There just happens to be a freaky poster in my Spanish classroom with daffy duck and a caption that says "Que Quieres?". That literally translates directly to "What do you want?"
This scene more than others indicates a real power diffierence between the Vorlons and the Shadows; not only do the Vorlons appear to have superior technology, but they also had a stronger support network with the younger races. It is easy to see why the Shadows always lost.
@ScutigeraColeoptrata well did the shadows lose though. I mean 1) they wanted to shake things up and then go back into hiding and 2) were they even in the ships that were getting destoryed or were they just the telepaths the ones running the ship. I never could figure that out. We know that the vorlons were actually in their ships but what about the shadows. I dont know. Great series though.
@pazios2002 No, they're not. The techno-mage trilogy sheds some light on this. The shadow ships are entirely run by a single being hooked up to the ship via the shadow implants.
@ScutigeraColeoptrata They also genetically rigged various races to respond favorably to them while being repulsed by the Shadows PLUS the Shadows kept starting wars between the younger races, getting innocent people killed and basically tricking them which any race of people doesn't take kindly too. Of course, the Vorlons lied to the younger races too but were better at hiding it.
The Vorlons and Shadows are about equal in technology, perhaps the Shadows being slightly better. (Look for example at their Planetkiller. A selfsustaining cloud that feeds of planets it destroys and can trap and take out enemy fleets with its missiles)
The Shadows were one of the eldest of the First Ones while the Vorlons where one of the youngest. They were probably pretty close in evoluton. Any differences are probably more because of their ideologies.
@RockyH2 I don't know. In addition to this, the Shadows on Centauri Prime seemed to consider it a foregone conclusion that they could do nothing to stop the Vorlon Planet Killer. The other First Ones seemed to also consider the Vorlons the more dangerous of the two, since they targeted them first.
Still, the Shadow Planet Killer might be the more frightening weapon of the two. Even though it can't be used in a ship battle, it seems difficult/mpossible to stop a Death Cloud once activiated.
Yeah, you're right about Centauri Prime as well as with the Vorlons at Corianna 6. (Vorlon Planet Killer)
Personally I feel Vorlon/Shadow technologies developed along the lines of their respective ideologies and that the design choices they made were based around their views/convictions. (Orderly/Balanced vs Chaotic/Erratic)
IMHO the Vorlons seem to go for quality (powerful individual ships) while the Shadows seem to go for quantity (superior numbers)
When Lorien told Sheridan that the Shadows were able to hurt Kosh because they are alike (first one's) but for him it would be much more difficult, then to dicover it took the entire power of the stations fusion reactor and security forces to just pop the encounter suit and couldn't really touch the vorlon itself until Sheridan let go of what remained of Kosh with alittle of Lorien existence to go fight it. So how the hell did Londo Mollari waste the two Shadows escorting Mr Morden so easily?
@saberstore Maybe because when the palace guards opened fire the shadows were cloaked and had their shields dow... sorry wrong franchise :P Good question tho m8.
Do you know what I find interesting? The fact that in star trek, they go all over the univerese to find new life forms and barely find any. And then... here's Babylon 5, a station that has more new aliens walking onboard everyday... Poor Kirk...
I really liked the series, but the capricious nature of syndication (days, scheduling, channels) kept me from seeing a lot of it. As I'm looking at the ships, I find it interesting that it looks like a battle between spiders and squids (shapes of ships). I doubt that means much, but...
You know, this would have been more believable if the Vorlons had taken some damage here. This shows the Shadows getting beaten the crap out of. The Shadows are far more powerful than this. Even surprised and out gunned like this, they should have been able to take a few Vorlons with them.
"Even surprised and out gunned like this, they should have been able to take a few Vorlons with them."
The Vorlon ships are much, much more powerful than the Shadow ones. They could have won this with two or three smaller ones alone. The problem is that they have way too few ships for waging a whole war.
i remember watching this as a teenager first time around and it still gives me shivers. epic battle and fantastic music gives you the sense of two ancient powers going head to head. B5 at its best.
In all of B5 we only got to see a Vorlon battleship fire twice, both in Deathwalker. I am not sure why that is; we got to see them warming up to fire a couple of other times but never got to see the beam. In the end we didn't learn much about the class at all.
This has got to be the best written Sci-Fi series in the history of mankind. I watch it start to finish at least once every 5-6 years and every single time it grips me like nothing else! Well don sir, very well done!
babylon 5 is fucking hype. And its alot like the real world you see the vorlons as gods and im sure that the gods (aliens) will return to earth one day as well
For some reason I gotta say that those special effect look so god damn good for the time they were made in. And that for at tv series. I mean heck, They don't even look bad for today, seeing how cheap the tv shows seem to get on that part.
Cool Thing about the Shadows is that Their ships Run on Telepaths LOL so they dont die if the ship gets destroyed....they are pre programed to follow instructions. Vs the Vorlons who are usually in their ships. But I believe The Shadows Are better... they are just misunderstood while the Vorlons play God and trick races to believe they are light
One thing that struck me about this series was how the Shadow ships were genuinely frightening. You pray to god it flies past you and doesn't turn around, because if it sets its sight on you it will never stop and its wretched scream will be the last thing you experience. The shadows in general are one of my favourite races of any sci-fi, as are they Vorlons. The whole discipline and order vs chaos question was enthralling.
I think the shadows where done extremely well yes. They where slowly build up as near-invincible, but not totally invincible villains (like how a few narn ships did cause some minor damage to a shadow ship early on.) And gradually they discovered ways to fight them (by using telepaths), and then it turned out there was a bit more to them then what met the eye and the Vorlons turned out to be far from benevolent too. It was just very well done.
Now I do actually think that there wasn't quite EQUIVALENCE between the Vorlons and Shadows. (Although both races where equally fanatic, the Shadows are definitely the nastier of the two if you ask me. (And Original Kosh seemed to be genuinely well-intentioned. (Kosh 2 on the other hand...) It's just the Vorlons still turned out to be dangerous bad guys, rather then the enigmatic helpers they seemed to be at first. And that was a great twist!
You make a very good point. But personally I feel the Vorlons were just as bad as the Shadows. The only difference was that the Vorlons had an interest in being seen as the good guys.
When I first saw the Vorlons wiping out a planet and killing millions of people I really felt shocked and actually even betrayed.
But yeah, Kosh was a great guy, and he really cared for the younger races. But I do think a majority of the other Vorlons did not feel the same way.
humans was the only race who "assimilate" ( the Borg also but they are in season 6 :P) the shadow technology except the Drak (and probably some others Shadow wing )so if was not Sheridan with white stars who use vorlon tecnology and the civil war in human alliance propably will be equal in Minbari/Vorlon hybrids
I definitely think they didn't see this coming. LOL. Babylon 5 is the best series ever!! And this is one of the best moments of the entire run of the show. Thanks for posting it :)
Well I liked both Koshs, the first was the "priest" of the bunch, empathic, more friendly with the humans and tried to help, the second was the warrior of the bunch, stoic, unmoving, if you notice his ship, the 2nd Kosh was the one who was the spearhead of the first Vorlon attack on the shadows, his orange ship destroyed that first shadow ship.
Interesting how both species have biologically shapped ships: shadows are crab like, vorlons are squid like.
I was trying to figure out how a massive zerg capital ship would look like, and what would be it's attack. It could look like a Gunbuster Space Monster, and attack primarily by ramming. JMS would probably like that, since he is an enthusiast ship rammer.
@Eikinkloster It's funny cause in Starcraft 2 they do have the Leviathan, a massive Zerg flyer that produces Brood Lords and can destroy a Battlecruiser in a few hits.
The folks that made the original starcraft no doubt were fans of B-5, The "minbari" home-world resembles Aiur especially the architecture, "psicore" telepaths agents are allot like the psi-opps Ghosts, The biggest clue is that the first earthforce warship to appear on screen in B5 was called the "Hyperion" in the two parter "A Voice in the Wilderness".
