I was on a low fat diet and very physically active from 10 years to 20 years of age. I didn't see a substantial loss in fat and increase in energy until I switched to lean a higher protein, low starch, healthy fat diet.
I'm not allowed to post a link apparently, but this study investigates Atkin's vs Ornish vs Food Pyramid vs ZONE. Atkin's not only allowed for the most weight loss but the subjects' lipid panels where actually improved on this diet. It doesn't say however which diet improved lipid panels by the greatest margin. There should be a JAMA study out there somewhere if somebody wants to track it down...
Gary has a child's mentality. His motivation seems to come from having to be the contrarian. I bet if the Paleo was the standard diet, he'd be arguing for vegan. And I don't know if Ornish follows his own diet recommendations, but all those legumes and grains sure haven't slowed him down mentally (how do the paleo nazis account for that?).
I love this debate but I hope everyone reads Gary Taubes books before having an opinion. The guy has done a mountain of research and this is most important. Do your homwork, read the literature and fight the system. Truth is what we all want to find.
@jkininji I'm sorry but please research. If every diet worked differently for every one then why is every grain based diet the most fattening? It probably worked for some because they had to do chronic cardio to keep weight off. If you are thin eating grains in whole wheat, it still spikes your Insulin levels. I know based off personal experience.
From what I've seen of OZ he's pretty much a pescatarian (vegatarian who eats fish)...which is certainly a healthy diet if you can afford salmon at $14 a lb....which he can of course. No one gives a crap about Okinawians and their diet...that'd be like Taubes recommending everyone eat seal blubber like the Inuits....both societies are very pure ethnically so the fact that they have little disease may come from that. Let's stick to the US and the west where the real problems are.
here's the official vegan position: IF you eat meat you MUST be eating fatty meat AND a LOT of Fat and NO carbs. These people on this thread are zealots of the worst kind...worse than religious nuts...Jerry Falwells of Veggies. They're also dishonest in that they won't come out and tell you they're vegan and their ulterior motive is to make people stop eating meat. Turds.
That 83% of those following Ornish’s program reversed heart disease is significant. The fact that Inuits, who meat industry lobbyist like WAPF use as an “example of health,” life expectancy is 43.5 years.
Not only that. All the fat they consume is "natural," and their 3rd leading cause of death(suicide is number 1) is ischemic heart disease. Sound familiar?
They're all half right. Carbohydrates and saturated fat have a negative synergistic effect. That's why Ornish's diet reverses heart disease when saturated fat is restricted and why Atkins' diet also produces favorable results. It's obvious.
@TheFirebird1951 Everythings to a certain degree. People differ, some can follow atkins better and some can follow others better. But you cannot deny that you make is difficult for yourself if you eat for example too much carbs and not enough fat and protein (given you do not exercise, which is not covered in any discussion concerning Gary's view on nutrition).
WOW dr OZ is a heart surgen? i would NEVER let him loose on me if i neede an opperation! :O he should go back to medical school with all his miss-information
People seem to be so focused on the diet end of the equation. They always say, if you want to get fat move to the suburbs. People now move less then ever. Activity or lack thereof is really the main driver in obesity. All industrialized nations are effected by this. Look at photos of school kids, particularly farm kids from the 1930's, 40's. They're consumed diets high in fat and carbs; high in calories. Yet they are all very lean and angular looking. They walked and worked and moved all day.
We know now in 2011 that many parts of the Low Carb approach are very dangerous. The low carb diets have moved more toward and eco-low carb approach; staying away from the steak, eggs, cheese and butter of the earlier low carb diets such as Atkins. So in that respect, Dr. Taubes in this video....is wrong.
@brushfour44 what low carb diet are you speaking of cause i am on one and all those things are a major thing to eat on low carb diets i buy 5 dozen eggs about every 3 to 4 days and eat tons of red meat, and butter. the only thing from that list that is recommended to stay away from is dairy or cheese
@thevansleaving How long do you plan on staying on the low carb diet? If you consume eggs, I would use the Omega-3 enriched eggs. I would use the low carb approach until you lose a good amount of weight,...and then switch to a more natural diet of whole foods. Once switched, I would put your protein at about 25% of your calories and keep about 20% of your calories Omega-3 fat. And the remaining 55% high fiber whole natural unrefined carbohydrates.
@brushfour44 thank you for the tips although i myself am not overweight the diet just makes me feel amazing and tons more energy as well as not getting heartburn or other things as such. I mostly do it because my wife does it and it makes it easier for the whole house to be on the same diet and when i feel as good as i do, i have no problem sticking to it, plus i love bacon and eggs!
@th If it works and you're not having problems with limited food choices,..and it works within the family, then that is important and means a lot. If it gets to the point where you tire of it, take whatever weightloss you achieved and move into a HEALTHY higher carb approach, while still maintaining some of the healthy fats: Canola Oil, Avacados, Flax, nuts, seeds, healthy almond--peanut butters (Naturally More), Omega-3 enriched eggs, etc. Post back at some point and let me know how it's going.
Why is this so complicated...its processed foods. The western diet is built on chemically processed wheat, soy, and corn products. The obesity rates sky rocketed when those products hit the market in the 1960's and 1970's. Both Gary Taubes and Vegan diets preach less processed foods, more whole foods. Its that simple. Vegetables, beans, oats, and humanely raised organic meat is a healthy way to eat. Yes humanely raised, just like stressed humans are unhealthy so are stressed animals.
I watched the more recent Taubes / Oz interview on YouTube yesterday. I have to say Taubes doesn't look like he's aged a bit whereas dr Oz is looking rather old now.
@JasonPMartin I noticed that as well, watching a google talk with Taubes that was actually just last week. I don't know how old he is, but he certainly doesn't look like he's aged 9 years. It's no secret that fat is important for skin care, which is mainly what makes people look old (wrinkles, sunspots, loss of elasticity).
It's Taubes against three sharks. For perspective, as with global warming, the entrenched scientific community hasn't a clue what it's doing, and has been bought off by commercial interests.
Dr. Howard is utterly wrong that "we don't have an easy way to lose weight." I am a newspaper columnist and blogger and I have been recommending Taubes' books and recommendations to my readers for about five years. I am effortlessly thin thanks to cutting out carbohydrates -- and readers who try eating this way typically drop pounds like stones off a truck. I don't need to exercise to be thin, thanks to eating bacon, eggs, cheese, steak, salami. I only exercise to maintain muscles, heart, brain.
@SusanVance310 That was the most interesting thing I learned when I studied low-carb diets: exercise being useful for weight loss is total bullshit. You exercise because it's good for your body in and of itself, it has hardly any effect on weight loss.
1/In response to Ornish, one of Dr Graham's points: The need for omega 3 fats is created by the over-consumption of omega 6 fats. Balancing 3s & 6s by adding more 3s tends to overconsumption of total fat. 2/If the physical condition of the participants is an issue, (as it seems to be for some posters), then Graham's extreme fitness wins hands-down.
@D:But there's no disagreement: 1/ 3s & 6s must be balanced for good health. 2/ 6s are more readily available than 3s in the Standard American Diet . Solutions: A/ Supplement 3s. B/ Reduce 6s. 'A' & 'B' each achieve balance. There's no argument, nothing to prove. The only other issue is that total fat calories are higher w/ 'A'. The SAD's already high-fat, & 'A' adds more. Simple math. Further conclusions are subject to dispute, but not this.
@Donal277 I'm not sure but I can tell you one thing. Sumo wrestlers don't eat alot of fat, they eat rice, how big are they? in European countries they eat alot of fatty foods, and obesity is rare. What do we use to get our pigs so fat? not fat, we feed them grain!! and look at a strip of bacon. And our government tells us that we need to eat more grain than any other food, and we wonder why we've had an obesity epidemic since they've been telling us that, which has only been in the past century.
@blackdog2k6 I think you misunderstood my question below. I was not referring to Taubes and Carbohydrate with weight loss. Merely asking about a vegan advocate and what science principles he brought to the table
@Ectomorph100 Well I disagree on height being a result of diet. But the rate at which you build muscle and repair your body is dependent upon mostly diet.
@bball11206 Taubes has a well developed jaw, Ornish does not. That's why Taubes' face looks more attractive. But that doesn't mean his diet is better. Most likely his grandparents' and parents' diet was better.
@PairoftheSocks Yes, but it can't make up for the shape of your bones. Also different people have different skin tone from the outset. Like western people's skin tone usually sucks compared to say Japanese peoples'. If you have a sucky disposition that's just bad luck. You can do your best to keep it from further degenerating, but it's impossible to make up for that in your own lifetime. Maybe future generations will profit from it, though.
@PairoftheSocks I mean the development of the jaw bones. Skin tone is a symptom of climate primarily - are you sure? How come it's so different between individuals if that is true.
