The passage wouldn't say Jesus came to seek and to save the lost if it was for everyone because saving the lost(as a plural) would imply their being sought. instead, it'd say like, Jesus came to save the lost. seeking is specific

[matzat1]

i think the first thing we need to do is establish what sciptures clearly state that a man is morally incapable of believing God. Jesus clearly sets forth that man must believe the Gospel. Mark 16:16 - "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved but whoever does not believe will be damned."

[chase123100]

amen

[FillTheirVoid]

Well the key is simply to believe that when God says we're guilty ... we really are guilty.

[WaywardNowHome]

i believed in the total depravity of man and how we are completely and utterly unable to come to God unless He regenerates us first. this clip from Piper truly helped me to understand exactly how God could command us to do something we (morally) cannot do yet still be just in punishment.

thank you so much!

[diligentile]

amen brother