I like how everyone is being an idiot and says "omg this guy cheesed mondragon out! fuck him!"
If a Zerg ever goes Hatch first, they DESERVE to lose like this. Cruncher fully expected Mondragon to go pool first, and drop a Cannon at home when his Pool finishes as well as drop a Nexus. But he saw a Hatch first and dropped a Cannon at Mondragon's base instead. You go pool first specifically to deal with this early Protoss aggression.
With the hatch being a production building, I wouldn't necessarily say that hatch first is all that greedy. yes 15-16 hatch is greedy, but 13 hatch 15pool is generally pretty conservative.
Overall, the build isn't the problem.
This game shows that Mondragon makes a couple large missteps, first by leaving the probe alone instead of killing it.
Just like day9 states, he overreacts twice with his workers. And a lack of pressure on the Toss base just seals the deal.
fun fact - cannons can not actually hit a hatchery with 100% creep spread (ie Mondragons first base is completely safe). no idea why Mondragon didn't cancel the hatchery at around 90-95% then just to a ling run by to Crunchers base...
American piece of shit, can't win through skill so has to cannon rush. NaNiwa was right saying American's ain't as good as they think they are at SC2.
@eminentjonfrost its his fault for going hatch first. Learn the fucking game first copper noob. Youre probably raging cuz you got cannon rushed yourself. Fuck off
@OmnipotentO So something like a cannon rush that rarely happens in pro tournaments means that SC2 has more 'random' factor than Street Fighter, a game which you used to complain had too much of this factor? That implies that this randomness consistently occurred in Street Fighter while it doesn't happen in SC2 on a consistent basis. Sure, in ANY game the less skilled player can win just like SC2, but in general the top players will consistently place better in leagues and tournaments in SC2.
if you destroy anything with your harvesters then rather the probe to prevent him building more cannons. But still cannons can not move and only attack things in that range so if you put down spine crawlers or bunkers he will no be able to ecxpand anymore
@mustarsic "you can win a game with buildings and you mock my race. hardly makes sense" That's what IdrA said to CombatEx after Combat cannon rushed him. IdrA left the game before the first cannon even came up. Classic IdrA for you.
Not imbalanced. Huk did the same against Losira in GSL Code A and Losira just canceled his hatchery at the last second and let HuK waste 500+ minerals on cannons. Losira then just pushed HuK's main with 1 base Roach.
Why is cannon rushing considered a noob move? It's only noob when it's the only way you can win, but Cruncher has proved that he is more than capable of winning a "standard" game.
What's noob is losing to a cannon rush. Mondragon pulled all his drones to try and get to the cannon, which was impossible. He should have killed the freaking probe, by the time another one rocked up he could have had spines.
@drtisk Agreed. Although I wouldn't call Mondragon a noob. Pulling all those drones was a terrible reaction in hind sight, but its tough to make the right call in high pressure situations.
@Killstreakification i get 6 pooled more often than i get cannon rushed on ladder (diamond)...does that mean zergs are faggot cheeser too? like, all of them?
@LordGilgamesh01 The guys playing for thousands of dollars and he was setting himself up for an expansion.... Every zerg knows this can happen, and how come no one calls cheese on Marine King when he proxies two barracks every other game... Its a strategy game and cannons are apart of the game
Players like cruncher makes a mockery out of SC2 as an E-sport, it takes out any credibility this game might have as a pro-game. The only responsables for this travesty of balance are Blizzard developers who are so "passively" making changes, yet the game is borderline a joke as a competitive game. Besides Cruncher being a medicro master leaguer scrub making it into pro tournaments thanks to abusing such a broken race is the fact that zerg remains a fucking joke at pro-level.
@EdwardManeikis As that might be true, but imagine almost every pro game would be like this, would you keep on watching? Pure excitement eh? ^^ Sorry but I can understand why Idra rage quits when this happens. This is simply moronic. Bronze, Silver mybe Gold okay, but any other league this sort of play is crappy IMHO
What's wrong with you people? It was a great tactic, it was not an all-in at all. Sometimes zerg pro players do 6-pool, so what? Or terran players try to bunker rush, so what? It's all about exploting the potential opponents mistakes, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Deal with it or don't watch/play SC2.
omfg i am really impressed of cruncher... this sucker really did something else instead of rays and colls... wtf seriously! he knows a lot of builds but he ALWAYS go against Z rays+colls!!! let's see if he does this in the next game... cruncher wins a lot against Z but i really think he sucks as a player...
You could say the same thing about Idra usually doing macro games as Z. Or Goody always (up until 1 game recently) doing mech. Same tactics. Doesn't mean they suck. Infact, cruncher usually does other things.
@captainoptimusprime A win is a win; a "stylish/solid" win and "cheesy" win have no difference, both are +1 in your win column. A "solid" Zerg would scout early and counter appropriately, as day9 and husky mentioned, which we did not see in that video.
@TheStrokesofSC he did it in a great spot vs a top level zerg, i would like to see any bronzie pull that off. As Day9 pointed out he overreacted instead of lettin the cannons sit there and do nothing. Also, he was gonna wall off his expo with the forge, but instead he punished the early expo which was a smart move.
guys need to calm down and stop calling CrunCher a noob. lets think about this match for a moment. he just cannon rushed a PRO zerg, on tal'darim altar. do you know how much skill that takes? i say props to CrunCher for being able to win this match.
