@NashvilleKildCountry Well, I don't know if that's exactly how I'd characterize it. Instead it could be "I'm hitting you with this club because you didn't pick the option you weren't even aware existed, oh and I'm never going to stop". ;-)
Hell is literal. Separation from God is literal. Reason why People go to hell is because that is their choice...They CHOOSE not to live according to God's will. Everything's got consequences. A child will burn his hand if it's hot. God doesn't punish you 4 not doing what He says. He calls you all the time - Every day...your life is a gift. eyes,legs,arms. Everything!! You purpose is to glorify Him. If you don't, there's consequences...You choose...:)It's all about choice. Choose life.
@HonestDiscussioner Yes u do,but ur ''freedom'' is like this:When a child says,Dad leave me,i wanna touch that hot stove!Is that freedom? If God is good isn't He suppose to know whats best for u?Ur ''freedom'' is actually bondage.Hell is not suppose to teach u anything.U choose to be ''free'',away from God&do ur own thing.Thats stupidity.So God gives u ur ''freedom''.He separates u from Himself&put u somewhere where he is not. U choose it & hell is that place where God is not
@worrierofgod4ever "If God is good isn't He suppose to know whats best for u?"
Only if he exists, and there's no reason to think so.
".U choose to be ''free'',away from God&do ur own thing"
Aren't we already separated from God? Why must that mean eternal torment. What about those that never got the chance to accept or reject God? What about me who doesn't reject God's offer, but rejects the notion that there is even an offer in the first place.
@HonestDiscussioner ''Aren't we already separated from God?'' Not if you're a Christian. In the afterlife you will be totally separated from him because of ur own choice.You hate God,You hate Christianity. You hate His ways, so why wanna b with Him??So he gives u ur choice of ''FREEDOM'' as u see it....
those who did not have a chance to accept him - God is not unjust.He will judge perfectly.Sad to say about ur last comment. God will reject u because u reject Him&His ways....
@HonestDiscussioner Thing is you is SO amazing, He gives you all this time to come back to him and follow him. He won't give up till the end. you have choices EVERY SINGLE DAY. God's grace is amazing. See how He waits for you? Every days is a gift. Your breath, your heartbeat....you just don't see it because of your hardened heart.
@worrierofgod4ever "He gives you all this time to come back to him and follow him. He won't give up till the end. you have choices EVERY SINGLE DAY. God's grace is amazing. See how He waits for you? Every days is a gift. Your breath, your heartbeat....you just don't see it because of your hardened heart."
How do you know any of this? Because your cult leader told you? What's with all the emotional manipulation trying to engage reciprocity behavior via claims of gifts anyway?
@worrierofgod4ever In reality, people "just don't see it", because there is no way to maintain intellectual honesty while believing the stuff you do. You accept magic is real because someone told you. You think that is "proof of God". Well, it's just not. It's a particularly disgraceful instance of gullibility. You even agree with this, because you reject other religions on exactly that basis. Extraordinary claims should require extraordinary evidence.
@HonestDiscussioner ''Nothing you say is backed up by anything that would lead me to believe it is true'' Go back to what Jesus said. He said. If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father. I do nothing by myself, but only does what MY FATHER DOES. So if u wanna understand God, look at Jesus He's the exact representation of God.
@worrierofgod4ever "Go back to what Jesus said. He said. If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father. I do nothing by myself, but only does what MY FATHER DOES."
Quoting a book does not establish fact. I have no reason to think Jesus was the son of God, or that there even is a god. What facts would lead me to that conclusion that Jesus is right when he says those things?
@HonestDiscussioner Well, He had proven He is God. The ball is now in your court mate. God did His part. Jesus said: Only a faithless wicked generation wants to see a sign - they will never see a sign from God.
How did he prove he was God? Because he performed miracles? How do we know he performed these miracles? All we have to go on is a couple of testimonies from unknown authors that contradict each other on very important issues. That isn't evidence, its hearsay.
@worrierofgod4ever Oh how wicked if us for wanting such an extraordinary claim to have some kind of evidence to at lest show the claim of a god is even plausible. What kid of wickedness is this that we don't just simply believe something because someone else says so. Thank goodness this claim of a god will not show people a sign. Last thing we need evidence.
@HonestDiscussioner there's no theology here. It's common sense. There is free will. You can choose whatever you wanna do!!? Can't you? Is there anyone that forces you??No.
So you do have free will.Problem is your ''FREE'' is not really ''FREE'' because you will be bound by all your sin & you know that sin 's consequence is death.
@worrierofgod4ever "You can choose whatever you wanna do!!? Can't you? Is there anyone that forces you?"
No, you can't. Think of the last time you had a meal at a restaurant. What did you pick? Now tell me why you chose that. Unless the only reason was "because I willed myself to" and your level of hunger, desire for pleasure, price of the food, played no roll in your decision, then your decision was predicated on numerous other factors other than yourself.
@worrierofgod4ever God gives us free will? That's like saying: here are 2 options, you can choose what you prefer. But don't choose option number 1, because you'll burn in hell if you do. But you are free to choose it though. Just remember I'll burn you.
@robbegx You have no idea what Free is....Thats the problem. Living outside God's will and His ways is bondage. Why? Because you get trapped in sin and sin leads to death my friend.
Yes, you're right about rehabilitation being better than punishment/revenge. God gave us as people a responsibility to exercise compassion upon each other. The fact that we didn't get it right doesn't make God bad. The wages of sin ARE death. They have to be since God is righteous and cannot tolerate the opposite of Him which is pure goodness. Therefore, anyone who does not accept him, will be thrown with Satan and his angels to burn for their rebellion.
@cj6732 "Yes, you're right about rehabilitation being better than punishment/revenge."
"Therefore, anyone who does not accept him, will be thrown with Satan and his angels to burn for their rebellion."
You don't see how these two statements conflict with each other? It's better to rehabilitate than punish, god is all good, and is all about the punishment.
Let's not forget, not everyone even gets a CHANCE to accept him.
@HonestDiscussioner You're arguing about something you don't know anything about. No offence, but you're just a guy with a camera that doesn't believe he should be held accountable for anything bad he ever did. You have not read the bible, so how can you refute it in the first place? Let alone refute claims by others that have had encounters with God...? THAT'S not logical.
@cj6732 Again, you aren't addressing any of my arguments, you're merely attacking me. That is a classic logical fallacy. I have read much of the bible, I don't know where you get the idea I never touched it.
If we look at 1 Cor.15 we see "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" So an ETERNAL hell cannot be so furthermore the greek for endless is ATELEUTETOS yet jesus used AIONIOS.
furthermore the wicked in Matthew 25 go to "aionios kolasis" which is greek for age-enduring PUNISHMENT/PRUNING, so utter destruction cannot be so, since the wicked are NOT nuked/destroyed utterly.
Eventually ALL will be saved- PLEASE SEE 1 Cor.15:22
...and if you want to know the TRUTH, you need to go to Jesus. Those who followed him were witnesses to his miracles, death, resurrection and ascention through the sky. Jesus proved he was the son of God and he came here to show us (we who are blind) the TRUTH. If you reject Jesus, judgment day will be a very sad and frightening day.
@rickemiranda I don't think he actually did those things. You are believing very innaccurate testimonies that you have no ability to confirm actually happened. Tall tales are often spoken of a person while they are alive. That is why the longer the period between the writing of the gospels and the time of Jesus's death, the more fantastic the story. John was written last, and it has Jesus in the flesh, appearing before 500 people. You are believing in whisper down the lane.
@HonestDiscussioner The first Gospel was written within 60 years after Jesus death. This is a lot closer to any other historical document. Also, the things that were witnessed were recorded by 4 disciples that confirm each other's testimony. Why do we call witnesses to the stand? Because they saw something that took place and they confirm each other's testimony.
@xxskittlez123xx "4 disciples that confirm each other's testimony"
No, we have no idea who the authors were. The church tacked the names on later, and they DON'T corroborate each others testimony. Virtually all of the details for the resurrection which was the most important event in the Theology, do not agree between gospels.
"The first Gospel was written within 60 years after Jesus death."
Which was not written by historians, but fanatical followers who OBVIOUSLY changed the story!
@HonestDiscussioner You see to put your trust in other people's findings. Scientists, theologians, etc.. and here you are arguing with people who have had genuine experiences with the Almighty. That's not logical. It's not logical for you to make your mind up about something without investigating it. God WANTS you to look into these things, coz they're vital. Problem is it's a just too inconvenient to believe in accountability when we can all just worship ourselves, which is what atheists do.
@cj6732 What's illogical is that you think that your experience must be genuine, and that all of the other people who claim to have had an experience that would contradict yours must be . . well whatever it is yours must be correct. What is illogical is that I point out a flaw in your logic, and your response isn't to try and reconcile it, but to distract from it and make point unrelated to whether your original statement was consistent.
@HonestDiscussioner Not true at all, I was not trying to distract from your point. I was simply going to the root of your unbelief, which is that you haven't investigated any of these things, yet you feel the need to discuss them. I don't want you to rely on my experience, what I'm saying is that you should be seeking out your own experience before you discuss something you know nothing about. I'm not defending MY experience, I'm defending the one YOU haven't had yet.
@cj6732 "Not true at all, I was not trying to distract from your point. I was simply going to the root of your unbelief, which is that you haven't investigated any of these things, yet you feel the need to discuss them."
What makes you think that I haven't investigated them. I've spent the past five years of my life investigating them.
Why don't you go look at my video "Atheist Asking for God". That is not the only time, nor the most in-depth time, I've done it.
@HonestDiscussioner Also, are you able to confirm that man was the result of a random evolutionary process? Yet you probably believe that. If your argument is that the theory can be verified then, by those standards, the historicity of Jesus can be verified all the more. You can't apply one standard to the belief in evolution if you are not willing to hold the same standard in considering the historicity of Jesus.
