Mozarab were the christians in muslim Spain (Al-Andalus). An Hispanic "arabized" but christian. For this reason we can see the "oriental" influence in the music.
This is clearly of Byzantine influence - somehow. The voice production - nasal tone, and embellishment, is a dead give-away. Now this may be the cantor's background or it may be lost in the history of the chant and the Spanish liturgy.
@gjlander100 Yes, I am wondering also about a Byzantine influence... If you should find out more about this, would you please share it with me? Thanks!
eastern christians are the byzantines or not? pope gregorius the I ,AND OLD ROMAN CHURCH WAS ANDER THE BYZANTINES OR NOT?? actualy wan historians talk about romans they mean byzantines (the eastern roman empair). i dont wand to say that this hymn is a byzantine hymn, bat is clear the byzantine influens in this hymn. it is myn opinion
@homocorpus Hispanic liturgy is smilar to Orthodox liturgy since it kepp old liturgical traditions. Byzantines didnt exist is modern name that historians gave to the last phase of the Roman Empire. They were Romans and it was called Roman Empire or Imperium Romanum or Land of the Romans or Rum or Romania nothing to do with Vlachs
@ImperialGuard9001 eastern ROMAN EMPIRE is the byzantine empire .i know this name (byzantine )is a modern term but after constantine the great .roman empire is an other empire.
"East and West viewed things differently from an early date. I think the real problem developed when each side--East and West, sought to impose the regional theology of their local Fathers on the rest of the Church. This is especially true with respect to the discussion about the procession of the Holy Spirit."
Except that the East actually had the right to do that, because it wrote THE dogmatic definition on the procession of the Holy Spirit, the Creed.
....all you guys debating the theology.....tut tut. Enjoy the sound! I am atheist and happy that way - nevertheless these pieces cannot fail to impress in their calm beauty nor their ability to conjure up a distant past. I add these nuances to my burgeoning and vast mental music collection and revel in my ability to disregard their often very divisive origins. Live in love people. :)
it is almos a byzantine hymn ,it is not by gotths or bandals this music, it is not by arabs, it is from byzantines who rule the spain and ole maditeranian sea , also old roman hymns and gregorian hymns are from byzantine hymnology . the byzantine sivilisation is the mother of romanic and gothic sivilisation
@homocorpus No it isn't. the Mozoarabs was a term used to describe Christians who lived under Islamic rule in the Iberia (Spain and Portugal). It was a mix between Eastern Christine/Levantine/Latin Roman and Visigothic music. The same elements that compromise the modern day state of Spain and Portugal. There's a reason why this sort of Music was not common outside the Iberian Peninsula.
It is a free performance, perhaps too free. Only 24 original melodies of authentic mozarabic chant have been conserved because they were written down using diastematic notation. All these melodies belong to the Office for the deaths and Lamentations of Jeremiah, precisely because they were frequently used in monastic communities. All the rest is lost. The ""mozarabic"" chant which has remained in Toledo is completely unnauthentic and was compiled in the XV century by Cisneros.
No, marioalassio, no es verdad. Yo vivo en Madrid.
The mozarabic chant usually used in Toledo nowadays is not the original chant. If one compares simply the number of notes written for example in the Antiphonary of Leon and the cisnerian chant it is evident that the music reedited in the XVI century is not the same music which was sung before the XI century.
These chants belongs Hispano-visigothics ritual of Latin Roman Catholics, 5 th or 6 Century ( very very old). When Spain was part of Rome Imperium decaded
Regarding the question about clear differences between East and West. The answer is yes. Ecumenical councils were the guidance of the 1st millenium. In the early Ecumenical councils the prescence was perhaps an average of 80% Eastern. For Nicaea there were only 2 western clerics attending. It often took at least 80 years longer for an ecumenical council to be recognized in the west. Cenobitic monasticism took 200 years longer to reach the west. Paganism among romans lasted longer in the west.
We can note differences in theology between East and West in the first millenium. The theology of the latin fathers is different. St. Augustine wasn't read in the East. There were councils like the Trullan that were never accepted in the West, and were 100% Eastern bishops.
I think the schism was a consequence of the misundestandings rather than the starting point.
St Augustine was and is still read and quoted in the East, because theologically he belongs to the tradition of the East, the Apophatic tradition. Also, it is normal that fewer latin bishops would be present in E.C. since (1) travelling at that era was not easy (2) christianity was more prominent and organised in the East than in the West with all the barbarian invasions of pagan nations. However...
