Rock on, man, this is the best demo ever! Your riffing is tasteful and showcases the pedal's characteristics clearly, and you mimicked the raw tone of a reverb tank really well when you added overdrive.
I'm actually not a fan of this particular pedal, but the mark of a good musician is that she or he sounds great with anything they play, so again, mad props!
this demo is perfect including B. When you hook up the GT 500 it is beautiful stained. And the comment war below is not only fucking awesome but educational!
ya its emulating plate reverb. Check out the song "Can't you hear me knocking" by the rolling stones and listen to the part where they get into a jam. The lead guitar is going through a plate reverb....it sounds absolutely soulful and orgasmic.
Don't call it a"plate reverb".. I dont care what wiki says about it. Is called a reverb tank and yes, tanks do a great job as you describe. The old echoplex reverb an echo tape machines are even better. Tanks tend to sound a bit thin after a while, but still good.for a song idea or two. All old analog stuff is good.
WTF? Why would I look this information up on wikipedia. I have a brain and ears to go along with it. It can sound like a plate reverb so thats what I'm calling it. Not all analog effects are created equal. It all depends on the style of music you play and the appropriateness that you feel the effect has. Echoplex's never did it for me. Very dark and unfocused but still very good in certain situations.
Why are you so angry? Im simply telling you, all the years I worked in audio repair, many many years ago, we always referred to the item a a reverb tank. If I called up to order a part and asked for a plate reverb, they would say, what is that. Analog is analog and digital is digital. Thing is when analog became a matter of a silicone chip, things went bad. A simple transistor was fine at first, then there were fet's and the rest of the crap. Then came the processor. Its over with at this point.
I'm simply telling you that this effects pedal sounds like a vintage plate reverb like the one heard on the rolling stones song "can't you hear me knocking". WTF is the travesty with this?
It is called a tank because it is like a tank, a fish tank for instance. It is simply a hunk of metal that holds spring that a signal is run thought and then that signal is run back into circuitry to amplify the signal. You are full of bullshit, aren't you? A typical utube talk bullshit person. Fuck me. Thanks. Got yourself an ego problem? need to be satisfied like a dog in heat, or are you hear to learn? Thanks.
You are thinking of a spring reverb you fucking ignoramus. Spring reverb consists of a metal tank, a pickup, transducer and springs. A plate reverb consists of a huge piece of steel sheet metal that is suspended by a frame, a pickup and a neodymium (or other type of) magnet transducer. You say that you have years of audio repair experience yet you don't even know what a fucking plate reverb is. Get your shit straight before you start correcting people.
I apologize for my foul language. It doesn't matter what the material is, well it does matter for sound, each material is different, and a whole slew of things can happen, but the idea is the same. I started repairing amps and doing studio work in the late 70's. I have worked on quite a bit of old 50's and 60's amps, and other vintage equipment, and I have a never seen a plate reverb. As I said, I dont care what wiki says about it. What you hear is acoustical reverb, tank reverb and tape reverb.
Man I don't understand why you keep referring to Wikipedia. I don't go on wikipedia for studio information. A plate reverb unit doesn't install in an amp, its strictly a studio tool. It's too huge to drag around from place to place. Just google it or something because its clear that you have no idea what I am talking about. This t-rex pedal does a great job of imitating a plate reverb. I have no idea what a tape reverb is, it doesn't exist as far as I know, but there is a tape echo.
I know it doesn't. They hung them on walls. My whole point from the beginning, if for one, is to understand how to manipulate tone, and to understand where the vintage sounds came from. As far as a digital pedal goes, to emulate an analog tone, it ain't going to happen. This is what I'm trying to teach you. Ya know, if you ever actually looked at an oscilloscope, and look at the signals, well, then you will understand why i get a prissy attitude when people say shit that has no relevant bearing.
Well I never said anything irrelevant so you still haven't justified anything to me. As far as trying to teach me something I have 5 years of military electronics experience working on LORAN transmitters that have vacuum power tubes half as tall as you. I've used equipment from oscilloscopes to spectrum analyzers. I have a lot of experience repairing vintage tube amplifiers and building my own as well. Your not teaching me anything I don't know but thanks anyway.
I am telling you all the sounds you hear that you think is plate reverb is not plate reverb. I don't know of anybody that used one. I think the item became obsolete right around the time it was made. Recording sound, and you should be able to understand this, maybe, is an art. vintage sound is a matter of old analog equipment, mic placement, and mostly a ton of trial and error. One can not just say, oh this digital pedal sounds like plate reverb. It sound like a new amp and a digital pedal.
I think you need to understand that this pedal actually has a full 300v going to the plate of a 12ax7 tube so its physically impossible for it to be all digital. At the very least it is analog to digital and then converted back to analog. I have a Dr. Scientist reverb that does this and it sounds absolutely analog and is the best reverb I have ever heard out of a pedal. Plate reverb was used in countless albums and I don't care what you say this pedal does a great impression of that reverb.
Also the owners manual says that it has a "classic plate" preset, stating it is an "excellent medium plate reverb." So what do you think classic plate means? End of discussion.
There is not end of discussion. The owners instructions are bull shit made in china crap. Ever take a 1950's sun mixing board, an use a fintage Marshall set up with 12h30's, bounce sound, go back, re record that sound in a bathroom?. Ever take an old Marshall cab and cut a whole in it, stick the mic in there, then go back and ass that to the sound? Ever take a tape echo and remove the head and remount it so the reverb is quicker in time and the tap speed doesn't have to move as fast. U know shit
Lets not get off topic. I know what a plate reverb sounds like, I've built one with my friend when he was building his studio. I also know that your a stubborn old fuck that has a real problem with a young guy proving him wrong.
