Blue Shirt or Eternal Barbecue?

[gavtronics]

Just employ the same common sense that you use everywhere else. When someone makes an extraordinary claim, you ask for a lot of evidence. Do you think the Bible is somehow an exception to this?

[gavtronics]

Correction: meant to say "talk", not walk. Anyway, there are a lot of religious books out there that make a lot of extraordinary claims. Without a bullsh-t filter, you have to accept all of them. Requiring objective, verifiable evidence is science's bullsh-t filter. What's yours?

[gavtronics]

You have it backwards. The burden of evidence is on the Bible, not me. I am not claiming snakes could walk, women came from a man's rib, etc. These are claims the BIble must prove with OBJECTIVE evidence. Forget I said compelling, it doesn't change my argument. What object evidence does the Bible provide that authenticates itself? Again, the onus is on the one making the claims. This is something Christians either dont understand or dont want to admit.

[gavtronics]

I know the Bible is about Jesus, but it tells you how to live your life. When something tells you what to do, your first question is "why?" This is where evidence comes in. But the Bible doesn't provide evidence, it only makes promises (heaven), and threats (hell.) Without evidence though, these are just empty claims. If the Bible gave away facts that no one at the time could have known, I would believe it. The prolbme is that it doesnt.

[gavtronics]

If the Bible can't authenticate itself, there's no reason to believe it. Scientific predictions would serve as good evidence because they are *not* subjective; they can be objectively verified.

[NOBODYPICKEDTHISNAME]

Sorry man, I don't mean to flood your comments, but I guess I wanted to let you know that I am not what you might think and I have my reasons for living and thinking the way I do. I can't give you my experiences and brain. I must say that living for Jesus and God isn't easy, but I've done things that I thought were impossible with the help of God.

[gavtronics]

No problem man, I appreciate hearing from you. My main beef is with creationists and theocrats. Christians are generally good people - my whole family is Christian (except me.) It's good whenever two people with different beliefs can have a conversation about it. Obviously you and I have different reasons for beleiving what we do, but in the end, we could both be wrong. Who knows?

[NOBODYPICKEDTHISNAME]

There are other predictions in the Bible that are manifesting..... such as young and old folks having dreams and visions from God, disasters, famine, pestilences, people who call themselves Jews but are the synagogue of Satan, earthquakes, wars and rumors of wars, etc.... I don't know, personally, I can't rule out the Bible completely.

[gavtronics]

These are very banal predictions though. Natural disasters have always occurred. Technology has always been increasing. People have always acted immorally. "Predicting" these things is merely pointing out what's already happening.

I don't rule out the Bible btw, I just think see no reason to accept it. There could very well be something like a god, but until there is evidence for the same, I would be foolish to believe it. But I respect people who do (most of the time.)

[NOBODYPICKEDTHISNAME]

I understand many will say that it's all a manifestation of my imagination, but they're my experiences. I have noticed that we live in a time, never before in the history of the world, where currency is no longer a tangible item and could ultimately become an implanted RFID chip... I mean, the technology and political influence exists. Now, the Bible may or may not be true, but whomever wrote it, definately was pretty intelligent in foreseeing this development in technology and currency.

[gavtronics]

Actually, one of the reasons I don't believe the Bible is that it doesn't make compelling predictions. It didn't tell us about germ theory, the size of the universe, the fact of the atoms, tectonic plates, DNA, evolution. It told us next to nothing of scientific worth. Sure it makes some broad predictions that could be interpreted as genuine, but so did Nostradamus. I would argue that Nostradamus was actually a better predictor than the Bible, though neither had any real foresight.

[gavtronics]

In a nutshell, I don't believe in a god that refuses to prove himself in an objective way. I don't believe in a god who would punish people for requiring hard evidence to believe. If a god existed and were omniscience, proving its own existence would only require lifting a finger.

So to use to old cliche, I don't believe in a good that gave me critical thinking and expected me not to use it. If you take anything on faith, there is a very real possibility your faith will be exploited.

[NOBODYPICKEDTHISNAME]

I just started reading the Bible and there are other religious books that I would like to read that I haven't read yet. God revealed Himself to me and told me to follow Jesus. That led me to reading the Bible. I've also seen Jesus. My belief is more grounded in my experiences and environment than in the Bible or religion. I understand your skepticism and desire for hard evidence, everybody has that, even me. Check out NDE's and OBE's. Also, ask God about any questions you have.

[gavtronics]

Thanks for your answers. I'd never to tell someone to do drugs, but if you've ever dropped LSD, X or other psychotropics, you have powerful religious experiences also. Similar effects can be achieved without drugs through hyposis, dreams, and other means. So for me, and even subjective personal experience is questionable. I cannot ask God questions because I don't believe it whatever god is. I don't rule out the possibility, I just don't believe it under there is *objective* evidence for it

[NOBODYPICKEDTHISNAME]

Jesus has blue t-shirts so you can always ask Him to help you get one. Acknowledging the existance of Jesus is a good first step, He suffered alot to make the shirts. If you don't want to go to the BBQ, then ask for a shirt and do whatever it takes to get one. You will have to work real hard for it and it won't be easy, but Jesus actually helps you with the work if you ask. I hope that helps... search and read about NDE and OBE, they happen ALOT in hospitals. We all have a soul made by God.

