a truly awesome video, what an amazing expression of form! very subtle yet devastatingly powerfull.. I have only read in part of the Yi Quan practice but found it very interesting in that it is all be based around Zhan Zhuang, i feel this makes alot of sense.. and the idea that nothing should be presumed by the student (even the principal of the dan tian) unless he has experienced it and felt the reality of such a principal himself, is very inspiring.. any classes in London?? :)
One last thing : the best Jian Wu, by far, I have seen in my life, is that of my late teacher, Wang Reng Ang, really a span above the others, and the only Chinese Yi Quan Master who did something really special, making me image what Wang Xiang Zhai was alike. And he, too, on Youtube, received some stupid comments. But he was wiser than me, and didn't reply.
I mean this : I have studied Yi Quan for twenty years with most of the most famous teachers, Yao, Cui, Li Jian Yu, Sun Li, Wang Reng Ang, Han Jing Yu etc. etc. , and I can assure you of one thing : nobody of them had the same ideas on Yi Quan, and nobody of them did the same things. So, why you pretend to have this "revealed truth" on Jian Wu ? Did you speak with the spirit of Wang Xian Zhai ? My Jian Wu is just as correct as yours, and a lot better when we come to fighting...
Dear Friend, Jan Kallenback is a very old and good friend of mine, I just regret to not meet him more often... As for my Yi Quan, it is a bit different from what I did study, so I call it Wu Xin Quan, Martial Heart Boxing, but it is all the same Yi Quan. When I teach, or in my book, I clearly point out what is classical, and what is mine.
. As for the "nonsensical moves", these are moves that have no clear aim or purpose, and there are lot of them in many Jian Wu. To make a long story short, just imagine in any move of your Jian Wu that you have in front of you a very good Thai Boxer ready to hit... Are you going to do the same movements ?
@NeiJiaAcademy Clearly, you don't understand the meaning of Jianwu. Jianwu,as the word implies is for health, so any movement that you do will suffice.As long it is in accordance with Yi (intention) guiding,and Mo Li (seeking) Hun Yuanli (natural force). If not, than indeed it would be "nonsensical movement".
Reageren op deze video... However, If you were to perform Quanwu (Martial dance), which is still based on Jianwu, then the Yi would contain different Jiaji (imagination). One's body movements and imagination would be set on being merciless and realistic fighting actions, because the Fali (discharge of force) follows the Jiaiji (imagination) and one's actions are produced by the Yi (intention). Any innovation based on these principals is fine by me. Peace...
@paragate Therfore, every action is accompanied by Jiaiji(imagination), if one's actions are without Jiaiji then the body's force will not be true.When preforming the health / martial dance one should never loose the feeling state of "the whole body as if a cast, as if being filled with lead, the muscles are as one and as if the hairs stand out like frightened cat". This is, to my knowledge, the real meaning of the state and practice of the health / martial dance.
@paragate Just to make it clear.... All the comments that I made were quotes based on the words of Mr. Wang Xianzhai himself, which he wrote in his "The essence of Martial Arts" in a chapter called "A talk on the four forms" .To quote him again.... The essence of Martial Arts is that when Spirit, Intention and the Natural Living Force come together.... one will come to know that the wonder (essence) of all Martial Arts is in this Art ( Yiquan) and in no other......
Looks fine to me. There's no problem with incorporating elements of taiji in to jianwu, and I think you do it very nicely - some Xing Yi in there as well, I think. My own coach was very much in to the idea of fusing Chen taiji with Yiquan. If the elements are all things that you love and feel comforatable with, I believe that will always yield a better expression of your Quan than any industrialised, standard version. Paragate's jianwu looks fine too. Best of luck to all in their training.
Please, note that this is not ordinary Yi Quan, but Wu Xin Quan, my style, that is a bit different. After twenty years, and thousands of hours of practice, and so many famous masters, I came to dislike deeply the nonsensical moves of many Yi Quan Jian Wu. I can do the Jian Wu like yours , or like Cui or Yao, but I don't agree anymore with that method...
@NeiJiaAcademy That explains allot, but still you do call it Yiquan Jianwu (health dance). Why not say that it is Wu Xin Quan (No mind boxing?) from the start?So what is it that you do different then, why your deep dislike for the so called nonsensical moves of Jianwu and why do you not agree with that method any more? Do the Yao brothers or Mr. Cui move nonsensical? Please, I really want to know and learn...Peace.
