Corn Ethanol More Harmful Than Gasoline

[davejoson]

The manipulation is in full force to kill off Ethanol as a true competitor to the fossel fuel monopoly. Don't be fooled!!! The first Ford car, the Model T ran exclusively on Ethanol. See a true successful transistion to an Ethanol energy reality.

YouTube video on practical ethanol use.

Type this in your YouTube Search:

Ethanol in Brazil

by: oberon71

[workensmart]

@davejoson The model T did not run exclusively on Ethanol. It could run on Gasoline, Kerosene and Ethanol. They made allot of cars like this back then. Gas stations were not at every corner like they are today. The country was still developing. So what they did was design engines that could run on multiple fuels so people could run what was available to them. All people need to do is look this up on the internet. Were did you get your information from?.

[davejoson]

Brazil is the only country that enacted a practical alternative energy policy since the oil embargo in the 70's using Ethanol from sugar cane which is 80% more efficient than corn as a crop for ethanol.(sugar beets also more efficient than corn 70%) Brazil is now the worlds leader in ethanol production. They are not crippled by wars around the world. The US should drop the import tax on Brazil's ethanol exports to the US until they get serious on an ethanol energy policy of their own.

[TheAutoChannel]

The information contained in this video about corn ethanol is false. There are better materials to use for ethanol than corn, but the attempt to make corn a villain is wrong.

The Auto Channel has a tremendous amount of information about ethanol on our website and in several videos presented here on YouTube. Go there for the truth.

[JZarter]

Ethanol kills people all over the world, due to the fact: Using corn for fuel and not for food causes food riots, hunger, and death. Using corn for fuel raises the prices of corn so that Columbian children are now languishing for Al Gore's mistake...Al Gore is now responsible for deaths all over the planet while he lives in posh homes and drives SUV's, his fleet of ships and airplanes do not run on air...but fuel, fossil fuel.

[MightyCarnac]

Nobody says corn is the optimum ethanol feedstock. The U.S. just happens to grow a hallova lot of corn (90 million acres worth). Cellulose (wood) based ethanol is not optimal either - you have to pressure cook the fibers in acid. It takes lots more energy & chemicals and there's more toxic waste and the yields are smaller. If it was easy everybody would be doing it. If you believe cellulose ethanol is kinder to the environment I suggest you show us the process and the stats.

[720moorhsum]

corn ethanol is ok but sugarcane ethanol yealds more fuel for less crop

[str8razer007]

Drill, baby, drill! Oil companies make pennies/gal. The Federal Government makes .40/gallon in tax. They didn't work for it. It isn't going to what they said it would but, they still steal it! When people start realizing that the only reason that we are having the problems we are having is due to Greedy, Self-Aggrandizing Government Officials lining their pockets and those of their friends with OUR money we will have a better Country!

[MusicTewns]

FUCK. THE. OIL. COMPANIES. And fuck them trying to own the world. We need a revolution against this bullshit that keeps us locked into thinking gas is our only option. Hydrogen cells are far more than adequate to run a car off and there bi-product is WATER. There has been thousands of companies to create a renewable resource for transportation means and all of them have been silenced. Stop ruining your health, your bank cards, and the planet!! FIGHT BACK AGAINST THE OIL COMPANIES.

[mrXnando]

ethanol functional and economical is derived from sugar cane, 10,000 square meters of sugarcane produces 7000 liters of ethanol with the manufacturing process faster and cheaper than corn ethanol than in 10000m ² produces 3500 liters of ethanol with an industrial process three times longer , Expensive and difficult. The ehtanol corn needs of thousands of acres, damaging or endearing the food or feed corn and its byproducts. It is impractical CORN ETHANOL

[AugustusLarch]

Ethanol isn't manufactured efficently. They need to chop the entire green plant not just the corn part. They spend money theshing and drying the corn when they can put it to mash green right on the site where it is grown. Then the filterted and fermented mash can be hauled to a centralized still. There's a lot of juice spent rehydrating and cooking the mash when it could ferment on it's own green and wet. The Ethanol people are failing on purpose.

[a10fjet]

teehee climate change... CO2 is good for the environment, dont be a zombie believing this shit.

[MrTwinsrule]

I can still get regular unleaded fuels............I will not bow to Obama!