@Fbueller129 Actually, I have watched B5 endlessly. The truth is that Sheridan wipes out Shadow vessels with outrageous so-called "luck". There was the absurd hyperspace gambit and the jupiter gambit, for example, and at the end, shadow vessels get ever more easily whacked. If Straczynski had had any guts, he should have potrayed the Shadows as being far more powerful than humans - they were, after all, supposed to be many millions of years ahead of humans in technology.
Not to thow the sword, but if You had watch all five seasons, You would notice the Humans on B5 Universe were the atleast advance race among the five major races.. It's even mention in the first & second season, that most of their current technology came from the Centauri. Even in the tv movies shown about B5 Universe, the Humans are protrayed as the least advance race just right behind the Narns. In the First Babylon 5 movie, they are buying weapons from the Narns.
@WarshipAngelus That was during the Earth-Minbari war. we advanced greatly after that. At the time the series began, out of the younger races the Minbari was number 1, the Centauri number 2, humans number 3, and the Narns number 4. I can also point out that we defeated the Dilgar, while the Narn could not. By the end, with construction of the new ships, we surpassed the Centauri and were well on our way to becoming the strongest of the young races
@DanPhantom89 The Dilgar was on the same tech level as Earth.
The Humans on Babylon 5 never surpassed the Centauri nor the Minbari.. (During the course of 1-4 seasons.)
At the start of Season 5, Earth demaned the Minbari and Centauri and some of the other lesser known aliens races for equal technology to join the League. Which would put Humans atleast about three hundreth years around the Centauri who where already pretty advance to begain with. Which would put as number 3.
@Fbueller129 As for humans, they end up at the end of the series being in effective charge of the rangers, who are shown as being part of a new Vorlon-like organisation, manipulating the rest of the galaxy. I really dislike this humanocentric notion within Star Trek and, to a lesser extent in B5, where humans are shown as being somehow "better" than the aliens.
The Shallow vs. Vorlons? Epoch movie theme? Matrix theme? Final Fantasty theme?
Final Conflict theme? Ori theme in Star Gate? Notice how many shows in sciefi went religious? What is the secret source of these religious themes?
All from a secret website put up in 1988. Believe it not, the predicted Little Book, which would finally explain the mystery of God. I read it, guess what? IT DOES!
As impossible as it sounds, it does! Everything
Finally put in a book( God vs. Satan Untold Story)
in some ways, the Vorlons were no better than the Shadows, as was discovered at the end of the war. However I LOVED Kosh (the REAL Kosh of course!) ... he was actually nice - and as Sheradin discovered ... he got scared sometimes. He gave his life so Sheradin could get this battle going .......
@FireflyFanatic3 No, the Vorlons weren't that bad. Which is why the crew of Babylon 5 ultimately went against both the Shadows AND the Vorlons, to kick them the hell out of the galaxy.
@FireflyFanatic3 You're right, the Vorlons weren't that much worse. Which is why the crew of Babylon 5 ultimately went against both the Shadows AND the Vorlons, to kick them the hell out of the galaxy.
@FireflyFanatic3 Actually I think the Vorlons were worse because they steered the Younger Races to their side against their will though millions of years of manipulating them to view the Vorlons as the "good guys". The galaxy was mired in pointless wars under the Vorlons' watch yet when the Shadows came out of hibernation then it was all "we got to stop this little wars and focus on the real enemy". And let's not forget who used planet killers first.
@Fbueller129 well maybe ... but ultimately the Vorlons way of teaching was about order and discipline, the Shadow's was trying to evoke chaos and destroy entire civilisations in wars to see who's the better race. If we had to chose one for our society, I'd chose Vorlons any day. But yes, they were both in the wrong.
However, as much as I don't really like either the Shadows or Vorlons as a race, I can't deny that Kosh was a beautiful person, and lovely character who actually cared.
The Vorlon ships do not have shields. They are just tough.
The telepaths are nothing more than a CPU for the big capital Shadow ships. The ship still needs a Shadow creature inside. The tiny fighters may have no telepath or Shadow creature I should think. IMHO
Do Vorlon ships have shields? It looks like one of the Shadow vessels fired on the Vorlon ship and the blast was deflected by a shield. However, this is the only instance where I remember seeing any type of shielding from a Vorlon ship
I miss this series..also the shadows I think never were in the ships just a tool..remember the narn in the war a thousand years ago.. G'kar said all the Telly's vanished..the shadows used the narn than I believe anyways..plus I think the ship could was alive like the vorlon do to when they woke up the one it went crazy do to no one was in it..forgot which one it was..but not the one on mars they found. and they went into it..man I miss this series lol..have all the movies and all the series.
but i never liked how they made the shadows as the evil ones after the battle of corina 6.
i mean, there was always this feeling of contempt towards them by all the characters in the show before and after but when you think about it, they never modified us like the vorlons, they werent the first ones to use planet killers (seems to me sheriden gave them that idea by nuking their city) and at least they didnt pretended like the vorlons.
remember that it was the vorlons who tried to destroy ~
~ corina 6 and centuri prime with billions of people, not the shadows. the shadows even tried, to an extent, to talk with sheriden.
its not like i am saying they are the good guys, because human good and evil are irrelevent here. what they did was in their eyes, for the good of the younger races. but that doesnt make them worse than the vorlons.
i had those hopes that one day they would return and beat the crap out of the drakh for using their stuff like that.
I've just realised why the Vorlon fleet was able to kick that Shadow fleet's collective arse - The Vorlons are telepaths. I'd always been puzzled why it was such a one sided battle until this point. Till I remember that and the fact Shadow vessels were susceptable to telepathic influence.
@ScreamingTc I never thought of that, I always thought it was because the Vorlons are more advanced than they let on (to put the "younger races" at ease), but know you think about the whole telepath makes far more sense, but I also thought it odd that the Shadows would leave such a terrible weakness unaddressed.
@sjgambrill It did seem that the Vorlons where a bit more advanced than the shadows, or perhaps the Shadows where just constantly rebuilding their civilization because of their war= evolution philosophy and so their resources where spread thin!
@ScreamingTc It wasn't the ships that were vulnerable to telepathic attack. It was the people inside the ships. Remember that telepath they awakened and set loose on that Omega Class Destroyer? She said "The machine says 'Kill' (the Psi Corp badge). I cannot hear the machine!"
I think it's because the Shadows started using telepaths from the younger races as CPUs that they inherited this weakness.
@sunnchilde I know the ship uses a living sentient creatures as it's CPU, but it doesn't make my point any less valid. The Shadows never seemingly melded with the ships themselves, so most if not all of them ships would have been piloted by beings who were.
What really burned me up about babylon5 is that they only showed a Vorlon Drednaught firing once in seasons 1-4. They never showed the Vorlon Planet Killer firing, just charging up. How the hell could anyone leave that out?!
"It blows up planets, but we will never show it to you." LOL why?
This fight was monumental. Two titans fighting each other directly! This hasn't happened since the last great war 10,000 years ago. This changes everything they had agree upon for the rules of engagement. No more guardians. No more shepherds, gently nudging and advising from the sidelines. Now they are enemies. I don't think most fans realize how catastrophic this was. Every rule is changed now. Now they're at war. Mommy and Daddy. And now they're pissed at each other. Now there's blood.
@Larrsify The 60km ship was a Drakh mother ship. It was unshielded. Starwars ships use powerful shields and extremely heavy armor. A Super Star Destroyer is packing thousands of multi-gigaton lasers. This is why I said "I don't know who would win really." It depends of who fires first I guess.
its like comparing the usa to china, usa prefer to let things happen and china prefer to control things to happen. 2 diff theories....who will win? i say USA..becuz people hate China
@onewizzard People sure don't hate China when they're drunk, starving, and want food delivered. :) 'Yesh gimmie a combo plate, ummmm, #A6. No wait, I hate crab rangoons....'
