Law and Gospel Confusion set Straight. - Law/Gospel Distinction

[14dicken]

Amen !

The bible isn't about what man must do, it's about what Jesus did.

Lovely song at the end too.

[Afrikitty]

@14dicken Yes, and this is what the Lordship Salvation cronies forget. If you cannot hold on to the promises of God FIRST and be found to be RESTING in HIM FIRST, then how on earth would you be able to do the works in order to glorify His name and be of help to our fellow man.

"For IN HIM we live, and move, and have our being" (Acts 17:28a)

May God bless you richly.

[ironclad452]

Colossians 4:6 Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.

[ironclad452]

Galatians 3:12 But the law is not of faith, rather The one who does them shall live by them. 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree

You preach Law. I preach Grace.

Paul NEVER did the former without FIRST doing the latter.

[TCMAO0]

Wrong again! Read where he talked to Felix about what?

The gospel as you would describe it? No!

He preached about justice, self-control, future judgment.

Now you have an issue with the Apostle and me. And God, I suspect!

[ironclad452]

What are you talking about? You DARE me? And it is not I who has shamed you, but your own conscience and the Word of God.

Have a nice day, Kirk. Go pray. Settle down and be with the Lord for a while. I shall do the same.

God bless you man.

[ironclad452]

If those ARE RIGHT NOW your desires, then you have not delighted yourself in the Lord!

For He gives those who delight in Him desires according to HIS will and not their own. I desire to be conformed in the image of Christ.

I do agree that apart from even a general grace, we would be as bad as we could be ... but God forbid I ever DESIRE those things as you seem to!

[TCMAO0]

I see... You must not understand Romans 7 very well. The flesh is still with the Saint. The flesh has it's own desires. And I am well acquainted with my sinful nature/flesh. Are you so acquainted with yours? Maybe that is the difference between me and you. I see the old man and the new man in the same body. You just see one man, evidently. Which causes you to think that you don't have to actually destroy the old man in any real way. Ever heard "Be killing sin, or it will be killing u?"

[ironclad452]

Kirk! SLOW DOWN!

Point out where I have said we DON'T have to kill our sin.

Point out where I have said I DON'T think I'm a sinner.

Point out where I have said I DON'T understand my own sinfulness.

Strawman after strawman.

[ironclad452]

If those are truly the desires of your heart, I fear for your soul. No Christian has desires such as that. The Christian's desire is to be more conformed into the image of Christ! I pray you are speaking rhetorically.

Delight yourself in the LORD and He will give you the desires of your heart, not that He will fulfill the desires already there, but he will give you NEW desires that please Him!

[TCMAO0]

No Christian has desires such as that.

Hey, I could accuse you of setting up a standard of works. You have to do this (i.e. quit having these desires) to go to heaven. You are a hypocrite! I am at least consistent!

[ironclad452]

I am not telling you to stop having those desires. You're trying to play word games with me to win an argument.

e2G was right, you are immature. You have no desire to glorify God. Your desire is to please your flesh.

Repent of your foolishness, Kirk.

[TCMAO0]

Oh! Word games!!! Games like... obedience is not optional (you said that). Then, you implied that the lack of obedience is not a problem when it comes to salvation.

Which is it? You are the player with words to destroy any real meaning to them.

[ironclad452]

Show me where I said the lack of obedience is not a problem when it comes to salvation.

I think you're arguing against someone else right now because EVERYTHING you're saying is assuming the absolute wrong thing.

[TCMAO0]

OK. Let's go slow and concentrate on this 1 point. You tell me... I will listen and ask good questions. Here is the question...

In what way does sin cause a problem when it comes to salvation after one is converted to Christ?

[ironclad452]

This is hopefully the last time I'm going to have to say this, man. I don't think sin is ok. I don't think a Christian can go on sinning and still claim to be a Christian.

Why don't you explain what you believe GRACE is. Then we'll get somewhere

[TCMAO0]

GRACE is a big topic! GRACE is unmerited favor. Applied in various ways... such as the new found ability to actually please God with works.

And before you have an allergic (reformation) reaction to works that the saint does to please God, let's consider a simple scenario...

A Real Christian man who likes porn is about to look at some. He realizes it is his flesh attacking the spirit. War breaks out and he stops short of the desire to look at it.

Now tell me... was God pleased?

[enslaved2God]

"But some may ask, 'Has not the Law been fully abrogated by the coming of Christ into the world? Would you bring us under that heavy yoke of bondage which none has ever been able to bear? Does not the New Testament expressly declare that we are not under the Law, but under Grace; that Christ was made under the Law to free His people therefrom?'