@fuccons How so? He bested Idra with 2 macro games and also (as of this game), bested Mondragon with a macro game at Shakuras. He punished Mondragon as Mondragon was getting greedy. There's a difference between being a cheesy player and someone who understands the utility of cheese and uses it well. Cruncher looks to be the latter. Also, he just cannon rushed Mondragon successfully. That has to count for something. He might not win because of people like MC, but that's a different story.
although i really really hate cheesy fucking protoss.... this loss was all on the zerg... its is NEVER EVER safe to FE before pool against protoss... a 14pool into expo can hold off 2gate proxy and cannon rushes fairly easy. Mondragon got caught meta gaming but at the same time toss didnt even scout for the late pool and just herp derp CC EECCCC
I love that he won this way, if for nothing else than to listen to people cry about it. Anything that can be done in SC2 is a valid strat. Cheese is word created by raged filled cry babies who couldn't react to a valid, and risky strat. Get over yourself.
Agreed. Cannon rush is a legit tactic and is not that difficult to counter. Just don't noob panic in response. Not saying Mondragon is a noob, he's a great player and I have a zerg bias so usually always root for the zerg player, but what we all witnessed was clearly the textbook definition of panic.
Its all withing the rules of the game. A win is a win. Anyway this had nothing to do with toss being op, just mondragon losing his head a bit and getting taken by surprise.
You know, for StarCraft being such an intelligent game, there's sure a lot of dumb people watching and playing it. CrunCher didn't cheese, he was going for a Forge FE and saw the opportunity to cannon rush. And he took it. Had it failed, he still could have transitioned out of it. Protoss is not a better race, it just lends itself to these kinds of strategies more.
@xs2dan Buddy, making that much cannons and pylons that early is an all in. You could clearly see it was a planned cheese. He continued making the cannons even after mondragon saw it. If he transitioned out of a failed cannon rush, he would be severly behind. Cruncher flipped a coin and won, congrats to him. But don't call other people stupid when you make stupid comments like this
@aj7774 Well, you can call it an all in, I call it brilliant decision-making: hiding the pylon under the tree, so it doesn't get spotted, building the cannon and walling it in with pylons, increasing the chance of it not failing. Look at his money in the replay, it's all the way up to 350 when the first pylon finishes unmolested. Had Mondi spotted it and sent workers to kill it, he could've easily built the Nexus instead of the cannon and pylon wall-in.
@xs2dan This cannon rush was completely planned. The specific spot he chose to put the pylon and execute this rush is not due to decision making but something he planned to do before hand. Mondragon simply overreacted with his drones and cruncher got lucky with his cannon rush. Mondragon simply needed to make some spine crawlers in the natural and main and that would have easily shut down the cannon rush. That was a risky play by cruncher and he got lucky which is why we call it cheesy.
@aj7774 Oh, I'm not saying it wasn't planned: The Forge FE into cannon-rush is not an uncommon stretegy for Protoss. If the rush gets spotted early, you can go back to your FE strat. If it doesn't, you can try the cannon-rush. Had he built the Forge in his main with no back-up plan, then yes, I would definitely call that cheese, too. This is simply a calculated risk: If it works, great! If it doesn't, I'm behind but not out of the game.
I facepalmed HARD when I saw him go after the pylon wall protecting the cannon that was in range to kill _nothing_ rather than just killing the probe. I hate cheese but people not knowing the proper way to respond is exactly the reason people keep using it.
pathetic....i agree with previous poster. mondragon is such a better player than cruncher, but cruncher has better race. winning a series because of a cannon rush......pathetic.
@pliskin100 Hmmm...so how many openers do toss actually have against zerg that is econ focused. Lets see, 3gate expo, FFE...hmm not much else that seems great when transitioning huh. I know cannon rushing isnt exactly econ focused but it does transition into expanding.
@SeeJay710 There are hundreds of viable builds for protoss, the problem is, is that cruncher pickes the easiest one and does it every time. I've never seen boxer do the same build in a set of games before. Want to know why? Becasue he's good enough to not need to make a fucking fast stargate every game like cruncher does. He's a sub par protoss scrub who doesn't earn his wins.
@pliskin100 too true. he's riding the protoss coat tails. he reminds me of a beta protoss player with the mass void ray play every single game. jeez why do people like this guy
@MariosGuy Exactly. There's a guy called CombatEx who is in grandmasters from just cannon rushing. He lost to ROOTDrewbie's zerg,protoss and terran. He's horrible and is being carried by his race. If you look for Destiny's channel theres a game where him and destiny swap races and Destiny just fucking dominates him with 3 stalkers.
@pliskin100 hahahaha actually i was watching Spanishiwa's stream as he was doing the funday monday and he faced combatex xDD it was so funny because Day9 was in the skype call with Spanishiwa and combatex was just dissing them both so hard.
If a fast stargate is such an imba build, why doesn't everybody do it? It's his style. A lot of pro players play a certain style for long periods of time. It's like day9 said one time:" if you are ok at doing 5 builds, you are on ok player, but if you can do 1 build great, you are a great player".
@rade1809 Everybody DOES do it. Do you even watch pro tournements? Incontrol did it 5 times in a fucking row. In one game incontrol cannon rushed to fast stargate to DT rush. Only with protoss could he cheese 3 times before the 10 minute mark.
If someone else is doing it, it doesn't mean he can't do it as well and use that style if it fits him. I saw 3 players use this build consistently and make them work: cruncher, incontrol and hasuobs. Other players may use it from time to time but saying that everybody does this build is severely exaggarating. And fast stargate is not a cheese, it's a legit build. I really don't understand why everyone is calling it cheese.