[kiasoul10]

Fruck ethanol, natural gass dont be so stupid mike

[mikehanoo33]

Occidental's planned drilling of the Elk Hills doesn't only threaten the memory of the Kitanemuk. Environmentalists say a rare species of fox, lizard and the kangaroo rat would also be threatened by Oxy's plans. A lawsuit has been filed under the Endangered Species Act. But none of that has given pause to Occidental or the politician who helped engineer the sale of the drilling rights to the federally-owned Elk Hills. That politician is Al Gore.

[strawberEfieldz4ever]

"One of the reasons I made that mistake is that I paid particular attention to the farmers in my home state of Tennessee, and I had a certain fondness for the farmers in the state of Iowa because I was about to run for president."- Al Gore

[mikehanoo33]

Because the U.S. grows a lot of it, corn has become the primary crop used in making ­ethanol here. This is supposedly ­controversial, since corn is identified as a staple food in poverty-stricken parts of the world. But 87% of the U.S. corn crop is fed to animals. In most years, the U.S. sends close to 20% of its corn to other countries. While it is assumed that these exports could feed most of the hungry in the world, the corn is actually sold to wealthy nations to fatten their livestock.

[viper100200]

It's been 30 years and the ethanol industry still needs government money inorder to be viable. It increases the price of all other food and reduces mpg in vehicles. Stop wasting money on corn based ethanol. Any industry that has to be supported by tax payer money for 30 years and still cannot stand on it's own two feet after that much time should have funding removed.

[mikehanoo33]

@viper100200 >>>But it gets worse: among the major beneficiaries of our country's corn-loving ways is BP. The oil giant stands to gain $600 million through ethanol tax breaks this year alone.

An analysis from Environmental Working Group finds that BP will bring in millions through the Volumetric Ethanol Excise Tax Credit (or VEETC), a tax break for refiners that blend ethanol into gasoline. The tax credit has become yet another handout to oil companies.

[mikehanoo33]

@viper100200 >>>Also, fermenting the corn to alcohol results in more meat than if you fed the corn directly to the cattle. We can actually increase the meat supply by first processing corn into alcohol, which only takes 28% of the starch, leaving all the protein and fat, creating a higher-quality animal feed than the original corn.

[mikehanoo33]

While U.S. ethanol producers are like teenagers in the global biofuels market, Brazil is like a mature adult, approaching middle age. The Brazilian government began investing heavily in ethanol infrastructure and R&D more than 30 years ago. Now the country, which produces 45 percent of its own transportation fuel “on only 1 percent of its arable land,” is aggressively looking beyond both first-generation biofuels and its domestic market.

[SpecialKLSX]

Corn ethanol is the stepping stone for other bio fuels. Most ethanol production facilities are waiting PURELY for the hybrid seeds to be made so farmers can plant it, and get bumper crops year after year. Irregardless of a wet year, a dry year, a late summer, or an early fall. It wont' make sense to not have an unreliable source of fuel.

Also the food for tomorrow? LOOLLOLOLOLOLOL That corn is NOT for human consumption. It's for cattle. And cattle will eat the byproduct just fine.

[not2hye]

@SpecialKLSX u cant eat the by-product of ethanol, and any corn will work for making ethanol, apples, sugar, tomatoes even work...

[SpecialKLSX]

@not2hye Did you read what I said? "That corn is NOT for human consumption. It's for cattle. And cattle will eat the byproduct just fine."

How do I know this? There's a feedlot within 5 miles of the plant, that grows the corn / sorghum FOR the plant to process, then when the byrpoduct is removed from the "beer" stills they haul the byproduct back to their feedlot to mix in with the cattle's ration. The owner of the feedlot Knights Feedlot of Lyons Kansas has saved money now by doing this.

[not2hye]

@SpecialKLSX how exactly do they put the by-product back into feed?

[SpecialKLSX]

@not2hye You just dump it in. It goes from being corn kernels to Mash, or if dried i can even be bagged (chicken feed consistency)

Of course they measure out the feed in a semi accurate manner so they don't dump too much in. I dunno the exact nutritional value of it though I can say this, even my older brother has used it during the winter months to supplement his normal feeding regiment. Funny how they gained weight from it too.

[not2hye]

@SpecialKLSX when we make ethanol theres no by product, just a nasty liquid that left in the still

[mikehanoo33]

So does Uranium .