@hans89 So first you said that japanese skin tone is better than western people, then you say its an individual basis. I think its obvious what i'm saying. IN GENERAL, its a result of climate.
@PairoftheSocks How come Japanese people generally have better skin tone than say Indians (I meant the Asian ones of course) even though Japan is more temperate then?
@PairoftheSocks Ah yeah, I just googled for Eskimos... check out their faces. Some have pretty damn nice skin tone! I mean younger people, not older people who have already degenerated because of harsh weather and because of a high PUFA diet. It definitely must be the climate.
just saw Taubes on Dr Oz's show and the "doctor" decided to try Gary's diet for a WHOLE day! Wow...great job Ozzie.....hey....your advice really worked for Oprah...let's all follow the lead! Actually...Oz eats a pretty good diet of healthy low carb veggies and salmon, etc...so that's fine....still...he's pretty much a shill for Big Agra like most docs out there....eat your grains kiddies!!!!! gotta keep the farm subsidies rolling for the sake of next year's budget numbers.
@bloozedaddy Oh yeah, the meat and dairy industry have no influence on people like taubes huh... If you studied most long-lived civilizations they all ate high carb mostly plant food diets.
@82Bdog No evidence Taubes gets zero dollars from any industry...besides...he just reports the findings of others. Not true of the AMA or ADA is it? They certainly receive funding from the food industry for their "studies" ....it's called "conflict of interest". And your statement about high carb long-lived civilizations is just that....no details. Besides...plant foods are generally NOT high carb...unless you get into tubers like potatoes. I eat plenty of low carb plant food...salad.
@bloozedaddy You've clearly never done any research on what the longest-lived civilizations ate. The majority of their cals came from high carb starches like potatoes or rice.
@82Bdog well you got me there 'cause I actually have a life....however....potatoes are extremely new on the scene of the diet of humans...as are grains. One doesn't need to do much research to know that....maybe you could enlighten us on the history of the Chinese Potato or something. And the rice the Chinese ate is not the same enriched / bleached rice Westerners eat..but you know that because you do "research" right? Load up on your startchy carbs....I'll eat veggies and lean meat.
@bloozedaddy So you have a life but you got time to come on youtube and be a gary taubes dickrider huh??? Anyway there is no proof once again to back up what you say about the rice. The longest-lived population ever studied was the okinawans and the majority of their calories came from sweet potatoes. Yes I will load up on my carbs and you keep eating your high fat diet but I hope you have really good genetics.
@82Bdog hehe,,,,you fool,...I don't eat a high fat diet and Taubes is just a guy who happens to be correct on many issues. I'm diabetic so I can't eat high carb foods...maybe you're like this other vegan idiot on YouTube who told me I should be eating a high carb diet to fight diabetes. I lost 60 lbs getting off the carbs. I absolutely love potatoes and pasta and rice...but they were gonna kill me. Have a nice day rube.
@bloozedaddy You are the fool here... If you don't eat many carbs what are you getting your calories from?? Either from fat or protein (i'm guessing both). Many diabetics have been cured or become much better on a whole foods diet without oils.(in other words high carb LOW fat) All your cells run on sugar the reason people on a high fat diet have problems with carbs is fat coats the cells and causes the sugar that your cells need to linger around in the blood stream and causes insulin spikes
@82Bdog Taubes is wrong on many issues. I used to think like you, but you need to research the other side of things instead of closing your mind to it. Actually read what dr.campbell,esselstyn,mcdougall,jeff novick all say about these issues. They use credible peer-reviewed studies unlike taubes
@82Bdog Never said I don't eat many carbs (why do I smell yet another Vegan Nutjob?) I just don't eat a lot of starchy carbs because they spike my blood sugar. After being diagnosed as diabetic I changed to low carb / high protien / medium fat diet and within 3 months had my blood sugar to normal readings...I take no medication, So should people listen to theorists like yourself or someone like me who actually slayed the dragon? You're way too full of yourself. VEGAN
@bloozedaddy You said you don't eat many carbs but then you say you eat a low carb diet?? As I said before if you eat alot of fat (alot of meat and adding oils to food) carbs can spike blood sugar for the reasons I stated in my last post. I ate meat most of my life and If I didnt' do the research I would still be eating a diet simlar to what you say you eat. As I said before look at the results of dr.esselstyn and mcdougall's patients. There' no theory to what I'm saying. What I say can be
@82Bdog backed up by real peer-reviewed science and simply understanding the way the human body works unlike the b.s you keep writing. You sound very full of yourself since you obviously won't look into what I told you about and are stuck in your ways. When arguing the first sign that someone is losing and can't say anything is they start calling the other person names. lol
@82Bdog typo...I meant "any" carbs....I certainly try not to eat many carbs though. I ate the kind of diet you prescribe...grains, potatoes, rice , pasta..Sorry...but I won't take your lame advice to cut out meat and "see" if high starch carbs don't spike my blood sugar. I figured out what works and I think I'll stick with that rather than make some vegans happy. Humans are omnivores...nothing vegan zealots say will ever change that fact...denial is not just a river in Egypt for some people.
@bloozedaddy Did you really?? You ate a high carb -diet with no oils at all? I don't believe you because no one gets blood sugar spikes on that diet a fat is the culprit. It's simple science and with peer-reviewed studies to back it. Your insults are very lame bro... Hopefully one day you will open your mind and read some real research instead of this paleo nonsense. No long-lived population ever studied ate the paleo way (high protein,lowcarb, high fat)
@bloozedaddy Idiot. How the hell would a JOURNALIST know more than DOCTORS and SURGEONS? Use common sense and you will realize the answer is "They don't". I lost 150lbs on a healthy diet of fruits, veggies, whole grains, and lean meat.
@Bestmoviealive correct...you have a perfectly healthy diet...I lost 60 lbs the same way...but not with much fruit outside of berries (I'm diabetic). I eat lots of chicken and ample veggies of the good kind..broccoli , cauliflower, asparagus, etc. What I don't load up on are potatoes and grains...including whole wheat pasta. It's high glycemic and spikes your insulin levels....medical fact (since you believe doctors so much). So I really don't see where we disagree. Ornish = Zealot.
@MichaelnChristine I never suggested it did, but if you think that eating less calories isn't necessary for weight loss well you're silly. I've heard Taubes try and say this and he's plain wrong. Low fat diets work from some people, low carb diets work with some people. Everyone is different trying to act like he found out some miracle diet is dumb. He also completely dismisses exercises' efficacy which is also dumb,
Jkininji, actually low fat doesn't work for anyone. Some people have food sensitivities and allergies, but we all make more insulin in response to sugar and grains.
He doesn't dismiss exercise, he just wrote that it's not effective when you eat a high carb diet. You have 2000-3000 calories of glycogen. On a carb diet, you have to burn that off BEFORE you begin to lose weight. Run 20 miles, eat a spaghetti dinner, the weight comes back.
On a high fat diet, body doesn't store excess dietary fat.
@AppleSouffle This is idiot talk, so many people have lost weight on low fat diets. Go somewhere else with this bull crap., seriously it's annoying. Literally millions of people have lost weight using high carb, low fat diets. Just look at bodybuilders, they predominately use high carb, low fat diets. Would you call any of them in contest shape fat?
@austinjt182 Keep in mind we are talking relative to what is considered low carb. And just google Olympia diet and you'll see all types of no no foods like rice potatoes etc... even oatmeal
@jkininji You missed the part where I said "cuts down" (as in when their diet is intended to help them lose fat while simultaneously holding on to as much lean tissue as possible). Oatmeal and potatoes are staples in a bodybuilder's diet during their "bulking" process because they are constantly replacing glycogen stores from lifting weights. Carbs are no doubt anabolic and can help spur an increase in muscle tissue (via insulin, IGF etc).
@jkininji (Cont.) And yes, bodybuilders may keep carbs higher in total grams during a "cutting down" phase relative the average joe but not higher in relation to their individual macronutrient ratios. And this is why your argument falls on it's face...
@austinjt182 just stop bozo, when you lose weight calories must be cut down. Seriously google any bodybuilders CONTEST diet and you will see oats, potatoes, and all of those horrible carbs. Very very few bodybuilders use low carb diets to lean out. And if we're talking about macr ratios it's still common to see carbs make up 40-60 percent of their diets. Stop drinking the low carb kool aid and use your brain.
@jkininji please show me one contest diet from one bodybuilder where their carbs make up 40% of their macros. We must be using different google engines...
@Bestmoviealive You lost 150lbs....so did I. I didn't count calories at all. I ate veg, meat and lots of fat. I didn't feel deprived ever. I didn't feel hungry ever. How about you? You watch your calories? You eat small portions? You eat lots of snacks? The problem is you and Ornish say I don't exist. You say that high-fat diets can't be healthy, can't make you lose weight. So explain how I'm possible.
