LOL @ documentation going back 12,000 years, when ancient Greeks started writing and documenting things in its most basic form during the 9th century B.C! Thats just under 3,000 years at the very most, and none of the early documentation or even early pottery paintings depict any form of pankration, it came into the Olympics in the mid-7th century B.C. So many people who claim to be experts on pankration have their facts seriously messed up because they are not scholars.
he's really wrong on many points...chinese culture goes back approximately 6000 and they have 5500 of it recorded, albeit he is right about 1000 of it being "officially" documented due to not even the chinese have individuals that can do or know how to properly translate the older works. now the Indus have claimed 7000 years but they do have 4000 years actual documentation. but 20000..? he's talking Uru but the inhabitants surrounding the Uru Empire never really associated with the Uru...
Pankration originates from the Greek words pan / παν (all,everything) and kratos / κράτος (strength,power) meaning that the warrior (hopletes/οπλίτης) was ready to use all his abilities and the maximum of his strength to defend himself from the opponent.
I read an article by Jim Arvantis [i think that is his last name] and he said Pankration was the worlds first "martial art." and that is what the Spartans were trained in. In the Bible, it mentions wrestling.
The instructors words from 6:36-6:44, give me serious doubts. Seriously? Documentation back to 20,000 years? That was roughly the period following the Ice Age. Also, writing was not invented until approx 5000 BC. Also, when he says Chinese legend going back to only 1000 years is plain wrong. It is a civilization that is over 2000 years old! I'm sure he is a good martial arts teacher, but I think a little fact checking might be in order here.
Documentation does not necessarily mean literature. Ancient artifacts such as cave drawings or sculpture that obviously indicates wrestling or boxing matches suggests the existence of the practice.
Second, just because Chinese civilization existed a certain amount of years it is not a necessarily true that a Chinese legend existed just as long. There are many Chinese legends, I doubt that all these folk stories came about during the birth the civilization itself.
@yussefumaketse the study of pankration is based on depictions on urns and other graphic depictions. Maybe not that old, since the greek culture is not that old (say you might have them since 5000 BC as a pre-statal bunch of cultures which would mean 7000 years ago). Just wanted to point out that it was not carried on by written word, but graphic depictions of moves, and modern pankration is the closest aproximation to the style based on a collection of drawings
@yussefumaketse PS he said documentation was back 12000 years (that means 10000 BC let's pretend it's plausible) and that LEGEND might root even further back in time...but the fact is that it is likely that pankration is the oldest form of martial art, and that it was taken by traders to the far east.
@yussefumaketse i am greek and can tell you it was only recently found that we have been around for just under 4000years not 20,000 i agree he does need to check facts.
He's a great guy. Aris met up with me and Brad Morris is Canada when we were up there for UFC 83. He offered up his gym to Brad and I to use while we were up there.
The art of combat started in Mesopotama close to 10,000 years ago. There is proof that the wheel, spears, arrows, fire, alphabet, shields and hand to hand was first documented here.
The way the Spartans were depicted in the history books one would assume them to be a barbaric, gruesome, and hateful, yet the Spartan art work from the "300" era always depicts faces with rather intense smiles. Something doesn't add up if they were solely consumed by war, yet so joyous in their art. Our limited sources of info are known to exaggerate and even fabricate. They didn't leave their own records. We rely on their recently beaten enemies for most of the story.
what is often agreed upon though was the extremely rigorous professional status of their hoplites, when most hoplites were militia, part time watrriors who trained not infrequently, and combined with a bronze helm, brestplate greaves, thick shield and long spear in formation. theres a reason phalanxes were vulnerable only from the sides or against the ppikes.
@elgostine and if spartans were as well drilled even as half good astey say, that means they could about face, quickly raising spears, the men on the facing rankquickly bringing to bear,then the restfollow to support
similar to the romans or the redcoats of wellingtons time.
Nice, but how does that translate into the silly 300 style choreograghy, or the silly Spike Channel "reconstructions" of supposed outcomes of battles between "historic" warriors? Or the contemporary "Greek" MAs which clearly borrow HEAVILY from ASIAN MAs. Here's what we know: there is no extant Greek MA to speak of, so all this speculation is to no avail-it's a moot point. Here's something else: Hung Gar is Chinese, and no 300/Alexander Western fantasy will change that.
@shango1963 huh??? 300 was basd off agraphic novel frst off. and was never mant to be truely historical.
spikev from wht i hear was a historical failure, and really just played to sterotypes and popular image. the spartan ironically from what i hear (havent seen the eisodes) wernt testedTOO badly because the weapons were simple, and correct
the pankration was recorded durng the ncient olympics as beiing like ow the instructor tells it
@shango1963 and who and when did i say hung gar had ANYTHING to do with greek fighting. i didnt even mention the chinese at allthis has NOTHING to do with china and japan, this is what did/ didnt happen in greece
What you mention about the Spartans is only revealed to us through the writing of Athenians, their enemies. This is like Rush Limblaugh writing a history of the Clinton Admin. The throwing babies off the cliff because they were too small has been recently proven a myth by archaeologists. The Helots were hardly slaves and didn't do all the work. Male citizens were warriors by trade, but those who didn't make it into the "Army" became tradesmen and lived outside the main cities.
That isn't what I read from archeological books on ancient Spartan civilization. They claimed to indeed find the sacred cliff that Spartans were ordered to leave their unhealthy children to die. They found baby skeletons everywhere. And they weren't tossed off the cliff but placed there in a basket by their mothers and left to die. And the slaves in Sparta were slaves from what I've read. They might not have been in chains but they were still an underclass who served the Spartans.
All you write about is text book history based almost entirely on the writings of Herodotus. Archaeologists excavated the area around the "cliff" just over a year ago and only found adult remains. Probably executed captives.
I read that in order to be a full citizen Spartans had to kill one of those slaves, Helots. Fear of the enslaved helots was what made them live in a state of constant readiness for war. Makes me think of South africa under apartheid.
The funniest thing is that now, every white guys who loves martial arts is a Spartan (they got Irish Athenians now-lol-Lepracans are midget Spartans-every white cat's Greek!
Your history for you is all it is. Nubia didn't teach Africa how to fight, and Ta-Seti and Ta-Nahasi (Nubia) existed long before Dorian Greeks founded that City-State, unless you believe recent studies to be fairy tales. And, yes, without a extant current lineage, reconstructing anything that is supposed to be an exact representation of past subject matter is larger in the eye of the "reconstructionist."
Pankration was probably the most effective, brutal, deadly and macho martial art of all time. It was developed purely to kill on the battlefield and even the ancient olympic sport version makes constant references to eye gouging, finger breaking, fatal suffocations from chokes, etc. Pankration is the oldest martial art, it's the original martial art, it's the toughtest martial art and it's the closest ANY matial art has ever gotten to a real free for all fight for survival. But it died long ago.
The reason why it was so effective and brutal is because the Spartans had almost zero regard for human life. They were borderline psychotic in their combat training and people died all the time. No other warrior class in human hostory can ever hold a candle to the Spartans or their Pankration hand to hand fighting technique. They make the samurai look like pussies.
The Spartans were simply the most hardcore warrior clas ever in human history. I base that on my own love of history. Never have I ever come across another warrior class that comes even close to the Spartans. First of all they practiced an ancient form of eugenics. Every single Spartan infant was closely examined by a council of elders who looked for any sign of physical weakness. If your baby had any sort of handicap or if it was just tiny it was ordered to be killed.
The mother was forced to place her infant in a basket and they she had to take the infant to a sacred cliff where it was abandoned to be killed by the elements. The mother had no say in whether she could save her child or not. If she didn't abandon it she herself would have been killed. This ensured that every single Spartan citizen was physically fit and healthy. Hitler was said to be a great admirer of this Spartan practice and it's believed that it influenced his own evil eugenic programs.
If the Spartan child survived his first life or death test he was forced to join a military school at around the age of 7 and would be seperated from his parents for the rest of his life. His new "parent" became his older adult Spartan warrior trainer who took the child under his wing and taught him how to be a warrior. This Spartan practice was said to influence George Lucas's Jedi and Padawn learner relationship in the Star Wars films.
But the Spartans were bizarre as well. The relationship wasn't completely innocent. Basically the older Spartan warrior would start a romantic relationship with the child. So the Spartans were ancient homosexual pedophiles as well. And this was mandatory in Spartan society. They obviously didn't have the sexual taboos that we have today. Anyway, from the age of around 7 the Spartan boy was taught primarily unarmed combat such as Pankration grappling, wrestling and striking.
He was also taught how to use wooden weapons to simulate real ones when he got a bit older. During this time they were also roughed up constantly by their adult Spartan warrior teachers. They were forced to play ancient forms of king of the mountain where'd they basically dog pile on top of each other and beat the crap out of each other in order to gain supremacy. And another trial they had to go through were mass whippings where they were tied to stone pillars and whipped.
And it was done in front of their cheering parnets if you can believe it. Their Spartan parents would be watching from rows of seats around the pillars and would be cheering for them not to give up. It was an endurance test to see how much pain these small Spartan children in training could take before giving up. They were also purposely poorly fed and looked after in order to encourage them to scrounge for food as training for if they ever got trapped behind enemy lines and needed to survive.