[mikehanoo33]

What Ethanol could do now ! • Completely eliminating the need for imported oil

• Creating literally millions of new non-exportable Green job opportunities

• Using a wide range of renewable resources to produce clean fuel for far less than gasoline

• Enabling every car in America to run on sustainable BioFuel

[heinzgero]

@mikehanoo33

-Creating jobs is only good if it makes sense. Would you mow your lawn with a gas engine or hire 100 guys with toenail clippers?

-It's clearly not clean fuel.

-Full gas tanks and empty stomachs is not sustainable. This biofuel comes from food-not food waste.

[mikehanoo33]

@heinzgero  > I would use alcohol in my lawnmower , Petroleum is toxic , it kills all life on this planet including humans , last time i checked vegetable oil (bio-diesel) and alcohol (Ethanol) were quite harmless to burn and are carbon neutral , and as far as the food supply goes its political , economic, and racist , it has nothing to do with supply , we pay farmers NOT to grow anything on millions of acres per year !!!

[heinzgero]

@mikehanoo33

Your just not a functional, reasoning, informed, person. Over.

[mikehanoo33]

@heinzgero > You mean I am not a brainwashed idiot that goes along with oil company propaganda , thanks , have a nice day :)

[not2hye]

@mikehanoo33 i wish theyd pay us to have empty fields, we cant grow anything, because the environmentalists wont let us have the water, because theyre worried about some non-native river slug!

[SpecialKLSX]

@not2hye Now that's a vaild point, theres no reason for you to irrigate so damn much. Its' lowering the water table and that's a FACT. What happens 20 years form now when you can't even get your well to pickup water? Then what? Oh that's right nwo you gotta get water shipped in so you can, I dunno.... DRINK IT???

Hell if you do it right you can turn a 80 acre stand into a cash cow by just putting CRP on it or some other grass and attracting game into there, and then renting it to hunters.

[not2hye]

@SpecialKLSX we need water, California is dying because the gates are closed, were im at, its nothing but brown dusty open fields

[SpecialKLSX]

@heinzgero The corn / grain they use for this is never meant for human, rather its' meant for animal consumption. And the byrpoduct IS edible.

[SpecialKLSX]

@mikehanoo33 Ehh, ethanol is fine and great, but what we really need is people to migrate from gasoline / Ethanol to Diesel. 20+mpg economy boost with just switching over to a Diesel engine is great. Especially in a pickup truck. (Long as the owner doesn't have to put up with or removes that stupid clean UREA emission BS that turns a 30MPG truck to something that gets 15 because of a soot burn cycle. It's been proven, look it up UREA removal and economy boost.)

I love gas, but Diesel is highMPG

[AugustusLarch]

@mikehanoo33

There's plenty of oil in North America. It's because of geopolitical wrangling that the oil in the states isn't hardly pumped anymore. The US takes the middle East oil so Europe can't have as much and they need it. The Americans and the British shaghighed the oil and limit there own production to drive up the price. It's unethical and illegal but the smokesceen is up . It worked on you.

[hint0122]

that would never work.

[jerry122063]

@mikehanoo33 that would be nice if we can grow enough corn considering how many barrels of oil the U.S. goes through in a day. we would have to use more crop land than we would use for food just to sustain our consumption of gas. we need to look at more better and more cost efficient fuel sources.

[steffentangen91]

@mikehanoo33 Ey man, U dont gain more energy then u use creating biofuel do u? I don't know if we do or not. Do u?

[mikehanoo33]

But oil companies arent the only ones who want to keep plug-in electric cars from gaining traction. According to Korthof, EVs would require far less maintenance and repairs than gasoline vehicles. EVs threaten not just the oil companies, but dealer service and parts functions, muffler shops, smog shops, brake shops, radiator shops, tune-up shops, engine specialty shops, gas stations, and so on,

[xBeAGoodPersonx]

So far to my knowledge, corn ethanol does not emit more harmful pollutants than gasoline. However it only emits 20% less. And cellulosic ethanol emits less harmful pollutants than both. A tremendously less amount. It must be then that we grow the right crop, the crop that yields the cleanest method of traveling in a car.

[mikehanoo33]

@xBeAGoodPersonx . When using pure alcohol, the reductions in all three of the major pollutants—carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxides, and ­hydrocarbons—are so great that, in many cases, the remaining emissions are unmeasurably small. Reductions of more than 90% over gasoline emissions in all categories have been routinely documented for straight alcohol fuel.

[mikehanoo33]

The real ecological nightmare is industrial agriculture. Switching to organic-style crop rotation will cut energy use on farms by a third or more: no more petroleum-based herbicides, pesticides, or chemical fertilizers. Fertilizer needs can be served either by applying the byproducts left over from the alcohol manufacturing process directly to the soil, or by first running the byproducts through animals as feed.

