Grumman F3F-2 "Flying Barrel"

[Gasbaggful]

To get a speed of 480 mph was in a dive called the 9 G Pull. A force of about 9 G's was experienced during the dive. Some pilots didn't make it out because of blacking out during the dive. Would have interesting to see how well these planes would have done in combat. But by 1938 types like the Me109 and A5M were common so I don't think they would have held up for too long.

[carmium]

Those cartridge starters were how the engine of the rebuilt airplane in Flight of the Phoenix was started. First time I'd ever seen them in use.

[ChorltonBrook]

480 mph for a bi-plane! wow.

[YTM021807]

@ChorltonBrook That 480mph was probably in a DIVE!?!

[JaleelJohanson62]

@YTM021807 Without a doubt. Like the video said though, impressive the wings stayed on! That's a lot of drag to pull forward at 480mph!

[crankbv1]

The cartridge shown here is used in what is known as a Kaufmann starter. It was used to dramatic effect by James Steward in the film Flight Of The Phoenix. The device was also used on some larger agricultural tractors too. Firing the Kaufmann into one cylinder would swing the engine enough to bring the other cylinders in on normal fuel...Hopefully.

[Elhombresombra]

@crankbv1 Just for the sake of precision... "Coffman starter", not Kaufmann ;o) Cheers!

[crankbv1]

@Elhombresombra l stand corrected,sir. You're right of course,Coffman is the correct name. lt must be early senility creeping in. Cheers.

[Elhombresombra]

@crankbv1 you don't need to be so tough with yourself! :-P Cheers! :o)

[Greenhornet270]

Beautiful Old ship...Great Post!!

[dorkf1sh]

Among other things, Grumman fighters had a very clear DNA.

[300ZXrider1]

The music reminds me of old Tom and Jerry cartoons.

[Cavelson]

Oh! I flew to the past... California and Miami were nice places... No junkies or vatos. If you wanted a big city, NY or Chicago were a place to be. Nice and real girls (no palstic boobs or lips)... Fly was a daredevil stick and rudder ol' prop job...

[2c1496]

BomberGuy...thanks for this great clip and the music was perfect

[CaesarInVa]

Now THAT'S flying! Keep your F-18's and F-22's, if you can't open the cockpit canopy and fly with the blast and heat of the engine in your face, then it ain't flyin'!

[SSGDragonSoldier]

@yyk99: It's known as a Coffman Starter.

[killingamps]

The Japanese called the F-4-F the "Beer Bottle" It was just an F-3-F with one less wing.

[SSGDragonSoldier]

In "Flight of the Phoenix" you'll see a Coffman Starter used..

[ninetalis]

im was wondering, on the last photo or drawing/painting whatever, is that a belgian version? i was wondering because of the colors on the propeller are ones from the belgian flag

[ManofWonder82]

@ninetalis It's just how some of them had the tips of their props back then. Like today they're just a solid black or yellow. It's just to show people where not to step when the plane's running. :)

[ninetalis]

@ManofWonder82

Just wondering, because i heard that belgium did had some, but i wasnt sure

[evildeathmonkey1]

@ninetalis I know the Dutch had some in Indonesia. So it could very well be the Belgians had them too:)

[ninetalis]

@evildeathmonkey1

Ive seen a book today about the aviation of belgium, and they had some in the regions of the pacific

[nagant1934]

Beautiful. I love this plane..

[macnutz]

Thanks for posting this.

Yes, those black powder cartridges put out a lot of gas. The F4 Phantom could use a five lb black powder canister for start ups if there was no wolverine to pump air through the engine. It was for emergency conditions, of course.

[Bruno47602]

Очень хорошая хроника!А песня вообще великолепная!*****

[mulletcar]

Now THAT is classy!!

[KrillLiberator]

What an informative look at this aircraft, of which I knew next to nothing.

Do I see a few stylistic features shared with the F4F? Those through-and-through wheel wells look familiar, as does the arrangement of undercarriage generally. I notice the fuselage underside appears much 'squarer' in form than the mid-winged Wildcat... I love seeing such 'evolutionary' features! Fun.