Throughout their entire training process these Spartan children were often literally beaten to death. This continued the eugenics-like selection process which weeded out the weak from Spartan society. Then when they got a couple years older they advanced to more complicated weapons and fight training where the likelyhood of being killed increased. Then in their teens they advanced to using full on real weapons and practiced formation tactics and cohesion to master battlefield movements.
And again, the chances of being killed during training increased even more. During all this time they were kept away fromnot only their parents but all females in general. The females and males in Spartan society were strictly segregated. But even the females were trained hard as well. They were all taught to wrestle, archery, and use other weapons. And as a testament to how physically fit they were non-Spartan historical records comment on the perfection of the athletic Spartan female body.
They were also all lesbians just like all the boys were gay. The final test for a Spartan male to finish his military school training required him to be banished from the Spartan society and to live on his own off the land and by stealing from the slave population. And if he was caught he was severely beaten by his Spartan warrior military school trainers. Again this was done to ensure that they could survive on their own if they ever got trapped behind enemy lines.
The last most brutal requirment of this final test was the task of ambushing and strangeling a slave to death in order to instill the Spartan boy with the willingness and comfort to kill. If he finished all this he graduated and became a Spartan warrior at around the age of 18. But even then his training was still nowhere near complete. For the rest of his adult life he was required to dedicate every single day of his life to continuing his warrior training.
His next test was getting accepted into a kind of Sparan training/drinking club. They tested you to see how fit and tough you were. If you made it you got to relax with them during breaks in the day between their training sessions. And do you want to know what their favorite drink was? It was a combination of vinegar and cows blood. They chugged that down every day like it was beer. And years later if he proved himself as a great Spartan warrior on the battlefield he was allowed to get married.
Male female relationships were very odd in Spartan society. Marriages were relatively rare and sex between most males and females was purely for the purpose of creating more Spartan wariors. Their mating rituals were extremely elaborite and strange. They could last days and usually it was the first time the male or female had ever interacted with the opposite gender before. The female also had her head shaven and was forced to wear male Spartan clothes. Like I said they were bizarre.
Another strange aspect of Spartan society was how anti-materialistic they were. They shunned elaborate posessions or signs of wealth. They generally only had a rug, a simple bed and maybe a pot. Anything else was frowned upon. Hence the modern phrase "spartan interior". So the Spartans were a strange but fascinating mix of communism, Nazism, gay pride and ultra-militancy. Another testament to their insanely militant civilization was their choice of Gods.
Their God for love was the same God for war. So they were basically taught to love war. And you see evidence for that everywhere. They loved raiding their Greek neighbors just for kicks. It was like going to the bar on Friday night for them. They were also taught to sacrifice themselves at the command of one of their officers. I forget what they called it but it basically translated into "go seek a beautiful death" and then they'd immediately charge off into the enemy all by themselves.
They'd try to kill as many as the enemy as possible before they themselves were killed. And to touch upon some more of the stranger aspects of Spartan society, they'd prepare before every battle by stripping naked and then oiling themselves up with fragent scented oils and combing each others hair right in the view of their enemies. This was recorded by their enemies in perplexed astonishment. They prepared to do battle like they were going to a party. They loved it.
Another intesting testmanet to their extreme militantancy was a Spartan shield found by archeologists. On it a mother scribed on her sons shield "come back to me with this shield or on it". That basically meant "If you don't return home carrying your shield in victory then I'd rather have your body carried back on it dead". Spartan mothers obviously believed in tough love... Also other ancient historians constantly commented on the insane militancy of the Spartans.
They said that the Spartans had no protective city walls like every other city because they didn't need them. Their citizens themselves were all the defense they needed since every single Spartan was a highly trained and motivated warrior. And the ultimate testament to the unmatched ferocity of the Spartans are their actual accomplishments. People can talk up anyone they want listing off the things that made them amazing. But the Spartans proved it without a doubt at Thermopylae.
Only 300 Spartan warriors held off the entire invading persian army of 300,000+ soldiers for 3 days before they were betrayed by a local farmer and outflanked through a hidden mountain pass and surrounded. But before they died they kill possibly 100,000+ persian soldiers. 300 men! - Spartan men did that. That isn't make believe. That isn't hollywood. They really did that. Proof that no one will ever come close to the sheer madness that was ancient Sparta.
And keep in mind that there was no other profession in Spartan society besides being a warrior. There were no merchants, craftsmen, etc. That was all taken care of by slaves. There were onlya few politicians and most of the royal family became royal by proving themselves the best warriors. They also lead their men in battle from the front. So they were warrior kings just the famous Leonidas proved. Yes, he was a real person. They'd obliterate the samurai with ease. No one comes close to Sparta.
I appreciate your commentary, but let's examine some things. First, there is no extant Spartan tradition to back any of these claims up. Second, being a psycopathic bisexual adds nothing to the end result of a clash between two warriors, and little Massai boys are tasked with taking down a LION as part of their traditional rites of passage into the Massai's warrior class, among other horrors. They do this calmly, not allowed to show emotion, not like a wild eyed lunatic.
Yes, there is. All the information I just wrote I got from history books about ancient Spartan civilization. Their daily lives and beliefs were written about quite extensively by historians from that time period. And no their bizarre culture and practices don't make them better warriors perse but it does help illustrate how extreme in general they were. And I don't give a shit about the masai. Even cave people made their kids hunt bears. Who cares? I'm not impressed witht that at all.
The Spartans built an entire civilization that revolved around one thing and one thing alone - creating the perfect warrior again and again until every single citizen of Sparta was more highly trained than even the most elite soldiers of other empires. No other civilization in human history can come anywhere close to touching their level of militancy.
What history books? Which ones detail the hand to hand combat techniques featured herein? Which ones detail the Greek teachers who brought the rudiments of Kalaripayyattu to India and Nei Shu to China. These Greek Dorian-white MAs fathers are curiously never mentioned by their Asian "descendants..."
No Spartan force ever conquered Ta-Nahasi (Nubia-from whence much of the world's gold derived at the time) and Alexander conquered a Kemet (Egypt) weekened and long past her African glory.
The problem with most Westerners is that they arrogantly believe that a thing which is not a footnote in some text does not exist. I have access to African traditions which most people do not, traditions of which a Navy SEAL would not wish to endure. I'll be satisfied if you show me somewhere where Spartans were tasked to defeat a LION. Otherwise, I don't care how "crazy" you claim them to be, it's just talk.
thats not arrogance, thats ignorance.. if you dont have any records of it, your not going to consider it as an option, so most eople wold assume if there was something there wed have written about it,
on behalf of the explorers there would have beensome bias in conveniently leaving that out. but for those reading the texts, and nothing is mentioned about african rituals.
In Africa, even today, there are Lion, Leopard and Crocodile societies, to name but a few, whose rituals are not accessible by the uninitiated. Killing in such a way that the death appeared as done by the animals upon which these societies were derived are but some of the methods.
I know there is a Dr./Patient confidentiality clause regarding disclosure of such info., but could you please provide a case study of the Spartans you have treated? And, again, when the Spartans beat the Samurai, was that on Pay-Per-View...?
@TaskForceSixTwoSix yes but dont forget about the Maori ...they where aswell verry brutal may not that effectiv in warfar but in warrior mind not less dangerous
@TaskForceSixTwoSix its not that they had no regard for human life but they had no regard for weakness. from the time they were lil they trained to become strang and for generations they worked on it even lookin how he babies were to make the best warrior
@TaskForceSixTwoSix a ninja would kill them howev3er. And don't say that one show the spartan won. Actually that would be a good fight, ninja vs spartan, real ninja. Pankration survived, ninjutsu nowadays is crap, I don't mean it's watered down, it was lost and people claim to teach it which is total crap, the last ninja lived like 70 years ago. Spartans had the phalanx but ninjas are meant for esponoiage and can find weaknesses along with going into the houses and stabbing through the...
Ninjas were just samurai who developed a slightly different form of martial arts to fit the intelligence gathering role that they filled. They were nothing like how they're protrayed in popular culture. They weren't dark assassins who ran around in black pajamas killing people without ever making a sound. They were basically just spies who trained in combat techniques to defend themselves incase they we were ever caught. They also wore full suits of armor just like the samurai did.
And I disagree with you that ninjitsu is totally dead. Masaaki Hatsumi seems to have the credentials to verify his claims of being taught ninjitsu in its entirety. Although he could very well be lying since he said that authentic ninjitsu will die with him because such a violent martial art has no place in the modern world. Sounds like bullcrap to me. And I don't think ninjitsu is all that effective anyway.
Pankration was simply much more raw and brutal. And its practicioners were just rough, borderline psychotic, people. Kids were regularly beaten to death when they trained in Pankration. And the entire militaristic and heartless mindset of Spartan civilization was just beyond anything modern people can comprehend. And of course Pankration became the #1 sport in ancient Greece as well. Constant warfare and life or death competition quickly weeds out ineffective techniques.