[gavtronics]

I appreciate the support but I would want to know that the Bible is true before I take it seriously. You are skeptical when it comes to every other religious book, and I treat the Bible the same way you treat every other religious book.

[forayouthfulreformr]

I think I'll leave this with you, then sign off.

What is the value of inner peace? People can feel an exceeding calm even during highly difficult times, because of the peace in their hearts.

Or, people may go_postal over smaller events, or want to.

Inner peace is a gift from God.

(Below, wicked people are simply any of us who refuse to repent, and so enjoy none of the offered forgiveness):

You can self assess. I do.

Isaiah 48:22

22 There is no peace, saith the LORD, unto the wicked.

[gavtronics]

Inner peace is great. I just don't see what your conception of a deity has anything to do with it. I'm a simple person, you;ll have to connect the dots for me.

[forayouthfulreformr]

Isaiah 48:18

18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

Isaiah 57:20-21

20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.

21 There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.

& Jude 1:10-16, 2 Peter 2:10-12, etc.

On a continuum, where are you tending toward? Deep peace or inner turmoil and rage?

She? crimemagazine(dot)com(slash)oh­air(dot)htm

Good luck.

[gavtronics]

When I die I'll be in the deep peace of nonexistence.

But regardless, why would I take the Bible as an authority on anything. You reciting Bible verses to me is about as effective as me reciting the Koran to you. Get it?

[radicalbacon]

Jesus dyed for our shirts

[forayouthfulreformr]

One of the wonderful things about the Gospel is its simplicity and sense. But Oliver Wendell Holmes said: "I wouldn't give a nickel for the simplicity on this side of complexity, but I would give my life for the simplicity on the other side of complexity."

Does God live? So you experiment. First, set up the experiment correctly:

Humble yourself, have faith, repent of your sins, obey His commandments, study the scriptures; in prayer, thank Him and ask Him for what you need, including answers.

[zamfir1970]

So in order to see if you can believe, you must first believe? Sounds a little circular.

[gavtronics]

You took the words right out of my mouth. Yeah, that's what his/her argument seems to boil down to...

[forayouthfulreformr]

If you are sincere, He answers. Then, you _know_ , not just believe.

False gods don't exist, so, of course, you get no answer. I Kings 18:21-40

Also, people who don't set up the experiment correctly get no answer, reaching the same conclusion.

In the realm of sacred truth, belief or hope precedes clear knowledge.

The Oliver Wendell Holmes quote also means I can't explain much to you in these 1 kbyte "sound bites". Gav, wouldn't it be difficult to teach someone biology at a kbyte/day?

[gavtronics]

Sincere about what?

Wrapping up emotional needs with intellectual positions is insincere, yet it is in this light that most people approach religion. Most Christians I know became Christians because there was something missing from their life, not because they wanted to understand the nature of the universe and our existence. Notice the "evidence" that sways people toward religion is generally subjective feelings, warm fuzzies, that sort of thing.

That is not the same as information, btw..

[forayouthfulreformr]

Gav, this is like teaching biology through a funnel.

Continuing with the analogy of this girl, with a change: she is reachable (at present) only by phone message or email; she receives these immediately.

She knows you say foul things about her to your friends. And other stuff: you don't even care that you offend her. Does she return your phone messages or email?

Long ago you took the role of the jilted sweetheart; this only confirms your own observations.

You haven't qualified yourself.

[gavtronics]

I appreciate the analogy, but this works for thousands of other gods. Why is your god any different? Why should I believe you and disregard everyone else despite the fact they make similar, groundless claim?

[gavtronics]

"Qualifying myself" seems to mean simply to believe your religion. So the argument that qualifying myself will lead me to believe is simply a redundancy.

If you believe, you will believe. Not a cogent argument IMHO.

[gavtronics]

One more thing: You also pull the sneaky Christian tactic of implying I already believe in your god, and that I am in a sort of denial. This is not true, but again, it's a tacky strategy any religion could use. It's also pretty arrogant when you think about it.

[forayouthfulreformr]

Do you know any of her friends who could help you?

You could discuss the lack of progress of this relationship in a public venue. Does that improve the actual relationship?

---

Ultimately, it is a relationship: between God and a man, a woman or a child. It is private, founded on love, truth, honesty, loyalty, and desires to improve. "I really screwed up!" can be dealt with.

Paradoxically, the Almighty reveals Himself in very small ways, to those who love Him. I Kings 19:11-13

[DrMaryMalone]

An almost perfect analogy for the heaven and hell idea - only the actual idea is even worse: Before you get to the restaurant, you only hear rumours about having to wear a blue shirt, and you have no chance to verify this ridiculous story. You also have no chance to verify that the cannibals and the barbeque exist. The moment you arrive at the entrance of the restaurant (death), it is already to late - either you have a blue shirt, or you are screwed.

Great video. I subbed :)

[thatgaybloke]

I think there is something missing from your blue shirt analogy. The shades of blue. Before going to the restaurant you will undoubtedly be told by many people which particular shade of blue you need to wear. On arriving it's pretty much down to luck that you've chosen a shade that matches when they get the Pantone chart out.

Before you get there, everyone will insist it is their shade, and theirs only, that guarantees you a seat.

[sincaid4]

I'm goin to point out the irony of a "gaybloke" talking about shades of blue. But you do have an excellent point. good on ya mate.