[enslaved2God]

'Is not an attempt to overawe mens conscience by the authority of the Decalogue (the Ten Commandments) a legalistic imposition, altogether at variance with that Christian liberty which the Savior has brought in by His obedience unto death?'

[enslaved2God]

We answer thus: So far from the Law being abolished by the coming of Christ into this world, He Himself emphatically stated, 'Think not that I am come to destroy the Law or the Prophets (the enforcers thereof): I am come not to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.' (Matthew 5:17-18) .

[enslaved2God]

True, the Christian is not under the Law as a Covenant of Works nor as a ministration of condemnation, but he is under it as a rule of life and a means of sanctification." ~ A.W. Pink

[TCMAO0]

Obviously there are two laws to recognize.

1. Old Covenant Law

2. New Covenant Law

The New is empowered by the Holy Spirit to the degree that the Christian can actually obey it.

[ironclad452]

There is no new covenant law, TCMAO0

God made a promise (read Gen 15) The bible is a revelation of that promise expanded upon and Christ is the fulfillment.

What was the promise God made to Abraham? That in his Seed (singular), all the nations would be BLESSED. That Seed is Christ (Gal 3:16). All the nations are blessed in Him.

Should a Christian obey the law of God? Yes. Do we do it perfectly or for acceptance? No! The Law STILL kills (Rom 7:11) GOD makes alive (Eph2:4-5)

SDG

[TCMAO0]

So why does the NT go on and on about being careful to maintain good works? And that man is not justified by faith alone but also by his works? I think you need to study more!

[ironclad452]

James argues strongly for justification by faith. He simply defines what a saving faith is. James speaks of a true living faith that works as opposed to a fake profession. Using his example, do you think Abraham was justified by the work of obediently sacrificing his son? Keep in mind that he never actually DID that work that proved his FAITH in God to be genuine. But he BELIEVED God so much that he was willing to do it.

So I know where you're coming from, do you not believe you sin daily?

[TCMAO0]

I no longer intentionally sin. When I sin it is out of ignorance. Find me one place in the bible that there is any atonement whatsoever for intentional rebellion (which what sin is - rebellion) against God!

Be careful when you discount obedience like you do as if it is no big deal. Read Hebrews 12:14, 1 Corinthians 15:34, 1 Peter 1:15, 16, 2 Corinthians 7:1 and many more. The NT goes on and on about this - do you?

[ironclad452]

You misread me my friend. I don't discount obedience. I read your page and realize you believe that everyone is a nominal "Christian" if they don't believe as you do. The pride you display is itself sinful towards God

All our righteousness is a filthy rag, so what does your obedience do? Does it earn favor with God?  If you answer yes, you don't understand the gospel

I expect you will comment as the Rom 6 opponent did to Paul. But Paul then says obedience is FRUIT, not an obligation

SDG

[TCMAO0]

You didn't answer my question! Obedience proves you don't have a dead faith. That is what James teaches.

[ironclad452]

That's what I said about James. And the problem with 500 characters is you can't say everything you want. What question did I not answer?

But ... having said that ... do you believe your obedience earns favor with God? Please don't childishly say "you answer my question first!" I don't know of a question I've missed. If you're asking if I go on and on about obedience, well ... I thought I did. Do I harp on someone about it without connecting the gospel to it? Not on your life.

[TCMAO0]

It is by grace we are saved. That is 100% true. But, the evidence that you have been saved is that you mortify the flesh as much as you possibly can. You work very hard (not to get saved) but to establish the witness to the world that you are saved. You walk as Jesus walked in every way possible. That is your master passion. You put to death the deeds of the flesh. You live in a way that the world would accuse you of never sinning by contrast to how they sin. This is real Christianity.

[ironclad452]

Well, of course! I agree with you completely :)

But there is no NT law. Our obedience is not done based on any law. It is a response out of gratefulness. The ten commandments are in the Heidelberg Catechism in the GRATITUDE portion of the catechism.

[TCMAO0]

Law = Commands = something to obey = proof (if you do them) you are a Christian.

If you love me, you will obey what I command. Jn 14:15

Whatever you want to call it... There are still commands to obey. I call that a law.

Obedience is not optional. It is required. Anyone who does not obey the NT Commands (and there are many of them - for example the instructions/commands in Acts 21:25).

Have you ever noticed that obeying God is NEVER presented as optional (quite the contrary)!

[ironclad452]

I think we're missing each other, my friend. I don't think that obedience is optional in any way. I do believe that even on our BEST days, our BEST obedience is tainted with sin that needs to be sanctified by our Redeemer Jesus Christ, but I have only one question I would like a straight answer to:

WHY are we obedient to God? What is its end? I'll even make it multiple choice: is it a) to earn favor? or b) out of gratitude? or c) other (and please explain).