Kind of like like how modern MMA has utterly exposed the glaring and hilarious ineffectiveness of most modern eastern martial art techniques - you won't see 1 inch punches, karate chops, elaborate spinning kicks, death touches, tiger claw and drunker master strikes - that same type of no nonsense process happened daily in ancient Greece. Pankration is the real deal and still, amazingly, holds up today and is very similar to the techniques and minset of modern MMA.
@TaskForceSixTwoSix One inch death punchs were actually very strong, it's just that only bruce lee could do it xP
Karate is a punching martial art but don't underestimate a chop, if you can land one on the neck you can kill the person. A spinning kick done by a strong artist which is kinda rare in america can easily surprise someone and can be done quickly. Also it adds more power and isn't pure show. Tiger claw is effective but trash artists try it, and drunken style is effective.
@LightxKira5643 No. Lots of people can. It's really not that difficult. And he didn't invent it. Those kinds of techniques were part of kung fu for centuries. The reason why skilled kickers aren't popular in MMA is because they all got their asses handed to them very early on in the history of MMA competitions. All the kick boxers, TKD, karate, etc, types just got completely annihilated. A Westernized and highly modified version of Muay Thai has served as the foundation for modern MMA striking.
@TaskForceSixTwoSix Karate is a punching martial art btw, you obviously don't know shit about martial arts do you? Also muay thai hasn't changed for the better. It started as a war art muay boran, then moved on to muay thai for ring fights that are more violent than mma, then I guess they took off some stuff and called it mma.
@LightxKira5643 Actually karate is punching and kicking. The problem with karate is it teaches too many useless stances,punches and kicks. Muay Thai is way better actually with time,and more effective. You obviously don't know what MMA is. You can't take stuff away from kickboxing and call it MMA,because MMA stands for Mixed Martials Arts which includes everything of muay thai,boxing and grappling with chokes,arm bars etc.
@LightxKira5643 ha ha ha ha, are you freaking serious!!!!!!!!!!!! if you believe that you're crazy. Capoeira is more of a dance than a martial arts although it does include both. Capoeira is more of a show then anything.
And yes I know the history of Capoeira came from the black slaves who tried to hide their art from their masters, but the change completely ruined it making it useless. A person in Muay Thai,Boxing,Tae Kwon Do,Pankration and Judo or Aikido would destroy a Capoeirist.
@TaskForceSixTwoSix if you fought a capeoira artist, you would know how hard it is to fight a foreign fighter. I don't mean asian or anything, I mean that their style is really random and awkward. Well drunken style they have complete control of themselves by using their core and then they wait for the target to attack and quickly attack them as if they were completely ready for the attack, so it's kinda confusing to fight and also they can move around flexibly.
@LightxKira5643 ha ha ha ha, are you freaking serious!!!!!!!!!!!! if you believe that you're crazy. Capoeira is more of a dance than a martial arts although it does include both. Capoeira is more of a show then anything.
And yes I know the history of Capoeira came from the black slaves who tried to hide their art from their masters, but the change completely ruined it making it useless. A person in Muay Thai,Boxing,Tae Kwon Do,Pankration and Judo or Aikido would destroy a Capoeirist.
@asoka2000 Yet again a cocky mma fighter. It's the artist. i mean a good capoerist is really good but crappy ones are horrible, to a lower level than most. It's a martial art that if your good your good, if your bad, your horrible.
@LightxKira5643 ha ha ha ha, are you freaking serious!!!!!!!!!!!! if you believe that you're crazy. Capoeira is more of a dance than a martial arts although it does include both. Capoeira is more of a show then anything.
And yes I know the history of Capoeira came from the black slaves who tried to hide their art from their masters, but the change completely ruined it making it useless. A person in Muay Thai,Boxing,Tae Kwon Do,Pankration and Judo or Aikido would destroy a Capoeirist.
@TaskForceSixTwoSix Ninjutsu children were trained daily with just as hard conditions except the fact that they had a different result in mind. And if you don't recall this, japan was in just as much shi* back then as pankration. Sanada apparently had 10 ninja in his employ called the sanada 10 brave and also a fact is hanzo hattori saved the emperor or maybe shoguns life by showing him a secret route through familiar mountains.
@TaskForceSixTwoSix Sure those. But there were also other ninjas. But you are so wrong btw. Ninjas were actually created to fill the gap, samurai couldn't do any of the stuff they could because their honor which was more important than their life stopped them from assasinating and giving the enemy falty information so ninjas were created out of neccessity. Now if you studied, you'd find out that ninjas were in the mountains in villages.
@TaskForceSixTwoSix Kouga and Iga were the biggest of these "villages" of ninja. And their style was ninjutsu. ninjas were eventually ordered to be executed because how much fear the leader of japan had for them. He knew very well that they could kill him and was terrified of them. I mean only the most skilled people can avoid death by them. Like they would go under the buildings and then stick a long blade through the ground in and attempt to strike their prey. ninjutsu was a good art.
@TaskForceSixTwoSix In ww2, a similiar case like that happened. His name was fujita seito, but unlike the guy you mention, he was a highly revered martial artist and even fought for japan in Ww2. So he proved his worth with more than lineage. He said that no people had the quality needed to be a good ninja and so died with kouga ryu ninjutsu. But the truth of the matter is that ninjutsu is dead to the public, that they work for the government mainly.
@TaskForceSixTwoSix After exile, the majority fused into the japanese government system and did their dirty work and such. And besides that group, the rest either died or trained in secret and only taught their family. No truely trained ninjutsu martial artist would go into the public and start training people, that would go against their teachings. Though you don't have to fear them now since japan is at peace at this moment.
@TaskForceSixTwoSix ground, a common move that only people like sanada and stuff could avoid. Samurai weren't all gods in the least bit but there were people like musashi who could put a spartan to shame, musashi, kojiro, sanada, and okita soji are probally the best swordsman ever to come into asia and will stand uncontested.
@TaskForceSixTwoSix In terms of martial arts "style", both are very effective and very flexible, ninjutsu trained people to use all weapons, from a pitchfork to a nodachi (generally a 2hander)
Spartans were epic though and pankration is very effective. I personally see it as one of the strongest martial arts next to changquan and muay boran.
This is silly, as most martial arts contain these (the African derived art of Danmye/Ladja did just that during the Ladja De Morte battles in Martinique); are you referencing the MA "All Powers" or the competition venue at which it was displayed. You must little to nothing about martial arts traditions world wide if you "think" otherwise.
Huh? The Spartans practiced an especially deadly version of Pankration. It was purely designed to take your enemy to the ground and then break their neck, suffocate them to death or break their limbs so you could take their weapon from them and keep on killing the enemy with it. Other Greeks developed a sport version (still deadly) of Pankration for the ancient olympic games (it was the most popular event). The Spartans rejected taking part in it because it wasn't brutal enough.
@TaskForceSixTwoSix I agree, i think that the pankration training that the guy is teaching probably isn't how the spartans actually fought like. I think that this is a modern version that was influenced by other martial arts such as jin jutsu.
true, of course but the training mimics the style and the martial art (the philosophy of the sport). The Greeks boxed, ano wrestled (similar to Greco, since it was standing) and kato wrestled (grappling), and pankratoned (similar to today's MMA)
@TaskForceSixTwoSix not the first...kallari payattu is the oldest documented martial art. Its an indian martial art that out dates pankration by at least 1000 years. kallari payattu is also father to kung fu, and muay thai (possibly the most brutal, practical, and effective stand up fighting form to date).
@clearcombat Its Muay Buran...and U will never know if its more efective or not u probabily didnt practice any of them...The fighter always mathers....Not the art....U will search and search and continue searchign till U find a martiala rts for ur body tipe...beliefs and etc...Hoope u get meh chers
@clearcombat well I did a Typo over there...and I tink im more educated...about martial arts more then some wanna be....dun bother to wrrite back I wont reply,I hate internet wanna bes....and about my speeling eng more then sure aint the languge Im speaking evryday...u get meh here dont u?well anyway have fun wannabe-kun
@TaskForceSixTwoSix I agree , except with the dieing part as it has come back and is just as effective in a real situation. I study pankration and have been doing so for 7 yrs. nothing comes closer to a real situation, after all it is considered a MMA (Mixed Martial Arts), I have done other styles like karate and nothing compares to MMA.
Agreed, except that some of the folks may be doing it for some supposed since of cultural pride (albeit for something that is long since did a san extant tradition).
If you don't believe that we're smart enough to revive an ancient art (where the study of the human body wasn't what it is now, where martial arts pressure testing has been done with science etc) then I'm afraid you're not very confident in our ability. Besides that, it would mean that you don't believe in documented historical text and therefore everything before yourself "died out" or "isn't REAL". Think about it.
I believe what my "lying eyes" tell me, and I am definately not taking the word of some "European" researcher on "world historical events." Extant traditions are the only ones to go by, since "texts" cannot correct your bad form when your mind tells you otherwise.
Do you think that if I told you to punch a punching bag, and gave you years of practice, that you would not punch the bag as a karateka would? or a wing chun fighter? or a muay thai fighter?
