Nigel Lawson on state of the UK economy (09Oct11)

[Alan7997]

MP boardroom meeting: "We could kick start the economy by implimenting a massive skilled work programme for the nation there by reducing our overdependance on the financial sector." Bwahahahahahahahaha!!! "Ha ha, ha! yeah, I thought you chaps would find that funny; now, let's get down to business."

[MetaReaLizard]

You know these problems are the product of wealth condensation and property laws that empower those with wealth disproportionatly to the masses. The problem isn't going to be solved with the same logic that created it. We are heading for a crime wave of epic proportions in this country... it is going to take a big lesson to teach people the value of community after three years of the social disease they call neoliberalism - More damaging to humanity than heroin epidemics.

[Bastiat90]

Tell that to the 500,00,000 people in China and India who have been lifted out of poverty since the 1970's when Deng liberalised China and India followed suit. But hey, never let facts interfere with the bigotry of a leftist. After all, facts are just tools used by the ruling classes to perpetuate the false consciousness of the proletariat.

[MetaReaLizard]

@Bastiat90 You're right neoliberalism has saved the world from poverty and the evil spectre of communism it's a fact.... I don't know how I didn't see it before... There are no ruling classes I mean we get to vote once every 5 years so there can't be can there? And just because a handful of people own the vast majority of wealth doesn't mean they have less political dominance than say a refuse worker from dagenham. We should be grateful really cos I mean it could be worse couldn't it..!

[Bastiat90]

Sarcasm is good when subtle. You're just a fucking moron. Does the 'ruling class' prevent you from doing what you want? Does it throw you into a labour camp for disagreeing with the consensus? Does it unleash machine gun fire on anti-capitalist protesters? Does Bill Gates being insanely rich adversely affect your life?

[MetaReaLizard]

@Bastiat90 I wanted to make sure you would pick up on it... i'm not sure you could manage subtle. With regard to the rest of you rant... have I mafe any of the arguments you are using to justify me being a moron..? I'll answer them anyway (in order of appearance):

Yes, to a degree I find unacceptable; not yet, but they are pushing forced labour; no - although i'd think that's way below human rights threshold; Microsoft are a massive blocker of the free software movement....

[MetaReaLizard]

... Although you say i'm a moron you did kind of demonstrate my point that your position relies on the masses ignoring their lack of political power on the basis that we should be grateful that we aren't machine-gunned in the street etc... Pretty dumb to actually try and discredit me by making the same arguments; let me guess, that's you being subtle? One thing I did find interesting is that it's all focused at me... why does it have to be me that suffers for me to be opposed to something?

[Bastiat90]

Of course, the theory of false consciousness rears its ugly head again. Because the working classes don't accept Marxian analysis, they must be too stupid to understand their own interests and need middle class liberals to do it for them.

Aww you're suffering? Well, you deserve it. Contemptible arguments deserve nothing other than contempt.

Political power is and always has been irrelevant because politicians are wankers... and socialists want them to have more power!!!

[MetaReaLizard]

@Bastiat90 Suffering? In what way would I be suffering..? Because you don't agree with me? I'm not a statist... I don't want politicians to have more power I want them to have less... I want direct democracy. I don't think the people are too dumb to understand... I think they feel disenfranchised from politics. It's interesting to me that you have contempt for arguments you fabricate in your own mind. I've always held that egotism is a product of a deep seeded insecurity.

[Bastiat90]

No dear boy, I just have contempt for your arguments. Even before you make them I know I will disagree with them. It's just the way you express yourself. You don't exactly possess the art of persuasion through logic and irrefutable evidence. Because logic and irrefutable evidence is no friend to leftists.

[MetaReaLizard]

@Bastiat90 Irrefutable evidence about economic arguments? Logic..? Which epistemological school do you hold in highest regard? Empiricism..? Come now old chap show me this irrefutable logic that gives you the right of claim over the truth.

[Bastiat90]

I gave you statistics earlier about the number of Chinese and Indians lifted out of poverty during the last 30 years? Can you handle more?

[MetaReaLizard]

@Bastiat90 Those statistics have no relevance to my position so they were ignored... I do not support the political system of China or India during the period you describe. "Lifted out of poverty" is a very subjective terminology to use in any case. Furthermore I am not entirely opposed to all forms of capitalism and freemarket competition... I am just not a believer in the indefeasibility of the "invisible hand" ideology; or the universal applicability of private property.

[Bastiat90]

These statistics have no relevance to you because they nullify your argument. Facts have always trumped socialist theory. There is a middle class in India and China, whereas under feudalism and communism, they didn't exist (India more feudal than communist).