I'm trying to teach you. Forget the ego. Youths typically have ego, and that is good for a battle situation, but it also stops the mind and heart from growing to gain substance. Long ago, a guitarist friend of mine that was connected got me an audition with a really popular band. He tells me: what every you do, whatever you do, DO NOT GO OVER THERE acting like you know everything, or they will boot your ass right out of the door. A musician needs to learn as much as they can as quick as they can
I can't argue with you on that. It's not my intention to battle you, but you are going off topic. I'm not doubting or insulting your studio experience. In fact I have very limited experience inside a studio myself. I just wanted to stick to the topic at hand: Plate reverb- it existed, many artists used it in large studios and that is one of the features this pedal is trying to imitate. If you feel it does a poor job of that then thats a whole other discussion.
Plate reverb Is a generic term passed around buy youngsters that have an ear for good tone, but do not know where that tone came from. I commend you on your ear and others that have the same ear for tone. Tone is the color an artist puts on his paint pallet long before he ever begins to paint and it makes a huge difference. The reason music sucks today is mostly because the world has gone digital. Analog blends tones in a way digital can not. Who used plates? Les Paul? Abbey road studio in 1949?
Don't give up, go build a plate reverb. Heck, I may make one myself, naah, but maybe. Experiment. The main things you need is the old Marshall gear, the real shit, an old mixing board, and a tape deck. No digital stuff at all, unless all is done and then you can use digital to make copies of the master. Thats fine. Do not give up. If you need to argue with me to learn something, just send me a PM. I love it all and there is almost nothing that I do not know about any of it. Your mind is open now
Plate reverb is not a generic term. The unit has a unique sound that is differant than room, hall or spring reverb. It also wasn't developed until the early 60's so "Abby road studio in 1949" wouldn't have such a device. Its a real thing that MANY recording artist used back in the day before they had analog and digital effects that imitated the unit. Even then nothing quite compares to the real deal plate reverb unit. My mind is always open. I'm not stubborn I just know when I'm right.
A plate reverb is an analog device. I did do some google on it and found almost nothing. I found out that the problem with the item is that everyone had trouble with the way it resonated all vibrations in the building, basically. Me being a sound man, I actually find this resonance to be a useful tool, but then there is practical application. They also had trouble with having to stretch the metal, and then there is the problem there is no control over time delay and repetition of such said delay
Now you go do a search for echoplex. The idea of controlling delay with multiple recording heads in an analog device, using the speed of the tape movement as well, was always more practical, thus, no one ever really used a plate is my assumption. I know my old echoplex gives me the reverb sound that is vintage, but the damn thing always needs maintenance. I still prefer using the acoustical environment of a room and clever mic placement. Nothing beats that sound. Hard wood floor, hallways, etc.
I have actually stuck a mic in a toilet to get a reverb sound. I record the main sound with mic up close to amp, or two mics around the amp and then find a place that bounces sounds. I record all three or four on separate tracks. This way, I have control over tone and reverberation. Sometimes I use mic bleed through from another instrument that is bouncing sound, but its so time consuming and it really sucks to have a good track and a failed reverberation, so I tweak with analog tanks and tape.
I'm somewhat familiar with the Echoplex. If you use short delay time on an echoplex or any other delay device then you can get a pretty good reverb effect. Recording studios used to have reverb rooms but they were much to big and expensive to build. Thats when EMT came along and produced the plate reverb to try to imitate this effect. Although it didn't quite copy a room , it produced a unique and brilliant sounding reverb that the T-rex pedal and many other reverb pedals try to imitate.
Who used plate reverb and in what song? Ya know, I know good and well, there are so many links in a chain, by the time the mix is over with, at least in the old days, nobody knows what came from where. What ever reverb you think is a plate, is probably not a plate. It could be 10 or 20 different variables combined or more. You do not seem to be catching on. I guess for you to understand, you will actually have to use the old analog equipment and learn to mix. It takes time and experimentation.
Your ego has kicked in again. Ok, Fine. I'll agree with you. This pedal sound like a "tank reverb". Now I can take my 2009 marshal rig and my hand full digital fuzz pedals and I will sound just like Jimmy Page on Led Zeppelin II. Wow. I never knew making a vintage sound was so easy. And to think. All these last 35 years of mixing sound, I am the idiot that thought I still had to use the old gear and equipment. There ya go. Does that rub make you feel better now? How about a nice pat on head. :)
Did we just go full circle again? Plate reverb is not a "tank reverb". Your thinking of a spring reverb tank. For fuck sake what is so difficult. I'm not saying anything that professional recording artists haven't already known long ago. The plate reverb came out when my dad was born. For your information this pedal is mostly analog because it has a vacuum tube in its circuit. I wish you would actually comprehend what I'm saying instead of interpreting it as a "youngsters point of view."
The pedal has a shit load of op amps in it and who knows what. Silicone chip bull shit galore. It is an impossible task to try and bull shit analog tone using big chips. You were typing as I was, so you may miss some comments i made, so tgo back and read two addition paragraphs I typed and use your ears to understand sound. Use the utube links.
Woops, I said tank when I meant to say plate. It makes no difference. Reverb is reverb and thats all there is to it. There are different way to make reverb, but the trick is to understand what you hear. Im sorry if I sound condescending to you, but I have been mixing sound for more years than you are old in age. Maybe twice that amount. Best advice I can give you, is learn from those that are older than you. Respect them. Old age gives forth wisdom that knowledge which comes from intellect cant.
Please don't lecture me on analog tone. You have no idea what experience I have. I understand analog tone as a musican and electrical engineer. I've built amps that have floored amp techs. I build my marshall JTM45 clones with old mustard caps and radiospares transformers. I'm not a kid that thinks a marshall DSL1000 and EMG active pickups sound good. I like my humbuckers and p-90s unpotted so they are slightly microphonic. I know more about vintage tone than you think.
Good, you do understand sound, but you do not have the gift that I have been given, and that is to understand g12H30. Forget your ego shit man. You got an opportunity to learn from a guy that has been there done that. Sheesh.
Fucking ego trip fuck. Know it all, and you know shit. I bet you can not wipe your ass without getting a smear on your fingers.
I will mail you a check for 1,000 dollars if you can tell me why the g12h30 shaped the face of rock and roll. I'm not kidding. Tell me in a specific way. You are such a great sound man and know it all. You are full of bullshit. The only sound you know is what your got in your tool box, and that's all new crap bullshit.