@rade1809 First off, Cruncher and Incontrol are amatuers. Second, fast stargate isn't cheese. It's just that as a zerg it's impossible to scout unless I waste 100 min. The problem is that you can't scout and then start to build queens fast enough. You have to start defending for it BEFORE you scout it. How is that balanced at all? Guys like JulyZerg and Fruitdealer just do builds to defend against fast SG every game, becasue they have to.
What's wrong with building more queens? You can hear day9 say often that zergs need to build more queens as they provide defence, free up larva for drones, and you can get crazy creep spread and also transfuse if you're in a pinch.
So if it's not cheese, why is everybody hating on this guy for doing a standard opening. It's like hating a zerg for going a fast hatchery almost every game or a terran for going MMM most of the time. It's a good build and you have to account for it.
@rade1809 The problem with 2-3 extra queens is that that's 300-450 minerals that ive thrown down the drain.See, a pro called Spinishiwa has shown off this new gasless zerg play style.You dont get gas until about 40 supply.If I make all those extra queens,spine crawlers and lings I forfeit that advantage that I sacrificed so much for, whilst the protoss player can expand behind his phoniex+void push and be ahead of me despite only making one unit.We hate him because hes encouraging it to be
@pliskin100 Fast stargate isnt really the easiest opener. It is very weak against 2base roach/ling allins. Money is on the line here, so if i were in crunchers position i would use the build i am most comfortable with. I think you just wanted mondragon to win, so you just blame cruncher. I don't see how cruncher did not deserve the wins when he played very well this series.
@SeeJay710 Roach/ling all in is just that. An all in. Void rays do extra damage against armored. Combine that with cannons, stalkers and a zealot or two for lings and you deserve to lose if you can't defend it.
fatass cruncher the fucking cheese fag. Beside that Mondi did a very bad job @ defending, but thx cruncher for defeating the last zerg player in the TSL -,-"
Cruncher is my new most hated player. How do you even stop that? I guarantee roaches aren't stop that many cannons. By the time the roach warren finished and the roaches got out, there'd be cannons walling his entire base.
For those bashing cruncher, in the professional sc2 match where theres money on the line, a win is a win. It might not be entertaining to watch for some audience, but you can't discredit a solid player for one cannon rush in a BO5 series. Cruncher has proven himself already with wins against players like Idra, Fenix, and Kiwikaki.
Cruncher is such garbage. Does he actually think he's good? Beats Idra with a 6-gate allin with lucky forcefields and now cannon rushes his way past Mondragon? Gimme a fucking break.
Cruncher is such garbage. Does he actually think he's good? Beats Idra with a 6-gate allin with lucky forcefields and now cannon rushes his way past Mondragon? Gimme a fucking break.
@Reyma777 I hate when people say this. This attitude is so dumb. Just because someone is a better player in a game doesn't mean that people who aren't as good can't point out flaws in their play. PROS ARE NOT PERFECT. I repeat, pros are not perfect players. Everyone makes mistakes and even the noobiest player may be able to point out mistakes and suggest better plays.
What I never understand is why these guys pull all their probes and then rather than target the pylons and cannons, just surround the probe so he can't plant more and extend the cannon push. There's no huge threat with one cannon down, it's extending from the original cannon into range of other stuff...
Cruncher is such trash. He beat IdrA with a 6-gate allin with lucky forcefields, and now cannon rushes his way past this BW legend. Does this kid actually think he's good or something?
@n00bspanker awww we got a little IdrA fanboy, dude SC is about changing up your strategies and taking your opponent by surprise. I guarantee that "kid" Cruncher could dominate you.
why the hell does mondragon take all his workers off the line? all you need is 4 to surround the probe. That's just a bad move.
tookedeamon 2 months ago
I like how everyone is being an idiot and says "omg this guy cheesed mondragon out! fuck him!"
If a Zerg ever goes Hatch first, they DESERVE to lose like this. Cruncher fully expected Mondragon to go pool first, and drop a Cannon at home when his Pool finishes as well as drop a Nexus. But he saw a Hatch first and dropped a Cannon at Mondragon's base instead. You go pool first specifically to deal with this early Protoss aggression.
Greed deserves to be punished in this game.
Oreoclan 3 months ago
@Oreoclan
With the hatch being a production building, I wouldn't necessarily say that hatch first is all that greedy. yes 15-16 hatch is greedy, but 13 hatch 15pool is generally pretty conservative.
Overall, the build isn't the problem.
This game shows that Mondragon makes a couple large missteps, first by leaving the probe alone instead of killing it.
Just like day9 states, he overreacts twice with his workers. And a lack of pressure on the Toss base just seals the deal.
tookedeamon 2 months ago
fun fact - cannons can not actually hit a hatchery with 100% creep spread (ie Mondragons first base is completely safe). no idea why Mondragon didn't cancel the hatchery at around 90-95% then just to a ling run by to Crunchers base...
CakeySoupy 8 months ago
American piece of shit, can't win through skill so has to cannon rush. NaNiwa was right saying American's ain't as good as they think they are at SC2.
danbrownlow 9 months ago
@danbrownlow You're right; the only reason Cruncher cannon rushed was because he is an American.
jagriff333 9 months ago
@danbrownlow naniwa did say that ?
droga187 9 months ago
I officioully hate Cruncher ... He's a bitch ...
mrmadman94 9 months ago
@eminentjonfrost its his fault for going hatch first. Learn the fucking game first copper noob. Youre probably raging cuz you got cannon rushed yourself. Fuck off
ghkdfhr123 9 months ago
@ghkdfhr123 Hi, Cruncher's alt.