[aircarguy1]

thanks for sharing these great videos

[verbusen]

If you are a buff of F3'F-2's then you would like the 1940 Robert Taylor movie "Flight Command" a melodrama of Navy Aviators flying them.

[LupusAries]

the Funny thing is, the Swedish built a jet, the J29 and called it "Tunnan" wich means barrell.^^ And it was called the flying barrell too. Strange coincidence, no? Or as Gibbs would say, there is no coincidence!^^

[justforever96]

So are all the little "title" screens, like when it says "Literally giving her the gun", actually part of the old footage, or is it just made to look like it's out of an old movie? It's pretty well done, but some of the text doesn't look old at all, so I have to wonder. Obviously the FOOTAGE is real, but I can't tell whether it's an old silent movie, or if it's just a "fake" one.

[damedamewanko]

>0:59~1:20 What was he doing? what was that cartridge?

Engine starter?

[mongorians22]

480? are you sure you didn't mean 380 because the air speed record in 1939 was 469 mph, and biplanes arent really built to exceed 400 mph

[justforever96]

@mongorians22 When it says "480" it's referring to the dive he just made..."and the wings stay on!" That was pretty good back then, to make a dive that fast and not shed your wings. Like you said, 480 is very fast for a biplane. But speed records are for LEVEL speed, how fast you can go on engine power alone. The P-38 had a max speed of like 400mph, but it could almost go supersonic in a dive. Early jet fighters could break Mach 1 in a shallow dive, but not in level flight, etc.

[MCCXK120]

As ever- a great video and music from Bomberguy- Thank you.

[justforever96]

Is there anyone who can explain to me how the heck a cartridge starter WORKS? I mean, beyond "you put the cartridge in the slot and fire it and it spins the engine...."

I mean, does it work sort of like an inertia starter, only it uses the blast to spin up the flywheel before in engages the clutch? Even just a hint or something would be great.

[spitfireJEJ]

@justforever96 When the cartridge is fired, the expanding gasses push down a piston in a small cylinder. At the bottom of the piston is a rack which connects to a cog in line with the crankshaft so the latter is set in motion and hopefully, if properly primed etc. the engine fires.

[justforever96]

@spitfireJEJ Thanks; I think I've figured out the theory, but it still annoys me a bit that I can't find any actual diagrams of a Coffman starter, or any videos of one being used (besides the scene in The Flight of The Phoenix, which I don't think is very accurate). If the engine started right up, it'd be fine, but considering how long they have to crank old engines to start them at air shows, it's hard to imagine; a cartridge can't last very long. But better than hand-cranking like the Bf 109!

[CheetahFoxx]

Wow, an old cartridge ignition.

[Bazgatow87]

I can not believe that it is almost two years ago, that I´ve seen this video first. Again thank you for sharing and the excellent choice of music =)

[MadDogDucati]

well, navies around the world thought that biplanes were needed to get off and on carriers. Brits used them well into WWII, helping to sink the Bismark and the Italian battle fleet.

[jakefree25]

Because the Brits gave their carrier aviation the last priority in aircraft procurement and budget

[MadDogDucati]

probably, but the philosophy was also different.

[binaway]

@jakefree25 which was fortunate as the Bismark's anti aircraft guns were designed to shoot times planes flying at 300mph or above. They couldn't be calibrated for a plane flying as slow as the swordfish (98mph) and was defeated by the obsolescence of these planes.

[KrillLiberator]

@binaway The issue of Bismarck's poor AA gunnery has to be seen in context. Prior to the London Naval Treaty ships, NO capital ship had effective AA capacity; even then it wasn't until AA radar and VT fuses arrived that naval AA became a true counter to massed air attacks. All the old AA cruiser conversions demonstrate this, as does PoW's poor showing against massed G3Ms in 1941. Before 1944, the only effective AA defence at sea was a fighter CAP.

[DoubleDutchBust]

1:23 ng hmm?

[DEP717]

These were in a couple movies made before the US got into WW2, including "Dive Bomber" from 1941. The F4F replaced it just before the US got into the war

[ralsterV]

This is one of my favorite pre-war US planes--I have several books and plans for it. The F3F never saw combat in WW2. Its top speed was 250mph, while a Zero was 340mph. Would never have been used as a frontline fighter in WW2, as even the later F2A Buffalo was outclassed as a fighter. The SBD (Slow-But-Deadly nickname) Dauntless dive bomber was 250mph, so aviation progress simply surpassed this cute little biplane fighter by 1940. Still an important ancestor to the F4F and F6F USN fighters.