[mikehanoo33]

In fact, its oil that has a negative EROEI. Because oil is both the raw material and the energy source for production of gasoline, it comes out to about 20% negative. Thats just common sense; some of the oil is itself used up in the process of refining and delivering it (from the Persian Gulf, a distance of 11,000 miles in tanker travel).

[deltaalpha21074]

@QuantumQuacks yes ethanol does burn faster and takes more BUT BUT it is awesome back up tool should gasoline run low or shortages. 2nd it does not burn as dirty so more ECO friendly.

[deltaalpha21074]

BS just run 30% of the electricity from Nuclear reactors which does not use one micro ounce of PETROLEUM OR COAL to create electricity to run the Processing plants and all the tractors and trucks should use ETHANOL ENGINES>>>Reason USA is using constant OIL is the CREEPS yes CREEPS and CROOKS give tons and tons of MONEY to Politians to get """elected""...!

[deltaalpha21074]

We need more Corn Syrup in Alcohol fuels like E-85 not MOO MOO Wal-Mart shoppers...!!!

[deltaalpha21074]

Why so many fat people?????Corn Syrup in everything just look at FOOD PRODUCTS in USA all have Corn Syrup making your BUTT FAT. Sodas to plain old Cranberrry juice. And Hi-C drinks loaded...

[lorddreams469]

Cellulosic Ethanol is the way to go!

[RobinSpence100]

Why would corn that's natural be more dangerous/pollution, than another biofuel?

[oterj0]

It's a question of cost to cultivate and process. Corn is energy intensive to grow, pick, and refine, and at the end of the day, it uses just the kernels to produce ethanol with the cob and stalk being wasted. It's all this waste cellulose we grow that makes the production pollution high for ethanol. Cellulosic etoh works in the right direction on efficiency of feedstock use, but cellulose is harder to breakdown, so processing costs go through the roof. Time will tell if it's a winner or not.

[Hrothulf19]

Particulates in their study, isn't that different from aren't benzene, MTBE or any of the other carcinogens in gasoline?

[switchgrassfuel]

what an idiot.

[bio1guyver1]

this video is complete bull shit

[shazta88]

hemp and marijuana are LIFESAVERS.

[xpertech333]

Endoline is a toxic waste chemical left over by refining oil that was not good enough to burn as fuel in a combustion engine. But if you add a bunch of other toxic chemicals like MTBE and olifin's Guess what you get....... Gasoline. Of course gasoline is cheaper than ethanol it is just the leftovers from refining oil into plastics and pharmaceuticals . You could either store endoline it in a toxic waste dump or sell it as fuel . HMM if you were OPEC which would you choose to do?

[circutracer150]

Exactly. This "report" is Big Oil watching its own ass.

E85, whether Corn based or other, IS the short term future of fuel, and it IS far more efficient and clean burning than Gasoline.

They are LYING about it being more harmful to produce, as corn and wood simply ROTTING can provide the base chemicals for Ethanol, with ONE refining process needed after.

Fossil fuels WILL run out.

Corn, Sugar, Wood... these things are renewable.

[gunzkevin]

Well you get worse fuel economy on e85 than gasoline from mine and other's experience. But it is cheaper everywhere I go so yea this is a false video.

[REDPWR4EVR]

@circutracer150 umm what about all of the diesel that goes into producing E-85?

plow field=diesel tractor, plant field=diesel tractor, spray field=diesel sprayer, combine corn=diesel combine, truck corn=diesel truck, truck E-85=diesel truck, burning diesel releases ALOT of carbon and most all farm equiptment has ZERO emissions control.

[circutracer150]

@REDPWR4EVR THere are THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of farmers that use Gas burning equipment.

Make Ethanol more readily available at the cheap prices it comes with, and all of them would readily trade in their diesel equipment!

[REDPWR4EVR]

@circutracer150 Go look at new tractors THEY DON"T MAKE GAS'S THEY"RE ALL DIESEL! and no farmers will not go from diesel to gas because gas tractors burn at least 1/3 more fuel to do the same task becasue gas has a lower energy content than gas per gallon, also diesel engine are more efficient because they have a higher compression ratio, higher compression ratio= greater efficiency! go find a new combine, or a new diesel tractor over 100 HP, i challenge you!