DrPepper42yes 9 months ago
Even a fat turd like Cruncher can win, when you play Toss.
Muppet213 10 months ago
Noob... If i was him i will ignore the canon rush
ProHermitDenver 10 months ago
Fucking cannon rush.. GAAAY
RedOnChrome 10 months ago
why don't you listen to the aftergame commentary and realize mondragon made a HUGE mistake rather than dis cruncher?
andrew1007 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@andrew1007 "why don't you listen to the aftergame commentary and realize mondragon made a HUGE mistake rather than dis cruncher?"
Cannon rushes are gay, and so is Cruncher. Period.
eminentjonfrost 10 months ago
terrible play by Cruncher throughout, cheeses and VR whoring and cannon rushing
disgrace to protoss...
leovaeg 10 months ago
Cannon rush in the TSL - USA number one, USA number one.
amerikano 10 months ago
cruncher is so shit mondragon was better in every map SPECIALLY shakuras
hiphopheadlyricist 10 months ago
I so hate cannon rush. They suck so bad.
Ephics 10 months ago
This is a game where the clearly better, more skilled player can lose.
Lol I used to complain competitive Street Fighter had too much 'random/rock,paper, scissor' factor but clearly SC2 has it beat.
OmnipotentO 10 months ago
@OmnipotentO So something like a cannon rush that rarely happens in pro tournaments means that SC2 has more 'random' factor than Street Fighter, a game which you used to complain had too much of this factor? That implies that this randomness consistently occurred in Street Fighter while it doesn't happen in SC2 on a consistent basis. Sure, in ANY game the less skilled player can win just like SC2, but in general the top players will consistently place better in leagues and tournaments in SC2.
Szeicheng 10 months ago 2
cannon rush vs zerg is laughable if the cannons don't block your choke mass speedlings and attack his defenseless base as soon as possible... gg
Danno1850 10 months ago
if you destroy anything with your harvesters then rather the probe to prevent him building more cannons. But still cannons can not move and only attack things in that range so if you put down spine crawlers or bunkers he will no be able to ecxpand anymore
starfox300 10 months ago
so cruncher invests 800 minerals to kill a 300 mineral hatch. Why did mondragon pull drones again?
h0bgawblin 10 months ago 3
I'm a terran, but I'll root for protoss just because they're a humanoid species, not like the disgusting zerg.
cmfireflies 10 months ago
@cmfireflies
wow that was a useless comment
starfox300 10 months ago 2
Ahh cheese builds
Are legit builds because it is hits an opponent off guard which is a great strategy
TwasAZerg 10 months ago
how would IdrA react in that cannon rush?
mustarsic 10 months ago 3
@mustarsic Maybe better, but if he saw the slightest possibility of him not being able to completely deflect it he'd probably just ragequit and cuss.
0dark 10 months ago
@mustarsic "you can win a game with buildings and you mock my race. hardly makes sense" That's what IdrA said to CombatEx after Combat cannon rushed him. IdrA left the game before the first cannon even came up. Classic IdrA for you.
Szeicheng 10 months ago 2
Comment removed
stiv6240 10 months ago
really bad game..this is tsl not ladder -_-
Enozjay 10 months ago
gay cheese is gay
jdude2211 10 months ago 3
@jdude2211 very eloquent
shamanbob 10 months ago
GAYPLAY
wally19 10 months ago 13
protoss have cannon rush like zerg 6 pooled like terran bunker rush. In tournament you can use any strategy to achieve your ultimate goal- Victory
shinichitruc 10 months ago 7
Still diggin the intro
aceofheart00 10 months ago
mondragon was way better, zerg is just terrible!
doubleueyer 10 months ago
@doubleueyer mondragon is the zerg....
KwontumPhysics 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ jpastelero
Dear Butthead,
Are u following any series? TSL3 no mor Zergs in the Tournament! GSL just 5 out of 32!
Total win ratio zerg 41%, Terran and Protoss both over 50%!
So go and f* your self!
Einrexer19 10 months ago
i think its fair to use cannon, it is a strategy to win.
like said in the comment, Mondragon over reacted and it's his fault not be able to defend.
zlzlzl2 10 months ago
teamliquidnet = Spoiler's - 4 vid's CrunCher 2 -1 Lead :(
KiLoW001 10 months ago 2
And cruncher lost any fans he gained from beating idra
morecowbell2413 10 months ago
Husky Rules!
tredogzs 10 months ago
bad decision making by mondragon. He should have cancelled that hatch and built another one somewhere else, and not pull so many drones off mining
lousycactus 10 months ago
i am noob, but i would have cancelled the natural hatch and throw it down anywhere else.
cent4urus 10 months ago
No more Zerg player in the TSL,
only 6 in the GSL (13 Terran, 14 Protoss)
Blizzard your game suckz,
Zerg Player
Einrexer19 10 months ago
Not imbalanced. Huk did the same against Losira in GSL Code A and Losira just canceled his hatchery at the last second and let HuK waste 500+ minerals on cannons. Losira then just pushed HuK's main with 1 base Roach.
ppshchik 10 months ago
Why is cannon rushing considered a noob move? It's only noob when it's the only way you can win, but Cruncher has proved that he is more than capable of winning a "standard" game.