@xxskittlez123xx "Also, are you able to confirm that man was the result of a random evolutionary process? "
Yes. We actually have EVIDENCE, evidence that does not rely on a bunch of people who can't get their story straight. We have fossil records, DNA evidence, retroviruses, and a host of other evidence that all confirms it, but no, some guy 2,000 years ago said some other dude told him that another dude turned water into wine, and now all of this is void? Come on.
@rickemiranda Eyewitness testimony does NOT prove miracles. There was a town of thousands of people who all testified, not more than a century or two ago, that the sun literally came down from the sky and danced before there eyes. This is THOUSANDS of people, are you going to believe the sun actually came down from the sky and danced around for them, when this event was not noticed anywhere else in the world?
@rickemiranda you make the mistake (like most christians) of stating the bible as fact, when we have no way of telling whether those things happened or not, let alone whether jesus was even real.
Also, please do not think that you can attain the truth by pure philosphical argumentation. You can't derive the truth using your mind no more than a fish can understand the universe in the way humans can. You find truth from the one that knows the truth. If there is a God, then he would be a being that knows all things, to include TRUTH.
@rickemiranda " You can't derive the truth using your mind no more than a fish can understand the universe . . "
And yet, we are not judged by our actions, but our ability to know truth. If we cannot know truth, how are we expected to know that the bible is the truth? A murderer to spends his life murdering but repents at the last moment goes to heaven, but the man who is a righteous do-gooder who has a crisis of faith in his few moments goes to hell. Your philosophy contradicts your religion.
@HonestDiscussioner Please don't misunderstand me. Truth CAN be understood by the mind. Finding truth is more like the analogy of a dark room. We cannot see the things around us until they become exosed to the light. Without light, we can only IMAGINE how things are. We might bump into a cold leather couch and IMAGINE that we've bumped into something of our own imagination, that is not a couch.
@HonestDiscussioner : The only way we can know what a couch is, is if we turn on the light and see it. Truth is like the light. When you read the cover story of a news paper and it states certain factual events from a reporter, do you sit there and think, "Gees, I can't verify this really happened therefore, it must not be true!"
@HonestDiscussioner : I'm not sure if you're saying that we cannot know truth or that we can. If you're saying that we can't know truth then consider this question: When is your birthday? If you told someone your birthday after they asked you, then they looked at you and said, that's not true. How would you respond?
It's not a lack of belief in "Religion" that sends people to hell. Here's the analogy. If someone killed one of your loved ones, you demand and expect for a just judge to put the guilty murderer in jail and maybe even execution. Because if the judge does not convict a guilty criminal, the judge is not JUST. God is JUST and must separate sinners from the righteous.
@rickemiranda "ecause if the judge does not convict a guilty criminal, the judge is not JUST. "
So if your wife is murdered, and your children, and you see the murderer laughing about his deed, then a few moments late feels sorry and his dad then goes on to sit in jail for the rest of his life to pay for his son's crime, while his son goes on to raise a family remarkably similar to the one he took from you, you would call that justice and be perfectly content?
Depends on the purpose. There is such a thing as cruel to be kind, and in other cases, the desire to do so stems from previous experience in a primitive attempt to cope with said experiences.
There is always another way out, we don't need to commit crime in the name of good.
People do more evil then good. Would a judge let a killer go if he would say, oh come on judge, I only killed a few, look at the other people that I haven't killed... yet.
We wouldn't have to cope with sad experiences if we wouldn't caused it.
Why wouldn't a judge do let that person go? What is the reason? Simple: so they won't do it again.
This anaology doesn't follow in the cosmic sense, had those that you believe go to heaven still live they'd still commit crimes, just like those you believe go to hell. Eternal punishment for a finite crime, it does not follow what we know to be superior forms of justice and punishment today that show OT and even NT punishment was immoral and childish.
Ur logic shocks me it's like we live in two completely different worlds. Ur observation of this world is really different I would say that it is really poor
Criminal that was not punished for his crimes only becomes more evil. When they know that they r not going to get in trouble no meter what they do, than they start making crimes without holding back.
Yes, I know that I commit horrible crimes in Gods eyes, but Jesus payed for my sins & I will do anything He desires in order to pay Him back.
Not exactly, when we execute a criminal we don't do it in order for him to become better, if we execute him, he doesn't have a chance to become better. Not all punishments exist to correct behavior, some exist for an example, so others would not repeat their behavior.
We were never given a choice? You have it right now, if you don't take advantage of this choice right now, then don't blame anyone for your mistakes.
I don't have the choice to not have a sinful nature. To sin, perhaps, but not to choose their nature. We are born sick and commanded to get better, born with a burden not of our own doing and yet still our responsibility to correct
And I don't believe in the death penalty. That isn't punishment, its retribution. Studies show that the death penalty does not decrease the chance of the crime being committed, so you can argue it is for an example, but it is ineffective. Again, science pwns "God".
Well u also didn't choose ur IQ. U didn't choose how smart u r doing to be born, but u chose to become smarter, if u were able to choose that, than why can't you choose to become Holy? I was born weak & fragile, but I chose to become stronger by going to the gym. Blaming ur responsibility is foolish. We were born with a lot of burdens, but why do u whine only about this burden, get over urself
If scientist don't have God's wisdom, than they can pwn as much as they want, they wouldnt get anywere
Scientists dont' pwn God so much as "reality" does.
I'm not arguing that God is immoral or evil, I'm arguing that the character portrayed in the Bible is evil, immoral, and most damning of all, a bit primitive, almost stupid . . therefore that isn't God.
Because many of the things he advocates can be shown to be primitive and idiotic and we've come up with far better solutions on our own.
We can in fact define what morality is. If we can show that what the Biblical god mandates or how he behaves is contradictory to what morality is, then the Biblical god isn't god. Maybe there another out there, but we can show through study and logic that Yahwey and even Jesus are not moral creatures. Much of the time they aren't even smart. You can point to as many good things as you'd like, but if I can point to one bad or stupid thing (and I can point to many) then that disproves Yahwey.
One cannot choose to become smarter, but only more knowledgable. Intelligence is usually fixed once you reach a certain age
I don't think we have a burden of a "sinful nature", I'm arguing that it doesn't make sense that we are responsible for fixing something we didn't break, at the cost of eternity.
As well, many people died without ever HEARING of Jesus, so no matter what, they go to hell.Our inner strength is something in our nature as well, its inescapable with an omniscient being.
Wow, I admire your faith in your self-made religion!
Some people become stupider when they get older because they don't care about knowledge. I don't know how you can make such false assumptions.
I would say that fixing problems is a lot of fun. Games without problems or story are just so boring. Mexico and Rome use to triad until Catholics stopped the trading, so natives knew all about Jesus, they were just ignorant idolaters.
I am not saying fixing something or solving a problem is a bad thing, or something we shouldn't be asked of to try.
I'm saying it isn't fair condemn a person for being unable to fix something that wasn't their fault.
Someone breaks your lamp and I come in and say fix it, and if you don't I'll kill you, that is not fair, for it wasn't the person's fault the lamp broke in the first place, nor is failing to solve a problem despite one's best efforts worthy of punishment.
And why don't they? Because they don't know they need to get it fixed! No one told them they were born a sinner or any other Christian doctrine.
That's something you don't seem to get. God never let them know anything was wrong . . . so maybe its not that important after all! Maybe he's not actually there, the Biblical god.
Well people around them always tell them that they need to fix their behavior, wifes tell that to their husbands & what to they do? They tell them to shut up! Then they don't know why their wife wants to divorce them!
All people on earth know that they need to be good persons, but the question is, do they try?
I did & success
Most people know about Jesus Death, but do they care? Don't think so. So that is were people like me come in and worn them about their nature, than the rest is up to them.
Your measure of being a good person seems to be whether or not you believe a supernatural occurance happened over 2,000 years ago.
Also we're not talking about those that have heard the Jesus story, we're talking about the ones that never did, and I notice you bring no real evidence that they did in fact know of Jesus and his teachings, and that he died on a cross and was resurrected.
Stop saying you are right and show WHY what you say is true, WHY you think the Jesus story happened.
You also did not respond to my point about those who die without even hearing of Jesus, like say the Native Americans.
1400 years with no chance of knowing about Jesus, which meant hundreds of generations all going to hell without being given a chance.
Now not only has someone broke your lamp, not only is someone threatening to kill you if you fail to fix it, but you have no way of knowing it is broken and you're not aware of the danger of the threat.
I believe I did, but I will try a different approach now
Native Americans have heard of Jesus long time ago, when Rome was still trading with Natives, America was long discovered before Columbus, he was not the first man to walk on American land. The trading of knowledge and resources stopped, Don't remember why but I remember that it was Catholics doing
So I believe that Natives were well aware of Christianity, but those people liked bringing as sacrifices to the sun, more than Christianity.
I would like to see your evidence for any of that. The earliest contact with the Americas by the Eastern continents were Vikings and weren't bringing Christianity.
Romans didn't have ships that could cross the ocean, and if they did the New World wouldn't have been a surprise.
There is no evidence in archeology from oral tradition that talks about Jesus in any way.
Even if someone long ago did tell a few of them, it obviously did not reach many ears, as there would be evidence of such.
The only reason we would commit this "sin" you speak of would be because of the nature we did not choose to begin with. God might as well command us to cross a finish line in a given time period, but break our legs first and then blame us for not being fast enough.
An entity that understands punishment does not punish eternally, nor do they punish out of anything but a desire to help the person become better. Hell does neither of these things, once there it is useless suffering.
Stop dwelling on the past and start looking for a better future.
(The example Im about to use is just an example)
I didnt choose my parents either, but I still have them. It wouldnt be wise to blame God for the existence of my parents. If I dont like my parents all I have to do is become a lot better than them.