[REDPWR4EVR]

@REDPWR4EVR also diesel engines last longer, you can get over 10,000 hours out of a diesel tractor without an overhaul versus a gas you'd be luck to get 5,000. diesel tractors also have far superior torque reserve which is highly desireable. and by the way, I FARM.

[REDPWR4EVR]

@REDPWR4EVR ok i made some type-o's, "gas has a lower energy content per gallon than diesel" and E-85 has an even lower energy content per gallon than regular gasoline. so if you went from diesel to E-85 the gallons of fuel needed to plow, plant ect would increase by at least 1/3 as #2 diesel has about 135,000 btu/gallon and E-85 has more in the ball park of 85,000. finally i mean "go find a tractor or combine over 100 HP thats gas" good luck, you'll need it

[switchgrassfuel]

I think some one is full of shit if they think gas burns cleaner than ethanol, they use ethanol in some cook stoves that can be used in side because it burns way cleaner than gas. I am sick of people making up shit that can be proven or dis proven with simple tests.

[Matanjun1970]

What I don't understand Dude

[drtydave13]

Cannabis makes fuel, food, clothes, paper. Virtually everything we need can be cultivated from the Hemp plant.

Why are we still arguing about this clean fuel crap when Hemp is still completely misunderstood. Legalize it and solve every problem we ever had with the economy. Do it like it was back in the day when Lords had to devote 1 acre of land for the cultivation of the Marijuana plant under the Queen's orders.

[vash465]

shut the hell up already!! no one cares!! theres a reson why its illegal

[drtydave13]

and what is the reason exactly?

there is no evidence it does any harm.

Nobody has ever died from Marijuana and besides that you ignorant fool do you not realize the potential of hemp?

[fyrefox4289]

There isn't enough THC in hemp to have much effect. You're mixing up industrial hemp and marijuana. Hemp growing is already legalized, and I read on the North Dakota extension--if I remember correctly--that they are promoting its growth for things you're talking about.

[drtydave13]

You're right, I was mixing them up... And it really wasn't helping my arguement. Thanx for clarifying it for me.

I didn't know about North Dakota that's good to hear though.

[mikehanoo33]

@fyrefox4289 Hemp is way cool as well as cannabis , very natural and earth friendly , but some rich boys decided they could make more money from cannabis if it remained illegal , the war on drugs is a shame , and Canada can legally grow hemp , but not Americans ,though we can buy it , very screwy !Hemp makes great bio fuel !

[xpertech333]

yeah the reason its illegal is because the cotton industry lobbied and labeled it a drug.Hemp would have destroyed the cotton industry. Just like prohibition allowed just enough time to set up a gasoline infrastructure so we could stop using ethanol as the primary fuel that cars were originally designed to run on. So Vash you shut the hell up and stop being ignorant. Ignorant = uninformed.

[circutracer150]

You are right. But hemp is FAR to easy to grow, and therefore cannot be properly regulated and taxed, therefore the USA will NEVER legalize it!

I don't even smoke the shit, am NOT old enough to have been around for the Hippie days, and I STILL know Hemp would solve a shitload of the problems we encounter, while being an EXTREMELY renewable resource!

But easy solutions are always the least profitable for those in power.

[MarTin3Z420]

corn was made by man, its far from the food of the future, its not good

[xKCBEx]

Corn ethanol has one big advantage, economics. Using corn ethanol ensures profitability for farmers, which means stepping back on corn/maize subsidies can occur in the US. Although they might want the subsidies, the alternate use, which it should be noted is easy to implement would make it harder to justify the subsidy. Good for economics, bad for people, wanna guess which side wins in the end? if you guessed people, you're wrong.

[xxstealerxx]

can't* sorry

[xxstealerxx]

ca't we use hydrogen? not the dangerous type of hydrogen! I've heard that hydrogen is used in some power plants and it is reuseable. Why can't we use that for cars? Itse reuseable, cheap and doesn't harm the enviorment. The only problem would pretty much be that a water bottle would cost like 5$ lol

[BinkieMcFartnuggets]

This is kind of like how we thought margarine was healthier than butter. But we should have known about ethanol, margarine is delicious, but corn is never the answer!

[Legatus1TTA1]

Methane (without sulfer added, genius) is the answer.

[Craydon]

Here's an idea. Let's stop burning things for fuel. We aren't cavemen anymore are we?

[Jambando]

What do you suggest we do for fuel?