[MetaReaLizard]

@Bastiat90 That's not exactly true... If I am guilty of anything it's that I was a little to lazy to examine your arguments thoroughly. India has had a caste based class system for a long time and well Maoist China isn't really my view of a utopian society. Mao and Stalin were lunatics that frankly perverted the revolutionary aspects of marxism to their own ends: dictators. I'm not a marxist, but he does provide a strong antithesis to capitalist theory that should be considered.

[Bastiat90]

Nothing wrong with Marxism old chap! What Marx wrote bears little relation to what Marxists claim he wrote. For example, he praised the 'revolutionary' power of capitalism and its role in destroying feudalism. He praised its powers of regeneration. He once wrote that India was lucky to have been colonised by Britain rather than Russia! I'm not going to claim Marx was a right winger, but his legacy deserves a much more comprehensive analysis than one's by Terry Eagleton.

[Bastiat90]

But to me, utopia cannot exist. Simple because we all have different ideas on what constitutes it. The best solution is to let people get on with their lives provided they don't infringe upon the freedoms of others. If a group of communists want to declare statehood in the hills of Norfolk, let them. It won't bother you or I in the slightest.

I'm rather enjoying this discussion now!! Thankyou. It's much better when we are both polite!

[Bastiat90]

Oh don't worry about me... your with is positively Liliputian so there's no danger of me failing to understand it. Please, be as obfuscatory and vague as you like. Does the ruling class force you to work backreaking jobs for little to no pay? Bill Gates got rich by providing a service lots of people wanted in the market. His later actions are irrelevant to his wealth. But hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good rant eh.

[MetaReaLizard]

@Bastiat90 Rofl contiuning with the same crap are we..? No because they have been prevented from teating people like that by the union movement and employment laws. I don't deny Bill Gates was a shrewd businessman, it may not be of interest you, but I am concerned with the way he has monopolised markets with his wealth.. Vague? nevermind, things will get clearer the more you apply your mind.

[Bastiat90]

Most of the private sector isn't unionised, and the unions that do exist are weak. USDAW is the union I'm eligible for and I didn't join, and yet I'm still entitled to double pay on overtime, I get paid holidays, I choose my days off, and get all the work I want. Bill Gates doesn't have a monopoly. Apple competes with Microsoft for every customer, and guess what! YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY HIS FUCKING PRODUCTS! You can do the leftist thing and organise a boycott

[MetaReaLizard]

@Bastiat90 You need to check your history, find out how things like overtime and holiday pay came about. You talk of logic but you give an example of 1, yourself hardly a convincing argument is it? Always about the self again.. I see. Apple and Microsoft is a duopoly, and they have monopolised interrelated software markets with their operating systems, so yes your pretty compelled to buy their products. Even if you don't use their OS you still have to pay for it with a computer.

[Bastiat90]

Assuming you're correct (and you aren't), does an Apple/Microsoft Duopoly harm you in anyway? Aren't computers cheaper in relative and absolute terms than a decade ago. There's no fucking pleasing some people.

[MetaReaLizard]

@Bastiat90 I thought you were ever so concerned by markets being open to competition..? That otherwise we'd fall into the pit of socialism..? Oh FYI Microsoft don't make computers... and Apple computers are still very expensive. But you keep distorting the "facts" to suit your argument, don't let me stop you. We all know why components manufactured in China and Taiwan etc are so cheap, but we don't like to face up to it do we... In fact it's best not to mention it isn't it.?

[Bastiat90]

Ever read Paul Krugman? That doyen of Left economists? Earning $2 a hour is better than working in a Laogai or collective for fuck all. And as happened elsewhere, the burgeoning middle classes will demand reform of the economy to suit their needs; you might call it self interest. I thought socialists were historical determinists? Apple Computers are expensive but people still buy them! They don't have to. Nobody is forced to buy a computer.

[MetaReaLizard]

@Bastiat90 "The reason that the invisible hand (i.e. the idea that the pursuit of self-interest would lead to the well-being of society) seemed invisble, was that it wasn't there." Jospeh Stiglitz

You know just because you are not 100% right doesn't make you wrong. Self interest is for certain an aspect of humanity. We are also a social species. Nothing is black and white be it ethics or economics. We as a species and a society are learning, don't cling to the past; learn from it.

[Bastiat90]

Lot of respect for Stiglitz as an economist (not that he needs it from me, nor cares for it), but the invisible hand exists whether he agrees or not. Let me get a point in here; capitalism can be bad. Let me now paraphrase Churchil. Capitalism is the worst of the economic systems, except for all others. But it runs on human nature, and all other economic systems run against it.

