- 1)your jesus is brother to lucifer. Christian's Jesus is his creator. 2)your jesus is exalted man. Christian's Jesus is God Himself 3)your jesus born of virgin birth but impregnated by immortal man. Christian's Jesus - God incarnate begotten of the Holy Spirit 4)your god attained his "godhood" Christian's God has always been God. 5)your jesus' blood doesn't cover all sins. Christian's Jesus' blood covers ALL sin. - Your beliefs are in direct contradiction with the Word of GoD
@jebradec1 WHATS FUNNY ABOUT MORMON LIES....................MORMONS ARE GOING TO HELL BECAUSE THEY WORSHIP LUCIFER THRU MASONIC SYMBOLS AND RITUALS...............WAKE UP............MORMON LUCIFERIANISM IS STAREING YOU IN YOUR FACEEEEEEEEEEEE..............FREEMASONRY IS SATANIC.........
Hello Greg, I like your video very much. Its nearly two years old, but I saw it again today and its in my favourites now. We all should share our personal testimonies in this way you did. Than you again, my best wishes for you and your family.
exmo81, I just read a lot of your comments and after about an hour it is nice read one that is actually kind and not mean spirited (BTW - what do those churches that claim to be Christian do to you guys?!).
do you guys believe that the bible and the book of mormon is in harmony with each other, and if so... there would never be contradictions or fighting against each other?
Yahushua1: "do you guys believe that the bible and the book of mormon is in harmony with each other..."
*Yes, we believe both books were written by true prophets of God and their teachings are in perfect harmony with each other. The only problem is when we try to interpret some verses and then find out that other verses contradict OUR INTERPRETATION. I always stress this when people show me verses in the Bible that they say contradict each other.
PolishA-PT 1:"Jer 17:9 says HEART is deceitful above ALL things & DESPARATELY wicked."
I am not sure how this relates to what I used Jer 17:9 for.
I used Jer 17:9 to show that the heart/seat of emotions are not trustworthy & shouldn't be the standard to test- it's "DECEITFUL above ALL things". That includes the mind. The subjective/heart/emotions is less reliable than the mind. ALL 3 tests are objective, and the use of the mind is commended (Acts 17:11), and upheld as good and divinely approved.
PolishA-PT 1-PA:"But the fact remains that the current Bible does contain errors. ..Bible is inspired..Truth shall make us free"
The over 90% accuracy doesn't prove many plain/precious parts & covenants were taken out of Bible & I can show MUCH worse changes in Bk of Command's vs D&C than the Bible. NO proof of the volume & severity of the LDS charges in BOM or JST. The 3/2008 Ensign (Packer) also claimed word atonement was taken out w/no evidence. Such a cavalier belittling by the LDS Church
The Bible is 66 books. Joseph Smith, in his JST, says "The Songs of Solomon are not inspired writings." (LDS KJV Song 1:1 JST note). What's left is 65 books OF the Bible, but these are supposedly horribly hacked & corrupted by the Gentile G&A Church (1 Nephi 13) & seeing the severity of the changes JSmith made to the Bible, so when LDS say the Bible is inspired, etc, the real doctrine underlies the nice words: The Bible isn't inspired, only most of the 65
Both cannot have the biblical concept of Jesus (2 Cor 11), so both groups cannot be a part of Christianity. Both groups teach a very different gospel & way to be 'saved', so both groups cannot be a part of Christianity (Gal 1). The NT does not have any Christian outside of the true body/Church- 1 Cor 12:13, etc.
PolishA-PT 2:PA:"And I wish other Christians stop worshiping the writings of ancient prophets mixed with alterations made by scribes, monks and false priests"
I wish LDS would stop worshiping their leaders words as the Interpreters of the Bible, effectively placing LDS Church over the Bible. Christians do NOT WORSHIP the Bible. Please stop distorting. Worshiping God is obeying HIS word, BELIEVING his word & not denigrating it as LDS Church have done for 170ish years.
PolishA-PT 3:PA:"And I wish other Christians stop worshiping the writings of ancient prophets mixed with alterations made by scribes, monks and false priests"
Until U can fully grasp & explain 1 Nephi 13's chronology & how the OT & NT JST is shown by actual evidence, all U have is assertion. The BOM & JST are shown false & LDS attacking those who preserved the Bible is unfounded.
PolishA-PT 4: PA:"and start worshiping the God of Israel who inspired prophets to write the Bible. What is wrong in believing the writings of prophets without the uninspired alterations?"
The God of Israel said there's no God before/after him & said "I know *not* ANY" other Gods (Isa 43-47). Deifying man & humanizing God is not worshiping the true God of Israel (Deut 13, Psalm 90:2)
PolishA-PT 5: PA:"What is wrong in believing the writings of prophets without the uninspired alterations?"
U haven't answered the real points of what I posted on 1 Nephi 13. U place a poor idea of God's ability to preserve what he inspired. It was so corrupt for 1,800 years & only restored for 170ish years? LDS have NO evidence for LDS Moses, Gen 50 or John 1. U have NO evidence of the severity of what BOM claims, so it IS wrong to mistake assertion as restoration
PolishA-PT 1:PA:"It's not the feeling..It's the REVELATION. It's the difference between the Pharisees who XX vs...who finds out who Jesus really is BY HIS OWN EXPERIENCE" D&C 9 is feeling. I find it false & offensive U keep giving false analogies to Pharisees. Testing by scripture isn't Pharisaical-this isn't them. Philip the Evangelist opened scripture to a non-Christian & Paul kept meeting w/Jews to PROVE Jesus as the Christ by scripture. I follow his example, not subjectivism, as the standard
PolishA-PT 2:Matthew uses the Jewish Bible many times to prove Jesus as Messiah. Paul repeatedly went to Jews to PROVE Jesus as Messiah by scripture & reasoning:Acts 9:22; 13:14-49; 17:1-4,10-13; 18:4-5, 19, 28; 19:8; 26:21-23, 27; 28:23-24, 31. Maybe Romans 3:9. He reasoned & used scriptures to prove his beliefs were true. He did this from the start to near the end of Acts before King Agrippa. It even went to the very last chapter. He promoted using logic & scripture. He was an EX-Pharisee, BTW
PolishA-The difference between the NT church & LDS Church is that the LDS Church has a prophet/president at the head. NT church didn't. NT church has the apostles as the top leaders. LDS Church as a prophet above the 12 LDS apostles. The NT church had more freedom than LDS Church. The NT church has evangelists as those who evangelized the non-Christians as the Greek word & Acts 8 shows. LDS Church turned it into an OLD patriarch who gives blessings to the converted
PolishA-"Acts 17:11 says we test all ..by the already written scriptures. D&C 21:5 ... [etc]".
PA:"You should test a person who claims to be sent by God, but once God confirmed his claim - what's the point of testing him every time he utters a word?"
ME: The initial tests from the LDS Church is subjective & it doesn't follow Acts 17:11 & doesn't have a need for Deut 13 & 18. The Bereans still tested an apostles' words by scripture, not the other way around, or by a feeling.
PolishA-PA:"It's actually very simple. It's like the difference between the US Constitution and the Congressional acts or bills. They are all laws, but you must agree that they carry different weight."
The LDS I refer to said ONLY the SW are AUTHORITATIVE & DISMISSED the rest, which is FALSE. It's NOT like the Constitution & Bill of Rights
When it's official, the LDS Church is accountable for it. Do LDS hold the LDS Church leaders to LDS scriptures? Bill of Rights is equal to the Constitution.
PolishA-PT 1:PA:"The ancient apostles spent a lot of time and energy making sure the Church is united in doctrine and practice."
A FEW apostles addressed specific issues, not as many as LDS Church does. The NT church also had more freedom in the churches than the LDS Church. Rom 14 & Col 2:14-17 says there's freedom concerning sabbaths, what Christians eat & drink, some esteem 1 day above others, some don't & there's freedom there, but LDS Church mandates a Sabbath, forbids coffee/tea, etc
PolishA-PT 2:PA:"As Paul said: 'One Lord, one faith, one baptism'(Eph. 4:5)"
If they have false doctrine on essential basics on Jesus(2 Cor 11), they don't have NT's 1 Lord. One faith isn't all details, but faith in the NT Jesus(1:15,19; 2:8-9). One baptism is spiritual(1 Cor 12:13). NT gospel Paul preached is death of NT Christ for sin, burial, & resurrection (1 Cor 15:1-4), LDS Church adds works-water baptism, temple works (3 Nephi 27, The Life and Teachings of Jesus & His Apostles, p 418/419
PolishA-PT 1"The 3 tests you keep referring to are valid, but it is important to have the correct understanding of the meaning of the scripture before you start judging someone by it." ME: I do & U haven't shown I don't. UR Pharisee example is invalid. U have to show me I am wrong on those 3 as tests, etc./, which U haven't done, before U can parallel me with the Pharisees.
PolishA-PT 2: On 2 Peter 1:20-21- I shared the context, wording & Greek on the 1 verse U used, plus the other U didn't. Do U see that UR use of this passage is wrong? What does the text say? As U said to me, "it is important to have the correct understanding of the meaning of the scripture before you start judging someone by it" It refers to HOW the scriptures were GIVEN/ORIGINATED.
PolishA-PT 3:"2 Peter 1:20"-Context of v 21 shows that UR view is wrong. No scripture is GIVEN of any..but holy men of God were MOVED by the Holy Spirit" to WRITE. It teaches scripture is not the WRITER'S opinion, but came from God. It's NOT speaking of what the READER thinks they MEAN, but HOW they ORIGINATED- verse 21 teaches:"but men MOVED BY the Holy Spirit SPOKE from GOD" (NASB)
It doesn't evade Acts 17:11, Deut 13/18. It doesn't enthrone feelings over testing by already written scripture
PolishA-PT 3:"2 Peter 1:20". The context would show that UR view is wrong. No scripture is GIVEN of any .. but holy men of God were MOVED by the Holy Spirit" to WRITE. It teaches scripture is not the WRITER'S opinion, but came from God. It is NOT speaking of what the READER thinks they MEAN, but HOW they ORIGINATED- "but men MOVED BY the Holy Spirit SPOKE from GOD" (NASB)
It doesn't evade Acts 17:11, Deut 13/18. It doesn't enthrone feelings over testing by already written scripture
PolishA-PA:"This is how it was with me: First I was impressed with the missionaries' conduct so I started listening to them. Everything they said about Joseph Smith was in harmony with the Bible. They and Joseph passed the test. I was then ready to ask God, so I did."
I can quote Ensign, etc., to show the answer they think is divine is the subjective. You judged the LDS Church by the Bible? Why did U pray, and what do U consider was the answer? D&C 9/Moroni 10 use the subjective.
PolishA-PT 1:"Jer 17:9 says HEART is deceitful above ALL things & DESPARATELY wicked."
I am not sure how this relates to what I used Jer 17:9 for.
I used Jer 17:9 to show that the heart/seat of emotions are not trustworthy & shouldn't be the standard to test- it's "DECEITFUL above ALL things". That includes the mind. The subjective/heart/emotions is less reliable than the mind. ALL 3 tests are objective, and the use of the mind is commended (Acts 17:11), and upheld as good and divinely approved.
PolishA-PT 2:PA:"Hm... Let me flip a coin... Or - perhaps I should assume that God knows the answer? Should I ask him?"
ME: U seek to squeeze out of the simple & plain 1 Nephi 13 chronology & then conclude based on going around the text of the BOM. There is NO coin flipping needed. God works well through our minds & Bible gives tests that LDS don't seem to want to really obey. Jer 17:9 says HEART is deceitful above ALL things & DISPARATELY wicked. Any prayer doesn't negate the 3 GOD-given tests
PolishA-PT 2:PA:"Hm... Let me flip a coin... Or - perhaps I should assume that God knows the answer? Should I ask him?"
ME: U seek to squeeze out of the simple & plain 1 Nephi 13 chronology & then conclude based on going around the text of the BOM. There is NO coin flipping needed. God works well through our minds & Bible gives tests that LDS don't seem to want to really obey. Jer 17:9 says HEART is deceitful above ALL things & DISPARATELY wicked. Any prayer doesn't negate the 3 GOD-given tests
PolishA-PT 1: PA:"Many plain and precious parts could have consisted of 0.01% of the Bible before they were taken out."
U keep refusing to see the specific chronology & the details of what 1 Nephi 13 is teaching about the entire Bible, NOT just the NT portion. U said I didn't give evidence, but I did & I did it again. The particular points I brought out from the text were not even addressed, never mind addressed fully.
PolishA-PT2:"LDS Moses..Summary:"Enoch preaches the gospel-The plan of salvation revealed to ADAM", .. Moses,..chapter 6"
PA:"Do you have any evidence that anything in ch. 6 or the words you quoted are not true or that were not part of Moses' original record? If not- are you just going to make a decision by flipping a coin?"
ME: My point is that 1 Nephi 13 isn't limiting it to the NT. Please read them again. DSS don't have Moses & BOM says Bible was pure when the JEWS of DD 300BC-70 AD had them
PolishA-PT3-ME:"I think it is clear that BOM 1 Nephi 13 includes OT & NT."
PA:"without evidence this is just your wishful thinking."