If you dont like your sinful nature, than become better than it. Whoever said that you dont have a chance Jesus is your only chance!
Yes, if God exists he is to blame for my parents, for better or worse. He made my soul, made my environment, made the laws of physics which governs all motion, is omniscient, and somehow everything about me is my fault?
Doesn't work like that. A perfect being cannot make a flawed creation, especially not by accident.
Funny, since Jesus did nothing to notify the Native American's for over a millenium. They had no chance.
It's not that I don't "like" it, its that I didn't choose my nature
First off, I'm not "looking for a scapegoat". I flatly say this "scapegoat" doesn't exist.
However I am a determinist, especially in relation to the premise of an omniscient being is concerned.
So God didn't make my environment? Who made theirs? Their parents? Well who made theirs?
Even if God turned a blind eye since creation, the way he set up creation, the way he designed humans, he determined everything that would happen. There is no choice.
I don't think there is such thing as elect, I don't blame God for anything because I don't think he exists. I'm pointing out the flaws in your belief.
If God exists then he created everything there is about us and our world. There is no choice, for anything he does he knows the outcome. He can make anyone do anything without directly affecting them but manipulating thier surroundings. In fact, ANYTHING he does would have far reaching implactions. He controls everything with anything he does.
Maybe it's because the Biblical god doesn't exist.
The problem is that anything he does, including communicating with his followers, would be a manipulation. He would know the way he communicates will determine their actions, and thusly anything affected by those actions.
Take into consideration both possibilities, that the Biblical God exists or doesn't, and show why one is better than the other. Don't base your conclusion on the premise.
"Muslim god tells to kill children that don't believe in their god, that is unreasonable 4 me"
Oh you mean like Yahwey did? You know . . . the guy who was technically Jesus? Like in Eziekal "Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children" or in 1 Sam 15 "Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants" or in Deuteronomy 20? Your god doesn't seem to have a problem with ordering people to kill babies because they belong to unbelievers.
I knew u r going to bring this up, it is only logical for u to do so. Have u noticed that they were ordered to kill their enemies not their own children?
Before u judge them, have u understood in what position they were in?
Think critically: If u would conquer someones land & leave some pple alive what would happen if few years, another war perhaps. Plus those people were too perverted so they wouldnt make good slaves either. They needed to clean the land around them in order to live in peace
Have you read about Sodom? Well the people that the Hebrews had to annihilate were similar to Sodom. Now Sodom was Seriously screwed up. Even the children there, were homosexuals! Sodom was heaven for child molesters.
Those people went over the limit, so that was there consequence.
You don't need to respond anymore Because I am tired of responding to bunch of people for no reason.
Yes, I know what you said, and I immediately warned you that I don't see a reason in debating so you wouldn't try to debate me.
Well, I never said that we are illogical I just said that if we will start to argue on one useless think and never come to a same conclusion, than we have different logics and it would be foolish for us to continue to argue.
I don't think there is anything "useless" we are discussing here. It is in fact of great importance.
As well this is currently a discussion and not a debate, though we could be debating the difference between discussion and debate. The original topic is still a discussion.
I'm confused as to what you mean. They all (at least the majority, which is all we can expect) accept hell. I do not, because the the idea of it is based in a childish understanding of punishment not indicative of the characteristics of the God they claim mandates this policy.
Eternal punishment helps nothing. Nothing is learned, which is why we punish.
Now we are actually getting to the meat of this video.
There is no justice in hell. Given that who we are and what we become is based heavily on how we were created and where we were created, to blame us for what we become is not indicative of an omniscient loving creator that knows everything about us.
Nor does it glorfy God. It is nothing short of infinite waste. That I don't accept that a supernatural event I was not witness to didn't happen does not speak to my character or my actions here on earth.
There's a bottle marked "Poison" that has the antidote to the poison you didn't know\believe you had.
Is it your fault you died because you didn't drink the bottle marked "poison"?
No atheist that I know of recognizes God as the solution to life and still tells God to fuck off. Some claim they would, but none actually BELIEVE this is a viable option.
Rejecting what you KNOW to be a solution is one thing. Not recoginzing it is like getting 10+5 wrong, you're stupid, not evil.
Plus, you are still saying our actions, our misguided actions that have a million reasons behind them that have nothing to do with us, are soley and 100% our fault.
NOTHING is ever one person's fault, and yet this being which should well understand this concept is so quick to condemn someone for eternity for not being capable of doing something that they were created without the ability to do.
Everything is always our fault. How can you be a man and say such foolishness "it isn't our fault, it's not my fault, if you did something wrong the burden of the responsibility is upon your head."
" this being which should well understand this concept is so quick to condemn someone for eternity for not being capable of doing something that they were created without the ability to do."
That is the reason were Jesus comes for, to fix our impossible to solve problem.
The more I listen to this video the less sense it makes. You combine things that don't belong together, if I would start picking on every word of yours you would have a lot of annoying questions.
Perhaps an example? No one else seems to have that issue, and it's very difficult to annoy me with questions, especially when I enjoy constructive criticism. Fire away.
What does anyone else have to do with me? The history has proven us that sometime the majority of people can be wrong.
I am just saying that it is difficult for me to believe that if there is no hell there might be a heaven, it's just so illogical for me.
"No one else seems to have that issue"
It is the same as going to a religious website and saying that you disagree with them and than they reply-Perhaps an example? No one else seems to have that issue. I don't see logic in that.
Factually wrong yes, but if no one had a difficult time understanding something and you did that would seem to imply nothing wrong on my end.
The idea that this is just an experience and afterwards the afterlife is simply rejoining God and he doesn't allow eternal torture I think is a possibility. I go into this in detail on my "One Way God Could Exist" video.
Oh, I understand you Sir. and I also understand what you are doing. I know that you make logical mistakes in your commenting on Hell. If no one else sees it than it is not my problem. I'm just showing the other side to your opinion.
What you have done is called self-made religion and trust me Sir when I am saying this we have enough of those.
What logical mistakes. Be specific. You originally said "your video doesn't make any sense". "I don't understand what you are trying to say" is different from "you are wrong", and it appeared as though you took for former position. If you indeed take the latter, then point SPECIFICALLY to what logical error I made and don't just state I made one.
Also, I am not advocating there is a heaven and no hell. I just know there is no "religious hell" Maybe there is no heaven too. I have no religion.
Ur logical error is not only one there r many, & I don't want to write u an essay on everythin u said wrong. I don't want to have a big argument with people that don't care about what I think, there r people that ask questions & never care about my answer, I am so tired of them.
I just know there's no "religious hell" Maybe there's no heaven too.
This is one of your logical errors. If the is no hell than there is no heaven either There is no maybe. It's illogical to believe only in good things
The only things evil shows me is how not to behave or act.
When in Russia a school was in a captive, did it ever made their people stronger or help them learn, did it pushed them, did that conflict made them better people.
No it didn't, when Russians caught one of the bombers they shredded him top peaces, with there own hands no knives only hands.
Russians became unsecure, depressed, mad, suspicious & racist.
I feel as though while evil indeed sucks, without it, we'd never get anywhere of importance.
I don't like the idea . . . I wish everything was paradise . . . but at the same time I recognize its unfortunate importance in our world . . . and rightfully fight against it.
"he only things evil shows me is how not to behave or act."
Well that's one thing then, isn't it?
Evil also brings charity, and brings people together. It can also destroy lives like you say, but without it, what would we be?
Well, when I use to think about why evil exists I use to come up with a similar conclusion to yours, but now I see that evil is caused by us and Evil is never good and good is never evil, just as love is never hate and hate is never love, even thou love and hate is separated by a very thin wall they are still will never become one. You are a reasonable guy it is easy for you to understand this, right.
"but without it, what would we be?"
Without it we would be a very good angels, duh! ; )
And what are angels then? Can we appreciate the good times when we don't have the bad times to compare it to?
Ever read Shakespear? Romeo and Juliet? I"m assuming you at least passed though it in grade school or at the very least are familar with it as a story.
The preacher in that story declares, quite aptly, that nothing is 100% good or 100% evil. It is always a mix of some sort, thought rarely is it in equal porportions. Even poison gets rid of rats, and even roses have thorns.
Me saying that we would be a very good angels, was suppose to be a bit of a joke. When I said that I meant that people would be very good, & not harmful
Yes that guy is right nothing is 100% good or 100% evil, that is from mens point of a view, we mix good & bad all the time because of our misunderstanding & poor judgment
But God has this limitations & red lines that we shouldnt cross & it's for own good. So there is a such a thing as 100% good or 100% evil. When we mix them it becomes just evil
Okay, now I'm confused, First you say he's right, nothing is 100% good\evil, then you say when it isn't 100% good or evil then its just evil.
"For our own good". What good are you describing? Good for the soul or good for life Is it bad because is screws someone over or taints our soul?
If it's the former then eternal punishment pointless. When we punish a child it isn't to get revenge or prove a point, it is so they won't do it again, unlike hell, which is nothing but childish vengence.
If good is only that which follows God's laws then you are arguing might makes right, in which the reason for morality moves from higher good to nothing more than a pet peeve of the guy with the gun.
If we can show what we believe are God's laws are in fact immoral and not beneficial to humans in any way, then we can show that indeed, they are not God's laws.
Stealing food requires stealing, but lets your kids survive. It is both good and bad.
"there r people that ask questions & never care about my answer, I am so tired of them."
I am, if anything, NOT one of those people.
Check my name, I take my name VERY seriously. My purpose here is for honest discussion and debate.
That does not mean I will agree with you, but given I've asked you opinion twice already I think it would be safe to conclude I actually want to know what you have to say.
The majoirty of my subs agree with me, I need more detractors to balance it out.
First of all, I don't see a reason in debates. I don't have any followers, nor do I want them.
LOGOS- is the word of God, which we get our word logical. Men have corrupted their logic, there are two different logics that contradict each other, and how can people with these logics find themselves coming to the same conclusion? They are obviously going to contradict each other for ever & ever.