What's noob is losing to a cannon rush. Mondragon pulled all his drones to try and get to the cannon, which was impossible. He should have killed the freaking probe, by the time another one rocked up he could have had spines.
drtisk 10 months ago
@drtisk Agreed. Although I wouldn't call Mondragon a noob. Pulling all those drones was a terrible reaction in hind sight, but its tough to make the right call in high pressure situations.
japmaster02 10 months ago
faggot protoss cheesers
Killstreakification 10 months ago
@Killstreakification i get 6 pooled more often than i get cannon rushed on ladder (diamond)...does that mean zergs are faggot cheeser too? like, all of them?
iknowbetter 10 months ago
@iknowbetter I play alot of 4v4 Diamond,and it's just the same, far more 6 pools than cannon rushes. Zerg players are hypocrits.
Truthtolder 10 months ago
not a noob move when playing in a tournament for cash but it is a noob move in ladder games
tazerfacial 10 months ago
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
sor3999 10 months ago
I hate canon rush
etwisabeta 10 months ago
Lol I'm Protoss and I have to say that crunched plays like a fag
lilkoreanboytom 10 months ago
Pro-level noob?
DancesWithPandas 10 months ago
Must correct my last post, what I can never understand is why these guy don't just surround the probe lol. I worded that post badly.
Paragonofcynicism 10 months ago
what a cheesy bitch. i was a huge cruncher fan.....till i saw this game. what a douche
Joda312 10 months ago
I'm now a anti-fan of CrunCher. I hate cannon rushing especially in big games.
LordGilgamesh01 10 months ago
@LordGilgamesh01 The guys playing for thousands of dollars and he was setting himself up for an expansion.... Every zerg knows this can happen, and how come no one calls cheese on Marine King when he proxies two barracks every other game... Its a strategy game and cannons are apart of the game
firemansam54321 10 months ago
That was actually brilliant using those buildings to block the canons. Who else has ever done that?
JohnnyDarko01 10 months ago
i dont get cruncher
this is a non skill win he doesnt deserve this win that was boring and every player can do this
even bronze can do cannon rush and do that the same way
bad GAME!!
BHP2412 10 months ago
@BHP2412 you just butt hurt that mon dragon fucked up. He shouldnt of pulled all those drones.
JohnnyDarko01 10 months ago
Players like cruncher makes a mockery out of SC2 as an E-sport, it takes out any credibility this game might have as a pro-game. The only responsables for this travesty of balance are Blizzard developers who are so "passively" making changes, yet the game is borderline a joke as a competitive game. Besides Cruncher being a medicro master leaguer scrub making it into pro tournaments thanks to abusing such a broken race is the fact that zerg remains a fucking joke at pro-level.
H0okemh0rns 10 months ago
@H0okemh0rns
shhhhhhhh
Cannon rushes have existed since the beginning of starcraft, players play to win. This tournament has a lot of money on the line.
I doubt he cares what random youtube commenters think when he's making money off of the win.
EdwardManeikis 10 months ago
@EdwardManeikis As that might be true, but imagine almost every pro game would be like this, would you keep on watching? Pure excitement eh? ^^ Sorry but I can understand why Idra rage quits when this happens. This is simply moronic. Bronze, Silver mybe Gold okay, but any other league this sort of play is crappy IMHO
s1mmelOne 10 months ago
@H0okemh0rns "master league scrub"
I will let the asininity of that statement stand. Another butt hurt silver league keyboard warrior
JohnnyDarko01 10 months ago
@H0okemh0rns
My GOODNESS did that comment make little sense.
snufflewuffle 10 months ago
good job cruncher! mondragon needs to learn how to stop cannon rushes.
markpwnsyou 10 months ago
cruncher is horrid
cmgillett 10 months ago
cruncher sucks dick
cmgillett 10 months ago
What's wrong with you people? It was a great tactic, it was not an all-in at all. Sometimes zerg pro players do 6-pool, so what? Or terran players try to bunker rush, so what? It's all about exploting the potential opponents mistakes, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Deal with it or don't watch/play SC2.
ljubboyt 10 months ago
omfg i am really impressed of cruncher... this sucker really did something else instead of rays and colls... wtf seriously! he knows a lot of builds but he ALWAYS go against Z rays+colls!!! let's see if he does this in the next game... cruncher wins a lot against Z but i really think he sucks as a player...
mopy001 10 months ago
@mopy001
You could say the same thing about Idra usually doing macro games as Z. Or Goody always (up until 1 game recently) doing mech. Same tactics. Doesn't mean they suck. Infact, cruncher usually does other things.
silver2zilver 10 months ago
This was MonDragon's fault and could have been avoided completely
d3008 10 months ago
cruncher can't win so he desperaly goes to this cheesy shitty photon cannon rush... (palmface)
andyfmiranda 10 months ago
if you don't know how to defend cannon rush like that, then ur the bronze player :)
woreyour 10 months ago
Cannon Rush is there Since 1996; that's 15 years at least, where Have you been? Your fault for not scouting and countering correctly.
twndomn 10 months ago
@twndomn its not his fault that his opponent had to resort to a cheesy ass strategy in order to beat a really solid zerg
captainoptimusprime 10 months ago
@captainoptimusprime A win is a win; a "stylish/solid" win and "cheesy" win have no difference, both are +1 in your win column. A "solid" Zerg would scout early and counter appropriately, as day9 and husky mentioned, which we did not see in that video.
twndomn 10 months ago
lost respect for crunch that was lame
Cadaverz707 10 months ago
Toss up.