Thanks for the information. I was tought otherwise about St. Augustine in the East, and also there are some Easter Orthodox pages that say different things about St. Augustine. Anyways my point was that he's not the basis of Eastern theology. And my biggest point was that cultural differences existed at that time between East and West, as you said, travelling was not easy, othe languages, other culture (at least partially). I don't want to argue with you. Thanks.
The Papal legate, who sat on the Popes seat, was offered special treatment and deference. For example: In the Council of Chalcedon, on Papal demand the Tome of Leo was adopted and Dioscorus was condemned, even though his cyrillic Christology was a tad less ambiguous than the Tome of Leo. During the Iconoclastic period, again the Pope's position favouring icons prevailed (which was correct and dogmatically sound)...
There are many examples of Emperors, both before and after the schism, who were anxious of maintaining a good relation with the Papacy, even if the representation of the Pope in the Imperial court was usually non-existent. West might not be represented often, but it had the first of the Pentarchy and that mattered rather a lot back then.
Ensemble Organum. And by the way, the lead singer is Lycourgos Angelopoulos, who is a chanter of Byzantine music, maybe that's why the style is seemingly byzantine like (much vibrato). However, the piece does not sound byzantine, it just has a slight "fragrance" because of the lead singer and the Ensemble's style.
I know what false group you're reffering to. I had some bad experiences with them. They just falsify History pretending that Christianity in Hispania was theologically the same as the Eastern Christianity till XI century (the Great Schism).
Yes. I have many recordings of Mozarabic chant. I like them all. This might seem a bit byzantine, but not too much. It is a possible interpretation of the chants.
Do you believe that there were so clear differences between East and West up to 11th century? Mediterranean sea was the common place. Shouldn't we assume that in art & theology there was common basis?
There differences, but Schisma did them worse -in all fields.
East and West viewed things differently from an early date. I think the real problem developed when each side--East and West, sought to impose the regional theology of their local Fathers on the rest of the Church. This is especially true with respect to the discussion about the procession of the Holy Spirit.
@gbmtmas I think it is a barrier of language that caused it. Greek and Latin seem to be saying the exact same thing though in different language. May God bring all into the One fold again.
There were some differences, but rather than the common geography of the mediterranean for most parts, the difference was one of language and culture: latin vs greek, some particular ways to express the faith: different liturgy, different gestures, and a theology bases upon the latin father like St. Augustine (something very similar to what happened with copts and syriacs: differences like these were exacerbated by both sides).
Oh my God!! this is the same music you can hear in Tunisia, Morrocco and Algeria it's called Maluf and it's from Indalusia they say!! what's this music plz and where is it from
Indeed, your comparison is as interesting as it is valid. Mozarabic chants are Iberian. However, they are inherited from the Visigoths, who ruled spain and north africa, hence the connection. Of course the Morrocan one is also influenced by Arabic melisma.
@designedsayer I think you're taking what you say lightly while people can be offended by what you say.. I don't believe that the teaching of jesus consist on making fun of the other religions and their symbols.. so plz consider the holy caracter of the video we're posting for and remove this comment that could trigger hatered..
@hamdoudou1 You're losing your belief in Absolute truth.
There could be only one true religion, or absolute truth doesn't exist, or you could be like the Hindus who say that every religion, which disagree with themselves, all lead to God via different ways, or you could just say nothing is true, which doesn't make sense because for that saying to be true,it would have to be false.
@ScapularSaves Before Cluny Cister and the Gregorian Reformation there wasnt realy a unified Catholic world it was a type of Christianity according to each nation or kingdmon traditions culture language like Anglo Saxon Irish Frank Visigothic etc this influence a lot in the liturgy the Mozarabic come from Visigoth or Hispanic liturgy since they were under the Muslim they become isolated from rest of christians and never had Gregorian Reformation and kepp old traditions thats why is more smilar
@ScapularSaves Spain was Orthodox before the schism. The council of Burgos destroyed Hispania's remaining independence from Rome. "Mozarabic" was originally a slur used towards the indigenous Romano-Gothic populace and practices of Spain, to justify their switch to the roman rite. Gradually, the people who preserved these practices were "Mozarabs". As often happens with nomenclature, eventually they considered it a badge of honor.
You are quite right, most of them are images of the Apocalypse from the Beatus, except one or two (for example the micrography shown on the first slide is actually from Liber Ordinum). They are all more or less samples of mozarabic art.