I GAVE evidence-did U read it? OT contains covenants made to ISRAEL & prophecies by the PROPHETS (BOM 1 Ne 13:23)
Gentile G&AC had BOTH OT & NT. History is plain. OT had the gospel according to LDS Moses in PofGP, JS said was part of original Genesis. Moses 6 Summary:"Enoch preaches the gospel-The plan of salvation revealed to ADAM", read all of Moses, esp chapt 6
PolishA-PT4-Even if I believed BOM 1 Nephi 13 is limited to New Testament, we have the Papyrus Bodmer II, ca. 200 AD, w/a good portion of John-NO evidence for JST, esp JST John 1. Rylands Greek Papyrus 457, ca. 125-130 AD, includes John 18:38-still no evidence of the JST. I think it is clear that BOM 1 Nephi 13 includes OT & NT, as I have shared. Even IF it isn't, these are SO close to the 1st century, that earliest NT manuscripts give zero for the SEVERITY of the BOM charges & no help for JST
PolishA-PT5-U quoted 1 Nephi 13:24, but not vs 23 that shows it's more than just the NT, & U didn't include vs 25, where it says the Jews had it "in PURITY", THEN the Gentile Great & Abominable Church got it & THEN took many parts & covenants out. The verse right before & after the 1 verse U used helps to clarify & explain this issue. The book included the gospel, but covenants made to THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL & prophecies of prophets.
PolishA-PT6-The Dead Sea Scrolls says they were PURE in the hands of the Jews before the Gentile church got the Bible. The DSS doesn't have the JST changes- LDS Moses, Gen 50, John 1, JS-Matt (NT Matt 24), etc. DDS came from the period of the Bible's PURITY before the corruption alleged in BOM's 1 Nephi 13. JST & BOM fails since there is not JST in any of the manuscripts, including the NT Rylands & Bodmer Papyrus & OT DSS. PURE means it wasn't corrupted at that time
PolishA- Please note some are repeats- use the newest post if you see a duplicate.
I wonder if we should continue this by YouTube email. All of the hoops In have to go through to post these is very time consuming & I am getting to bed waaay too late for me. Take care.
PolishA-PA:"this is just another characteristics that we have in common with the Church of [JC] of Ancient Saints"
The issue was it doesn't make any difference that there are different non-LDS churches.
LDS Church has a stronger hand of control over it's one monolithic organization & Mormon splinter groups are OUTSIDE. NT church had doctrinal/moral problems, but a PART of the church (1 Cor, Rev 1-3). The LDS Church keeps a tight ship. Evangelicalism is closer to the NT church than LDS Church.
Harry(01-15):"NT church had doctrinal/moral problems, but a PART of the church (1 Cor, Rev 1-3). The LDS Church keeps a tight ship. Evangelicalism is closer to the NT church than LDS Church."
*That's not the feeling I get when I read the NT (perhaps we use different translations - just teasing). The ancient apostles spent a lot of time and energy making sure the Church is united in doctrine and practice. As Paul said: "One Lord, one faith, one baptism"(Eph. 4:5)
PolishA-PT 1-ME:"Harry - "the LDS Church doesn't just take the Standard Works (Bible/BOM/D&C/PofGP) as inspired, authoritative, or binding."
PA:"Yes, it's true, but there is a difference."
ME: I brought that up as a reply to you. Mormons have told me that only the Standard Works are authoritative, sounding like they want to conveniently dismiss anything they can that is quoted, even if it is published by the LDS Church, which is false. UR D&C just further proves my point over theirs
Harry(01-15):"Mormons have told me that only the Standard Works are authoritative, sounding like they want to conveniently dismiss anything they can that is quoted, even if it is published by the LDS Church, which is false."
*It's actually very simple. It's like the difference between the US Constitution and the Congressional acts or bills. They are all laws, but you must agree that they carry different weight.
PolishA-PT 2-PA:"The Lord declared: "For [the living prophet's] word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith."(D&C 21:5) You might say: "How convenient" and I say - Yes, very convenient."
ME:Acts 17:11 says we test all a claimed living prophet says by the already written scriptures. D&C 21:5 negates that. If claimed scripture says we take his words as equal to God's words, we really don't obey Acts 17:11 to see "WHETHER" what he says is true or not
Harry(01-15):"Acts 17:11 says we test all a claimed living prophet says by the already written scriptures. D&C 21:5 negates that. If claimed scripture says we take his words as equal to God's words, we really don't obey Acts 17:11 to see "WHETHER" what he says is true or not"
*Yes and no. You should test a person who claims to be sent by God, but once God confirmed his claim - what's the point of testing him every time he utters a word? Things would move to slowly this way.
PolishA-PT 3-ME:"The Lord didn't set up his Church to complicate our lives but to improve them. His house is a house of order."
ME: The LDS Church is overly controlled & a picture of the NT church with all of it's doctrinal & behavioral, moral problems demonstrates that it wasn't run as a corporation & well controlled as the LDS Church is and does.
Harry(01-15):"a picture of the NT church...demonstrates that it wasn't run as...the LDS Church is..."
*I don't see any difference. Jesus run his Church through inspiration given to the apostles. The apostles were the final authorities in the NT Church. Large portion of their epistles were corrections to the false doctr. and practices that were introd. to the branches of the Church by apostate Christians. The apostles did try to control the affairs of the Church, because they were put in charge.
PolishA-PT 1:PA:"I would agree if I didn't know that you are only talking about 3 short fragments of the Bible."
They were given AS TESTS. UR topics are NOT. If LDS Church doesn't pass there, then they don't have a false foundation. UR topics mentioned are NOT given AS TESTS. Acts 17:11, Deut 13/18 ARE. Bible gives TESTS. Those should be first & foremost. If U have feelings as the test, then U violate the 3 biblical tests. Acts 17:11 sets the tools to use in ANY issue. Deut has 2 specific tests
PolishA-PT 2:PA:"I think the whole Book shows us the standard we should use to measure JS's claims."
NONE of the Bible teaches feelings as the determinative test on what is truth & error. When the bible gives us actual, specific tests, those who claim to be Christians should not minimize them by calling them fragments. ALL the topics U gave are subject to Acts 17:11- U don't find the truth/error by seeking a feeling, or dismissing or compromising Acts 17:11, etc
Harry(01-15):"U don't find the truth/error by seeking a feeling"
*It's not the feeling that we invite people to seek. It's the REVELATION. It's the difference between the Pharisees who look for Moses' writings to prove that Jesus is a sinner vs. an uneducated, ILLITERATE, blind beggar who finds out who Jesus really is BY HIS OWN EXPERIENCE.
PolishA-PT 3:PA:"Jesus' church is built on rock of revelation, is led by living apostles and prophets, has priesthood, high standards, etc. Who else passes the test?"
Those are not given as tests. Acts 17:11, Deut 13/ 18 are. If a church fails the first 3, then those are tests that show it's in serious error.
I can speak to all of those issues, if U want to continue by email
LDS Church's true test is feelings, so they are wrong on the biblical tests
This hymn is called "May the Good Lord Bless and Keep You" and it's sang by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir (Love Is Spoken Here album from 2005 - probably the awesomest album by the MTC, these are all children's hymns).
Sister Lewis from Aspen Grove, Utah - thank you for this wonderful gift for our children!
PolishA-"There were times when I really wanted to do something my way, but the answer was "no". Joel's prophesy is being fulfilled: "I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy..."(Joel 2:28). DON'T MISS IT! You can be part of it!"
Claiming to get a divine no is not Joel 2. It's set to a certain time & things- dreams, visions. Also, Joel has a context (vss 19-17), vs 28: "And AFTERWARD"- after the things in vss 21-17.
Harry - "Claiming to get a divine no is not Joel 2"
*I wasn't trying to prove anything. I was mostly trying to help you understand that there is nothing wrong or fishy with the claim that people receive revelations, prophesy, etc. After all - God did prophesy the days will come. And I am saying - they came and it's wonderful. That's all.
PolishA-PA on Joel 2-:"I was mostly trying to help you understand that there is nothing wrong or fishy with the claim that people receive revelations, prophesy, etc. After all -God did prophesy the days will come. And I am saying-they came and it's wonderful. That's all."
-Christians don't deny it. Joel doesn't say revelations,new scripture. It says prophecy, dreams, visions. I can believe Joel 2 & be non-LDS. MILLIONS of Christians do. Prophecy can also telling forth/exhorting/comfort-1 Cor 14
PolishA-YouTube scrambles posts- please read through the most recent 2-3 pages of posts. I see some of my posts in a row, then I see several of your posts until mine are mingled with yours. YouTube really should revamp their website like a Yahoo group, or Google Group. They are MUCH more reliable & organized! Take care- Happy New Year to you and your family over in Poland!
The Bible was good enough for the first 1,938 years of the church, why would God need a flimflam artist like Joseph Smith to bring "corrections" to it? If the Bible can't be trusted, neither can God and we need not fear Him or care what He says.
"The Bible was good enough" - Was it? I don't think those thousands who were burned at the stake, hundreds of thousands whose heads were cut off and millions who live right now in "Christian" civilization but are afraid to go out after dark would agree that the Bible was enough.
Where is the "unity of the faith" - Paul wrote about in Eph. 4:13? We have literally thousands of churches who use the Bible but each has different beliefs.
We need all God has given - including modern revelations.
Well, the people who did those things obviously were not Christian. The Bible lays down very specific guidelines for how a person is to live, speak, think and how they are to treat other people. Nothing was lost, so nothing needed to be restored. If God's word was lost, then it is not God's word, and there is no God. Think about what the word holy means, and then tell me God's word is corrupted...
It is very simple. God is holy, i.e. is incapable of mistakes. God is sovereign, i.e. all powerful and all knowing, therefore His word is as holy and powerful as He is. The Bible calls God's word "alive and powerful, and sharper than any 2 edged sword", therefore it is not just words on pages, but is a living force that NO HUMAN is able or allowed to pervert. Yes, some have made translations which were perverted, but if the originals were perverted, then God is not God. God's word is His bond.
I see your point. However, we must remember - God has given men agency. He can give us His word, but we can either (1)accept it, we can (2)reject it, or we can (3)choose the parts that we like and the rest ignore. He doesn't stop to be God if we do any of the last two.
BTW - You should also know that we (LDS) emphasize that the Bible is the word of God. We are aware of some changes that have been made, but we do believe that - like you said - the Bible is God's bond.
free agency never appears in the Bible. The term free will does, but free will only allows us to choose our eternal destiny. Man can not exercise his free will to topple that which God has done, or to undo what God said could not be undone. We can translate His word incorrectly, but we can not make it impossible for His message of salvation to be lost to the world. The original Greek & Hebrew have shown themselves time & time again to be trustworthy, & they denounce many of the LDS doctrines.
1. "We can translate His word incorrectly, but we can not make it impossible for His message of salvation to be lost to the world." - sounds great but no such doctrine is found in the Bible. If so - where?
2. "The original Greek & Hebrew..." - what original? NO ORIGINAL WRITING OF THE BIBLE ARE AVAILABLE IN THE WORLD TODAY. There are more than 5000 ancient manuscripts of the NT - no two of them are identical.
First, you must understand that scribes in the new testament times were still a lot like they were in the Old testament times, i.e. they would destroy manuscripts when they were worn out and used. So, the fact that we have any remains of the originals is a miracle! However, I still revert to my original statement about God's holiness and inability to fail at His task of spreading His truth. What proof do Mormons have of the gold plates? We have much more than you.
*"the fact that we have any remains of the originals is a miracle!" - I agree 100%
*"inability to fail at His task of spreading His truth" - we do have free will. If I throw away my copy of the Bible it will only prove my stupidity - not God's powerlessness. Plus - this is an extra-biblical doctrine
*"What proof do Mormons have of the gold plates?" - God's testimony spoken to every person who seeks truth
*"We have much more than you." - Let me remind you - we have the Bible AND BofM 8O)
You miss the point. The oldest complete New Testament is only 1 generation removed from the time of the apostles. By that time, the church was well established, and would not have accepted any new doctrines or changes to the existing ones. It would be like someone now, 178 years later, trying to add a book to the Book Of Mormon, Mormons would know instantly if it were incorrect, because the actual Book of Mormon still exists in its original form. We have archaeology to back us, you have nothing
*You can't compare 100AD to 2000AD. Now anyone can have access to pretty much any book. Back then - only a few priests, monks, etc.
*The fact remains - NO original manuscript is available. 5000+ ancient manuscripts - all differ from each other.
*"We have archaeology to back us, you have nothing" - Let me remind you again - we DO believe the Bible. We also have archeology. We are on the same side as far as the Bible is concerned. We also have the Book of Mormon.
PolishA-When apologeticsman asked what proof is there of the gold plates, he was asking for objective evidence, not subjective belief. U didn't share objective evidence. UR answer "to EVERY person who seeks truth" seems to say all who don't convert, wasn't seeking truth. Many truly seek truth & do not become Mormon, even so many who check it out.
* You are right - I didn't give him any "objective evidence". I don't have any but frankly - I don't think he needs any from me. The evidence he can receive from God is enough - and much more powerful than any golden plates, etc.
* Ok - so I will show you the gold plates after you show me Moses' tablets. 8O)
* No - I don't think that if a person is not a Mormon it means that he/she isn't a truth seeker. But I do believe that every person who seeks it will eventually find it in the LDS Church.
PolishA-"No - I don't think that if a person is not a Mormon it means that he/she isn't a truth seeker. But I do believe that EVERY person who seeks it WILL eventually find it in the LDS Church."
So, if a person doesn't find it in the LDS/Mormon Church, then that person wasn't really seeking it? You did say "WILL".
John explained it very well (he didn't try to be politically correct though):
"We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error" (1 John 4:6)
PolishA-REPOST: Apolog said:"we have much more than you" in manuscripts of the Bible than the Book of Mormon. You said Mormons have both books. That's true, but the manuscript evidence for the Bible doesn't help Mormonism directly, since many don't have the BOM, but do believe in the Bible. For the LDS Church to be true, it's Mormon-produced scripture must be tested/examined (2 Thess 5:21) by written scriptures we already have (Acts 17:11), & what God, Jesus, gospel LDS have (Deut 18, 2 Cor 11)
(1 Thess 5:21) - If you ever talk to the missionaries you will hear them saying something like this: "But don't believe us, find out for yourself." I know the Bible and the Book of Mormon are true because I did put them to test. Not the Pharisee-like test, but the James-like. I read, pondered, compared and finally I asked God for wisdom.