Understand that Pankration was used to kill in war, not just to keep fit, then you'll understand the mindset of the Hellenic Warrior of old. Whatever works, as fast as possible. They would not have worried with complex techniques until later in their training. So in essence, we can recreate it
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The video is good, but Pangration is NO longer EXISTS! It dissapeared thousan years ago and what remained now is just something that they use the name for taking money! Maybe some very few original things remained, but the original art is not anymore... :(
The art of pankration has been kept alive via boxing and the western wrestling disciplines and Savate.
Sure, the true art used by the gladiators is long dead, but the idea is the same. It's not as if these guys are doing 'the ninja' thing and dressing up like Leonidas.
It is important to remember that Jim Arvanitis recreated Pankration based on thorough investigation and research. It isn't a karate style just dressed up. It is how we, as modern humans think that our forefathers fought. We proudly hoist this flag knowing that some of the moves we have they didn't, and that some they had, we don't. It's the best we can do.
remember that the body is only capable of so many movements, this is why you find overlaps... Qin Na, Jujitsu, Greko Roman, Kato Pale =)
The fact is, that the ORIGINAL Pangkratio, is still in the Ancient Greeks graves and everything they say now about investigations and researches is only to take money taking advantage of the respect of Ancient warriors and this Martial Art!
Once again, you're wrong. The fact is that many recipes have not been baked for years, but because they were recorded in history, one could bake it today and eat what was eaten 1000 years ago.
Some may very well bake this recipe for money, yes... but others bake it to taste what it was like to be there, back in the old days - right by their forefather's sides. =)
Do you then class the history taught in schools and universities to be a "fairytale"? Because all they're doing is teaching what was documented a long time ago. We know how the British Longbowmen used to fire their bows because expert archers who's passion it was to dig into the history have revealed through research; all the ways it could have been used. Are their any real longbowmen from King Richards time walking the earth? No. But the history has bread the interest to revive the art.
1048 BC???? lol, go read jason and the argonauts buddy, Jason clearly said he used pankration to defeat his enemies and that his ancestors had used it for thousand of more years befor him. And your wrong about Pankration being created only 648 BC, when almost every good and credible historian states that it has over 8000 years of history.
Also,LEGEND says that Shuai Jiao in it's early form was used in the Han dynasty (2697 maybe?). LEGEND says also,Pankration, in it's early form (Pammachyon) was created by the great Heracles.too many legents my friend! i'm confused!
After Alexander the Great expanded the borders of Greece, this kind of MA was transmited to other nations, and then they combined their martial arts with technics from pancrace or pankration and made the different styles that we know today. Also i dont think that is good "fighting" for the place that a MA was borned, but if we like them, we must try to learn as many styles we can. I know pankration-MMA, boxing, jiu jitsu and i try to "stole" moves from other styles too :D.
Really..? In what seminar was this featured? Which Greek warriors transmitted these originally "Greek" ideas? Whiteboy fantasy. Have not a clue as to what real Greek MAs entailed/looked like. It is this fantasy driven element of Western culture which allows it to promulgate such cultural imperialism/wishful thinking worldwide.
if u take a look on internet u will see, that every ancient nation had its own style of martial arts, but many of theese nation were based on their weapons, but if u hold a small knife like those that ancient greek soldier had, u ll see that they were really heavy and they also had to carry other weapons and be fast. So they created a martial art that looks like sambo or modern MMA so that they can have brutal, close distance fights.
Great job! Thanks for doing this, the pankration is the best and the oldest. The only things that work in BJJ are the submissions stolen from pankration...lol.
actually there are takedowns and escapes in BJJ that can allow someone to free themselves from a dangerous position and get in another position better for ground and pound not just submissions and BJJ actually derived from Japanese judo and jujutsu not greek pankration
well japanese jujutsu was developed because previous martial arts could not be used against armored samurai. So joint locks were used. Thats what i heard
You heard wrong. In Okinawa the natives who learned Kung Fu which they called "Karate" would routinely kick Samurai's asses in hand to hand fights which pissed the Samurai all off because they view peasants and Okinawa natives with disgust. Jui Jitsu was eventually born and put into the Samurai arsenal. Its a direct response to Karate which derives from Kung Fu which is the forefather of many of the Asian punch-kick styles. That is why it is so effective against stand up fighters.
Nothing was stolen. Every nation has its own grappling style. That is like saying a nation stole the idea for the "bow and arrow" from another nation. That just stupid.
I'm really sorry, but these things freak me out sooo much!
dnt read this(cuz it really wrks). u will gt kissd on the nearest frieday by the love of ur life. 2mara wll b the bst day of ur life hwever if you dnt post ths comment 2 at least 3 vids u will die withn 2 days nw uv startd readn this dnt stp this is so scary snd ths ovr 2 5 vids in 143 mins when ur done press f6 nd ur crush's name wll appear on the screen n big letters ths is so scary cuz it actully wrks ths really wrks
Jacko821: Pankration was created before alexander the great was even born ;p
Dynaman21: boston crab most likely was created based on Greek/Roman wrestling which Greek/Roman wrestling is a copy of Pankration
Pankration was created as a deffensive yet aggresive form of protection, you can look up book that were written back on 800-1000 B.C with descriptions of pankration, how to move what to prevent etc.
LOL @ documentation going back 12,000 years, when ancient Greeks started writing and documenting things in its most basic form during the 9th century B.C! Thats just under 3,000 years at the very most, and none of the early documentation or even early pottery paintings depict any form of pankration, it came into the Olympics in the mid-7th century B.C. So many people who claim to be experts on pankration have their facts seriously messed up because they are not scholars.
scumbagsteve2011 4 months ago
χαχα εαν είσαστε Ελλήνες γιατί δεν μιλάτε ελληνικά ρε ψευταράδες..
PetrosGoltsis 6 months ago
ΑΡΧΑΙΑ ΕΛΛΑΔΑ!
giannis2krx 6 months ago 2
when will pankration come back to the olympics...
gnarlyismymiddlename 7 months ago 2
@gnarlyismymiddlename Say this to the French. They are the first to boycott the art from the 1896.
morfeas333 1 month ago
Wow so this like an ancient form of Vale Tudo
loui3333 8 months ago
@loui3333 Ancient form of Vale Tudo, and this existed way before Japanese Judo and Jiu Jitsu too.
DynastyLuminous46 8 months ago
read isiodos...
konkef 9 months ago
he's really wrong on many points...chinese culture goes back approximately 6000 and they have 5500 of it recorded, albeit he is right about 1000 of it being "officially" documented due to not even the chinese have individuals that can do or know how to properly translate the older works. now the Indus have claimed 7000 years but they do have 4000 years actual documentation. but 20000..? he's talking Uru but the inhabitants surrounding the Uru Empire never really associated with the Uru...
jayvthompson01 10 months ago
@jayvthompson01 ...this had to do with the fact that the Uru viewed others as a source of viable protein.
jayvthompson01 10 months ago
* "practiced by even fewer"
matprithellodave 10 months ago
Pankration originates from the Greek words pan / παν (all,everything) and kratos / κράτος (strength,power) meaning that the warrior (hopletes/οπλίτης) was ready to use all his abilities and the maximum of his strength to defend himself from the opponent.
BigNick157 10 months ago
lol the dude's a beefhead
jungleng 11 months ago
I read an article by Jim Arvantis [i think that is his last name] and he said Pankration was the worlds first "martial art." and that is what the Spartans were trained in. In the Bible, it mentions wrestling.
brooder9000 11 months ago
The instructors words from 6:36-6:44, give me serious doubts. Seriously? Documentation back to 20,000 years? That was roughly the period following the Ice Age. Also, writing was not invented until approx 5000 BC. Also, when he says Chinese legend going back to only 1000 years is plain wrong. It is a civilization that is over 2000 years old! I'm sure he is a good martial arts teacher, but I think a little fact checking might be in order here.
yussefumaketse 1 year ago 6
@yussefumaketse
Documentation does not necessarily mean literature. Ancient artifacts such as cave drawings or sculpture that obviously indicates wrestling or boxing matches suggests the existence of the practice.
Second, just because Chinese civilization existed a certain amount of years it is not a necessarily true that a Chinese legend existed just as long. There are many Chinese legends, I doubt that all these folk stories came about during the birth the civilization itself.
christosphotiou 11 months ago
@yussefumaketse the study of pankration is based on depictions on urns and other graphic depictions. Maybe not that old, since the greek culture is not that old (say you might have them since 5000 BC as a pre-statal bunch of cultures which would mean 7000 years ago). Just wanted to point out that it was not carried on by written word, but graphic depictions of moves, and modern pankration is the closest aproximation to the style based on a collection of drawings
Dakoo89 10 months ago
@yussefumaketse PS he said documentation was back 12000 years (that means 10000 BC let's pretend it's plausible) and that LEGEND might root even further back in time...but the fact is that it is likely that pankration is the oldest form of martial art, and that it was taken by traders to the far east.