Mozarab were the christians in muslim Spain (Al-Andalus). An Hispanic "arabized" but christian. For this reason we can see the "oriental" influence in the music.
bokeronbreakz 5 months ago
@bokeronbreakz This is incorrect.
joesuaiden 1 month ago
This is clearly of Byzantine influence - somehow. The voice production - nasal tone, and embellishment, is a dead give-away. Now this may be the cantor's background or it may be lost in the history of the chant and the Spanish liturgy.
gjlander100 6 months ago
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@gjlander100
"And by the way, the lead singer is Lycourgos Angelopoulos, who is a chanter of Byzantine music..."
read the comments before you speak.
Rao665 5 months ago
@gjlander100 Yes, I am wondering also about a Byzantine influence... If you should find out more about this, would you please share it with me? Thanks!
Edithalba1844 5 months ago
Have you told this view to the Monastery of Santo Domingo de Silos? If so what was their response? Are you Spanish?
ScapularSaves 8 months ago
@Callixtinus, how do you get that very beautiful floating effect for all your icons. How do you time the changes from one icon to the next?
metavoia 1 year ago
the singer of this hymn is mr lykoyrgos agellopoulos , he is an orthodox church singer ... he is a master of byzantine music........
homocorpus 1 year ago
eastern christians are the byzantines or not? pope gregorius the I ,AND OLD ROMAN CHURCH WAS ANDER THE BYZANTINES OR NOT?? actualy wan historians talk about romans they mean byzantines (the eastern roman empair). i dont wand to say that this hymn is a byzantine hymn, bat is clear the byzantine influens in this hymn. it is myn opinion
homocorpus 1 year ago
@homocorpus Hispanic liturgy is smilar to Orthodox liturgy since it kepp old liturgical traditions. Byzantines didnt exist is modern name that historians gave to the last phase of the Roman Empire. They were Romans and it was called Roman Empire or Imperium Romanum or Land of the Romans or Rum or Romania nothing to do with Vlachs
ImperialGuard9001 8 months ago
@ImperialGuard9001 eastern ROMAN EMPIRE is the byzantine empire .i know this name (byzantine )is a modern term but after constantine the great .roman empire is an other empire.
homocorpus 4 months ago
@homocorpus True. Perhaps the "Middle Ages" should star in reign of Constantine.
ImperialGuard9001 4 months ago
"East and West viewed things differently from an early date. I think the real problem developed when each side--East and West, sought to impose the regional theology of their local Fathers on the rest of the Church. This is especially true with respect to the discussion about the procession of the Holy Spirit."
Except that the East actually had the right to do that, because it wrote THE dogmatic definition on the procession of the Holy Spirit, the Creed.
Rahula 1 year ago
....all you guys debating the theology.....tut tut. Enjoy the sound! I am atheist and happy that way - nevertheless these pieces cannot fail to impress in their calm beauty nor their ability to conjure up a distant past. I add these nuances to my burgeoning and vast mental music collection and revel in my ability to disregard their often very divisive origins. Live in love people. :)
yuhgelin 1 year ago
@yuhgelin You do know that you can debate with love, don't you?
xgreciandelightx 1 year ago
it is almos a byzantine hymn ,it is not by gotths or bandals this music, it is not by arabs, it is from byzantines who rule the spain and ole maditeranian sea , also old roman hymns and gregorian hymns are from byzantine hymnology . the byzantine sivilisation is the mother of romanic and gothic sivilisation
homocorpus 1 year ago
@homocorpus No it isn't. the Mozoarabs was a term used to describe Christians who lived under Islamic rule in the Iberia (Spain and Portugal). It was a mix between Eastern Christine/Levantine/Latin Roman and Visigothic music. The same elements that compromise the modern day state of Spain and Portugal. There's a reason why this sort of Music was not common outside the Iberian Peninsula.
nabiji 1 year ago
It is a free performance, perhaps too free. Only 24 original melodies of authentic mozarabic chant have been conserved because they were written down using diastematic notation. All these melodies belong to the Office for the deaths and Lamentations of Jeremiah, precisely because they were frequently used in monastic communities. All the rest is lost. The ""mozarabic"" chant which has remained in Toledo is completely unnauthentic and was compiled in the XV century by Cisneros.
C2209w 1 year ago
@C2209w Today the mozarabic chant and rites remain in our cathedral,here in Toledo.
marioalassio1 1 year ago
@marioalassio1 :
No, marioalassio, no es verdad. Yo vivo en Madrid.
The mozarabic chant usually used in Toledo nowadays is not the original chant. If one compares simply the number of notes written for example in the Antiphonary of Leon and the cisnerian chant it is evident that the music reedited in the XVI century is not the same music which was sung before the XI century.