[thatgaybloke]

I don't have any problem with "being good with colours" :-)

[gavtronics]

Haha I like this.  In retrospect I could definitely have articulated my argument better, it was pretty much dictated off the cuff. I wonder how colorblindness could figure into the analogy...

[Forayouthfulreformer]

Assume you really want to go out with this wonderful girl you've just met. She is far better looking, and more intelligent and sweet, than any other - maybe in the whole universe. But somehow she knows of you, and unequivocally refuses to go out with you. In your mind, this girl hasn't made it clear why she won't date you. But to her, you haven't gone to the effort to understand her reasons, nor to accommodate her feelings. She is really cold toward you - you feel frostbite coming on.

[gavtronics]

I don't date women who can't accept me for me. I don't do tricks and I don't attempt to read their minds, because as a male, there's no way I can completely understand her train of thought without asking. So I really want to know what she's thinking, I'll ask.

But obviously this isn't about women, it's some metaphor for God. Interesting that the Bible says God is a male. (I always thought that strange.)

[Forayouthfulreformer]

Within yourself, you have some initial guesses as to why she won't go out with you. But you feel as this author: "Humility is not my forte, and whenever I dwell for any length of time on my own shortcomings, they gradually begin to seem mild, harmless, rather engaging little things, not at all like the staring defects in other people's characters." -Margaret Halsey Is she worth the effort to you? If so, how will you win her heart? She's not impressed with anything about you, at present.

[gavtronics]

Let's look at the advantages this girl has over your god:

(1) She exists and I know this.

(2) I can verbally (and maybe physically) contact her.

(3) She is attractive, not genocidal, not a fan a torture (unless she's into S and M)

I'm kinda kidding here, kinda not. The God is the Bible is a repulsive character to me. Your metaphor assumes that God exists and that I want to worship him, but neither assumption is true to me.

Why aren't you trying harder to qualify yourself to Zeus?

[Forayouthfulreformer]

Tolstoi once told an eager young reformer, "Young man, you sweat too much blood for the world; sweat some for yourself first.... If you want to make the world better you have to be the best you can.... You cannot bring the Kingdom of God into the world until you bring

it into your own heart first."

[Forayouthfulreformer]

A common misunderstanding is to believe your knowledge of sacred things will come about in the same way as your knowledge of chemistry or biology.

In sacred things, understanding is contingent on behavior. Behavior comes first, then comes knowledge.

To say it differently, individuals come to know truth to the degree they are true to the truth.

The problems you point out are valid, but that is not the greater issue. Far more understanding is available to you if you choose to qualify yourself.

[gavtronics]

Please elaborate on this. What does "qualifying myself" entail. In what way is understanding contingent on behavior, and what kind of behavior? Please be specific.

[Forayouthfulreformer]

Where do your interests lie, Gav? Greater understanding? Because, unfortunately, some people are content to be jeerleaders. Hope that's not you.

[gavtronics]

Interested in biology, got my bachelors in it. Interested in nature and life in general. I take it the jeerleaders comment is referring to my criticizing your religion. I'm definitely a jeerleader in that regard, which isn't exclusive with having other interests. IMO, religion isn't criticized enough. In fact, the word faith is often used to shield religion from even the most basic rational inquiry that we apply to all other claims. Acting offended and stomping your feet is another shield

[ananiasacts]

No, if you knew the nice restaurant was filled with the sort of scum that worship dictators, believe in thought crimes, and wish to have responsibilities for their mistakes transferred to Jesus then you'd eat with the cannibals.

[Breckmin]

Eternal hell (multi-faceted with premises that can not be isolated - such as invalid isolation of torture by one person to another) and eternal heaven (salvation) can not be compared to wearing shirts in order to get into a restaurant. Cannibalism is men eating other men/women..it is NOT the Owner of the universe who is Omniscient and Perfect and knows everything about you and every thought and every motive that you are not even aware of.and He is going to JUDGE you based on LOGICAL PERFECTION

[Breckmin]

IF you are NOT morally Perfect THEN you are in an absolute horror of eternal trouble which you can not even imagine and would not wish on your worst enemy and this is LOGICAL based on cosmological princples in the universe.

Christians have Christ's Perfect...Jesus' Moral Perfection in their place. Without the Moral Perfection that comes from Jesus Christ the One True Savior, Lord, King and God in their place.Christians would suffer the same as unbelievers.

The issue is moral perfection.Jesus

[gavtronics]

Eternal torture is logical...how so? Respectfully, it seems you're just preaching and throwing in words like logic to try to legitimize your ideology.

[Breckmin]

eternal logical separation from a Holy Creator and exact punishment for offenses is logical....unless you have been forgiven and have received moral perfection in your place. Hell is multi-faceted...and if you isolate on "eternal torture" you will miss the connected premises which make such a place logical to exist (to address the problem with choice and the ability to disobey a Holy God and transgress against Him).

[gavtronics]

Why would god give us the ability to disobey him if he knows that ability lets us fall into Hell? "Free will" would be a curse in that scenario. Of course, there's no evidence that free will even exists. Our choices are made in the brain, and like everything else in the universe, the brain is beholden to physics. Everything, even our choices, is driven by physical cause and effect.

[Breckmin]

"Why would god give us the ability to disobey him if he knows that ability lets us fall into Hell?"