(Acts 17:11) - I do search my scriptures daily. All faithful LDS do.
(Deut 18) - Joseph Smith passed the test. His prophecies were fulfilled.
"What is the "Pharisee-like test"? Please explain and define clearly."
I foresaw your question (I am kidding - of course) and posted a few days ago this video:
watch?v=VzKdiH06fKg
Basically - the Pharisees looked for fault in what Jesus said or taught. They compared his teachings and deeds with their understand. of the scriptures. The result was always the same - another prove He didn't come from God and another reason to condemn Him. This is what a lot of "Christians" do today with J.Smith.
PolishA- BIBLE teaches to know truth and expose error, & test spiritual claims by written scripture (Acts 17:11, Deut 13,18). You oversimplify the NT's Pharisees to point to those who disagree with the LDS Church & share why. Pharisees STRAYED FROM scripture to ADD their own commandments to what was considered mandatory. What church adds a mandatory abstaining from drinking coffee to get to the temple as a requirement for celestial salvation? Exposing error & warning, sharing isn't Pharisaical
PolishA-On your 1 Thess 5:21 comments: Mormon missionaries say to find out for yourself, but they emphasis the subjective & emotional. They & the LDS Church uses BOM Moroni 10:3-5, D&C 9 as how to find out the truth. Besides the fact that it's the BOM telling U how to find out that the BOM is (allegedly) true, it deflects from true examination. You also separated 1 Thess 5:21 from Acts 17:11. Thess says examine (Greek of KJV "test") & Acts informs us on how to test.
PolishA- U:"(Acts 17:11) - I do search my scriptures daily. All faithful LDS do." I connected it with 1 Thess 5:21, to examine all things. The point of Acts 17:11 is not JUST to study. It says (NKJV):"[the Bereans] searched the Scriptures daily to find out WHETHER these things WERE so." They didn't force Paul's words into pseudo-agreeing, & didn't use Paul's words to interpret scripture, they searched to see WHETHER his words were true OR FALSE. The Christian standard is scripture, not leaders
PolishA-"(Deut 18)-Joseph Smith passed the test. His prophecies were fulfilled." I have read both sides. One of the most famous 'prophecies' said to be from Smith is the Rocky Mountain prophecy. It has been in the official Ensign 11/2008 (Ballard), etc. However, there's NO solid evidence, if any, he ever made that prophecy. It was added to the manuscript in much smaller writing (CWofM). Defenses I have read come up empty. Besides, in Deut 13 a crucial test is the concept of God a prophet teaches
(2 Cor 11) - This is a great chapter - one of many evidences in the New Testament that the apostasy was coming. The false prophets and teachers did come and did alter the truth. This is why God sent the prophet J. Smith to restore the same gospel that Paul and other apostles.
John saw an "angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth" (Revelation 14:6) Why would God send an anger with the gospel if it was already present on earth?
PolishA-In your comments on 2 Cor 11, you ignored why I used it. It says there's ANOTHER Jesus & gospel, and the advocates are in Satan's service. The LDS Church likes to say LDS are Christians & non-LDS are too, 'we're Christians, you're Christians'. However, this is anti-biblical. 2 Cor 11 speaks of a false Jesus & gospel. LDS Church teaches that Jesus is one of many Gods, spirit offspring of Heavenly Father & Heavenly Mother, as are all of us & Satan, and BECAME A God, as did the Father
PolishA-You quote 1 verse out of it's context. I don't see the context of Rev 14 fitting the early 1800's. 2) "Then I saw ANOTHER angel flying in THE MIDST OF heaven.. SAYING with a loud voice, 'Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him [etc]'" (vs 7). The DEFINITION of the message is given, and it isn't Mormonism. I checked what the LDS Church claims by scripture (Acts 17:11) & the LDS view doesn't fit the content & context.
PolishA- In your mere quotation, you do not explain the specifics of my posts, and you do not explain what you think the verse means, and how it applies to my specific points & passages *I* use. Please deal with each of the Bible passages I use. Skipping mine & just quoting another does not answer the texts I used.
PolishA- The term, politically correct is used by anyone who wants to use it for their viewpoint, but doesn't prove anything. 1 John 4:6 is not 'politically incorrect' with Bible-based Christians. My view isn't the 'PC' view today. Subjectivism is, using emoptions & subjectivism as the standard of truth is, which the LDS/Mormon Church heavily relies on (Ensign, D&C 9, etc).
PolishA-Apologeticsman: "we have much more than you" in manuscripts of the Bible than the Book of Mormon. You said Mormons have both books. That's true, however, the manuscript evidence for the Bible doesn't help Mormonism directly, since many don't have the BOM, but do believe in the Bible. For the LDS Church to be true, it's Mormon-produced scripture must be tested/examined (2 Thess 5:21) by written scriptures we already have (Acts 17:11), & what God, Jesus, gospel LDS have (Deut 18, 2 Cor 11)
"For the LDS Church to be true, it's Mormon-produced scripture must be tested/examined... by written scriptures we already have"
* Yes, and the modern scriptures perfectly pass the test. The problem is that people usually compare THEIR INTERPRETATION of the Bible with what they read in the Book of Mormon. This is exactly what the Pharisees did and so they rejected the Messiah (I will send you a video with an example of this in the New Testament).
PolishA-U claim the modern LDS scriptures pass the test, but I have not seen this yet. To say the problem is people's interpretation of the bible is compared w/BOM is faulty thinking. Unless UR mind is blank on a passage, EVERYONE has interpretation. The test is what's correct? That takes more than following leaders. To compare them w/Pharisees is wrong & distorts reality. Acts 17:11 says to use the written scriptures as the standard to test leaders, not the other way around.
PolishA-What apologeticsman means is that Bible translations must not make the essential salvation message to be lost, which is true, and the numerous Bible translations have kept the New Testament/biblical message and way of salvation intact. I can easily find it in ANY Bible translation published.
PolishA- The essential message of the Bible is follow prophets? The essential message of salvation is follow prophets? Christians would say the Bible's essential message is Jesus, prophecied & fulfilled. You have turned it into an organizational leadership message.
Actual Christians should, I would say would, know the Bible is Person-centered from cover to cover, and it isn't earthly prophets.
It is Jesus. The essential message of salvation is Jesus, and what he did, according to the Bible.
PolishA-How can U agree with me? I also said the manuscript evidence shows the message of salvation has NOT been lost from the Bible manuscripts. I also specified that it is the essential message of SALVATION. The essential salvation message of the Bible is NOT to follow claimed prophets. The Bible's gospel of salvation is not as the LDS/Mormon Church teaches. The Bible never lost the salvation message. Apologeticsman is right.
"How can U agree with me?" - Well... sorry - I do agree that the essential message of the Bible was preserved.
* The central figure of the Gospel is Jesus - no question about that. The problem is that if you, me and 1000 other Christians met to discuss what the Gospel means we would hear 1002 dif. opinions.
* The Bible totally solves the problem. It contains countless of examp. that show the import. of following true prophets and reject. those who have no God's authority to interpret scriptur.
PolishA-1) What I meant is that the essentials of the gospel were preserved, not just some of them. Do you believe the full gospel is in the Bible as we now have it through the manuscripts? 2) Do you believe the 66 books of the bible are over 99% accurate to the original manuscripts, preserved by God?
PolishA-U said the essential message was following prophets. This was a reply to my comments concerning one of the essential/necessary doctrines of Christianity is the gospel, & this is fully preserved in the New Testament of the Bible. Following prophets-is this the essential/NECESSARY message of the gospel? You now say the "central figure" of the Bible is Jesus. I did not ask, or comment on the central *figure*, but necessary message of the gospel, & now that the essential *message* is Jesus.
PolishA- Actually, the NEW Covenant (Testament) scriptures have apostles as the top leaders, not a prophet, as in the LDS Church (1 Cor 12:28, etc). The Bible also has objective tests for those who preach and claim they are 'anointed'- test by written scriptures (Acts 17:11), which is far from Pharisaical, what concept of God do they promote (Deut 13), and a 100% accurate record of prophecy (Deut 18).
PolishA- U shared: "following true prophets and reject. those who have no God's authority to interpret scriptur.". So, true prophets have the authority to interpret scripture for the church & its members? Then Acts 17:11 isn't true. Written scriptures are the standard. The NT does not show a prophet as the worldwide head of the entire church, but are as Agabus in Acts. NO church prophet divinely interpreting for us.
PolishA-PT 5: There were even more radical and substantial changes to the D&C & Pearl of Great Price. The D&C/Pearl have more radical changes than the Bible- and with so FEW manuscripts. Even the Joseph Smith Translation shows changes in it, sometimes revising the same material several times. With so few manuscripts for LDS-specific scriptures, the Bible comes out much better with its 1,000s of years than the BOM/D&C/PoGP/JST that have only been published for about 170 years.
"There were even more radical and substantial changes to the D&C & Pearl of Great Price..."
* You can come to this conclusion after reading the Anti-Mormon garbage. This is why I always encourage people to check things out and think for themselves. I guarantee that after you learn about the corrections that were made in those books (most of them were commas, periods, etc.) - you will no longer trust those who distort the truth.
PolishA-PT 2: Please tell me how much you have studied ALL of the changes in the Book of Commandments/D&C & Pearl of Great Price. How do you know you've seen ALL of the changes? U "guarantee" when I see most are commas & periods, "you will no longer trust those who distort the truth." I have, however, seem much more than how you minimize most, & miss much, and it is not those who give textual evidence that I can check who "distort the truth". UR asertion isn't even close to the truth
PolishA-PT 1:To reject literature that you disagree with as "anti-Mormon garbage", call them Pharisees, & assume U know what I have done, read, or seen is pretty bad. Dealing with evidence, not assertion & accusation will be much more productive. You gave NO evidence. *I* have SEEN photocopies, and evidence. I HAVE the reprints of the 1833 Book of Commandments/1835 Doctrine & Covenants. If you think most changes were commas & periods, then U need to "check things out and think for yourself"
* The reason why I assumed you rely on the anti-Mormon garbage is because I have heard similar accusations before and I know they are unfounded. The reason why I call the anti-Mormon publications "garbage" is because I am familiar with them and they are FAR from true scholarship. Their main goal is to discourage you and me from learning the truth about Mormonism. They cannot be trusted.
* Please give me ONE example of a change that proves your point.
BofC 4:2-"and he has a gift to translate the book, and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him NO OTHER gift."
D&C 5:4- "And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I commanded that you should pretend to no other gift, UNTIL my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift UNTIL it is finished"
PolishA-PT 2: BofC 4:2-"and he has a gift to translate the book, and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him NO OTHER gift."
D&C 5:4- "And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I commanded that you should pretend to no other gift, UNTIL my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift UNTIL it is finished"
-"NO other gift" vs none "UNTIL it is FINISHED". Change of meaning
PolishA-PT 1:Yes, it is definitely the same section. The changes are WHY it looks different. Check both word by word, carefully. This is the substantial changes. Check the dates & who it is addressed to- Martin H, & both on 3/1829. I can send you a website link that has the changes marked, which you can verify w/your copy of the original Book of Commandments (BofC) & the D&C. I personally checked by own copies now & they are the same, but have changes of substance (far from just commas)
PolishA-Even if I do rely on literature against the LDS Church, the issue is whether it's right or wrong. I have found good & bad in it & sure have in Mormon materials. I have read both sides, & BOTH sides have problems & good points.
The following shows 1 example, as you asked, of a major change to LDS scripture. I only included part of the passages, and only CAPPED a few changes. If U have the original Book of Commandments, as I have, U can compare them personally
"Even if I do rely on literature against the LDS Church, the issue is whether it's right or wrong. I have found good & bad in it"
*I am sure there is some good in Joseph Stalin's or Adolf Hitler's writings, but the bad is bad enough for me to make an intelligent decision not to go into their ideas. Plus - it's an extremely huge waste of time.
PolishA-I can say the same thing about LDS literature & defenses, so I can skip Mormon materials. I don't, but I could. I have personally checked enough to know they have good & bad, & many times the Mormon defenses are not accurate against them. Mormons regularly misrepresent others' beliefs, & use the 'strawman fallacy'- they misrepresent anothers' beliefs, & then refute the Mormon misrepresentation, & they misunderstand Christian views, etc. Should I skip all LDS sources & don't speak w/LDS?
"Should I skip all LDS sources & don't speak w/LDS?"
*I am sure LDS authors make mistakes from time to time, but the Anti-Mormons purposefully distort facts. Just because someone is imperfect (and every person is) - it doesn't mean I won't pay attention to what he/she has to say, but if he/she lies to me once, twice, ten times, etc. - I think it is wise to finally say - I don't trust you and I won't waste any more time listening to your lies.
PolishA-U shared:"I am sure LDS authors make mistakes from time to time, but the Anti-Mormons purposefully distort facts." I see both sides & LDS authors/others, distort non-LDS beliefs, conceal, evade, tell others to say they know the LDS Church is true when they don't believe it, answer my question w/an answer to the question they wanted me to ask & distort what some critics say. This isn't a perfect record. I have also seen that what LDS reject from critics sometimes is both right & wrong
"I see both sides & LDS authors/others, distort non-LDS beliefs, conceal, evade,..."