@DevSodDribble what are you talking about people being drunk? I just hate how Chinese toys have lead in them and how they kill people who speak out against government. By the way, I just bought a Droid and it is sweet. Much better than my old iPhone.
@onewizzard That was a joke about drunk people ordering chinese food. I don't know a thing about Iphones or Droid phones. I miss the days when a phone hung in your kitchen and you dialed the numbers rotary style.
to make things simple.....shadows are are the part of the universe the wants to expand survival of the fitteset, vorlons want to expand with order (this is the ageless ? of chaos theory vs org theory)
B5 is one of the best even without the battle scenes. What was the size of these ships? I knew the Vorlon "Planet Killer" was miles across(perhaps as big as a Moon? I also like the Robotech series. I wonder could they (Vorlons or Shadows) defeat the Zentraedi or Invid? ( their [Zentraedi] ships were several miles each which contained literally thousands of Battle pods and Loids) According to the paperback; by Jack McKinney; Breetai's ship alone was 9 miles long!
@Rcoxx4u The Vorlon Planet Killers were about 3-4 miles across with the Crusier being about 1km in length. The Shadow Cloud could encompass a Planet so that'd be the biggest "ship" in B5
this scene has to be 1 of the best in all of the seasons, for ages i wanted to see a direct battle between these 2 powers, but 1 thing im still not sure of, i know the vorlons and shadows were 2 of the first one races, but was 1 ultimatley stronger then the other, i ask this because in 1 of the seasons the centauri guards at the royal court take out 2 shadow creatures, while to kill the first kosh it took several shadows, and it took power from b5, plus lorien to kill the second kosh.
@jeffers1975 The Shadows still have physical bodies whereas the Vorlons are Being's of Light and Energy so physical damage, certainly that which the younger races can dish out, will more than likely mean less to a Vorlon than a Shadow (Lorien mentioned the only reason the Shadows killed Kosh so easily was becasue they were both First Ones) but the best description is probably that they're two sides of the same coin and thus neither side is stronger than the other in the grand scheme of things
lots of borrowing from Lord of the Rings, for example Z'ha'dum sounds a little like Kazad-dum , the realm of the dwarves? Sheridan's apparent death and resurrection rather similar to that of Gandalf's in Khazad-dum in LOTR.
Also the Menbari were rather like Tolkien's elves, and the courtship and marriage of Delen and Sheridan like that of Beren and Luthien or Arwen and Aragorn.
I have no problem with one fantasy creator borrowing from another, just noted.
@stephenhayesuk I think JMS has acknowledged that LotR is one of his inspirations. It's plain to see, for instance the Ranger mantra as spoken by Marcus: "We are Rangers. We walk in the dark places no others will enter. We stand on the bridge and no one may pass. We live for the one, we die for the one."
I loved the way that Earth was just just a average power rather than being the beef cake of the galaxy. The episode severed dreams was a stand out episode and this clip from Interludes and Examinations added to the great script. Shame this episode was followed by the war without end two parter what in my eyes was probably the 1st major mistake by the producers of this under rated sci fi tv legend.
@danielqmul I always view Babylon 5 as being a "pre-Federation" type show. Earth was a small upstart power, much younger than the existing, but it was from Earth that the leader and inspiration for the Interstellar Alliance (Federation) came from
.
Earth brought order to chaos, and cooperation under a single interstellar government, in order to end the constant warfare. That was true in both B5 and Star Trek
Straczynski's obvious bias in favour of the Vorlons weakened the story as did his attempts to show the Shadows as weak vessels easily defeated by the White Star. If he'd had the guts, he could have made the aliens far more deadly(and therefore more interesting), perhaps destroying the Earth, whereas he did the old, tired thing of demonstrating the supposed superiority of all humans over aliens
@Loki0115 I seriously wonder if you've ever really watched the show. The Shadows were never portrayed as weak. The White Stars, as advanced as they were, still had a hard time bringing down Shadow vessels. Heck the Shadow vessels ate Minbari cruisers, one of the most feared ships up to that point, for breakfast. Humans weren't portrayed as superior but rather they were somewhere under the Centauri and slightly ahead of the Narns in terms of galactic position.
Some say the Shadows represented a smaller force. I count one Vorlon capital ship plus support ships and fighters against four Shadow capital ships and fighters. I only claim a technological advantage on the side of the Vorlons. The Vorlons obviously respected the might of the Shadows or they would have engaged them directly.
The Vorlons are obviously more powerful but the Shadows are less inhibited...Raw force verses raw agression...sounds like the Saints verses the Vikings...The Allies vs the Axis...etc
In this case, the Vorlons also ambushed a relatively small fleet of Shadow vessels and thus had a major tactical advantage.
If the Vorlons were so superior, why would they need to recruit other races to do their will? They could have steamrolled the Shadows into oblivion through sheer force (and I doubt they would have felt it unjustified, in that it would eliminate the chaos Vorlons abhor so much).
Their conflict was idological. It was mostly to show who's ideas were superior using the "lesser" races as pawns. Both sides viewed themselves as right and even helpful. By taking direct action against each other all the gloves come off and instead of a proxy war you have mass exterminations.
@HaystackCaldoon Wasnt that explained by Sheridan when he returned from the home world of the shadows after his sucidal attack? I thought it was to with the two oposing powers wanting to prove that there way was the right way. Sheridan also commented that the Vorlons had the power to destroy the shadows but pretended they did not.
Yes Into the Fire was the episode when I recall Sheridan saying that. Also Londo Mollari in the same episode told Morden that he was afraid and so were the Shadows about the Vorlon Planet killers.
I don't think it had much to do with pretending that they didn't have the power to destroy Z'ha'dum as it was that it was against the rules of engagement. It might also have had something to do with the fact that Lorien was living there and destroying the planet thus killing him could have brought the collective wrath of all the other First Ones down on the Vorlons.
Some state that the Vorlons are not vulnerable to telepaths. This is false, when Lita is remember the Vorlons first encounter with the Third Space aliens she states that many Vorlons fell subject to the telepathic control of those aliens and the Third Space race almost destroyed the Vorlon.
I would have to disagree that the Vorlon are superior to the Shadows. Just the opposite side of the same coin. One being chaos the other order. There are merits to both races but in a head to head battle would be oblivion for both of these races. One also forgets each races minions and their contribution to both races. Or that who knows where the other first ones would have fell during such a conflict. Or the fact the Third Space race already almost wiped the floor with the Vorlons.
so good chapter all the power of 2 of the old formidable First,the Vorlon and the shadows,the attack of the heavy cruiser of Vorlon complete life vessel impressive..........
This episode was a wonderful and terrible surprise from start to finish. I had begun to wonder if we would ever see the Vorlons and the Shadows fight face-to-face. It is quite obvious from the fight that the Vorlons were technologically superior to the Shadows, only limited by their numbers. Thanks for posting this.
I don't think it can really be said that the Vorlons were technologically superior, considering some of the stuff the Shadows showed. I always thought the Shadows preferred quantity over quality.
The Vorlons are incredibly powerful, but the Shadows were ambushed here so IMHO it can't be fairly judged who is stronger based on this battle.
But I agree with your last part. ^^ Thanks to Lennier9 for posting this clip. :)
@JH24821 Personally I think the Vorlons are technologically superior for two reasons.
1. Their ships aren't susceptable to telepathic jamming like the Shadows. Hell they breed telepaths.
2. The Planet Killers. Holy shit do not screw with a Vorlon PK! Shadow PK's are impressive with the millions of nukes blowing up a planets mantle and leaving only a dead husk, but Vorlon ones take out the ENTIRE FUCKING PLANET IN ONE SHOT!!!
Good points, personally I think they were both around the same level, just different.
1. Vorlon ships aren't susceptible to telepaths, true. But as far as I know they still need to pilot their capital ships. Shadows use others to pilot their ships and stay out of the fight.
