Tales From The Jungle: Margaret Mead - Part 6 of 6

[BOULDERDP]

Kinda biased toward Mead but good to hear both sides.

[SlySoiBee]

Samoan girls Y U No tell the truth? D:<

[guatahala]

@SlySoiBee

Because trolling is universal :D

[SlySoiBee]

@guatahala Lol seems legit >>

[buttercakeja]

As a PhD student in social anthropology I truly believe that a fieldworker can not just relies on interviews. You would not know if the interviewees are lying or they have some reasons to conceal the truth from you. I did collect my data through interviews, both formal and informal, but I always double-checked those information I gained by observation. I dont think that Mead was so naive to believe all the Samoa girls said about their nighttime activities without double checking the fact.

[thestrangejames]

Am I the only one who can't think of any good reasons to support either Mead or Freeman?

[rockymountainprep]

... she wanted a certain outcome...

[ratrap1984]

i think that hey are both wrong and for the same reason. they were looking for answers and skewed the data so they could get the result that they wanted. i think that is why freeman waited till after mead was dead to try and discredit her

[TehClockwork]

This documentary was way too nice to Mead.

[jradetzky]

this documentary is very good. It would have saved me a lot of reading during my PhD

[tamasandy]

interesting that samoan humor is defined as lying. uh... it's called being facetious or sarcastic.

most samoans would agree with freeman's word over mead. in fact, most samoans would take insult to meads book... but simply, samoans are human too. samoans think, feel, and express themselves just like anyone else in any culture. the end of the documentary says it all...

"both chaste and promiscuous, laid back and disciplinarian. in fact, a place much like anywhere else."

[makaroni1796]

The Samoan girl said that Samoan girls are terrific liars. If that's the case...how do you know if she's not lying to Freeman and Heinmans? It's impossible to determine how valid the interview is.

[Samuelhonkman]

Yeah, Mead may have been lied too, may have been looking for something and this blinded her to areas requiring greater attention.

Still, Freeman was studying a different Samoan group, and gaining access via an entirely different level in the hierarchical structure, talking to different people with different views and interests.

Freeman was also looking for different results, in a Westernised Samoa. And he took her work out of context.

No one should rush to damn or praise either too highly.

[suddenlyitsobvious]

It's clear that this is not just about Mead getting lied to; she was without a oubt completely unequipped psychologically, culturally and otherwise to take the pulse of such a society. Just LOOK at her!

Plus she went there with an agenda. She was given fame because the system needed to engineer a "counterculture" over here...

[talenia21]

Hey fatso, just because Americans wink when they lie, doesn't mean people 2800 miles away do the same thing.

[Sinalove1]

Good doco but I don't think most of us Samoans care what the anthros think - hilarious. If you want to know a Samoan then you must understand our sense of humor. Mead missed it. The word 'ula' is translated as 'lied' when in fact it means to 'tease' or 'make fun of', like many cultures, 'if you ask a stupid question, you get a stupid answer'. To this day, we still like tease people, especially tourists.

[jodabug8]

Never send a young 23 year old woman - new to the outside world - to do an old man's job, she'll only get lied to. LOL Poor Mead...and to think she thought our people were savage with no knowledge of anything.

[Rocinante1977]

Haha that is kind of funny. A book based on a lie. But what if the woman lied to Freeman about lying. Then she's just a bitch. haha

[DarthBleh]

@Rocinante1977

Haha, that's what I think. I've been told the reason the woman said she had lied to Mead was because later in life, with the extreme religiousness that took over Samoans, women wouldn't accept they had casual sex. I'm curious as to why that's not mentioned in here.

[2x2c4u]

If you need to know the facts about what the old lady is trying to explain, just get about 4 Samoan Young Girls and ask them some question about anything. See if you could get some facts about anything you needed to know.

[2x2c4u]

Ok, now you got your facts (remember that's your facts but not the real facts) for your book. You are now ready to write your book with all that information that the 4 Samoan Young Girls provided you. Get the facts about the Samoan People and their Culture before you write a book, so there will be no controversy. And for the 4 Samoan Young Girls, they will always have the last laugh for the rest of their lives.

[uso4life274]

THE OLD LADIES LYING LMAO!!! look guys they are both right in my eyes, they may have travelled to samoa on different occasions and study different villages and the people in it, its safe to say they both went away with different conclusions at the very end, i dont see why everyone is taking sides on this matter. SAMOA MO SAMOA!!!