I understand wind energy, geothermal, etc. But what should we do right now?

[Craydon]

Electricity. It almost doesn't matter what you do to generate the energy so long as it's a non-destructive, renewable method. The real trick is storage and transport, there needs to be work done on batteries etc and delivering the energy we generate over long distances without loosing so much energy.

[MarTin3Z420]

cannabis plant is more usefull to man then all other plants combined, and you can make4 fuelwith it, and that plant is illegal...says alot about the people who makes the laws

[Ranterd]

what about the humanitarian costs of taking land and farmers out of food production?

Aren't enough people starving already?

[spence111]

Hemp is the best choice for biofuel hands down. In agricultural terms, the crop can grow in many climates, has a faster growth rate than many other crops and does not need to have land cleard to grow it. In fact, the crop will leave the ground better than when it satrted.

But in my opinion, I think we should seek out an alternative to fuel that relies on the energy within the bonds of hydrocarbons. The ony reason that oil is so good at what it does is because time & pressure made it that way.

[MarTin3Z420]

you are well informed

[AntiVenomFangX]

YES!!!! this is what I've been talking about all along!! Ethanol makes food prices go up and adds to this mess of an economy. I'm so glad there's a reason to stop making ethanol. i don't like gas but using a large food source for fuel makes no sense. its all about that hydrogen baby!

[universal12truth]

hydrogen makes sense

[Arebum]

We use corn for too much anyway.

[Richardgwm]

The ultimate goal is algal ethanol/diesel.

[DanTheMan9886]

if we could mass produce engines that ran on water we could reinvent the power source for the future, or we could use solar technology!

[Miniclip420]

oh...

[KFDonny]

why not use fiberglas air-cooled engines that runs on water?

[jkand]

old news

[graasroots]

hemp is the solution!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!­!!!!

[Jebovsek]

what about anti-matter fuel? :D (i'm joking..)

[insanity54]

Dang. Lets go with hydrogen.

[DanTheMan9886]

one word 'Hindenburg'

[insanity54]

Haha! Hmm... very true...

[tienesloscojones]

how is corn the food of the future?

[Charles2337]

xD!

[shyney93]

Think how much land would be needed to grow enough corn to produce enough ethanol to drive every single car in the world. We'd have to chop down the entire Amazon and convert every inch of land into growing space for it.

[andid]

Corn, the tribe has spoken.

It's time for you to go.

[everclear66]

no surprise there, whatever gore invests in has got to be bad for the envirnoment

[sockpuppetsfromhell]

I tried to bring this up in my Environmental Science class and got shot down by my teacher. As someone who has brewed beer for a decade, I was able to show how much CO2 is released just from fermentation alone. Using corn, as a whole, is certainly a bad trade. Cellulose would be a good idea though.

[Tenetri]

Informative

[Etimos]

this will be suppressed and denounced by the Corn Conglomerate Lobby.

Anyway, good news, but really should have been common sense. Eat the corn, make fuel from the stalks, not vice versa. I'm surprised it took a team of legitimate scientists and researchers to figure that out. Sad state of human civilization on display.

[ssj7warrior]

@Etimos Um, corn lacks Niacin and without it there isn't much use for it besides fuel. It causes skin problems and all kinds of messed mental problems from eating it.

[Etimos]

@ssj7warrior Yeah, that's why dozens of mesoamerican and south american civilizations lived on it almost exclusively for thousands of years. Building those cities and temples and pyramids were all just the result of mental problems and chronic rashes, that makes perfect sense.

You'll find that the skin and mental problems are from the chemicals and pesticides american corn farmers use, not from the corn.

Also, corn is one of the most nutritious crops known to man.

Learn, then speak.

[mikehanoo33]

@Etimos Also, fermenting the corn to alcohol results in more meat than if you fed the corn directly to the cattle. We can actually increase the meat supply by first processing corn into alcohol, which only takes 28% of the starch, leaving all the protein and fat, creating a higher-quality animal feed than the original corn.

[Etimos]

@mikehanoo33 well, I'm afraid this isn't quite the case. Fermenting the corn doesnt produce more meat when consumed, it just removes some of the nutritional value and results in less fat cover developing in the animal. Plants dont produce fats, they produce starch and oils. Animals produce fat.

Because the resulting meat has less fat, it is of lower quality, being less juicy, less tender, and less nutritious in general.