2. Shadow vessels like Battlecrabs have superior mobility to Vorlon Dreadnoughts. They can turn and dive in an instant, they can "cloak" and leave fast.
3. Shadow Planet killers can also destroy entire enemy fleets.
Shadows Killers also produce their own missile, their like a mobile factory, using absorbed resources from destroyed planets to sustain and feed themselves.
Both Vorlons and Shadows are very impressive, they've just taken a different route with technology. (Vorlons: orderly and efficient. Shadows: chaotic and destructive)
Just for the record, which episode of Babylon 5 concluded with Lyta's warning about the consequences of direct Vorlon- vs.- Shadow conflict spreading and escalating?
I think she said something to the tune of "It won't matter who wins because there won't be a living soul within 10,000 light years to care."
Just a thought on the Vorlons pwning the Shadows - the loss of a battlecrab didn't really harm the shadows because it would mean the death of an enslaved member of a younger race. The destruction of a Vorlon ship would lead to the death of a Vorlon. Ergo in a battle of attrition the Shadows would ultimately come out on tops.
The vorlon ships have their own very high artificial intelligence. I think that in the whole battle not one single vorlon took his part, but the ships hunted the shadows down like dogs.
But at the end of the day the Vorlons still travelled in their ships, and there's no indication that they otherwise did so during battle. You might argue that the fighters were run on AI, but the bigger ships? I don't think so.
The shadows should have had better writers, then they would have won.
eliteblast 3 days ago
Octopuses versus Crabs?
Foxstab 2 weeks ago
Can't wait to rewatch this. Still in the middle of season 3. Man, those space battles.
WeissesGeschoepf 2 weeks ago
There just happens to be a freaky poster in my Spanish classroom with daffy duck and a caption that says "Que Quieres?". That literally translates directly to "What do you want?"
name887 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Pour les amoureux de Babylon 5, il existe un jeu par navigateur en tour par tour gratuit, Babylon 5 le jeu en ligne sur skyvador com/pbem
skyvador 3 months ago
This scene more than others indicates a real power diffierence between the Vorlons and the Shadows; not only do the Vorlons appear to have superior technology, but they also had a stronger support network with the younger races. It is easy to see why the Shadows always lost.
ScutigeraColeoptrata 4 months ago
@ScutigeraColeoptrata well did the shadows lose though. I mean 1) they wanted to shake things up and then go back into hiding and 2) were they even in the ships that were getting destoryed or were they just the telepaths the ones running the ship. I never could figure that out. We know that the vorlons were actually in their ships but what about the shadows. I dont know. Great series though.
pazios2002 4 months ago
@pazios2002 No, they're not. The techno-mage trilogy sheds some light on this. The shadow ships are entirely run by a single being hooked up to the ship via the shadow implants.
name887 3 months ago
@ScutigeraColeoptrata They also genetically rigged various races to respond favorably to them while being repulsed by the Shadows PLUS the Shadows kept starting wars between the younger races, getting innocent people killed and basically tricking them which any race of people doesn't take kindly too. Of course, the Vorlons lied to the younger races too but were better at hiding it.
girlgarde 4 months ago
@ScutigeraColeoptrata
The Vorlons and Shadows are about equal in technology, perhaps the Shadows being slightly better. (Look for example at their Planetkiller. A selfsustaining cloud that feeds of planets it destroys and can trap and take out enemy fleets with its missiles)
The Shadows were one of the eldest of the First Ones while the Vorlons where one of the youngest. They were probably pretty close in evoluton. Any differences are probably more because of their ideologies.
RockyH2 4 months ago
@RockyH2 I don't know. In addition to this, the Shadows on Centauri Prime seemed to consider it a foregone conclusion that they could do nothing to stop the Vorlon Planet Killer. The other First Ones seemed to also consider the Vorlons the more dangerous of the two, since they targeted them first.
Still, the Shadow Planet Killer might be the more frightening weapon of the two. Even though it can't be used in a ship battle, it seems difficult/mpossible to stop a Death Cloud once activiated.
ScutigeraColeoptrata 3 months ago
@ScutigeraColeoptrata
Yeah, you're right about Centauri Prime as well as with the Vorlons at Corianna 6. (Vorlon Planet Killer)
Personally I feel Vorlon/Shadow technologies developed along the lines of their respective ideologies and that the design choices they made were based around their views/convictions. (Orderly/Balanced vs Chaotic/Erratic)
IMHO the Vorlons seem to go for quality (powerful individual ships) while the Shadows seem to go for quantity (superior numbers)
RockyH2 3 months ago
When Lorien told Sheridan that the Shadows were able to hurt Kosh because they are alike (first one's) but for him it would be much more difficult, then to dicover it took the entire power of the stations fusion reactor and security forces to just pop the encounter suit and couldn't really touch the vorlon itself until Sheridan let go of what remained of Kosh with alittle of Lorien existence to go fight it. So how the hell did Londo Mollari waste the two Shadows escorting Mr Morden so easily?
saberstore 5 months ago
@saberstore He didn't call them. They were wounded and had to retreat, but they weren't killed.
DanPhantom89 4 months ago
@saberstore Maybe because when the palace guards opened fire the shadows were cloaked and had their shields dow... sorry wrong franchise :P Good question tho m8.
Quincy111 3 weeks ago
Do you know what I find interesting? The fact that in star trek, they go all over the univerese to find new life forms and barely find any. And then... here's Babylon 5, a station that has more new aliens walking onboard everyday... Poor Kirk...
Jonnyboyproductions6 5 months ago 2
I really liked the series, but the capricious nature of syndication (days, scheduling, channels) kept me from seeing a lot of it. As I'm looking at the ships, I find it interesting that it looks like a battle between spiders and squids (shapes of ships). I doubt that means much, but...
jalowitz 5 months ago
@jalowitz and the mimbari battle ships looked like fish to me. LOL
pazios2002 4 months ago
I remember when I first saw this episode. Gave me goosebumps. Loved the Vorlons.
sandroace 5 months ago
This makes me want to watch the series all over again.
Dolphination 5 months ago
You know, this would have been more believable if the Vorlons had taken some damage here. This shows the Shadows getting beaten the crap out of. The Shadows are far more powerful than this. Even surprised and out gunned like this, they should have been able to take a few Vorlons with them.
sunnchilde 6 months ago
@sunnchilde
"Even surprised and out gunned like this, they should have been able to take a few Vorlons with them."
The Vorlon ships are much, much more powerful than the Shadow ones. They could have won this with two or three smaller ones alone. The problem is that they have way too few ships for waging a whole war.
MomoTheBellyDancer 4 months ago
Such an amazing scene... why so low res?
BigDiamondCutter 7 months ago
Kosh payed dearly for this.
rageagaintstheNWO 7 months ago 3
Recorded using a toothbrush
moomoo1337 8 months ago 3
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who are you and want do you want
TOMHBOMB1963 8 months ago
Spiders Vs. Squids.
MordyAndKittyNetwork 8 months ago 14
@MordyAndKittyNetwork
I'd say sea urchins vs. squids, but close enough.
TheSkunkCat 1 month ago
Thirdspace aliens and The Hand are more powerful still. They make the Vorlons and Shadows look like the Drazi.
kitchenaut 9 months ago
i remember watching this as a teenager first time around and it still gives me shivers. epic battle and fantastic music gives you the sense of two ancient powers going head to head. B5 at its best.
AngellisAOC 9 months ago
This is like being 3 years old and watching your parents fight.
sunnchilde 9 months ago
In all of B5 we only got to see a Vorlon battleship fire twice, both in Deathwalker. I am not sure why that is; we got to see them warming up to fire a couple of other times but never got to see the beam. In the end we didn't learn much about the class at all.
WUZLE 10 months ago
This has got to be the best written Sci-Fi series in the history of mankind. I watch it start to finish at least once every 5-6 years and every single time it grips me like nothing else! Well don sir, very well done!