[Adeltraut]

funny, I am an anthropology student in Berlin and I was taught in my very first lessons to keep Margaret Mead's failure in mind as a warning example. It depends largely on who you are in the field what you will see or find out.

But I got the feeling that this special view - humans are living beings without having any "nature" - is still strong in anthropology. I think the movie is right - it is a very comfortable thought that one is the creator of his own life.

[wakemeupinclass]

Well, I loved Margaret Mead's whole idea about Samoa however Freeman definitely wins. I like Freeman too though :D haha. Great documentary!

[bummer2000]

The way this documentary presents this is like academic gossip rather than an intellectual debate, Freeman did not spent 40 years to "discredit" Meads thought, he spent that time to present a diffrent, though questionable, opinion. If the documentary had cared to study Mead's work in its entirety, or the complete dismantling of sociobiology in fields of social sciences, it would have given a fuller view of the debate, and reveal how little it matters.

[manusamoa2009]

Its not honesty correct from the Name of Jesus Christ ,if Mead romantic view was right,why didn't built up any sex factory in samoa compare to western life?compare to a lots of media and sexy business doing in western world?Freeman was an angle to guide the people in right track than before,,,,,,Mead record the weakness of other people but she didn't look with herself,

[index23432]

You see what you want to see. Both scientists went to the island in order to find out evidences that corroborates with their previous ideas. Probably both neglected clues opposing their believes, and reinforced or embellished those action which were in favor of their concepts. At the end, both scientists became rich and famous for it. The rest is the rest.

[bbsirup]

I don't know wether these from BBC were high, on LSD or what, but I think that message is quite clear: DEREK FREEMAN WON! And I also have very strong feeling that they've tried to present Freeman as diabolic maniac, and Mead as holy woman.

[zeezeeangel]

at first I thought the same. though the ending comments saying they were both right and both wrong was probably what they were really trying to say. They can't find absolute truths about any culture.

[tom6612]

So many disingenuous comments. The truth is the conclusions reached by both parties are about as political as you can get.

However work done by Gladwell in his book "Outliars" strongly backs up Meads conclusions about how nurture plays a great effect. Others have also shown nurture is extremely influential.

Thats bad news for people that want claim that certain people are just inferior and nothing can be done to change that.

[Featheredman2009]

They didn't know that each one is a natural genius is all and it awakens per circumstance ; varied per individual in Samoa.

[Featheredman2009]

Common misunderstanding

[lisatip5]

samoa always make joke it need 10 years before you know it well 1year is not good enough

[feb22105]

Cheeeee hooooo! I love Samoa!

[corban227]

its funny that the Samoan girl admitted to lying to Mead but people still argue she is correct.

[smellycow6]

@corban227 she was the wrong age do and was a known virgin

[DarthBleh]

@corban227

I've been told the reason the woman said she had lied to Mead was because later in life, with the extreme religiousness that took over Samoans, women wouldn't accept they had casual sex. I'm curious as to why such a theory is not mentioned in here. And no, Freeman didn't win, "rofl". Neither did Mead.

[fringeelements]

@corban227 This is actually quite common in egalitarian "science".

[Jenounes]

Funny...two years later people arguing on the same topic...hahahahahaha!

[Jenounes]

Ok, a lot of complaints...but no love for fieldwork...

That's Mead's point, she was driven by a sigle question and for a passion towards her study...If you were to refer to any other place on earth there would always be someone complaining about it's truthness, realness, etc.,etc.etc...There is a simple difference between people who believe in what they are doing, and people who do not.

=P

[StevenShields29]

Oh, man, 0:26

Margaret Mead=OWNED!!!!!

[corban227]

rofl

freeman wins

[Jadeden]

this goes to show that everybody is very different and very unique in there own way, no matter which way or angle you look from everybody has his or her own point of view of things in life, we can all argue or try to justify the rights and wrongs of Meads vs Freeman but you got to wonder will it ever end. Nature or Nurture who knows just something to keep our minds occupy while life goes by.....glad i saw this video, thank you for the upload...aloha!!!!

[Twirble]

To much attention was given to Freeman and his poor reasoning skills and not enough to Margaret Mead IMHO. How many on here have actually read the book? She knows the girls are liers; she knew the girls were liers; such good liers they used chickens blood to disguise the fact that they were not virgins during the hymen breaking ceremony before marriage.