*I guess my experience has been totally different. I especially have hard time believing that anyone in the LDS Church "tell others to say they know the LDS Church is true when they don't believe it". On the other hand I remember hear. our apostles stressing that when you bear your test. you should only talk about things that you really know or believe, so I guess some people must have had a problem with that.
PolishA- ME:"I see both sides & LDS authors/others, distort non-LDS beliefs, conceal, evade"
You:"I guess my experience has been totally different."
You're LDS. It probably will be different. This has happened to me MULTIPLE times.When do Mormons *volunteer* BASICS like God the Father is a man, 3 Gods in Godhead, we can become literal Gods & there's others besides? When I & others ask straightforward, LDS are evasive, etc, or won't answer. It shows we can't ask LDS to find out about LDS Church
Harry - "When I & others ask straightforward, LDS are evasive, etc, or won't answer"
*I am glad you explained how LDS lie in your opinion. I don't think not telling the whole truth is a lie (unless you swear that you will tell the whole truth - of course). As a matter of fact - Jesus and his disciples warned against giving meat before milk, etc. See - we have seen too many people getting upset with our doctrines and so FOR THEIR SAKES we are more careful. Bible says: Milk first, then meat.
PolishA-PT 5:PA:"See - we have seen too many people getting upset with our doctrines and so FOR THEIR SAKES we are more careful. Bible says: Milk first, then meat."
The public doesn't have enough evidence of the true doctrines to make a well informed decision about the LDS Church-this is dishonest & disingenuous. Non-LDS should go to LDS to find out? They get LDS Church tactics of non-answers.
Please don't blame others who go to non-LDS to know what the LDS conceal to paint a varnished version
PolishA-PT 4:PA:"See - we have seen too many people getting upset with our doctrines and so FOR THEIR SAKES we are more careful. Bible says: Milk first, then meat."
The public doesn't have enough evidence of the true doctrines to make a well informed decision about the LDS Church-this is dishonest & disingenuous. Non-LDS should go to LDS to find out? They get LDS Church tactics of non-answers.
Please don't blame others who go to non-LDS to know what the LDS conceal to paint a varnished version
PolishA-PT 3:PA:"Jesus and his disciples warned against giving meat before milk, etc."
Where did Jesus say this? His disciples?
LDS Church mislabels BASIC but controversial doctrines as "meat". That's false & misuses the Bible to justify concealing LDS doctrines because if others knew, they would disagree. Poor reason to disrespect, evade & avoid. Rationalizing a compromised ethic, then say 'Don't go to non-LDS, come to us to know', while giving a carefully crafted evasion is untrustworthy
PolishA-PT 2:PA:"I am glad you explained how LDS lie in your opinion."
I said evade, but...When I quote Ensign 3/2008 p 68 that they are "THREE Gods" & ask if the LDS Church teaches they're 3 Gods & LDS say in response 'LDS believe in only 1 God', they lie. Ensign is plain.
When Apostle Packer says to bear a testimony even if U don't believe (Ensign 1/83), that is by definition lying to someone else by saying U believe X when you don't.
PolishA-PT 1:ME:"When I & others ask straightforward, LDS are evasive, etc, or won't answer"
PA:"I am glad you explained how LDS lie in your opinion."
ME:I didn't say lie, I said evade & avoids. There's a difference
It's NOT my opinion. When I quote Ensign 3/2008 & ask if LDS Church teaches Father/Son/HG are 3 Gods & they say LDS believe they're 3 beings, that's evasive & disrespects me
When they reply "LDS believe in only 1 God", they lie
Then LDS say to ask LDS for *answers* on the LDS Church?
Harry - "When I & others ask straightforward, LDS are evasive, etc, or won't answer"
*BTW - I personally don't think that not answering your question is the best thing. My philosophy is that unless the Spirit stops me - I answer people's questions about our unique doctrines, but I won't start telling them until they understand AND APPLY the basics (faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism and receiving Holy Ghost).
PolishA-PT 2:"but I won't start telling them until they understand AND APPLY the basics (faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism and receiving Holy Ghost)."
Which means U don't tell outsiders about the real distinctives between LDS Church & Christian churches around. So, to find out about the real LDS Church, one must be a submissive member of the LDS Church before you deem them ready to be given more on even basic doctrines of God, man, etc? LDS aren't upfront & so non-LDS must go to non-LDS
PolishA-PT 1:PA:"My philosophy is that unless the Spirit stops me - I answer people's questions about our unique doctrines"
LDS Church gives a false front of being closer to Christian churches than they are, a Public Image vs Private Reality of doctrines & practices that aren't defined or revealed to outsiders. Without clear definitions, LDS Church says the same things, but doesn't mean the same. A Baptist could say the same things but mean vastly different things. This is a false public image
PolishA-"I especially have hard time believing that anyone in the LDS Church "tell others to say they know the LDS Church is true when they don't believe it".
Apostle Boyd Packer said this to mission presidents. I read it in official 1/1982 Ensign: The Candle of the Lord.
Officially told LDS to lie, deceive & say U believe when U don't & LDS should bear a testimony they don't have to help the LDS to get one, potentially self conditioning their emotions. Also YouTube jhuston7's:Lying for the Lord
*Thank you so much for recommending this video. I just gave it 5 stars! Everything brother Millet said is exactly what Paul taught and exactly what Jesus practiced (when He often either didn't answer the Pharisees' questions or responded with another question, etc.).
(BTW - I worked in the place where the talk was given for 6 years and I miss it! It's probably the most powerful place on this planet!)
PolishA-PA:"Everything brother Millet said [in jhuston7's YouTube vid "Lying for the Lord"] is exactly what Paul taught and exactly what Jesus practiced"
Millet is wrong. Jesus didn't withhold how many Gods there were, etc. Jesus & Paul is misapplied by LDS. If all religions did as the LDS Church did, we wouldn't really know what any religion taught by going to members. Millet uses his tactics when he dialogues with evangelicals & some think he's a Christian because of what Millet did NOT say
*If you think that we lie because we don't want to hurt you spiritually, then you should also say that Jesus, Paul and the Bible lie as well. Perhaps you should also call you mom and tell her: "I can't believe you nursed me when I was a newborn!"
PolishA-PA:"If you think that we lie because we don't want to hurt you spiritually, then .. . Perhaps you should also call you mom and tell her: "I can't believe you nursed me when I was a newborn!"
If I was among LDS who never heard of anything else, I would not conceal the doctrines of Deity, man & salvation. Those are NOT meat. To compare an infant with someone who needs to have a true picture of a religion before dedicating his life to it is not accurate & my mother wouldn't do that to me
PolishA-PT 4: With very few manuscripts of the Book of Mormon, we have changes, some ARE of substance, NOT spelling, etc. Smith said: "...we heard a voice from out of the bright light above us, saying, 'These plates have been revealed by the power of God, and they have been translated by the power of God. The TRANSLATION of them which YOU have SEEN is CORRECT, and I command you to bear record of what you now see and hear.' " (HC 1: 54-55), but this edition was changed anyway, several times
"These plates have been revealed by the power of God, and they have been translated by the power of God. The TRANSLATION of them which YOU have SEEN is CORRECT"
He was totally right. Please - check by yourself. You can get a free copy of the newest edition of the Book of Mormon from any missionary or order it on mormon org. You can then buy the reprint of the 1st edition on line or in any LDS bookstore. Both editions are CORRECT.
PolishA-Why do U assume I haven't checked for myself? I have the 1830, pre-1981 & current Book of Mormon. I have seen PAGES of photocopies, lists, etc., & I have NEVER found them wrong. If YOU made a FULL study of the changes, from different BOM manuscripts & ALL editions of the BOM, you will see the same as I have. The first translation suppose to be "correct" & phrases, words, etc., are NOT the same. U & LDS want to point to the variants of Bible's manuscript, but all BOMs can't be "correct"
"U & LDS want to point to the variants of Bible's manuscript, but all BOMs can't be "correct"
* If so - you should be consistent and choose only ONE of the 4 Gospels in the NT since they also have minor differences (for example - different authors recorded different statements of Jesus in apparently the same conversations, etc.)
PolishA_U miss huge differences. NONE of the Bible translators claimed to translate "by the gift & power of God" thru Urim & Thumim, a stone, etc. JS did. Bible translators didn't claim a divine voice told them that the translation was "correct" & then change it. Bible vs LDS JST has major, unsubstantiated changes-compare ANY translation & Greek manuscript of John 1 w/JST, or Hebrew & any translation of Gen 50 w/JST. I AM consistent & do not need to choose only 1 NT Gospel
Harry, nobody said there will be no mistakes made in Church publications. How did Urim & Thumim work? How exactly did Joseph Smith translate the Book of Mormon? If you know the answers to these questions, you know more than all scholars put together, because Joseph didn't say much about it.
Here are the words of the prophet Mormon about his writings. Mormon 8:17 (or on page 538 in the 1830 edition - if you prefer): "and if there be faults, they be the faults of a man."
PolishA-PT 3:Mormon 8:17 doesn't answer what I showed. YOU said the changes are commas, etc, & I have shown an example that demonstrates this is VERY incorrect. Using Mormon 8 does not directly address this. This is also a fact of the original version of the BOM was said to be "correct" by a divine voice. Subsequent changes do not get covered in what would be considered Moroni's ORIGINAL writing/compiling of the BOM. I also used the BofC/D&C, NOT the BOM.
"the original version of the BOM was said to be "correct" by a divine voice."
Here is an example I hope will help. I joined the Church after reading and praying about the 1st translation of the BofM in Polish. Now I am participating in the 2nd translation, because the first has many imperfections. The fact is that the 1st translation is still the Book of Mormon written by Mormon, Moroni and others, but the translation could be better. It is still divinely inspired scripture though.
PolishA-"..the first [Polish BOM] has many imperfections. The fact is that the 1st translation is still the Book of Mormon ..but the translation could be better. It is still divinely inspired scripture though."
The voice said original BOM translation was "CORRECT". The "imperfections" negate them being "correct". UR translating the Polish BOM w/o the divine help Smith claimed. An imperfect BOM is still the BOM, but it is NOT "correct". Divinely correct doesn't have many translation imperfections
Harry - "The voice said original BOM translation was "CORRECT". The "imperfections" negate them being "correct"."
*Look, 16 years ago I probably said this to many people: "God live. Jesus the Savior. God love people. We are God children." Now I would say this: "God lives. Jesus is the Savior. God loves all people. We are God's children." Both statements ARE correct.
PolishA-"*Look, 16 years ago I probably said this..Now I would say this.. . Both statements ARE correct." Not analogous. Saying the same things differently in the same language is NOT the same things as saying the TRANSLATION of a book is DIVINELY "correct". When U see all of the changes in the BOMormon, you see some of them going beyond your analogy. The changes in the D&C from what was in the Bk of Commandments & PofGP, Articles of Faith go WAY beyond that & are much stronger than BOM changes
Harry - "Not analogous. Saying the same things differently in the same language is NOT the same things as saying the TRANSLATION of a book is DIVINELY "correct""
*Ok, so my example probably didn't apply to all of the "changes" (as you call them). Here is another analogy: Sometime ago I would say: "I know Jesus is our Savior.", now I would say: "I know Jesus is our Savior because I've felt the power of his Atonement." Both statements are correct.
PolishA-PT 2:PA:"another analogy: Sometime ago I would say: "I know Jesus is our Savior.", now I would say: "I know Jesus is our Savior because I've felt the power of his Atonement." Both statements are correct."
UR analogy is not correct. They are both in English, so it doesn't fit the BOM issues. For a TRANSLATION of a manuscript to be *divinely* CORRECT, it has to be faithful to the original text. Two statements can be theologically right, but not be a correct TRANSLATION of the text
- 1)your jesus is brother to lucifer. Christian's Jesus is his creator. 2)your jesus is exalted man. Christian's Jesus is God Himself 3)your jesus born of virgin birth but impregnated by immortal man. Christian's Jesus - God incarnate begotten of the Holy Spirit 4)your god attained his "godhood" Christian's God has always been God. 5)your jesus' blood doesn't cover all sins. Christian's Jesus' blood covers ALL sin. - Your beliefs are in direct contradiction with the Word of GoD
badgarcia 8 months ago
Comment removed
Sobanski87 1 year ago
Here are a couple good videos to watch:
The Bible Vs. The Book Of Mormon (Complete) /watch?v=dTtq62XQ4jw
DNA vs. the Book of Mormon /watch?v=6GF_SxbPLb0
Hope you like them.
rickgigliotti 1 year ago
wan't Joseph Smith like a fiction writer before like the Scientology founder?
pewpewaliens 1 year ago
I like how you are able to relate the Bible stories. Great ideas. Thanks!
omiolo 1 year ago
I think the rhetoric AGAINST Mormon Christians is indicative of the instability that abounds in the ANTImormon community.
omiolo 1 year ago
MORMONS WORWHIP LUCIFER..............
eitoobmiz 1 year ago
@eitoobmiz lol. I don't agree with this comment, but it is so silly it's just funny
jebradec1 1 year ago
@jebradec1 WHATS FUNNY ABOUT MORMON LIES....................MORMONS ARE GOING TO HELL BECAUSE THEY WORSHIP LUCIFER THRU MASONIC SYMBOLS AND RITUALS...............WAKE UP............MORMON LUCIFERIANISM IS STAREING YOU IN YOUR FACEEEEEEEEEEEE..............FREEMASONRY IS SATANIC.........
eitoobmiz 1 year ago
God lives, a living God speaks.
omiolo 1 year ago
Hello Greg, I like your video very much. Its nearly two years old, but I saw it again today and its in my favourites now. We all should share our personal testimonies in this way you did. Than you again, my best wishes for you and your family.
mormontube 1 year ago
Nice to see your family!
