Benny Morris speaking at the Helsinki Peace Forum 25 11 2010

[jameshanley40]

Where are the question and answers? they were good.

[ngreenwald89]

Morris then reconsidered if there ever was a possibility for a two state solution, and whether the Palestinians were capable of compromise. It's also quite an unfair charge to say Morris changed his views in exchange for public acceptance. The guy's an ex-paratrooper who, as I said, served in jail as a coscientious objector, revealed some of Israel's original sins to itself, and is now practically a pariah in international academia. He's the definition of testicular fortitude.

[ngreenwald89]

Actually, Morris has been clear about what changed his political views (I'll leave it to the armchair psychologists to figure out if it has affected his academic output): the 2nd intifada. He felt that the 1st intifada (when he sat in jail for a month rather than serve) was about the occupation, and thus the Palestinians were justified in their resistance. He felt the 2nd intifada, with its deliberately murderous attacks on buses and cafes etc., was an attempt to destroy Israeli society.

[bigbossman999]

@ngreenwald89 I have a hard time believing that because if you look at the second intifida, the ratio of palestinian civillians killed to israeli's, by most conservative estimates was 8:1 and with some estimates as high as 15:1. Yes hamas targets civillians, but they ALWAYS have, even in the 80's. Regardless though everyone is entitled to change their opinion, it doesnt change the IMMENSE volume of work we have from Mr. Morris where he vehemently criticizes Israeli policy in the strongest terms

[ngreenwald89]

Care to note anything specific factually incorrect? He speaks with brutal honesty, and isn't afraid to generalize when the generalization reflects reality--and that type of speech isn't very common, and can be unnerving.

[bigbossman999]

@ngreenwald89 he's a walking contradiction, you read his previous works, he blamed Israel for the problem and zionism and how it is based on "ethnic cleansing" and "expulsion of civillians", now he's become a hardliner...thats why he doesnt do interview shows anymore because the other guests always point out his contradictions and errors of fact. He's basically become a posterchild for the neo-apartheid in the 21st century.

[alonee810]

@bigbossman999 that is true he has reformed. he used to be a hard leftist but he turned... a person can change his views. in his case he did and in fact it[as far as i know] was after a research he did for a book and materials he was exposed to...

[bigbossman999]

@alonee810 I believe in his case he did it more for acceptance in main stream israeli society, when you're in the center of power it's hard to root for a nation of essentially poor refugees who arent even your ethnicity. But w/e his views are now it doesnt erase the decades of work he produced attacking israel's policy towards palestinians and mentioning "ethnic cleansing" and other elements similar to apartheid being employed.

[alonee810]

@bigbossman999 i disagree, dont think he cares much about main stream opinion. he is a prof in uni i wouldnt describe it as "center of power"[not political power thats for sure].most of the academy community in israel r hard leftists. beside he had no problem [like u said] in the past expressing his critical opinions as harsh as they were. as a matter of fact what he says now is harsh and not politically correct as other things he said in the past, only now its from a different perspective...

[bigbossman999]

@alonee810 Also the failure of the peace talks can most aptly be attributed to the Israeli refusal to accept UN resolution 242 and the consensus of the international community. A peace agreement was almost finalized at Taba in 2011, but at the last minute barak called it off, because ariel sharon had essentially instigated the second intifida and used it as a way to unseat barak and have himself made prime minister.

[alonee810]

he still holds the same bold un euphemistic approach he used to blame israels policy with. he still advocate the same facts he did before only now he is connecting them to the middle eastern mentality [his words].for instance he is not refuting what he said about the ethnic cleansing in 1948, he just says it was a necessity in the circumstances of that time. as bad as it sounds, israel cleansed but in order to survive thats what was needed. if u read hebrew look out his article in "Haaretz"

[bigbossman999]

@alonee810 well this is one of his quotes for example: “like all occupations, Israel’s was founded on brute force, repression and fear, collaboration and treachery, beatings and torture chambers, and daily intimidation, humiliation, and manipulation”; this is anotehr quote regarding the intifida: “Almost everything was tried: shooting to kill, shooting to injure, beatings, mass arrests, torture, trials, administrative detention,

situations, and a great many of these were children”;

[bigbossman999]

@bigbossman999 and following up what i just posted, he said regarding israel soldiers conduct in the intifida which in the above quote he mentioned as torture, beatings, killing civillians, he went on to say: “Only a small minority of [the IDF] malefactors were brought to book by the army’s legal machinery—and were almost always let off with ludicrously light sentences.” This is why when morris is on a show now and they bring up one of HIS quotes he quickly tries to change the topic or interrupt

[alonee810]

@bigbossman999 to be honest im not familier with the quotes u mentioned and i would appreciate if you could refer me to their were abouts, thanks. i guess i was wrong, i was under a totally different impression regarding his former work i knew his political view but i guess not to there full extent. allthough as i said according to what u quoted he still says what he thinks regardless of what people think back than and today. i wonder what made him switch sides from one end to the other....