Both of us need a same stander rules for logic in order for us to have a reasonable conversation.
I can only say the things that don't make sense to me, & u can give another explanation why u think u r right, but this can go on for ever & I don't want any of that.
I can right u everything that I know that it doesn't fit together in ur video & send it on ur privet messages, but u must understand that I don't want any of long term unreasonable conversations. If u don't believe me, than don't believe me, I'm going to give u a simple explanation, if u can't get it than it is not my problem. ok?
I said "discussion" and debates. Debates are not always in the classical public format, but also an amiable discussion to see whose point holds the most validity, and is important in understanding intellectual concepts.
I've had many decent conversations without the need for formal declaration of logical rules.
Perhaps you don't realize it but for me it appears we've been having one for a little bit here.
Do you have an opinion on annihlationism? In a nutshell its the belief that the when the unrepentent die they stay dead, pretty much the same belief as a scientfitic naturalist. But the the repentent (saved of whatever other terminology you want to use to say "christian") spend eternity in heaven.
While that would at least not be "childish" on god's part and would actually seem plausible and almost reasonable, there are other issues that get in the way.
Firstly, the idea that God's creations could be imperfect, even through choice. The idea that sin enters the world even though God forms us in the womb. How we all got this sin not of our own choosing, we are still being blamed for something not our fault.
Without the sin we didn't choose to accept, we'd all get to heaven.
Are you familiar with the line of apologetics that say the unquenchable fire is one that cannot be doused until it has completely consumed & the eternal death is one from which no resurrection can occur?
This take on the final judgment is what prevented me from running for the doors as soon as I had the capacity to understand the concept of hell.
Truth be told, hell was never a factor in my walk out of the faith at age 28.
That said, eternal torment doctrine, I'd have left sooner. ;)
The irony, in Daniel 3, that tactic didn't work for King Nebuchadnezzar, yet somehow a large majority of Christians seem to think it is perfectly fine.
I doubt they have contemplated it at any great length, but rather dismissed the uncomfortable.
How is this lake of sacred fire going to burn & not consume & still cause great torment, eternally?
God is going to have to simultaneously make the fire heal as it burns at fluctuating rates, so that torment is experienced, lest the fire not cause harm.
A punishment that lasts all eternity is the most ridiculous of notions.
Regarding the lesson about a child touching a hot stove. What parent then proceeds to throw that child out of the house for disobedience? Generally that is when the comforting aspect of a loving parent comes into play.
The God of Eden is anything but.
Not only did he let the child get burned, he put a tempter right in the epicenter to contradict the message of, "The burner is hot."
Even if the Eden tale is just an allegory of mans decent into flesh, one still must do bizarre feats of mental contortionism to dismiss all the ridiculous elements of this story.
It is incredible to free the mind from this utter nonsense.
FYI: it was the tale of Abraham & Isaac that I could never fully apologize away.
Well you can feel pain without any physical damage. We wouldn't be a physical body but just a consciousness conscious of only suffering and pain.
Still pretty rediculous, but at least God doesn't have to keep healing.
Yes, Christians like to turn everything around on us and, God didn't tempt us, Satan did and we're just so terrible and want to be tempted to badly he had to let Satan do it, so it's all our fault.
Even if free will exists, punishment for the sake of punishment helps nothing but satiate a childish and fragile emotional state. Doesn't sound like someone who would also be a supreme being.
At twenty, although I was having doubts, I still considered myself a Christian. I don't remember exactly when I realized first that Jesus was just a man, and then finally that Jesus may not have existed at all in any more real sense than Robin Hood. Most "legendary" characters have at least some basis in reality. But that basis is usually an elaborate synthesis of multiple characters which satisfies some current need. Truth has little to do with it.
Lol nice Intro. Very nice video. Hell is the ultimate coverting protector for most people. Christians are so flooded with the threat of hell when they are young they believe it. Like Santa Claus kind of. Or any other lie you tell them when they are little. It becomes engrained in their minds.
Good points. If you love your child then I bet there's no way you'd lock them in the basement and torture them for a day, let alone eternity, no matter how bad they've been. God would, and he's supposed to be all loving. I wonder how Christians don't see the massive contradiction there.
It's also interesting how Christians interpret how you get to be sent to hell. In the UK most Christians believe good people get into heaven, no matter whether they believe - so us atheists are OK if we're decent people. Seems to be a very American thing that you have to accept Jesus.
And congrats, you definitely deserve more than 300 subs - but I like the smaller channels, on the bigger ones any comments just get lost in the noise.
Quite true sir, on both points. I think the best lesson is to warn you children and then let them go through with it so they realize they should have listened.
Pick Coke or Pepsi, but I'll club you with a ball bat if you choose Coke. But remember you're free to choose either.
NashvilleKildCountry 1 month ago
@NashvilleKildCountry Well, I don't know if that's exactly how I'd characterize it. Instead it could be "I'm hitting you with this club because you didn't pick the option you weren't even aware existed, oh and I'm never going to stop". ;-)
HonestDiscussioner 1 month ago
What the hell is up with 52 dislikes? Congrats, I love bourbon too.
bmwm3cs 1 month ago
@bmwm3cs Votebots, and you have taste good sir!
HonestDiscussioner 1 month ago
Hell is literal. Separation from God is literal. Reason why People go to hell is because that is their choice...They CHOOSE not to live according to God's will. Everything's got consequences. A child will burn his hand if it's hot. God doesn't punish you 4 not doing what He says. He calls you all the time - Every day...your life is a gift. eyes,legs,arms. Everything!! You purpose is to glorify Him. If you don't, there's consequences...You choose...:)It's all about choice. Choose life.
worrierofgod4ever 1 month ago
@worrierofgod4ever "They CHOOSE not to live according to God's will. "
But we don't have free will, and that is demonstrably true.
"A child will burn his hand if it's hot."
Right, so you smack it so he won't do it again. Hell does not teach anyone anything, it's pointless suffering.
"You purpose is to glorify Him."
I have no reason to think there is a "Him" to glorify.
Nothing you say is backed up by anything that would lead me to believe it is true.
HonestDiscussioner 1 month ago
@HonestDiscussioner Yes u do,but ur ''freedom'' is like this:When a child says,Dad leave me,i wanna touch that hot stove!Is that freedom? If God is good isn't He suppose to know whats best for u?Ur ''freedom'' is actually bondage.Hell is not suppose to teach u anything.U choose to be ''free'',away from God&do ur own thing.Thats stupidity.So God gives u ur ''freedom''.He separates u from Himself&put u somewhere where he is not. U choose it & hell is that place where God is not
worrierofgod4ever 1 month ago
@worrierofgod4ever "If God is good isn't He suppose to know whats best for u?"
Only if he exists, and there's no reason to think so.
".U choose to be ''free'',away from God&do ur own thing"
Aren't we already separated from God? Why must that mean eternal torment. What about those that never got the chance to accept or reject God? What about me who doesn't reject God's offer, but rejects the notion that there is even an offer in the first place.
HonestDiscussioner 1 month ago
@HonestDiscussioner ''Aren't we already separated from God?'' Not if you're a Christian. In the afterlife you will be totally separated from him because of ur own choice.You hate God,You hate Christianity. You hate His ways, so why wanna b with Him??So he gives u ur choice of ''FREEDOM'' as u see it....
those who did not have a chance to accept him - God is not unjust.He will judge perfectly.Sad to say about ur last comment. God will reject u because u reject Him&His ways....
worrierofgod4ever 1 month ago
@HonestDiscussioner Thing is you is SO amazing, He gives you all this time to come back to him and follow him. He won't give up till the end. you have choices EVERY SINGLE DAY. God's grace is amazing. See how He waits for you? Every days is a gift. Your breath, your heartbeat....you just don't see it because of your hardened heart.
worrierofgod4ever 1 month ago
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@worrierofgod4ever "He gives you all this time to come back to him and follow him. He won't give up till the end. you have choices EVERY SINGLE DAY. God's grace is amazing. See how He waits for you? Every days is a gift. Your breath, your heartbeat....you just don't see it because of your hardened heart."
How do you know any of this? Because your cult leader told you? What's with all the emotional manipulation trying to engage reciprocity behavior via claims of gifts anyway?
Gnomefro 1 month ago
@worrierofgod4ever In reality, people "just don't see it", because there is no way to maintain intellectual honesty while believing the stuff you do. You accept magic is real because someone told you. You think that is "proof of God". Well, it's just not. It's a particularly disgraceful instance of gullibility. You even agree with this, because you reject other religions on exactly that basis. Extraordinary claims should require extraordinary evidence.
Gnomefro 1 month ago
@worrierofgod4ever " Not if you're a Christian."
Right, then before people are Christians and therefore separated by God they can still be alive, well, and happy. So why is there a hell?
HonestDiscussioner 1 month ago
@HonestDiscussioner You should post a video hell squirrel nut zippers
parsonman05 1 month ago
@HonestDiscussioner ''Nothing you say is backed up by anything that would lead me to believe it is true'' Go back to what Jesus said. He said. If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father. I do nothing by myself, but only does what MY FATHER DOES. So if u wanna understand God, look at Jesus He's the exact representation of God.
worrierofgod4ever 1 month ago
@worrierofgod4ever "Go back to what Jesus said. He said. If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father. I do nothing by myself, but only does what MY FATHER DOES."
Quoting a book does not establish fact. I have no reason to think Jesus was the son of God, or that there even is a god. What facts would lead me to that conclusion that Jesus is right when he says those things?
