Does God Exist? (Part 3) *Must the first cause be conscious?*

[NickBlackDIN]

hey kyle, i can't find th pm function thing. butanyway's you free to do some drumming this or next weekend?

[Gnomefro]

It should also be clear that you would be in the wrong in that situation, no matter if logic exists as a transcendental entity or not - because you're contradicting your own standard. Now, before we had agreed upon a common system of labeling it wouldn't have mattered to anyone else, but failure to adhere to A=A clearly destroys all forms of communication and other people would be unable to relate to what you say at all. Even if it was all subjective definitions agreed upon in a community.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Gnomefro On the contrary, I have in no way contradicted myself in anyone of my videos on Does God Exist, especially this one. When you make all the connections and tie all the knots, it actually all comes together without error. I am in no way contradicting any standard. As a matter of fact, these are not my standards. As for logic being a system, how can a system even have an objective standard if everything is subjective?

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Gnomefro Let's look at it as this, if there is no objective standard for logic, than you can have any logic which never has an objective standard that calls it invalid, valid, or sound. Now you might say we invented the standard, but our standard's are always subjective and therefore the standard to the logic we create is subjective. If that's true, than your logic is only an opinion which I don't have to follow because as far as I am concerned, my logic is just as valid and sound.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Gnomefro Now since I know you won't stipulate to that, I know you may than say it is possible that the standard was always there and we just found it. Well if that's true, how was it there? Who created it? Obviously something had to because laws don't just happen unless something or someone creates them. Was it abstract or conscious? Obviously it would have to be conscious because something like 7 cannot create the law of non-contradiction or the standard of morality for that matter.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Gnomefro Either way you look at it, you can't just have any Joe Shmo tell me that this is a standard because he said so or because him and bunch of other people said so. Why? Because the formula is still only created by subjective beings with subjective standards which are subjective to change. Since that is the case, any logic is acceptable due to the fact that since there is no objective standard that says other wise, no logic could be invalid or unsound.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Gnomefro Again, since I know you won't stipulate to that, I can only guess it's because you do believe in an objective standard and the very second you do that, your presupposing God's existence because God is the objective standard.

[Gnomefro]

You can also view the laws of logic on a more human level. If I point to something and say "We'll call that A", and you agree, yet down the line when I point to that something again and ask you to name it, you answer B. You're both contradicting your own labeling standard and demonstrating inability to relate to reality. It would be a useless behavior regardless of whether or not reality operated according to transcendental logic.

[Gnomefro]

So logic is really nothing more than a set of restrictions a classification system must obey to let us talk about the things that are being classified. Again, this is not "immaterial truth", but ways of making our reality models function without contradiction. Ultimately, the laws of logic can be said to be a formalization of the concept of existence, because existence is the natural set of existing things, but it's not like the laws exist as a separate entity.

[Gnomefro]

Mathematics is not non-material. Our systems of mathematics exists in human brains and computers, both of which are material. Similarly, logic does not exist as a non-material entity. Rather, it's a consequence of you deciding to assign a label to something you observe for the purpose of distinguishing it from something else. If you ever find that A doesn't equal A, it means your classification system is broken and can't be used to perform deductive reasoning with.

[Gnomefro]

You also have a very strange view of mathematics. Mathematics is axiomatic. 2*2=4 solely because of the way normal mathematics has defined real numbers and the * operator. There are other ways to do it, and those systems have other properties than the most common system. They are not "false". They will simply be different.

[4thcoming]

Great video bro! God bless.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@4thcoming :) thanks a lot! God bless you as well.

[Anonymous247n]

Maybe you should know that i belong to the Zeitgeist movement. And we believe people are capable of making a "heaven" on earth, with everybody absolutely free and working together, living in harmony and peace. Now imagine such people sent to hell simply for not worshipping... it wouldn't be right. And if you think god would do that, then i disagree with god (or with you) here. Because i don't make excuses and exceptions for god - he must make sense to me. Right now, he simply doesn't.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@brettkeanedotcom Yeah I know lol. I just messed up, but later thought I just didn't care. I felt it was more important to have the information out there if anything. The video is still watchable so it's not a total loss. I am hoping for a better camera for Christmas or somehow by members of youtube that wish to help me have better quality videos to do more with my videos. I already have 5 others topics ready to go, I just give each video about 3 weeks. Maybe I'll have a better camera than eh