The Okinawans traditionally follow a high carbohydrate diet with modest amounts of fish and pork. Their staple food is actually sweet potatoes and they seem to do just fine! They have the highest number of centenarians per capita of any country in the world. If you break down their diet it is around 80% carbohydrates.
@auggiedoggy Different people have different genetics. Northern Europeans tend to handle dairy fairly well and are completely oblivious to the fact 75% of the rest of the world is lactose intolerant.
@auggiedoggy Some pockets of human evolution are adapted for this. Most of humanity is not, sadly. I am one of the extremes. I can gain 10 pounds in a week if I eat too many carbs every day.
@hans89 Thats actually not true. Statistics show that as your diet becomes more westernized and higher in carbohydrate content and processed foods, the risk of heart disease and obesity go up. Many people actually have a lower carb diet (although not low carb) in other parts of the world and have healthier statistics. The fact is that an incredibly large portion of society is becoming insulin resistant, obese, and at risk for cardiovascular diseases. All those ailments are caused by carbohydrate
@PairoftheSocks Examples? I'll name some counter-examples. The Japanese have good longevity and a diet comparatively high in carbs and low in fat. Same about Okinawans who are renowned for their longevity. Traditional polynesians have a diet super-high in carbs. Same for traditional Mexicans. And so on. Carbs become a problem when you're insulin resistant, but they don't make you insulin resistant. If you use the right strategy, they can even lower your insulin resistance.
@hans89 Most mexican people I know have severe weight problems. Its always been known that pacific islanders and some pacific asian cultures have had high carbohydrate diets of certain kinds of food for a seriously long time leading to their toleration of it. However, native north and south americans, many europeans, and africans were never adapted to it. Which is why the rate continues to climb as more carbs per individual are consumed for those descendents.
@PairoftheSocks Do those Mexicans eat a traditional diet or a modern one? Most people most of the time had a diet high in carbohydrates. I know that for sure about my country (Germany). In the past people (except for the rich) just couldn't afford to use as much of animal products because there was no factory farming. They also didn't have vegetable oils in the quantities we have today. Where do you get the idea that the modern diet is low in fat? Actually it's full of fat.
@hans89 I never said modern diet was low in fat. However, looking at plenty of graphs, the average fat consumption has dropped per person (while a decrease in animal fats and increase in vegetable oils have occured simultaneosly). You must conclude that as time goes on, as fat consumption reaches zero, obesity will be even higher using the correlation. And i'm talking about before the invention of agriculture as a starting point.
@PairoftheSocks Before agriculture? That's pretty much speculation. What I've read about fossiled feces, paleo people actually ate lots of plants including grains and legumes. I just recently read how they found lots of different plant foods including some grains in the stomach of neandanderthalian. Even if the "paleo" crowd were right about what paleo people ate, that doesn't matter to us. Check out epigenetics. The genetic adaption to foods takes place much faster than you think.
@PairoftheSocks Examples for people who ate a diet lower in fat and then higher in fat: Piima Indians. Traditionally they ate a diet very very high in carbs. Introduce a Western diet with more fat - they get obesity and diabetis. Also the Japanese, obviously. The traditional diet contains little fat, and traditional Japanese have a very low obesity rate. Enter Western foods and much more fat - Japanese are becoming obese and acquire diabetis.
@hans89 Wrong! I have native american ancestry and the western diet consisted of sugar and flour. Before that they ate wild game and foraged. Recipes for fry bread appeared after reservations and relocation replaced them. They had to use flour to make food or they would starve. They melted the lard to fry the bread. Fat was already a huge part of their diet before hand. It was the fact they didn't have much carbs before that shows carbs are the culprate when they were introduced.
@PairoftheSocks Oh yeah, I'm sure all native Americans ate exactly the same way! You know, there is actual research on the Piima Indians, not just some fantasy about what people ate. And I'm sure the reports of the first settlers about getting corn from the Indians are just forgery.... Ummm yes, the Western diet consisted only of sugar and white flour (and nothing else apparently).... so how come you said before that people ate more fat in the past???
@hans89 Their diet PERCENTAGE wise consisted more of fat. And did you know that popcorn is one of my low carb snacks because its so high in fiber? HERP DERP Vegetables are not off the list of low carb foods buddy. I think your thinking of corn flour/meal which is a mass processed commodity that only exists in SIGNIFICANT amounts in our modern day.
@PairoftheSocks I'm not saying fat makes fat or causes diabetis. Polyunsaturated vegetable oils may well do that, but that's besides the point. The point is that the idea that the more carbs you include in a diet, the more people will become overweight or get diabetis is wrong.
@hans89 HA HA lol. Well, i'm sure insulin, inflammation, and triglyceride response wont matter either, right? Non fiber carbs always break down into sugar, which always causes a release of insulin, which always causes fat accumulation, which also always causes stress on the pancrease, which also eventually causes diabetes when stressed long enough. Fat has no insulin response, increases metabolism, and lets your body use proteins for glycogen and muscle building. Your body burns its fat in exces
@PairoftheSocks Insulin? A natural hormone in the human body. Why do you have a problem with it? It always causes fat accumulation? Nonsense, it causes your muscles to grow. How come most people who eat high carb are NOT fat if it allegedly always causes fat accumulation? Can you explain that? Your low-carb pseude science doesn't impress me much.
@hans89 To conclude the proof that fat does not make you fat. A statistical calculus look at the data shows that obesity is concave up, which means it wont reach a max and decrease or fall from the current rate. While fat consumption is concave down, which means it will reach a min of 0 at some point in the future as it continues. If fat consumption reaches 0, and obesity increases towards infinity (not really infinity as a pop percent) it has to DISPROVE that fat makes you fat.
@PairoftheSocks Umm fat consumption will reach zero? Are you kidding? Americans are eating tons of fat these day. Maybe you should check what people actually eat instead of listening to your guru. Have I ever said "fat makes you fat?" Nope... so why attack a straw man?
Either way, your argumentation is completely worthless, because it doesn't isolate variables at all.
@hans89 I see that math was not your strong point, nor your common sense of prediction. For every point in time, it shows that a slope is occuring with a type of concavity that directly contradicts what your saying. Fat consumption IS going down, obesity IS going up. Just as I eat 3000 calories a day my weight seems to be going down despite the surplus. That seems impossible but the data shows otherwise...
@PairoftheSocks I see that scientific thinking is not your strong point. Like I said, you don't isolate variables. There could be other factors, sorry, your point isn't valid at all.
So what you eat 3000kcal+? So? Other people do that and eat lots of carbs. How is that possible? The magic...
@hans89 I'm not proving anything, i'm disproving your bullshit which requires that fat be increasing in intake rather than decreasing. I cant believe your even thinking about the 3000 calories thing. That wasn't even really relevant. You missed my point completely. Your just nitpicking and nagging with isolating variables. If i'm not mistaken, isolating variables is a technique to point out correlations between two function mapped sets. I'm just pointing out the obvious non-correlation.
@PairoftheSocks Right, you're not proving anything. You never proven that fat intake has been increasing in the first place. Where is your graph? You can't believe I am thinking about the 3000 kcal thing? It's not relative? Why did you post it then? Nitpicking? Haha because I don't believe your whacky low-carb "science"? You were trying to prove a correalation between carb intake and obesity / diabetis and tried to deduct a causation. In the real world, both don't exist.
@hans89 I guess wacky is what you resort to. Even knowing posting links on youtube in a valid format is annoying. There are literally many graphs pointing out how natural fats have decreased in consumption. The only fat that has increased is unnatural fat. Which i'm not going to argue against. However, the correlation between carb intake (now this is isolating the variables) is much stronger, if not dramatically stronger. You have nicely pointed out that carbs are the majority of our diet now.
@PairoftheSocks You still haven't posted any graph. You haven't even tried to counter most of my arguments. How come some people like the Piima Indians developed obesity and diabetis en mass after abandoning their very-high-carb diet for a diet less high in carbs? How come the diet of the most famous group with great longevity, i.e. Okinavans is a high-carb diet?
Yes, I have pointed out that carbs provide the majority of calories in our diet, as they always have for thousands of years.
The same thing happened with the Mediterranean diet over here in America, it became "low-fat" when France eats 4.5x the butter we do, all cuts of meat are not trimmed of visible fat, etc. (even Anthony Colpo rolled his eyes and felt it needed to be put in "TGCC")
The same thing happened with the Mediterranean Diet over here in America. It got "low-fat" when France eats 4.5x the butter we do, all meat is eaten without trimming of visible fat, etc. It's truly sad.
Look up "okinawa diet scam" and read a physicists views on things on his blog on Google.
The same thing happened with the Mediterranean Diet over here in America. It got "low-fat" when France eats 4.5x the butter we do, all meat is eaten without trimming of visible fat, etc. It's truly sad.