Fact:
Mormons believe that families CAN BE together forever. This requires temple rituals.
While Christians put their trust and faith in Jesus Christ that it will be magnificent after this life.
What did Jesus said about family?
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. - Matt 10:37
exmo81 2 years ago
"Nice to see your family!"
exmo81, I just read a lot of your comments and after about an hour it is nice read one that is actually kind and not mean spirited (BTW - what do those churches that claim to be Christian do to you guys?!).
PolishAbinadi 2 years ago
do you guys believe that the bible and the book of mormon is in harmony with each other, and if so... there would never be contradictions or fighting against each other?
alma 12:20 your soul shall never die
ezekiel 18:4 and 20 your soul that sinneth shall surely die
alma12:20-24 pergatory is practice
eccles 9:5 the dead no nothing 9:10 are not doing anything in the grave.
just some to show you, someone is lying to you and your family, and its not the creator YAH!!
Yahushua1 2 years ago
Yahushua1: "do you guys believe that the bible and the book of mormon is in harmony with each other..."
*Yes, we believe both books were written by true prophets of God and their teachings are in perfect harmony with each other. The only problem is when we try to interpret some verses and then find out that other verses contradict OUR INTERPRETATION. I always stress this when people show me verses in the Bible that they say contradict each other.
PolishAbinadi 2 years ago
It's so obvious that modern day watered down christianity is built on a foundation of sand.
TrueSaintsLDS 2 years ago
Thank you sir. What a beautiful family you have!
Favorited!
DefendingMormonism 2 years ago
really great video PolishAbinadi.
Today is a really great day! Sarahm44 and all her anti-mormon videos were removed by Youtube due to violation of regulations.
woohoo!
LDSTrueChurch 2 years ago 2
Good news LDSTrueChurch. I haven't seen her videos I guess I won't have the "opportunity". Oh well, I guess I will get over it. 8o)
PolishAbinadi 2 years ago
Comment removed
Orayn 3 years ago
Orayn - "Don't mind me, just passing through, giving one-star ratings to all the Mormon videos. Leave me an angry comment if you want."
*Why would I give you an angry comment? Last time someone made me laugh so much was Connan O'brian I think. LOL
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 1:"Jer 17:9 says HEART is deceitful above ALL things & DESPARATELY wicked."
I am not sure how this relates to what I used Jer 17:9 for.
I used Jer 17:9 to show that the heart/seat of emotions are not trustworthy & shouldn't be the standard to test- it's "DECEITFUL above ALL things". That includes the mind. The subjective/heart/emotions is less reliable than the mind. ALL 3 tests are objective, and the use of the mind is commended (Acts 17:11), and upheld as good and divinely approved.
harry4health 3 years ago
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MormonsLoveFamilies 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 1-PA:"But the fact remains that the current Bible does contain errors. ..Bible is inspired..Truth shall make us free"
The over 90% accuracy doesn't prove many plain/precious parts & covenants were taken out of Bible & I can show MUCH worse changes in Bk of Command's vs D&C than the Bible. NO proof of the volume & severity of the LDS charges in BOM or JST. The 3/2008 Ensign (Packer) also claimed word atonement was taken out w/no evidence. Such a cavalier belittling by the LDS Church
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 2-PA:"the Bible is inspired".
The Bible is 66 books. Joseph Smith, in his JST, says "The Songs of Solomon are not inspired writings." (LDS KJV Song 1:1 JST note). What's left is 65 books OF the Bible, but these are supposedly horribly hacked & corrupted by the Gentile G&A Church (1 Nephi 13) & seeing the severity of the changes JSmith made to the Bible, so when LDS say the Bible is inspired, etc, the real doctrine underlies the nice words: The Bible isn't inspired, only most of the 65
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 1:PA:"And I wish other Christians..."
Both cannot have the biblical concept of Jesus (2 Cor 11), so both groups cannot be a part of Christianity. Both groups teach a very different gospel & way to be 'saved', so both groups cannot be a part of Christianity (Gal 1). The NT does not have any Christian outside of the true body/Church- 1 Cor 12:13, etc.
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 2:PA:"And I wish other Christians stop worshiping the writings of ancient prophets mixed with alterations made by scribes, monks and false priests"
I wish LDS would stop worshiping their leaders words as the Interpreters of the Bible, effectively placing LDS Church over the Bible. Christians do NOT WORSHIP the Bible. Please stop distorting. Worshiping God is obeying HIS word, BELIEVING his word & not denigrating it as LDS Church have done for 170ish years.
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 3:PA:"And I wish other Christians stop worshiping the writings of ancient prophets mixed with alterations made by scribes, monks and false priests"
Until U can fully grasp & explain 1 Nephi 13's chronology & how the OT & NT JST is shown by actual evidence, all U have is assertion. The BOM & JST are shown false & LDS attacking those who preserved the Bible is unfounded.
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 4: PA:"and start worshiping the God of Israel who inspired prophets to write the Bible. What is wrong in believing the writings of prophets without the uninspired alterations?"
The God of Israel said there's no God before/after him & said "I know *not* ANY" other Gods (Isa 43-47). Deifying man & humanizing God is not worshiping the true God of Israel (Deut 13, Psalm 90:2)
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 5: PA:"What is wrong in believing the writings of prophets without the uninspired alterations?"
U haven't answered the real points of what I posted on 1 Nephi 13. U place a poor idea of God's ability to preserve what he inspired. It was so corrupt for 1,800 years & only restored for 170ish years? LDS have NO evidence for LDS Moses, Gen 50 or John 1. U have NO evidence of the severity of what BOM claims, so it IS wrong to mistake assertion as restoration
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 1:PA:"It's not the feeling..It's the REVELATION. It's the difference between the Pharisees who XX vs...who finds out who Jesus really is BY HIS OWN EXPERIENCE" D&C 9 is feeling. I find it false & offensive U keep giving false analogies to Pharisees. Testing by scripture isn't Pharisaical-this isn't them. Philip the Evangelist opened scripture to a non-Christian & Paul kept meeting w/Jews to PROVE Jesus as the Christ by scripture. I follow his example, not subjectivism, as the standard
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 2:Matthew uses the Jewish Bible many times to prove Jesus as Messiah. Paul repeatedly went to Jews to PROVE Jesus as Messiah by scripture & reasoning:Acts 9:22; 13:14-49; 17:1-4,10-13; 18:4-5, 19, 28; 19:8; 26:21-23, 27; 28:23-24, 31. Maybe Romans 3:9. He reasoned & used scriptures to prove his beliefs were true. He did this from the start to near the end of Acts before King Agrippa. It even went to the very last chapter. He promoted using logic & scripture. He was an EX-Pharisee, BTW
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-The difference between the NT church & LDS Church is that the LDS Church has a prophet/president at the head. NT church didn't. NT church has the apostles as the top leaders. LDS Church as a prophet above the 12 LDS apostles. The NT church had more freedom than LDS Church. The NT church has evangelists as those who evangelized the non-Christians as the Greek word & Acts 8 shows. LDS Church turned it into an OLD patriarch who gives blessings to the converted
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-"Acts 17:11 says we test all ..by the already written scriptures. D&C 21:5 ... [etc]".
PA:"You should test a person who claims to be sent by God, but once God confirmed his claim - what's the point of testing him every time he utters a word?"
ME: The initial tests from the LDS Church is subjective & it doesn't follow Acts 17:11 & doesn't have a need for Deut 13 & 18. The Bereans still tested an apostles' words by scripture, not the other way around, or by a feeling.
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PA:"It's actually very simple. It's like the difference between the US Constitution and the Congressional acts or bills. They are all laws, but you must agree that they carry different weight."
The LDS I refer to said ONLY the SW are AUTHORITATIVE & DISMISSED the rest, which is FALSE. It's NOT like the Constitution & Bill of Rights
When it's official, the LDS Church is accountable for it. Do LDS hold the LDS Church leaders to LDS scriptures? Bill of Rights is equal to the Constitution.
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 1:PA:"The ancient apostles spent a lot of time and energy making sure the Church is united in doctrine and practice."
A FEW apostles addressed specific issues, not as many as LDS Church does. The NT church also had more freedom in the churches than the LDS Church. Rom 14 & Col 2:14-17 says there's freedom concerning sabbaths, what Christians eat & drink, some esteem 1 day above others, some don't & there's freedom there, but LDS Church mandates a Sabbath, forbids coffee/tea, etc
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 2:PA:"As Paul said: 'One Lord, one faith, one baptism'(Eph. 4:5)"
If they have false doctrine on essential basics on Jesus(2 Cor 11), they don't have NT's 1 Lord. One faith isn't all details, but faith in the NT Jesus(1:15,19; 2:8-9). One baptism is spiritual(1 Cor 12:13). NT gospel Paul preached is death of NT Christ for sin, burial, & resurrection (1 Cor 15:1-4), LDS Church adds works-water baptism, temple works (3 Nephi 27, The Life and Teachings of Jesus & His Apostles, p 418/419
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 1"The 3 tests you keep referring to are valid, but it is important to have the correct understanding of the meaning of the scripture before you start judging someone by it." ME: I do & U haven't shown I don't. UR Pharisee example is invalid. U have to show me I am wrong on those 3 as tests, etc./, which U haven't done, before U can parallel me with the Pharisees.
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 2: On 2 Peter 1:20-21- I shared the context, wording & Greek on the 1 verse U used, plus the other U didn't. Do U see that UR use of this passage is wrong? What does the text say? As U said to me, "it is important to have the correct understanding of the meaning of the scripture before you start judging someone by it" It refers to HOW the scriptures were GIVEN/ORIGINATED.
harry4health 3 years ago
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PolishA-PT 3:"2 Peter 1:20"-Context of v 21 shows that UR view is wrong. No scripture is GIVEN of any..but holy men of God were MOVED by the Holy Spirit" to WRITE. It teaches scripture is not the WRITER'S opinion, but came from God. It's NOT speaking of what the READER thinks they MEAN, but HOW they ORIGINATED- verse 21 teaches:"but men MOVED BY the Holy Spirit SPOKE from GOD" (NASB)
It doesn't evade Acts 17:11, Deut 13/18. It doesn't enthrone feelings over testing by already written scripture
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 3:"2 Peter 1:20". The context would show that UR view is wrong. No scripture is GIVEN of any .. but holy men of God were MOVED by the Holy Spirit" to WRITE. It teaches scripture is not the WRITER'S opinion, but came from God. It is NOT speaking of what the READER thinks they MEAN, but HOW they ORIGINATED- "but men MOVED BY the Holy Spirit SPOKE from GOD" (NASB)
It doesn't evade Acts 17:11, Deut 13/18. It doesn't enthrone feelings over testing by already written scripture
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PA:"This is how it was with me: First I was impressed with the missionaries' conduct so I started listening to them. Everything they said about Joseph Smith was in harmony with the Bible. They and Joseph passed the test. I was then ready to ask God, so I did."
I can quote Ensign, etc., to show the answer they think is divine is the subjective. You judged the LDS Church by the Bible? Why did U pray, and what do U consider was the answer? D&C 9/Moroni 10 use the subjective.
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 1:"Jer 17:9 says HEART is deceitful above ALL things & DESPARATELY wicked."
I am not sure how this relates to what I used Jer 17:9 for.
I used Jer 17:9 to show that the heart/seat of emotions are not trustworthy & shouldn't be the standard to test- it's "DECEITFUL above ALL things". That includes the mind. The subjective/heart/emotions is less reliable than the mind. ALL 3 tests are objective, and the use of the mind is commended (Acts 17:11), and upheld as good and divinely approved.
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 2:PA:"Hm... Let me flip a coin... Or - perhaps I should assume that God knows the answer? Should I ask him?"
ME: U seek to squeeze out of the simple & plain 1 Nephi 13 chronology & then conclude based on going around the text of the BOM. There is NO coin flipping needed. God works well through our minds & Bible gives tests that LDS don't seem to want to really obey. Jer 17:9 says HEART is deceitful above ALL things & DISPARATELY wicked. Any prayer doesn't negate the 3 GOD-given tests
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 2:PA:"Hm... Let me flip a coin... Or - perhaps I should assume that God knows the answer? Should I ask him?"
ME: U seek to squeeze out of the simple & plain 1 Nephi 13 chronology & then conclude based on going around the text of the BOM. There is NO coin flipping needed. God works well through our minds & Bible gives tests that LDS don't seem to want to really obey. Jer 17:9 says HEART is deceitful above ALL things & DISPARATELY wicked. Any prayer doesn't negate the 3 GOD-given tests
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 1: PA:"Many plain and precious parts could have consisted of 0.01% of the Bible before they were taken out."
U keep refusing to see the specific chronology & the details of what 1 Nephi 13 is teaching about the entire Bible, NOT just the NT portion. U said I didn't give evidence, but I did & I did it again. The particular points I brought out from the text were not even addressed, never mind addressed fully.
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT2:"LDS Moses..Summary:"Enoch preaches the gospel-The plan of salvation revealed to ADAM", .. Moses,..chapter 6"
PA:"Do you have any evidence that anything in ch. 6 or the words you quoted are not true or that were not part of Moses' original record? If not- are you just going to make a decision by flipping a coin?"
ME: My point is that 1 Nephi 13 isn't limiting it to the NT. Please read them again. DSS don't have Moses & BOM says Bible was pure when the JEWS of DD 300BC-70 AD had them
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT3-ME:"I think it is clear that BOM 1 Nephi 13 includes OT & NT."
PA:"without evidence this is just your wishful thinking."