The G12H30, which is a celesion "greenback" speaker originally intended for marshall bass amps really got heard when jimmy hendrix started using this speaker later in his career (68'ish). It incorperated a smooth vocal midrange and a deep bass that worked great for stratocasters. Marshall plexi's wouldn't have their famous tone without the help of the greenback speaker. The main reason why these speakers work so well with classic rock is because of their detailed midrange. Can you stfu now?
Oh I forgot to mention, the G12H30 came in both a 55hz and 75hz cone. The 55hz cone is the bass cone which hendrix used. The 75hz cone is the standard guitar cone. Both were a heavy magnet version of the original speaker which were able to handle higher wattage. This went along with marshalls more powerful amplifiers starting from the later sixties which increased the popularity of rock and roll. Your not impressing me dude, any vintage buff knows about celestion greenbacks.
Good, you are in the ball park, but its still bullshit, but great. You at least have identified the item and I presume understand that this single item has more to do with the British invasion of rock more than anything else. However, you do not know what the speaker really does. You will not find it on google and actually, there is no one I know of that knows why this speaker worked, except maybe one other besides myself, a clever guy I learned from as a youth, and I bet he does not even know.
You srtife to make yourself feel special, because you live to serve your own ego. Now, logically speaking, to actually gain a prospective of understanding to find a way to find the tone you so desire, ask a simple question, but you can not. Your desire to satisfy your own ego is more important than to learn a way to grasp the old musical tone you so desire. Disgusting. Your very own ego fucks you, you yourself, because you have pride. The original sin.
You seem to think that your the only one that knows the secrets of the green back speaker, thats quite the ego trip my friend. I'm sure Jim at scumback speakers will rip you a new A'hole on how the greenback works. Take a look in the mirror before you judge someone else. While you sit on top of your mountain of shit I'll be installing new power and output transformers in my dads friend's vintage 66' deluxe reverb, learning tone through direct experience, not what some jackass says on youtube.
I am an old man. The only reason I became a sound man is because I knew that experience would help me musically. I mixed sound in the era where the 60's stuff was starting to be replaced by the 70's stuff.. Then, I came across some sound men I learned from. Funny thing is, when you mix a gig and one guy has the original, and another has the 70's version, its easy to understand what is going on. Also, I owned an audio company and repair shop in the mid 80's. We specialized in circuit design.
Also, as far as I know, and I really have been around for a long while, I am the only one that knows why the greenback worked, when other speakers fail. Copies, etc etc. The reason I know, is because of my acute sense of hearing tonal pitch as it relates to sound frequency. This is a clue for you. People say shit like the greenback is warm, etc. its all crap. None of them actually know why the speaker worked. Physically speaking. Maybe somebody besides myself knows, but I don't know who. Do you?
Again I'm not doubting your sound tech and studio experience, no doubt its miles above mine. The greenback speaker physically just has the right combination of everything for classic rock. The way the cone is ribbed and the doping that is put on the cone is in the right amount. People really took their time doing research and building products back then. To much doping and the speaker sounds dull, to little doping and the speaker gets cone cry making it useless for overdriven purposes.
Also apparently the spider on the celestion greenback is larger then other speakers of its time which also influenced its tone. Since the G12H30 was ratted at 30 watts it broke up easier then a higher wattage speaker of the later days so this too influenced tone. I feel that a lot of vintage tone was made by accident and some of it was done on purpose . After all Jim Marshall was just trying to make a bassman clone when he made his first amp and look what happened.
You are getting closer. First off, sound men are not usually musicians, and vice versa. The brilliant ones are both. The old tone was all by accident, pretty much. Celestion was a speaker used on tug boats and what not as a loud speaker, Marshall was new and needed speakers for their cabs, This combination was not really planed out, it was a lucky combination, but still why did that speaker work its magic, or let me rephrase. What did it do? You're kind of close when you speak of it breaking up.
Well the speaker wasn't very efficient either so the amp could be pushed harder and it wouldn't necessarily get louder, it would just break up more. I think the speaker was only rated at 98db where the celestion alnicos that vox used were rated at about 100db, much more efficient. Jimmy page did most of the studio work for the Zeppelin albums, he's quite brilliant to say the least.
You are getting very close now, but instead of thinking in terms of db, how loud the speaker can get or what its db ratting is, think in terms of tone, sound frequency. Keep on with the good attitude you got now and I will teach you how to make a new speaker sond like an old one, well as close as can be expected, anyway. There is nothing like the real deal, but second best is good enough.
Taking a look at the frequency chart for a greenback it has a noticeable upper midrange emphasis, and is prominent in the midrange frequencies in general. You should check out scumback speakers, he has the tone and construction nailed. As close to original as humanly possible.
Scumback is ok. Not the idea I am trying to get across. The old greenbacks did not produce upper mids. Specifically 4k HZ. This way, I can distort the piss out of my signal and never ever get any noise to speak of. People think tone is what made the speaker, its not really that. The thing about it was it was a "noise" filter, basically, because there was no fidelity to the speaker. There are ways to make a speaker work as a filter, thereby, one is limited with signal manipulation. Understand?
I meant to say "not limited". It all has to do with noise. A good sound growls. There is no noise. Noise, meaning 4k hertz hurts the human ear. I can take a good guitar sound and make it loud as can be, and if there is no noise, it will not hurt. A shit guitar sound will have noise and it the noise takes precedent. I use greenbacks as a filter so I can square wave my signal, or do a super signal boost overdrive, or anything else I can think of and the speaker keeps the noise away. Its a filter.
it also has to do with what I call wobble. A signal can only wobble so much. I can build multiple pre amp tube stages and what not, and makes the wobble, but then there also has to be a breakdown in the speaker itself. There needs to be a distance between the sine waves and this goes back to what you said before about speaker break down. I have the old stuff, but for new stuff, I have tricks that I use. I tape cardboard shapes to the speaker. I cut the cones with a knife. I use tape to dampen.