Good question. It is necessary in order for LOVE to exist. In true love..you can't say "yes" if you can't say "no." You can't agree if you can't disagree. Love is agreeing with the Creator... Love is willfully obeying Him. Love is the greater good that makes the creation of men in His Image logical.

[gavtronics]

Do you believe animals have free will?

[Breckmin]

Animals can indeed make decisions...but their ability for knowledge is limited. Animals which are not Homo sapien are incapable of worshipping their Creator because they are not created in God's Image...but this begs the question:

"What good is free will without knowledge?" If animals don't have any purpose for themselves other than what feels good and survival...how can they

contemplate the existence of their Creator? I am presently agnostic on whether or not an animal can truly understand

[Breckmin]

the concept of "forgiveness" and payment for sin...but I will get back to you.

It is something to think and study. You may be on to something. Thank you.

[gavtronics]

Free will is not necessary for love to exist. Love is a psychological experienced triggered by the release of specific chemicals in the brain. God could (and should) have created humans to love him. He didn't, and as a result of that most of his "children" will be tortured eternally. It all reads like a nasty fairytale, like the Brothers Grimm. Hell is morally abhorrent, and reflects not a divine being but a malicious, sadistic entity that is not worthy of praise.

[Breckmin]

How can you have "love" if you don't have the ability to agree or disagree? Please be specific. You are asserting the biological feeling of chemical reaction in the brain...but this doesn't address the agreement or disagreement OR your opinion of another individual.

God IS in the process of logically saving people out of this temporary creation that is dealing with the real problem of evil (its danger to God's children whom He loves).

As long as you present God's plan for salvation in an inc

[gavtronics]

If we were wired differently, we could experience love all the time. If you take MDMA, you will experience love for a few hours. This is neuroscience/biochemistry we're talking about. The onus is on you to prove that love has anything to do with agreement/disagreement. How are they related, and why?

[Breckmin]

Love isn't just feeling..

Experiencing "love for a few hours" is an absolutely ridiculous assertion to me.

We need to trace back to very basic assumptions here.

What is Love? How are "forgiveness" and "mercy" and "Self-sacrificing action" addressed bio-chemically. Please be

specific.

[gavtronics]

Everything we experience is just a feeling, just sensory stimuli interpreted by our brains. This is something Christians can't seem to accept. Unfortunately it's scientific fact. Hypothetically, if I hit you in the head with a hammer, you would see the world differently. This is because the hammer changed your neurological activity, which is the basis of everything you know. EVERYTHING IS IN THE BRAIN.

[Breckmin]

What you are saying is based on "meaninglessness."  It means that since the sun is going to burn out anyway...everything is temporary and without purpose. This is NOT a basis of an argument for anything I would assert. I am just noting that your circular reasoning regarding "everything is natural" leads to the logical conclusion of meaninglessness after the sun "burns out."

[gavtronics]

You put every single one of those words in my mouth. My argument is that what we experience is the result of physical occurrences in the brain. This actually is not an argument. It's a medical fact. Ask your doctor.

[Breckmin]

My doctor is a creationist who believes that science fully demonstrates the need for a Creator.  He also believes in a human consciousness that is separate from the brain. He would disagree with you that all experiences are the result of physical occurences in the brain because of things as basic as "out of body" experiences.

[Breckmin]

You miss the point that it is all meaningless IF there is no Creator and no after life. When the sun burns out there will be no "history."

[gavtronics]

Nor does the brain-rooted nature of experience mean it is meaningless. If I cut off your arm, that experience would not be meaningless to you. You would cry and beg that I not do so, because you would know exactly how much that experience MEANS. Because pain, pleasure, suffering, happiness - these ALL MEAN SOMETHING. The fact they represent physical rather than "spiritual" processes does not make them meaningless.

[gavtronics]

Meaning is another product of the brain. When you die, there is no meaning. There is no you.

The difference in our positions is that mine are based on what is real, what exists, what we experience. Yours are based on theological and spiritual abstractions.

I am perfectly comfortable living in reality. Human experience is meaningful PER SE. INHERENTLY. The idea that we need some "absolute" standard to give it meaning is ludicrous, and you haven't done anything to show why it's necessary.

[gavtronics]

Also, there is no way I could explain these emotions to you biochemically in a youtube comment. Scientists are only beginning to understand the chemical pathways linked to these emotions. But the point is, they are based on chemical pathways. Change these pathways, and your emotions will change. This is the basis of modern psychiatry and biochemistry. Notice how science is making all these advances while theologians contribute nothing at all to society.

[Breckmin]

Worshipping at the alter of "naturalism" doesn't address the ridiculous inductions that go on with respect to psychiatry and locking people up in rooms and treating them like guinea pigs while "trying" different medications. Neither does it address human consciousness that sets us APART from all other species. The worship of God alone is quite different than all other species. Also, we can miss the basic necessity of explaining activity which is NOT logical or based on scientific understanding

[gavtronics]

I never said psychiatry could cure everything, but people take antidepressants and anticonvulsants, etc for a reason. If your child was bipolar, you would give them lithium. I guarantee it. Otherwise you would be a cruel and irresponsible parent. Also, the fact you think I'm "worshiping" naturalism shows your inability to see from other people's perspectives. I'm not worshiping anything. Science is not flawless and unlimited.

