faith INTP Intellectual personalities INTJ ENTP ENTJ

[KINGJADEX]

I was brought up religious as well. I was brought up as Mormon or LDS, and as you probably know it's hard to break away from that sect of Christianity. I'm also an INTJ and I had always had my doubts about religion (in general, not just my group) but now I have actually moved on, and it feels great to be free of religion.

[tacoma200]

@KINGJADEX I respect people that think for themselves.

[jaymoney522]

God is not something you can explain with objective reason alone, you need an element of subjective reality to put into place. I think society tries to personify god in many ways to make things comprehendible, but like you said, i also beleive that there is no way we can truly comprehend all the facinating things going on in this universe. If you beleive in being a good person, being humble and actively seek to make the world around you a better place, than you beleive in MY definition of god.

[ajobimlover]

for me, (an infp) the existence of God and his attributes are not revealed through the sensible world or logic alone but mostly through intuition and feeling. It seems the NT has a harder time seeing/ accepting that not all truth is achievable through or based on hard logic. Here you have to let go of your usual methods of examination. It takes some humility. I recognize the Bible as truth because I recognize the moral perfection it conveys, with God, the most perfect Being, as its origin.

[Quintpeterson]

truth beyond wisdom....some things are felt not thought about

[adda241]

INTP here..I have the EXACT same problem.

[slay7even]

Check out Yuttadhammo's channel or search Ask a monk: Faith and understanding.

[dayati]

I'm not a believer, but I get the feeling that the logical Jews, Christians, and Muslims justify their faith on what they feel to be a rational thought process. A lot of times, their "rationalizations" will be based on an incorrect understanding of science or a form of apologetics created to appeal to the logical mind. A lot of pseudo-scientific attempts are made (especially from Muslims) to reconcile science and religion. In general, a lot of cherry picking and intellectual dishonesty helps.

[IIIIandrew]

The reason I think people believe in God is because without God there is no hope and thus life has no purpose and thus life is not worth living. Evolution offers a chance of hell while Christianity offers a chance at heaven its a safe bet.

[wowitswickizer]

All faith is illogical. You could have faith in Zeus and have the same validity as faith in jesus.

[TacitusMS1]

I answer NT as well and I'm a Christian,.Religion and logic are in no ways mutually exclusive. NT's have a spiritual gift (the power of discernment ) which is useful in disciplining our faith ...and thus healthy. We make great Bible scholars in our understandings of the complex allegories and themes. Nt's have a gift for retaining various ideas presented in scriptures and fusing them into a comprehensive whole. I find the atheist to be illogical due to his /her hubris. A fool knows all?

[sugarcoatedfortune]

I'm an INTP and I know what you mean about faith. It seems to be associated with intuition, since that is a knowing or a "sixth sense". Hope that makes sense. I struggle to let go of my logic and this can produce much paranoia, but when I allow myself to be more intuitive, there are many times more productive results. I believe this correlates with faith in general as well for INTPs.

[skepticalsociety]

I know this video is a few years old so you may have answered this question by now. I'm INTP and I was a christian until my early 20's. The reason that I believed is that I was brought up to believe that the bible is truth. You can create a very logical world if you treat the bible as truth. If you are surrounded by the christian world, you never have any need to look outside and the world makes sence. Its only when I looked at the oppositions argument that I realised my arguments werent logical

[rosecoloredlenses]

I can see how most "logical" or thinking-based people tend to be atheistic or something similar. Faith defies reason.

The problem is that we as thinkers think we can know, or at least be able to understand, everything. We think we can, but we can't. We have to realize that our brains are finite. Just because we can't logically understand something doesn't mean it's not real.

[tacoma200]

@rosecoloredlenses Hi Rose, I really don't think I can know or understand everything. As humans we are very limited in our understanding. I think the moment we realize that we don't know everything and accept that we become wiser. I make decisions on the best information available to me at that time, always staying open to new information as it becomes available. And I agree with your statement that "Just because we can't logically understand something doesn't mean it's not real".

[weisen3098]

While talking to a PhD, we got on to Religion. He chuckled and said religion was based on faith not on fact and that he believed in evolution. So I asked him, "really what theory of evolution do you follow?" He looked puzzled and asked, "is there more then one theory?" Yes there are and some are no longer excepted as fact any more ie Long Neck Theory, Darwin's main idea. It is far from being a fact any longer. Evolution is a theory and it changes. You can find creationist theory if you look.