Hi. I was just thinking about you when I came across this just now Years ago, there was no doping. I want you to get your ear to notice something so utube for this:
watch?v=Kze4jqFgW2s&feature=fvw
The guitar and the vocals are not much different in their sound. Both are analog, but its more than just that. Heck, who knows, maybe the PA is loaded with celestions, but that crunch sound both have. This is the sound. Do you hear it? I think the PA sound is from the old mixing board, shit mics.
But then there is noise in the mix. Do you hear it? Let your ears hear the evil shit noise as well, so you will know what to listen for. Noise will deafen human hearing very quickly. 4K HZ. Most of it is from some digital crap somebody did converting files or what have you, its down right painful to my ears, and some of it is from bad equalization that happened originally within the mix, but listen to the begging of the song before they all come in. This is the tone. Big and fat, but no noise.
i think, if I remember correctly, the term doping a speaker came about after everyone had realized we all had lost the sound that was so cherished and so taken for granted. What happened was the celestion speaker cone factory burned down and it was at this point the game is over with, pretty much. Then in the 80's, they change the materials used to make magnets with, so a bad thing turned worse. I forget what metal it is. I quite paying attention to new technology at this point. All bullshit.
Look at the gibersish in your address window way at the top of the page. Copy the info I send you, highlight the giberish part and past the new info. Look for the word "watch". Look above for the word watch. Remove that portion of the address, and copy and past the info I gave you.
watch?v=Kze4jqFgW2s&feature=fv w
Let me know if it works out. If not, I will find another way, because I really want your to hear it.
Got it! Ya I do hear that hight pitch noise. Its painful now that you point it out, I would've never noticed it if you never mentioned it. That big fat tone that your talking about is what I like to call purr. A good vintage amp matched with the right speakers just purrs when its output stage is pushed.
Believe it or not I've got this tone coming from my JTM45 clone. Using carbon film and carbon comp resistors in the right places along with old mustard, ceramic and silver mica caps I've obtained that big fat purring tone that you and I are reffering too. It all comes together with the right tubes speakers and all the components that incorporate the amplifier. Each component has its own job and will make the signal sound different in some way. With ears like yours you would certainly hear this
And I certainly hear what you are referring to with that relatively high pitch, but isn't some of it unavoidable in a live situation depending on the venue? Doesn't the acoustics of the room have an overall impact and wouldn't it make it very difficult to eliminate the 4 khz noise?
You are in there dude. Took me weeks to find out your brain, but I guess I knew all along you were worthy. When you can take the pebble from my hand, little grasshopper, then you may leave the temple. LoL.
Yes, acoustics bounce sound and this essentially is reverberation, and this very idea is why I posted my first gripe against you. What frequencies are bouncing, or reverberating, and how many dB's of such said frequencies?. To understand this and to hear it is the art of sound manipulation.
Vintage amps are just my thing. The only way I got there is by unfortunately spending a lot of money (often times unnecessarily), studying vintage circuits and components, building, tweaking, finding out what works, what doesn't, and what really sounds good. repeat this process many times. I've been messing around with my HIWATT DR103 clone lately. Do you have any experience with vintage fane speakers? The acoustic environment eq and manipulation thing is certainly more your expertise.
The amp does not need to be vintage.This is where kids go wrong, They think the sound comes from the amp, and this is not really the case. The sound comes from the old speakers. It all has to do with the way a signal is mutilated and then presented. I can give you a vintage 68 Marshall head, but if you dont have the speakers that go with it, you have crap. I can give you a bull shit tube rig I just made from scratch, signal booster and square wave option, with the good speakers, and you rock.
Think of this I am no physicist, but I do have a general idea. All things in nature are the same. Sound, electricity and water are all the same, pretty much. A transformer buzzes a sound that is 60 HZ, 120V of AC. A kick drum makes the same sound. Water can make the same sound and also has the same fundamentals as electricity does, pretty much. How doe we first recognize these frequencies in nature and then combine and manuiplate them and then make a presentation? YOU do know V O C and W are? ?
I decided to not give up on you. I will let your ears hear. utube the following. Listen at 0;15 in the video. It sounds like he is in a cave. Also look at the control he has using tape echo. Also, that violin sounds more like the old guitar with Marshall gear then a new guitar with new Marshall gear. The tone of it. Tone is where one starts to build a sound. The violin has a growl the old gear has that the new stuff does not have.
Here is another one. This guy is using tape and a wood floor. Sounds good to me. Its a bit heavy on reverb to the point it becomes echo. It needs tweaking.
watch?v=f_TNCSztAFQ&feature=related
Now, this one is the real shit, tube echo. I love this item because I know tubes and old capacitors that leak voltage are where the real sound comes from.
watch?v=dBHOvEVHlew
I am trying to get you to understand the art of analog sound. It is a long lost from of art.
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trocastire5791 10 months ago
I love the tone, and the playing... God, I keep listening to it over and over again, just because of the playing. Thank you for sharing!
Talerken 1 year ago
Rock on, man, this is the best demo ever! Your riffing is tasteful and showcases the pedal's characteristics clearly, and you mimicked the raw tone of a reverb tank really well when you added overdrive.
I'm actually not a fan of this particular pedal, but the mark of a good musician is that she or he sounds great with anything they play, so again, mad props!
odallard 1 year ago
whoever is playing on this demo, I love the guitar tone and the playing a lot.
erikfrusciante 1 year ago
when you hook up the GT it is sustained beauty!
awesome educational from clehneis and YouSpamTard! haha
Long Live American Live
pooptrumpet 2 years ago
this demo is perfect including B. When you hook up the GT 500 it is beautiful stained. And the comment war below is not only fucking awesome but educational!
pooptrumpet 2 years ago
This sounds so good
mtsacemt2008 3 years ago
ya its emulating plate reverb. Check out the song "Can't you hear me knocking" by the rolling stones and listen to the part where they get into a jam. The lead guitar is going through a plate reverb....it sounds absolutely soulful and orgasmic.
