Quantum Consciousness - Criticism of the Penrose Hameroff Theory Part 1/2

[pikiwiki]

the tough part is proving the invisible is real..

[ThisOneIsTaken]

Tegmark's criticism has already been answered to some time ago. He criticized a model of his own construction, not the actual Orch-or. There should be a lecture on youtube titled "defending Orch-or" where Hameroff contests the most common criticisms to it.

[Swidhelm]

If there's ever evidence for anything super natural, I think it would no longer be considered super, but just natural.

[israelsocratus]

Does electron have consciousness ? Molecular biology and molecular evolution Cosmology and cosmic evolution If Universe evolves can electron evolve too? Does evolution of life begin on electron’s level? Origin of life is a result of physical laws that govern Universe. Electron takes important part in this work Question Why does the simplest particle - electron have six formulas: E=h*f, e = +ah*c , e = -ah*c, +E=Mc^2, -E=Mc^2, E= ∞ ? Electron is not as simple as we think

[PianoIsTheRemedy]

@israelsocratus Sorry, but your comments here are too incoherent for me to follow.

[givemeblowjob69]

@PianoIsTheRemedy Hey man, nice video. I doubt quantum consciousness is a scientific theory because of experimental data being able to prove it, well for now anyways. The strong anthropic principle is a more interesting thing to look at, I mean you been an atheist and all. This "fine tuning" of the universe for intelligent life is remarkable and its very hard for a scientist such as yourself to say its purely by chance. Cheers

[Zee96969696]

I think the riddle that has to be solved is how to get something out of nothing. How to break the barier of nothingness? There are no barriers there, is there? How do we even approach this riddle? But there's one other riddle asking to be solved, what is awareness? What is experience? That's what philosophers should be thinking about. What in the wholy world is 'beeing aware of something'?, what the hell is that? That's why I think something supernatural is going on for sure, something strange

[Zee96969696]

this is a good video. I don't know what to think about Orch-OR. But I have absolutely no dought that there's something very supernatural going on in this reality. If you think very deeply about it, then you'll realise that having a reality with objects in it is much stranger than having reality with no objects in it. How out of nothing could there be objects? OR, how could there be no NOTHINGNESS in the begining? Something supernatural is deffinately going on. Something out of nothing?

[Zee96969696]

the idea that computers will become conscious just from the increased the number of bits that go into the computer is the most idiotic idea in the world, this shows how much scientists can get cought up in a theory such as evolution and think that nothing other than evolution can exist. I'm not saying evolution is wrong but can there be any space for consciousness? Or does it have to be absolutely rejected because the theory of evolution doesn't predict it? Most scientists are idiotic squares

[powerdriller10]

What Penrose states is that the number of neurons and interconnections is 10 to the 14. And that that number is way too small for consciouness to appear. The micro-tubules would increase the number to 10 to the 24 or more. Any way, the 10-to-the-24 has to pass its results and findings to the 10-to-the-14 for real actions could take place.

[powerdriller10]

Penrose did not pay attention to one of the stories told in Godel-Escher-Bach of Douglas Hofstadter (MIT 1978) a book that deals with similar themes like Godel Theorem, intelligence. In one of the stories, or parables, an ant-eater explains how an ant-colony is structured and operates. How symbols appears and be used for sending messages and feedback, symbols made of ants formed in line and exchanging scents. Some symbols acted in various levels, multiplying their meanings, chunking info.

[tatsumakisempyukaku]

You might be able to refute hammeroff by attacking his trying to objectify consciousness when ontologically it's a 1st person subjective reality, not a 3rd person objective ontology. I mean how is the brain an experience? Emergent properties fails cuz the effect can't have more than da cause

[tatsumakisempyukaku]

My take in all this is consider the fact that consciousness is necessary. Why? B/c nothing is ever said without it. Logic, science, language, mathematics are all done in consciousness. Our brain is a conscious phenomenon. To say there is no conscious one would have to be conscious

[JohananRaatz]

You are made of information not matter: watch?v=-ciWYGvpGII

[hartejoseph]

how is it supernatural it seems perfectly natural to me in that article god gets killed half way through and then he comes back when he collapses himself or when it woke up.Its all just information.Information is food but its good that you keep pushing the questions after all it is an infinite cauldron of knowledge to explore

[hartejoseph]

the cell walls have micro tubials as well they are liquid crystal semi conductors i think its beautifully simple myself i think they are both right

[GirlyVoice]

Penrose's google techtalk talks about microtubules. I found it hard to follow personally!

[PianoIsTheRemedy]

@GirlyVoice I think Hameroff uses all the jargon -- to blind people with science -- but I don't think there is substance behind his theories. I have more education about the brain than most, and I think his microtubule theory is silly.

[trin1721]

@PianoIsTheRemedy couldn't agree with you more. Hameroff only seems to be able to convince the ignorant.

[JohananRaatz]

@PianoIsTheRemedy Tegmark's criticism is good -but may be wrong. This has to do with the warm brain problem -which is a serious problem, but not insurmountable.

Churchland's on the other hand comes from eliminative materialism and it's very hard to take that view seriously. It's essentially arguing that we are all p-zombies -which is immediately refuted by our own awareness.

[IoPizzaPlanet]

@PianoIsTheRemedy You'd better take a look at this: watch?v=-WjFC3eQiNA

It's connected sort of to Orch-OR at least the end of it. It's VERY interesting though.

[fishybishbash]

@PianoIsTheRemedy I agree that you'd need cast iron evidence before accepting any proposition that what we call consciousness is actually part of the fundamental fabric of space-time; but don't let the 'supernatural' moniker deter you from considering the notion. Physics is being dragged kicking and screaming in that direction anyway. We know very little, but at least we're getting some decent tools together. Nice post.