[signsofhealth]

I’m an INTP and a Christian. I think the problem is that most people’s view of faith differs from what the Bible says it is. (Hebrews 11:1) To believe in something without proof is gullibility. Faith is believing in something you can’t see BECAUSE you have proof. True faith is based on reason.

[tacoma200]

@signsofhealth Especially since faith has different meanings to different people I can relate. This is a very difficult subject as you can see by the many debates on the issue. Thanks so much for your comment.

[hotdoh]

@signsofhealth

"Faith is believing in something you can't see BECAUSE you have proof."

BULLSHIT!

I can't see the air, but I have proof for its existence...that is ABSOLUTELY NOT faith!

[tacoma200]

@signsofhealth I respectfully disagree with your definition of faith, especially in the context of religion. There is no proof that God does or doesn't exist. If there were proof there would be no reason for faith. I have read many definitions of faith and they don't seem to match yours. No disrespect intended.

[MissPepperme]

 I highly recommend watching this video, as and INTP it helped me tremendously to understand "God". The maker is also INTP. Well it wont let me look post a link but it is called "God" by existentialistcat.

[noobler9]

anyways, after all of that generalized insightful knowledge, the answer is intuition, intuition takes ahold over thinking fairly often, does it not?

[tacoma200]

@noobler9 Well, I do use my intuition often without realizing it. It is a big part of my thinking process. Thanks.

[noobler9]

@tacoma200 man I totally forgot what I said here and had to read over it all to figure out what I was thinking, good stuff lol anyways, yea, intuition is basically some sort of mini-me of evolution's "goal" in a way, the idea is to do something that's perfect, for the next step of whatever process, measuring steps in as tiny as possible unit as one can until eventually it kind of comes out looking like one single large unit, "as one approaches 0" calculus style, I think...

[noobler9]

furthermore, evolution isn't going towards anything, like an ubermensch, superman, or deity, it's not about getting better and better, think of the most degrading animal to insult someone with

now realize that that thing is just as evolved as you are

that's right, evolution means adaptation to specific situations, any gaming strategies where you react according to what's coming up and you know of it, gives you an idea of how a "mindset of evolution" might be, no clear goal except to keep going

[noobler9]

the concept of evolution as we understand it today is scary, not because it's bad, but I'm just saying it scares people, under religion there is a goal, a plan, a higher up who will contain chaos as we know it

within evolution it's the order of the day, order tends arising from chaos in no discernable pattern until we study that process more, inching along in our understanding

or so the general believers in it think, which I agree with

people mix up overall goals of systems with personal goals

[noobler9]

that being said, as best as I can tell the whole thing revolves around a framework, don't forget that people, especially INTP's, typically aren't quick to leap to something unless they feel that they've got all the available information to make the leap to it with, so it is a hard sell to convince them to change their minds

listening to lectures to just talking to people in person and on the internet, I can safely say that cause or correlation wise, most religious don't understand evolution

[noobler9]

ockam's razor is the difference in a loose sense, thousands and billions of years/experiences is not a form of logic, logic merely dictates that they experienced something and interpreted it in some form or another, it is a fallacy to say that it is logical, ironically, fallacy's proper name is "logical fallacy"

seeing as I look into this sort of stuff when I'm bored, which is often currently, I have a fair grasp of the subject, theologists do not take religion literally, even the religious ones

[noobler9]

to be VERY clear on the entire matter, rationality and logic are two VERY different things

logic is a form of rationality, however rationality is not the same as logic

rationality can come across as something like, "if I jump off a cliff I'll die" after looking down, logic can come across as "if I jump off a cliff, I will fall, if I fall long enough I will pick up speed, if I pick up enough speed and stop suddenly, I will die, this cliff is high enough for this to happen, therefore don't jump

[tacoma200]

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so" Mark Twain I was surprised to find this quote.