@RippedtoShreds2008 OK, you can go on believing that Okinawans eat a low-carb diet if you like to. That has nothing to do with the reality things, but if you please, so, you may, of course. France isn't Okinawa anyway. I don't know how much fat a traditional French diet includes. However, if French eat 4.5 as much butter as Americans, that means exactly nothing. Americans more than make up for that in vegetable oils.
@RippedtoShreds2008 Anyway, what's your point? That some traiditional diets that were successful had a bunch of fat in them? That doesn't make them low-carb in any way. Not by a long shot.
i like how this has turned into a discussion of who's more attractive. did you all even listen to the discussion.
is that what gary's advertising now? Go on the Taube's diet and look like Gary. Don't be naive. i dont look as good as brad pitt. should i find out what he eats and eat that??
Why do they have Gary Taubes on this panel? He has no medical background, he's a journalist and he doesn't appear to have any reputable scientific sources to back his Atkins diet claims. All rhetoric and no substance.
@sirmarkthomas because he is the only one who is unbiased. Like you said he is a journalist, he isn't attached to a corporation that teaches him to follow what they want. And he does have substance, more substance than the other two on the panel, if you actually follow SCIENCE you would find he is right on the saturated fat issue.
@newy219 Not sure if you are insinuating Dr. Ornish is working for some corporate agenda. I hope not. His proven methods for reversing cardiovascular disease with diet have been tested through blind studies and he was a guest speaker at TED for which he gave the pitfalls for the Atkins/Taubes approach. I don't read Science Magazine for validity of dietary recommendations, if that's what you meant by 'SCIENCE'. Eating a heavy meat/ low carb diet won't make you healthy and science supports this.
@sirmarkthomas - I think Taubes was trying to sell a book, you know, the next Atkins scam. He is a cherry picker with zero evidence to support his claims.
Listen to Ornish and Howard and you will not have to many years left in your short life. For Ornish, later in the interview, to say that he is not used to being considered part of the "establishment" is a complete misrepresentation of his "science"
Taubes got the last word with his book. I just wish he would have discussed the nutritionally dense components of saturated fat and choleserol rich foods.
@Darkrider6970 she's actually completely wrong, saturated fat is good for you, of course she works for the America Heart Association which is one of the groups that brainwashed you
She is parroting the dogma of the American Heart Association. I would be very careful before you judge by appearances. Follow her advise, disguised as a "moderate" apprach you won't live long. She knows Taubes is right and she's hedging her bets and back tracking a little towards his theory but she will never give up the dogma.
I know this is NOT a scientific argument, so don't comment to me that it is not. I am just making an observation. Assuming that each of the people on that panel practice what they preach, I would say Gary Taubes is thriving in comparison to Dr.Ornish, Dr. Howard, and Dr. Oz. He looks like a lion compared to the other three, who look slightly better than anemic concentration camp victims. I see these almost vegetarian/vegan types in Whole Foods all the time. They always look sickly.
@alphacause agree man. watch that frontline interview where the host goes to talk to the Pritikin doctor. the doctor seriously look like a corpse. how these people think they're healthy is just baffling.
"The science is surprisingly complicated, the human body is incredibly complicated" AMEN! That's why I decided to major in maths, NOT biochemistry (or any other biological science). What's the point? No human being or institution has the intelligence or analytical methods or tools (nor will they ever) to fully understand the incredibly complicated and emergent properties of biological systems. Why even bother? They work so well without us anyway, they work even better when we DON'T intervene.
Taubes has been thoroughly vindicated, google "Stanford ATOZ study"
StatelessEuphoria 1 week ago
I was on a low fat diet and very physically active from 10 years to 20 years of age. I didn't see a substantial loss in fat and increase in energy until I switched to lean a higher protein, low starch, healthy fat diet.
nonchalantd 2 weeks ago
Taubes sounds like a guy in search of a story, not in search of health.
... stupid journalists that think they know something because they read a couple of books.
bubut99 4 weeks ago
@bubut99 Quite little fella adults talking on here.
swirty89 1 week ago
@bubut99
Um more like a decade of examining 200 years of scientific literature, idiot.
StatelessEuphoria 1 week ago
nutrition.stanford.edu/documents/AZ_press.pdf
I'm not allowed to post a link apparently, but this study investigates Atkin's vs Ornish vs Food Pyramid vs ZONE. Atkin's not only allowed for the most weight loss but the subjects' lipid panels where actually improved on this diet. It doesn't say however which diet improved lipid panels by the greatest margin. There should be a JAMA study out there somewhere if somebody wants to track it down...
austinjt182 1 month ago
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austinjt182 1 month ago
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tvGREEKdotCOM 1 month ago
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Gary has a child's mentality. His motivation seems to come from having to be the contrarian. I bet if the Paleo was the standard diet, he'd be arguing for vegan. And I don't know if Ornish follows his own diet recommendations, but all those legumes and grains sure haven't slowed him down mentally (how do the paleo nazis account for that?).
machesterman83 2 months ago
I love the sarcastic "these people are fucking idiots" grin on Gary's face. lol
jazzplayer9 2 months ago 3
I'm pretty certain from my own experience that a grain based diet isn't helpful to say the least.
Grains provide cheap calories to a massively over populated planet.
hiccup06gmailcom 3 months ago 2
I love this debate but I hope everyone reads Gary Taubes books before having an opinion. The guy has done a mountain of research and this is most important. Do your homwork, read the literature and fight the system. Truth is what we all want to find.
MrTristam 3 months ago 3
@jkininji I'm sorry but please research. If every diet worked differently for every one then why is every grain based diet the most fattening? It probably worked for some because they had to do chronic cardio to keep weight off. If you are thin eating grains in whole wheat, it still spikes your Insulin levels. I know based off personal experience.
btownshreds1 3 months ago
This bitch doesn't know jack shit
OhmgrownCron 4 months ago
Dean Ornish looks fat and flabby.
slim491958 4 months ago
low fat diets are shit
SMWhit3out 6 months ago 20
From what I've seen of OZ he's pretty much a pescatarian (vegatarian who eats fish)...which is certainly a healthy diet if you can afford salmon at $14 a lb....which he can of course. No one gives a crap about Okinawians and their diet...that'd be like Taubes recommending everyone eat seal blubber like the Inuits....both societies are very pure ethnically so the fact that they have little disease may come from that. Let's stick to the US and the west where the real problems are.
bloozedaddy 7 months ago
here's the official vegan position: IF you eat meat you MUST be eating fatty meat AND a LOT of Fat and NO carbs. These people on this thread are zealots of the worst kind...worse than religious nuts...Jerry Falwells of Veggies. They're also dishonest in that they won't come out and tell you they're vegan and their ulterior motive is to make people stop eating meat. Turds.
bloozedaddy 7 months ago
and by "not high carb" I mean that something can be 100% carb like spinach and still not be high-carb. Comprende`?
bloozedaddy 7 months ago
That 83% of those following Ornish’s program reversed heart disease is significant. The fact that Inuits, who meat industry lobbyist like WAPF use as an “example of health,” life expectancy is 43.5 years.
Not only that. All the fat they consume is "natural," and their 3rd leading cause of death(suicide is number 1) is ischemic heart disease. Sound familiar?
gyrate4 7 months ago
And, Gary, this would explain the apparent paradox you refer to on page 179 of your book "Why We Get Fat".
VitaminDisKey 7 months ago
They're all half right. Carbohydrates and saturated fat have a negative synergistic effect. That's why Ornish's diet reverses heart disease when saturated fat is restricted and why Atkins' diet also produces favorable results. It's obvious.
VitaminDisKey 7 months ago
Could it be that both approaches work, if followed conscientiously and consistently?