Dakoo89 10 months ago
@yussefumaketse indeed but he said ''legend'' goes back 20000 years.so we cannot say its true.i agree though he needs a fact check
mysterion1994 10 months ago
@yussefumaketse i am greek and can tell you it was only recently found that we have been around for just under 4000years not 20,000 i agree he does need to check facts.
koringn 9 months ago 4
@SupremeARA915
is not dead is on ancient coins ancient text and ancient status
llleonidas1 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
love from Greece (HELLAS) mother of western civilization
tasoskoyt 1 year ago
He's a great guy. Aris met up with me and Brad Morris is Canada when we were up there for UFC 83. He offered up his gym to Brad and I to use while we were up there.
ssfgear 1 year ago
I like pankration and Anastasia!
talon115 1 year ago
did they come up with the submissions and armbars first or japan did
ChineseMonstah 1 year ago
The art of combat started in Mesopotama close to 10,000 years ago. There is proof that the wheel, spears, arrows, fire, alphabet, shields and hand to hand was first documented here.
clearcombat 1 year ago
shes...really hot
sagmann20 1 year ago
bring this back dam it!
irvrod 1 year ago
the tough ass training supported the fact to kill like nothing
stonesour60 1 year ago
that guy apeared in the human weapon :)
deussanctus 1 year ago
H E L L A S
JOHNNYwxw 1 year ago
She doesn't look Greek
Chupchapchoop 1 year ago
yes she does
TheLantzEmbry 1 year ago
she has quite a nice arse
snakeplissken83 1 year ago
The way the Spartans were depicted in the history books one would assume them to be a barbaric, gruesome, and hateful, yet the Spartan art work from the "300" era always depicts faces with rather intense smiles. Something doesn't add up if they were solely consumed by war, yet so joyous in their art. Our limited sources of info are known to exaggerate and even fabricate. They didn't leave their own records. We rely on their recently beaten enemies for most of the story.
AnteGamisou2 2 years ago
@AnteGamisou2
what is often agreed upon though was the extremely rigorous professional status of their hoplites, when most hoplites were militia, part time watrriors who trained not infrequently, and combined with a bronze helm, brestplate greaves, thick shield and long spear in formation. theres a reason phalanxes were vulnerable only from the sides or against the ppikes.
elgostine 1 year ago
@elgostine and if spartans were as well drilled even as half good astey say, that means they could about face, quickly raising spears, the men on the facing rankquickly bringing to bear,then the restfollow to support
similar to the romans or the redcoats of wellingtons time.
elgostine 1 year ago
@elgostine
Nice, but how does that translate into the silly 300 style choreograghy, or the silly Spike Channel "reconstructions" of supposed outcomes of battles between "historic" warriors? Or the contemporary "Greek" MAs which clearly borrow HEAVILY from ASIAN MAs. Here's what we know: there is no extant Greek MA to speak of, so all this speculation is to no avail-it's a moot point. Here's something else: Hung Gar is Chinese, and no 300/Alexander Western fantasy will change that.
shango1963 1 year ago
@shango1963 huh??? 300 was basd off agraphic novel frst off. and was never mant to be truely historical.
spikev from wht i hear was a historical failure, and really just played to sterotypes and popular image. the spartan ironically from what i hear (havent seen the eisodes) wernt testedTOO badly because the weapons were simple, and correct
the pankration was recorded durng the ncient olympics as beiing like ow the instructor tells it
kicking, punching and grappling, similar to MMA
elgostine 1 year ago
@shango1963 and who and when did i say hung gar had ANYTHING to do with greek fighting. i didnt even mention the chinese at allthis has NOTHING to do with china and japan, this is what did/ didnt happen in greece
elgostine 1 year ago
@AnteGamisou2
Whoa...! At last, a sensible response!
shango1963 1 year ago
TaskForce,
What you mention about the Spartans is only revealed to us through the writing of Athenians, their enemies. This is like Rush Limblaugh writing a history of the Clinton Admin. The throwing babies off the cliff because they were too small has been recently proven a myth by archaeologists. The Helots were hardly slaves and didn't do all the work. Male citizens were warriors by trade, but those who didn't make it into the "Army" became tradesmen and lived outside the main cities.
AnteGamisou2 2 years ago
That isn't what I read from archeological books on ancient Spartan civilization. They claimed to indeed find the sacred cliff that Spartans were ordered to leave their unhealthy children to die. They found baby skeletons everywhere. And they weren't tossed off the cliff but placed there in a basket by their mothers and left to die. And the slaves in Sparta were slaves from what I've read. They might not have been in chains but they were still an underclass who served the Spartans.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago
All you write about is text book history based almost entirely on the writings of Herodotus. Archaeologists excavated the area around the "cliff" just over a year ago and only found adult remains. Probably executed captives.
AnteGamisou2 2 years ago
I read that in order to be a full citizen Spartans had to kill one of those slaves, Helots. Fear of the enslaved helots was what made them live in a state of constant readiness for war. Makes me think of South africa under apartheid.
redkittyspaw 2 years ago
The funniest thing is that now, every white guys who loves martial arts is a Spartan (they got Irish Athenians now-lol-Lepracans are midget Spartans-every white cat's Greek!
shango1963 2 years ago
Your history for you is all it is. Nubia didn't teach Africa how to fight, and Ta-Seti and Ta-Nahasi (Nubia) existed long before Dorian Greeks founded that City-State, unless you believe recent studies to be fairy tales. And, yes, without a extant current lineage, reconstructing anything that is supposed to be an exact representation of past subject matter is larger in the eye of the "reconstructionist."
shango1963 2 years ago
One of the pankration techiques were to squeeze the opponents balls.
The goal is to make them give up and not kill them.
gbatemper123 2 years ago
Pankration was probably the most effective, brutal, deadly and macho martial art of all time. It was developed purely to kill on the battlefield and even the ancient olympic sport version makes constant references to eye gouging, finger breaking, fatal suffocations from chokes, etc. Pankration is the oldest martial art, it's the original martial art, it's the toughtest martial art and it's the closest ANY matial art has ever gotten to a real free for all fight for survival. But it died long ago.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago 7
The reason why it was so effective and brutal is because the Spartans had almost zero regard for human life. They were borderline psychotic in their combat training and people died all the time. No other warrior class in human hostory can ever hold a candle to the Spartans or their Pankration hand to hand fighting technique. They make the samurai look like pussies.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago 13
@TaskForceSixTwoSix
Spartans make samurai look like pussies...? Ah, I missed that video footage (of that great fight).
shango1963 2 years ago
The Spartans were simply the most hardcore warrior clas ever in human history. I base that on my own love of history. Never have I ever come across another warrior class that comes even close to the Spartans. First of all they practiced an ancient form of eugenics. Every single Spartan infant was closely examined by a council of elders who looked for any sign of physical weakness. If your baby had any sort of handicap or if it was just tiny it was ordered to be killed.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago
The mother was forced to place her infant in a basket and they she had to take the infant to a sacred cliff where it was abandoned to be killed by the elements. The mother had no say in whether she could save her child or not. If she didn't abandon it she herself would have been killed. This ensured that every single Spartan citizen was physically fit and healthy. Hitler was said to be a great admirer of this Spartan practice and it's believed that it influenced his own evil eugenic programs.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago
If the Spartan child survived his first life or death test he was forced to join a military school at around the age of 7 and would be seperated from his parents for the rest of his life. His new "parent" became his older adult Spartan warrior trainer who took the child under his wing and taught him how to be a warrior. This Spartan practice was said to influence George Lucas's Jedi and Padawn learner relationship in the Star Wars films.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago
But the Spartans were bizarre as well. The relationship wasn't completely innocent. Basically the older Spartan warrior would start a romantic relationship with the child. So the Spartans were ancient homosexual pedophiles as well. And this was mandatory in Spartan society. They obviously didn't have the sexual taboos that we have today. Anyway, from the age of around 7 the Spartan boy was taught primarily unarmed combat such as Pankration grappling, wrestling and striking.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago
He was also taught how to use wooden weapons to simulate real ones when he got a bit older. During this time they were also roughed up constantly by their adult Spartan warrior teachers. They were forced to play ancient forms of king of the mountain where'd they basically dog pile on top of each other and beat the crap out of each other in order to gain supremacy. And another trial they had to go through were mass whippings where they were tied to stone pillars and whipped.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago
And it was done in front of their cheering parnets if you can believe it. Their Spartan parents would be watching from rows of seats around the pillars and would be cheering for them not to give up. It was an endurance test to see how much pain these small Spartan children in training could take before giving up. They were also purposely poorly fed and looked after in order to encourage them to scrounge for food as training for if they ever got trapped behind enemy lines and needed to survive.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago
Throughout their entire training process these Spartan children were often literally beaten to death. This continued the eugenics-like selection process which weeded out the weak from Spartan society. Then when they got a couple years older they advanced to more complicated weapons and fight training where the likelyhood of being killed increased. Then in their teens they advanced to using full on real weapons and practiced formation tactics and cohesion to master battlefield movements.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago
And again, the chances of being killed during training increased even more. During all this time they were kept away fromnot only their parents but all females in general. The females and males in Spartan society were strictly segregated. But even the females were trained hard as well. They were all taught to wrestle, archery, and use other weapons. And as a testament to how physically fit they were non-Spartan historical records comment on the perfection of the athletic Spartan female body.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago
They were also all lesbians just like all the boys were gay. The final test for a Spartan male to finish his military school training required him to be banished from the Spartan society and to live on his own off the land and by stealing from the slave population. And if he was caught he was severely beaten by his Spartan warrior military school trainers. Again this was done to ensure that they could survive on their own if they ever got trapped behind enemy lines.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago
The last most brutal requirment of this final test was the task of ambushing and strangeling a slave to death in order to instill the Spartan boy with the willingness and comfort to kill. If he finished all this he graduated and became a Spartan warrior at around the age of 18. But even then his training was still nowhere near complete. For the rest of his adult life he was required to dedicate every single day of his life to continuing his warrior training.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago
His next test was getting accepted into a kind of Sparan training/drinking club. They tested you to see how fit and tough you were. If you made it you got to relax with them during breaks in the day between their training sessions. And do you want to know what their favorite drink was? It was a combination of vinegar and cows blood. They chugged that down every day like it was beer. And years later if he proved himself as a great Spartan warrior on the battlefield he was allowed to get married.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago
Male female relationships were very odd in Spartan society. Marriages were relatively rare and sex between most males and females was purely for the purpose of creating more Spartan wariors. Their mating rituals were extremely elaborite and strange. They could last days and usually it was the first time the male or female had ever interacted with the opposite gender before. The female also had her head shaven and was forced to wear male Spartan clothes. Like I said they were bizarre.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago
Another strange aspect of Spartan society was how anti-materialistic they were. They shunned elaborate posessions or signs of wealth. They generally only had a rug, a simple bed and maybe a pot. Anything else was frowned upon. Hence the modern phrase "spartan interior". So the Spartans were a strange but fascinating mix of communism, Nazism, gay pride and ultra-militancy. Another testament to their insanely militant civilization was their choice of Gods.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago
Their God for love was the same God for war. So they were basically taught to love war. And you see evidence for that everywhere. They loved raiding their Greek neighbors just for kicks. It was like going to the bar on Friday night for them. They were also taught to sacrifice themselves at the command of one of their officers. I forget what they called it but it basically translated into "go seek a beautiful death" and then they'd immediately charge off into the enemy all by themselves.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago
They'd try to kill as many as the enemy as possible before they themselves were killed. And to touch upon some more of the stranger aspects of Spartan society, they'd prepare before every battle by stripping naked and then oiling themselves up with fragent scented oils and combing each others hair right in the view of their enemies. This was recorded by their enemies in perplexed astonishment. They prepared to do battle like they were going to a party. They loved it.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago
Another intesting testmanet to their extreme militantancy was a Spartan shield found by archeologists. On it a mother scribed on her sons shield "come back to me with this shield or on it". That basically meant "If you don't return home carrying your shield in victory then I'd rather have your body carried back on it dead". Spartan mothers obviously believed in tough love... Also other ancient historians constantly commented on the insane militancy of the Spartans.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago
They said that the Spartans had no protective city walls like every other city because they didn't need them. Their citizens themselves were all the defense they needed since every single Spartan was a highly trained and motivated warrior. And the ultimate testament to the unmatched ferocity of the Spartans are their actual accomplishments. People can talk up anyone they want listing off the things that made them amazing. But the Spartans proved it without a doubt at Thermopylae.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago
Only 300 Spartan warriors held off the entire invading persian army of 300,000+ soldiers for 3 days before they were betrayed by a local farmer and outflanked through a hidden mountain pass and surrounded. But before they died they kill possibly 100,000+ persian soldiers. 300 men! - Spartan men did that. That isn't make believe. That isn't hollywood. They really did that. Proof that no one will ever come close to the sheer madness that was ancient Sparta.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago
And keep in mind that there was no other profession in Spartan society besides being a warrior. There were no merchants, craftsmen, etc. That was all taken care of by slaves. There were onlya few politicians and most of the royal family became royal by proving themselves the best warriors. They also lead their men in battle from the front. So they were warrior kings just the famous Leonidas proved. Yes, he was a real person. They'd obliterate the samurai with ease. No one comes close to Sparta.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago 15
I appreciate your commentary, but let's examine some things. First, there is no extant Spartan tradition to back any of these claims up. Second, being a psycopathic bisexual adds nothing to the end result of a clash between two warriors, and little Massai boys are tasked with taking down a LION as part of their traditional rites of passage into the Massai's warrior class, among other horrors. They do this calmly, not allowed to show emotion, not like a wild eyed lunatic.
shango1963 2 years ago
Yes, there is. All the information I just wrote I got from history books about ancient Spartan civilization. Their daily lives and beliefs were written about quite extensively by historians from that time period. And no their bizarre culture and practices don't make them better warriors perse but it does help illustrate how extreme in general they were. And I don't give a shit about the masai. Even cave people made their kids hunt bears. Who cares? I'm not impressed witht that at all.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago
The Spartans built an entire civilization that revolved around one thing and one thing alone - creating the perfect warrior again and again until every single citizen of Sparta was more highly trained than even the most elite soldiers of other empires. No other civilization in human history can come anywhere close to touching their level of militancy.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix how about masai? or zulu? and weren't all able bodied lakota trained to fight from infancy?
snakeplissken83 1 year ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix
What history books? Which ones detail the hand to hand combat techniques featured herein? Which ones detail the Greek teachers who brought the rudiments of Kalaripayyattu to India and Nei Shu to China. These Greek Dorian-white MAs fathers are curiously never mentioned by their Asian "descendants..."
shango1963 1 year ago
No Spartan force ever conquered Ta-Nahasi (Nubia-from whence much of the world's gold derived at the time) and Alexander conquered a Kemet (Egypt) weekened and long past her African glory.
shango1963 2 years ago
@shango1963 alexander BARELY conquored it, it wasnt even a battle the egyptions moreor less went ok you win'.
elgostine 1 year ago
The problem with most Westerners is that they arrogantly believe that a thing which is not a footnote in some text does not exist. I have access to African traditions which most people do not, traditions of which a Navy SEAL would not wish to endure. I'll be satisfied if you show me somewhere where Spartans were tasked to defeat a LION. Otherwise, I don't care how "crazy" you claim them to be, it's just talk.
shango1963 2 years ago
@shango1963
thats not arrogance, thats ignorance.. if you dont have any records of it, your not going to consider it as an option, so most eople wold assume if there was something there wed have written about it,
on behalf of the explorers there would have beensome bias in conveniently leaving that out. but for those reading the texts, and nothing is mentioned about african rituals.
dont expect them to consider it very strongly.
elgostine 1 year ago
In Africa, even today, there are Lion, Leopard and Crocodile societies, to name but a few, whose rituals are not accessible by the uninitiated. Killing in such a way that the death appeared as done by the animals upon which these societies were derived are but some of the methods.
shango1963 2 years ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix
I know there is a Dr./Patient confidentiality clause regarding disclosure of such info., but could you please provide a case study of the Spartans you have treated? And, again, when the Spartans beat the Samurai, was that on Pay-Per-View...?
shango1963 2 years ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix yes but dont forget about the Maori ...they where aswell verry brutal may not that effectiv in warfar but in warrior mind not less dangerous
RedDeadRevolva 1 year ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix its not that they had no regard for human life but they had no regard for weakness. from the time they were lil they trained to become strang and for generations they worked on it even lookin how he babies were to make the best warrior
dagreg32 1 year ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix a ninja would kill them howev3er. And don't say that one show the spartan won. Actually that would be a good fight, ninja vs spartan, real ninja. Pankration survived, ninjutsu nowadays is crap, I don't mean it's watered down, it was lost and people claim to teach it which is total crap, the last ninja lived like 70 years ago. Spartans had the phalanx but ninjas are meant for esponoiage and can find weaknesses along with going into the houses and stabbing through the...
LightxKira5643 1 year ago
Ninjas were just samurai who developed a slightly different form of martial arts to fit the intelligence gathering role that they filled. They were nothing like how they're protrayed in popular culture. They weren't dark assassins who ran around in black pajamas killing people without ever making a sound. They were basically just spies who trained in combat techniques to defend themselves incase they we were ever caught. They also wore full suits of armor just like the samurai did.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 1 year ago
And I disagree with you that ninjitsu is totally dead. Masaaki Hatsumi seems to have the credentials to verify his claims of being taught ninjitsu in its entirety. Although he could very well be lying since he said that authentic ninjitsu will die with him because such a violent martial art has no place in the modern world. Sounds like bullcrap to me. And I don't think ninjitsu is all that effective anyway.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 1 year ago
Pankration was simply much more raw and brutal. And its practicioners were just rough, borderline psychotic, people. Kids were regularly beaten to death when they trained in Pankration. And the entire militaristic and heartless mindset of Spartan civilization was just beyond anything modern people can comprehend. And of course Pankration became the #1 sport in ancient Greece as well. Constant warfare and life or death competition quickly weeds out ineffective techniques.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 1 year ago
Kind of like like how modern MMA has utterly exposed the glaring and hilarious ineffectiveness of most modern eastern martial art techniques - you won't see 1 inch punches, karate chops, elaborate spinning kicks, death touches, tiger claw and drunker master strikes - that same type of no nonsense process happened daily in ancient Greece. Pankration is the real deal and still, amazingly, holds up today and is very similar to the techniques and minset of modern MMA.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 1 year ago
We're relearning and rediscovering what they already figured out through trial and error thousands of years ago.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 1 year ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix One inch death punchs were actually very strong, it's just that only bruce lee could do it xP
Karate is a punching martial art but don't underestimate a chop, if you can land one on the neck you can kill the person. A spinning kick done by a strong artist which is kinda rare in america can easily surprise someone and can be done quickly. Also it adds more power and isn't pure show. Tiger claw is effective but trash artists try it, and drunken style is effective.