God's gracious blessing to you

[TCMAO0]

c) other - specifically to please God and worship him (this is man's reason he exists). Although it is out of gratitude that is not the reason. Although it does keep the chastening rod away, that is not the reason, either. It also benefits the creature since it increases the fellowship he/she has with God, but that is not the reason, either.

It is to give God the worship He is due. That is why we are obedient. That is why those not converted cannot please God. They lack this motive.

[ironclad452]

My friend, you think that we're saved by grace alone and also that our obedience is done to please God? What about Isaiah 64:6? You cannot please God with even your righteousness, my brother! It HAS to be the righteousness of CHRIST! Even our obedience is sanctified by Him and ONLY acceptable through Him. Our works are prepared IN Christ (Eph 2:10) so no man may boast.

But I do understand the spirit of your post. Our desire SHOULD be to please Him. Amen to that. Thanks be to Christ!

SDG

[TCMAO0]

That is why you are a false teacher! You deny that the reason that we exist as born-again Christians is to please God.

The fact is God is pleased with the righteous acts of His saints! Why? Why doesn't Isaiah 64:6 apply? Because the works that the saints perform ARE THE WORKS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT! When I obey it is not really me ( the flesh) that actual does the work (it just looks that way). But when I sin - well that is my flesh!

You need to study a lot more before you try to teach!

[ironclad452]

I don't deny that we try to please Him, but the chief end of man is to GLORIFY God (WCF #1) pleasing Him is one goal we aspire to, it is not our main purpose, nor can it be done without Christ's mediation

The Law is given to us to reveal our sin (Rom 3:20). Do you really think you can obey it perfectly?

Even on your best days TCMAO0, you sin willfully. You have already done so today in your arrogant post!

If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us (1Jn 1:10)

[TCMAO0]

Don't you think our glorification of God is pleasing to God!?  Quit being silly! The saints (and I doubt you are one of them) DO GLORIFY (PLEASE GOD) as a practice of their lives very often everyday.

You are the one who is sinning, not me. REPENT of perish in it!

[ironclad452]

Now there you go being sinful again. Condemning a brother who confesses Jesus Christ as Lord and my all-sufficient Savior?

The word "glorify" does NOT mean to please God. It means to make much of Him. It means to extol His perfection. It means to acknowledge there is none like Him (not even you, I'm afraid).

I do sin, and I do repent of it daily. The battle is ongoing for me, but it looks as if you have already arrived. God have mercy on your self righteousness.

[TCMAO0]

Read carefully.... My glorification of God is pleasing to God. I doubt you would disagree with that. God is pleased when God is glorified. I never said the word glorify means to please.  I only said that glorification is (among other things) in the category of things that please God!

Be careful about assuming things that are not actually stated in these posts.

[TCMAO0]

You have to do more than prove that I have sinned. You have to prove it was intentionally (i.e. I knew I was sining at the time I committed it).

Now, who is making assumptions? Me or you???

[enslaved2God]

You no longer intentionally sin? Ever? There is never a single day that passes during which the course of, that you intentionally sin in thought, word or deed; in what you do or in what you fail to do?

[TCMAO0]

You got it! I falter but never by intent. If you sin knowingly what does the Word of God say....

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins Heb 10:26

What about that don't you understand? Seems pretty clear, doesn't it?

[ironclad452]

The "deliberate sin" that Heb 10:26 speaks of is rejecting the sufficiency of Jesus Christ to atone for your sins. Continue to v28-29:

"Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy .... How much worse punishment ... will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified..."

The new covenant is faith in Christ, not law keeping. You accuse me of being a false teacher, but I'll teach you one thing: context.

[ironclad452]

Pt 2:

I foresee you using Heb 10:28 as a proof text to law keeping, but the reason Paul relates to the Law of Moses is because that is how the Hebrews (his audience) would be able to understand what it means to spurn the Son of God (v29).

He is saying in effect "You thought it was bad to disobey the Law of Moses, wait until you spurn the sufficiency of Christ!"

Salvation is by FAITH ALONE thru CHRIST ALONE to the GLORY of GOD ALONE

SDG

[TCMAO0]

No where is the word you add (sufficiency) even mentioned in these verse of the letter to the Hebrews. Quit twisting Holy Writ to satisfy your carnality!

[ironclad452]

You don't believe Christ is sufficient?

[TCMAO0]

Yes He is sufficient enough for us to actually conquer sin as a habit. In the saint there is a dramatic and obvious to all supernatural change from sinner to saint. That is the gospel. That is the good news. To you (I suspect) it is not good news sin you actually don't want to be sinless!