[FreeCapital]

@tacoma200

Well, for starters, a quote doesn't make it so. Mark Twain was a great writer, but the quote makes no sense; not even when taken in a philosophical context. Faith is belief. Without it, you just have an unanswered question. Secondly, science does not explain the spiritual world, so we set that aside. Next, you decide whether you believe there is a God. Not a Christian God, just any God. Do you believe in a God, period? I'm an ENTP and love the sciences, especially theoretical..

[FreeCapital]

...physics. Let me save you the time. Science will never disprove God and of course, if you believe in a God, the science is self-explanatory. You cannot create nothing from nothing. The laws did not create themselves, no matter how far back you go. A creation (meaning an "object" of the universe) cannot create itself. This was a logical (in the familiar sense of the word) decision for me, not an emotional one. If you decide to except what I just said, then the rest is guesswork. The...

[FreeCapital]

Bible was written by men who claimed to have divine inspiration in writing it. Different men from different places. That's too easy. There is no doubt in my mind there are some untruths in the Bible. If the Bible was completely true, in the sense of the complete Word being divinely inspired, then the later Christians wouldn't have removed the teaching of earlier Christianity. The fact that the Bible has been changed even once should give pause to any Christian holding the Bible...

[FreeCapital]

...as the completely unadulterated Word of God. This might make you comfortable, but no said reasoning your Faith would be. Now, you are left with only Faith, my friend. It is not an all or nothing scenario. God will not send you to hell for questioning your Faith. You question because things do not add up all the time, not because you reject Christ personally. You cannot reject a Faith that has not completely proven itself to you. People say a lot of things that will make you question....

[FreeCapital]

@FreeCapital

"...your faith would be easy."

Is what I meant here.

[FreeCapital]

the good of humanity, period. Christians are fallible. You do not except something unless it make sense to you. You need to look at your motives for why you are now questioning your faith. If it's so you can relieve yourself of the pressure that comes from having to follow the guidelines of the church, then you may have some problems. With your conscious. If it's because things don't add up, then you are not being a bad Christian, your being human. I'm a Christian Universalist. I won't...

[FreeCapital]

get in to that here, but basically the interpretation of hell differs between Greek and Hebrew translations, so therefore, I choose to believe the more rational of the two. God does not send a people he loves just because they haven't been given enough proof that his son died on the cross for them. We have not seen it, and yet we are asked to believe something we have not seen. How can you reject Christ, if you've never seen or felt his presence? I believe in a second chance at redemption..

[FreeCapital]

In other words, if you die an unbeliever, you go to heaven (which I do believe, because I believe in a God with a purpose for us being here. It doesn't make sense to let that purpose ultimately end in death) God, another being, asks you "do you believe now?" Um, well hell (no pun intended) yeah I believe, I can see it. Then you get asked if you except what you have seen. Uh, duh, yeah. I believe now. I'm sorry.

Now, doesn't that make more sense? Doesn't that seem more fair? God wants...

[FreeCapital]

@FreeCapital

"...God, or another being, asks you..."

Again, should really double check my writing before posting. :)

[FreeCapital]

us to think, not blindly follow any theology without reason simply because the punishment is eternal pain. This post is getting out of hand. Sorry. I should have written you personally. So, I'll wrap up with my point. I believe because I've seen the miracles with my very own eyes; or else, I'm a hardcore atheist pegging the nearest Christian as a lunatic. To ignore what I've seen (six miracles in all. Yes, my family is Christian) would make me a moron. Me, personally. So, I believe....

[FreeCapital]

in the Christian God and I believe that God is disappointed by some of the writers of the Bible claiming divine inspiration for everything they wrote, but he will forgive them as he will us. This adds up for me. There is no way to reach a logical conclusion, because logic only tests the reasoning behind a conclusion, so I'll just say it adds up with what I've seen and what I deduce from reading the Bible. This has put me at odds with most of my family. That's OK. If I am ignorant on this..

[FreeCapital]

then I know God will forgive me. Just as a parent does not shove a child's hand into the flame just to make a point after the child puts his/her hand to close to the fire for the 2nd or third time, so it is with God; that he will forgive our ignorance. To leave humanities salvation in their own hands and leave them to guess and suffer the consequences of their own DNA and upbringing would be ridiculous. God is not ridiculous. In sum, it's a two step process for you. First, do you believe..