TheFirebird1951 7 months ago
@TheFirebird1951 Everythings to a certain degree. People differ, some can follow atkins better and some can follow others better. But you cannot deny that you make is difficult for yourself if you eat for example too much carbs and not enough fat and protein (given you do not exercise, which is not covered in any discussion concerning Gary's view on nutrition).
hethuszar01 7 months ago
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I just posted the Dr. Oz show where Gary Taubes is a guest, 2 parts, heres the first link /watch?v=GcKVr1dDV0U
ScarofKenshin 8 months ago
Gary Taubes is on top of his game.
sownzgr8 8 months ago 17
WOW dr OZ is a heart surgen? i would NEVER let him loose on me if i neede an opperation! :O he should go back to medical school with all his miss-information
thickpooxbox360 8 months ago
People seem to be so focused on the diet end of the equation. They always say, if you want to get fat move to the suburbs. People now move less then ever. Activity or lack thereof is really the main driver in obesity. All industrialized nations are effected by this. Look at photos of school kids, particularly farm kids from the 1930's, 40's. They're consumed diets high in fat and carbs; high in calories. Yet they are all very lean and angular looking. They walked and worked and moved all day.
brushfour44 8 months ago
We know now in 2011 that many parts of the Low Carb approach are very dangerous. The low carb diets have moved more toward and eco-low carb approach; staying away from the steak, eggs, cheese and butter of the earlier low carb diets such as Atkins. So in that respect, Dr. Taubes in this video....is wrong.
brushfour44 8 months ago
@brushfour44 what low carb diet are you speaking of cause i am on one and all those things are a major thing to eat on low carb diets i buy 5 dozen eggs about every 3 to 4 days and eat tons of red meat, and butter. the only thing from that list that is recommended to stay away from is dairy or cheese
thevansleaving 8 months ago
@thevansleaving How long do you plan on staying on the low carb diet? If you consume eggs, I would use the Omega-3 enriched eggs. I would use the low carb approach until you lose a good amount of weight,...and then switch to a more natural diet of whole foods. Once switched, I would put your protein at about 25% of your calories and keep about 20% of your calories Omega-3 fat. And the remaining 55% high fiber whole natural unrefined carbohydrates.
brushfour44 8 months ago
@brushfour44 thank you for the tips although i myself am not overweight the diet just makes me feel amazing and tons more energy as well as not getting heartburn or other things as such. I mostly do it because my wife does it and it makes it easier for the whole house to be on the same diet and when i feel as good as i do, i have no problem sticking to it, plus i love bacon and eggs!
thevansleaving 8 months ago
@th If it works and you're not having problems with limited food choices,..and it works within the family, then that is important and means a lot. If it gets to the point where you tire of it, take whatever weightloss you achieved and move into a HEALTHY higher carb approach, while still maintaining some of the healthy fats: Canola Oil, Avacados, Flax, nuts, seeds, healthy almond--peanut butters (Naturally More), Omega-3 enriched eggs, etc. Post back at some point and let me know how it's going.
brushfour44 8 months ago
Why is this so complicated...its processed foods. The western diet is built on chemically processed wheat, soy, and corn products. The obesity rates sky rocketed when those products hit the market in the 1960's and 1970's. Both Gary Taubes and Vegan diets preach less processed foods, more whole foods. Its that simple. Vegetables, beans, oats, and humanely raised organic meat is a healthy way to eat. Yes humanely raised, just like stressed humans are unhealthy so are stressed animals.
Jleigh225 9 months ago
I watched the more recent Taubes / Oz interview on YouTube yesterday. I have to say Taubes doesn't look like he's aged a bit whereas dr Oz is looking rather old now.
JasonPMartin 9 months ago
@JasonPMartin I noticed that as well, watching a google talk with Taubes that was actually just last week. I don't know how old he is, but he certainly doesn't look like he's aged 9 years. It's no secret that fat is important for skin care, which is mainly what makes people look old (wrinkles, sunspots, loss of elasticity).
bernlin2000 9 months ago
i agree with owen wilson, you will definitely lose weight after you die of a heart attack. It's called the posthumous diet.
trepverterr 10 months ago
Taubes took these guys to school
spencerdev91 10 months ago
Everything in science is debatable.
leviksu 10 months ago
@leviksu especially the theory saying the earth revolves around the sun, very open for debate.
Rexhungus 10 months ago
It's Taubes against three sharks. For perspective, as with global warming, the entrenched scientific community hasn't a clue what it's doing, and has been bought off by commercial interests.
paulo1149 10 months ago
@paulo1149 I wouldn't call the three of em' sharks, cuz Taubes looks like he could manhandle all three of them at once if he wanted to.
PsychopathInFoil 9 months ago
Dr. Howard is utterly wrong that "we don't have an easy way to lose weight." I am a newspaper columnist and blogger and I have been recommending Taubes' books and recommendations to my readers for about five years. I am effortlessly thin thanks to cutting out carbohydrates -- and readers who try eating this way typically drop pounds like stones off a truck. I don't need to exercise to be thin, thanks to eating bacon, eggs, cheese, steak, salami. I only exercise to maintain muscles, heart, brain.
SusanVance310 10 months ago
@SusanVance310 That was the most interesting thing I learned when I studied low-carb diets: exercise being useful for weight loss is total bullshit. You exercise because it's good for your body in and of itself, it has hardly any effect on weight loss.
bernlin2000 9 months ago
1/In response to Ornish, one of Dr Graham's points: The need for omega 3 fats is created by the over-consumption of omega 6 fats. Balancing 3s & 6s by adding more 3s tends to overconsumption of total fat. 2/If the physical condition of the participants is an issue, (as it seems to be for some posters), then Graham's extreme fitness wins hands-down.
lazur1 10 months ago
Too bad Dr. Doug Graham apparently isn't famous enough to warrant a seat at this debate.
lazur1 10 months ago
@lazur1 What science has he to back up his claims?
Donal277 10 months ago
@D:But there's no disagreement: 1/ 3s & 6s must be balanced for good health. 2/ 6s are more readily available than 3s in the Standard American Diet . Solutions: A/ Supplement 3s. B/ Reduce 6s. 'A' & 'B' each achieve balance. There's no argument, nothing to prove. The only other issue is that total fat calories are higher w/ 'A'. The SAD's already high-fat, & 'A' adds more. Simple math. Further conclusions are subject to dispute, but not this.
lazur1 10 months ago
@Donal277 I'm not sure but I can tell you one thing. Sumo wrestlers don't eat alot of fat, they eat rice, how big are they? in European countries they eat alot of fatty foods, and obesity is rare. What do we use to get our pigs so fat? not fat, we feed them grain!! and look at a strip of bacon. And our government tells us that we need to eat more grain than any other food, and we wonder why we've had an obesity epidemic since they've been telling us that, which has only been in the past century.
blackdog2k6 10 months ago
@blackdog2k6 I think you misunderstood my question below. I was not referring to Taubes and Carbohydrate with weight loss. Merely asking about a vegan advocate and what science principles he brought to the table
Donal277 9 months ago
@blackdog2k6 Do more research... Yes they do eat alot of fat. They eat alot of pork and fried foods.
82Bdog 6 months ago
@Ectomorph100 Well I disagree on height being a result of diet. But the rate at which you build muscle and repair your body is dependent upon mostly diet.
PairoftheSocks 11 months ago
Couple of things to note -
Look how much Ornish has aged in the picture from his book to this interview.
Ornish looks soft, puffy, and slothful.
Taubes looks lean and tight.
Taubes is exactly right, its just too bad that he is arguing against countless years of bogus theories that have no validity
bball11206 11 months ago
@bball11206 Taubes has a well developed jaw, Ornish does not. That's why Taubes' face looks more attractive. But that doesn't mean his diet is better. Most likely his grandparents' and parents' diet was better.
hans89 11 months ago
@hans89 Actually, exercise and diet play a role in how muscular and tone your face is.
PairoftheSocks 11 months ago
@PairoftheSocks Yes, but it can't make up for the shape of your bones. Also different people have different skin tone from the outset. Like western people's skin tone usually sucks compared to say Japanese peoples'. If you have a sucky disposition that's just bad luck. You can do your best to keep it from further degenerating, but it's impossible to make up for that in your own lifetime. Maybe future generations will profit from it, though.
hans89 11 months ago
@hans89 ??? You mean bone density? What kind of garbage have you learned? Skin tone is a symptom of climate primarily.
PairoftheSocks 11 months ago
@PairoftheSocks I mean the development of the jaw bones. Skin tone is a symptom of climate primarily - are you sure? How come it's so different between individuals if that is true.
hans89 11 months ago
@hans89 So first you said that japanese skin tone is better than western people, then you say its an individual basis. I think its obvious what i'm saying. IN GENERAL, its a result of climate.
PairoftheSocks 11 months ago
@PairoftheSocks How come Japanese people generally have better skin tone than say Indians (I meant the Asian ones of course) even though Japan is more temperate then?
hans89 11 months ago
@PairoftheSocks Ah yeah, I just googled for Eskimos... check out their faces. Some have pretty damn nice skin tone! I mean younger people, not older people who have already degenerated because of harsh weather and because of a high PUFA diet. It definitely must be the climate.
hans89 11 months ago
Ornish has a laptop to read his "facts" from. That's so unfair.
gbsnp123 11 months ago
low fat diet = death diet
RustyIronloins 11 months ago
just saw Taubes on Dr Oz's show and the "doctor" decided to try Gary's diet for a WHOLE day! Wow...great job Ozzie.....hey....your advice really worked for Oprah...let's all follow the lead! Actually...Oz eats a pretty good diet of healthy low carb veggies and salmon, etc...so that's fine....still...he's pretty much a shill for Big Agra like most docs out there....eat your grains kiddies!!!!! gotta keep the farm subsidies rolling for the sake of next year's budget numbers.
bloozedaddy 11 months ago 12
@bloozedaddy Oh yeah, the meat and dairy industry have no influence on people like taubes huh... If you studied most long-lived civilizations they all ate high carb mostly plant food diets.