[ironclad452]

How have you condemned me so easily? Do you know where I have come from? The Lord has indeed done a dramatic thing in my life. I am a saint, no doubt, and I won't let you or any other steal that assurance away. My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus Christ and His righteousness! Nothing in my hands I bring -- merely to the cross do I cling.

I love the old hymns. So packed with Gospel truth.

Now quit being a tool of the enemy by dividing the Body of Christ, my brother.

[TCMAO0]

You love not the whole truth. For the whole truth includes the POWER to live like a Puritan and conquer your sin!

[TCMAO0]

That is just my point. You fail to see the obvious! When you intentionally sin you actually spurn Jesus Christ!

[ironclad452]

The intentional sins spoken of in the context of that chapter are 1) holding fast to our confession and 2) neglecting the gathering of the saints to stir one another to love and good works

There it is! you say? Good works right there! you say? But what are the good works? Eph 2:10 again. They are evidence of our calling and election. They're not requirements for salvation

The gospel is liberating, but you are placing a burden heavier than Christ's on the shoulders of those who hear you

[TCMAO0]

Never did I say they were requirements FOR SALVATION. But they always are necessary proofs of salvation. The reason I doubt you are born-again is because you are not emphasizing the gospel as including the power to be more and more conformed to sinless perfection (yet not quite ever reaching) in obvious ways and amounts.

[ironclad452]

lol, what amazes me is that we both agree on the purpose and place of good works, yet you condemn me as being unsaved because I don't place an unbalanced weight on the side of good works. The two must be harmonized, my friend.

Jesus Christ came to save SINNERS, among whom Paul was chief. I am quite a sinner, and glad I am! Because if I weren't (as you apparently aren't) Christ would have nothing to do with me!

[ironclad452]

God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign.

[ironclad452]

It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

Luther's letter to Melanchthon

Letter no. 99, 1 August 1521

[TCMAO0]

Did it ever occur to you that Luther might not have even been a Christian when he wrote that?

[TCMAO0]

And why should I pray hard? If what you say is right. There is nothing hard to pray for. Just believe in Christ, right? Luther would condemn you today if he were on Youtube!

[ironclad452]

I know I said I wouldn't engage anymore, but I wanted to respond to these last two comments. I'm no easy believist and I'm not spurning obedience to Christ

Don't you get it? You're condemning me for preaching the GOOD news while you sit here preaching the Law. I have nowhere said that we don't have to obey God. But Christ did not come to save the righteous. He came to save sinners, and THAT is why I said I'm glad I'm a sinner. For if I were righteous (as you are) He did not come for me!

[TCMAO0]

Be careful then you don't kill too much of your sin because you will be more righteous then and Jesus won't want you!

Absolutely foolish!

[TCMAO0]

Where did you dig that silly commentary up? Another "Sovereign Grace" Church of Satan!

[ironclad452]

You're quite the assumption maker, aren't you? I'll not engage you anymore. It is clear you are self righteous and set in your ways.

I will pray for you, that God would convict you of your sins.

[TCMAO0]

Don't over work yourself or you might be accused of trying to actually accomplish my salvation for me!

[TCMAO0]

That we can agree on. I do believe you are glad that you are a sinner. And that is precisely why you are not saved! You don't hate your sin and until you are born-again you never will!

[ironclad452]

I never said I didn't hate it. I fight it every day! If I loved it I would not engage in the battle.

But I ACKNOWLEDGE it, and that is where you and I differ.

[TCMAO0]

You did more than acknowledge it you are and I quote... GLAD YOU ARE A SINNER!

That is far more than a mere acknowledgement - get real!

[ironclad452]

Yes, I should have stated it differently for your sensitive ears. Forgive me. The meaning behind the words was that I am glad that I KNOW that I am a sinner. I thought it was self evident.

[TCMAO0]

Well be careful how you say it. Because out of the heart the mouth speaks. I think it was more than a slip up on your part.

[ironclad452]

Kirk, you're speaking a Freudian philosophy, not a Christian one

Now if I were constantly berating you and chiding your poor choice of words and condemning you for every mis-speak while all the while saying I don't sin, now THAT would be evidence of something wrong in the heart.

Kirk, I realize you feel ganged up on, which explains the flurry of thumbs down, but listen. I'm only preaching the gospel to you. And as I predicted, you've cast the Rom 6 accusations at me. Grace to you

SDG

[TCMAO0]

Besides we are not debating whether or not we each KNOW we are a sinner we are debating whether or not we are actively battling and gaining much victory over sin as an evidence to the world that we are who we claim to be. That is the topic, is it not?