[Breckmin]

my point about using people as guinea pigs has to do with "spiritual" actuality and demonization and spiritual warfare. Since you probably are not aware of the existence of these unclean deceiving spirits then it will be difficult for you to "see" this point as anything other than

"ridiculous." The reality is that all people

are surrounded by a spiritual world which affects them and tempts them toward different deceptions (AND self-deceptions).Demons piggy back their complex deceptions on se

[gavtronics]

Unless you have evidence of this spiritual world, there is no reason to believe it exists.

[Breckmin]

Lots of experience with it (them). It is impossible for me to believe that it does not exist. It would be like denying the internet or your personal existence (which I am not certain of..btw).

I am certain of unclean deceiving spirits who piggyback their complex deceptions on self-deception.

[Breckmin]

"Free will" would be a curse in that scenario."

Yes. It is free will that creates the REAL problem of evil. Not in explaining it..but rather how evil is a problem for beings of choice who "can do" what is morally illogical and imperfect to do... and that is

choose to disobey God or not trust Him.

"Of course, there's no evidence that free will even exists. "

Free will doesn't really exist right now because our "will" is not free. It is tied to a sin nature which influences us to sin th

[Breckmin]

Free will is not a curse if LOVE conquers the evil you are in danger of eternally committing by saving you and teaching you and changing you and giving you the MOTIVE to always choose the right thing in the afterlife. If you are set free of the sinful condition and you have incredible love for your Creator you will always obey Him and KNOW that evil is bad....so that

you never choose it again. It is part of being transformed to be like Jesus Christ.

To no longer have a sin nature and to love

[Breckmin]

Those who have their sins forgiven will someday have "true" free will. But not just free will....what good is free will without the KNOWLEDGE to always make the right choice??? Or the "motive" (love) to always obey God? Without knowledge and motive...(which must be learned and

experienced respectively)... we could do what is morally illogical to do and that would be to disobey or not trust the Creator. This is morally illogical to do and is a violation against a Holy and Perfect Creator

[Breckmin]

but not the determinism which claims "indeterminism." I believe in sunergeism and infinite circumstances which are beyond the limitations of a consecutive and linear time-space continuum. Regardless of this...choices are REAL. They are real decisions made by beings who possess volition...that is why you are actually responsible for every

violation you commit against a Holy Creator.

[gavtronics]

I looked up "sunergeism." I got one google result in a Christian forum. I was written by you, Breckmin. Is it completely made-up? What is it?

[Breckmin]

It is based on the koine Greek word "Sunergei" which means "together acting" which has to do with God's Infinite Decree and how it is inclusive of human choice.

[gavtronics]

OK. Ask yourself though, what exactly is free will? Try to define free will with respect to physical law. Another problem I have with the notion of free will is that it's contradicted by god's supposed omniscience.  If god knew everything, he'd know what we'd do in the future. If god already knows what we're going to do, then we are not truly free to decide. It's all predestined, and people could not be culpable for their actions.

[Breckmin]

Omniscience about a decision does NOT mean there is no decision. Any more than "observation" of a decision means there is no decision.

You are only "free" to decide within parameters anyway. You are NOT free to decide to fly like a bird...or extract oxygen from water like a fish so you can swim underwater all the time like a fish. Your choices are based on "circumstances."

This is inevitable and one of the cosmological principles of the universe.

However, "being free to decide" is not voi

[gavtronics]

"Omniscience about a decision does NOT mean there is no decision"

Yes it does. If God already knows what your decision will be, then you were not "free" to make it. You were destined to make it. This is not free will.

[Breckmin]

You were destined to make it because you "chose it." Observation of a choice does NOT invalidate the choice itself.

Are you free to fly? Without a plane or balloon or some flying device? Are you free to swim under water for hours without some sort of SCUBA gear? Are you free to travel into outerspace?

Volition is logicallly limited to circumstances.

[gavtronics]

You don't get it. An omniscient god would not just "observe" all choices - it would KNOW all choices. If the result of a "choice" is already known, then it is already determined, and then it is not free will.

Also, this puts your god in a bad place, because it means he knew how many souls would go wrong and end up in hell, but he created this world anyway. It means he is accountable for all the infinite pain and misery of the damned. It means he is a sadist, a premeditated torturer.

[Breckmin]

. If the result of a "choice" is already known, then it is already determined, and then it is not free will.

The problem is that you are placing God on a linear consecutive time line rather than understanding the point of observation. You are guilty of the same thing that theologians who are Lapsarian are guilty of. Sub Lapsarianism and Infra Lapsarianism BOTH incorrectly place God on a linear consecutive time line.

Nothing is set in stone..and yet from what "will" happen...everything is bei

[Breckmin]

"because it means he knew how many souls would go wrong and end up in hell, but he created this world anyway"

Yes. Absolutely. Now I ask you..."why?"

Why did God create man in His Image and give mankind "choice" so that Love could exist at the price of evil? What is the answer given by systematic theologians like Peter Kreeft and others throughout the decades? Why did God allow billions and billions to be logically separated while only saving maybe a half a billion?This is where all que

[Breckmin]

"Free will" or "choice" or the quality of volition is necessary in order to have Love.

You can't agree with God if you don't have the ability to disagree.