HonestDiscussioner 1 month ago
@HonestDiscussioner Well, He had proven He is God. The ball is now in your court mate. God did His part. Jesus said: Only a faithless wicked generation wants to see a sign - they will never see a sign from God.
worrierofgod4ever 1 month ago
@worrierofgod4ever "Well, He had proven He is God. "
How did he prove he was God? Because he performed miracles? How do we know he performed these miracles? All we have to go on is a couple of testimonies from unknown authors that contradict each other on very important issues. That isn't evidence, its hearsay.
HonestDiscussioner 1 month ago
@worrierofgod4ever Oh how wicked if us for wanting such an extraordinary claim to have some kind of evidence to at lest show the claim of a god is even plausible. What kid of wickedness is this that we don't just simply believe something because someone else says so. Thank goodness this claim of a god will not show people a sign. Last thing we need evidence.
DebateCreation 1 month ago
@worrierofgod4ever "eason why People go to hell is because that is their choice...They CHOOSE not to live according to God's will."
I already said, there is no free will, and it is a demonstrable, so your theology falls apart.
HonestDiscussioner 1 month ago 5
@HonestDiscussioner there's no theology here. It's common sense. There is free will. You can choose whatever you wanna do!!? Can't you? Is there anyone that forces you??No.
So you do have free will.Problem is your ''FREE'' is not really ''FREE'' because you will be bound by all your sin & you know that sin 's consequence is death.
worrierofgod4ever 1 month ago
@worrierofgod4ever "You can choose whatever you wanna do!!? Can't you? Is there anyone that forces you?"
No, you can't. Think of the last time you had a meal at a restaurant. What did you pick? Now tell me why you chose that. Unless the only reason was "because I willed myself to" and your level of hunger, desire for pleasure, price of the food, played no roll in your decision, then your decision was predicated on numerous other factors other than yourself.
HonestDiscussioner 1 month ago
@worrierofgod4ever God gives us free will? That's like saying: here are 2 options, you can choose what you prefer. But don't choose option number 1, because you'll burn in hell if you do. But you are free to choose it though. Just remember I'll burn you.
Free will? Really?
robbegx 1 month ago
@robbegx You have no idea what Free is....Thats the problem. Living outside God's will and His ways is bondage. Why? Because you get trapped in sin and sin leads to death my friend.
worrierofgod4ever 1 month ago
@worrierofgod4ever I'm an ex muslim, I used to live by God's ways. Now I'm an atheist I have seen both sides and I conclude that I am more free now.
robbegx 1 month ago
Yes, you're right about rehabilitation being better than punishment/revenge. God gave us as people a responsibility to exercise compassion upon each other. The fact that we didn't get it right doesn't make God bad. The wages of sin ARE death. They have to be since God is righteous and cannot tolerate the opposite of Him which is pure goodness. Therefore, anyone who does not accept him, will be thrown with Satan and his angels to burn for their rebellion.
cj6732 5 months ago
@cj6732 "Yes, you're right about rehabilitation being better than punishment/revenge."
"Therefore, anyone who does not accept him, will be thrown with Satan and his angels to burn for their rebellion."
You don't see how these two statements conflict with each other? It's better to rehabilitate than punish, god is all good, and is all about the punishment.
Let's not forget, not everyone even gets a CHANCE to accept him.
HonestDiscussioner 5 months ago
@HonestDiscussioner You're arguing about something you don't know anything about. No offence, but you're just a guy with a camera that doesn't believe he should be held accountable for anything bad he ever did. You have not read the bible, so how can you refute it in the first place? Let alone refute claims by others that have had encounters with God...? THAT'S not logical.
cj6732 5 months ago
@cj6732 Again, you aren't addressing any of my arguments, you're merely attacking me. That is a classic logical fallacy. I have read much of the bible, I don't know where you get the idea I never touched it.
HonestDiscussioner 5 months ago
lol nicee
Blackjuicez 5 months ago
Hell is NOT the FINAL plan of God.
If we look at 1 Cor.15 we see "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" So an ETERNAL hell cannot be so furthermore the greek for endless is ATELEUTETOS yet jesus used AIONIOS.
furthermore the wicked in Matthew 25 go to "aionios kolasis" which is greek for age-enduring PUNISHMENT/PRUNING, so utter destruction cannot be so, since the wicked are NOT nuked/destroyed utterly.
Eventually ALL will be saved- PLEASE SEE 1 Cor.15:22
motibi 6 months ago
...and if you want to know the TRUTH, you need to go to Jesus. Those who followed him were witnesses to his miracles, death, resurrection and ascention through the sky. Jesus proved he was the son of God and he came here to show us (we who are blind) the TRUTH. If you reject Jesus, judgment day will be a very sad and frightening day.
rickemiranda 1 year ago
@rickemiranda I don't think he actually did those things. You are believing very innaccurate testimonies that you have no ability to confirm actually happened. Tall tales are often spoken of a person while they are alive. That is why the longer the period between the writing of the gospels and the time of Jesus's death, the more fantastic the story. John was written last, and it has Jesus in the flesh, appearing before 500 people. You are believing in whisper down the lane.
HonestDiscussioner 1 year ago
@HonestDiscussioner The first Gospel was written within 60 years after Jesus death. This is a lot closer to any other historical document. Also, the things that were witnessed were recorded by 4 disciples that confirm each other's testimony. Why do we call witnesses to the stand? Because they saw something that took place and they confirm each other's testimony.
xxskittlez123xx 1 year ago
@xxskittlez123xx "4 disciples that confirm each other's testimony"
No, we have no idea who the authors were. The church tacked the names on later, and they DON'T corroborate each others testimony. Virtually all of the details for the resurrection which was the most important event in the Theology, do not agree between gospels.
"The first Gospel was written within 60 years after Jesus death."
Which was not written by historians, but fanatical followers who OBVIOUSLY changed the story!
HonestDiscussioner 1 year ago
@HonestDiscussioner You see to put your trust in other people's findings. Scientists, theologians, etc.. and here you are arguing with people who have had genuine experiences with the Almighty. That's not logical. It's not logical for you to make your mind up about something without investigating it. God WANTS you to look into these things, coz they're vital. Problem is it's a just too inconvenient to believe in accountability when we can all just worship ourselves, which is what atheists do.
cj6732 5 months ago
@cj6732 What's illogical is that you think that your experience must be genuine, and that all of the other people who claim to have had an experience that would contradict yours must be . . well whatever it is yours must be correct. What is illogical is that I point out a flaw in your logic, and your response isn't to try and reconcile it, but to distract from it and make point unrelated to whether your original statement was consistent.
HonestDiscussioner 5 months ago
@HonestDiscussioner Not true at all, I was not trying to distract from your point. I was simply going to the root of your unbelief, which is that you haven't investigated any of these things, yet you feel the need to discuss them. I don't want you to rely on my experience, what I'm saying is that you should be seeking out your own experience before you discuss something you know nothing about. I'm not defending MY experience, I'm defending the one YOU haven't had yet.
cj6732 5 months ago
@cj6732 "Not true at all, I was not trying to distract from your point. I was simply going to the root of your unbelief, which is that you haven't investigated any of these things, yet you feel the need to discuss them."
What makes you think that I haven't investigated them. I've spent the past five years of my life investigating them.
Why don't you go look at my video "Atheist Asking for God". That is not the only time, nor the most in-depth time, I've done it.
HonestDiscussioner 5 months ago
@HonestDiscussioner Also, are you able to confirm that man was the result of a random evolutionary process? Yet you probably believe that. If your argument is that the theory can be verified then, by those standards, the historicity of Jesus can be verified all the more. You can't apply one standard to the belief in evolution if you are not willing to hold the same standard in considering the historicity of Jesus.
xxskittlez123xx 1 year ago
@xxskittlez123xx "Also, are you able to confirm that man was the result of a random evolutionary process? "
Yes. We actually have EVIDENCE, evidence that does not rely on a bunch of people who can't get their story straight. We have fossil records, DNA evidence, retroviruses, and a host of other evidence that all confirms it, but no, some guy 2,000 years ago said some other dude told him that another dude turned water into wine, and now all of this is void? Come on.
HonestDiscussioner 1 year ago
@rickemiranda Eyewitness testimony does NOT prove miracles. There was a town of thousands of people who all testified, not more than a century or two ago, that the sun literally came down from the sky and danced before there eyes. This is THOUSANDS of people, are you going to believe the sun actually came down from the sky and danced around for them, when this event was not noticed anywhere else in the world?
HonestDiscussioner 1 year ago
@rickemiranda you make the mistake (like most christians) of stating the bible as fact, when we have no way of telling whether those things happened or not, let alone whether jesus was even real.
thychaos 1 year ago
Also, please do not think that you can attain the truth by pure philosphical argumentation. You can't derive the truth using your mind no more than a fish can understand the universe in the way humans can. You find truth from the one that knows the truth. If there is a God, then he would be a being that knows all things, to include TRUTH.
rickemiranda 1 year ago
@rickemiranda " You can't derive the truth using your mind no more than a fish can understand the universe . . "
And yet, we are not judged by our actions, but our ability to know truth. If we cannot know truth, how are we expected to know that the bible is the truth? A murderer to spends his life murdering but repents at the last moment goes to heaven, but the man who is a righteous do-gooder who has a crisis of faith in his few moments goes to hell. Your philosophy contradicts your religion.