[TheRealDarthKye]

@brettkeanedotcom done

[TheRealDarthKye]

@brettkeanedotcom And I for yours :) Interesting how you chose the topic as I already had a video for the topic prepared and ready to go.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n In some small way, people still believe their choices will be judged in the end, because some people who call themselves atheists still try to hold themselves in check fearing the end, but my question would still be, if you don't fear a God's existence and concluding judgement, why fear the end? People will often say because they want to die and be remembered a good person, but I know it's because they fear what happens next more than what those of the living think of them.

[Anonymous247n]

@TheRealDarthKye So being that i do not reject god i DO NOT CHOOSE hell, in no way. If i knew or even had a hunch that god might exist, i'd... um... well to be honest, i live as good as i can. I try hard to contribute to society and be helpful to other people and i really hope i will be able to do more and more in the coming years. And i guess i didn't CHOOSE to go to heaven by doing so, i just want to see the people around me happy and well. So no fear, just hope here :)

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n But you'd be living according to your will and your standards. You'd be putting yourself before God and that in itself is wrong. I know at first it may sound like your throwing your life away when your putting someone else's plan's above your own, but your actually not. God knows what is truly best for your life, better than you or I. Because of that, you would be living an even better life for God than one you could ever live on your own.

[Anonymous247n]

@TheRealDarthKye I actually thought a lot about "what if" scenarios, what if i did something different, could it have been better? And i know such questions are pointless. God may have the ability to know what's best for people but since we have free will WE can also do good on our own. I think christians always say YOU CAN'T BE PERFECT or even good in god's eyes, that's why everyone has to repent even their slightest mistakes. And i don't see much point here, we aren't perfect so why punish us?

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n As for being a good person, this may be hard to understand at first, but there is no such thing as a good person, or for that matter an evil person. Now I can see you already naming people off in your head for the good things they have done; however, they are not what defines good. God is necessarily good because without God's necessary good nature, there would be no standard of good which we could define as being the standard of good.

[Anonymous247n]

@TheRealDarthKye You see, if god punishes us for not being perfect then he should have just made us perfect. I've been thinking just yesterday, why even put that tree into the garden of eden - it wasn't a test because god already knew adam&eve would eat from it. Now i don't know if you take it literally but it's a strong metaphor and just shows how god is TOYING with people and doesn't have the best in store for them. So i definitely think we make our own standards of good and bad...

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n First of all, God is not punishing us because we are not perfect. We have punishment for breaking his divine law about sin. I tell you right now that I will never ever be perfect; however, I know I will still have God's free gift of salvation. The fact that I have sinned doesn't me I am doomed. That's why Christ came; to be our penal substitution for God's law. If Christ never came, than I would be doomed; not because I fell short of perfection, but because I sinned.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n Now God did see that adam and eve would fall, but again he saw that they wouldn't fall. He sees on a level which we don't understand. So there is still a test because He allows them to choose which path they want to take already fully knowing what will happen and sees what will happen for each one. Again try to not view it with what your eyes see, but what the God of eyes sees.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n Now as for your saying we make our own standards, however, that does not make them the absolute standard. Our views of standard will always be subjective, but that doesn't make it absolute. Where God's standard is always subjective and therefore will always be absolute.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n So when you choose God, believe in the crucifixion as well as the resurrection, the Word of Christ, live your life by His will/His law, and love others by the example of love define in the gospel's along with 1 Cor 13, and teach the Word of God to all you than won't go to Hell. You won't be defined a good, but your actions will be good which would make you a nice person who is Christian. I know this may be hard to hear for some, but just being good isn't good enough.