clehneis 3 years ago
Don't call it a"plate reverb".. I dont care what wiki says about it. Is called a reverb tank and yes, tanks do a great job as you describe. The old echoplex reverb an echo tape machines are even better. Tanks tend to sound a bit thin after a while, but still good.for a song idea or two. All old analog stuff is good.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
WTF? Why would I look this information up on wikipedia. I have a brain and ears to go along with it. It can sound like a plate reverb so thats what I'm calling it. Not all analog effects are created equal. It all depends on the style of music you play and the appropriateness that you feel the effect has. Echoplex's never did it for me. Very dark and unfocused but still very good in certain situations.
clehneis 2 years ago
Why are you so angry? Im simply telling you, all the years I worked in audio repair, many many years ago, we always referred to the item a a reverb tank. If I called up to order a part and asked for a plate reverb, they would say, what is that. Analog is analog and digital is digital. Thing is when analog became a matter of a silicone chip, things went bad. A simple transistor was fine at first, then there were fet's and the rest of the crap. Then came the processor. Its over with at this point.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
I'm simply telling you that this effects pedal sounds like a vintage plate reverb like the one heard on the rolling stones song "can't you hear me knocking". WTF is the travesty with this?
clehneis 2 years ago
a plate reverb is not a tank at all. Its a large metal plate suspended by a frame. There is no tank involved at all.
clehneis 2 years ago
It is called a tank because it is like a tank, a fish tank for instance. It is simply a hunk of metal that holds spring that a signal is run thought and then that signal is run back into circuitry to amplify the signal. You are full of bullshit, aren't you? A typical utube talk bullshit person. Fuck me. Thanks. Got yourself an ego problem? need to be satisfied like a dog in heat, or are you hear to learn? Thanks.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
You are thinking of a spring reverb you fucking ignoramus. Spring reverb consists of a metal tank, a pickup, transducer and springs. A plate reverb consists of a huge piece of steel sheet metal that is suspended by a frame, a pickup and a neodymium (or other type of) magnet transducer. You say that you have years of audio repair experience yet you don't even know what a fucking plate reverb is. Get your shit straight before you start correcting people.
clehneis 2 years ago
I apologize for my foul language. It doesn't matter what the material is, well it does matter for sound, each material is different, and a whole slew of things can happen, but the idea is the same. I started repairing amps and doing studio work in the late 70's. I have worked on quite a bit of old 50's and 60's amps, and other vintage equipment, and I have a never seen a plate reverb. As I said, I dont care what wiki says about it. What you hear is acoustical reverb, tank reverb and tape reverb.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
Man I don't understand why you keep referring to Wikipedia. I don't go on wikipedia for studio information. A plate reverb unit doesn't install in an amp, its strictly a studio tool. It's too huge to drag around from place to place. Just google it or something because its clear that you have no idea what I am talking about. This t-rex pedal does a great job of imitating a plate reverb. I have no idea what a tape reverb is, it doesn't exist as far as I know, but there is a tape echo.
clehneis 2 years ago
I know it doesn't. They hung them on walls. My whole point from the beginning, if for one, is to understand how to manipulate tone, and to understand where the vintage sounds came from. As far as a digital pedal goes, to emulate an analog tone, it ain't going to happen. This is what I'm trying to teach you. Ya know, if you ever actually looked at an oscilloscope, and look at the signals, well, then you will understand why i get a prissy attitude when people say shit that has no relevant bearing.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
Well I never said anything irrelevant so you still haven't justified anything to me. As far as trying to teach me something I have 5 years of military electronics experience working on LORAN transmitters that have vacuum power tubes half as tall as you. I've used equipment from oscilloscopes to spectrum analyzers. I have a lot of experience repairing vintage tube amplifiers and building my own as well. Your not teaching me anything I don't know but thanks anyway.
clehneis 2 years ago
I am telling you all the sounds you hear that you think is plate reverb is not plate reverb. I don't know of anybody that used one. I think the item became obsolete right around the time it was made. Recording sound, and you should be able to understand this, maybe, is an art. vintage sound is a matter of old analog equipment, mic placement, and mostly a ton of trial and error. One can not just say, oh this digital pedal sounds like plate reverb. It sound like a new amp and a digital pedal.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
I think you need to understand that this pedal actually has a full 300v going to the plate of a 12ax7 tube so its physically impossible for it to be all digital. At the very least it is analog to digital and then converted back to analog. I have a Dr. Scientist reverb that does this and it sounds absolutely analog and is the best reverb I have ever heard out of a pedal. Plate reverb was used in countless albums and I don't care what you say this pedal does a great impression of that reverb.
clehneis 2 years ago
Also the owners manual says that it has a "classic plate" preset, stating it is an "excellent medium plate reverb." So what do you think classic plate means? End of discussion.
clehneis 2 years ago
There is not end of discussion. The owners instructions are bull shit made in china crap. Ever take a 1950's sun mixing board, an use a fintage Marshall set up with 12h30's, bounce sound, go back, re record that sound in a bathroom?. Ever take an old Marshall cab and cut a whole in it, stick the mic in there, then go back and ass that to the sound? Ever take a tape echo and remove the head and remount it so the reverb is quicker in time and the tap speed doesn't have to move as fast. U know shit
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
Lets not get off topic. I know what a plate reverb sounds like, I've built one with my friend when he was building his studio. I also know that your a stubborn old fuck that has a real problem with a young guy proving him wrong.
clehneis 2 years ago
I'm trying to teach you. Forget the ego. Youths typically have ego, and that is good for a battle situation, but it also stops the mind and heart from growing to gain substance. Long ago, a guitarist friend of mine that was connected got me an audition with a really popular band. He tells me: what every you do, whatever you do, DO NOT GO OVER THERE acting like you know everything, or they will boot your ass right out of the door. A musician needs to learn as much as they can as quick as they can
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
I can't argue with you on that. It's not my intention to battle you, but you are going off topic. I'm not doubting or insulting your studio experience. In fact I have very limited experience inside a studio myself. I just wanted to stick to the topic at hand: Plate reverb- it existed, many artists used it in large studios and that is one of the features this pedal is trying to imitate. If you feel it does a poor job of that then thats a whole other discussion.
clehneis 2 years ago
Plate reverb Is a generic term passed around buy youngsters that have an ear for good tone, but do not know where that tone came from. I commend you on your ear and others that have the same ear for tone. Tone is the color an artist puts on his paint pallet long before he ever begins to paint and it makes a huge difference. The reason music sucks today is mostly because the world has gone digital. Analog blends tones in a way digital can not. Who used plates? Les Paul? Abbey road studio in 1949?