[peacekoolj]

man they

both kno nufin Im Samoan an my missus is aussie we live together nd everything, nd she still doesnt understand our culture, and the Samoan People r very matuer wen dey hav 2 be coz dey hav alot of pride 4 dere culture n very down 2 earth wif jkes, its a way of comunication N a feel of freedm Coz wat we r learnt since birth is alot of Respkt and the parents would go 2 full measures for us to learn Respkt, Samoa is a independent Cuntry N dere both realy not helpn it stay dat way

[oGNaC]

such a manipulative man as freeman could have easily paid that old lady to say whaqtever he wanted her to, and the lady also might have been hiding the casual sex due to protecting the samoan culture and her own reputation. this whole argument of nature vs nurture is ambiguous to begin with

[meotoko77]

You see, we dont know that, but since she said it we can only deem it as truth. There is nothing we can do it.

[Larkinchance]

The detractors of Mead noted here are Christians bent on obliterating any culture that does not agree with narrow view.

Today, they are destroying the remnents of the Amazonian natives simply because it is different..

[potifara100]

Great comments lekea08, this is a total lie and Mead had purposely wrote her book the way she would have wanted. This is nothing but one big lie. Why did she interview young kids but not adults. I'm in the process of finding out more about this for the sake of young Samoans to come.

[lekea08]

Where do these people get off??? As a Samoan, Margaret Mead was unfortunately misled. Of course she had to come up with something that would be in line with what she wanted the outcome to be. Was her fame worth lying about our culture and how Samoan society was? Well the Anthropological world really needs to take a good look and study at this, simple because the perception of our Samoan people are deeply affected by this, and how she gained fame at the expense of ridiculing our culture

[inferno0020]

As an anthropology student, i fully agree with what you said. Sadly, people in my department still do the same thing Mead had done.

[HoneySmurf]

yes, and yeas. As my ethnography professor says

"you can never know the truth, only what they tell you."

This is the nature of learning ANYTHING from the words of others. In Mead's defense, she spent the later part of her career developing ways to try to overcome this kind of colonialism.

Also, do you guys think that it is possible for human "nurture"

aka culture, to be outside of human nature???

sincerely .

[inferno0020]

Actually they are worse than Mead. American anthropologists made up their ethnography in the name of "cultural relativism". They don't give a damn about nature nor nurture anymore

I remembered one of my professor said: "It is useless for you to go to the field for the fieldwork because you see nothing there". That is bullshit. If fieldwork is useless, why do we even need anthropology?

[somor98]

Margaret Mead got it way wrong.

[hamocydal1]

u want to know the best line out of this whole series?

"you know samoan girls are good liars.."

hahahaha!

tala mo'i a!

choooo hooo!

[hamocydal1]

my bad i fudged the quote..

itz actually..

"As you know, Samoan girls are terrific liars.."

LMAOOOOOOOOO!

[leonerhian]

i hate dramatic reconstructions. this is stupid; in the sepia toned clips, they're at Papase'ea sliding rocks in Upolu. it irritates me because the whole story is on AmSam. secondly, im ambivalent towards Freeman but im so not feeling the bias BBC is engaged in through this whole programme: they're making him look unneccessarily loony and crazy

[humanist7117]

This video errs in using the general term Anthropology when they are referring to Cultural Anthropology. This is not about physical anthropolgy>

[lemafai]

Wow, that is my great grandmother that they interviewed at the beginning of this clip. May she rest in peace.

[popinjay3000]

it was the other chap who mentioned objectivity speaking up for freeman- its difficult to even watch a you tube video with objectivity =no subjective lens no anthropology...and how unethical were those aaa handjobs!

[ayalausc]

It was very arrogant of Freeman to say (allegedly) that he was "objective." No one is objective in science. One can have a perfect sample size, with a perfect methodology to analyze data, and the observer can still be biased in his/her analysis for whatever reason. Just look at the fiascos in clinical trials where there are methods other than observational field work.

[AkeNia029001]

Science?What crap!the point of da matter is dis-u palagis (Foreigners) cum 2 Samoa using yr own sordid & limited knowledge 2 try and teach us & da World what OUR CULTURE is suppose 2 b?-UNBELIEVABLE!MM went wif da mentality of a racist,sh ws lonely, tryin' 2 discover her own sexuality & using our people as a front 2 hide her own sordid fantasties.Derek Freeman ws correctin hr wrong, but ws ignored by pple dat don't knw an ounce of da Samoan Culture,life or people like Derek did.