[FreeCapital]

in a God? Secondly, do you believe in the God of the Bible? Thirdly (I know I said two, but I missed a step) what in the Bible makes sense to you in what you know about God. That decision must be make by your Intuition and not on what is most pleasing and convenient for you. This is the hardest part. As someone who has dealt with this issue and even suffered some depression for it, the road will be tough, but you will come out a stronger believer, whichever way you choose to go. God Bless.

[tacoma200]

@FreeCapital Thanks for taking time to watch my video and respond with your own thoughts. I think it is good that we can talk about it. I always like to listen to both sides when it come to this subject. It's always helpful and interesting to see how others make this choice. Lance

[Nysamis]

I think the core difference between people of faith and people who look at the world from a more empirical standpoint is the use of Ockham's Razor. The spiritually inclined are more apt to interpret awesome phenomena to a supernatural entity without first looking for natural causes.

Perhaps this stems from an innate need to connect to something greater. Sharing faith with others could help forge a community. Perhaps this is what sustains believers. I don't know. This INTP didn't get it either.

[IrreducibleParadox]

This is a really interesting question, since I've made the opposite journey.

Emotions aren't based in logic. Reasoning is and although you can reason illogically, you can't feel logically.

Faith is the idea that a substantial something lies beyond comprehension. There's a lot you can't really touch with simple description, that isn't computable, or satisfying to be thought of as such.

Faith isn't something you think, it's something you feel. You can't explain how you feel, only describe it

[tacoma200]

Yes that is interesting that you made an opposite journey. I am always open to a better understanding.

[jackooboy1]

I think that faith is a good thing. It's an outlet... Approaching faith as an INTP we're never really sure there's one path, because there are a million possibilities. In the end I choose to have a Christian faith because it allows me to relate to our society in a meaninful and positive way while expressing the ultimate mystery (God) which surpasses all human understanding, therefore, liberating thought, people, possibilities, etc.

[gringotroller]

I used to be an atheist but after looking through the bible, found that Jesus' teachings surprisingly DO make logical sense. I don't interpret Christianity as most Christians do but the new testament seems to have a clear grasp on the difference between right and wrong. I don't go to church or pray in the traditional sense, but do consider myself a Christian. Oh and I'm INTP

[bobgort2009]

tacoma200: I'm an INTP, have an engineering degree and a law degree and I'm an evangelical Christian. For me, Christianity is the best answer for all the information (knowledge) I currently have. The Kalam argument is strong that there must have been a Creator. The bibliology of the New Testament strongly supports its credibility. I've also taught critical thinking at the college level. Learning those tools has been important - learn how to unpack and dissect arguments. It all builds up.

[BlackNerd91]

However, faith only becomes illogical when one claims it as fact without the proper amount of evidence. Remember this, belief != knowledge. Hope I explained this well.

[BlackNerd91]

Hello fellow INTP. I've come to the conclusion (not a complete one due to my P-ness) that faith is indeed logical. The fact that our tiny human brains are unable to comprehend such a deity turns us to the choice of believing or disbelieving (faith). Even atheists have faith. Their faith is based on the belief that there is no god. There isn't enough evidence to validate both sides.

[sniktawleahcim]

are you J F Sebastian from the movie Blade Runner?

[MarmaladeINFP]

I don't have religious beliefs. Rather, I have subjective experience that are deeply felt. An INFP's Fi leads to a clear sense of knowing, but this can't be communicated to someone who lacks that experience. To the INFP, this experience is data on which they base their opinions, beliefs, conclusions; but the experience comes first. Also thin boundary types (roughly equivalent to NF) not only believe more in the paranormal but claim to experience the paranormal. A paranormal experience is data.

[tacoma200]

Most strong INTP or INTJ's don't base much core beliefs in subjective experiences not matter how deeply felt. Most of us don't trust our feeling and will try to rationalize (or dismiss) any feeling or subjective input into our belief system. I'm sure that is hard for an F to understand just as it is hard for a T to understand why F's put emphasis on subjective experiences. We distrust such input. I'm not knocking F's for I am truly fond of them even if we think differently. Peace!