[Anonymous247n]

@TheRealDarthKye And just being good not being good enough - i don't believe that. If god is benevolent, OMNI isn't even needed here, then he won't send good people to hell. And i can not spread the word of a god who would, because such a god deserves no worship or praise. So i am pretty sure that if god is, and is really a good god, i have nothing to fear. Theoretically, because i fear nothing right now. Might change my mind, but not yet convinced. But i'd probably just believe in "my" god :)

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n Again your still viewing it as God is sending you to Hell and that's not the true context of what's happening at all. If you don't choose God and choose your sinful ways, than you are effectively rejecting God and choosing Hell. You may say your not, but there is only two conclusions and as scripture says, you can't set up camp in two different camps that contradict each other at the same time. You either choose God, or you don't.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n either way you choose to reject God full well knowing that your choosing your sinful ways will you be choosing Hell. Either choice you make though, it doesn't decide the good nature of God at all. God's nature is omni benevolent irregardless of our actions, even if our actions are bad. God's nature is determined by our actions. Allow me to ask you this, is it truly loving of you to make a wife for yourself that can't not love you? Is that still really love? No.

[Anonymous247n]

@TheRealDarthKye I understand now god is an ultimate being that defines right and wrong. Even if we feel different. Because he isn't like a human we don't understand his ways. So he may defy our sense of morality, and he may basically do whatever and it WILL be the right thing. Well... sorry to say but that is special pleading and if god made humans in his image we should be much more similar. Ask yourself this - is it right to PUNISH somebody who doesn't love you?

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n What is more loving is when God allows us to choose whether or not we want to love Him and that love is good because it is unconditional and free choice. Such a God deserves more than worship and praise because He paid for your salvation so you would not die to sin, but have everlasting life. God did not defy His law, but fulfilled the requirements of the law so you would live. That if anything, is true omni benevolent God of love.

[Anonymous247n]

@TheRealDarthKye I really can't take this double standard, don't you see that you are perfectly fine with god being a tyrant? Being a willing victim is not admirable! So again, why does god insist we must praise and worship him in the first place? Why give us free choice if he knows we'll sin - and why punish sinners? WHY DO PEOPLE HAVE TO OBEY GOD AND LIVE BY HIS LAW? Does god somehow need it, or want it, or what is the reason? I do will never believe in an irrational god...

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n Remember to try and not view God through our worldly view glasses and finite understanding of Him. When you do is when you'll start to see who God is.

[Anonymous247n]

@TheRealDarthKye So i am sorry but i can't make exceptions for god. If it is wrong for me to do something, then it is the same for god. I would never punish somebody for not loving, praising or worshipping me, REGARDLESS of what i would have done for them. Personally, i didn't even ask god to do anything for me, and i don't have any way to know he did or will do anything for me - the only rational thing to do is that i WAIT and see. And if god is the unfair tyrant that your religion says he is..

[Anonymous247n]

@Anonymous247n ...well then i'll just have to go to hell. It won't be fair and it won't be pleasant, but it will be the only possible thing because i can not accept a gangster boss to be the target of my affections and worship. But i believed (a few years ago) that god is REALLY omnibenevolent, so it may all turn out good for everyone.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n Again you are only viewing God in your image and in your understanding. God does not defy our sense of morality, He defines morality itself. You should remember the fact that maybe your morality might be kind, but another's morality might be dark and twisted. I think what your finding is it being hard to accept the fact that our actions are not what saves us. Also you say God is a tyrant, but if man chooses Hell, is that really God's fault? Does that make God a tyrant?

[Anonymous247n]

@TheRealDarthKye Well i must say, you took your time and i've really enjoyed this discussion. I will listen to John Mcarthur, i already found the video you suggested. There are still points we don't really agree on, for example i'd like to understand god much better if i'm to believe in him. Good point too that some people may not have a perfect moral compass, but to be honest, such people may find it even harder to understand god's motives.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n I assure you now, no matter how much you use a subjective standard to change the world, your efforts will not reach the desired conclusion. I do not say this to be mean, but to be realistic. Look at the world right now around us with their beliefs, historical traditions, and so forth; war is breading like fire over a vast expansion and it's mostly to do with people fighting for their subjective standard.

[Anonymous247n]

@TheRealDarthKye I must also say that NOONE would consciously choose hell. Just think about it, if given a choice of eternal bliss or eternal torture, who would choose torture? NOBODY, trust me, it's not a choice. If i land in hell i won't have chosen it, i just wasn't convinced, and it will be god's fault because he could have left better proof for us irreparable skeptics :) Lol anyway, it's not a choice, especially for those brought up in other religions (!)