@paragate It's always with a certain trepidation - and quite rarely now - that I step in to discussions like this. However, these is one powerful issue that I think needs considering. Yiquan has, as part of its mandate, continuous improvement based on empirical research. Meaning, if you can demonstrate that a past method is surpassed by a new method, then it doesn't matter who you are, were taught by, who you contradict etc. If you can demonstrate the practical truth, then there's no problem.
For example, the Yao brothers famously altered the punching method, incorporating the twisting movement of the foot, and encouraged people to experiment to see the difference in power. And I agree, there's an empirically demonstrable improvement in power. Are they saying that their father, and Wang were wrong? Well, yes, but no - they're doing what they're supposed to do - researching and improving. No one can be prevented fron altering methods based on 'that's not what was done before'...
...because that contradicts the mandate, precedent, and spoken word of Wang and others, like Zhao Dao Xin who specifically encouraged the adoption of the science/academic method of new generations emerging as scholars who research and improve methods. No one can say 'the Yaos are above criticism' - that's nonsense - fight science can continually be improved, and they themselves say that - that new generations have to absorb the cream of other ideas and methods.
Something that strikes me often is that some of the elements of Yao's yiquan come from boxing methods from a long time ago. It's perfectly reasonable, therefore, to look at boxing methods now, and also learn new, modern advances. Personally, I'd say the defensive methods of modern boxing are one of the most important 'creams' that can be added to modern Yiquan. But seeing that modern boxing is great doesn't diminish the greatness of old time boxers - it builds on them.
So - final word - people have different expressions of jianwu, and yiquan. Personally, I reject the 'industrialisation' of yiquan, where everyone is expected to be identical - that's contrary to the idea of finding and expressing your own potential. Where we have truly left the path, though, is in judging each other on training methods, and not results. What we've lost is that the fighting aspect is the biggest part - if you can't practicaly use it, who even cares what your training method was?
@FamilyQuan I totally agree with you but in this case Mr. Agostini first claims that it's Yiquan Jianwu and then say's no... it's Wu Xin Quan. To say that this vid. is an improvement is to my mind slightly over estimated.Would you agree that improvement in any kind of movement should be based on the original universal principles of contradiction force in the six directions, whereby one is able to develop natural force. Apart from this, any kind improvement would be nonsense.
Reageren op deze video...Yet some external adjustments can develop and enhance the feeling of power. If one can demonstrate natural force in all directions, then a small or a big, fast, slow movement will be right. We should always be in a state of learning. We should always seek improvement, not for the sake of improvement, but for the sake of being always in a state of learning Can you also explain to me the difference between power and force... are they the same?
@NeiJiaAcademy Let me say again that I was among of the first students of mr. Sato when he came to Amsterdam with Mr. Kalenbach in 1972 to promote Tai Ki Ken for the first time. Mr. Kalenbach was at that time a fellow senior Karateka and my Iai Do teacher. What I mean to say is that I do know something about something.
No, I did not study with the Yao brothers or Cui but a couple of my students did., But I did study with A student of Master Yao Shunchun, Master Wang Xuanijie and Master Li Yuanli, Mr. Sato, Mr. Iwama and Mr. Sawai jr. of the Tai Ki Ken Branch. I have been practising Tai Ki Ken and Yiquan and other internal styles for more than 30 years. In my younger years I was a frequent Asia traveller. But being taught by all these teachers does not guarantee that one is a good learner... Peace.
I can see that you did more Taiji than Yiquan. therefore there is no agility in you mind and movements. If you look at the Jianwu of the Yao brothers, Mr. Cui Rubin or any other contemporary Yiquan Masters, you will see what I mean. With them you can immediately see the mind-force (Hun Yuanli) deeply and spontaneously at work .So, all I can say is that you need to research this more deeply, especially if you are teaching it. If you put something on you-tube your bound to get criticism. Peace.
@paragate I absolutely agree, I can see little dynamic fluid movement it just seems mainly ponderous and static. It must be hard to accept comments that challenge his years of practice. But unfortunately practice does not necessarily result in attainment.
a truly awesome video, what an amazing expression of form! very subtle yet devastatingly powerfull.. I have only read in part of the Yi Quan practice but found it very interesting in that it is all be based around Zhan Zhuang, i feel this makes alot of sense.. and the idea that nothing should be presumed by the student (even the principal of the dan tian) unless he has experienced it and felt the reality of such a principal himself, is very inspiring.. any classes in London?? :)
14jbaker 10 months ago
One last thing : the best Jian Wu, by far, I have seen in my life, is that of my late teacher, Wang Reng Ang, really a span above the others, and the only Chinese Yi Quan Master who did something really special, making me image what Wang Xiang Zhai was alike. And he, too, on Youtube, received some stupid comments. But he was wiser than me, and didn't reply.