Free will is NOT a curse IF you always make the correct decision. IF you always logically obey God and keep His Law perfectly because you have LEARNED to do so...and you have absolute knowledge regarding "faith" "humility" "God's best for you" "God's love for you"(motive)and you are transformed into the Image of Christ and no longer have a s

[gavtronics]

I'm not afraid of any possible afterlife, because there's no evidence of one. We are our minds. The mind comes from the brain. The brain is supported by the body. When the body dies, the brain dies, the mind dies. There is nothing left. There is nothing to fear. :)

[Breckmin]

The fear and reverence of the Creator Who will judge you perfecty is the "beginning" of wisdom. Knowledge of consquences for actions is basic cause and effect that we see all around us.

Everything is life teaches you that there are consequences for you actions.

The afterlife is no different from present reality. There IS logical judgement. There is nothing a finite created being can do to stop it. It IS coming. You may not wish it to come..but it IS coming..and there is NO ONE who can sto

[gavtronics]

I don't believe in a petty, angry god, nor do I stake my future wellbeing on such an idea. The biblical god appears largely like a tempermental child, which I guess is one of many reasons people don't believe in it. The claim that judgment is coming just isn't convincing. It's like a hippie threatening to punch me in the Aura, if you know what that means (not much.) :)

[Breckmin]

It is not a petty God, but a Holy God Who requires LOGICAL moral perfection for fellowship. Jesus was the Only One who was ever morally perfect. We are all imperfect. The biblical Creator appears tempermental to you because you do not use a logical hermeneutic from which to interpret that is consistent with systematic theology. As long as you look at it anthrocentrically you will assert "strawman" and MISS the great riches which are contained in the communication of divine revelation.

[gavtronics]

I apply to the Bible's god the same standards that I apply to mortal men. He doesn't even hold up to them. God forbids murder, yet he commits mass-murder and genocide in the Bible. He requires blood sacrifice in order to forgive. He behaves like any barbarian king circa the bronze age. "Submit to me and I will reward you. Otherwise I will torture you." You also think anthropocentrically, by definition, because you too are human. The claim otherwise is to pretend you yourself are god.

[Breckmin]

"yet he commits mass-murder"

Already you are in a philosophical dilemma because murder is "unlawful" killing...and God as the Creator and OWNER of the universe is the LAWMAKER and He Alone would determine what is Lawful.

Second, even the number of your heartbeats are known to God...by your

definition - God kills all of us and is therefore guilty of murdering everybody based on these circumstances of His control. Everyone God takes home to heaven or does not save and determines the length of

[Breckmin]

their grace in this lifetime...God somehow "murders."

"He requires blood sacrifice in order to forgive."

The blood of lambs and goats doesn't forgive anything. It is only His Own Blood...the Blood He shed when He became a Man that is required to forgive sins. It is an act of Self-Sacrificing LOVE for His children.

How can I pretend to be God if by your assertion "God doesn't exist?" If I claim not to be anthropocentrical in my thinking..

what will you accuse me of?

I feel as though y

[gavtronics]

You can still pretend to be god if he doesn't exist. You can still pretend to know absolutes when you don't. You can pretend whatever you want, independent of reality, independent of my assertions.

[Breckmin]

As far as judgement coming for ALL of us.. it is as inevitable as landing once you jump off of a cliff. The consequences are eternal. Everything in life teaches us that there are consequences for actions. There is a result for every decision we make. This is logical.

[gavtronics]

This isn't logical. You're preaching from a book.

[Breckmin]

Christianity existed for over 1600 years without a book among the common people in a common language...did I quote a bible verse, yet? Maybe I did. Perhaps it was Romans 1: 20.

[gavtronics]

If you asked WWII Germans if Hitler was a murderer, they would say no. Hitler was ultimate authority, and what he did to the Jews was viewed not as murder but as pest control. You are essentially saying "because he's god, it's not murder." Well if Hitler flooded the Earth, killing almost everyone, that would be murder. I just want you to realize your double standard, and also how eerily similar your defense of god is to fascist authoritarian logic

[gavtronics]

If Christians can't hold god to any standards, then how can they say their moral code is absolute. It would appear their moral code is not absolute but contingent on the whims of a "jealous" god.

[Breckmin]

The Holy Creator "owns" the universe He created. He alone sets the standard for what is God by His very will... If you created your own little world with your imagination.. you would own that imaginary world and set the standard for good and evil in your imaginary world also... unless Someone "owned" you.

Jealousy is not the same thing as envy. Some jealousy is based on what is "optimal" and BEST in a situation rather than what would benefit themselves.

God wanting what is best for us is bas

[Breckmin]

This analogy is fallacious because Hitler is a fellow man logically "Owned" by God and NOT the Owner and Creator of the universe Who is Omniscient and Perfect.

Hitler is a finite man who violated God's Law...God determines everyone's death through various circumstances so in this regard God somehow "murders" us all (although how? since He Alone sets the Law for the universe). Your argument is clearly non-sequitur. God is the Giver and

Taker of all life so murder is meaningless when it comes

[gavtronics]

By this logic, if you have a child, you can abuse or kill the child and that's fine, because you made and "own" the child.

Being the creator or owner of a thing does not exonerate someone from responsibility for that thing. Quite the opposite. If the Christian god did indeed create this universe, then he is accountable for anything and everything that happens within it.