Anyway, the cisnerian chant also is a treasure.
C2209w 1 year ago
@C2209w Gracias por la enmienda.
marioalassio1 1 year ago
These chants belongs Hispano-visigothics ritual of Latin Roman Catholics, 5 th or 6 Century ( very very old). When Spain was part of Rome Imperium decaded
ALDESTROZO74 2 years ago 2
This is the Psallendum for a martyr pontifice.
Beatus vir qui non habiit in consilium impiorum; sed in lege Domini fuit voluntas eius.
Et erit tanquam lignum quod plantatus est secus decursus aquorum, et omnia quecumque fecerit prosperabuntur
Beatus vir qui non habiit in consilium impiorum; sed in lege Domini fuit voluntas eius
DanVilAl 2 years ago 9
What is the recording and is it available of this remarkable chant?
JOELLE24BOND 2 years ago
These images of the Beati are quite beautiful! An insight to the ends of the 1st millennium.
DanVilAl 2 years ago
Regarding the question about clear differences between East and West. The answer is yes. Ecumenical councils were the guidance of the 1st millenium. In the early Ecumenical councils the prescence was perhaps an average of 80% Eastern. For Nicaea there were only 2 western clerics attending. It often took at least 80 years longer for an ecumenical council to be recognized in the west. Cenobitic monasticism took 200 years longer to reach the west. Paganism among romans lasted longer in the west.
LiturgicalChants 2 years ago
We can note differences in theology between East and West in the first millenium. The theology of the latin fathers is different. St. Augustine wasn't read in the East. There were councils like the Trullan that were never accepted in the West, and were 100% Eastern bishops.
I think the schism was a consequence of the misundestandings rather than the starting point.
DanVilAl 2 years ago
St Augustine was and is still read and quoted in the East, because theologically he belongs to the tradition of the East, the Apophatic tradition. Also, it is normal that fewer latin bishops would be present in E.C. since (1) travelling at that era was not easy (2) christianity was more prominent and organised in the East than in the West with all the barbarian invasions of pagan nations. However...
Callixtinus 2 years ago
Thanks for the information. I was tought otherwise about St. Augustine in the East, and also there are some Easter Orthodox pages that say different things about St. Augustine. Anyways my point was that he's not the basis of Eastern theology. And my biggest point was that cultural differences existed at that time between East and West, as you said, travelling was not easy, othe languages, other culture (at least partially). I don't want to argue with you. Thanks.
DanVilAl 2 years ago
The Papal legate, who sat on the Popes seat, was offered special treatment and deference. For example: In the Council of Chalcedon, on Papal demand the Tome of Leo was adopted and Dioscorus was condemned, even though his cyrillic Christology was a tad less ambiguous than the Tome of Leo. During the Iconoclastic period, again the Pope's position favouring icons prevailed (which was correct and dogmatically sound)...
Callixtinus 2 years ago
There are many examples of Emperors, both before and after the schism, who were anxious of maintaining a good relation with the Papacy, even if the representation of the Pope in the Imperial court was usually non-existent. West might not be represented often, but it had the first of the Pentarchy and that mattered rather a lot back then.
Callixtinus 2 years ago
that's Lycourgos Angelopoulos singing the lead... a very distinctive voice.
franzsapka 2 years ago
Hmm... this sounds more like Byzantine Chant.
I heard the Monks of Slios, who celebrate the Mozarabic Liturgy which is unique but sounds more like Gallican Chant.
I also saw a false group claiming "Hispanic Orthodox" as if this ever existed in Catholic Spain, and they claim to sing Mozarabic Chant.
Mozarabics are Latin Roman Catholics in union with Rome, and their rite was located in Cathedral of Toledo, and preserved at Silos.
Who are the singers of this? That will tell me more...
ScapularSaves 2 years ago 3
Ensemble Organum. And by the way, the lead singer is Lycourgos Angelopoulos, who is a chanter of Byzantine music, maybe that's why the style is seemingly byzantine like (much vibrato). However, the piece does not sound byzantine, it just has a slight "fragrance" because of the lead singer and the Ensemble's style.
Callixtinus 2 years ago 2
@Callixtinus It's perhaps more than just their style, you also should try to read more about what Mozarabic means.
starbreez3 1 year ago
I know what false group you're reffering to. I had some bad experiences with them. They just falsify History pretending that Christianity in Hispania was theologically the same as the Eastern Christianity till XI century (the Great Schism).