HertzBlut 10 months ago
babylon 5 is fucking hype. And its alot like the real world you see the vorlons as gods and im sure that the gods (aliens) will return to earth one day as well
icanadian18 10 months ago
As a "trekkie", i have to agree. Kosh was the best haracter ...brings tears to my eyes when he died...
If i only could be there , my life vould be his... And as an Estonian i vouldnt give up!
TheCheopps 11 months ago 2
Typically awesome battle scene from babylon 5. I loved the way shadow vessels "scream" as they pass by
FeenixUK 11 months ago
Bought Babylon 5 "Complete Universe"-set. 44 DVDs of Babylon 5 for 75€. I think that was a good deal.
kimnice 11 months ago
For some reason I gotta say that those special effect look so god damn good for the time they were made in. And that for at tv series. I mean heck, They don't even look bad for today, seeing how cheap the tv shows seem to get on that part.
TheWinterNights 11 months ago
@TheWinterNights Dude B5 changed the game. Video Toaster was LITERALLY worked on by Wesley Crusher lol
dinosaurssayni 5 months ago
Cool Thing about the Shadows is that Their ships Run on Telepaths LOL so they dont die if the ship gets destroyed....they are pre programed to follow instructions. Vs the Vorlons who are usually in their ships. But I believe The Shadows Are better... they are just misunderstood while the Vorlons play God and trick races to believe they are light
vigorosoPIMPJr 1 year ago
One thing that struck me about this series was how the Shadow ships were genuinely frightening. You pray to god it flies past you and doesn't turn around, because if it sets its sight on you it will never stop and its wretched scream will be the last thing you experience. The shadows in general are one of my favourite races of any sci-fi, as are they Vorlons. The whole discipline and order vs chaos question was enthralling.
ChristopherDone 1 year ago 32
@ChristopherDone
I think the shadows where done extremely well yes. They where slowly build up as near-invincible, but not totally invincible villains (like how a few narn ships did cause some minor damage to a shadow ship early on.) And gradually they discovered ways to fight them (by using telepaths), and then it turned out there was a bit more to them then what met the eye and the Vorlons turned out to be far from benevolent too. It was just very well done.
TheSkunkCat 1 month ago
@TheSkunkCat
Now I do actually think that there wasn't quite EQUIVALENCE between the Vorlons and Shadows. (Although both races where equally fanatic, the Shadows are definitely the nastier of the two if you ask me. (And Original Kosh seemed to be genuinely well-intentioned. (Kosh 2 on the other hand...) It's just the Vorlons still turned out to be dangerous bad guys, rather then the enigmatic helpers they seemed to be at first. And that was a great twist!
TheSkunkCat 1 month ago
@TheSkunkCat
You make a very good point. But personally I feel the Vorlons were just as bad as the Shadows. The only difference was that the Vorlons had an interest in being seen as the good guys.
When I first saw the Vorlons wiping out a planet and killing millions of people I really felt shocked and actually even betrayed.
But yeah, Kosh was a great guy, and he really cared for the younger races. But I do think a majority of the other Vorlons did not feel the same way.
RockyH2 1 month ago
@RockyH2 Kosh was different.
twilightzoneseinfeld 1 week ago
@ChristopherDone There's much of a The Ur-Quan Masters sense to it all.
Foxstab 2 weeks ago
@HouserGraves It's stated in Season 2 that the Vorlon vessels are also organic, and are in fact sentient.
ScreamingTc 1 year ago
humans was the only race who "assimilate" ( the Borg also but they are in season 6 :P) the shadow technology except the Drak (and probably some others Shadow wing )so if was not Sheridan with white stars who use vorlon tecnology and the civil war in human alliance propably will be equal in Minbari/Vorlon hybrids
knighttemplar6 1 year ago
Personally, I think Santa Claus is a Vorlon. How else can he get down a chimney so easily?
mjarrett1000 1 year ago 2
The shadow ships were really evil looking !
ccolimon 1 year ago 2
there is no sound is space
ccolimon 1 year ago
@ccolimon I agree. Although the Shadow 'Scream' was telepathic not vocal. But the vorlon and shadow energy fire I agree shouldn't have had sound.
mkohlhorst 1 year ago
I definitely think they didn't see this coming. LOL. Babylon 5 is the best series ever!! And this is one of the best moments of the entire run of the show. Thanks for posting it :)
BattlestarDamocles 1 year ago 2
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The school bully just got his ass kicked.
Longs81 1 year ago
Shadow 4 Life
DBCOOPER888 1 year ago
I see a mistake in it :o
Before the attack the shadow capships are flying with their 'tentacels' on the backside, At 0:23 they're on the frontside :p
Still, great scene it is :p
Soldierlozer 1 year ago
giants in the playground.
kaosruin 1 year ago
Well I liked both Koshs, the first was the "priest" of the bunch, empathic, more friendly with the humans and tried to help, the second was the warrior of the bunch, stoic, unmoving, if you notice his ship, the 2nd Kosh was the one who was the spearhead of the first Vorlon attack on the shadows, his orange ship destroyed that first shadow ship.
eolsunder 1 year ago
@eolsunder
The 2nd Vorlon was a female named AlKesh, Atleast according to JMS..
The Vorlon's are naturally very cryptic and secretive, They don't like to reveal their names and get on familiar terms with outsiders..
Obasiliasfilosofos 1 year ago
@Obasiliasfilosofos yes and she was kushs sister and alot more xenopohbic and aragont then he was
3L24 1 year ago
Always loved the music for this scene...the drums give the Vorlans a badass feel! :)
TheBlackSpider82 1 year ago 2
Interesting how both species have biologically shapped ships: shadows are crab like, vorlons are squid like.
I was trying to figure out how a massive zerg capital ship would look like, and what would be it's attack. It could look like a Gunbuster Space Monster, and attack primarily by ramming. JMS would probably like that, since he is an enthusiast ship rammer.
Eikinkloster 1 year ago
@Eikinkloster It's funny cause in Starcraft 2 they do have the Leviathan, a massive Zerg flyer that produces Brood Lords and can destroy a Battlecruiser in a few hits.
Fbueller129 1 year ago
@Fbueller129 nooooo!!! spoileeeeeeeeer!!!
nah, I stopped playing a while ago, this might motivate me into going back. Cool!
Eikinkloster 1 year ago
@Fbueller129
The folks that made the original starcraft no doubt were fans of B-5, The "minbari" home-world resembles Aiur especially the architecture, "psicore" telepaths agents are allot like the psi-opps Ghosts, The biggest clue is that the first earthforce warship to appear on screen in B5 was called the "Hyperion" in the two parter "A Voice in the Wilderness".
The more obvious stuff is lifted from "Aliens"
Obasiliasfilosofos 1 year ago
@Fbueller129 Actually, I have watched B5 endlessly. The truth is that Sheridan wipes out Shadow vessels with outrageous so-called "luck". There was the absurd hyperspace gambit and the jupiter gambit, for example, and at the end, shadow vessels get ever more easily whacked. If Straczynski had had any guts, he should have potrayed the Shadows as being far more powerful than humans - they were, after all, supposed to be many millions of years ahead of humans in technology.
Loki0115 1 year ago
@Loki0115
Not to thow the sword, but if You had watch all five seasons, You would notice the Humans on B5 Universe were the atleast advance race among the five major races.. It's even mention in the first & second season, that most of their current technology came from the Centauri. Even in the tv movies shown about B5 Universe, the Humans are protrayed as the least advance race just right behind the Narns. In the First Babylon 5 movie, they are buying weapons from the Narns.
WarshipAngelus 1 year ago
@WarshipAngelus That was during the Earth-Minbari war. we advanced greatly after that. At the time the series began, out of the younger races the Minbari was number 1, the Centauri number 2, humans number 3, and the Narns number 4. I can also point out that we defeated the Dilgar, while the Narn could not. By the end, with construction of the new ships, we surpassed the Centauri and were well on our way to becoming the strongest of the young races
DanPhantom89 1 year ago
@DanPhantom89 The Dilgar was on the same tech level as Earth.