I GAVE evidence-did U read it? OT contains covenants made to ISRAEL & prophecies by the PROPHETS (BOM 1 Ne 13:23)
Gentile G&AC had BOTH OT & NT. History is plain. OT had the gospel according to LDS Moses in PofGP, JS said was part of original Genesis. Moses 6 Summary:"Enoch preaches the gospel-The plan of salvation revealed to ADAM", read all of Moses, esp chapt 6
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT4-Even if I believed BOM 1 Nephi 13 is limited to New Testament, we have the Papyrus Bodmer II, ca. 200 AD, w/a good portion of John-NO evidence for JST, esp JST John 1. Rylands Greek Papyrus 457, ca. 125-130 AD, includes John 18:38-still no evidence of the JST. I think it is clear that BOM 1 Nephi 13 includes OT & NT, as I have shared. Even IF it isn't, these are SO close to the 1st century, that earliest NT manuscripts give zero for the SEVERITY of the BOM charges & no help for JST
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT5-U quoted 1 Nephi 13:24, but not vs 23 that shows it's more than just the NT, & U didn't include vs 25, where it says the Jews had it "in PURITY", THEN the Gentile Great & Abominable Church got it & THEN took many parts & covenants out. The verse right before & after the 1 verse U used helps to clarify & explain this issue. The book included the gospel, but covenants made to THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL & prophecies of prophets.
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT6-The Dead Sea Scrolls says they were PURE in the hands of the Jews before the Gentile church got the Bible. The DSS doesn't have the JST changes- LDS Moses, Gen 50, John 1, JS-Matt (NT Matt 24), etc. DDS came from the period of the Bible's PURITY before the corruption alleged in BOM's 1 Nephi 13. JST & BOM fails since there is not JST in any of the manuscripts, including the NT Rylands & Bodmer Papyrus & OT DSS. PURE means it wasn't corrupted at that time
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA- Please note some are repeats- use the newest post if you see a duplicate.
I wonder if we should continue this by YouTube email. All of the hoops In have to go through to post these is very time consuming & I am getting to bed waaay too late for me. Take care.
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PA:"this is just another characteristics that we have in common with the Church of [JC] of Ancient Saints"
The issue was it doesn't make any difference that there are different non-LDS churches.
LDS Church has a stronger hand of control over it's one monolithic organization & Mormon splinter groups are OUTSIDE. NT church had doctrinal/moral problems, but a PART of the church (1 Cor, Rev 1-3). The LDS Church keeps a tight ship. Evangelicalism is closer to the NT church than LDS Church.
harry4health 3 years ago
Harry(01-15):"NT church had doctrinal/moral problems, but a PART of the church (1 Cor, Rev 1-3). The LDS Church keeps a tight ship. Evangelicalism is closer to the NT church than LDS Church."
*That's not the feeling I get when I read the NT (perhaps we use different translations - just teasing). The ancient apostles spent a lot of time and energy making sure the Church is united in doctrine and practice. As Paul said: "One Lord, one faith, one baptism"(Eph. 4:5)
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 1-ME:"Harry - "the LDS Church doesn't just take the Standard Works (Bible/BOM/D&C/PofGP) as inspired, authoritative, or binding."
PA:"Yes, it's true, but there is a difference."
ME: I brought that up as a reply to you. Mormons have told me that only the Standard Works are authoritative, sounding like they want to conveniently dismiss anything they can that is quoted, even if it is published by the LDS Church, which is false. UR D&C just further proves my point over theirs
harry4health 3 years ago
Harry(01-15):"Mormons have told me that only the Standard Works are authoritative, sounding like they want to conveniently dismiss anything they can that is quoted, even if it is published by the LDS Church, which is false."
*It's actually very simple. It's like the difference between the US Constitution and the Congressional acts or bills. They are all laws, but you must agree that they carry different weight.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 2-PA:"The Lord declared: "For [the living prophet's] word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith."(D&C 21:5) You might say: "How convenient" and I say - Yes, very convenient."
ME:Acts 17:11 says we test all a claimed living prophet says by the already written scriptures. D&C 21:5 negates that. If claimed scripture says we take his words as equal to God's words, we really don't obey Acts 17:11 to see "WHETHER" what he says is true or not
harry4health 3 years ago
Harry(01-15):"Acts 17:11 says we test all a claimed living prophet says by the already written scriptures. D&C 21:5 negates that. If claimed scripture says we take his words as equal to God's words, we really don't obey Acts 17:11 to see "WHETHER" what he says is true or not"
*Yes and no. You should test a person who claims to be sent by God, but once God confirmed his claim - what's the point of testing him every time he utters a word? Things would move to slowly this way.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 3-ME:"The Lord didn't set up his Church to complicate our lives but to improve them. His house is a house of order."
ME: The LDS Church is overly controlled & a picture of the NT church with all of it's doctrinal & behavioral, moral problems demonstrates that it wasn't run as a corporation & well controlled as the LDS Church is and does.
harry4health 3 years ago
Harry(01-15):"a picture of the NT church...demonstrates that it wasn't run as...the LDS Church is..."
*I don't see any difference. Jesus run his Church through inspiration given to the apostles. The apostles were the final authorities in the NT Church. Large portion of their epistles were corrections to the false doctr. and practices that were introd. to the branches of the Church by apostate Christians. The apostles did try to control the affairs of the Church, because they were put in charge.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 1:PA:"I would agree if I didn't know that you are only talking about 3 short fragments of the Bible."
They were given AS TESTS. UR topics are NOT. If LDS Church doesn't pass there, then they don't have a false foundation. UR topics mentioned are NOT given AS TESTS. Acts 17:11, Deut 13/18 ARE. Bible gives TESTS. Those should be first & foremost. If U have feelings as the test, then U violate the 3 biblical tests. Acts 17:11 sets the tools to use in ANY issue. Deut has 2 specific tests
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 2:PA:"I think the whole Book shows us the standard we should use to measure JS's claims."
NONE of the Bible teaches feelings as the determinative test on what is truth & error. When the bible gives us actual, specific tests, those who claim to be Christians should not minimize them by calling them fragments. ALL the topics U gave are subject to Acts 17:11- U don't find the truth/error by seeking a feeling, or dismissing or compromising Acts 17:11, etc
harry4health 3 years ago
Harry(01-15):"U don't find the truth/error by seeking a feeling"
*It's not the feeling that we invite people to seek. It's the REVELATION. It's the difference between the Pharisees who look for Moses' writings to prove that Jesus is a sinner vs. an uneducated, ILLITERATE, blind beggar who finds out who Jesus really is BY HIS OWN EXPERIENCE.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 3:PA:"Jesus' church is built on rock of revelation, is led by living apostles and prophets, has priesthood, high standards, etc. Who else passes the test?"
Those are not given as tests. Acts 17:11, Deut 13/ 18 are. If a church fails the first 3, then those are tests that show it's in serious error.
I can speak to all of those issues, if U want to continue by email
LDS Church's true test is feelings, so they are wrong on the biblical tests
The issue is objective vs subjective standard
harry4health 3 years ago
What hymn is in the background? It is beautiful.
RodneyHampton 3 years ago
This hymn is called "May the Good Lord Bless and Keep You" and it's sang by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir (Love Is Spoken Here album from 2005 - probably the awesomest album by the MTC, these are all children's hymns).
Sister Lewis from Aspen Grove, Utah - thank you for this wonderful gift for our children!
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-"There were times when I really wanted to do something my way, but the answer was "no". Joel's prophesy is being fulfilled: "I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy..."(Joel 2:28). DON'T MISS IT! You can be part of it!"
Claiming to get a divine no is not Joel 2. It's set to a certain time & things- dreams, visions. Also, Joel has a context (vss 19-17), vs 28: "And AFTERWARD"- after the things in vss 21-17.
harry4health 3 years ago
Harry - "Claiming to get a divine no is not Joel 2"
*I wasn't trying to prove anything. I was mostly trying to help you understand that there is nothing wrong or fishy with the claim that people receive revelations, prophesy, etc. After all - God did prophesy the days will come. And I am saying - they came and it's wonderful. That's all.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-PA on Joel 2-:"I was mostly trying to help you understand that there is nothing wrong or fishy with the claim that people receive revelations, prophesy, etc. After all -God did prophesy the days will come. And I am saying-they came and it's wonderful. That's all."
-Christians don't deny it. Joel doesn't say revelations,new scripture. It says prophecy, dreams, visions. I can believe Joel 2 & be non-LDS. MILLIONS of Christians do. Prophecy can also telling forth/exhorting/comfort-1 Cor 14
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-YouTube scrambles posts- please read through the most recent 2-3 pages of posts. I see some of my posts in a row, then I see several of your posts until mine are mingled with yours. YouTube really should revamp their website like a Yahoo group, or Google Group. They are MUCH more reliable & organized! Take care- Happy New Year to you and your family over in Poland!
harry4health 3 years ago
"YouTube really should revamp their website like a Yahoo group, or Google Group."
I totally agree!
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
Love your children!!Bless you all.
rtiffanytaylor 3 years ago
Great job you guys!! Thanks for sharing.
rtiffanytaylor 3 years ago
The Bible was good enough for the first 1,938 years of the church, why would God need a flimflam artist like Joseph Smith to bring "corrections" to it? If the Bible can't be trusted, neither can God and we need not fear Him or care what He says.
apologeticsman 3 years ago
"The Bible was good enough" - Was it? I don't think those thousands who were burned at the stake, hundreds of thousands whose heads were cut off and millions who live right now in "Christian" civilization but are afraid to go out after dark would agree that the Bible was enough.
Where is the "unity of the faith" - Paul wrote about in Eph. 4:13? We have literally thousands of churches who use the Bible but each has different beliefs.
We need all God has given - including modern revelations.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
Well, the people who did those things obviously were not Christian. The Bible lays down very specific guidelines for how a person is to live, speak, think and how they are to treat other people. Nothing was lost, so nothing needed to be restored. If God's word was lost, then it is not God's word, and there is no God. Think about what the word holy means, and then tell me God's word is corrupted...
apologeticsman 3 years ago
Your first argument makes sense. But where did you get this doctrines? You can't find them in the Bible:
1. "Nothing was lost, so nothing needed to be restored."
2. "If God's word was lost, then it is not God's word, and there is no God."
Can you explain? Thanks.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
It is very simple. God is holy, i.e. is incapable of mistakes. God is sovereign, i.e. all powerful and all knowing, therefore His word is as holy and powerful as He is. The Bible calls God's word "alive and powerful, and sharper than any 2 edged sword", therefore it is not just words on pages, but is a living force that NO HUMAN is able or allowed to pervert. Yes, some have made translations which were perverted, but if the originals were perverted, then God is not God. God's word is His bond.
apologeticsman 3 years ago
I see your point. However, we must remember - God has given men agency. He can give us His word, but we can either (1)accept it, we can (2)reject it, or we can (3)choose the parts that we like and the rest ignore. He doesn't stop to be God if we do any of the last two.
BTW - You should also know that we (LDS) emphasize that the Bible is the word of God. We are aware of some changes that have been made, but we do believe that - like you said - the Bible is God's bond.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
free agency never appears in the Bible. The term free will does, but free will only allows us to choose our eternal destiny. Man can not exercise his free will to topple that which God has done, or to undo what God said could not be undone. We can translate His word incorrectly, but we can not make it impossible for His message of salvation to be lost to the world. The original Greek & Hebrew have shown themselves time & time again to be trustworthy, & they denounce many of the LDS doctrines.
apologeticsman 3 years ago
There are a few problems in your last comment:
1. "We can translate His word incorrectly, but we can not make it impossible for His message of salvation to be lost to the world." - sounds great but no such doctrine is found in the Bible. If so - where?
2. "The original Greek & Hebrew..." - what original? NO ORIGINAL WRITING OF THE BIBLE ARE AVAILABLE IN THE WORLD TODAY. There are more than 5000 ancient manuscripts of the NT - no two of them are identical.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
First, you must understand that scribes in the new testament times were still a lot like they were in the Old testament times, i.e. they would destroy manuscripts when they were worn out and used. So, the fact that we have any remains of the originals is a miracle! However, I still revert to my original statement about God's holiness and inability to fail at His task of spreading His truth. What proof do Mormons have of the gold plates? We have much more than you.
apologeticsman 3 years ago
*"the fact that we have any remains of the originals is a miracle!" - I agree 100%
*"inability to fail at His task of spreading His truth" - we do have free will. If I throw away my copy of the Bible it will only prove my stupidity - not God's powerlessness. Plus - this is an extra-biblical doctrine
*"What proof do Mormons have of the gold plates?" - God's testimony spoken to every person who seeks truth
*"We have much more than you." - Let me remind you - we have the Bible AND BofM 8O)
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
You miss the point. The oldest complete New Testament is only 1 generation removed from the time of the apostles. By that time, the church was well established, and would not have accepted any new doctrines or changes to the existing ones. It would be like someone now, 178 years later, trying to add a book to the Book Of Mormon, Mormons would know instantly if it were incorrect, because the actual Book of Mormon still exists in its original form. We have archaeology to back us, you have nothing
apologeticsman 3 years ago
*You can't compare 100AD to 2000AD. Now anyone can have access to pretty much any book. Back then - only a few priests, monks, etc.
*The fact remains - NO original manuscript is available. 5000+ ancient manuscripts - all differ from each other.
*"We have archaeology to back us, you have nothing" - Let me remind you again - we DO believe the Bible. We also have archeology. We are on the same side as far as the Bible is concerned. We also have the Book of Mormon.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-When apologeticsman asked what proof is there of the gold plates, he was asking for objective evidence, not subjective belief. U didn't share objective evidence. UR answer "to EVERY person who seeks truth" seems to say all who don't convert, wasn't seeking truth. Many truly seek truth & do not become Mormon, even so many who check it out.
harry4health 3 years ago
* You are right - I didn't give him any "objective evidence". I don't have any but frankly - I don't think he needs any from me. The evidence he can receive from God is enough - and much more powerful than any golden plates, etc.