N4zroth 10 months ago 2
omg... moon doenst know how to deal with cheese
00calvera 10 months ago
Cruncher still tower rushing lol, guess he couldn't drop his habit from WC3.
xtjax 10 months ago
it's balanced guys. quit complaining.
lvlarix 10 months ago
@lvlarix
Alles klar, Copperboy, du als HomerGay-Schauer kannst ja auch nur failen
onemanarmylaEn 10 months ago
@onemanarmylaEn stimme dir 100%tig zu!
mopy001 10 months ago
CrunCher played well and tha move was smart.
Sjumps000 10 months ago 3
@Sjumps000 how is cannon rushing playing well? lol bronzies can pull that off
TheStrokesofSC 10 months ago
@TheStrokesofSC he did it in a great spot vs a top level zerg, i would like to see any bronzie pull that off. As Day9 pointed out he overreacted instead of lettin the cannons sit there and do nothing. Also, he was gonna wall off his expo with the forge, but instead he punished the early expo which was a smart move.
Sjumps000 10 months ago
@Sjumps000 rofl
Gyozomroka 10 months ago
fucking pathetic
johnnythebrain 10 months ago
pulling those drones was dumb
Sotanath86q 10 months ago 19
hatch first vs P is risky and gives the zerg a slight lead, nothing wrong with cruncher punishing it
Sotanath86q 10 months ago
guys need to calm down and stop calling CrunCher a noob. lets think about this match for a moment. he just cannon rushed a PRO zerg, on tal'darim altar. do you know how much skill that takes? i say props to CrunCher for being able to win this match.
MrsBaruzziIsTheBest 10 months ago
I dont get it . Cancel the hatch. wait for a pool tell toss to say goodbye to 400 minerals?
shoemama 10 months ago 2
The point is, he has no shot at winning this if he has to resort to something as cheesy as this.
If you need to resort to this to win, what chance do you have at beating anyone else.
fuccons 10 months ago
@fuccons How so? He bested Idra with 2 macro games and also (as of this game), bested Mondragon with a macro game at Shakuras. He punished Mondragon as Mondragon was getting greedy. There's a difference between being a cheesy player and someone who understands the utility of cheese and uses it well. Cruncher looks to be the latter. Also, he just cannon rushed Mondragon successfully. That has to count for something. He might not win because of people like MC, but that's a different story.
kennyc002 10 months ago 4
Fuck cruncher.
8jb65 10 months ago
although i really really hate cheesy fucking protoss.... this loss was all on the zerg... its is NEVER EVER safe to FE before pool against protoss... a 14pool into expo can hold off 2gate proxy and cannon rushes fairly easy. Mondragon got caught meta gaming but at the same time toss didnt even scout for the late pool and just herp derp CC EECCCC
gimpzilla 10 months ago
Can't wait until cruncher gets anally destroyed by naniwa
InappropriateBanana 10 months ago
I love that he won this way, if for nothing else than to listen to people cry about it. Anything that can be done in SC2 is a valid strat. Cheese is word created by raged filled cry babies who couldn't react to a valid, and risky strat. Get over yourself.
Macsimus007 10 months ago
@Macsimus007 thumbs up! :)
ShaddyOShaudy 10 months ago
@Macsimus007
Agreed. Cannon rush is a legit tactic and is not that difficult to counter. Just don't noob panic in response. Not saying Mondragon is a noob, he's a great player and I have a zerg bias so usually always root for the zerg player, but what we all witnessed was clearly the textbook definition of panic.
FlyoviaUSA 10 months ago
the actual game is 35% of the whole video lenght
Tyfyh 10 months ago
Sick cannon rush placement!
dear next zerg opponent.. if you see me on ladder on that map.. im doing this
WIN!
DJNess15 10 months ago
cannons -.-
kruuemmel 10 months ago
@TheBarett012 EXACTLY! CrunCher caught Mondi with his pants down and made him pay. End of story.
xs2dan 10 months ago
@xs2dan Pants down? It got scouted... it just proves it's a easy no skill cheese strat, end of story.
Why does the most powerful race with the most abilities have the best static defense? Those air & ground attacking cannons are stupid powerful!!!
SupaPoopaScoopa 10 months ago
Fuck you Crunsher. Its ppl like U that gives all protoss a bad reputation.
Janjacobsen89 10 months ago
Its all withing the rules of the game. A win is a win. Anyway this had nothing to do with toss being op, just mondragon losing his head a bit and getting taken by surprise.
persianprince84 10 months ago
fuck u cruncher
odesstern199 10 months ago
You know, for StarCraft being such an intelligent game, there's sure a lot of dumb people watching and playing it. CrunCher didn't cheese, he was going for a Forge FE and saw the opportunity to cannon rush. And he took it. Had it failed, he still could have transitioned out of it. Protoss is not a better race, it just lends itself to these kinds of strategies more.