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n lol well of course no one consciously chooses Hell, that would be ludicrous haha. However, if people knew God existed 100% because He revealed Himself entirely to us, than obviously we'd choose Him because we wouldn't want Hell. Hence why He doesn't fully reveal Himself, because it would effect the nature of freewill. The choice is there because nothing is fully revealed to a point that your decision is based off of fear and not desire.

[Gnomefro]

@TheRealDarthKye Your thinking around how God's hiddenness somehow produces free will is very peculiar. What it actually does is make belief in the hidden entity unsupported, and therefore indistinguishable from the nonexistent. This obviously bothers you, because you also claim everyone, including atheists, already know that he exists, which should then destroy human free will completely.

In reality, what we call free will is simply deciding between known options without severe compulsion.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n It's also not God's fault that you weren't convinced. You see you already know He exists. Now you might be saying to yourself, "no I don't, that's why we're having this discussion in the first place"; however, a piece of scripture comes to mind in the book of John about those who are of the world love the darkness and hate the light (Jesus Christ) because their sinful deeds become revealed. In other words, they recognize what they are doing is wrong.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n Why do they hate the light? Because than they have to acknowledge the fact that they have committed wrongs their whole life and rather than want to change it, they hate the light or have trouble with the light because they have a hard time letting go of that which they were used to, like to do, or traditionally do. In the end though, God has left the perfect amount of proof of His presence that allows you to choose Him, or reject Him.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n It must be a free choice of love and desire for God rather than choosing God because you don't want Hell. So in the end my friend, it is a choice because enough evidence has been given for you to believe in God's existence. Hmmmm here's a good example, let's say I stood before you now and asked you if I exist, obviously you'd say yes right? You can't deny it because I am standing right before you.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n Now let's say I said believing in me, loving me, and following my commands will result in you living and everlasting life of everlasting love, peace, etc... But rejecting my existence and throwing your lot in with sin would result in you going to Hell, obviously your going to believe my existence, love me, and follow my commands because you don't want to go to Hell. Now the question is are you following the commands because you want to, or because you have to?

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n Is your love conditional or unconditional? Did you even truly have a choice or was it heavily influenced? Now take away just enough of my presence in such a manner that your decision is not based out of obvious proof. What happens now, you may very well deny I even exist. However, if you believe I exist, it's because you believe by faith and not by sight and you want to follow everything and love me unconditionally because that's the choice you wanted to make.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n Part of the reason you you obey God's law is because God's law is perfectly good. I've studied the law of God for years and it's main purpose is of an ultimate love which man's subjectivism cannot provide. Now I don't know if your concerned about God still loving you even if you turn from Him, but I assure you He does. God's love for you never stops even if you turn from Him. That standard of love is so great and so powerful that He still loved the ones who killed His only Son.

[Anonymous247n]

@TheRealDarthKye People really say nice things about god's love, but then they turn to those threats of hell and i think hell just isn't acceptable as it can turn gullible or irrational people toward god FOR THE WRONG REASON. I am pretty sure god wouldn't like to be only feared! But anyway, i am not concerned because i got a good feeling, no matter what. Yeah, guess i'm optimistic :)

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n If that's not a powerful love, I don't know what is. Also, my faith, not religion, does not say God is a tyrant. If your referring to the Old Testament, I wish to point out God was protecting His people. Again I ask you to listen to John MacAruther's The Actions of Kingdom Love and this will all make sense. You listen to my videos all the time and probably have spent hours writing me, yet the message for Actions of Kingdom love is only 35 min if that. Why not listen to it?

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n I know at first it's hard to grasp, but I assure you, God does not want anyone to go to Hell. He doesn't want anyone to suffer the devil's fate. God's law is a law of love, grace, peace, etc.., and I promise you as a believer for 22 years that I have been looking at this for sometime and know this is the truth. If you want anyone to blame for those who will end up in Hell, blame the Devil. He whispers in your ears that you can be just as good as God; he is the father of lies.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n The Devil doesn't care about your morality or your life; the Devil knows that he is done and he will suffer in the end, but his plan is to not go alone. The devil will say thing like, "of course you can steal that fruit, it doesn't cost a whole lot anyways so it's not like their really losing out", or even better "you don't need God's standard, your standard is obviously better so why should you feel guilty about it?". The Devil will even twist the thoughts in your mind to win you