LightxKira5643 1 year ago
@LightxKira5643 No. Lots of people can. It's really not that difficult. And he didn't invent it. Those kinds of techniques were part of kung fu for centuries. The reason why skilled kickers aren't popular in MMA is because they all got their asses handed to them very early on in the history of MMA competitions. All the kick boxers, TKD, karate, etc, types just got completely annihilated. A Westernized and highly modified version of Muay Thai has served as the foundation for modern MMA striking.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 1 year ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix Karate is a punching martial art btw, you obviously don't know shit about martial arts do you? Also muay thai hasn't changed for the better. It started as a war art muay boran, then moved on to muay thai for ring fights that are more violent than mma, then I guess they took off some stuff and called it mma.
LightxKira5643 1 year ago
@LightxKira5643 Actually karate is punching and kicking. The problem with karate is it teaches too many useless stances,punches and kicks. Muay Thai is way better actually with time,and more effective. You obviously don't know what MMA is. You can't take stuff away from kickboxing and call it MMA,because MMA stands for Mixed Martials Arts which includes everything of muay thai,boxing and grappling with chokes,arm bars etc.
asoka2000 1 year ago
@asoka2000 It used to be used for real combat, that's the kind I'm talking about. I'm talking about full contact karate which still exists.
LightxKira5643 1 year ago
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@LightxKira5643 ha ha ha ha, are you freaking serious!!!!!!!!!!!! if you believe that you're crazy. Capoeira is more of a dance than a martial arts although it does include both. Capoeira is more of a show then anything.
And yes I know the history of Capoeira came from the black slaves who tried to hide their art from their masters, but the change completely ruined it making it useless. A person in Muay Thai,Boxing,Tae Kwon Do,Pankration and Judo or Aikido would destroy a Capoeirist.
asoka2000 1 year ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix if you fought a capeoira artist, you would know how hard it is to fight a foreign fighter. I don't mean asian or anything, I mean that their style is really random and awkward. Well drunken style they have complete control of themselves by using their core and then they wait for the target to attack and quickly attack them as if they were completely ready for the attack, so it's kinda confusing to fight and also they can move around flexibly.
LightxKira5643 1 year ago
@LightxKira5643 ha ha ha ha, are you freaking serious!!!!!!!!!!!! if you believe that you're crazy. Capoeira is more of a dance than a martial arts although it does include both. Capoeira is more of a show then anything.
And yes I know the history of Capoeira came from the black slaves who tried to hide their art from their masters, but the change completely ruined it making it useless. A person in Muay Thai,Boxing,Tae Kwon Do,Pankration and Judo or Aikido would destroy a Capoeirist.
asoka2000 1 year ago
@asoka2000 Yet again a cocky mma fighter. It's the artist. i mean a good capoerist is really good but crappy ones are horrible, to a lower level than most. It's a martial art that if your good your good, if your bad, your horrible.
LightxKira5643 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@LightxKira5643 ha ha ha ha, are you freaking serious!!!!!!!!!!!! if you believe that you're crazy. Capoeira is more of a dance than a martial arts although it does include both. Capoeira is more of a show then anything.
And yes I know the history of Capoeira came from the black slaves who tried to hide their art from their masters, but the change completely ruined it making it useless. A person in Muay Thai,Boxing,Tae Kwon Do,Pankration and Judo or Aikido would destroy a Capoeirist.
asoka2000 1 year ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix Ninjutsu children were trained daily with just as hard conditions except the fact that they had a different result in mind. And if you don't recall this, japan was in just as much shi* back then as pankration. Sanada apparently had 10 ninja in his employ called the sanada 10 brave and also a fact is hanzo hattori saved the emperor or maybe shoguns life by showing him a secret route through familiar mountains.
LightxKira5643 1 year ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix Sure those. But there were also other ninjas. But you are so wrong btw. Ninjas were actually created to fill the gap, samurai couldn't do any of the stuff they could because their honor which was more important than their life stopped them from assasinating and giving the enemy falty information so ninjas were created out of neccessity. Now if you studied, you'd find out that ninjas were in the mountains in villages.
LightxKira5643 1 year ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix Kouga and Iga were the biggest of these "villages" of ninja. And their style was ninjutsu. ninjas were eventually ordered to be executed because how much fear the leader of japan had for them. He knew very well that they could kill him and was terrified of them. I mean only the most skilled people can avoid death by them. Like they would go under the buildings and then stick a long blade through the ground in and attempt to strike their prey. ninjutsu was a good art.
LightxKira5643 1 year ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix In ww2, a similiar case like that happened. His name was fujita seito, but unlike the guy you mention, he was a highly revered martial artist and even fought for japan in Ww2. So he proved his worth with more than lineage. He said that no people had the quality needed to be a good ninja and so died with kouga ryu ninjutsu. But the truth of the matter is that ninjutsu is dead to the public, that they work for the government mainly.
LightxKira5643 1 year ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix After exile, the majority fused into the japanese government system and did their dirty work and such. And besides that group, the rest either died or trained in secret and only taught their family. No truely trained ninjutsu martial artist would go into the public and start training people, that would go against their teachings. Though you don't have to fear them now since japan is at peace at this moment.
LightxKira5643 1 year ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix ground, a common move that only people like sanada and stuff could avoid. Samurai weren't all gods in the least bit but there were people like musashi who could put a spartan to shame, musashi, kojiro, sanada, and okita soji are probally the best swordsman ever to come into asia and will stand uncontested.
LightxKira5643 1 year ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix In terms of martial arts "style", both are very effective and very flexible, ninjutsu trained people to use all weapons, from a pitchfork to a nodachi (generally a 2hander)
Spartans were epic though and pankration is very effective. I personally see it as one of the strongest martial arts next to changquan and muay boran.
LightxKira5643 1 year ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix the voice of ignorance
hirpus35 1 year ago
not true
FIGHTFANNERD3 2 years ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix
This is silly, as most martial arts contain these (the African derived art of Danmye/Ladja did just that during the Ladja De Morte battles in Martinique); are you referencing the MA "All Powers" or the competition venue at which it was displayed. You must little to nothing about martial arts traditions world wide if you "think" otherwise.
shango1963 2 years ago
Huh? The Spartans practiced an especially deadly version of Pankration. It was purely designed to take your enemy to the ground and then break their neck, suffocate them to death or break their limbs so you could take their weapon from them and keep on killing the enemy with it. Other Greeks developed a sport version (still deadly) of Pankration for the ancient olympic games (it was the most popular event). The Spartans rejected taking part in it because it wasn't brutal enough.
TaskForceSixTwoSix 2 years ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix
And just what deadlier form
of Pankration did the Spartans use
when in fact there existed only two true forms in the Pankration fighting system!?
jkr221 2 years ago
no the Spartans considered it disgraceful to admit defeat in anything and therefore did not compete.
phelpsasnal 2 years ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix I agree, i think that the pankration training that the guy is teaching probably isn't how the spartans actually fought like. I think that this is a modern version that was influenced by other martial arts such as jin jutsu.
memphisdarkwolf 1 year ago
@memphisdarkwolf
true, of course but the training mimics the style and the martial art (the philosophy of the sport). The Greeks boxed, ano wrestled (similar to Greco, since it was standing) and kato wrestled (grappling), and pankratoned (similar to today's MMA)
christosphotiou 11 months ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix is it basically mma?
JKT6 1 year ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix not the first...kallari payattu is the oldest documented martial art. Its an indian martial art that out dates pankration by at least 1000 years. kallari payattu is also father to kung fu, and muay thai (possibly the most brutal, practical, and effective stand up fighting form to date).
sagmann20 1 year ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix Muay Baron is more deadly.
clearcombat 1 year ago
@clearcombat Its Muay Buran...and U will never know if its more efective or not u probabily didnt practice any of them...The fighter always mathers....Not the art....U will search and search and continue searchign till U find a martiala rts for ur body tipe...beliefs and etc...Hoope u get meh chers
gohanmisticul 1 year ago
@gohanmisticul Your spelling is terrible. I am right about the spelling of " Muay Boran". You need to educate yourself on the martial arts.
clearcombat 1 year ago
@clearcombat well I did a Typo over there...and I tink im more educated...about martial arts more then some wanna be....dun bother to wrrite back I wont reply,I hate internet wanna bes....and about my speeling eng more then sure aint the languge Im speaking evryday...u get meh here dont u?well anyway have fun wannabe-kun
gohanmisticul 1 year ago
@gohanmisticul I am a combat instructor in New Jersey. Be careful!
clearcombat 1 year ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix That is a big true......It died long ago.....