HonestDiscussioner 1 year ago
@HonestDiscussioner Please don't misunderstand me. Truth CAN be understood by the mind. Finding truth is more like the analogy of a dark room. We cannot see the things around us until they become exosed to the light. Without light, we can only IMAGINE how things are. We might bump into a cold leather couch and IMAGINE that we've bumped into something of our own imagination, that is not a couch.
xxskittlez123xx 1 year ago
@HonestDiscussioner : The only way we can know what a couch is, is if we turn on the light and see it. Truth is like the light. When you read the cover story of a news paper and it states certain factual events from a reporter, do you sit there and think, "Gees, I can't verify this really happened therefore, it must not be true!"
xxskittlez123xx 1 year ago
@HonestDiscussioner : I'm not sure if you're saying that we cannot know truth or that we can. If you're saying that we can't know truth then consider this question: When is your birthday? If you told someone your birthday after they asked you, then they looked at you and said, that's not true. How would you respond?
xxskittlez123xx 1 year ago
It's not a lack of belief in "Religion" that sends people to hell. Here's the analogy. If someone killed one of your loved ones, you demand and expect for a just judge to put the guilty murderer in jail and maybe even execution. Because if the judge does not convict a guilty criminal, the judge is not JUST. God is JUST and must separate sinners from the righteous.
rickemiranda 1 year ago
@rickemiranda "ecause if the judge does not convict a guilty criminal, the judge is not JUST. "
So if your wife is murdered, and your children, and you see the murderer laughing about his deed, then a few moments late feels sorry and his dad then goes on to sit in jail for the rest of his life to pay for his son's crime, while his son goes on to raise a family remarkably similar to the one he took from you, you would call that justice and be perfectly content?
HonestDiscussioner 1 year ago
This was 3 or 4 days before I joined.
I should go back and watch even more of your past videos!!
TheOtherSide100 2 years ago
Thanks TOS. If you'd like I have a playlist that has the better ones I've done from my older days.
The Pwnd videos from the pwnage olympics were favorites of my subscribers.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
Being stupid on purpose is evil.
Simpleandmean 2 years ago 2
Depends on the purpose. There is such a thing as cruel to be kind, and in other cases, the desire to do so stems from previous experience in a primitive attempt to cope with said experiences.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
There is always another way out, we don't need to commit crime in the name of good.
People do more evil then good. Would a judge let a killer go if he would say, oh come on judge, I only killed a few, look at the other people that I haven't killed... yet.
We wouldn't have to cope with sad experiences if we wouldn't caused it.
Simpleandmean 2 years ago 2
Why wouldn't a judge do let that person go? What is the reason? Simple: so they won't do it again.
This anaology doesn't follow in the cosmic sense, had those that you believe go to heaven still live they'd still commit crimes, just like those you believe go to hell. Eternal punishment for a finite crime, it does not follow what we know to be superior forms of justice and punishment today that show OT and even NT punishment was immoral and childish.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
Ur logic shocks me it's like we live in two completely different worlds. Ur observation of this world is really different I would say that it is really poor
Criminal that was not punished for his crimes only becomes more evil. When they know that they r not going to get in trouble no meter what they do, than they start making crimes without holding back.
Yes, I know that I commit horrible crimes in Gods eyes, but Jesus payed for my sins & I will do anything He desires in order to pay Him back.
Simpleandmean 2 years ago
"Criminal that was not punished for his crimes only becomes more evil."
Exactly right. THAT is why punishment exists, to correct behavior. No behavior is corrected in hell, it is not punishment, it is vengence.
What makes us who we are? What makes us sinful? That two people made one mistake? That's why we're so evil?
We were never given the choice of having a sinful nature, we were born with it. We are born sick and commanded to get better.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
Not exactly, when we execute a criminal we don't do it in order for him to become better, if we execute him, he doesn't have a chance to become better. Not all punishments exist to correct behavior, some exist for an example, so others would not repeat their behavior.
We were never given a choice? You have it right now, if you don't take advantage of this choice right now, then don't blame anyone for your mistakes.
Simpleandmean 2 years ago 2
I don't have the choice to not have a sinful nature. To sin, perhaps, but not to choose their nature. We are born sick and commanded to get better, born with a burden not of our own doing and yet still our responsibility to correct
And I don't believe in the death penalty. That isn't punishment, its retribution. Studies show that the death penalty does not decrease the chance of the crime being committed, so you can argue it is for an example, but it is ineffective. Again, science pwns "God".
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
Well u also didn't choose ur IQ. U didn't choose how smart u r doing to be born, but u chose to become smarter, if u were able to choose that, than why can't you choose to become Holy? I was born weak & fragile, but I chose to become stronger by going to the gym. Blaming ur responsibility is foolish. We were born with a lot of burdens, but why do u whine only about this burden, get over urself
If scientist don't have God's wisdom, than they can pwn as much as they want, they wouldnt get anywere
Simpleandmean 2 years ago
Scientists dont' pwn God so much as "reality" does.
I'm not arguing that God is immoral or evil, I'm arguing that the character portrayed in the Bible is evil, immoral, and most damning of all, a bit primitive, almost stupid . . therefore that isn't God.
Because many of the things he advocates can be shown to be primitive and idiotic and we've come up with far better solutions on our own.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
God of the Bible is not immoral or evil ect... God of the Bible is someone too complax for you to understand, He is God ofter all. ; )
Simpleandmean 2 years ago
We can in fact define what morality is. If we can show that what the Biblical god mandates or how he behaves is contradictory to what morality is, then the Biblical god isn't god. Maybe there another out there, but we can show through study and logic that Yahwey and even Jesus are not moral creatures. Much of the time they aren't even smart. You can point to as many good things as you'd like, but if I can point to one bad or stupid thing (and I can point to many) then that disproves Yahwey.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
One cannot choose to become smarter, but only more knowledgable. Intelligence is usually fixed once you reach a certain age
I don't think we have a burden of a "sinful nature", I'm arguing that it doesn't make sense that we are responsible for fixing something we didn't break, at the cost of eternity.
As well, many people died without ever HEARING of Jesus, so no matter what, they go to hell.Our inner strength is something in our nature as well, its inescapable with an omniscient being.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
Wow, I admire your faith in your self-made religion!
Some people become stupider when they get older because they don't care about knowledge. I don't know how you can make such false assumptions.
I would say that fixing problems is a lot of fun. Games without problems or story are just so boring. Mexico and Rome use to triad until Catholics stopped the trading, so natives knew all about Jesus, they were just ignorant idolaters.
Simpleandmean 2 years ago
I am not saying fixing something or solving a problem is a bad thing, or something we shouldn't be asked of to try.
I'm saying it isn't fair condemn a person for being unable to fix something that wasn't their fault.
Someone breaks your lamp and I come in and say fix it, and if you don't I'll kill you, that is not fair, for it wasn't the person's fault the lamp broke in the first place, nor is failing to solve a problem despite one's best efforts worthy of punishment.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
There something You don't get.
That these people are not even trying to get fix it.
Simpleandmean 2 years ago
And why don't they? Because they don't know they need to get it fixed! No one told them they were born a sinner or any other Christian doctrine.
That's something you don't seem to get. God never let them know anything was wrong . . . so maybe its not that important after all! Maybe he's not actually there, the Biblical god.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
Well people around them always tell them that they need to fix their behavior, wifes tell that to their husbands & what to they do? They tell them to shut up! Then they don't know why their wife wants to divorce them!
All people on earth know that they need to be good persons, but the question is, do they try?
I did & success
Most people know about Jesus Death, but do they care? Don't think so. So that is were people like me come in and worn them about their nature, than the rest is up to them.
Simpleandmean 2 years ago
Your measure of being a good person seems to be whether or not you believe a supernatural occurance happened over 2,000 years ago.
Also we're not talking about those that have heard the Jesus story, we're talking about the ones that never did, and I notice you bring no real evidence that they did in fact know of Jesus and his teachings, and that he died on a cross and was resurrected.
Stop saying you are right and show WHY what you say is true, WHY you think the Jesus story happened.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
You also did not respond to my point about those who die without even hearing of Jesus, like say the Native Americans.
1400 years with no chance of knowing about Jesus, which meant hundreds of generations all going to hell without being given a chance.
Now not only has someone broke your lamp, not only is someone threatening to kill you if you fail to fix it, but you have no way of knowing it is broken and you're not aware of the danger of the threat.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
I believe I did, but I will try a different approach now
Native Americans have heard of Jesus long time ago, when Rome was still trading with Natives, America was long discovered before Columbus, he was not the first man to walk on American land. The trading of knowledge and resources stopped, Don't remember why but I remember that it was Catholics doing
So I believe that Natives were well aware of Christianity, but those people liked bringing as sacrifices to the sun, more than Christianity.
Simpleandmean 2 years ago
I would like to see your evidence for any of that. The earliest contact with the Americas by the Eastern continents were Vikings and weren't bringing Christianity.
Romans didn't have ships that could cross the ocean, and if they did the New World wouldn't have been a surprise.
There is no evidence in archeology from oral tradition that talks about Jesus in any way.
Even if someone long ago did tell a few of them, it obviously did not reach many ears, as there would be evidence of such.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
The only reason we would commit this "sin" you speak of would be because of the nature we did not choose to begin with. God might as well command us to cross a finish line in a given time period, but break our legs first and then blame us for not being fast enough.
An entity that understands punishment does not punish eternally, nor do they punish out of anything but a desire to help the person become better. Hell does neither of these things, once there it is useless suffering.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
Why do you keep on going back to the past?
Stop dwelling on the past and start looking for a better future.
(The example Im about to use is just an example)
I didnt choose my parents either, but I still have them. It wouldnt be wise to blame God for the existence of my parents. If I dont like my parents all I have to do is become a lot better than them.
If you dont like your sinful nature, than become better than it. Whoever said that you dont have a chance Jesus is your only chance!
Simpleandmean 2 years ago 2
Yes, if God exists he is to blame for my parents, for better or worse. He made my soul, made my environment, made the laws of physics which governs all motion, is omniscient, and somehow everything about me is my fault?
Doesn't work like that. A perfect being cannot make a flawed creation, especially not by accident.
Funny, since Jesus did nothing to notify the Native American's for over a millenium. They had no chance.
It's not that I don't "like" it, its that I didn't choose my nature
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
If people despise God, He would let them dwell on their foolishness. God didn't made ur environment, ur parents did.
There is a big difference between us, I blame my mistakes always on myself & u always look for a scapegoat. I would consider that to be very foolish.