[enslaved2God]

What you believe, what you claim and how you exegete is pretty clear, yeah. Oh well, then.

[TCMAO0]

Yes it is clear! Why? Because God has made it clear. Believe the True Gospel and be set free from lawlessness and rebellion toward GOD!

[enslaved2God]

I do believe the true gospel. and I am set free in Christ from lawlessness and rebellion toward God. If you somehow assume otherwise, that's absurdity. You don't know me so don't preach to me or talk down to me, as I see you doing to others here. That's pride, not grace. I guess that must be one of your unintentional sins. Goodbye now and God bless.

[TCMAO0]

I know your type! You don't confess the 1689 London Baptist Confession because it has too high of standard when it comes to the category of Christianity that is authentic. You are lawless "Sovereign Grace" folk who think they are Calvinists!

[enslaved2God]

Wrong on every count. You don't know me at all, but I DO know your type. You're an immature, prideful, self-righteous, assuming, accuser of the brethren. With every one of your condemnatory remarks, you show your true fruit, because there is therefore now NO condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Ro. 8:1). But you are condemnatory and graceless. Hmmm... Quit pointing fingers, take a look in the mirror and repent of your own sins.

[TCMAO0]

Do you confess the 1689? Yes or No?"

[ironclad452]

hear hear, E2G. I have tired of being accused at every turn that I'm unregenerated. I say I agree with Kirk (TCMAO0) and he mocks me.

He says that my poor choice of words (while my intent was different) is evidence of what's truly in my heart, while he is continuously spewing out hatred.

His philosophy is more Freudian than Christian.

[TCMAO0]

I am not spewing anything. You are a post-modern "think well of folks" type. And I think it is evident who is true to the gospel and who is not. I am glad that we have a record of this disagreement because it reveals who is who.

You are against Lordship Salvation and I say Lordship is salvation. God can not only forgive me but command me and cause me to not sin. If you call that self-righteous then you are calling God self-righteous. For He is TRULY in CONTROL of me in this regard.

[ironclad452]

Kirk, I actually just listened to the audio book of John MacArthur's "The Gospel According to Jesus" and found myself loving nearly every minute of it (aside from his pre-trib, pre-mil position, but that's another topic altogether).

I believe that Christ is both Savior and Lord. I obey Him as much as I am aware, and the times when I don't, I repent and return to the cross, for we are in the battle until our death.

I'm sad for you that you think you've arrived.

[TCMAO0]

I never said I arrived. All I said is this...

Obviously there are two laws to recognize.

1. Old Covenant Law

2. New Covenant Law

The new law is the law of love that Paul refers to. Paul said that he pummels his body into subjection lest he (Paul) be disqualified after having preached to others.

Do you warn people not to shipwreck their faith by being carnal? Paul did!

[ironclad452]

Ahh ... the law of love that you are so strictly adhering to in these replies, right?

Show me where I've been carnal. All I've done is preach the grace and gospel of Jesus Christ, and you accuse me of being carnal. Examine YOURSELF, Kirk, and see whether YOU are in the faith.

Make MUCH of Jesus Christ, my brother, and LITTLE of yourself.

SDG

[TCMAO0]

Yep... Just as God rebukes those He loves, so do I. That is what Christ commands.

Anyway, you are carnal in that you have not agreed that the Gospel is much more than just "you are saved by grace and that is that". It includes obedience. The fact that we can now obey is GOOD NEWS. We could not obey before we were born again - but now we can. And all those truly converted actually do obey (though not perfectly) in a very, very, very, very large measure.

[enslaved2God]

You really need to stop making false assumptions.

First of all, God indeed does rebuke those He loves. You're comparing what you are doing to that? No, the Lord rebukes; you condemn.

[enslaved2God]

Secondly, your "carnal" statement is yet more groundless allegation, not based at all in truth. I've news for you. We DO believe that "the Gospel is much more than just "you are saved by grace and that is that". It includes obedience. The fact that we can now obey is GOOD NEWS. We could not obey before we were born again - but now we can."

We believe it because it's biblical. You would know that if you conversed, instead of finger-pointing.

[enslaved2God]

What is not biblical is your notion that the Christian, in this life, will come to a point of NEVER intentionally sinning. We are being daily sanctified. We will grow in the grace and the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. We will become increasingly aware of our sin, despising and forsaking our sins as we race toward glorification. But we will NOT "never again intentionally sin." The bible doesn't teach it...so it's false.

[ironclad452]

lol, I haven't disagreed either. What I've said is there HAS to be a balance. You can't condemn a Christian for preaching grace! Paul himself did that very thing, which is again why I predicted that you would be the Romans 6 objector "Should we then sin that grace may abound?"