NeiJiaAcademy 1 year ago
@NeiJiaAcademy
paragate 1 year ago
I mean this : I have studied Yi Quan for twenty years with most of the most famous teachers, Yao, Cui, Li Jian Yu, Sun Li, Wang Reng Ang, Han Jing Yu etc. etc. , and I can assure you of one thing : nobody of them had the same ideas on Yi Quan, and nobody of them did the same things. So, why you pretend to have this "revealed truth" on Jian Wu ? Did you speak with the spirit of Wang Xian Zhai ? My Jian Wu is just as correct as yours, and a lot better when we come to fighting...
NeiJiaAcademy 1 year ago
Dear friend, let me give you an advice : free your mind.
It seems to be tied with fixed ideas, and this is not the true spirit of Yi Quan...
NeiJiaAcademy 1 year ago
Dear Friend, Jan Kallenback is a very old and good friend of mine, I just regret to not meet him more often... As for my Yi Quan, it is a bit different from what I did study, so I call it Wu Xin Quan, Martial Heart Boxing, but it is all the same Yi Quan. When I teach, or in my book, I clearly point out what is classical, and what is mine.
NeiJiaAcademy 1 year ago
. As for the "nonsensical moves", these are moves that have no clear aim or purpose, and there are lot of them in many Jian Wu. To make a long story short, just imagine in any move of your Jian Wu that you have in front of you a very good Thai Boxer ready to hit... Are you going to do the same movements ?
NeiJiaAcademy 1 year ago
@NeiJiaAcademy Clearly, you don't understand the meaning of Jianwu. Jianwu,as the word implies is for health, so any movement that you do will suffice.As long it is in accordance with Yi (intention) guiding,and Mo Li (seeking) Hun Yuanli (natural force). If not, than indeed it would be "nonsensical movement".
paragate 1 year ago
Reageren op deze video... However, If you were to perform Quanwu (Martial dance), which is still based on Jianwu, then the Yi would contain different Jiaji (imagination). One's body movements and imagination would be set on being merciless and realistic fighting actions, because the Fali (discharge of force) follows the Jiaiji (imagination) and one's actions are produced by the Yi (intention). Any innovation based on these principals is fine by me. Peace...
paragate 1 year ago
@paragate Therfore, every action is accompanied by Jiaiji(imagination), if one's actions are without Jiaiji then the body's force will not be true.When preforming the health / martial dance one should never loose the feeling state of "the whole body as if a cast, as if being filled with lead, the muscles are as one and as if the hairs stand out like frightened cat". This is, to my knowledge, the real meaning of the state and practice of the health / martial dance.
paragate 1 year ago
@paragate Just to make it clear.... All the comments that I made were quotes based on the words of Mr. Wang Xianzhai himself, which he wrote in his "The essence of Martial Arts" in a chapter called "A talk on the four forms" .To quote him again.... The essence of Martial Arts is that when Spirit, Intention and the Natural Living Force come together.... one will come to know that the wonder (essence) of all Martial Arts is in this Art ( Yiquan) and in no other......
paragate 1 year ago
Looks fine to me. There's no problem with incorporating elements of taiji in to jianwu, and I think you do it very nicely - some Xing Yi in there as well, I think. My own coach was very much in to the idea of fusing Chen taiji with Yiquan. If the elements are all things that you love and feel comforatable with, I believe that will always yield a better expression of your Quan than any industrialised, standard version. Paragate's jianwu looks fine too. Best of luck to all in their training.
FamilyQuan 1 year ago
Please, note that this is not ordinary Yi Quan, but Wu Xin Quan, my style, that is a bit different. After twenty years, and thousands of hours of practice, and so many famous masters, I came to dislike deeply the nonsensical moves of many Yi Quan Jian Wu. I can do the Jian Wu like yours , or like Cui or Yao, but I don't agree anymore with that method...
NeiJiaAcademy 1 year ago
@NeiJiaAcademy That explains allot, but still you do call it Yiquan Jianwu (health dance). Why not say that it is Wu Xin Quan (No mind boxing?) from the start?So what is it that you do different then, why your deep dislike for the so called nonsensical moves of Jianwu and why do you not agree with that method any more? Do the Yao brothers or Mr. Cui move nonsensical? Please, I really want to know and learn...Peace.
paragate 1 year ago
@paragate It's always with a certain trepidation - and quite rarely now - that I step in to discussions like this. However, these is one powerful issue that I think needs considering. Yiquan has, as part of its mandate, continuous improvement based on empirical research. Meaning, if you can demonstrate that a past method is surpassed by a new method, then it doesn't matter who you are, were taught by, who you contradict etc. If you can demonstrate the practical truth, then there's no problem.