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
I give up.
clehneis 2 years ago
Don't give up, go build a plate reverb. Heck, I may make one myself, naah, but maybe. Experiment. The main things you need is the old Marshall gear, the real shit, an old mixing board, and a tape deck. No digital stuff at all, unless all is done and then you can use digital to make copies of the master. Thats fine. Do not give up. If you need to argue with me to learn something, just send me a PM. I love it all and there is almost nothing that I do not know about any of it. Your mind is open now
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
Plate reverb is not a generic term. The unit has a unique sound that is differant than room, hall or spring reverb. It also wasn't developed until the early 60's so "Abby road studio in 1949" wouldn't have such a device. Its a real thing that MANY recording artist used back in the day before they had analog and digital effects that imitated the unit. Even then nothing quite compares to the real deal plate reverb unit. My mind is always open. I'm not stubborn I just know when I'm right.
clehneis 2 years ago
A plate reverb is an analog device. I did do some google on it and found almost nothing. I found out that the problem with the item is that everyone had trouble with the way it resonated all vibrations in the building, basically. Me being a sound man, I actually find this resonance to be a useful tool, but then there is practical application. They also had trouble with having to stretch the metal, and then there is the problem there is no control over time delay and repetition of such said delay
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
Now you go do a search for echoplex. The idea of controlling delay with multiple recording heads in an analog device, using the speed of the tape movement as well, was always more practical, thus, no one ever really used a plate is my assumption. I know my old echoplex gives me the reverb sound that is vintage, but the damn thing always needs maintenance. I still prefer using the acoustical environment of a room and clever mic placement. Nothing beats that sound. Hard wood floor, hallways, etc.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
I have actually stuck a mic in a toilet to get a reverb sound. I record the main sound with mic up close to amp, or two mics around the amp and then find a place that bounces sounds. I record all three or four on separate tracks. This way, I have control over tone and reverberation. Sometimes I use mic bleed through from another instrument that is bouncing sound, but its so time consuming and it really sucks to have a good track and a failed reverberation, so I tweak with analog tanks and tape.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
I'm somewhat familiar with the Echoplex. If you use short delay time on an echoplex or any other delay device then you can get a pretty good reverb effect. Recording studios used to have reverb rooms but they were much to big and expensive to build. Thats when EMT came along and produced the plate reverb to try to imitate this effect. Although it didn't quite copy a room , it produced a unique and brilliant sounding reverb that the T-rex pedal and many other reverb pedals try to imitate.
clehneis 2 years ago
Who used plate reverb and in what song? Ya know, I know good and well, there are so many links in a chain, by the time the mix is over with, at least in the old days, nobody knows what came from where. What ever reverb you think is a plate, is probably not a plate. It could be 10 or 20 different variables combined or more. You do not seem to be catching on. I guess for you to understand, you will actually have to use the old analog equipment and learn to mix. It takes time and experimentation.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
Seriously man your skull is so dense its astonishing.
clehneis 2 years ago
Your ego has kicked in again. Ok, Fine. I'll agree with you. This pedal sound like a "tank reverb". Now I can take my 2009 marshal rig and my hand full digital fuzz pedals and I will sound just like Jimmy Page on Led Zeppelin II. Wow. I never knew making a vintage sound was so easy. And to think. All these last 35 years of mixing sound, I am the idiot that thought I still had to use the old gear and equipment. There ya go. Does that rub make you feel better now? How about a nice pat on head. :)
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
Did we just go full circle again? Plate reverb is not a "tank reverb". Your thinking of a spring reverb tank. For fuck sake what is so difficult. I'm not saying anything that professional recording artists haven't already known long ago. The plate reverb came out when my dad was born. For your information this pedal is mostly analog because it has a vacuum tube in its circuit. I wish you would actually comprehend what I'm saying instead of interpreting it as a "youngsters point of view."
clehneis 2 years ago
The pedal has a shit load of op amps in it and who knows what. Silicone chip bull shit galore. It is an impossible task to try and bull shit analog tone using big chips. You were typing as I was, so you may miss some comments i made, so tgo back and read two addition paragraphs I typed and use your ears to understand sound. Use the utube links.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
Woops, I said tank when I meant to say plate. It makes no difference. Reverb is reverb and thats all there is to it. There are different way to make reverb, but the trick is to understand what you hear. Im sorry if I sound condescending to you, but I have been mixing sound for more years than you are old in age. Maybe twice that amount. Best advice I can give you, is learn from those that are older than you. Respect them. Old age gives forth wisdom that knowledge which comes from intellect cant.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
Please don't lecture me on analog tone. You have no idea what experience I have. I understand analog tone as a musican and electrical engineer. I've built amps that have floored amp techs. I build my marshall JTM45 clones with old mustard caps and radiospares transformers. I'm not a kid that thinks a marshall DSL1000 and EMG active pickups sound good. I like my humbuckers and p-90s unpotted so they are slightly microphonic. I know more about vintage tone than you think.
clehneis 2 years ago
Good, you do understand sound, but you do not have the gift that I have been given, and that is to understand g12H30. Forget your ego shit man. You got an opportunity to learn from a guy that has been there done that. Sheesh.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
Fucking ego trip fuck. Know it all, and you know shit. I bet you can not wipe your ass without getting a smear on your fingers.
I will mail you a check for 1,000 dollars if you can tell me why the g12h30 shaped the face of rock and roll. I'm not kidding. Tell me in a specific way. You are such a great sound man and know it all. You are full of bullshit. The only sound you know is what your got in your tool box, and that's all new crap bullshit.