[paulrandig]

I like the position of the wheels in flight...

[jetstreamone]

shotgun shell is to start the aircraft and i understand 480 mph is top speed in a dive !

[jetdog95]

lol looks like a 8 guage shell

[jagerfaust2009]

Why is 480 mph mentioned?

[pramboy09]

@jagerfaust2009 capable of 480mph in a dive.

[sbchelldiver]

Actually Yes! it did fight the Zero, as the single winf F4F & F6F, both outgrowths of the F3F...& you all know what happenned...less manoeuvrable than the zero perhaps, but faster & much much tougher!!!

[jetdog95]

WHATS THE SHOTGUN CASE FOR????

[Tomcat425uk]

To start the engine. It's actually a blank (no Shot), fired into the cylinders to turn the engine.

[kdraper2007]

the shotgun shell is a blank, this was used to start the motor, the blast would get the prop spinning & hopefully the motor would fire. shotgun shell starters were common in the prop planes.

[bigkitten]

Beg to differ: this was a lovely 'plane...'crank-up' landing gear, but just charming. Yeah: I suppose it was a bit 'Polikarpov-esque', in certain ways. But the I-16 was basically a copy of the speed-winning planes of a couple of years prior.

[leviterande]

whaaaaaaaaaat isnt the mustang faster?

[genysys20]

Haha and we thought that was good when Germany was making the 109, not even close to comparison with this plane

[pinwizz69]

Retractable gear on a biplane ! Did,nt see that everyday back then.

[dustziggy]

Would have been 'interesting' getting into a dogfight with a Japanese Zero

[Parubhi]

Beautiful.

[julay77]

It all indicates that this bullet could have been a simple copy of the famous Sovietische Polikarpov 16, ain't it?

[xmeda]

Polikarpow I153

[blownglasslide]

Ummmmmm, not really. Other than the fact that they're both single seat biplanes, they really don't have much in common.

[HRMOKeefe]

Straight and level it does 175/180 mph just cruising. It's a pretty speedy little airplane." When asked how maneuverable they are, he replied "... they do good loops and things but the ailerons are not very effective like you think they would be. It's actually kind of sluggish with a low roll rate

[HRMOKeefe]

Hinton, "... the thing accelerates real fast on take-off. When you push the throttle up you use 35 inches ... which is like 800 hp. The airplane rolls only a short distance before it breaks ground, so there's not a problem with directional control. The climb angle is real good. You don't have to run the engine very hard. It'll climb a couple of thousand foot a minute at 120 mph.

[HRMOKeefe]

The Air Museum Planes of Fame president, Steve Hinton, still flies the planes, described them as "... really good airplanes, well built." The three examples are basically stock. The instrumentation has been changed and modern brakes added, and manual gear retraction system is still in place,electric system can also be used.

[HRMOKeefe]

Three new F3Fs built in Ft Worth in the last few years, one now at Galveston Air museum?

[ryanspeed]

Cool video, thanks for posting!!!

[375GTB]

The Gulf Oil Co. GulfHawk F3F flew in airshows untill well after WW II.

The Brewster Buffalo, mentioned, above is an entirely differant aircraft.

J.C.

[saito125]

What was that cartridge for?

[spencnaz]

The cartridge is for the Coffman starter. Basically it's using a blank shotgun shell to start the engine.

[R686Mack]

It never fired a shot in anger, but it trained many flyers. State of the art as far a biplanes went. Would have loved to have seen one go up against an Italian CR 42.

[osp80]

if the gloster gladiator could do it,the f3f could.the gladiator even had kills against the macchi monoplanes.the f3f would've been good against japanese perrys and fixed gear monoplane nates

[cajunhornet60]

Loved this lil Plane saw it fly at Amarillo Texas; incredibly maneuverable; they are BUILDING these again for special orders (Millionaires).

[peepeevagi]

My grandad used to have one of those.

Awesome piece of work, though it makes landing tricky.