82Bdog 7 months ago
@82Bdog No evidence Taubes gets zero dollars from any industry...besides...he just reports the findings of others. Not true of the AMA or ADA is it? They certainly receive funding from the food industry for their "studies" ....it's called "conflict of interest". And your statement about high carb long-lived civilizations is just that....no details. Besides...plant foods are generally NOT high carb...unless you get into tubers like potatoes. I eat plenty of low carb plant food...salad.
bloozedaddy 7 months ago
@bloozedaddy You've clearly never done any research on what the longest-lived civilizations ate. The majority of their cals came from high carb starches like potatoes or rice.
82Bdog 7 months ago
@82Bdog well you got me there 'cause I actually have a life....however....potatoes are extremely new on the scene of the diet of humans...as are grains. One doesn't need to do much research to know that....maybe you could enlighten us on the history of the Chinese Potato or something. And the rice the Chinese ate is not the same enriched / bleached rice Westerners eat..but you know that because you do "research" right? Load up on your startchy carbs....I'll eat veggies and lean meat.
bloozedaddy 7 months ago
@bloozedaddy So you have a life but you got time to come on youtube and be a gary taubes dickrider huh??? Anyway there is no proof once again to back up what you say about the rice. The longest-lived population ever studied was the okinawans and the majority of their calories came from sweet potatoes. Yes I will load up on my carbs and you keep eating your high fat diet but I hope you have really good genetics.
82Bdog 7 months ago
@82Bdog hehe,,,,you fool,...I don't eat a high fat diet and Taubes is just a guy who happens to be correct on many issues. I'm diabetic so I can't eat high carb foods...maybe you're like this other vegan idiot on YouTube who told me I should be eating a high carb diet to fight diabetes. I lost 60 lbs getting off the carbs. I absolutely love potatoes and pasta and rice...but they were gonna kill me. Have a nice day rube.
bloozedaddy 7 months ago
@bloozedaddy You are the fool here... If you don't eat many carbs what are you getting your calories from?? Either from fat or protein (i'm guessing both). Many diabetics have been cured or become much better on a whole foods diet without oils.(in other words high carb LOW fat) All your cells run on sugar the reason people on a high fat diet have problems with carbs is fat coats the cells and causes the sugar that your cells need to linger around in the blood stream and causes insulin spikes
82Bdog 7 months ago
@82Bdog Taubes is wrong on many issues. I used to think like you, but you need to research the other side of things instead of closing your mind to it. Actually read what dr.campbell,esselstyn,mcdougall,jeff novick all say about these issues. They use credible peer-reviewed studies unlike taubes
82Bdog 7 months ago
@82Bdog Never said I don't eat many carbs (why do I smell yet another Vegan Nutjob?) I just don't eat a lot of starchy carbs because they spike my blood sugar. After being diagnosed as diabetic I changed to low carb / high protien / medium fat diet and within 3 months had my blood sugar to normal readings...I take no medication, So should people listen to theorists like yourself or someone like me who actually slayed the dragon? You're way too full of yourself. VEGAN
bloozedaddy 7 months ago
@bloozedaddy You said you don't eat many carbs but then you say you eat a low carb diet?? As I said before if you eat alot of fat (alot of meat and adding oils to food) carbs can spike blood sugar for the reasons I stated in my last post. I ate meat most of my life and If I didnt' do the research I would still be eating a diet simlar to what you say you eat. As I said before look at the results of dr.esselstyn and mcdougall's patients. There' no theory to what I'm saying. What I say can be
82Bdog 6 months ago
@82Bdog backed up by real peer-reviewed science and simply understanding the way the human body works unlike the b.s you keep writing. You sound very full of yourself since you obviously won't look into what I told you about and are stuck in your ways. When arguing the first sign that someone is losing and can't say anything is they start calling the other person names. lol
82Bdog 6 months ago
@82Bdog typo...I meant "any" carbs....I certainly try not to eat many carbs though. I ate the kind of diet you prescribe...grains, potatoes, rice , pasta..Sorry...but I won't take your lame advice to cut out meat and "see" if high starch carbs don't spike my blood sugar. I figured out what works and I think I'll stick with that rather than make some vegans happy. Humans are omnivores...nothing vegan zealots say will ever change that fact...denial is not just a river in Egypt for some people.
bloozedaddy 6 months ago
@bloozedaddy Did you really?? You ate a high carb -diet with no oils at all? I don't believe you because no one gets blood sugar spikes on that diet a fat is the culprit. It's simple science and with peer-reviewed studies to back it. Your insults are very lame bro... Hopefully one day you will open your mind and read some real research instead of this paleo nonsense. No long-lived population ever studied ate the paleo way (high protein,lowcarb, high fat)
82Bdog 6 months ago
@82Bdog
'No long-lived population ever studied ate the paleo way (high protein,lowcarb, high fat)'
Ever heard of the Inuits?
gorillasocks 6 months ago
@gorillasocks Sure have and they had a average life expectancy in the 30's
82Bdog 6 months ago
@bloozedaddy Idiot. How the hell would a JOURNALIST know more than DOCTORS and SURGEONS? Use common sense and you will realize the answer is "They don't". I lost 150lbs on a healthy diet of fruits, veggies, whole grains, and lean meat.
Bestmoviealive 5 months ago
@Bestmoviealive correct...you have a perfectly healthy diet...I lost 60 lbs the same way...but not with much fruit outside of berries (I'm diabetic). I eat lots of chicken and ample veggies of the good kind..broccoli , cauliflower, asparagus, etc. What I don't load up on are potatoes and grains...including whole wheat pasta. It's high glycemic and spikes your insulin levels....medical fact (since you believe doctors so much). So I really don't see where we disagree. Ornish = Zealot.
bloozedaddy 5 months ago
@Bestmoviealive when you're that fat eating less and moving more really does work
jkininji 4 months ago
@jkininji Yes but it doesn't work by "burning calories" it does it by correcting hormone balance.
MichaelnChristine 3 months ago
@MichaelnChristine I never suggested it did, but if you think that eating less calories isn't necessary for weight loss well you're silly. I've heard Taubes try and say this and he's plain wrong. Low fat diets work from some people, low carb diets work with some people. Everyone is different trying to act like he found out some miracle diet is dumb. He also completely dismisses exercises' efficacy which is also dumb,
jkininji 3 months ago
Jkininji, actually low fat doesn't work for anyone. Some people have food sensitivities and allergies, but we all make more insulin in response to sugar and grains.
He doesn't dismiss exercise, he just wrote that it's not effective when you eat a high carb diet. You have 2000-3000 calories of glycogen. On a carb diet, you have to burn that off BEFORE you begin to lose weight. Run 20 miles, eat a spaghetti dinner, the weight comes back.
On a high fat diet, body doesn't store excess dietary fat.
AppleSouffle 2 months ago 3
@AppleSouffle This is idiot talk, so many people have lost weight on low fat diets. Go somewhere else with this bull crap., seriously it's annoying. Literally millions of people have lost weight using high carb, low fat diets. Just look at bodybuilders, they predominately use high carb, low fat diets. Would you call any of them in contest shape fat?
jkininji 2 months ago
@jkininji show me 1 bodybuilder who cuts down for a contest on a "high carb" diet...
austinjt182 1 month ago
@austinjt182 Keep in mind we are talking relative to what is considered low carb. And just google Olympia diet and you'll see all types of no no foods like rice potatoes etc... even oatmeal
jkininji 1 month ago
@jkininji You missed the part where I said "cuts down" (as in when their diet is intended to help them lose fat while simultaneously holding on to as much lean tissue as possible). Oatmeal and potatoes are staples in a bodybuilder's diet during their "bulking" process because they are constantly replacing glycogen stores from lifting weights. Carbs are no doubt anabolic and can help spur an increase in muscle tissue (via insulin, IGF etc).
austinjt182 1 month ago
@jkininji (Cont.) And yes, bodybuilders may keep carbs higher in total grams during a "cutting down" phase relative the average joe but not higher in relation to their individual macronutrient ratios. And this is why your argument falls on it's face...
austinjt182 1 month ago
@austinjt182 just stop bozo, when you lose weight calories must be cut down. Seriously google any bodybuilders CONTEST diet and you will see oats, potatoes, and all of those horrible carbs. Very very few bodybuilders use low carb diets to lean out. And if we're talking about macr ratios it's still common to see carbs make up 40-60 percent of their diets. Stop drinking the low carb kool aid and use your brain.
jkininji 1 month ago
@jkininji please show me one contest diet from one bodybuilder where their carbs make up 40% of their macros. We must be using different google engines...
austinjt182 1 month ago
@Bestmoviealive You lost 150lbs....so did I. I didn't count calories at all. I ate veg, meat and lots of fat. I didn't feel deprived ever. I didn't feel hungry ever. How about you? You watch your calories? You eat small portions? You eat lots of snacks? The problem is you and Ornish say I don't exist. You say that high-fat diets can't be healthy, can't make you lose weight. So explain how I'm possible.