[MarmaladeINFP]

I learned to be very intellectually objective from my ENTJ dad. As both parents were TJ types, the world of practical reality and objective data is something I understand even though it's outside my dominant function. I had to learn to prove my subjective experience objectively, and so objectivity isn't necessarily in contradiction with my Fi experience. I accept all data whether objective or subjective because to my Ne it's all interesting.

[dmacdynamite]

INTP and religious. Kierkegaard "The rejection of the objectivity of possessed truth does not imply subjective relativism, and the consequence of ineradicable anxiety, since a stable and concrete view may be established by way of the decision to trust God who is Love (unassailable, unassailed dogma as bedrock or pole-star for thought). A fully developed subjectivity recognises itself to be 'untruth'; trusting itself not to itself, nor the instances of society, but to its Creator and Saviour."

[rackers]

Hey INTP. I may have an excellent intellectual challenge for you.

You are probably aware of the Drake equation. If not, it calculates the potential number of extraterrestrial civilizations in our universe. Many atheist scientists such as Carl Sagan believe in this equation as well as extra terrestrial life. We unfortunately have no proof of extra terrestrial life, however, in this instance we consider this belief okay.

How is it okay to believe is some things without proof but not others?

[rackers]

Us INTPs are also by nature iNtuative. We tend to focus our attention on the big picture rather than the details, and on future possibilities rather than immediate realities.

So I by our extremely limited knowledge of science, the idea of an external force is worth at least consideration as a possibility of the cause of the Big Bang.

We are quick to discard theories which have no proof due to modern technology, while many of our current theories would have been unprovable centuries ago.

[tacoma200]

I guess I consider these questions unknowns. I have no answers. I spend a lot of time listening to debates between theist and non-theist. I don't rule out any possibility but in debates between top scientist and say Christian fundamentalist the scientist seem to make a stronger argument. Yes we have a very limited understanding of the universe at this time. You make excellent points though.

[pfleazy1787]

@rackers because we think logicly, and its 100% logical to think that if life can exist here on earth, that it can exist somwhere else, and every other planet is a chance for life, and if you can comprehend how many planets there are (which you probly cant) then it becomes ignorant to think there isnt life out there... and there is absolutley no logic behind any main religeon we have, its all faith, so in regards to that, there is some logic to believing in aliens, and no logic to believe in god

[jackooboy1]

No Logic? You're discounting thousands of years of the human experience as illogical? These are people with their own space/time and they are making sense of their world. There is value in that and you can learn from it. Religion, if you analyze it (and it isn't all evangelical nuts) is very deep and ultimately where most philosophical discussions lead.

[brikiss77]

As a young child I was very religious, but now to not entirely believe in God, I discussed this with my church counselor and she said that I have to keep finding answers. One answer I have come up with is that God is a theory and that while there is no evidence to suggest he does exist there is no definitive evidence proving he doesn't exist. Sry if this isn't much help

[crystalship42]

Faith is not believe in something, is search for something...the day that U found or see with your bare eyes, and your brain can process with reasonable explanation what for you was unexplained. Can be God or whatever U find. Then your search will be over and you will need no more faith. You'll be back home.

[crystalship42]

My think is, God is reason, creates everything in perfect organization and timing, the First Cause from where all things comes. We try to razonalizes because is our nature. That nature wrap with humanity still inside of us like a force, looking for a way back home. And then is when faith starts working...Faith is supose to maintain you searching and learning your way home.

[crystalship42]

I'm HSP person, spiritual searcher by nature. For me faith is what makes U search for something U don't totally know. Like who you are from where U comes from and where are U going. Faith is not the End, just the engine that makes U search for more and open the Book of Posibilities. Have to be active.

[brentintoronto]

i'm an INTP, and have tried earlier in my life to be someone of Christian faith, but I realized I was driven to do it more by a desire for belonging rather than an inclination toward believing in things based on faith. I couldn't stick to it because I realized how different I was, and I felt even more of an outsider. I didn't have the strict Christian upbringing you had, so perhaps it was easier for me to walk away. Upbringing is "software", and our personality is "hardware"..and they mingle

[XwoooahX]

INTJ and raised in a Christian home. As I grew older my faith wavered as I learned more about the world around me.

I'm an atheist now because there is no good evidence for God, and throughout my younger years I learned that God if he exists, has no interest in giving me any concrete evidence of his existence anyway.