Jesus didn't notify people that were before Him either, but somehow they knew Him.
"its that I didn't choose my nature"
Why do you always say this it makes u sound so weak & pathetic. Who cares about ur past, u have a choice Now!
Simpleandmean 2 years ago
No I don't believe I have a choice.
First off, I'm not "looking for a scapegoat". I flatly say this "scapegoat" doesn't exist.
However I am a determinist, especially in relation to the premise of an omniscient being is concerned.
So God didn't make my environment? Who made theirs? Their parents? Well who made theirs?
Even if God turned a blind eye since creation, the way he set up creation, the way he designed humans, he determined everything that would happen. There is no choice.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
You don't believe that you have a choice? That's called self-made religion. (Colossians 2:23)
Jesus has told you that you have choice and you put your hands over your ears and said I don't want to hear it, I don't want to hear it!!!
Yes, yes just blame God for your stubborn foolishness.
I can see that you have studied doctrines, but you have no knowledge of what Scripture says.
U don't know who is elect and who is not, but u r giving up on yourself. It is foolish to assume that ur not elect.
Simpleandmean 2 years ago
I don't think there is such thing as elect, I don't blame God for anything because I don't think he exists. I'm pointing out the flaws in your belief.
If God exists then he created everything there is about us and our world. There is no choice, for anything he does he knows the outcome. He can make anyone do anything without directly affecting them but manipulating thier surroundings. In fact, ANYTHING he does would have far reaching implactions. He controls everything with anything he does.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
He might know the outcome, but you don't so stop assuming what is impossible to know.
If God is manipulating than why doesn't He get rid of everyone who opposes Him?
My be because He doesn't manipulate.
Simpleandmean 2 years ago
Sorry, I've been busy.
Anyway.
Maybe it's because the Biblical god doesn't exist.
The problem is that anything he does, including communicating with his followers, would be a manipulation. He would know the way he communicates will determine their actions, and thusly anything affected by those actions.
Take into consideration both possibilities, that the Biblical God exists or doesn't, and show why one is better than the other. Don't base your conclusion on the premise.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
No need for an apology, I have an ability to understand people.
Or maybe it is because God so LOVED the world that He gave His own son.
People try to manipulate that way too, but they fail because of their low knowledge. You would probably manipulate people too if you knew them well.
I already have considered both sides & my conclusion is that The God of The Bible is the most reasonable God there is.
Muslim god tells to kill children that don't believe in their god, that is unreasonable 4 me.
Simpleandmean 2 years ago
"Muslim god tells to kill children that don't believe in their god, that is unreasonable 4 me"
Oh you mean like Yahwey did? You know . . . the guy who was technically Jesus? Like in Eziekal "Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children" or in 1 Sam 15 "Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants" or in Deuteronomy 20? Your god doesn't seem to have a problem with ordering people to kill babies because they belong to unbelievers.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
I knew u r going to bring this up, it is only logical for u to do so. Have u noticed that they were ordered to kill their enemies not their own children?
Before u judge them, have u understood in what position they were in?
Think critically: If u would conquer someones land & leave some pple alive what would happen if few years, another war perhaps. Plus those people were too perverted so they wouldnt make good slaves either. They needed to clean the land around them in order to live in peace
Simpleandmean 2 years ago
By killing babies . . . and livestock.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
Have you read about Sodom? Well the people that the Hebrews had to annihilate were similar to Sodom. Now Sodom was Seriously screwed up. Even the children there, were homosexuals! Sodom was heaven for child molesters.
Those people went over the limit, so that was there consequence.
You don't need to respond anymore Because I am tired of responding to bunch of people for no reason.
So I would say this is good bye.
Simpleandmean 2 years ago
Yes, I know what you said, and I immediately warned you that I don't see a reason in debating so you wouldn't try to debate me.
Well, I never said that we are illogical I just said that if we will start to argue on one useless think and never come to a same conclusion, than we have different logics and it would be foolish for us to continue to argue.
Simpleandmean 2 years ago 2
I don't think there is anything "useless" we are discussing here. It is in fact of great importance.
As well this is currently a discussion and not a debate, though we could be debating the difference between discussion and debate. The original topic is still a discussion.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
And what is the point of us discussing whether we should or shouldn't believe in hell. Does hell causes us any damaged?
When you are explaining why you don't believe in hell, try to show us not just one sided of the argument.
When religious people argue about a doctrine and never come to a final conclusion, I see how pointless that discussion was.
Simpleandmean 2 years ago 2
I'm confused as to what you mean. They all (at least the majority, which is all we can expect) accept hell. I do not, because the the idea of it is based in a childish understanding of punishment not indicative of the characteristics of the God they claim mandates this policy.
Eternal punishment helps nothing. Nothing is learned, which is why we punish.
Now we are actually getting to the meat of this video.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
Now I will tell you the truth that might make you hate God.
The purpose of hell is to serve justice and to glorify the almighty God.
Simpleandmean 2 years ago
I don't hate that which does not exist.
There is no justice in hell. Given that who we are and what we become is based heavily on how we were created and where we were created, to blame us for what we become is not indicative of an omniscient loving creator that knows everything about us.
Nor does it glorfy God. It is nothing short of infinite waste. That I don't accept that a supernatural event I was not witness to didn't happen does not speak to my character or my actions here on earth.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
God doesn't make us evil. We become evil ourselves.
To every problem there is a solution and if we don't take advantage of the solutions, than we get what we deserve.
Simpleandmean 2 years ago 2
There's a bottle marked "Poison" that has the antidote to the poison you didn't know\believe you had.
Is it your fault you died because you didn't drink the bottle marked "poison"?
No atheist that I know of recognizes God as the solution to life and still tells God to fuck off. Some claim they would, but none actually BELIEVE this is a viable option.
Rejecting what you KNOW to be a solution is one thing. Not recoginzing it is like getting 10+5 wrong, you're stupid, not evil.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
Plus, you are still saying our actions, our misguided actions that have a million reasons behind them that have nothing to do with us, are soley and 100% our fault.
NOTHING is ever one person's fault, and yet this being which should well understand this concept is so quick to condemn someone for eternity for not being capable of doing something that they were created without the ability to do.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
Everything is always our fault. How can you be a man and say such foolishness "it isn't our fault, it's not my fault, if you did something wrong the burden of the responsibility is upon your head."
" this being which should well understand this concept is so quick to condemn someone for eternity for not being capable of doing something that they were created without the ability to do."
That is the reason were Jesus comes for, to fix our impossible to solve problem.
Simpleandmean 2 years ago 2
The more I listen to this video the less sense it makes. You combine things that don't belong together, if I would start picking on every word of yours you would have a lot of annoying questions.
Simpleandmean 2 years ago
Perhaps an example? No one else seems to have that issue, and it's very difficult to annoy me with questions, especially when I enjoy constructive criticism. Fire away.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
What does anyone else have to do with me? The history has proven us that sometime the majority of people can be wrong.
I am just saying that it is difficult for me to believe that if there is no hell there might be a heaven, it's just so illogical for me.
"No one else seems to have that issue"
It is the same as going to a religious website and saying that you disagree with them and than they reply-Perhaps an example? No one else seems to have that issue. I don't see logic in that.
Simpleandmean 2 years ago
Factually wrong yes, but if no one had a difficult time understanding something and you did that would seem to imply nothing wrong on my end.
The idea that this is just an experience and afterwards the afterlife is simply rejoining God and he doesn't allow eternal torture I think is a possibility. I go into this in detail on my "One Way God Could Exist" video.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
Oh, I understand you Sir. and I also understand what you are doing. I know that you make logical mistakes in your commenting on Hell. If no one else sees it than it is not my problem. I'm just showing the other side to your opinion.
What you have done is called self-made religion and trust me Sir when I am saying this we have enough of those.
Simpleandmean 2 years ago
What logical mistakes. Be specific. You originally said "your video doesn't make any sense". "I don't understand what you are trying to say" is different from "you are wrong", and it appeared as though you took for former position. If you indeed take the latter, then point SPECIFICALLY to what logical error I made and don't just state I made one.
Also, I am not advocating there is a heaven and no hell. I just know there is no "religious hell" Maybe there is no heaven too. I have no religion.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
Ur logical error is not only one there r many, & I don't want to write u an essay on everythin u said wrong. I don't want to have a big argument with people that don't care about what I think, there r people that ask questions & never care about my answer, I am so tired of them.
I just know there's no "religious hell" Maybe there's no heaven too.
This is one of your logical errors. If the is no hell than there is no heaven either There is no maybe. It's illogical to believe only in good things
Simpleandmean 2 years ago 2
"It's illogical to believe only in good things."
I believe you don't really understand my position and are looking at it from a narrow(but normal) perspective.
If you look at evil in the world in its proper context, more times than not it serves some sort of good purpose.
It makes us stronger, it helps us learn, it tests us, it pushes us, it gives us the conflict we need to become better people.
Looking at it in that context, the need for eternal punishment vanishes.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
I don't really like evil at all.
The only things evil shows me is how not to behave or act.
When in Russia a school was in a captive, did it ever made their people stronger or help them learn, did it pushed them, did that conflict made them better people.
No it didn't, when Russians caught one of the bombers they shredded him top peaces, with there own hands no knives only hands.
Russians became unsecure, depressed, mad, suspicious & racist.
It is unreasonable for evil to exist, its wrong
Simpleandmean 2 years ago 2
I feel as though while evil indeed sucks, without it, we'd never get anywhere of importance.
I don't like the idea . . . I wish everything was paradise . . . but at the same time I recognize its unfortunate importance in our world . . . and rightfully fight against it.
"he only things evil shows me is how not to behave or act."
Well that's one thing then, isn't it?
Evil also brings charity, and brings people together. It can also destroy lives like you say, but without it, what would we be?