The Humans on Babylon 5 never surpassed the Centauri nor the Minbari.. (During the course of 1-4 seasons.)
At the start of Season 5, Earth demaned the Minbari and Centauri and some of the other lesser known aliens races for equal technology to join the League. Which would put Humans atleast about three hundreth years around the Centauri who where already pretty advance to begain with. Which would put as number 3.
WarshipAngelus 1 year ago
@Fbueller129 As for humans, they end up at the end of the series being in effective charge of the rangers, who are shown as being part of a new Vorlon-like organisation, manipulating the rest of the galaxy. I really dislike this humanocentric notion within Star Trek and, to a lesser extent in B5, where humans are shown as being somehow "better" than the aliens.
Loki0115 1 year ago
The Shallow vs. Vorlons? Epoch movie theme? Matrix theme? Final Fantasty theme?
Final Conflict theme? Ori theme in Star Gate? Notice how many shows in sciefi went religious? What is the secret source of these religious themes?
All from a secret website put up in 1988. Believe it not, the predicted Little Book, which would finally explain the mystery of God. I read it, guess what? IT DOES!
As impossible as it sounds, it does! Everything
Finally put in a book( God vs. Satan Untold Story)
samchaseblack 1 year ago
in some ways, the Vorlons were no better than the Shadows, as was discovered at the end of the war. However I LOVED Kosh (the REAL Kosh of course!) ... he was actually nice - and as Sheradin discovered ... he got scared sometimes. He gave his life so Sheradin could get this battle going .......
RIP Kosh!
FireflyFanatic3 1 year ago 52
@FireflyFanatic3 "He gave his life so Sheradin could get this battle going"
Not all of it ;)
chrisktaylor 1 year ago
@chrisktaylor lol yeah ... but most of it. No Vorlon has died in thousands of years, like they said.
I think it's just as sweet he gave a piece of himself to Sheradin! :P
FireflyFanatic3 1 year ago
@FireflyFanatic3 One of my favourite quotes from B5 has to be Lorien to Sheridan, "Did you know you have a Vorlon inside you?"
chrisktaylor 1 year ago
@FireflyFanatic3 R.I.P
LunicInformer 1 year ago
@FireflyFanatic3 No, the Vorlons weren't that bad. Which is why the crew of Babylon 5 ultimately went against both the Shadows AND the Vorlons, to kick them the hell out of the galaxy.
DBCOOPER888 1 year ago
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@FireflyFanatic3 You're right, the Vorlons weren't that much worse. Which is why the crew of Babylon 5 ultimately went against both the Shadows AND the Vorlons, to kick them the hell out of the galaxy.
DBCOOPER888 1 year ago
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Aivottaja 1 year ago
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Aivottaja 1 year ago
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@FireflyFanatic3
That's exactly why I liked the Shadows vs. Vorlons war; neither was "good" or "evil". Both were equally callous, destructive and selfish.
Aivottaja 1 year ago
@FireflyFanatic3 he's not dead.
Peniscommander123 1 year ago
@FireflyFanatic3 Actually I think the Vorlons were worse because they steered the Younger Races to their side against their will though millions of years of manipulating them to view the Vorlons as the "good guys". The galaxy was mired in pointless wars under the Vorlons' watch yet when the Shadows came out of hibernation then it was all "we got to stop this little wars and focus on the real enemy". And let's not forget who used planet killers first.
Fbueller129 8 months ago
@Fbueller129 well maybe ... but ultimately the Vorlons way of teaching was about order and discipline, the Shadow's was trying to evoke chaos and destroy entire civilisations in wars to see who's the better race. If we had to chose one for our society, I'd chose Vorlons any day. But yes, they were both in the wrong.
However, as much as I don't really like either the Shadows or Vorlons as a race, I can't deny that Kosh was a beautiful person, and lovely character who actually cared.
FireflyFanatic3 8 months ago
@FireflyFanatic3 ur completely right both sides wanted to advance their own agendas but in the vorlons defense they had the most badass ships
spyderc85 7 months ago
love love love this fight scene. never get tired of it. Christopher Franke was probably the best tv soundtrack composer ever
dsrviola 1 year ago
The Vorlon ships do not have shields. They are just tough.
The telepaths are nothing more than a CPU for the big capital Shadow ships. The ship still needs a Shadow creature inside. The tiny fighters may have no telepath or Shadow creature I should think. IMHO
bootsdog3 1 year ago
@bootsdog3 the vorlon ships have an energy absorbing layer over there hull wich make them realy tough
LunicInformer 1 year ago
Do Vorlon ships have shields? It looks like one of the Shadow vessels fired on the Vorlon ship and the blast was deflected by a shield. However, this is the only instance where I remember seeing any type of shielding from a Vorlon ship
onyx081 1 year ago
I so love the ferocity of this action.
Anacronian 1 year ago
The sound of the Shadow ships is awesome, im sure they used the sound of a screaming woman as the key sound very very unsettling.
RustiSwordz 1 year ago
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"Who are YOU?!?" "What do YOU want?!?"
scarred2112 1 year ago
I miss this series..also the shadows I think never were in the ships just a tool..remember the narn in the war a thousand years ago.. G'kar said all the Telly's vanished..the shadows used the narn than I believe anyways..plus I think the ship could was alive like the vorlon do to when they woke up the one it went crazy do to no one was in it..forgot which one it was..but not the one on mars they found. and they went into it..man I miss this series lol..have all the movies and all the series.
Marcuis62 1 year ago
Vorlon 4ever!!!!
Escara1 1 year ago
but i never liked how they made the shadows as the evil ones after the battle of corina 6.
i mean, there was always this feeling of contempt towards them by all the characters in the show before and after but when you think about it, they never modified us like the vorlons, they werent the first ones to use planet killers (seems to me sheriden gave them that idea by nuking their city) and at least they didnt pretended like the vorlons.
remember that it was the vorlons who tried to destroy ~
barak219 1 year ago
~ corina 6 and centuri prime with billions of people, not the shadows. the shadows even tried, to an extent, to talk with sheriden.
its not like i am saying they are the good guys, because human good and evil are irrelevent here. what they did was in their eyes, for the good of the younger races. but that doesnt make them worse than the vorlons.
i had those hopes that one day they would return and beat the crap out of the drakh for using their stuff like that.
barak219 1 year ago
@barak219 Wow. That's awsome, dude. I couldn't have said that better myself.
sunnchilde 1 year ago
Yeah. Protoss vs. Zerg-Cousins.^^
blacksun84 1 year ago
(Jumpgate opens, no blinking, jaw drops )THE BATTLE OF THE GODS!
TheOuterMost 1 year ago 43
@TheOuterMost, yeah that was an AWESOME BATTLE, nothing in Star Wars or even Star Trek comes close.
Wolfen443 8 months ago
I've just realised why the Vorlon fleet was able to kick that Shadow fleet's collective arse - The Vorlons are telepaths. I'd always been puzzled why it was such a one sided battle until this point. Till I remember that and the fact Shadow vessels were susceptable to telepathic influence.
ScreamingTc 1 year ago
@ScreamingTc Plus the shadows slept for a thousand years or so in that time im sure the Vorlans became even more powerful.
HK41586 1 year ago
@ScreamingTc I never thought of that, I always thought it was because the Vorlons are more advanced than they let on (to put the "younger races" at ease), but know you think about the whole telepath makes far more sense, but I also thought it odd that the Shadows would leave such a terrible weakness unaddressed.
sjgambrill 1 year ago
@sjgambrill It did seem that the Vorlons where a bit more advanced than the shadows, or perhaps the Shadows where just constantly rebuilding their civilization because of their war= evolution philosophy and so their resources where spread thin!