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n he'll even come in the form of an angel, a false miracle, etc... But it's not because he wants to free you from God, he wants to die a thousand times over in a burning lake of fire where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. God doesn't want you to suffer like this or for that matter anyone. God's law is perfect and a law of love. If someone you know says their good is good enough, it's only because that's what the Devil told them.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n The Devil wants you to believe your standard and will are greater than God's when in fact, God's will, and God's standard for us all is of a higher greater infinite love which we will never fully understand. As I said before, the only one anyone has to blame for going to Hell in the end is not God, but the Devil and themselves for choosing sin as their way of life.

[Anonymous247n]

@TheRealDarthKye So in conclusion, thanks a lot, you really stand out among the theists i've been speaking to on youtube (most get angry or arrogant and pretty fast) and i'll check out that video you suggested right now, and of course anything you may upload in the future. So have a nice day! :)

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n :) thanks very much by the way. I try to do my best in staying rash/rational during a debate/discussion because the whole point I find of Christian apologetics is to listen and speak calm cool and collectively (the 3 C's). That and always try to be fair to the other person. I've met some of those Christians you speak of and to be honest, boy they get my coals burning considering the damage they do. But I try not to think about it too much.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n Anywho, I best be getting some rest but it was great talking with you as well and I hope as well as am sure we will do so again. Take care and God bless.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n At that point, I cannot blame God for where they end up so much as sadness for their choosing it. Now I know some people say, "no one would ever choose Hell". But people do it all the time. People are fully aware that their choices will have consequences in the end as well as what those consequences are. People can pretend all they want that their actions will bear no consequences, but the truth is their only fooling themselves.

[Anonymous247n]

@TheRealDarthKye I also have to repeat this - many people (most) DO NOT REJECT god! I am a pretty honest atheist and i really don't believe in his existence because it doesn't seem logical enough. I don't even think about it that much, it's just a hobby to be on youtube and look for debates :) Anyhow, i do not fear death, but it's natural that people fear death - it is the end of life, and one thing everybody knows instinctively is, that is't good to be alive :P

[Anonymous247n]

I don't know, i guess as an agnostic atheist i DARE to be more harsh when looking at god's supposed actions. Dare to look critically and neutrally, without the "god did it therefore it was the right thing to do" goggles. Whatever, i think this is the main difference between theists and atheists, otherwise we are often very much alike.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n But you see, because you don't know all that is right and all that is wrong, you think the vision is narrowed by glasses when in fact it's a natural field of vision. The rules are black and what when you know them in there full context, you know that the "do the right thing" field of vision is something you'll not only recognize, but want to do.

[Anonymous247n]

I know i'm jumping around a bit but well, that's how it is - my basic points, morality came from "i don't want that to be done to me so i won't do that to others" and is man made, changing through cultures and societies. AND, god is either a changing personality, or he planned to make all those mistakes and those flawed attempts to solving them (burning sodom and gomorrah, sacrificing jesus for no good reason, killing people when if omnipotent he could find a morally better way). Yeah :)

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n Secondly, God doesn't make mistakes. We have to remember my other video on freewill which points out people were allowed to do whatever we wanted. As for Jesus sacrifice, it was for so much. There isn't enough room on here to say all it in fine detail did, but in short, His sacrifice fulfilled the penal substitution of the Law (Torah) *See my other video on Trinity*.

[Anonymous247n]

@TheRealDarthKye It is incredible that so many people in the old times, they even supposedly witnessed god's miracles, and still kept on turning away from him. I mean, it's obviously a metaphor for man's stubborn disbelief. Jesus... well, i won't go into that but i would find a more elegant way if i were god. A substitution of the law? Whose law? You see, god could DEFINITELY have predicted all the problems and could really solve them in a more humane way, i mean i feel sorry for Jesus!

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n Well that would be God's law. Why would God answer to God's law, because God cannot break that which is contradictory to His divine necessarily infinitely good nature. Because He created the law, part of the law says that the wages of sin is death. So, Christ comes as our perfect penal substitution, who is both man *finite* and God *infinite*. So He is answering to His own law and paying for us so that we will not be eternally damned but saved by His unearned salvation.