[bananabrothaz007]

It wouldve been nice if BBC went around and asked SAMOANS what they thought about the whole debate!Interviewing the offspring of Mead and Freeman bears no significance to what Samoa and her people are made up of. Only Samoan people can tell you what Samoa is 'really' all about.And going solely on case studies done by papalagi just means that once again the white man has shafted our country of its true nature!This doco showed how truly ignorant some white people really are

[frickenalizethis]

While I agree that the Samoan voice would have been ideal, it was beyond the scope of this episode's purpose - to illustrate how anthropologists are influenced by their own contexts. It would probably do well to have another episode that focuses on the Samoan's ideas about Mead and Freeman's work where their views could be showcased. Mead and Freeman were the objects, rather than the Samoans, of this 'anthropoligical study'.

[eskimoplanecrash]

this movie is obviously delivered 'compliments from the margaret mead fan club'

anyway, this is a good idea, allowing the ethnic group to analyse itself...

[WYDNZHAKA644]

As a Samoan, I can't stand palagis (Foreigners) trying 2 explain and making a mockery out of my culture-if sh ws alive nw guaranteed, on hr rtrn sh wld hv been clubbed 2 death. MM went wif da mentality of a racist,unfortunely we being hospitable people dey wld hv accommodated what she was yearning 4. Now da Samoan Scholars around da world R banning 2getha 2 correct MM wrong like Derek Freeman tried but ws ignored by pple dat don't know an ounce of Samoan life or da people!

[mightisright]

Yes, liberals like Mead are the worst racists of all. They insult all humanity with their lies.

[inferno0020]

lol

I don't think that anyone will really take those young Samoa girls' joke seriously except Mead

[Cheesecakebobby]

To those of you who say we should just go around asking villagers about their own experiences - anthropology does not deal with what people say they do, it deals with what they ACTUALLY do. It can be interesting to see how people will present themselves to others, including anthropologists, but all people say one thing and do something else, even without realising. The fact the Samoan interviewed by the Australian admits to lying is evidence that you can't just go by what people say.

[frickenalizethis]

Well, structure and practice are intimately entertwined. You need both and what people say is a whole study in and of itself! Perceptions...

[hekahorse]

Prime example of the Palagi's (Foreigners) raping a culture that isn't theirs, thinking they could read into peoples traditions and lifestyles by picking up on what little research they gathered. And the research was only done in America Samoa not Western Samoa who have dropped the Western and is only known as Samoa...so really these two poga'uas only got it from America Samoa not Samoa Samoa hahahaha Ga'o le kagaka mai Samoa can tell the story the world wants to know about Samoa...

[tribe1]

erry body talk about how much of a whore they are, man when i was in elementry i had sex with ten girls and 2 teachers.. hehehehe....

[Jenounes]

So, both Freeman and Mead may have noticed different aspects on Samoan culture as well as Samoans themselves are able to watch their own lives since they have their own specific bias...

The real matter here is: do these research methodologies fit the contemporary goal of anthropology?

Afterall Mead was a leading personality representing the youngsters of her own culture and that's what she did best! ^^

[frickenalizethis]

One could argue that an anthropologist's work does more to explain how they themselves are and think rather than who, or what, they think "Otherness" is... Sound Geertzian? :)

[Jenounes]

Every field-work as describes Clifford Geertz is a wab of meanings followed by a particular interpretation of a given social structure which is always dinamic and passionate of being understood in a wide range variety. It means, we're atached to the anthropologist subjectivity...

[Jenounes]

It's not a question of "being truth or not", for most anthropologists it's a methodological issue, Mead and Freeman wrote their books in different historical periods, enveloped by their own cultural contexts.

[tribe1]

thats a big jump for a third world country. yea i can see the dramatic change with a industrial country like the U.S. there are dramtic changes from 20's to the 70's here in america, but a third world country like Samoa. i think it very unlikely.

[lantariz]

That's what I was thinking the whole time.

[segaula220]

"Maybe Samoa is more complex than what Mead and Freeman portrayed"...ya think? I say, maybe if we let the indigenous people tell their own stories and create their own portrayals of themselves we wouldn't have so much controversy like this one.

[2000coco]

they should've interviewed random local samoans and asked for their views on which came away with the truer version - Mead's or Freeman's ...Mead did miss the joke. her whole book was a joke

[emtube]

Another excellent documentary by BBC -- Thanks for posting this! I live in Japan, and otherwise would have no access to these wonderful programs you've posted.