I've not disagreed with your statement that the true Christian is obedient to our Lord Jesus Christ.  But we do it out of gratitude, not obligation.

[ironclad452]

You might find this funny, Kirk, but as we speak, I've been listening to John Owen's "On the Mortification of Sin in Believers" on audio (sermonaudio . com and Still Water Revival Books if anyone is interested).

I just thought about that and it made me chuckle about how condemning you've been of me without even knowing me.

Nevertheless, may the Lord's gracious blessing be on you, for I know not your heart.

[enslaved2God]

P.S.

The GOOD NEWS is that the Word became flesh and bore the sins of His people, that they be reconciled to the Father; it's not "The fact that we can now obey".

[TCMAO0]

See you want the grace more than you want to obey, or it would be good news. I would rather go to hell obeying God than enter heaven to be with people who thought that our new ability to obey wasn't good news. You are man centered - not Christ centered! REPENT!

[enslaved2God]

Amen, iron. These immature people are all over YouTube, having the audacity to sit on the throne of God and tell people, that they don't even know, that they aren't born again. It's sickening. It says infinitely more about them than it does about the ones being accused and condemned. If you belong to the Lord Jesus Christ, who is ANYONE to say otherwise!? I'll believe my Lord before the accusations and condemnation of the enemy or any mere man.

God bless you in Christ, brother.

[TCMAO0]

That's odd the NT records believers judging in this way....

You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for heart is not right before God. Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. Acts 8:21-22

[ironclad452]

Brother, I would caution you as well to not think higher of yourself than you ought. TCMAO0 is our brother as well (as far as we know) so we need to speak with grace as much as we are able.

Grace to you

[enslaved2God]

You're absolutely right brother. But I'm not thinking, at least in this case, too high of myself. I'm thinking of the pain and confusion that dear brothers and sisters in Christ endure when they are told that they are not born again, based on nothing but assumption, ignorance and hatred. I am speaking with grace as much as I am able. That being said, he needs our prayers and he will be in them.

[TCMAO0]

Why pray - God hasn't promised to listen to a single word from those who consider good works optional (i.e. not required to be a bona-fide Christian)?

[ACruceSalus1]

TCMAO0, You've called a God fearing, gospel believeing, born again child of Christ lawless. You've no right to make such accussations. You do not know my husband, e2G. To think that you know him in the least bit, never mind to make these baseless accusations is nonsensical and absurd. Pointing fingers in this fashion is immature both spiritually and emotionally.

[TCMAO0]

I should rather say. How can you prove to me that he is actually the wonderful person you say he is. He is a sinner? And if so what is so wonderful about that?

[ACruceSalus1]

I know him better than any person on earth, you do not know him at all. Besides, I have nothing to prove to you. As you do not know him, you cannot recklessly call him lawless simply due to the fact that he disagrees with you on us not being perfected while here on earth.

What about Noah's drunkeness, Abraham's lying, David's adultery and murder, Zechariah's unbelief - were these men unsaved as well?

Sanctification is a process that is come to fruition when we are glorified.

[ACruceSalus1]

What about Peter denying the Lord 3x's? What about Peter being rebuked by Paul? Peter walked side by side with Jesus Christ Himself, but sinned. And you claim that you've reached the point where you no longer intentionally sin? Sinless perfection this side of glorification is unbiblical.

[TCMAO0]

What is it we are arguing about? Seems you think I am promoting sinless perfection. I am not! I am promoting not sinning intentionally. Do you see the distinction.

I believe you want me to say that I don't sin, anymore and I am perfect so that you can call me a heretic.

I believe you are saying that one can sin intentionally and expect to go to heaven.

Can I go out and murder 100 people each day and expect to go to heaven?

I don't think you would say, yes! Therefore we must obey

[enslaved2God]

I'm all for the promotion of not intentionally sinning. Any Christian should be. But that isn't what you were "promoting" when I came here.

Me: "You no longer intentionally sin? Ever? There is never a single day that passes during which the course of, that you intentionally sin in thought, word or deed; in what you do or in what you fail to do?"

You: "You got it! I falter but never by intent."

Doesn't sound like a simple exhortation to the brethren not to intentionally sin, to me.

[enslaved2God]

As for the "I believe you want me to say...", and the "I believe you are saying...", brother, you are wrong on both counts. I ask you, will the assumptions never end?

And still all you have to say is 'REPENT!"

You're right that there is no fellowship to be had with you, speaking for myself and my wife. We consider you a brother and will be keeping you in our prayers, but we've no need or desire to further expose ourselves to your presumptions and contention. Grace to you in Christ.

[TCMAO0]

Why would you consider me your brother when we believe TOTALLY DIFFERENT GOSPELS!