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
Well, when I use to think about why evil exists I use to come up with a similar conclusion to yours, but now I see that evil is caused by us and Evil is never good and good is never evil, just as love is never hate and hate is never love, even thou love and hate is separated by a very thin wall they are still will never become one. You are a reasonable guy it is easy for you to understand this, right.
"but without it, what would we be?"
Without it we would be a very good angels, duh! ; )
Simpleandmean 2 years ago 2
And what are angels then? Can we appreciate the good times when we don't have the bad times to compare it to?
Ever read Shakespear? Romeo and Juliet? I"m assuming you at least passed though it in grade school or at the very least are familar with it as a story.
The preacher in that story declares, quite aptly, that nothing is 100% good or 100% evil. It is always a mix of some sort, thought rarely is it in equal porportions. Even poison gets rid of rats, and even roses have thorns.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
Me saying that we would be a very good angels, was suppose to be a bit of a joke. When I said that I meant that people would be very good, & not harmful
Yes that guy is right nothing is 100% good or 100% evil, that is from mens point of a view, we mix good & bad all the time because of our misunderstanding & poor judgment
But God has this limitations & red lines that we shouldnt cross & it's for own good. So there is a such a thing as 100% good or 100% evil. When we mix them it becomes just evil
Simpleandmean 2 years ago 2
Okay, now I'm confused, First you say he's right, nothing is 100% good\evil, then you say when it isn't 100% good or evil then its just evil.
"For our own good". What good are you describing? Good for the soul or good for life Is it bad because is screws someone over or taints our soul?
If it's the former then eternal punishment pointless. When we punish a child it isn't to get revenge or prove a point, it is so they won't do it again, unlike hell, which is nothing but childish vengence.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
He is right from his own point of a view not from God's.
I said when we mix good and evil together the only result we get is evil.
Good is something that follows obeys and respects God's law.
Evil is something that opposes God's law.
What does punishing children has to do with Hell? Hell is for the criminals, not for the children of God.
Simpleandmean 2 years ago 2
If God exists, we are all his children.
If good is only that which follows God's laws then you are arguing might makes right, in which the reason for morality moves from higher good to nothing more than a pet peeve of the guy with the gun.
If we can show what we believe are God's laws are in fact immoral and not beneficial to humans in any way, then we can show that indeed, they are not God's laws.
Stealing food requires stealing, but lets your kids survive. It is both good and bad.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
No, not all people are God's children if you were a former christian you should have known this. (Hint: read The Bible, not the doctrines)
You are mixing good and evil again.
You don't have to steel food you can just ask for it and God will provide. So only fools would ignore such a kind offer.
Simpleandmean 2 years ago 2
"there r people that ask questions & never care about my answer, I am so tired of them."
I am, if anything, NOT one of those people.
Check my name, I take my name VERY seriously. My purpose here is for honest discussion and debate.
That does not mean I will agree with you, but given I've asked you opinion twice already I think it would be safe to conclude I actually want to know what you have to say.
The majoirty of my subs agree with me, I need more detractors to balance it out.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
First of all, I don't see a reason in debates. I don't have any followers, nor do I want them.
LOGOS- is the word of God, which we get our word logical. Men have corrupted their logic, there are two different logics that contradict each other, and how can people with these logics find themselves coming to the same conclusion? They are obviously going to contradict each other for ever & ever.
Both of us need a same stander rules for logic in order for us to have a reasonable conversation.
Simpleandmean 2 years ago 2
I can only say the things that don't make sense to me, & u can give another explanation why u think u r right, but this can go on for ever & I don't want any of that.
I can right u everything that I know that it doesn't fit together in ur video & send it on ur privet messages, but u must understand that I don't want any of long term unreasonable conversations. If u don't believe me, than don't believe me, I'm going to give u a simple explanation, if u can't get it than it is not my problem. ok?
Simpleandmean 2 years ago 2
I said "discussion" and debates. Debates are not always in the classical public format, but also an amiable discussion to see whose point holds the most validity, and is important in understanding intellectual concepts.
I've had many decent conversations without the need for formal declaration of logical rules.
Perhaps you don't realize it but for me it appears we've been having one for a little bit here.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
Do you have an opinion on annihlationism? In a nutshell its the belief that the when the unrepentent die they stay dead, pretty much the same belief as a scientfitic naturalist. But the the repentent (saved of whatever other terminology you want to use to say "christian") spend eternity in heaven.
plindy101 2 years ago
While that would at least not be "childish" on god's part and would actually seem plausible and almost reasonable, there are other issues that get in the way.
Firstly, the idea that God's creations could be imperfect, even through choice. The idea that sin enters the world even though God forms us in the womb. How we all got this sin not of our own choosing, we are still being blamed for something not our fault.
Without the sin we didn't choose to accept, we'd all get to heaven.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
Are you familiar with the line of apologetics that say the unquenchable fire is one that cannot be doused until it has completely consumed & the eternal death is one from which no resurrection can occur?
This take on the final judgment is what prevented me from running for the doors as soon as I had the capacity to understand the concept of hell.
Truth be told, hell was never a factor in my walk out of the faith at age 28.
That said, eternal torment doctrine, I'd have left sooner. ;)
LasraelLarson 2 years ago
It's almost as though they're using scare tactics soley for the purpose of keeping people in check. Naaah, that can't be it.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
The irony, in Daniel 3, that tactic didn't work for King Nebuchadnezzar, yet somehow a large majority of Christians seem to think it is perfectly fine.
I doubt they have contemplated it at any great length, but rather dismissed the uncomfortable.
How is this lake of sacred fire going to burn & not consume & still cause great torment, eternally?
God is going to have to simultaneously make the fire heal as it burns at fluctuating rates, so that torment is experienced, lest the fire not cause harm.
LasraelLarson 2 years ago
A punishment that lasts all eternity is the most ridiculous of notions.
Regarding the lesson about a child touching a hot stove. What parent then proceeds to throw that child out of the house for disobedience? Generally that is when the comforting aspect of a loving parent comes into play.
The God of Eden is anything but.
Not only did he let the child get burned, he put a tempter right in the epicenter to contradict the message of, "The burner is hot."
The God of the Bible is a Fucktard!
LasraelLarson 2 years ago
Even if the Eden tale is just an allegory of mans decent into flesh, one still must do bizarre feats of mental contortionism to dismiss all the ridiculous elements of this story.
It is incredible to free the mind from this utter nonsense.
FYI: it was the tale of Abraham & Isaac that I could never fully apologize away.
LasraelLarson 2 years ago
Well you can feel pain without any physical damage. We wouldn't be a physical body but just a consciousness conscious of only suffering and pain.
Still pretty rediculous, but at least God doesn't have to keep healing.
Yes, Christians like to turn everything around on us and, God didn't tempt us, Satan did and we're just so terrible and want to be tempted to badly he had to let Satan do it, so it's all our fault.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
Into the valley of death rode the brave 300
The brave and stupid 300...
Brandt761 2 years ago
I refuse to wear skimpy leather and a red cape for you...
happysplodie 2 years ago
I think I'll find some way to live with that. How about we just fight tyranny and mysticism?
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
Even if free will exists, punishment for the sake of punishment helps nothing but satiate a childish and fragile emotional state. Doesn't sound like someone who would also be a supreme being.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
At twenty, although I was having doubts, I still considered myself a Christian. I don't remember exactly when I realized first that Jesus was just a man, and then finally that Jesus may not have existed at all in any more real sense than Robin Hood. Most "legendary" characters have at least some basis in reality. But that basis is usually an elaborate synthesis of multiple characters which satisfies some current need. Truth has little to do with it.
Largo64 2 years ago
True. A Hell centered theology is quite repulsive.
gambleor 2 years ago
Is you(r) god someone at the intellectual and emotional (level) of a two year old?
The parts in parenthesis are missing from your description.
smpunditz 2 years ago
Thanks, fixed.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
300! grats HD
tomtomhungry 2 years ago
RAAAGHHHH!
anthonzi 2 years ago
Whoa . . whoa. . . chill . . talking about hell is scary! You don't want to startle us.
☺☺ ☺ ☺
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
The fear of hell is what kept me in it as well. Great points!
pixelatedxdeath 2 years ago
Do you remember the moment you realized it didn't exist? If so I'd like to hear about it.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
Lol nice Intro. Very nice video. Hell is the ultimate coverting protector for most people. Christians are so flooded with the threat of hell when they are young they believe it. Like Santa Claus kind of. Or any other lie you tell them when they are little. It becomes engrained in their minds.
Nothiean 2 years ago
Good points. If you love your child then I bet there's no way you'd lock them in the basement and torture them for a day, let alone eternity, no matter how bad they've been. God would, and he's supposed to be all loving. I wonder how Christians don't see the massive contradiction there.
dave28lax 2 years ago
It's also interesting how Christians interpret how you get to be sent to hell. In the UK most Christians believe good people get into heaven, no matter whether they believe - so us atheists are OK if we're decent people. Seems to be a very American thing that you have to accept Jesus.
dave28lax 2 years ago
And congrats, you definitely deserve more than 300 subs - but I like the smaller channels, on the bigger ones any comments just get lost in the noise.
dave28lax 2 years ago
Yea, creationism too.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
lmao at intro, that was awesome lol lol
Lets keep in mind that the stove can also teach your child everything they need to know if you let them touch it.
UNFFwildcard 2 years ago
Quite true sir, on both points. I think the best lesson is to warn you children and then let them go through with it so they realize they should have listened.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
I can't believe you only have about 300 subs. Judging by your videos I would say you deserve a lot more. Anyway, great video as usual.
chiefindomer 2 years ago
Well I'm a bit new . . and I forget to post my videos as responses, but thanks for the compliment.
HonestDiscussioner 2 years ago
Congrats.
aaronk1994 2 years ago
Congratulations on your 300th subscriber...great movie too. Valid points also.
Peace.
someperson0529 2 years ago