MichaelnChristine 3 months ago
Why must it be 'vs.'? What's wrong with a lowfat/good fat/low carb diet? Why do people who go low carb have to chow on pure bacon? They don't.
gphx 11 months ago
I think we are all in agreement on the fact of
"Gary Taubes is a f*cking BOSS!"
Goatacon 1 year ago
The Okinawans traditionally follow a high carbohydrate diet with modest amounts of fish and pork. Their staple food is actually sweet potatoes and they seem to do just fine! They have the highest number of centenarians per capita of any country in the world. If you break down their diet it is around 80% carbohydrates.
auggiedoggy 1 year ago
@auggiedoggy Different people have different genetics. Northern Europeans tend to handle dairy fairly well and are completely oblivious to the fact 75% of the rest of the world is lactose intolerant.
gphx 11 months ago
@gphx : Yes, I know. I have the lactase enzyme. My point is that there isn't a single "correct" diet.
auggiedoggy 11 months ago
@auggiedoggy You make an excellent point.
gphx 11 months ago
@auggiedoggy Some pockets of human evolution are adapted for this. Most of humanity is not, sadly. I am one of the extremes. I can gain 10 pounds in a week if I eat too many carbs every day.
PairoftheSocks 11 months ago
@PairoftheSocks Some pockets? Most humans eat most of their calories as carbs, and most humans are not obese...
hans89 11 months ago
@hans89 Thats actually not true. Statistics show that as your diet becomes more westernized and higher in carbohydrate content and processed foods, the risk of heart disease and obesity go up. Many people actually have a lower carb diet (although not low carb) in other parts of the world and have healthier statistics. The fact is that an incredibly large portion of society is becoming insulin resistant, obese, and at risk for cardiovascular diseases. All those ailments are caused by carbohydrate
PairoftheSocks 11 months ago
@PairoftheSocks Examples? I'll name some counter-examples. The Japanese have good longevity and a diet comparatively high in carbs and low in fat. Same about Okinawans who are renowned for their longevity. Traditional polynesians have a diet super-high in carbs. Same for traditional Mexicans. And so on. Carbs become a problem when you're insulin resistant, but they don't make you insulin resistant. If you use the right strategy, they can even lower your insulin resistance.
hans89 11 months ago
@hans89 Most mexican people I know have severe weight problems. Its always been known that pacific islanders and some pacific asian cultures have had high carbohydrate diets of certain kinds of food for a seriously long time leading to their toleration of it. However, native north and south americans, many europeans, and africans were never adapted to it. Which is why the rate continues to climb as more carbs per individual are consumed for those descendents.
PairoftheSocks 11 months ago
@PairoftheSocks Do those Mexicans eat a traditional diet or a modern one? Most people most of the time had a diet high in carbohydrates. I know that for sure about my country (Germany). In the past people (except for the rich) just couldn't afford to use as much of animal products because there was no factory farming. They also didn't have vegetable oils in the quantities we have today. Where do you get the idea that the modern diet is low in fat? Actually it's full of fat.
hans89 11 months ago
@hans89 I never said modern diet was low in fat. However, looking at plenty of graphs, the average fat consumption has dropped per person (while a decrease in animal fats and increase in vegetable oils have occured simultaneosly). You must conclude that as time goes on, as fat consumption reaches zero, obesity will be even higher using the correlation. And i'm talking about before the invention of agriculture as a starting point.
PairoftheSocks 11 months ago
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hans89 11 months ago
@PairoftheSocks Before agriculture? That's pretty much speculation. What I've read about fossiled feces, paleo people actually ate lots of plants including grains and legumes. I just recently read how they found lots of different plant foods including some grains in the stomach of neandanderthalian. Even if the "paleo" crowd were right about what paleo people ate, that doesn't matter to us. Check out epigenetics. The genetic adaption to foods takes place much faster than you think.
hans89 11 months ago
@hans89 Their diet was highly fiberous and mostly meat. Historical migration patterns prove this as we followed herds of animals.
PairoftheSocks 11 months ago
@PairoftheSocks Examples for people who ate a diet lower in fat and then higher in fat: Piima Indians. Traditionally they ate a diet very very high in carbs. Introduce a Western diet with more fat - they get obesity and diabetis. Also the Japanese, obviously. The traditional diet contains little fat, and traditional Japanese have a very low obesity rate. Enter Western foods and much more fat - Japanese are becoming obese and acquire diabetis.
hans89 11 months ago
@hans89 Wrong! I have native american ancestry and the western diet consisted of sugar and flour. Before that they ate wild game and foraged. Recipes for fry bread appeared after reservations and relocation replaced them. They had to use flour to make food or they would starve. They melted the lard to fry the bread. Fat was already a huge part of their diet before hand. It was the fact they didn't have much carbs before that shows carbs are the culprate when they were introduced.
PairoftheSocks 11 months ago
@PairoftheSocks Oh yeah, I'm sure all native Americans ate exactly the same way! You know, there is actual research on the Piima Indians, not just some fantasy about what people ate. And I'm sure the reports of the first settlers about getting corn from the Indians are just forgery.... Ummm yes, the Western diet consisted only of sugar and white flour (and nothing else apparently).... so how come you said before that people ate more fat in the past???
hans89 11 months ago
@hans89 Their diet PERCENTAGE wise consisted more of fat. And did you know that popcorn is one of my low carb snacks because its so high in fiber? HERP DERP Vegetables are not off the list of low carb foods buddy. I think your thinking of corn flour/meal which is a mass processed commodity that only exists in SIGNIFICANT amounts in our modern day.
PairoftheSocks 11 months ago
@PairoftheSocks hahaha so popcorm is low carb = low in carbs because it is high in fiber? Nice logic.
hans89 11 months ago
@PairoftheSocks I'm not saying fat makes fat or causes diabetis. Polyunsaturated vegetable oils may well do that, but that's besides the point. The point is that the idea that the more carbs you include in a diet, the more people will become overweight or get diabetis is wrong.
hans89 11 months ago
@hans89 HA HA lol. Well, i'm sure insulin, inflammation, and triglyceride response wont matter either, right? Non fiber carbs always break down into sugar, which always causes a release of insulin, which always causes fat accumulation, which also always causes stress on the pancrease, which also eventually causes diabetes when stressed long enough. Fat has no insulin response, increases metabolism, and lets your body use proteins for glycogen and muscle building. Your body burns its fat in exces
PairoftheSocks 11 months ago
@PairoftheSocks Insulin? A natural hormone in the human body. Why do you have a problem with it? It always causes fat accumulation? Nonsense, it causes your muscles to grow. How come most people who eat high carb are NOT fat if it allegedly always causes fat accumulation? Can you explain that? Your low-carb pseude science doesn't impress me much.
hans89 11 months ago
@hans89 To conclude the proof that fat does not make you fat. A statistical calculus look at the data shows that obesity is concave up, which means it wont reach a max and decrease or fall from the current rate. While fat consumption is concave down, which means it will reach a min of 0 at some point in the future as it continues. If fat consumption reaches 0, and obesity increases towards infinity (not really infinity as a pop percent) it has to DISPROVE that fat makes you fat.
PairoftheSocks 11 months ago
@PairoftheSocks Umm fat consumption will reach zero? Are you kidding? Americans are eating tons of fat these day. Maybe you should check what people actually eat instead of listening to your guru. Have I ever said "fat makes you fat?" Nope... so why attack a straw man?
Either way, your argumentation is completely worthless, because it doesn't isolate variables at all.
hans89 11 months ago
@hans89 I see that math was not your strong point, nor your common sense of prediction. For every point in time, it shows that a slope is occuring with a type of concavity that directly contradicts what your saying. Fat consumption IS going down, obesity IS going up. Just as I eat 3000 calories a day my weight seems to be going down despite the surplus. That seems impossible but the data shows otherwise...
PairoftheSocks 11 months ago
@PairoftheSocks I see that scientific thinking is not your strong point. Like I said, you don't isolate variables. There could be other factors, sorry, your point isn't valid at all.
So what you eat 3000kcal+? So? Other people do that and eat lots of carbs. How is that possible? The magic...
hans89 11 months ago
@hans89 I'm not proving anything, i'm disproving your bullshit which requires that fat be increasing in intake rather than decreasing. I cant believe your even thinking about the 3000 calories thing. That wasn't even really relevant. You missed my point completely. Your just nitpicking and nagging with isolating variables. If i'm not mistaken, isolating variables is a technique to point out correlations between two function mapped sets. I'm just pointing out the obvious non-correlation.