Accept it, learn from it, deal with it.
xs2dan 10 months ago 2
@xs2dan Buddy, making that much cannons and pylons that early is an all in. You could clearly see it was a planned cheese. He continued making the cannons even after mondragon saw it. If he transitioned out of a failed cannon rush, he would be severly behind. Cruncher flipped a coin and won, congrats to him. But don't call other people stupid when you make stupid comments like this
aj7774 10 months ago
@aj7774 Well, you can call it an all in, I call it brilliant decision-making: hiding the pylon under the tree, so it doesn't get spotted, building the cannon and walling it in with pylons, increasing the chance of it not failing. Look at his money in the replay, it's all the way up to 350 when the first pylon finishes unmolested. Had Mondi spotted it and sent workers to kill it, he could've easily built the Nexus instead of the cannon and pylon wall-in.
xs2dan 10 months ago
@xs2dan This cannon rush was completely planned. The specific spot he chose to put the pylon and execute this rush is not due to decision making but something he planned to do before hand. Mondragon simply overreacted with his drones and cruncher got lucky with his cannon rush. Mondragon simply needed to make some spine crawlers in the natural and main and that would have easily shut down the cannon rush. That was a risky play by cruncher and he got lucky which is why we call it cheesy.
aj7774 10 months ago
@aj7774 Oh, I'm not saying it wasn't planned: The Forge FE into cannon-rush is not an uncommon stretegy for Protoss. If the rush gets spotted early, you can go back to your FE strat. If it doesn't, you can try the cannon-rush. Had he built the Forge in his main with no back-up plan, then yes, I would definitely call that cheese, too. This is simply a calculated risk: If it works, great! If it doesn't, I'm behind but not out of the game.
xs2dan 10 months ago
4:38 even day 9 is disgusted
abusedbunny 10 months ago
I facepalmed HARD when I saw him go after the pylon wall protecting the cannon that was in range to kill _nothing_ rather than just killing the probe. I hate cheese but people not knowing the proper way to respond is exactly the reason people keep using it.
bigDean636 10 months ago 2
pathetic....i agree with previous poster. mondragon is such a better player than cruncher, but cruncher has better race. winning a series because of a cannon rush......pathetic.
Gremlin119 10 months ago
where is the smiley face?? if you're gna troll, troll with class
albusfr 10 months ago
Go cruncher!!! Sorry even tho i play zerg, but cruncher is awesome!
TickyTok 10 months ago
I didn't even watch this ... Mondragon is obviously the better player , but cruncher has the better race .
SeQuoiae1 10 months ago 2
@SeQuoiae1 lemme guess... youre a zerg?
thekazmir101 10 months ago
@thekazmir101 No , i'm not gay !
SeQuoiae1 10 months ago
@SeQuoiae1 then stop whining about imbalance
thekazmir101 10 months ago
CHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE OMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG LAAAAAAAAAAAMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
memokk 10 months ago
Cancel the hatch you greedy bastard!
ltsjack 10 months ago 3
@ltsjack it would've been GG anyway even if he canceled the hatch, because he has the zerg contained with cannons as well as an expansion.
Lubie225 10 months ago
@endlives all the haters r so quick to throw out their opinion, so don't see why his supporters can't do the same =\
archides 10 months ago
FFE stargates or cannon rush;. Christ cruncher is a two trick pony.
pliskin100 10 months ago
@pliskin100 Hmmm...so how many openers do toss actually have against zerg that is econ focused. Lets see, 3gate expo, FFE...hmm not much else that seems great when transitioning huh. I know cannon rushing isnt exactly econ focused but it does transition into expanding.
SeeJay710 10 months ago
@SeeJay710 There are hundreds of viable builds for protoss, the problem is, is that cruncher pickes the easiest one and does it every time. I've never seen boxer do the same build in a set of games before. Want to know why? Becasue he's good enough to not need to make a fucking fast stargate every game like cruncher does. He's a sub par protoss scrub who doesn't earn his wins.
pliskin100 10 months ago
@pliskin100 too true. he's riding the protoss coat tails. he reminds me of a beta protoss player with the mass void ray play every single game. jeez why do people like this guy
MariosGuy 10 months ago
@MariosGuy Exactly. There's a guy called CombatEx who is in grandmasters from just cannon rushing. He lost to ROOTDrewbie's zerg,protoss and terran. He's horrible and is being carried by his race. If you look for Destiny's channel theres a game where him and destiny swap races and Destiny just fucking dominates him with 3 stalkers.
pliskin100 10 months ago
@pliskin100 hahahaha actually i was watching Spanishiwa's stream as he was doing the funday monday and he faced combatex xDD it was so funny because Day9 was in the skype call with Spanishiwa and combatex was just dissing them both so hard.
MariosGuy 10 months ago
@pliskin100
If a fast stargate is such an imba build, why doesn't everybody do it? It's his style. A lot of pro players play a certain style for long periods of time. It's like day9 said one time:" if you are ok at doing 5 builds, you are on ok player, but if you can do 1 build great, you are a great player".
rade1809 10 months ago
@rade1809 a true tournament player does not rely on one opening.
well, cruncher got three openings. 4 gate and 3 gate expand into stargate play, and dt rushing.
hellopellos 10 months ago
@rade1809 Everybody DOES do it. Do you even watch pro tournements? Incontrol did it 5 times in a fucking row. In one game incontrol cannon rushed to fast stargate to DT rush. Only with protoss could he cheese 3 times before the 10 minute mark.
pliskin100 10 months ago
@pliskin100
If someone else is doing it, it doesn't mean he can't do it as well and use that style if it fits him. I saw 3 players use this build consistently and make them work: cruncher, incontrol and hasuobs. Other players may use it from time to time but saying that everybody does this build is severely exaggarating. And fast stargate is not a cheese, it's a legit build. I really don't understand why everyone is calling it cheese.
rade1809 10 months ago
@rade1809 First off, Cruncher and Incontrol are amatuers. Second, fast stargate isn't cheese. It's just that as a zerg it's impossible to scout unless I waste 100 min. The problem is that you can't scout and then start to build queens fast enough. You have to start defending for it BEFORE you scout it. How is that balanced at all? Guys like JulyZerg and Fruitdealer just do builds to defend against fast SG every game, becasue they have to.
pliskin100 10 months ago
@pliskin100
What's wrong with building more queens? You can hear day9 say often that zergs need to build more queens as they provide defence, free up larva for drones, and you can get crazy creep spread and also transfuse if you're in a pinch.