* Ok - so I will show you the gold plates after you show me Moses' tablets. 8O)
* No - I don't think that if a person is not a Mormon it means that he/she isn't a truth seeker. But I do believe that every person who seeks it will eventually find it in the LDS Church.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-"No - I don't think that if a person is not a Mormon it means that he/she isn't a truth seeker. But I do believe that EVERY person who seeks it WILL eventually find it in the LDS Church."
So, if a person doesn't find it in the LDS/Mormon Church, then that person wasn't really seeking it? You did say "WILL".
harry4health 3 years ago
John explained it very well (he didn't try to be politically correct though):
"We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error" (1 John 4:6)
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-REPOST: Apolog said:"we have much more than you" in manuscripts of the Bible than the Book of Mormon. You said Mormons have both books. That's true, but the manuscript evidence for the Bible doesn't help Mormonism directly, since many don't have the BOM, but do believe in the Bible. For the LDS Church to be true, it's Mormon-produced scripture must be tested/examined (2 Thess 5:21) by written scriptures we already have (Acts 17:11), & what God, Jesus, gospel LDS have (Deut 18, 2 Cor 11)
harry4health 3 years ago
(1 Thess 5:21) - If you ever talk to the missionaries you will hear them saying something like this: "But don't believe us, find out for yourself." I know the Bible and the Book of Mormon are true because I did put them to test. Not the Pharisee-like test, but the James-like. I read, pondered, compared and finally I asked God for wisdom.
(Acts 17:11) - I do search my scriptures daily. All faithful LDS do.
(Deut 18) - Joseph Smith passed the test. His prophecies were fulfilled.
...
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA- U said: "I know the Bible and the Book of Mormon are true because I did put them to test. Not the Pharisee-like test"
What is the "Pharisee-like test"? Please explain and define clearly.
harry4health 3 years ago
"What is the "Pharisee-like test"? Please explain and define clearly."
I foresaw your question (I am kidding - of course) and posted a few days ago this video:
watch?v=VzKdiH06fKg
Basically - the Pharisees looked for fault in what Jesus said or taught. They compared his teachings and deeds with their understand. of the scriptures. The result was always the same - another prove He didn't come from God and another reason to condemn Him. This is what a lot of "Christians" do today with J.Smith.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA- BIBLE teaches to know truth and expose error, & test spiritual claims by written scripture (Acts 17:11, Deut 13,18). You oversimplify the NT's Pharisees to point to those who disagree with the LDS Church & share why. Pharisees STRAYED FROM scripture to ADD their own commandments to what was considered mandatory. What church adds a mandatory abstaining from drinking coffee to get to the temple as a requirement for celestial salvation? Exposing error & warning, sharing isn't Pharisaical
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-On your 1 Thess 5:21 comments: Mormon missionaries say to find out for yourself, but they emphasis the subjective & emotional. They & the LDS Church uses BOM Moroni 10:3-5, D&C 9 as how to find out the truth. Besides the fact that it's the BOM telling U how to find out that the BOM is (allegedly) true, it deflects from true examination. You also separated 1 Thess 5:21 from Acts 17:11. Thess says examine (Greek of KJV "test") & Acts informs us on how to test.
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA- U:"(Acts 17:11) - I do search my scriptures daily. All faithful LDS do." I connected it with 1 Thess 5:21, to examine all things. The point of Acts 17:11 is not JUST to study. It says (NKJV):"[the Bereans] searched the Scriptures daily to find out WHETHER these things WERE so." They didn't force Paul's words into pseudo-agreeing, & didn't use Paul's words to interpret scripture, they searched to see WHETHER his words were true OR FALSE. The Christian standard is scripture, not leaders
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-"(Deut 18)-Joseph Smith passed the test. His prophecies were fulfilled." I have read both sides. One of the most famous 'prophecies' said to be from Smith is the Rocky Mountain prophecy. It has been in the official Ensign 11/2008 (Ballard), etc. However, there's NO solid evidence, if any, he ever made that prophecy. It was added to the manuscript in much smaller writing (CWofM). Defenses I have read come up empty. Besides, in Deut 13 a crucial test is the concept of God a prophet teaches
harry4health 3 years ago
(2 Cor 11) - This is a great chapter - one of many evidences in the New Testament that the apostasy was coming. The false prophets and teachers did come and did alter the truth. This is why God sent the prophet J. Smith to restore the same gospel that Paul and other apostles.
John saw an "angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth" (Revelation 14:6) Why would God send an anger with the gospel if it was already present on earth?
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-In your comments on 2 Cor 11, you ignored why I used it. It says there's ANOTHER Jesus & gospel, and the advocates are in Satan's service. The LDS Church likes to say LDS are Christians & non-LDS are too, 'we're Christians, you're Christians'. However, this is anti-biblical. 2 Cor 11 speaks of a false Jesus & gospel. LDS Church teaches that Jesus is one of many Gods, spirit offspring of Heavenly Father & Heavenly Mother, as are all of us & Satan, and BECAME A God, as did the Father
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-You quote 1 verse out of it's context. I don't see the context of Rev 14 fitting the early 1800's. 2) "Then I saw ANOTHER angel flying in THE MIDST OF heaven.. SAYING with a loud voice, 'Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him [etc]'" (vs 7). The DEFINITION of the message is given, and it isn't Mormonism. I checked what the LDS Church claims by scripture (Acts 17:11) & the LDS view doesn't fit the content & context.
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA- In your mere quotation, you do not explain the specifics of my posts, and you do not explain what you think the verse means, and how it applies to my specific points & passages *I* use. Please deal with each of the Bible passages I use. Skipping mine & just quoting another does not answer the texts I used.
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA- The term, politically correct is used by anyone who wants to use it for their viewpoint, but doesn't prove anything. 1 John 4:6 is not 'politically incorrect' with Bible-based Christians. My view isn't the 'PC' view today. Subjectivism is, using emoptions & subjectivism as the standard of truth is, which the LDS/Mormon Church heavily relies on (Ensign, D&C 9, etc).
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-Apologeticsman: "we have much more than you" in manuscripts of the Bible than the Book of Mormon. You said Mormons have both books. That's true, however, the manuscript evidence for the Bible doesn't help Mormonism directly, since many don't have the BOM, but do believe in the Bible. For the LDS Church to be true, it's Mormon-produced scripture must be tested/examined (2 Thess 5:21) by written scriptures we already have (Acts 17:11), & what God, Jesus, gospel LDS have (Deut 18, 2 Cor 11)
harry4health 3 years ago
"For the LDS Church to be true, it's Mormon-produced scripture must be tested/examined... by written scriptures we already have"
* Yes, and the modern scriptures perfectly pass the test. The problem is that people usually compare THEIR INTERPRETATION of the Bible with what they read in the Book of Mormon. This is exactly what the Pharisees did and so they rejected the Messiah (I will send you a video with an example of this in the New Testament).
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-U claim the modern LDS scriptures pass the test, but I have not seen this yet. To say the problem is people's interpretation of the bible is compared w/BOM is faulty thinking. Unless UR mind is blank on a passage, EVERYONE has interpretation. The test is what's correct? That takes more than following leaders. To compare them w/Pharisees is wrong & distorts reality. Acts 17:11 says to use the written scriptures as the standard to test leaders, not the other way around.
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-What apologeticsman means is that Bible translations must not make the essential salvation message to be lost, which is true, and the numerous Bible translations have kept the New Testament/biblical message and way of salvation intact. I can easily find it in ANY Bible translation published.
harry4health 3 years ago
"Bible translations must not make the essential salvation message to be lost"
* I agree with you. I think the essential message is: FOLLOW LIVING PROPHETS.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA- The essential message of the Bible is follow prophets? The essential message of salvation is follow prophets? Christians would say the Bible's essential message is Jesus, prophecied & fulfilled. You have turned it into an organizational leadership message.
Actual Christians should, I would say would, know the Bible is Person-centered from cover to cover, and it isn't earthly prophets.
It is Jesus. The essential message of salvation is Jesus, and what he did, according to the Bible.
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-How can U agree with me? I also said the manuscript evidence shows the message of salvation has NOT been lost from the Bible manuscripts. I also specified that it is the essential message of SALVATION. The essential salvation message of the Bible is NOT to follow claimed prophets. The Bible's gospel of salvation is not as the LDS/Mormon Church teaches. The Bible never lost the salvation message. Apologeticsman is right.
harry4health 3 years ago
"How can U agree with me?" - Well... sorry - I do agree that the essential message of the Bible was preserved.
* The central figure of the Gospel is Jesus - no question about that. The problem is that if you, me and 1000 other Christians met to discuss what the Gospel means we would hear 1002 dif. opinions.
* The Bible totally solves the problem. It contains countless of examp. that show the import. of following true prophets and reject. those who have no God's authority to interpret scriptur.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-1) What I meant is that the essentials of the gospel were preserved, not just some of them. Do you believe the full gospel is in the Bible as we now have it through the manuscripts? 2) Do you believe the 66 books of the bible are over 99% accurate to the original manuscripts, preserved by God?
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-U said the essential message was following prophets. This was a reply to my comments concerning one of the essential/necessary doctrines of Christianity is the gospel, & this is fully preserved in the New Testament of the Bible. Following prophets-is this the essential/NECESSARY message of the gospel? You now say the "central figure" of the Bible is Jesus. I did not ask, or comment on the central *figure*, but necessary message of the gospel, & now that the essential *message* is Jesus.
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA- Actually, the NEW Covenant (Testament) scriptures have apostles as the top leaders, not a prophet, as in the LDS Church (1 Cor 12:28, etc). The Bible also has objective tests for those who preach and claim they are 'anointed'- test by written scriptures (Acts 17:11), which is far from Pharisaical, what concept of God do they promote (Deut 13), and a 100% accurate record of prophecy (Deut 18).
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA- U shared: "following true prophets and reject. those who have no God's authority to interpret scriptur.". So, true prophets have the authority to interpret scripture for the church & its members? Then Acts 17:11 isn't true. Written scriptures are the standard. The NT does not show a prophet as the worldwide head of the entire church, but are as Agabus in Acts. NO church prophet divinely interpreting for us.
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 5: There were even more radical and substantial changes to the D&C & Pearl of Great Price. The D&C/Pearl have more radical changes than the Bible- and with so FEW manuscripts. Even the Joseph Smith Translation shows changes in it, sometimes revising the same material several times. With so few manuscripts for LDS-specific scriptures, the Bible comes out much better with its 1,000s of years than the BOM/D&C/PoGP/JST that have only been published for about 170 years.
harry4health 3 years ago
"There were even more radical and substantial changes to the D&C & Pearl of Great Price..."
* You can come to this conclusion after reading the Anti-Mormon garbage. This is why I always encourage people to check things out and think for themselves. I guarantee that after you learn about the corrections that were made in those books (most of them were commas, periods, etc.) - you will no longer trust those who distort the truth.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 2: Please tell me how much you have studied ALL of the changes in the Book of Commandments/D&C & Pearl of Great Price. How do you know you've seen ALL of the changes? U "guarantee" when I see most are commas & periods, "you will no longer trust those who distort the truth." I have, however, seem much more than how you minimize most, & miss much, and it is not those who give textual evidence that I can check who "distort the truth". UR asertion isn't even close to the truth
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 1:To reject literature that you disagree with as "anti-Mormon garbage", call them Pharisees, & assume U know what I have done, read, or seen is pretty bad. Dealing with evidence, not assertion & accusation will be much more productive. You gave NO evidence. *I* have SEEN photocopies, and evidence. I HAVE the reprints of the 1833 Book of Commandments/1835 Doctrine & Covenants. If you think most changes were commas & periods, then U need to "check things out and think for yourself"
harry4health 3 years ago
"*I* have SEEN photocopies, and evidence."
* The reason why I assumed you rely on the anti-Mormon garbage is because I have heard similar accusations before and I know they are unfounded. The reason why I call the anti-Mormon publications "garbage" is because I am familiar with them and they are FAR from true scholarship. Their main goal is to discourage you and me from learning the truth about Mormonism. They cannot be trusted.
* Please give me ONE example of a change that proves your point.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-One example of major change:
BofC 4:2-"and he has a gift to translate the book, and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him NO OTHER gift."
D&C 5:4- "And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I commanded that you should pretend to no other gift, UNTIL my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift UNTIL it is finished"
-"no other gift" vs changed none "until"
harry4health 3 years ago
Harry - I think you are quoting two different revelations. What makes you think this is the same revelation?
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 2: BofC 4:2-"and he has a gift to translate the book, and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him NO OTHER gift."
D&C 5:4- "And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I commanded that you should pretend to no other gift, UNTIL my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift UNTIL it is finished"
-"NO other gift" vs none "UNTIL it is FINISHED". Change of meaning
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 1:Yes, it is definitely the same section. The changes are WHY it looks different. Check both word by word, carefully. This is the substantial changes. Check the dates & who it is addressed to- Martin H, & both on 3/1829. I can send you a website link that has the changes marked, which you can verify w/your copy of the original Book of Commandments (BofC) & the D&C. I personally checked by own copies now & they are the same, but have changes of substance (far from just commas)
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-Even if I do rely on literature against the LDS Church, the issue is whether it's right or wrong. I have found good & bad in it & sure have in Mormon materials. I have read both sides, & BOTH sides have problems & good points.