[Breckmin]

Will you be accountable for the decisions and the actions of your teenagers who make real choices? The problem with your analogy is that it 1. doesn't address the fact that God "owns me" so He would also "own the child." I do NOT own the child...God logically owns all children.

and 2. Cicumstances are not abuse..they are causes and effects and they all contribute logically to your circumstances. Circumstances do NOT excuse end results, however...they just explain the logical reasons for end

[Breckmin]

A White rob would have been better than a blue shirt....but the white rob is paid for

by your Father or your Husband or your King's own blood to show his love for you.

The difference is that salvation is about

"spiritual adoption" of children who are

part of a world system that is already

perishing...

If you had people given "white robs" because they believed that their King or

Father died in their place..then this would

be closer but still FAR FAR away.

Relationships are about Love

[Breckmin]

multi-tasking and I spell robe three times without an "e." I still haven't learned how

to edit these....?

[gavtronics]

Thanks for your response. The core argument of my view is that our alleged salvation is dictated by our religious views, but our religious views are dictated by our upbringing - where and when were were born. Since we have no control over where and when we were born, our circumstances of birth don't reflect our worth as people, but in the eyes of religion, they DO.

Basically, I have a problem with faith in a god being more important than your behavior as a human being. Would you disagree?

[Breckmin]

Yes. I would disagree. What I would disagree with is that "faith in God" is being diametrically opposed to "your behavior as a human being." In fact, FAITH or trusting in God is actually part of your behavior....but the good behavior should come as a RESULT not as a means to faith.

Your first appeal to circumstances of where people are born is an appeal to "fairness." This is illogical to me because "fairness" does not exist in the universe. Everyone is born in different circumstances.

[gavtronics]

"but the good behavior should come as a RESULT not as a means to faith."

No, the good behavior should come from good will.  It shouldn't come from a religious belief. If it did, then by definition no good people existed before your god revealed himself. That's self-evidently absurd.

I made a moral appeal. I think fairness is a good thing. I didn't say life was fair, though. Reread please.

[Breckmin]

We have two things going on here...one is involving "fairness" and the other is regarding "good" or anything "moral" being able to exist apart from an absolute standard.

[gavtronics]

there is no absolute standard.  we as humans cannot be 100% sure of anything, so we need to deal with practical, working knowledge.

[Breckmin]

then you can have NO moral justification.

Everything will be exposed as circular reasoning in pure logic argumentation.

you will be stuck with conventions and might makes right. conventions is an

argumentum ad populum or consensus gentium fallacy.

[gavtronics]

Your beliefs are based on the Bible, a book. Books are written by humans. There's no proof to Bible is any different, so your beliefs are as people-based as mine. It must be comforting thinking you know the truth, but you don't, and neither do I. You just have faith that an ancient book is entirely and literally true, and that it hasn't been corrupted over time, and that you are interpreting it correctly. That's a lot of faith, more faith than I have.

[Breckmin]

first, the "bible" is not just one book..it is a collection of writings written over a thousand year timespan and written by

dozens of authors. You could say it is a collection of writings...but they all testify to the same thing regardin Messiah.

Regardless of the "bible" - you can't use

what you don't understand about the writings of apostles and prophets of God

who represent the truth to the nation of Israel as a valid justification to reject scientific evidence...OR to reject basic log

[gavtronics]

Getting back to the point, how do you know that collection of writings came from God?

[Breckmin]

There are several answers to this...one of them has to do Infinite Degree or sunergeism which I can get into later. The collection of writings were written by MEN. Men of God who knew the logic of God. Everytime a Christian, for instance, is convicted by God's Holy Spirit...they are convicted that there is great truth in scripture. My spirit bears witness to the

truth that I see written in scripture. But this is based on my personal relationship with the Creator...and is not the sole basis

[Breckmin]

for my argument. We would have to go into specific prophecies that were written and then fulfilled. We would also have to look at what specific scriptures say about

the Nature of a Holy God (Creator) and how this is consistent with Jesus Christ.

We would also have to look at what Jesus said about the writings coming from God... Since I believe Jesus Christ was uniquely the Only time God became a Man, and I believe He rose again from the dead (as a factual historical event), I agree with Him

[gavtronics]

I guess I believe less in morality and more in ethics: the golden rule, that sort of thing. A society with compassionate, cooperative individuals will thrive compared to a society of selfish solipsists. It's funny, ethics is actually a product of evolution. We have the capacity to cooperate with other people because our survival, as a species, has necessitated cooperation within our tribes. Yes there is war amongst the tribes, but without a solid family unit, humans would not have survived.

[Breckmin]

"Yes there is war amongst the tribes, "

Without an objective standard of morality to appeal to...who is to say that "war is somehow "wrong?"

[gavtronics]

For the same reason that cutting your arm off is wrong. You don't need an absolute rule not to cut your arm off - all you need to know is that it arm-cutting is damaging. Likewise, war is damaging and can often be avoided. When you do something that is damaging when you could have avoided it, you did something wrong. No absolutes needed.

[Breckmin]

What about those who don't believe it is wrong to cut off an arm???? Why is your

morality any better than theirs? What about

people who THRIVE on damaging things?

How is what they believe somehow "wrong?"

[gavtronics]

Maybe you have gangrene and the best solution is amputation. Cutting off the arm would be right. My criterion for what's wrong is something that causes harm that could be avoided. The axiom behind that is harm is bad. You could say "Harm is bad" is an absolute.