DanVilAl 2 years ago
Dan... thanks for the honesty.
Ya Santo Domingo de Silos up North in Burgos preserved the Rite of Toledo (Mozarabic).
There are a few recordings of the Mozarabic Chant by the Monks.
Viva El Cid!
ScapularSaves 2 years ago
Yes. I have many recordings of Mozarabic chant. I like them all. This might seem a bit byzantine, but not too much. It is a possible interpretation of the chants.
DanVilAl 2 years ago
Do you believe that there were so clear differences between East and West up to 11th century? Mediterranean sea was the common place. Shouldn't we assume that in art & theology there was common basis?
There differences, but Schisma did them worse -in all fields.
theblackadder1983 2 years ago
East and West viewed things differently from an early date. I think the real problem developed when each side--East and West, sought to impose the regional theology of their local Fathers on the rest of the Church. This is especially true with respect to the discussion about the procession of the Holy Spirit.
gbmtmas 2 years ago 9
@gbmtmas I think it is a barrier of language that caused it. Greek and Latin seem to be saying the exact same thing though in different language. May God bring all into the One fold again.
catholicpeter 3 months ago 2
There were some differences, but rather than the common geography of the mediterranean for most parts, the difference was one of language and culture: latin vs greek, some particular ways to express the faith: different liturgy, different gestures, and a theology bases upon the latin father like St. Augustine (something very similar to what happened with copts and syriacs: differences like these were exacerbated by both sides).
DanVilAl 2 years ago 2
Oh my God!! this is the same music you can hear in Tunisia, Morrocco and Algeria it's called Maluf and it's from Indalusia they say!! what's this music plz and where is it from
hamdoudou1 2 years ago 2
Indeed, your comparison is as interesting as it is valid. Mozarabic chants are Iberian. However, they are inherited from the Visigoths, who ruled spain and north africa, hence the connection. Of course the Morrocan one is also influenced by Arabic melisma.
jbjaguar 2 years ago
@hamdoudou1 Muhammed copied the chanting from the Orthodox Christians.
designedsayer 1 year ago
@designedsayer I think you're taking what you say lightly while people can be offended by what you say.. I don't believe that the teaching of jesus consist on making fun of the other religions and their symbols.. so plz consider the holy caracter of the video we're posting for and remove this comment that could trigger hatered..
hamdoudou1 1 year ago
@hamdoudou1 You're losing your belief in Absolute truth.
There could be only one true religion, or absolute truth doesn't exist, or you could be like the Hindus who say that every religion, which disagree with themselves, all lead to God via different ways, or you could just say nothing is true, which doesn't make sense because for that saying to be true,it would have to be false.
designedsayer 1 year ago
@ScapularSaves Before Cluny Cister and the Gregorian Reformation there wasnt realy a unified Catholic world it was a type of Christianity according to each nation or kingdmon traditions culture language like Anglo Saxon Irish Frank Visigothic etc this influence a lot in the liturgy the Mozarabic come from Visigoth or Hispanic liturgy since they were under the Muslim they become isolated from rest of christians and never had Gregorian Reformation and kepp old traditions thats why is more smilar
ImperialGuard9001 8 months ago
to orthodoxism than catholocism in many aspects namely liturgy
ImperialGuard9001 8 months ago
@ScapularSaves Spain was Orthodox before the schism. The council of Burgos destroyed Hispania's remaining independence from Rome. "Mozarabic" was originally a slur used towards the indigenous Romano-Gothic populace and practices of Spain, to justify their switch to the roman rite. Gradually, the people who preserved these practices were "Mozarabs". As often happens with nomenclature, eventually they considered it a badge of honor.
joesuaiden 1 month ago
The chant sounds like the opening verse of Psalm. The manuscripts looked like from the Beatus of Leibana. Hope I'm correct or be corrected...
herakles120 2 years ago
You are quite right, most of them are images of the Apocalypse from the Beatus, except one or two (for example the micrography shown on the first slide is actually from Liber Ordinum). They are all more or less samples of mozarabic art.
Callixtinus 2 years ago
Yes, it is a Psalm. The chant is a Psallendum, that is the equivalent, more or less, of the Graduale in the Roman Rite.
DanVilAl 2 years ago
Beautiful divine choral-I like it:! Thank's:))
Jucundus homo,
Qui miseretur et commodat,
...in aeternum non commovebitur.
Happy is the man
Who is compassionate and generous,
...he will never be disturbed.
/Ps 112/
Flauius 2 years ago