G12H30
Why, why, why? Why did it shape. SHeesh
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
You and this ego bullshit. What ever you say guy, I'm done with this convo.
clehneis 2 years ago
The G12H30, which is a celesion "greenback" speaker originally intended for marshall bass amps really got heard when jimmy hendrix started using this speaker later in his career (68'ish). It incorperated a smooth vocal midrange and a deep bass that worked great for stratocasters. Marshall plexi's wouldn't have their famous tone without the help of the greenback speaker. The main reason why these speakers work so well with classic rock is because of their detailed midrange. Can you stfu now?
clehneis 2 years ago
Oh I forgot to mention, the G12H30 came in both a 55hz and 75hz cone. The 55hz cone is the bass cone which hendrix used. The 75hz cone is the standard guitar cone. Both were a heavy magnet version of the original speaker which were able to handle higher wattage. This went along with marshalls more powerful amplifiers starting from the later sixties which increased the popularity of rock and roll. Your not impressing me dude, any vintage buff knows about celestion greenbacks.
clehneis 2 years ago
Good, you are in the ball park, but its still bullshit, but great. You at least have identified the item and I presume understand that this single item has more to do with the British invasion of rock more than anything else. However, you do not know what the speaker really does. You will not find it on google and actually, there is no one I know of that knows why this speaker worked, except maybe one other besides myself, a clever guy I learned from as a youth, and I bet he does not even know.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
what ever makes you feel special.
clehneis 2 years ago
You srtife to make yourself feel special, because you live to serve your own ego. Now, logically speaking, to actually gain a prospective of understanding to find a way to find the tone you so desire, ask a simple question, but you can not. Your desire to satisfy your own ego is more important than to learn a way to grasp the old musical tone you so desire. Disgusting. Your very own ego fucks you, you yourself, because you have pride. The original sin.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
You are so socially ignorant. I pitty you.
clehneis 2 years ago
You seem to think that your the only one that knows the secrets of the green back speaker, thats quite the ego trip my friend. I'm sure Jim at scumback speakers will rip you a new A'hole on how the greenback works. Take a look in the mirror before you judge someone else. While you sit on top of your mountain of shit I'll be installing new power and output transformers in my dads friend's vintage 66' deluxe reverb, learning tone through direct experience, not what some jackass says on youtube.
clehneis 2 years ago
I am an old man. The only reason I became a sound man is because I knew that experience would help me musically. I mixed sound in the era where the 60's stuff was starting to be replaced by the 70's stuff.. Then, I came across some sound men I learned from. Funny thing is, when you mix a gig and one guy has the original, and another has the 70's version, its easy to understand what is going on. Also, I owned an audio company and repair shop in the mid 80's. We specialized in circuit design.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
Also, as far as I know, and I really have been around for a long while, I am the only one that knows why the greenback worked, when other speakers fail. Copies, etc etc. The reason I know, is because of my acute sense of hearing tonal pitch as it relates to sound frequency. This is a clue for you. People say shit like the greenback is warm, etc. its all crap. None of them actually know why the speaker worked. Physically speaking. Maybe somebody besides myself knows, but I don't know who. Do you?
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
Again I'm not doubting your sound tech and studio experience, no doubt its miles above mine. The greenback speaker physically just has the right combination of everything for classic rock. The way the cone is ribbed and the doping that is put on the cone is in the right amount. People really took their time doing research and building products back then. To much doping and the speaker sounds dull, to little doping and the speaker gets cone cry making it useless for overdriven purposes.
clehneis 2 years ago
Also apparently the spider on the celestion greenback is larger then other speakers of its time which also influenced its tone. Since the G12H30 was ratted at 30 watts it broke up easier then a higher wattage speaker of the later days so this too influenced tone. I feel that a lot of vintage tone was made by accident and some of it was done on purpose . After all Jim Marshall was just trying to make a bassman clone when he made his first amp and look what happened.
clehneis 2 years ago
You are getting closer. First off, sound men are not usually musicians, and vice versa. The brilliant ones are both. The old tone was all by accident, pretty much. Celestion was a speaker used on tug boats and what not as a loud speaker, Marshall was new and needed speakers for their cabs, This combination was not really planed out, it was a lucky combination, but still why did that speaker work its magic, or let me rephrase. What did it do? You're kind of close when you speak of it breaking up.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
Well the speaker wasn't very efficient either so the amp could be pushed harder and it wouldn't necessarily get louder, it would just break up more. I think the speaker was only rated at 98db where the celestion alnicos that vox used were rated at about 100db, much more efficient. Jimmy page did most of the studio work for the Zeppelin albums, he's quite brilliant to say the least.
clehneis 2 years ago
You are getting very close now, but instead of thinking in terms of db, how loud the speaker can get or what its db ratting is, think in terms of tone, sound frequency. Keep on with the good attitude you got now and I will teach you how to make a new speaker sond like an old one, well as close as can be expected, anyway. There is nothing like the real deal, but second best is good enough.
Happy Thanks Giving, my friend. :)
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
Taking a look at the frequency chart for a greenback it has a noticeable upper midrange emphasis, and is prominent in the midrange frequencies in general. You should check out scumback speakers, he has the tone and construction nailed. As close to original as humanly possible.
Happy Thanks Giving to you to.
clehneis 2 years ago
Scumback is ok. Not the idea I am trying to get across. The old greenbacks did not produce upper mids. Specifically 4k HZ. This way, I can distort the piss out of my signal and never ever get any noise to speak of. People think tone is what made the speaker, its not really that. The thing about it was it was a "noise" filter, basically, because there was no fidelity to the speaker. There are ways to make a speaker work as a filter, thereby, one is limited with signal manipulation. Understand?