[Anonymous247n]

@TheRealDarthKye Well if he were infinitely good he would not have created such "evil" laws. Like "as soon as adam and eve eat that fruit all humanity is doomed to hell", doesn't make sense if he was all knowing. Infinitely good? An infinitely good being would not allow anyone, ANYONE, and here i am adamant, to go to hell! Infinitely able to forgive (for breaking the law that doesn't make sense anyway), an all-benevolent god would never let anyone be eternally damned for their finite mistakes.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n Actually He never created any "evil" laws. Sin will not be where the new heaven will be and the wages of sin itself is death. God allowed Adam and Eve to have freewill in choosing themselves over God. Because they are the beginning of the line of man, all of man is born into sin and the wage for sin or punishment is death. It is not an "evil" law to have a punishment because sin is itself evil and evil cannot reside in the kingdom of God.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n Also, we need to remember that just because God is all knowing doesn't mean He will prevent someone from sinning. A God who is truly loving allows us to freely choose to love Him or reject Him. Also, God's goodness is not dependent on our choices. Just because God is infinitely good does not mean His infinite goodness only depends on our all going to heaven. Because God is infinitely good, we have been given a choice and we are more than well aware of the consequences

[Anonymous247n]

@TheRealDarthKye Hmm, well the way this sounds to me is that god is all-knowing and all-lawful, not all-good. Because he supposedly knows all BUT doesn't act for the best of humanity - to insure we all go to heaven. He acts only according to his laws, which aren't fair, according to how i understand them and because we are only human and MADE very fallible and so likely to go down the way of sin... because so many things are sin :P

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n It's not like God will surprise you in the end with condemnation due to the fact that you didn't know the consequences for your actions, if anything, God has revealed everything that will happen if you choose to walk away from Him and live your life in/for sin. An infinitely good God as He is has fully given us the free will and the knowledge to choose.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n Also, no mistake is finite. You see, we make the common mistake of determining how God views things through our finite understanding, but for God, sin is infinitely wrong/offensive and by His law, Sin is infinitely punishable. Hence why Christ came to be our penal substitution. If we reject Christ, than we choose the punishment of sin; however, if we choose God, than we choose the grace and the salvation God has given freely.

[Anonymous247n]

@TheRealDarthKye Well again, you said "fod God, sin is infinitely wrong/offensive and by His law, Sin is infinitely punishable". NOT A SIGN OF A LOVING GOD! Just think of god as a judge again - if a judge said to you "yeah you stole some bubblegum but it offends me infinitely so you will go to jail for infinite time", would you think it's fair? Again, why is it fair if god does it? I guess i am just trying too hard to... believe that god supposedly made man in his own image.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n Now the question you may ask than is "well don't Christians still sin?" and the answer is yes, but we constantly strive to be more Christ like as Christ commands while asking for forgiveness for our sins. We choose God first before ourselves; His will before ours. Christ is our savior and when we acknowledge this, teach this, and live as commanded by Christ, we know that even when we stumble, we still have the salvation because of Christ.

[Anonymous247n]

@TheRealDarthKye Now, imagine that judge saying to you "Oh, did i mention there will be eternal torture?". Now i don't know if that's the work of the devil or of god, but this i can not accept! I wouldn't even want a criminal who would kill my whole family to suffer for eternity! Does that mean i'm better or more benevolent than god, or that i just understand how human beings work better, of that i see that his laws make no sense/ CAN NOT be applied to humans?

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n However, if you reject Christ, than you reject the salvation He has freely given and have freely chosen the punishment of sin which is an infinite crime which deserves infinite punishment.

[Anonymous247n]

@TheRealDarthKye The way i see it, god is punishing people who are NOT adam for adam's mistake. That is not fair, is it? What would you say if a judge would give say your father 200 years in prison (i know there is such punishment in america) but he'd die there after 50 years. So they would put YOU in prison next, and if you had children, they would keep putting them in prison until that 200 year sentence is served! Fair? You bet it isn't, so why is it fair if god does it?