170GMS 1 year ago
@TaskForceSixTwoSix I agree , except with the dieing part as it has come back and is just as effective in a real situation. I study pankration and have been doing so for 7 yrs. nothing comes closer to a real situation, after all it is considered a MMA (Mixed Martial Arts), I have done other styles like karate and nothing compares to MMA.
asoka2000 1 year ago
i watched a documentary about this and i think this is awesome...
croatianboy14 2 years ago
NO HISTORY said the art was revived!
Kuopioboy 2 years ago
Believe whatever you want!
Real KNLOWLEDGE people know that these are just bushits for some to make money taking advantage of the ancient art of Pangkration!
Kuopioboy 2 years ago
@Kuopioboy
Agreed, except that some of the folks may be doing it for some supposed since of cultural pride (albeit for something that is long since did a san extant tradition).
shango1963 2 years ago
If you don't believe that we're smart enough to revive an ancient art (where the study of the human body wasn't what it is now, where martial arts pressure testing has been done with science etc) then I'm afraid you're not very confident in our ability. Besides that, it would mean that you don't believe in documented historical text and therefore everything before yourself "died out" or "isn't REAL". Think about it.
TheAthenaProject 2 years ago
@TheAthenaProject
I believe what my "lying eyes" tell me, and I am definately not taking the word of some "European" researcher on "world historical events." Extant traditions are the only ones to go by, since "texts" cannot correct your bad form when your mind tells you otherwise.
shango1963 2 years ago
i wouldnt mind fighting that Instructor in a street fight.
cerberus94 2 years ago
@ Kuopioboy
Do you think that if I told you to punch a punching bag, and gave you years of practice, that you would not punch the bag as a karateka would? or a wing chun fighter? or a muay thai fighter?
Understand that Pankration was used to kill in war, not just to keep fit, then you'll understand the mindset of the Hellenic Warrior of old. Whatever works, as fast as possible. They would not have worried with complex techniques until later in their training. So in essence, we can recreate it
TheAthenaProject 2 years ago
Hi, Aris knows his stuff. Pankration is a 100%. Go Aris!
MrTeanis 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
The video is good, but Pangration is NO longer EXISTS! It dissapeared thousan years ago and what remained now is just something that they use the name for taking money! Maybe some very few original things remained, but the original art is not anymore... :(
Kuopioboy 2 years ago
The art of pankration has been kept alive via boxing and the western wrestling disciplines and Savate.
Sure, the true art used by the gladiators is long dead, but the idea is the same. It's not as if these guys are doing 'the ninja' thing and dressing up like Leonidas.
jacksonswastedlife 2 years ago
Sorry my friend, but NO idea is same and the REAL art had died more than 22 centuries now. Some things are knowned, but not the REAL art.
Kuopioboy 2 years ago
wooohoo wrestling for the win, Jv wrestling haha
sfatpaintballer 2 years ago
It is important to remember that Jim Arvanitis recreated Pankration based on thorough investigation and research. It isn't a karate style just dressed up. It is how we, as modern humans think that our forefathers fought. We proudly hoist this flag knowing that some of the moves we have they didn't, and that some they had, we don't. It's the best we can do.
remember that the body is only capable of so many movements, this is why you find overlaps... Qin Na, Jujitsu, Greko Roman, Kato Pale =)
TheAthenaProject 2 years ago
The fact is, that the ORIGINAL Pangkratio, is still in the Ancient Greeks graves and everything they say now about investigations and researches is only to take money taking advantage of the respect of Ancient warriors and this Martial Art!
Kuopioboy 2 years ago
Once again, you're wrong. The fact is that many recipes have not been baked for years, but because they were recorded in history, one could bake it today and eat what was eaten 1000 years ago.
Some may very well bake this recipe for money, yes... but others bake it to taste what it was like to be there, back in the old days - right by their forefather's sides. =)
TheAthenaProject 2 years ago
Once again, you live in a fairytaile! There is not such a thing!
Kuopioboy 2 years ago
Do you then class the history taught in schools and universities to be a "fairytale"? Because all they're doing is teaching what was documented a long time ago. We know how the British Longbowmen used to fire their bows because expert archers who's passion it was to dig into the history have revealed through research; all the ways it could have been used. Are their any real longbowmen from King Richards time walking the earth? No. But the history has bread the interest to revive the art.
TheAthenaProject 2 years ago
This argument on which came first, Shuai Jiao of Pankration is a lost one since it is similar to which continent did Pyramids first appear in.
GuardianShisa 2 years ago 2
1048 BC???? lol, go read jason and the argonauts buddy, Jason clearly said he used pankration to defeat his enemies and that his ancestors had used it for thousand of more years befor him. And your wrong about Pankration being created only 648 BC, when almost every good and credible historian states that it has over 8000 years of history.
erosensai 2 years ago 2
im goin to do pankration
AH7008 2 years ago
Also,LEGEND says that Shuai Jiao in it's early form was used in the Han dynasty (2697 maybe?). LEGEND says also,Pankration, in it's early form (Pammachyon) was created by the great Heracles.too many legents my friend! i'm confused!
jimman272002 2 years ago
Pankration already existed in 648BC,when it entered olympic games as a sport.
jimman272002 2 years ago
After Alexander the Great expanded the borders of Greece, this kind of MA was transmited to other nations, and then they combined their martial arts with technics from pancrace or pankration and made the different styles that we know today. Also i dont think that is good "fighting" for the place that a MA was borned, but if we like them, we must try to learn as many styles we can. I know pankration-MMA, boxing, jiu jitsu and i try to "stole" moves from other styles too :D.
KChriSt0S 2 years ago
sorry for my bad english and for the wrong order of commenting
KChriSt0S 2 years ago
Oh man! where do you find the time to do all this?
jimman272002 2 years ago
@KChriSt0S
Really..? In what seminar was this featured? Which Greek warriors transmitted these originally "Greek" ideas? Whiteboy fantasy. Have not a clue as to what real Greek MAs entailed/looked like. It is this fantasy driven element of Western culture which allows it to promulgate such cultural imperialism/wishful thinking worldwide.
shango1963 1 year ago
if u take a look on internet u will see, that every ancient nation had its own style of martial arts, but many of theese nation were based on their weapons, but if u hold a small knife like those that ancient greek soldier had, u ll see that they were really heavy and they also had to carry other weapons and be fast. So they created a martial art that looks like sambo or modern MMA so that they can have brutal, close distance fights.
KChriSt0S 2 years ago
and since judo is believed to be derived from japanese jujutsu...
slamminsteve707 2 years ago
was ancient pankration the same as mma or was it much more dangerous?
fireking9934 2 years ago
mirando el pancration se puede ver las mma actuales en combate, pero claramente esta actual tiene mayor variante
partenucas12y3veces 2 years ago
Great job! Thanks for doing this, the pankration is the best and the oldest. The only things that work in BJJ are the submissions stolen from pankration...lol.
kunga666 2 years ago
actually there are takedowns and escapes in BJJ that can allow someone to free themselves from a dangerous position and get in another position better for ground and pound not just submissions and BJJ actually derived from Japanese judo and jujutsu not greek pankration
slamminsteve707 2 years ago
BJJ didnt derive from Greek Pankration it derived from Japanese Judo and JiuJitsu which i think derived from Greek pankration
kingwilly34 2 years ago
well japanese jujutsu was developed because previous martial arts could not be used against armored samurai. So joint locks were used. Thats what i heard
slamminsteve707 2 years ago
You heard wrong. In Okinawa the natives who learned Kung Fu which they called "Karate" would routinely kick Samurai's asses in hand to hand fights which pissed the Samurai all off because they view peasants and Okinawa natives with disgust. Jui Jitsu was eventually born and put into the Samurai arsenal. Its a direct response to Karate which derives from Kung Fu which is the forefather of many of the Asian punch-kick styles. That is why it is so effective against stand up fighters.
Warpath2198 2 years ago 2
Nothing was stolen. Every nation has its own grappling style. That is like saying a nation stole the idea for the "bow and arrow" from another nation. That just stupid.
Warpath2198 2 years ago 3
thats my teacher :D
halfpound92 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I'm really sorry, but these things freak me out sooo much!
dnt read this(cuz it really wrks). u will gt kissd on the nearest frieday by the love of ur life. 2mara wll b the bst day of ur life hwever if you dnt post ths comment 2 at least 3 vids u will die withn 2 days nw uv startd readn this dnt stp this is so scary snd ths ovr 2 5 vids in 143 mins when ur done press f6 nd ur crush's name wll appear on the screen n big letters ths is so scary cuz it actully wrks ths really wrks
lol101girl 2 years ago
Jacko821: Pankration was created before alexander the great was even born ;p
Dynaman21: boston crab most likely was created based on Greek/Roman wrestling which Greek/Roman wrestling is a copy of Pankration
Pankration was created as a deffensive yet aggresive form of protection, you can look up book that were written back on 800-1000 B.C with descriptions of pankration, how to move what to prevent etc.
hesperus83 2 years ago