I guess the J part of me has me act on my doubts and abandon religion until something comes along to change my mind.

[intplioness]

Fellow INTP:Hey!

Absolutely. Faith is based on fact. You have faith in a person based on knowledge of who that person is.

Belief in something without evident demonstration of reality is credulity.

It is the same with God.

To go into it here would make a very long comment.

As a place to start I will ask some questions: Do you believe the universe had a beginning?

Do you believe that everything that happens in the universe has a cause?

Wouldn't the universe then require an external cause?

[malawidubNZ]

Am a possible INTP or INTJ not 100% sure.

Faith was powerful remedy for anxiety in a time when our questions out-weighed our answers.

Times have changed and as it always will our perception on life and what we know of it has changed.

Faith is now only left for the few who are not strong enough to face our mortality.

But men are not easy to change their ways nor admit they were wrong. And this will go on to be 1 of the many catalysts for the downfall of humanity.

Peace all.

[Rweigel80]

I look at faith in a broader sense than you...not religious-based. When the primordial ooze evolved into a fish, there had to be an intention, a reasoning behind it even if it took millions of year. That's faith--belief--in a higher power that both works outside our system and is within our system

[tacoma200]

Thank you for your insightful comment. I appreciate your input.

[nok775]

2 My belief in God takes me out of myself and makes me be a better person than I otherwise would be. Not to take anything away from non-believers who do good things, I just know that I personally would not do as much good.

3 Believing in a God that has a plan for the universe gives me a chance to worry less about things I cannot control

Thank you for getting us to think about the question

Norman

[nok775]

I also am an INTP. I continue in the faith that I was raised in. I find these 3 reasons a good enough reason

1 If there is a God and afterlife and I dont do anything about it (no belief, action or worship) I probably wont do too well in the afterlife (this is self-serving but still motivating).

[slapshotbob]

After much consideration, I have come to the conclusion that a moderate form of Judaism is more likely to be right than any other religious or philosophical position. I admit this could be wrong, but it the best judgement I could make. I think that the Jews beat the Christians in an argument. And, I think that there is at least some truth to the "Old Testament" because I cannot believe Jewish history could be an accident. Such a tiny people making such an influence on the world is really amazing

[slapshotbob]

"Faith" and "Belief" are different things. "Faith" is the ethnocentric acceptance of your parents religion. "Belief" is more of an educated guess. I consider myself a person of belief. I'm an INTP (with a weak T), and my parents were intermarried. My father was a Jew, my mother a protestant, and most of my friends were Catholics. I realized as a teenager that logically, at least on half of my family had to be wrong. This forced me to think independently about religion.

[BallentineChen]

This yankee's telling you that your southern accent doesn't strike me as dumb.

[roidroid]

Good luck man. i suppose i left Christianity for similar type-related reasons.

(INFP here, now Atheist)

Grew up in a hardliner religious situation. But i just couldn't bring myself to label any type of person or activity as inherently wrong. Whenever i was supposed to be judgemental - i instead found myself overwhelmed with natural curiosity.

Also, questioning was taboo. Bleh.

[kj01a]

2nd post

needs no logical evidence because it itself is logical. Now am I saying you can't believe with out faith. No. All Im saying is you must believe in a different way, in my opinion a far more wholesome way. When I give this argument people say well if you believe this way how can you do it with no proof. In my opinion the questions not the answers are the proof. I mean how can you question somthing that isn't there

[kj01a]

Hi Im INTP. I think you have some good points and here goes my opinion. Faith itself is logical because it is faith. True faith is believeing in something with out needing any evidence. Therefore true faith is logical. The only problem is true faith is almost non existent. Don't get me wrong I strongly believe that you should question your beliefs because that is how you learn. The only problem is you can't have faith that way. Now maybe thats a good thing and maybe it isn't. All I know is faith

[tenyrsgone]

I totally agree with you. I always test INTJ, but my boyfriend insists that I am an ENFJ.... regardless, I agree with you about everything you said about faith. I also strongly dislike religion because it seems to me just to be a power structure that benefits the people at the top (priests, etc), and tells people to not think for themselves

[Obsidean]

Why does that remind me of society?

[tenyrsgone]

You like Ron Paul? I like you :P