[Breckmin]

What is somehow "wrong" with hurting someone???? If this is all mathematically ZERO on a scale of infinity because there is no eternity or afterlife and temporary existence will infinitely approach zero after we are "gone" THEN NOTHING is wrong.

There are no consequences...everything

is just meaningless opinion which will infinitely (eternally) approach ZERO.

Why is "harm" bad? Why is "anything" bad? What makes it bad if it will all disappear anyway? What about those who believe harm is g

[gavtronics]

In order to have a moral code, you need to start with some precepts. Everyone agrees harm is bad. Unnecessarily harming someone or something is immoral. Morality is pragmatic, because it applies to LIFE. It is not absolute and does not have to be. You assume there is an infinite afterlife, and that is an article of faith. My moral code does not rely on faith; it relies on what works in real life, because that's what morality/ethics deal with: real life.

[gavtronics]

I would argue that a value system based on abstract absolutes is shakier than one that is based on real-world concerns. For instance, if hell and heaven don't exist, then your value system is moot. And I haven't seen you try to provide evidence that any part of the Bible is true, so I don't know how you can assume it is.

[Breckmin]

Christians often make the statement: "There is nothing fair about grace." The reason for this is because "being forgiven" is not about fairness but is about mercy. What many people do not realize is that once you place objects in random motion they will all have different experiences....and different circumstances. Now add "choice" to this and you will see trillions upon trillions of causes and effects involving "choices" which affect other people. This makes "fairness" impossible. Everyone is

[Breckmin]

Everyone is born at different points in time as well as under different circumstances. That is why true cosmic fairness does not exist....and therefore it is not a valid appeal as a basis for an argument. Often what we as humans think of can be demonstrated as "sharing" rather than fairness. Giving

equal treatment is impossible because

of different circumstances....but giving equal portions and calling it "fair" is actually "sharing" and not true fairness.

Justice is inclusive of mercy and

[gavtronics]

You seem to have missed my argument, since I never used fairness as a basis. All I said is that your god is unfair to judge people based on what they believe religiously. it's just a stupid idea that doesn't reflect a benevolent or just god. my argument against your god would be that he is claimed to be benevolent and just, but his criteria for judgment show he is neither of these. this self-contradiction reflects a human error. religion as a whole is a human error, IMHO.

[Breckmin]

You are asserting that "our religious views are dictated by our upbringing." My argument is that THIS does not determine objective truth or facts about the Creator...but it IS unfair to those who are clearly born under the circumstances of an incorrect religion which will result in their anathema. It is NOT fair. No one said it could be fair or that it was ever fair.

Everyone who is saved out of this perishing world is saved completely by the GRACE of the Creator.Until we address the reasons

[Breckmin]

The problem with this argument is that the latter part is a circumstantial fallacy (regarding human error) and the beginning of your argument fails to address WHY God judges people based on what they believe religiously. If TRUSTING the Creator is important in any way, THEN faith itself is an important element in your RELATIONSHIP to the Holy Creator. Saying "it's just a stupid idea" and failing to deal with the whole purpose that God has for a "temporary creation" to deal with the REAL proble

[gavtronics]

This post confuses me.

[Breckmin]

That this temporary creation is God's way of dealing with the real problem of evil?

What specifically confused you?

[anberlin32]

You had me on good looks alone. The intellectualism is a bonus.

[TerryStoneNL]

Hmm wearing a red shirt now, looks like i won't be getting in.

I really dig the analogy. :)

[NickalNack]

Hahahahaha... I'm wearing a blue t-shirt right now. It has on it the word "Thespian" in silver glitter font as well, so maybe I'll get the non-smoking room. lol

On a serious note though, for the past few months I've been growing more and more skeptical of everything around me. This video offers me more to think about. I can't comply to your request for a challenge, simply because I know no way of answering it myself. Perhaps someday I will.

[gavtronics]

Your candor is commendable.

[Nerdylation]

well, no one has proved that either restaurant exists. It's like driving around a neighborhood to find that the directions you got leads to a parking garage.

also, any barbecue is better than a restaurant with a maître d'.

[noremaku]

I don't like that, according to most Christians, if you were born in, say, an island in the middle of the pacific, and you had no contact with the Judeo-Christian world, that you would be doomed because you didn't accept Jesus as your savior. Nevermind that

1. You had no choice and no opportunity to "save yourself." Too bad, you lost the genetic lottery!

2. That the name "Jesus" is pronounced different in every language; the all-powerful God is restricted to a series of human-produced sounds!

[gavtronics]

The fact of your first point has always bothered me. I simply could never get past that. The funny thing is, it doesn't seem to concern Christians one bit.

Here's another thing: Would Heaven be Heaven if you knew billions of people. including friends and family, were being tortured for eternity beneath you?

Now, a part of the Bible says God will simply wipe the tears away and the damned will be forgotten. So I guess, as for as genocidal maniacs go, God's pretty good at covering his tracks.

[gavtronics]

You're second point is awesome to. Never thought about that.

By extension, the human "experience" of God must be different too, since every mind that perceives God is different, and perceives him differently.

On even the briefest examinations, the "absolute truth" claimed by the Bible starts to crumble.

I'm convinced that many Christians simply refuse to think outside certain, arbitrarily defined bounds. They accept a set of beliefs yet refuse to consider the implications.

[LightTruthLove]

Well that's not according to Christianity.