So if it's not cheese, why is everybody hating on this guy for doing a standard opening. It's like hating a zerg for going a fast hatchery almost every game or a terran for going MMM most of the time. It's a good build and you have to account for it.
rade1809 10 months ago 2
@rade1809 The problem with 2-3 extra queens is that that's 300-450 minerals that ive thrown down the drain.See, a pro called Spinishiwa has shown off this new gasless zerg play style.You dont get gas until about 40 supply.If I make all those extra queens,spine crawlers and lings I forfeit that advantage that I sacrificed so much for, whilst the protoss player can expand behind his phoniex+void push and be ahead of me despite only making one unit.We hate him because hes encouraging it to be
pliskin100 10 months ago
@pliskin100 Fast stargate isnt really the easiest opener. It is very weak against 2base roach/ling allins. Money is on the line here, so if i were in crunchers position i would use the build i am most comfortable with. I think you just wanted mondragon to win, so you just blame cruncher. I don't see how cruncher did not deserve the wins when he played very well this series.
SeeJay710 10 months ago
@SeeJay710 Roach/ling all in is just that. An all in. Void rays do extra damage against armored. Combine that with cannons, stalkers and a zealot or two for lings and you deserve to lose if you can't defend it.
pliskin100 10 months ago
@SeeJay710 he wanted the more skilled player to win, in my opinion, and probably also in his opinion, mondragon was playin better in most games.
suckieduckie 10 months ago
fatass cruncher the fucking cheese fag. Beside that Mondi did a very bad job @ defending, but thx cruncher for defeating the last zerg player in the TSL -,-"
Menno9999 10 months ago
protoss dont even need to cannon rush to wreck zerg the fuck is this bullshit
porridgejrjrman 10 months ago
CrunCher's a slick fighter. Love seeing this guy play.
archides 10 months ago
LOOOOL Protoss pretty good mang
aoeiifreak 10 months ago
wow I'm a protoss player and even I thought that was a bit of a dick move
knsmile87 10 months ago
Cruncher is my new most hated player. How do you even stop that? I guarantee roaches aren't stop that many cannons. By the time the roach warren finished and the roaches got out, there'd be cannons walling his entire base.
omnimoeish 10 months ago
For those bashing cruncher, in the professional sc2 match where theres money on the line, a win is a win. It might not be entertaining to watch for some audience, but you can't discredit a solid player for one cannon rush in a BO5 series. Cruncher has proven himself already with wins against players like Idra, Fenix, and Kiwikaki.
AcidosisTV 10 months ago 5
I call bullshit on CrunCher's blurb "an unpredictable style with many possible strategies." He does two things: 2-base VR and Cannon Rush.
4TehLulz 10 months ago
@4TehLulz your a retard, ive seen him 4 gate 6 gate 2 gate, 1 base vr, cannon rush, proxy gate, stop trolling you dont know what ur talking about
brandonpringle16 10 months ago
Cruncher is such garbage. Does he actually think he's good? Beats Idra with a 6-gate allin with lucky forcefields and now cannon rushes his way past Mondragon? Gimme a fucking break.
n00bspanker 10 months ago
@n00bspanker
He plays to win. Is it wrong to play to win?
olyfag 10 months ago 3
Idra made a mistake by creating more Drones even when seeing the push coming, so its his own fault there.
Apparently Cruncher can beat Mondragon in 2 other ways that aren't cannon rushing as well.
Keep701 10 months ago
Cruncher is such garbage. Does he actually think he's good? Beats Idra with a 6-gate allin with lucky forcefields and now cannon rushes his way past Mondragon? Gimme a fucking break.
n00bspanker 10 months ago
@n00bspanker i think he much better player than you are
Reyma777 10 months ago 5
@Reyma777 I hate when people say this. This attitude is so dumb. Just because someone is a better player in a game doesn't mean that people who aren't as good can't point out flaws in their play. PROS ARE NOT PERFECT. I repeat, pros are not perfect players. Everyone makes mistakes and even the noobiest player may be able to point out mistakes and suggest better plays.
Paragonofcynicism 10 months ago
What I never understand is why these guys pull all their probes and then rather than target the pylons and cannons, just surround the probe so he can't plant more and extend the cannon push. There's no huge threat with one cannon down, it's extending from the original cannon into range of other stuff...
Paragonofcynicism 10 months ago
Cruncher is such trash. He beat IdrA with a 6-gate allin with lucky forcefields, and now cannon rushes his way past this BW legend. Does this kid actually think he's good or something?
n00bspanker 10 months ago
@n00bspanker awww we got a little IdrA fanboy, dude SC is about changing up your strategies and taking your opponent by surprise. I guarantee that "kid" Cruncher could dominate you.
brodis11 10 months ago 3
@brodis11 Go back to Bronze league. Thanks. Bye.
n00bspanker 10 months ago
@n00bspanker Stfu kid.
phoMuncher 10 months ago
who did the intro vid?
TheDouchebagery 10 months ago
Completely outclassed by Cruncher.
ppshchik 10 months ago