Ramiromasters 1 year ago
@ScreamingTc It wasn't the ships that were vulnerable to telepathic attack. It was the people inside the ships. Remember that telepath they awakened and set loose on that Omega Class Destroyer? She said "The machine says 'Kill' (the Psi Corp badge). I cannot hear the machine!"
I think it's because the Shadows started using telepaths from the younger races as CPUs that they inherited this weakness.
sunnchilde 1 year ago
@sunnchilde I know the ship uses a living sentient creatures as it's CPU, but it doesn't make my point any less valid. The Shadows never seemingly melded with the ships themselves, so most if not all of them ships would have been piloted by beings who were.
ScreamingTc 1 year ago
Yes indeed. Thx for not editing the music. Love it. One of my fav. scenes
tolskaydao 1 year ago
There is nothing better than to see a bunch of passionate nerds/geeks discussing fiction in an organized and civilized manner xD
I enjoyed reading all of your comments. You, my comrades, are the good seed of the internet.
Zanco 1 year ago
What really burned me up about babylon5 is that they only showed a Vorlon Drednaught firing once in seasons 1-4. They never showed the Vorlon Planet Killer firing, just charging up. How the hell could anyone leave that out?!
"It blows up planets, but we will never show it to you." LOL why?
QuantumNova 1 year ago
This fight was monumental. Two titans fighting each other directly! This hasn't happened since the last great war 10,000 years ago. This changes everything they had agree upon for the rules of engagement. No more guardians. No more shepherds, gently nudging and advising from the sidelines. Now they are enemies. I don't think most fans realize how catastrophic this was. Every rule is changed now. Now they're at war. Mommy and Daddy. And now they're pissed at each other. Now there's blood.
sunnchilde 1 year ago
Whoops, I did'nt know the ship it destroyed was that big. It seems it would be a short fight. My bad.
Larrsify 1 year ago
@Larrsify The 60km ship was a Drakh mother ship. It was unshielded. Starwars ships use powerful shields and extremely heavy armor. A Super Star Destroyer is packing thousands of multi-gigaton lasers. This is why I said "I don't know who would win really." It depends of who fires first I guess.
QuantumNova 1 year ago
I wonder how they would do against a super star destroyer.
Larrsify 1 year ago
@Larrsify let's see A vorlon death ray killed a 60km ship with one shot, The Super Star destroyer is 19km. I don't know who would win really.
QuantumNova 1 year ago
its like comparing the usa to china, usa prefer to let things happen and china prefer to control things to happen. 2 diff theories....who will win? i say USA..becuz people hate China
onewizzard 1 year ago
@onewizzard People sure don't hate China when they're drunk, starving, and want food delivered. :) 'Yesh gimmie a combo plate, ummmm, #A6. No wait, I hate crab rangoons....'
DevSodDribble 1 year ago
@DevSodDribble what are you talking about people being drunk? I just hate how Chinese toys have lead in them and how they kill people who speak out against government. By the way, I just bought a Droid and it is sweet. Much better than my old iPhone.
onewizzard 1 year ago
@onewizzard That was a joke about drunk people ordering chinese food. I don't know a thing about Iphones or Droid phones. I miss the days when a phone hung in your kitchen and you dialed the numbers rotary style.
DevSodDribble 1 year ago
to make things simple.....shadows are are the part of the universe the wants to expand survival of the fitteset, vorlons want to expand with order (this is the ageless ? of chaos theory vs org theory)
onewizzard 1 year ago
B5 is one of the best even without the battle scenes. What was the size of these ships? I knew the Vorlon "Planet Killer" was miles across(perhaps as big as a Moon? I also like the Robotech series. I wonder could they (Vorlons or Shadows) defeat the Zentraedi or Invid? ( their [Zentraedi] ships were several miles each which contained literally thousands of Battle pods and Loids) According to the paperback; by Jack McKinney; Breetai's ship alone was 9 miles long!
Rcoxx4u 1 year ago
@Rcoxx4u The Vorlon Planet Killers were about 3-4 miles across with the Crusier being about 1km in length. The Shadow Cloud could encompass a Planet so that'd be the biggest "ship" in B5
Boomer2k6 1 year ago
this scene has to be 1 of the best in all of the seasons, for ages i wanted to see a direct battle between these 2 powers, but 1 thing im still not sure of, i know the vorlons and shadows were 2 of the first one races, but was 1 ultimatley stronger then the other, i ask this because in 1 of the seasons the centauri guards at the royal court take out 2 shadow creatures, while to kill the first kosh it took several shadows, and it took power from b5, plus lorien to kill the second kosh.
jeffers1975 1 year ago
@jeffers1975 The Shadows still have physical bodies whereas the Vorlons are Being's of Light and Energy so physical damage, certainly that which the younger races can dish out, will more than likely mean less to a Vorlon than a Shadow (Lorien mentioned the only reason the Shadows killed Kosh so easily was becasue they were both First Ones) but the best description is probably that they're two sides of the same coin and thus neither side is stronger than the other in the grand scheme of things
Boomer2k6 1 year ago
@Boomer2k6 According to canon material not shown on TV, Shadows are also highly evolved energy beings wearing encounter suits.
Fightosaurus 1 year ago
Vorlon tabutajok )
Anymuster 1 year ago
Great scene unfortunately poor quality- i have the same scene in better quality and only with music without the sound effects check it out!
Denorius 1 year ago
The Shadows and Vorlons were in a Cold War, and just like Russia and the US never fought directly, neither did the Shadows/Vorlons
.
Instead they fought through third parties, like Narn and Centauri and Earth
.
harleykman 1 year ago
They should have ended the series when the first ones left. The last season *blew*. These battles were epic though.
ptdnet 1 year ago
I think the graphics were way ahead of their time compared to say Star Trek . Also loved the Darkness of Farscape
hoplite46 1 year ago
lots of borrowing from Lord of the Rings, for example Z'ha'dum sounds a little like Kazad-dum , the realm of the dwarves? Sheridan's apparent death and resurrection rather similar to that of Gandalf's in Khazad-dum in LOTR.
Also the Menbari were rather like Tolkien's elves, and the courtship and marriage of Delen and Sheridan like that of Beren and Luthien or Arwen and Aragorn.
I have no problem with one fantasy creator borrowing from another, just noted.
stephenhayesuk 1 year ago 2
@stephenhayesuk I think JMS has acknowledged that LotR is one of his inspirations. It's plain to see, for instance the Ranger mantra as spoken by Marcus: "We are Rangers. We walk in the dark places no others will enter. We stand on the bridge and no one may pass. We live for the one, we die for the one."
frohrstrand 1 year ago
I loved the way that Earth was just just a average power rather than being the beef cake of the galaxy. The episode severed dreams was a stand out episode and this clip from Interludes and Examinations added to the great script. Shame this episode was followed by the war without end two parter what in my eyes was probably the 1st major mistake by the producers of this under rated sci fi tv legend.
danielqmul 2 years ago
@danielqmul I always view Babylon 5 as being a "pre-Federation" type show. Earth was a small upstart power, much younger than the existing, but it was from Earth that the leader and inspiration for the Interstellar Alliance (Federation) came from
.
Earth brought order to chaos, and cooperation under a single interstellar government, in order to end the constant warfare. That was true in both B5 and Star Trek
.
harleykman 1 year ago
Straczynski's obvious bias in favour of the Vorlons weakened the story as did his attempts to show the Shadows as weak vessels easily defeated by the White Star. If he'd had the guts, he could have made the aliens far more deadly(and therefore more interesting), perhaps destroying the Earth, whereas he did the old, tired thing of demonstrating the supposed superiority of all humans over aliens
Loki0115 2 years ago
Biased in favor of the Vorlons myself, so I'm glad that fair-weather friend Sheriden finally bit it during the sho, even if 20 years later.
ulfhirtha 2 years ago
@Loki0115 I seriously wonder if you've ever really watched the show. The Shadows were never portrayed as weak. The White Stars, as advanced as they were, still had a hard time bringing down Shadow vessels. Heck the Shadow vessels ate Minbari cruisers, one of the most feared ships up to that point, for breakfast. Humans weren't portrayed as superior but rather they were somewhere under the Centauri and slightly ahead of the Narns in terms of galactic position.