FamilyQuan 1 year ago
For example, the Yao brothers famously altered the punching method, incorporating the twisting movement of the foot, and encouraged people to experiment to see the difference in power. And I agree, there's an empirically demonstrable improvement in power. Are they saying that their father, and Wang were wrong? Well, yes, but no - they're doing what they're supposed to do - researching and improving. No one can be prevented fron altering methods based on 'that's not what was done before'...
FamilyQuan 1 year ago
...because that contradicts the mandate, precedent, and spoken word of Wang and others, like Zhao Dao Xin who specifically encouraged the adoption of the science/academic method of new generations emerging as scholars who research and improve methods. No one can say 'the Yaos are above criticism' - that's nonsense - fight science can continually be improved, and they themselves say that - that new generations have to absorb the cream of other ideas and methods.
FamilyQuan 1 year ago
Something that strikes me often is that some of the elements of Yao's yiquan come from boxing methods from a long time ago. It's perfectly reasonable, therefore, to look at boxing methods now, and also learn new, modern advances. Personally, I'd say the defensive methods of modern boxing are one of the most important 'creams' that can be added to modern Yiquan. But seeing that modern boxing is great doesn't diminish the greatness of old time boxers - it builds on them.
FamilyQuan 1 year ago
So - final word - people have different expressions of jianwu, and yiquan. Personally, I reject the 'industrialisation' of yiquan, where everyone is expected to be identical - that's contrary to the idea of finding and expressing your own potential. Where we have truly left the path, though, is in judging each other on training methods, and not results. What we've lost is that the fighting aspect is the biggest part - if you can't practicaly use it, who even cares what your training method was?
FamilyQuan 1 year ago
@FamilyQuan I totally agree with you but in this case Mr. Agostini first claims that it's Yiquan Jianwu and then say's no... it's Wu Xin Quan. To say that this vid. is an improvement is to my mind slightly over estimated.Would you agree that improvement in any kind of movement should be based on the original universal principles of contradiction force in the six directions, whereby one is able to develop natural force. Apart from this, any kind improvement would be nonsense.
paragate 1 year ago
Comment removed
FamilyQuan 1 year ago
@paragate This could be true. There again, yiquan already is considered nonsense by many, if not most people. So how much worse could it really get?
FamilyQuan 1 year ago
Reageren op deze video...Yet some external adjustments can develop and enhance the feeling of power. If one can demonstrate natural force in all directions, then a small or a big, fast, slow movement will be right. We should always be in a state of learning. We should always seek improvement, not for the sake of improvement, but for the sake of being always in a state of learning Can you also explain to me the difference between power and force... are they the same?
paragate 1 year ago
@NeiJiaAcademy Let me say again that I was among of the first students of mr. Sato when he came to Amsterdam with Mr. Kalenbach in 1972 to promote Tai Ki Ken for the first time. Mr. Kalenbach was at that time a fellow senior Karateka and my Iai Do teacher. What I mean to say is that I do know something about something.
paragate 1 year ago
No, I did not study with the Yao brothers or Cui but a couple of my students did., But I did study with A student of Master Yao Shunchun, Master Wang Xuanijie and Master Li Yuanli, Mr. Sato, Mr. Iwama and Mr. Sawai jr. of the Tai Ki Ken Branch. I have been practising Tai Ki Ken and Yiquan and other internal styles for more than 30 years. In my younger years I was a frequent Asia traveller. But being taught by all these teachers does not guarantee that one is a good learner... Peace.
paragate 1 year ago
I did study with Yao and Cui. You simply don't know what you are speaking of... Peace.
NeiJiaAcademy 1 year ago
I can see that you did more Taiji than Yiquan. therefore there is no agility in you mind and movements. If you look at the Jianwu of the Yao brothers, Mr. Cui Rubin or any other contemporary Yiquan Masters, you will see what I mean. With them you can immediately see the mind-force (Hun Yuanli) deeply and spontaneously at work .So, all I can say is that you need to research this more deeply, especially if you are teaching it. If you put something on you-tube your bound to get criticism. Peace.
paragate 1 year ago
@paragate I absolutely agree, I can see little dynamic fluid movement it just seems mainly ponderous and static. It must be hard to accept comments that challenge his years of practice. But unfortunately practice does not necessarily result in attainment.
borgilskye 8 months ago
@borgilskye I concur.
paragate 8 months ago