[Anonymous247n]

@TheRealDarthKye Just one last thing - i do not reject christ, and i am adamant here. I simply am not convinced he is god, or his father is god, or that there is such a thing as god. And of course, since there is no proof but the bible, and one can choose one of the other ancient holy books if they want, it really makes sense to not believe any of those ancient books simply by faith - it takes more to convince many people, including me.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n Well the Bible isn't the only evidence. In fact I have used a lot of logic to reveal the existence of God and how He must exist. I have also used logic/biblical scripture to explain how Christ must be both man and God at the same time. I would suggest giving them all another look and try to put all the pieces together with them, because I tell you when it comes down it, God does exist and Christ Jesus His Son is who we need in so many more ways than we know.

[Anonymous247n]

@TheRealDarthKye Hah, it's kinda funny how using the same logic we come to different conclusions. Well you know, maybe i'm just idealising god, trying to have him the way i want to, and maybe it's not up to me. I sure hope i'm right though... trust me, i would really like to have... well, maybe a few hundred more years to live (eternity will get boring in the long run lol) but i would not be able to bear the knowledge that there's hell... and i most definitely wouldn't like to be there XD

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n Well, I know one of the habits I'm sure I have as well as other Christians have is remembering that God is not a finite being; however, I find we try to look at Him as one and justify our actions. What I find amusing is people say they don't believe in God, yet they always try to justify their actions: however if there is no God, why are they justifying their actions? Now as for Hell,..

[Anonymous247n]

@TheRealDarthKye Well, people really have to justify their actions to other people, it makes perfect sense. People also like to feel good about having done the right thing, i guess that's why all this justifying. AND of course, you are partially right, some pseudo-atheists do fear the end and what might come afterward and this fear may help them make the right choices in life.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n I'll even admit, it saddens me to think some of my friends and maybe even some of my family will not enter the kingdom of God. I could spend every reason fighting for them and say they were a good person their whole life, but the fact is they have chosen to reject God. When you reject God, you reject the salvation He has given. Remember, God does not want to send anyone to Hell, if my family or friends end up living their whole life rejecting God, than it was them that chose Hell

[Anonymous247n]

@TheRealDarthKye Thinking of my family landing in hell for reasons i find absurd is simply not acceptable for me. Let's say i have one of those deathbed conversions and go to heaven, but i find my whole family in hell. I would feel like a hypocrite firstly, and i would absolutely not approve of good people being in hell. Question - do you think people like Gandhi, who were not christian, go to hell? Because what isn't right isn't right and a person's DEEDS should be the deciding factor here!

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n As for Sodom and Gomorrah I believe John MacAuthor puts it best in saying "they were a cancerous people threatening the ways and life of God's people and they had to be removed". God knew it was not yet time for his people to handle themselves from not conforming to the corruption of the world and He was protecting them right up until the end of the old testament when He allowed them to decide what they wanted to do which for most of them was corruption.

[Anonymous247n]

Also, morality is man-made. Just look at ancient societies - it was morally correct then to own slaves! Nobody complained, even god gave the rules about how to treat those slaves. Which brings me to god being unchanging... well, he sure acts very differently in the old and the new testaments. Either that or he PLANNED for adam to fail in the apple test and is therefore responsible for mankind's "flaw", or whatever original sin is supposed to be.

[Anonymous247n]

Morale is subjective. May a man steal to feed his starving family? There are so many variables here, and so many different opinions! Some may say it's immoral but necessary. Others say it's moral and even justified. Is it moral to kill a man? What if he would proceed to murder your family if you don't? As a soldier, you should know that there is no absolute morality... otherwise, as a religious person (and therefore moral) you probably wouldn't be in the military.

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247Actually there is, the problem is your misunderstanding of the laws of scripture and assuming what they say under all circumstances. Example: "Though shalt not murder". Does that mean you cannot kill under any circumstance no matter what? No. If your life is at risk from someone and they want to take your life, as long as your intentions from the very beginning were not "I want to kill this man because...", than that is okay.

[Anonymous247n]

@TheRealDarthKye Yeah, i understand that principle, it makes sense that in self defence you may be forced to be violent, though to me that is only another proof for morality being incredibly dependent on circumstances. You see, i think ABSOLUTE morality would be "you must not kill. Period!" like with no exceptions :)

[TheRealDarthKye]

@Anonymous247n Philosophy and scripture in short call this the Law of Double effect where actions revolve around intent and proportional force.