Leonard Bernstein Discussing Beethoven's 6th and 7th Symphony

[accessandamplify]

I could listen to this man for hours... more.

[smole133]

One of the rare YouTube videos that has no dislikes

[TheChairoplane]

what i love is that if Schell were not even there Mastro would be having exactly the same conversation, to the cigarette or to the dog or to the score

[Tony32]

They look like mafia bosses ROFL

[Numboss]

As soon as Bernstein's fingers touch the keys timeless music appears, even if it's just a few seconds.

[teccomin]

wow one of my favourite conductor and one of my favourite actor in one video

[sonata1992]

The Moonlight sonata performance has my school's piano teacher! (and my chamber music coach) He's one of the best musicians I've ever known.

[dinulipati]

@ bonnmystic: I am doing my utmost to disagree with Bernstein, but I lack the authority to do that.

This video doen't show a discussion, but I find it allright, as it's a delight to listen to Bernstein's interesting explanations.

Greetings.-

[BrucknerMotet]

7:05 Max, what makes it interesting is that Bernie suddenly has a longer cigarette.

[blucinemafilms]

What an intellectually uncomfortable stare. Maxi mind if I fire up a J. Heres mine. La La La Dee. BernIe is that Old Spice your wearing. Don't be silly. What a triumphant overture. I didn't think you noticed. Refresh your cocktail Bernie. Ha ha ha you fool. I'm not that easy. ..

[tyu3456]

I like how both are just casually smoking.

[dericho06]

@tyu3456 I noticed that myself, and thought that was kind of strange.

[bonnmystic]

I just really disagree with Bernstein. i just think he's flat out wrong about his criticisms. Bernstein really appears lost here.

[bayreuth79]

Beethoven struggled to write a great fugue? Huh?! Et vitam venturi from Missa Solemnis? Grosse Fuge? The finale from Hammerklavier?

[sithardeth]

@bayreuth79 thats right he struggled. and thats why he succeeded. thats how he wrote things. struggling

[honron21]

@bayreuth79 thouse fugues are very bad ones as a fugue, it is its caracter and the form what makes them interesting, but of course if you don't have experience writing fugues you cannot understand this, it's like when someone who doesn't play piano at all and who doesn't know anything about classical music, watches an amateur playing Mozart's turkish march and he thinks he is in front of a very good pianist.

[bersa888]

@bayreuth79 : As great and truly original (modern, innovative, etc.) as those are, Bernstein is talking about a "true" fugue, something along the lines of academic counterpoint. As far as fugue-like movements, besides the ones you mentioned, I love the finale of the C major string quartet Op. 59, for instance...

[polymath7]

Nietzsche makes a very similar point about how artists who are in suicidal despair are not apt to be found making art.

I wonder if this is coincidental?

[josepharchbold]

Hahahaha I love how Bernstein gets at Beethoven but he doesn't discourage me I love Beethoven to death!

[spyshousakusen]

お願いします、字幕を！

[christopher19894]

I don't know what's more enjoyable to listen to: The way Bernstein conducts Beethoven; or the way Bernstein talks about Beethoven.

[dericho06]

@christopher19894 Personally, I like how he talks about it more.  He makes the music just so fascinating.

[Stevenup7004]

Where does this video come from? Is there more of this discussion?

[dericho06]

@Stevenup7004 These are extras are from a DVD collection that was released of Bernstein conducting all of Beethoven's Symphonies with the Vienna Philharmonic.

[SOUNDEAD]

what a good damn video!

[OrchestrationOnline]

The flaw in logic here is that yes, indeed, Beethoven used very simple elements in many (not ALL, okay?) of his greatest works to monumental effect. Does that mean he was incapable of complexity in his fundamental ideas, as Bernstein implies? Not at all! Great melodies? How about the Violin Concerto? Complex harmony and counterpoint? How about Die Grosse Fuge, the string quartets and the last piano sonatas? And as for orchestration, Beethoven took it farther than anyone up to his time.

[al1936ful]

@OrchestrationOnline Bernstein is not denying that Beethoven took it further. but in his book "The joy of Music", he goes into more detail about this. What he calls "bad orchestration" is the fact that Beethoven, because of his deafness, apparently couldn't tell when one section of the orchestra was drowning out others - trumpets playing too loud, woodwinds going unheard, etc. And if a conductor plays it as written, without balancing it out, it will sound bad.

[OrchestrationOnline]

@al1936ful I'm a professional orchestrator and coach, and I know all about this. It's much more complex than that. For instance, the trumpets and horns of the time had a much smaller sound - period-instrument groups have much less work to do in balancing Beethoven scores. The problem is not that Bernstein has the wrong idea - it's just that he so enormously exaggerates in making his point, that he takes it to the point of absurdity. Beethoven a terrible orchestrator? That's ridiculous.

[al1936ful]

@OrchestrationOnline I'm not sure that Bernstein meant that literally, because in his introduction to Beethoven's "Symphony No. 6", he says that he often played the fifth movement on the piano as a teenager and found it rather dull, and it was only after he heard the orchestrated version that he appreciated it. and in his program "What Is Orchestration?" (part of he Youn People's Concerts), he praises Beethoven's distribution of voices in one of the String Quartet.

[OrchestrationOnline]

@al1936ful The point is that Bernstein is having a poetic moment - he is trying to emphasize the power of Beethoven's use of form. In doing so, he trivializes the other aspects of Beethoven's craft. You are smart enough to know this, and you have left several replies clarifying his position. I suspect, though, that few young musicians and casual viewers of this video will bother reading either your explanations or my objections. So the damage has been done.

[beastlybobo]

@OrchestrationOnline Sorry to butt into this, especially so late, but I read the conversation between you and al1936ful, I would just like to say that, even though you both have valid points, we're kind of missing the main point of this. Bernstein, who is my biggest musical inspiration, may seem like he's criticizing Beethoven, but at the end of it all, he just wants to show his extreme love and admiration for Beethoven and wants to show that he was a brilliant musical master and always will be.

[OrchestrationOnline]

@beastlybobo No, I totally get the point - 100%. Bernstein is lionizing, idealizing, championing Beethoven. But he's doing it in a way that requires response. It's the wrong way to make the point that form was the paramount element. I invite you to visit my channel and view my video commentary on this - it's an extremely detailed analysis of what is being said, and what the actual facts are about Beethoven's craft.

[OrchestrationOnline]

I love Lenny, but his penchant for exaggeration knows no bounds. Beethoven was a far greater orchestrator, melodist, contrapuntalist, and master of harmony than Bernstein says. Far far greater. I could list dozens, if not hundreds of examples to refute his assertions. And he didn't "wreck himself" - his health throughout his life was fairly robust for a man of his circumstance and social position. And when it gave way, it was at the end when his work load had slowed considerably.

[nuggie9511]

Wow. What a gem! Thanks for this wonderful insight on Beethoven's symphonies by one of the greatest men to have ever lived in Leonard Bernstein. More of these please! 

[lilimarlene61]

you made me a magnificent surprise! It's very pleasant for me to see this video which fascinated me in my childhood. Thank you.