Fbueller129 1 year ago
@Fbueller129
If you look at who is the most advance race with feared ships..
The Shadows had the most feared ships and were older and more advance than even the Vorlon.
Vorlon be number two.
The Minbari would be the third most advance race....
The Centauri would be the fourth.
The Narns would be fifth.
Humans be sixth.
Take the shadows out, then just keep the five major races, and the Humans would only be atleast 50 years adhead of the Narns.
WarshipAngelus 1 year ago
Babylon 5 was a far better SF TV series than the godawful Star Trek franchise. But it could have been even better.
Loki0115 2 years ago
Some say the Shadows represented a smaller force. I count one Vorlon capital ship plus support ships and fighters against four Shadow capital ships and fighters. I only claim a technological advantage on the side of the Vorlons. The Vorlons obviously respected the might of the Shadows or they would have engaged them directly.
merryprankster308 2 years ago
If I'm not mistaken, the Shadows got their revenge on the Vorlons shortly afterwards by killing Kosh!
Scifimaster92 2 years ago
The Vorlons are obviously more powerful but the Shadows are less inhibited...Raw force verses raw agression...sounds like the Saints verses the Vikings...The Allies vs the Axis...etc
mnpopeye 2 years ago
In this case, the Vorlons also ambushed a relatively small fleet of Shadow vessels and thus had a major tactical advantage.
If the Vorlons were so superior, why would they need to recruit other races to do their will? They could have steamrolled the Shadows into oblivion through sheer force (and I doubt they would have felt it unjustified, in that it would eliminate the chaos Vorlons abhor so much).
HaystackCaldoon 2 years ago
@HaystackCaldoon
indeed
aramiris 2 years ago
Their conflict was idological. It was mostly to show who's ideas were superior using the "lesser" races as pawns. Both sides viewed themselves as right and even helpful. By taking direct action against each other all the gloves come off and instead of a proxy war you have mass exterminations.
I always loved this show.
illustruscorp 2 years ago
Just what I wanted to write myself. :)
It was never about who was stronger, but who had the better ideological principles for the younger races to live by.
What makes B5 one of the strongest stories ever told on TV to this day is that nothing in it was just two dimensional, black and white.
To quote G'Kar: No one here is exactly what he appears...
Awesome.
commanderkruge 2 years ago
@HaystackCaldoon Wasnt that explained by Sheridan when he returned from the home world of the shadows after his sucidal attack? I thought it was to with the two oposing powers wanting to prove that there way was the right way. Sheridan also commented that the Vorlons had the power to destroy the shadows but pretended they did not.
danielqmul 2 years ago
That's interesting to know. When did Sheridan say that about the Vorlons having the power to defeat the Shadows? I may have missed it.
I can only remember the scene from "Into the Fire".
JH24821 2 years ago
Yes Into the Fire was the episode when I recall Sheridan saying that. Also Londo Mollari in the same episode told Morden that he was afraid and so were the Shadows about the Vorlon Planet killers.
danielqmul 2 years ago
I don't think it had much to do with pretending that they didn't have the power to destroy Z'ha'dum as it was that it was against the rules of engagement. It might also have had something to do with the fact that Lorien was living there and destroying the planet thus killing him could have brought the collective wrath of all the other First Ones down on the Vorlons.
Fbueller129 1 year ago
Some state that the Vorlons are not vulnerable to telepaths. This is false, when Lita is remember the Vorlons first encounter with the Third Space aliens she states that many Vorlons fell subject to the telepathic control of those aliens and the Third Space race almost destroyed the Vorlon.
Poleet1971 2 years ago
I would have to disagree that the Vorlon are superior to the Shadows. Just the opposite side of the same coin. One being chaos the other order. There are merits to both races but in a head to head battle would be oblivion for both of these races. One also forgets each races minions and their contribution to both races. Or that who knows where the other first ones would have fell during such a conflict. Or the fact the Third Space race already almost wiped the floor with the Vorlons.
Poleet1971 2 years ago
so good chapter all the power of 2 of the old formidable First,the Vorlon and the shadows,the attack of the heavy cruiser of Vorlon complete life vessel impressive..........
aariernest 2 years ago
This episode was a wonderful and terrible surprise from start to finish. I had begun to wonder if we would ever see the Vorlons and the Shadows fight face-to-face. It is quite obvious from the fight that the Vorlons were technologically superior to the Shadows, only limited by their numbers. Thanks for posting this.
merryprankster308 2 years ago
That was an ambush of a small shadow convoy by a whole vorlon fleet, It doesnt count.
Wraith23 2 years ago
I don't think it can really be said that the Vorlons were technologically superior, considering some of the stuff the Shadows showed. I always thought the Shadows preferred quantity over quality.
The Vorlons are incredibly powerful, but the Shadows were ambushed here so IMHO it can't be fairly judged who is stronger based on this battle.
But I agree with your last part. ^^ Thanks to Lennier9 for posting this clip. :)
JH24821 2 years ago
@JH24821 Personally I think the Vorlons are technologically superior for two reasons.
1. Their ships aren't susceptable to telepathic jamming like the Shadows. Hell they breed telepaths.
2. The Planet Killers. Holy shit do not screw with a Vorlon PK! Shadow PK's are impressive with the millions of nukes blowing up a planets mantle and leaving only a dead husk, but Vorlon ones take out the ENTIRE FUCKING PLANET IN ONE SHOT!!!
LostMercenary99 2 years ago
Good points, personally I think they were both around the same level, just different.
1. Vorlon ships aren't susceptible to telepaths, true. But as far as I know they still need to pilot their capital ships. Shadows use others to pilot their ships and stay out of the fight.
2. Shadow vessels like Battlecrabs have superior mobility to Vorlon Dreadnoughts. They can turn and dive in an instant, they can "cloak" and leave fast.
3. Shadow Planet killers can also destroy entire enemy fleets.
JH24821 2 years ago
Shadows Killers also produce their own missile, their like a mobile factory, using absorbed resources from destroyed planets to sustain and feed themselves.
Both Vorlons and Shadows are very impressive, they've just taken a different route with technology. (Vorlons: orderly and efficient. Shadows: chaotic and destructive)
JH24821 2 years ago
I remember watching this episode it was so fucking awesome watching the Shadows get their backsides handed to them.
Longs81 2 years ago
Just for the record, which episode of Babylon 5 concluded with Lyta's warning about the consequences of direct Vorlon- vs.- Shadow conflict spreading and escalating?
I think she said something to the tune of "It won't matter who wins because there won't be a living soul within 10,000 light years to care."
Or something of the sort...
NCTaikoDrumboy 2 years ago
it was 70 light years
chaliechan101 2 years ago
and it was in Falling Towards Apotheosis
chaliechan101 2 years ago
Thanks, mate.
NCTaikoDrumboy 2 years ago
Just a thought on the Vorlons pwning the Shadows - the loss of a battlecrab didn't really harm the shadows because it would mean the death of an enslaved member of a younger race. The destruction of a Vorlon ship would lead to the death of a Vorlon. Ergo in a battle of attrition the Shadows would ultimately come out on tops.
ScreamingTc 2 years ago
The vorlon ships have their own very high artificial intelligence. I think that in the whole battle not one single vorlon took his part, but the ships hunted the shadows down like dogs.
Tossek86 2 years ago
But at the end of the day the Vorlons still travelled in their ships, and there's no indication that they otherwise did so during battle. You might argue that the fighters were run on AI, but the bigger ships? I don't think so.
ScreamingTc 2 years ago