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
I meant to say "not limited". It all has to do with noise. A good sound growls. There is no noise. Noise, meaning 4k hertz hurts the human ear. I can take a good guitar sound and make it loud as can be, and if there is no noise, it will not hurt. A shit guitar sound will have noise and it the noise takes precedent. I use greenbacks as a filter so I can square wave my signal, or do a super signal boost overdrive, or anything else I can think of and the speaker keeps the noise away. Its a filter.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
it also has to do with what I call wobble. A signal can only wobble so much. I can build multiple pre amp tube stages and what not, and makes the wobble, but then there also has to be a breakdown in the speaker itself. There needs to be a distance between the sine waves and this goes back to what you said before about speaker break down. I have the old stuff, but for new stuff, I have tricks that I use. I tape cardboard shapes to the speaker. I cut the cones with a knife. I use tape to dampen.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
I think so. So basically the speaker only lets a certain frequency range come through?
clehneis 2 years ago
I believe dampening is exactly the purpose of doping a speaker cone. Thats why its so important to have the right amount of doping.
clehneis 2 years ago
Hi. I was just thinking about you when I came across this just now Years ago, there was no doping. I want you to get your ear to notice something so utube for this:
watch?v=Kze4jqFgW2s&feature=fvw
The guitar and the vocals are not much different in their sound. Both are analog, but its more than just that. Heck, who knows, maybe the PA is loaded with celestions, but that crunch sound both have. This is the sound. Do you hear it? I think the PA sound is from the old mixing board, shit mics.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
But then there is noise in the mix. Do you hear it? Let your ears hear the evil shit noise as well, so you will know what to listen for. Noise will deafen human hearing very quickly. 4K HZ. Most of it is from some digital crap somebody did converting files or what have you, its down right painful to my ears, and some of it is from bad equalization that happened originally within the mix, but listen to the begging of the song before they all come in. This is the tone. Big and fat, but no noise.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
i think, if I remember correctly, the term doping a speaker came about after everyone had realized we all had lost the sound that was so cherished and so taken for granted. What happened was the celestion speaker cone factory burned down and it was at this point the game is over with, pretty much. Then in the 80's, they change the materials used to make magnets with, so a bad thing turned worse. I forget what metal it is. I quite paying attention to new technology at this point. All bullshit.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
I wish I could go to the links your sending me but I don't know how to use the info you provided to find the vid.
clehneis 2 years ago
Look at the gibersish in your address window way at the top of the page. Copy the info I send you, highlight the giberish part and past the new info. Look for the word "watch". Look above for the word watch. Remove that portion of the address, and copy and past the info I gave you.
watch?v=Kze4jqFgW2s&feature=fv w
Let me know if it works out. If not, I will find another way, because I really want your to hear it.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
Got it! Ya I do hear that hight pitch noise. Its painful now that you point it out, I would've never noticed it if you never mentioned it. That big fat tone that your talking about is what I like to call purr. A good vintage amp matched with the right speakers just purrs when its output stage is pushed.
clehneis 2 years ago
Believe it or not I've got this tone coming from my JTM45 clone. Using carbon film and carbon comp resistors in the right places along with old mustard, ceramic and silver mica caps I've obtained that big fat purring tone that you and I are reffering too. It all comes together with the right tubes speakers and all the components that incorporate the amplifier. Each component has its own job and will make the signal sound different in some way. With ears like yours you would certainly hear this
clehneis 2 years ago
And I certainly hear what you are referring to with that relatively high pitch, but isn't some of it unavoidable in a live situation depending on the venue? Doesn't the acoustics of the room have an overall impact and wouldn't it make it very difficult to eliminate the 4 khz noise?
clehneis 2 years ago
You are in there dude. Took me weeks to find out your brain, but I guess I knew all along you were worthy. When you can take the pebble from my hand, little grasshopper, then you may leave the temple. LoL.
Yes, acoustics bounce sound and this essentially is reverberation, and this very idea is why I posted my first gripe against you. What frequencies are bouncing, or reverberating, and how many dB's of such said frequencies?. To understand this and to hear it is the art of sound manipulation.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
Vintage amps are just my thing. The only way I got there is by unfortunately spending a lot of money (often times unnecessarily), studying vintage circuits and components, building, tweaking, finding out what works, what doesn't, and what really sounds good. repeat this process many times. I've been messing around with my HIWATT DR103 clone lately. Do you have any experience with vintage fane speakers? The acoustic environment eq and manipulation thing is certainly more your expertise.
clehneis 2 years ago
The amp does not need to be vintage.This is where kids go wrong, They think the sound comes from the amp, and this is not really the case. The sound comes from the old speakers. It all has to do with the way a signal is mutilated and then presented. I can give you a vintage 68 Marshall head, but if you dont have the speakers that go with it, you have crap. I can give you a bull shit tube rig I just made from scratch, signal booster and square wave option, with the good speakers, and you rock.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
Think of this I am no physicist, but I do have a general idea. All things in nature are the same. Sound, electricity and water are all the same, pretty much. A transformer buzzes a sound that is 60 HZ, 120V of AC. A kick drum makes the same sound. Water can make the same sound and also has the same fundamentals as electricity does, pretty much. How doe we first recognize these frequencies in nature and then combine and manuiplate them and then make a presentation? YOU do know V O C and W are? ?
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
I decided to not give up on you. I will let your ears hear. utube the following. Listen at 0;15 in the video. It sounds like he is in a cave. Also look at the control he has using tape echo. Also, that violin sounds more like the old guitar with Marshall gear then a new guitar with new Marshall gear. The tone of it. Tone is where one starts to build a sound. The violin has a growl the old gear has that the new stuff does not have.
watch?v=MOxRZ7Xt-ys&feature=related
If hope this helps.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
Here is another one. This guy is using tape and a wood floor. Sounds good to me. Its a bit heavy on reverb to the point it becomes echo. It needs tweaking.
watch?v=f_TNCSztAFQ&feature=related
Now, this one is the real shit, tube echo. I love this item because I know tubes and old capacitors that leak voltage are where the real sound comes from.
watch?v=dBHOvEVHlew
I am trying to get you to understand the art of analog sound. It is a long lost from of art.
YouSpamTard 2 years ago
EMT introduced the plate reverb unit in 1957. Just goole EMT plate reverb and you'll get the whole history on it.
clehneis 2 years ago
nice post but a hair boring!...want one!
mcski2007 3 years ago