[planeguy51]

An ex-military pilot named Al Williams, piloted a modified F3F called the "Gulfhawk",

for Gulf Oil.

It was used to test new oils, lubricants, etc,

during WW2.

It currently resides in the Smithsonian.

[itsOthatOguy]

is it just me or does that look close to a F2A buffalo?

[planeguy51]

Yeah, I think you're right.

The Buffalo was a much maligned airplane,

that the Finns used with great success against the Russians.

[blownglasslide]

Oh for the days when you could just pick one of these up from a surplus sale :)

[kdraper2007]

Kind of nhard to think that only 5 years seperate the F3F from the F4F. Early F4F was also a bipe. this would be a cool plane to have. many WWII Navy & Marine pilots flew this in advanced training so it was an important aircraft.

[Grendelrex]

The 480mph was the speed in a dive, not level flight, and any less drag is a good thing regardless whether it's a biplane or not.

[DartDakota]

480 mph? Who were they trying to kid? And who on earth thought it was a good idea to retract the u/c with all the other drag of a bipe? ;-) It's a KOFFMAN starter by the way. Used a special BLANK shotgun cartridge to ignite the mixture and get the motor running. Similar sort of effort used on some early jets.

[smurfswacker]

Come on, they saved a lot of power by retracting the gear. It was a neat mechanism, too...when I was a kid I had an F3F-3 model with authentic working landing gear. Wish I still had it.

[yyk99]

What is that cartridge for (in "literally giving her the gun" episode)?

[Bomberguy]

Thats a starter cartridge. Basically a gas generator that starts the engine

[SmiertSpionem]

Yeah I bet it started with a cough, man! ;)

[KurtGnu]

Ah, hello.. Just researching some, as I picked up a 'Special Hobby' 1/72 F3F-3 kit for the Christmas competiton.. I now have a month to build it.. It's a nice kit to look at, with resin and etched brass.. but Im don't know what it's like to build yet.. :) :)

[SmiertSpionem]

Expect a tricky build? I don't like the sound of resin.

[KurtGnu]

Smiert.. Neither do I.. but it's things like the cockpit floor, and sides, which otherwise isn't included.. and it'll be easier to do the resin once it's sawn and cut off it's mould, than to scratchbuild with plastic card.. Not that I know why they did such a detailed cockpiot anyway, they provided a closed canopy.. :P The build will be as tricky as I make it.. :) It'll need some rigging, but I haven't yet found a decent picture to use, to see how the rigging goes.. :)

[BaronKrolok]

I did the F3F in 1/32, it was extremely tricky to build: the propeller was connected with the undercarriage (done by Zahnräder - do not know the english word for it), so when you turn it, the undercarriage will go up/down, never saw this kind of mechansm again.

[KurtGnu]

Baron.. Yes, I have read a review aboiut the 32nd scale model.. It's nice with moving parts, but they do tend to complicate the build.. :)

[BaronKrolok]

I did the F3F in 1/32, it was extremely tricky to build: the propeller was connected with the undercarriage (done by Zahnräder - do not know the english word for it), so when you turn it, the undercarriage will go up/down, never saw this kind of mechansm again.

[killingamps]

@Bomberguy Used also in "Flight of the Phoenix"--they only had three of them left when it was time to start the engine, leading to some tension.

[505197]

@yyk99 It is the starter, I believe it was called a Coffman Cartridge. The thing probably burns fairly slowly, but it does appear to be a shot gun shell, so maybe since they were fairly common perhaps was used without the shot They made self starters mandatory back in the day for the Indy 500/ Harry Miller was the Penske of his day, more so actually. He dicided to forgoe the standard fare of a battery and starter and used a similar system to the Coffman, which met the spirit of the rules.

[MrJp990]

@yyk99 It looks like a 12 guage blank shell

[smurfswacker]

My dad was a Navy airplane mechanic in the late 30's. He worked on a lot of F3F's, and we still have some photos of his squadron's F3F-3's. Dad was with Fighting 3, which used the "Felix the Cat" logo. (Earlier Felix had belonged to another squadron--VF-6, I think--but the logo went to VF-3 after some kind of reorganization.)

[denberg2]

Keep 'em coming, Bomberguy!