The following shows 1 example, as you asked, of a major change to LDS scripture. I only included part of the passages, and only CAPPED a few changes. If U have the original Book of Commandments, as I have, U can compare them personally
harry4health 3 years ago
"Even if I do rely on literature against the LDS Church, the issue is whether it's right or wrong. I have found good & bad in it"
*I am sure there is some good in Joseph Stalin's or Adolf Hitler's writings, but the bad is bad enough for me to make an intelligent decision not to go into their ideas. Plus - it's an extremely huge waste of time.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-I can say the same thing about LDS literature & defenses, so I can skip Mormon materials. I don't, but I could. I have personally checked enough to know they have good & bad, & many times the Mormon defenses are not accurate against them. Mormons regularly misrepresent others' beliefs, & use the 'strawman fallacy'- they misrepresent anothers' beliefs, & then refute the Mormon misrepresentation, & they misunderstand Christian views, etc. Should I skip all LDS sources & don't speak w/LDS?
harry4health 3 years ago
"Should I skip all LDS sources & don't speak w/LDS?"
*I am sure LDS authors make mistakes from time to time, but the Anti-Mormons purposefully distort facts. Just because someone is imperfect (and every person is) - it doesn't mean I won't pay attention to what he/she has to say, but if he/she lies to me once, twice, ten times, etc. - I think it is wise to finally say - I don't trust you and I won't waste any more time listening to your lies.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-U shared:"I am sure LDS authors make mistakes from time to time, but the Anti-Mormons purposefully distort facts." I see both sides & LDS authors/others, distort non-LDS beliefs, conceal, evade, tell others to say they know the LDS Church is true when they don't believe it, answer my question w/an answer to the question they wanted me to ask & distort what some critics say. This isn't a perfect record. I have also seen that what LDS reject from critics sometimes is both right & wrong
harry4health 3 years ago
"I see both sides & LDS authors/others, distort non-LDS beliefs, conceal, evade,..."
*I guess my experience has been totally different. I especially have hard time believing that anyone in the LDS Church "tell others to say they know the LDS Church is true when they don't believe it". On the other hand I remember hear. our apostles stressing that when you bear your test. you should only talk about things that you really know or believe, so I guess some people must have had a problem with that.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA- ME:"I see both sides & LDS authors/others, distort non-LDS beliefs, conceal, evade"
You:"I guess my experience has been totally different."
You're LDS. It probably will be different. This has happened to me MULTIPLE times.When do Mormons *volunteer* BASICS like God the Father is a man, 3 Gods in Godhead, we can become literal Gods & there's others besides? When I & others ask straightforward, LDS are evasive, etc, or won't answer. It shows we can't ask LDS to find out about LDS Church
harry4health 3 years ago
Harry - "When I & others ask straightforward, LDS are evasive, etc, or won't answer"
*I am glad you explained how LDS lie in your opinion. I don't think not telling the whole truth is a lie (unless you swear that you will tell the whole truth - of course). As a matter of fact - Jesus and his disciples warned against giving meat before milk, etc. See - we have seen too many people getting upset with our doctrines and so FOR THEIR SAKES we are more careful. Bible says: Milk first, then meat.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 5:PA:"See - we have seen too many people getting upset with our doctrines and so FOR THEIR SAKES we are more careful. Bible says: Milk first, then meat."
The public doesn't have enough evidence of the true doctrines to make a well informed decision about the LDS Church-this is dishonest & disingenuous. Non-LDS should go to LDS to find out? They get LDS Church tactics of non-answers.
Please don't blame others who go to non-LDS to know what the LDS conceal to paint a varnished version
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 4:PA:"See - we have seen too many people getting upset with our doctrines and so FOR THEIR SAKES we are more careful. Bible says: Milk first, then meat."
The public doesn't have enough evidence of the true doctrines to make a well informed decision about the LDS Church-this is dishonest & disingenuous. Non-LDS should go to LDS to find out? They get LDS Church tactics of non-answers.
Please don't blame others who go to non-LDS to know what the LDS conceal to paint a varnished version
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 3:PA:"Jesus and his disciples warned against giving meat before milk, etc."
Where did Jesus say this? His disciples?
LDS Church mislabels BASIC but controversial doctrines as "meat". That's false & misuses the Bible to justify concealing LDS doctrines because if others knew, they would disagree. Poor reason to disrespect, evade & avoid. Rationalizing a compromised ethic, then say 'Don't go to non-LDS, come to us to know', while giving a carefully crafted evasion is untrustworthy
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 2:PA:"I am glad you explained how LDS lie in your opinion."
I said evade, but...When I quote Ensign 3/2008 p 68 that they are "THREE Gods" & ask if the LDS Church teaches they're 3 Gods & LDS say in response 'LDS believe in only 1 God', they lie. Ensign is plain.
When Apostle Packer says to bear a testimony even if U don't believe (Ensign 1/83), that is by definition lying to someone else by saying U believe X when you don't.
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 1:ME:"When I & others ask straightforward, LDS are evasive, etc, or won't answer"
PA:"I am glad you explained how LDS lie in your opinion."
ME:I didn't say lie, I said evade & avoids. There's a difference
It's NOT my opinion. When I quote Ensign 3/2008 & ask if LDS Church teaches Father/Son/HG are 3 Gods & they say LDS believe they're 3 beings, that's evasive & disrespects me
When they reply "LDS believe in only 1 God", they lie
Then LDS say to ask LDS for *answers* on the LDS Church?
harry4health 3 years ago
Harry - "When I & others ask straightforward, LDS are evasive, etc, or won't answer"
*BTW - I personally don't think that not answering your question is the best thing. My philosophy is that unless the Spirit stops me - I answer people's questions about our unique doctrines, but I won't start telling them until they understand AND APPLY the basics (faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism and receiving Holy Ghost).
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 2:"but I won't start telling them until they understand AND APPLY the basics (faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism and receiving Holy Ghost)."
Which means U don't tell outsiders about the real distinctives between LDS Church & Christian churches around. So, to find out about the real LDS Church, one must be a submissive member of the LDS Church before you deem them ready to be given more on even basic doctrines of God, man, etc? LDS aren't upfront & so non-LDS must go to non-LDS
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 1:PA:"My philosophy is that unless the Spirit stops me - I answer people's questions about our unique doctrines"
LDS Church gives a false front of being closer to Christian churches than they are, a Public Image vs Private Reality of doctrines & practices that aren't defined or revealed to outsiders. Without clear definitions, LDS Church says the same things, but doesn't mean the same. A Baptist could say the same things but mean vastly different things. This is a false public image
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-"I especially have hard time believing that anyone in the LDS Church "tell others to say they know the LDS Church is true when they don't believe it".
Apostle Boyd Packer said this to mission presidents. I read it in official 1/1982 Ensign: The Candle of the Lord.
Officially told LDS to lie, deceive & say U believe when U don't & LDS should bear a testimony they don't have to help the LDS to get one, potentially self conditioning their emotions. Also YouTube jhuston7's:Lying for the Lord
harry4health 3 years ago
Harry - "Lying for the Lord"
*Thank you so much for recommending this video. I just gave it 5 stars! Everything brother Millet said is exactly what Paul taught and exactly what Jesus practiced (when He often either didn't answer the Pharisees' questions or responded with another question, etc.).
(BTW - I worked in the place where the talk was given for 6 years and I miss it! It's probably the most powerful place on this planet!)
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-PA:"Everything brother Millet said [in jhuston7's YouTube vid "Lying for the Lord"] is exactly what Paul taught and exactly what Jesus practiced"
Millet is wrong. Jesus didn't withhold how many Gods there were, etc. Jesus & Paul is misapplied by LDS. If all religions did as the LDS Church did, we wouldn't really know what any religion taught by going to members. Millet uses his tactics when he dialogues with evangelicals & some think he's a Christian because of what Millet did NOT say
harry4health 3 years ago
Harry - "Lying for the Lord" (2)
*If you think that we lie because we don't want to hurt you spiritually, then you should also say that Jesus, Paul and the Bible lie as well. Perhaps you should also call you mom and tell her: "I can't believe you nursed me when I was a newborn!"
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-PA:"If you think that we lie because we don't want to hurt you spiritually, then .. . Perhaps you should also call you mom and tell her: "I can't believe you nursed me when I was a newborn!"
If I was among LDS who never heard of anything else, I would not conceal the doctrines of Deity, man & salvation. Those are NOT meat. To compare an infant with someone who needs to have a true picture of a religion before dedicating his life to it is not accurate & my mother wouldn't do that to me
harry4health 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 4: With very few manuscripts of the Book of Mormon, we have changes, some ARE of substance, NOT spelling, etc. Smith said: "...we heard a voice from out of the bright light above us, saying, 'These plates have been revealed by the power of God, and they have been translated by the power of God. The TRANSLATION of them which YOU have SEEN is CORRECT, and I command you to bear record of what you now see and hear.' " (HC 1: 54-55), but this edition was changed anyway, several times
harry4health 3 years ago
"These plates have been revealed by the power of God, and they have been translated by the power of God. The TRANSLATION of them which YOU have SEEN is CORRECT"
He was totally right. Please - check by yourself. You can get a free copy of the newest edition of the Book of Mormon from any missionary or order it on mormon org. You can then buy the reprint of the 1st edition on line or in any LDS bookstore. Both editions are CORRECT.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-Why do U assume I haven't checked for myself? I have the 1830, pre-1981 & current Book of Mormon. I have seen PAGES of photocopies, lists, etc., & I have NEVER found them wrong. If YOU made a FULL study of the changes, from different BOM manuscripts & ALL editions of the BOM, you will see the same as I have. The first translation suppose to be "correct" & phrases, words, etc., are NOT the same. U & LDS want to point to the variants of Bible's manuscript, but all BOMs can't be "correct"
harry4health 3 years ago
"U & LDS want to point to the variants of Bible's manuscript, but all BOMs can't be "correct"
* If so - you should be consistent and choose only ONE of the 4 Gospels in the NT since they also have minor differences (for example - different authors recorded different statements of Jesus in apparently the same conversations, etc.)
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA_U miss huge differences. NONE of the Bible translators claimed to translate "by the gift & power of God" thru Urim & Thumim, a stone, etc. JS did. Bible translators didn't claim a divine voice told them that the translation was "correct" & then change it. Bible vs LDS JST has major, unsubstantiated changes-compare ANY translation & Greek manuscript of John 1 w/JST, or Hebrew & any translation of Gen 50 w/JST. I AM consistent & do not need to choose only 1 NT Gospel
harry4health 3 years ago
Harry, nobody said there will be no mistakes made in Church publications. How did Urim & Thumim work? How exactly did Joseph Smith translate the Book of Mormon? If you know the answers to these questions, you know more than all scholars put together, because Joseph didn't say much about it.
Here are the words of the prophet Mormon about his writings. Mormon 8:17 (or on page 538 in the 1830 edition - if you prefer): "and if there be faults, they be the faults of a man."
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 3:Mormon 8:17 doesn't answer what I showed. YOU said the changes are commas, etc, & I have shown an example that demonstrates this is VERY incorrect. Using Mormon 8 does not directly address this. This is also a fact of the original version of the BOM was said to be "correct" by a divine voice. Subsequent changes do not get covered in what would be considered Moroni's ORIGINAL writing/compiling of the BOM. I also used the BofC/D&C, NOT the BOM.
harry4health 3 years ago
"the original version of the BOM was said to be "correct" by a divine voice."
Here is an example I hope will help. I joined the Church after reading and praying about the 1st translation of the BofM in Polish. Now I am participating in the 2nd translation, because the first has many imperfections. The fact is that the 1st translation is still the Book of Mormon written by Mormon, Moroni and others, but the translation could be better. It is still divinely inspired scripture though.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-"..the first [Polish BOM] has many imperfections. The fact is that the 1st translation is still the Book of Mormon ..but the translation could be better. It is still divinely inspired scripture though."
The voice said original BOM translation was "CORRECT". The "imperfections" negate them being "correct". UR translating the Polish BOM w/o the divine help Smith claimed. An imperfect BOM is still the BOM, but it is NOT "correct". Divinely correct doesn't have many translation imperfections
harry4health 3 years ago
Harry - "The voice said original BOM translation was "CORRECT". The "imperfections" negate them being "correct"."
*Look, 16 years ago I probably said this to many people: "God live. Jesus the Savior. God love people. We are God children." Now I would say this: "God lives. Jesus is the Savior. God loves all people. We are God's children." Both statements ARE correct.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-"*Look, 16 years ago I probably said this..Now I would say this.. . Both statements ARE correct." Not analogous. Saying the same things differently in the same language is NOT the same things as saying the TRANSLATION of a book is DIVINELY "correct". When U see all of the changes in the BOMormon, you see some of them going beyond your analogy. The changes in the D&C from what was in the Bk of Commandments & PofGP, Articles of Faith go WAY beyond that & are much stronger than BOM changes
harry4health 3 years ago
Harry - "Not analogous. Saying the same things differently in the same language is NOT the same things as saying the TRANSLATION of a book is DIVINELY "correct""
*Ok, so my example probably didn't apply to all of the "changes" (as you call them). Here is another analogy: Sometime ago I would say: "I know Jesus is our Savior.", now I would say: "I know Jesus is our Savior because I've felt the power of his Atonement." Both statements are correct.
PolishAbinadi 3 years ago
PolishA-PT 2:PA:"another analogy: Sometime ago I would say: "I know Jesus is our Savior.", now I would say: "I know Jesus is our Savior because I've felt the power of his Atonement." Both statements are correct."
UR analogy is not correct. They are both in English, so it doesn't fit the BOM issues. For a TRANSLATION of a manuscript to be *divinely* CORRECT, it has to be faithful to the original text. Two statements can be theologically right, but not be a correct TRANSLATION of the text
harry4health 3 years ago