[bigbossman999]

@alonee810 and certainly, some of the sources i pulled the quotes from are : "Benny Morris, Israel’s Border Wars, 1949–1956" (oxford press 1993)

"Righteous Victims: A history of the Zionist-Arab conflict,

1881–2001 (New York: 2001),"

Anyway I think regardless of what side you find yourself on, I think we can all agree that definitely something needs to be done, a permanent peace settlement agreeable to both sides that will finally bring this unnecessary conflict to a peaceful end

[alonee810]

@bigbossman999 as i said i heard him say that during the research for his last book he got exposed to documents from the israeli archives that werent accessible. these historic documents plus the faliure of the last few peace talks made him change his opinion drastically.

maybe u can shed some light on that matter as well?

[bigbossman999]

@alonee810 so what exactly were these "magic" documents that suddenly made him forget his life long work and research...come on, if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, its a duck, hes written COUNTLESS books and essays, articles in which he has outlined israel from creation in 48 until modern era and has always criticized...all of a sudden he finds a magic document that changes his life..i dont buy it...I think he's more worried about marketablity in israel at this point & currying favor

[bigbossman999]

@bigbossman999 Also the failure of the peace talks can most aptly be attributed to the Israeli refusal to accept UN resolution 242 and the consensus of the international community. A peace agreement was almost finalized at Taba in 2011, but at the last minute barak called it off, because ariel sharon had essentially instigated the second intifida and used it as a way to unseat barak and have himself made prime minister.

[alonee810]

@bigbossman999 i doubt it, dont believe marketing his new book is the reason. if its money or prestige he is after sticking with his former approach would get him there faster. prof' Ilan Pappe is an example, he is currently teaching in oxford [i think] and is getting lots of attention. now he only wrote a few books[2-3] in his previous "life" as a leftist and even in those books as far as i know if you read them objectivly what i said still stands. he describes the events as they were...

[alonee810]

without picking sides pale' or israels. the change occuered as i said due to the research he has done[he wrote 4 books from 2000-2010 and only 2 before dat] and due to the failure of the peace talks from 2000 and on, which pretty much comes in sync with the books he wrote afterwards. thats how i see it anyways, i dont think "magic documents" did it, i think it was a long and slow process.

again if u can refrence me to the books\articles you quoted from it will b much appreciated. take care

[bigbossman999]

@alonee810 However, recently a great deal of news coverage regarding a proposed U.N. resolution to be passed in September 2011, the NY Times article on the subject being the most informative of these. Essentially the U.N. will recognize a Palestinian State with the entire West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem as it's territory with international consensus. In the times article, Ehud Barak rightfully points out that Israel needs to reach a peace agreement BEFORE this resolution is passed.

[alonee810]

@bigbossman999 regarding the peace talks it can b disputed. clinton and danis ross [as others on the israeli side] say Arafar refused the parameters and tryed to stall time[back in 2000]. Olmert[only two ys ago] and barak both[as prime ministers] offered almost everything to the pale'[olmert even excepted the return of some refugees] and the pale denied it. regarding the new deal, its true time is playing into the pale' hands...

[bigbossman999]

@alonee810 yes but Ross and Clinton say one thing and then other American diplomats and even an Israeli negotiator said if I was the palestinians I wouldve rejected it too, it was a discontiguous state with roughly 87% of west bank and SOME control of jerusalem. However the deal in the Taba, accoding to BOTH sides was amicable and they were ready to agree to it, when Barak had to call off the peace talks due to Sharon's instigation..

[alonee810]

@bigbossman999 they r not rushing into anything and barak is right israel should try and reach an agreement but to be honest i dont think it will happen. the u.n and other countrys might recognize palestine[some country allready have], my guess it will happen before any agreement between the two sides. time[and the worlds opinion] is not on israels side and the pale' know it so they wont rush into any agreement, if they feel they can bargain a better deal...

[alonee810]

@bigbossman999 but look at whats going on in the arab world who knows what tommorow will bring it could all change faster than we can predict or expect.

yes, its never boring here in the ME i can assure you...

[bigbossman999]

@ngreenwald89 well this is one of his quotes for example: “like all occupations, Israel’s was founded on brute force, repression and fear, collaboration and treachery, beatings and torture chambers, and daily intimidation, humiliation, and manipulation”; this is anotehr quote regarding the intifida: “Almost everything was tried: shooting to kill, shooting to injure, beatings, mass arrests, torture, trials, administrative detention,

situations, and a great many of these were children

[antiracismworld1]

A lot of false talking and changing the history facts, i cann't understand how he can be a historian!!!!!!