[TCMAO0]

right..??? there is a standard level of obedience beyond which even you would doubt that a person is a Christian, right?

So, the only real difference between you and me is I draw the line here and you draw it there.

I believe that is the basic issue. And the Lord will judge. I think it is safer (by far) to call people to greater obedience (with the threats of damnation - just as Holy Writ does) apparently you do not. That is why we can't have further fellowship. REPENT!

[TCMAO0]

My previous comment is also addressed to IronClad.

Please define the debate as you understand it so far if I have misunderstood what it is you are arguing with me about.

[ironclad452]

TCMAO0: Which comment was addressed to me? The one where you yell REPENT! at the end? If so, I'll simply ask you to show me how preaching grace is grounds for no fellowship?

You sound quite a bit like the hypothetical objector that Paul debates in Rom 6.

"If your preaching of the gospel of God's free grace in Jesus Christ does not provoke the charge from some of antinomianism, you're not preaching the gospel of the free grace of God in Jesus Christ."

-Dr M Lloyd-Jones

Amen

[TCMAO0]

Answer my question! How much can I disobey God and still go to heaven? If obedience isn't optional for heaven then you tell me whether I have to quit sinning to some extent to get in. Can I kill people, do drugs, rob banks and commit adultery and still be thinking I am heaven bound because praise God I love the gospel of FREE GRACE?

You must answer NO - or you are of the DEVIL!

[ironclad452]

I've disobeyed God numerous times today. None of it intentionally, but does it matter? Isn't sinning in ignorance just as disqualifying as willfull sin? Where do YOU draw the line between willfull and ignorant sin?

I praise God that He sent His Son and I will be called a devil by you a thousand times and STILL hold Him up high!

Where is YOUR grace? Where is YOUR patience? I've been quite kind with you and you have grown increasingly accusatory. Don't you see something wrong with that?

[TCMAO0]

The devil was always quite kind to me, too! And he will be again if it would get me to drop my guard. I am in a Holy War. And I fight against people who make no clear distinction between willful and ignorant sin! Christ even said to forgive them because (now catch this) they know not what they do! Paul said he found mercy because he sinned in ignorance (1 Timothy 1:12-17). Hebrews declares that if we WILLFULLY SIN - no atonement! What more do you want? You are arguing with GOD not me!

[ironclad452]

I figured that would get a rise out of you (you're becoming quite predictable). The reason you think you've overcome is because you make little of God, Kirk. I'll refer you to Calvin:

"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty." --John Calvin

Perhaps the reason you make such a distinction is because you don't realize incredibly sinful even your sins committed in ignorance are to a holy and pure God.

[ironclad452]

And also, who does the fighting? It is BY THE SPIRIT that we put to death the deeds of the body (Rom 8:13).

Christ has even forgiven willful sin, Kirk. He will forgive all who come to Him in faith. Yes, grace rubs against the flesh. Perhaps that is why you're getting so bent out of shape during this conversation? God's FREE GRACE has rubbed against the flesh throughout the centuries. So much so that men crucified the One who preached it most faithfully.

SDG

[TCMAO0]

What do make of this then?

I would love to go to heaven by grace alone. I (speaking as in the flesh) want to kill you and still go to heaven. Will God grant my request? Can I kill you and 100 other people a day and still go to heaven. Is that true! Tell me it is and I will carry it out if I believe you!

[ironclad452]

Anyone who desires to kill me and 100 other people a day has no place in the kingdom. However, should such a person turn to Christ they would be welcomed with open arms!

[TCMAO0]

Aha! There you go again. Setting up a standard... no follow through with it... how about if I only killed 1 person a day? Still too much... OK... How about 1 person a year... No??? How about I just hurt people and not kill them... No good, either... I see... How about if I just kill kittens.... No good? How about if I just torture kittens? That's probably not good enough either.... How about if I just torture myself??? no... probably not. I got it I will just sin like you do. BINGO!

[ironclad452]

I have begun to give you the thumbs down of disapproval because your sarcasm is NOT of the Lord, Kirk. You know quite well that I've NEVER ONCE said that we don't have to obey God.

Your level of disrespect and just plain not-niceness has irritated me. Yep. Still a sinner.

[TCMAO0]

You are simply annoyed that I have answered all your questions in a way that leaves you without a response. So you play like you are too holy to talk to me. You are the self-righteous. You are just like the drunkard who says he has no drinking problem. The drunk is that last to know these things. So, is the self-righteous!

[ironclad452]

Do you read what you type before you post it? You think that I think I'm too holy to talk to you? What am I doing, Kirk? Am I not talking to you right now? What I'm trying to do is to get you to THINK for a minute. Think about what I AM SAYING and not what YOU THINK I'm saying. Because you're so far in left field that I think you're having a completely different conversation.