PairoftheSocks 11 months ago
@PairoftheSocks Right, you're not proving anything. You never proven that fat intake has been increasing in the first place. Where is your graph? You can't believe I am thinking about the 3000 kcal thing? It's not relative? Why did you post it then? Nitpicking? Haha because I don't believe your whacky low-carb "science"? You were trying to prove a correalation between carb intake and obesity / diabetis and tried to deduct a causation. In the real world, both don't exist.
hans89 11 months ago
@hans89 I guess wacky is what you resort to. Even knowing posting links on youtube in a valid format is annoying. There are literally many graphs pointing out how natural fats have decreased in consumption. The only fat that has increased is unnatural fat. Which i'm not going to argue against. However, the correlation between carb intake (now this is isolating the variables) is much stronger, if not dramatically stronger. You have nicely pointed out that carbs are the majority of our diet now.
PairoftheSocks 11 months ago
@PairoftheSocks You still haven't posted any graph. You haven't even tried to counter most of my arguments. How come some people like the Piima Indians developed obesity and diabetis en mass after abandoning their very-high-carb diet for a diet less high in carbs? How come the diet of the most famous group with great longevity, i.e. Okinavans is a high-carb diet?
Yes, I have pointed out that carbs provide the majority of calories in our diet, as they always have for thousands of years.
hans89 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@hans89
stan-heretic.blogspot.com/2009/10/beware-of-okinawa-diet-scam.html
The same thing happened with the Mediterranean diet over here in America, it became "low-fat" when France eats 4.5x the butter we do, all cuts of meat are not trimmed of visible fat, etc. (even Anthony Colpo rolled his eyes and felt it needed to be put in "TGCC")
RippedtoShreds2008 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@hans89
stan-heretic.blogspot.com/2009/10/beware-of-okinawa-diet-scam.html
The same thing happened with the Mediterranean Diet over here in America. It got "low-fat" when France eats 4.5x the butter we do, all meat is eaten without trimming of visible fat, etc. It's truly sad.
RippedtoShreds2008 10 months ago
@hans89
Look up "okinawa diet scam" and read a physicists views on things on his blog on Google.
The same thing happened with the Mediterranean Diet over here in America. It got "low-fat" when France eats 4.5x the butter we do, all meat is eaten without trimming of visible fat, etc. It's truly sad.
RippedtoShreds2008 10 months ago
@RippedtoShreds2008 OK, you can go on believing that Okinawans eat a low-carb diet if you like to. That has nothing to do with the reality things, but if you please, so, you may, of course. France isn't Okinawa anyway. I don't know how much fat a traditional French diet includes. However, if French eat 4.5 as much butter as Americans, that means exactly nothing. Americans more than make up for that in vegetable oils.
hans89 10 months ago
@RippedtoShreds2008 Anyway, what's your point? That some traiditional diets that were successful had a bunch of fat in them? That doesn't make them low-carb in any way. Not by a long shot.
hans89 10 months ago
@hans89 But despite me agreeing with one point. The overall concavity is still down. Which directly contradicts your supposed direct correlation.
PairoftheSocks 11 months ago
@Ectomorph100 take a look at him 7 years later
bc681527 1 year ago
i like how this has turned into a discussion of who's more attractive. did you all even listen to the discussion.
is that what gary's advertising now? Go on the Taube's diet and look like Gary. Don't be naive. i dont look as good as brad pitt. should i find out what he eats and eat that??
platinumat 1 year ago
Dean ornish looks terrible.
alickamoso1 1 year ago
@alickamoso1 look at gary 7 years latter
bc681527 1 year ago
Yo, dude brought a heart.. screw your diagrams and illustration. Disagree with this bitches. Yes people died during the filming of this program.
erg0207 1 year ago
"ooohhh yes wee do!" lol
biggab204 1 year ago
jpkabler, you're exactly right. And I know that Taubes and Ornish, at least, eat according to their respective philosophies.
psychohist 1 year ago
I know this isn't at all scientific, but am I the only one who thinks Taubes looks much, much healthier than the other panel members.
jpkabler 1 year ago 7
Why do they have Gary Taubes on this panel? He has no medical background, he's a journalist and he doesn't appear to have any reputable scientific sources to back his Atkins diet claims. All rhetoric and no substance.
sirmarkthomas 1 year ago
@sirmarkthomas because he is the only one who is unbiased. Like you said he is a journalist, he isn't attached to a corporation that teaches him to follow what they want. And he does have substance, more substance than the other two on the panel, if you actually follow SCIENCE you would find he is right on the saturated fat issue.
newy219 1 year ago
@newy219 Not sure if you are insinuating Dr. Ornish is working for some corporate agenda. I hope not. His proven methods for reversing cardiovascular disease with diet have been tested through blind studies and he was a guest speaker at TED for which he gave the pitfalls for the Atkins/Taubes approach. I don't read Science Magazine for validity of dietary recommendations, if that's what you meant by 'SCIENCE'. Eating a heavy meat/ low carb diet won't make you healthy and science supports this.
sirmarkthomas 1 year ago
@sirmarkthomas - I think Taubes was trying to sell a book, you know, the next Atkins scam. He is a cherry picker with zero evidence to support his claims.
spgtenor 1 year ago
who ever listens to these idiots deserves to die .
gledalac1979 1 year ago
ha now look what a douche Oz is now with his wife and her useless 'distance healing'
lockwoodisafaggot 1 year ago
Listen to Ornish and Howard and you will not have to many years left in your short life. For Ornish, later in the interview, to say that he is not used to being considered part of the "establishment" is a complete misrepresentation of his "science"
Taubes got the last word with his book. I just wish he would have discussed the nutritionally dense components of saturated fat and choleserol rich foods.
Westonaprice . org
busybuzzbuzz 1 year ago
ornish has "carb" cheeks
bonobonober 1 year ago 2
the grandma knows what she is saying.
Darkrider6970 1 year ago
@Darkrider6970 she's actually completely wrong, saturated fat is good for you, of course she works for the America Heart Association which is one of the groups that brainwashed you
newy219 1 year ago
@Darkrider6970
She is parroting the dogma of the American Heart Association. I would be very careful before you judge by appearances. Follow her advise, disguised as a "moderate" apprach you won't live long. She knows Taubes is right and she's hedging her bets and back tracking a little towards his theory but she will never give up the dogma.
busybuzzbuzz 1 year ago
Who the hell brings a real human heart to an interview? WHAT THE HELL
futoncat 1 year ago 8
I know this is NOT a scientific argument, so don't comment to me that it is not. I am just making an observation. Assuming that each of the people on that panel practice what they preach, I would say Gary Taubes is thriving in comparison to Dr.Ornish, Dr. Howard, and Dr. Oz. He looks like a lion compared to the other three, who look slightly better than anemic concentration camp victims. I see these almost vegetarian/vegan types in Whole Foods all the time. They always look sickly.
alphacause 1 year ago 15
@alphacause agree man. watch that frontline interview where the host goes to talk to the Pritikin doctor. the doctor seriously look like a corpse. how these people think they're healthy is just baffling.
griffonstink 9 months ago
macadami nut oil is mono and its great for cooking
dscheller77 1 year ago
lol Taubes is like "why am I wasting time with these brainwashed idiots?"
mikek241 1 year ago 59
LOL, he had an actual human heart on him! that was hilarious.
Pelonetillo 1 year ago
OZ is the lord of cock dogs
greeniem 1 year ago 4
@Vivalarachie this isn't really a debate about what's awesome for cooking...it's about tackling obesity
endtroducing 1 year ago
lol dean and the other lady look sickly while gary looks lean and healthy
Freedish911 1 year ago 6
Look at Dean Ornish, he looks like shit. Why would I listen to someone who looks like that?
xxdiogenescynicxx 1 year ago
i always look at the author to get a feel for whats going down. Glasses are not a good sign. Pefect jaw vs crooked one. Hmmm. You are what you eat.
roottruthseeker 1 year ago
@roottruthseeker You judge a diet author on the fact he needs glasses?
SpeedoJoe 1 year ago
I love how this guy can't even get through his introductions without his bias showing like some slut's thong underwear.
MrMZaccone 1 year ago
"The science is surprisingly complicated, the human body is incredibly complicated" AMEN! That's why I decided to major in maths, NOT biochemistry (or any other biological science). What's the point? No human being or institution has the intelligence or analytical methods or tools (nor will they ever) to fully understand the incredibly complicated and emergent properties of biological systems. Why even bother? They work so well without us anyway, they work even better when we DON'T intervene.
superheronumber1 1 year ago