[MetaReaLizard]

@Bastiat90 Capitalism reflects a very strong aspect of human nature. Churchill supported Land Value Tax if memory serves me correctly, Friedman also. I believe introducing such a system within a freemarket framework could with, some collective infrastructure, be a progressive societal move. To me it isn't about capitalism being better than socialism, it's about how we can develop and synthesise what works. Until it requires a new label, that is human nature also.

[Bastiat90]

Churchill was overrated, and were it not for the 2nd World War, would be a footnote in political history and an example of its most notorious charlatans.

I'll admit I'm a dogmatist, and I disagree with most taxation. I believe in a local sales tax to fund local services for those who cannot, through physical or mental disablement, cannot provide for themselves.

[MetaReaLizard]

@Bastiat90 Oh I agree with you about Churchill. I also disagree with most taxation and support de-centralisation of state power, to direct democratic local bodies. However I have a fundamental disagreement with right-libertarians about property rights of land and resources. A more mutualist approach is required that respects a balance between individual and collective property rights. I see Land Value Tax as the best way to do this without penalising producitivity.

[Bastiat90]

If people want to set up a collective property system amongst their local community, I would not stop them. Personally, I'm an individualist. But if people want a communitarian lifestyle that is their choice and they are free to make it. Property rights are one of the main facilititators of personal liberty, whether an individual owns the property or a collective.

[Bastiat90]

And FYI, condescension only works if the person doing the condescending has the brainpower to justify it. I'm afraid you fail on those counts sir.

[MetaReaLizard]

@Bastiat90 Sorry, I think you have mistaken pity for "condescension"; perhaps you are a little on the defensive..?

[Bastiat90]

I see condecension, but condescending people rarely see their own reflections for the rage of Caliban infects them

[MetaReaLizard]

@Bastiat90 No rage here i'm afraid... I have nothing but saddness for the scabs that turn on their own because they think there's something in it for themselves. I blame the people that have been fucking us for years, and they aren't socialists, or capitalists, or statists, or libertarians they are the banking oligarchs that create the false dichotomy, you are taking such an avid role in.

[Bastiat90]

Such vicious language towards the workers there comrade.

I know of no greater insult than to be called a defender of the bankers. For years I have protested (fat lot of good it did too) against fiat money, central banking, financial crony capitalism and the rest. As Del Boy once said, I've been as useful as a one legged man in an arse kicking contest. But I appear libertarian principles consistently. And that means saying fuck you to the banks.

[PHONEYPOLITICS]

Nigel is OK - he speaks the truth about climate change - man made pfffffffffff. joke.

[MrTolleMolle]

legend

[deelean]

Scrap the Central Bank! Get rid of the fake scam entity that creates fake money out of thin air and lending it to the government at interest - it's a scam folks.

[PHONEYPOLITICS]

@deelean its a scam that is the only thing the UK has left

[crimsoncoin]

They are experimenting on society, collaborating with occult science and corrupting history, vermin masters & average elites

[GeorgeGreekTrucker]

The idea that modern "civilized" societies don't need protectionism to survive, will be proven to be just lies when people starve and freeze to death, while Chinese make your goods.

When people are getting poor you close your borders impose tariffs on imports and issue natioanal credit (THAT IS NATIONAL CREDIT WITHOUT INTEREST AND NOT BORROWED PAPER FROM PRIVATE BANKS), to stimulate economic activity.

All the other so called solutions are just lies that lead people to poverty and enslavement.

[erelpc]

@GeorgeGreekTrucker You are so wrong. Free trade profits both sides of the exchange. In any voluntary transaction between two people that transaction won't take place if both sides don't profit from it. The same principle applies in international trade.

[jjcale1111]

They call themselves Tories... but they are just another variety of socialists

[liarpoliticians]

@jjcale1111 I'd give a million thumbs up for your comment if I could.

[TheLiberalKnight]

@liarpoliticians Lawson is not a socialist, though. He reversed Britain's economic relative decline from 1900-1980. For that, he deserves a lot of credit.

[BloodguardGorak]

"If it were really possible to substitute credit expansion (cheap money) for the accumulation of capital goods by saving, there would not be any poverty in the world."

Ludwig Von Mesis. (Educate, agitate and organise.)

[crimsoncoin]

I need a vent against the state for theyre gred theyre bullshit theyre gayness

[sinclair61]

What is crucial is....manufacturing goods that people want to buy! This smokescreen of deception is beginning to lift I feel. They have nowhere to turn anymore....the game is up.

[fdosdesign]

@sinclair61 Very true. Service industry creates no tangible wealth. Encouraging small to medium sized businesses is the only way forward especially those that manufacture real physical goods, The end of the left/right policy illusion would greatly help too. They all answer to the same puppet masters.

[coltrane1966]

Quantitative easing now credit easing and our economy is so distorted it's actually devouring itself!