Are you on medication right now?

[TCMAO0]

I am thinking clear. Our debate is an age old one. There are two dangerous cliffs to fall off from. One of legalism... the other of greasy grace.... Agreed? Actually lets just focus on the one post to go step by step... OK?

[ironclad452]

Define your terms Kirk. What is "greasy grace" and how have I presented it?

[TCMAO0]

Greasy Grace - grace that appeals in some way to the man who wants to be saved without working very hard to get rid of sin. To the extent that the gospel eases the mind that a person can intentionally sin (premeditatedly - like premeditated murder, but not limited to that sin) while at the same time thinking that the blood of Christ will just have to cover it, since he is already a Christian.

[TCMAO0]

Don't you see you have set the standard of behavior similar to your own. That is the very definition of self-righteousness.

Anyone much worse than you can't be a Christian! Anyone much better than you might not be either since they are working so hard to be good. But everyone about where you are it is in good shape! So you fellowship with those folks because you feel better about yourself that way.

[ironclad452]

"Anyone much worse than you can't be a Christian! Anyone much better than you might not be either since they are working so hard to be good"

dude ... Where have I said anyone worse or better than me isn't a Christian? WHAT I SAID IS that if your desires are to murder people then you are not.

And I stand by that statement because Christ transforms us to become more .. wait for it .. obedient.

And I've not changed my position in this entire conversation. That is what I said from the beginning

[TCMAO0]

In the effort to slow down... let's just deal with one line of questioning... Refer to the one post where I agreed to go step by step with you.

[ironclad452]

by the way, you're starting to worry me. This talk about you desiring to kill me and others is not the talk of a Christian.

What is going on with you that you feel the need to say such things?

[TCMAO0]

You drove me to it. Aren't you are murderer at heart. The context was who really sees there sinfulness. So I guess I have surprised you of the clarity by which I see my own flesh/sin!

[ironclad452]

Kirk, I have never denied my own sinfulness. On the contrary, it is YOU who has said you never intentionally sin (apart from your sarcasm and lovelessness and pride and arrogance, that is .. but evidently you're blinded to those sins).

Your arguing against a strawman (typically the only way someone who is wrong can win an argument).

Repent of this foolishness, Kirk!

Stand firm on the Rock of Jesus Christ.

[Afrikitty]

Hi John,

I have opened up this video for comments again. I have removed some inappropriate comments that Kirk made and I will unblock him so that he can take part in this conversation again. However, because of his recklessness, I have set the comments for approval only, as I do not want a repeat of what happened last week. If you decide to engage Kirk again, I pray God will open his eyes to see the truth of the saving Gospel of Christ.

Soli Deo Gloria!

[combatvetlawstudent]

about obeying the commandments that JESUS SAID many times

[waltherchemnitz]

Ahh, then this is the next video. Thank you.

[combatvetlawstudent]

amazing he does not mention john 14:21, john 15:10. 1 jn 2 vs-4 matthew 7:19-21 or 1st corinthians 6:9-13 in fact he did not quote one verse hmmmmmm

[aProdigalChild]

OH Liz,I see you have a guest on here ( Dentister )who is part of the gang that think God owes us man only the best since we're so "good" down here on earth...LOL

In regards to the OT,like I always like to say "thank You Lord for giving us what You graciously give and not what we deserve"...LOL

God owes us NOTHING Dentist,stop the self righteous,self deserving tripe and praise Him for what you have and don't deserve.Look around you and see what we've been up to all this time,EVIL!

Best Regards!

[Dentister]

Ok are you actually serious ?

1:10 Give give give...

The idea of God punishing you by burning in hell for all eternity for commiting any of the mortal sins, like... eating too much ?!

Are you for real ? There is so much left unexplained from what you're saying, you just leave out the uncomfortable issues.

And if you want to quote bible, go ahead and reach for Old Testament, to quote one of the more amusing stories from the early christianity.

[Afrikitty]

@Dentister,

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the GIFT of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

The "more amusing stories" you refer to in your sarcastic, rude and ignorant comment are dealt with on one of my other channels, at which you, with your attitude and demeanour, would not be welcome!

[CASEYMARK76]

Matt hit the target on this Law/Gospel distinction again.Thank you my friend for posting this message here as well.

Blessings toy you and brother Matt!

[DefendingTheTruth]

AWESOME video!

[brodylan2008]

look up power evangelism with todd white and Dan Mohler, it's amazingly transforming

[ChristLike121500]

This is the best preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ I have ever heard. Thanks for sharing.