Of course in Canada, we finish our cattle with Barley, not Corn. More flavor

[mikehanoo33]

@Etimos I am sorry etimos , but if you want to argue the case for more oil production and refute facts I dont know what to tell you , get off the oil slick and get on the bio fuel solution !

[Etimos]

@mikehanoo33 Huh? WTF are you talking about?

You came to me talking about fermented corn feed. How the fuck does that say I'm for more oil production? Pick a damn subject. You said fermented corn feed is better because it destroys starches and leaves more protein by weight. I disagreed because it's the starches that boost the animal's body fat and results in a higher meat grade.

I'm a Meat Cutter from a farming community, so trust me on this, I know what makes a good steak.

[mikehanoo33]

@Etimos And you do know cows were never meant to eat corn , and when you make it into a mash its easier for them to digest , also we had plenty of big cows at one time in north America , they were called buffalo , and what did buffalos eat , grass , not corn , it makes them taste much better , and of course we are more concerned with how are meat tastes, then saving earth using bio fuels .Or other forms of reusable energy .

[Etimos]

@mikehanoo33 .... You dont know much about Canada, do you? Go check out a map, we're pretty easy to find. Second largest country on earth, due north of the US. We have them up here too, but they're BISON, not buffalo.

Cattle do not need help digesting corn, or any other grain. Corn is already easy to digest (which is why humans are able to digest it, since we lack the cellulase enzyme otherwise required to digest plant matter).

Cattle in the US are fed corn because it's cheap, not tasty.

[mikehanoo33]

@Etimos Also, fermenting the corn to alcohol results in more meat than if you fed the corn directly to the cattle. We can actually increase the meat supply by first processing corn into alcohol, which only takes 28% of the starch, leaving all the protein and fat, creating a higher-quality animal feed than the original corn.

[Etimos]

@mikehanoo33 I live not 100 miles from a commercial BISON farm, and when i worked for the local meat shop, we processed bison for various cuts. It tastes very similar to beef, despite the diet, and the chief difference is that since bison meat isn't as fatty, it's much more dry.

Cattle are not raised and fed on a diet of corn, or any other grain, They are raised in a field and fed grass. They are FINISHED on grain for the last three months.

Canada uses barley for this because it tastes better.

[mikehanoo33]

@Etimos The majority of beef cattle in Ontario are finished on a corn (maize)-based diet, whereas Western Canadian beef is finished on a barley-based diet. . Research by the Ontario government claims that, while Alberta beef producers have organized a successful marketing campaign promoting Alberta's barley-fed beef, corn-fed and barley-fed beef have a similar cost, quality, and taste.[4]

[Etimos]

@mikehanoo33 And once again in your little bio-fuel story you're forgetting the detrimental effect intensive bio-fuel farming will have on soil conditions. Corn, for example, is an extremely intensive crop that needs to be rotated or extensively fertilized (relying heavily on oil for that) so as not to exhaust the soil. Biofuel cannot save the planet. We simply dont have the arable land for it.

As for the EV, Chevy and other manufacturers are already producing electric cars again, as of 2011.

[Etimos]

Long story short, we dont need biofuel, and even if we did, it's a completely unrealistic goal. We dont have the land, and without oil, we cant cover the fertilizer and energy costs.

We have the technology right now to make solar and geothermal power viable, and new advances in thermoelectric materials is even allowing us to transform heat directly into electricity without the need for turbines.

Forget about Ethanol. It will never, ever be a viable commercial resource.

[mikehanoo33]

@Etimos Of its nearly half a billion acres of prime cropland, the U.S. uses only 72.1 million acres for corn in an average year. The land used for corn takes up only 16.6% of our prime cropland, and only 7.45% of our total agricultural land.

[mikehanoo33]

@Etimos The real ecological nightmare is industrial agriculture. Switching to organic-style crop rotation will cut energy use on farms by a third or more: no more petroleum-based herbicides, pesticides, or chemical fertilizers. Fertilizer needs can be served either by applying the byproducts left over from the alcohol manufacturing process directly to the soil, or by first running the byproducts through animals as feed.

[Etimos]

@mikehanoo33 As for Biofuel, it's NOT a solution. In order to produce enough ethanol to replace our current demand for oil, we would need to completely revamp agriculture across the world. The problem with that is twofold.

1) Currently, agriculture depends on oil. Without oil, the world has enough arable land to produce food for 4 billion people. The world's population is 7 billion.

Fermenting wastes for bio-fuel is an extremely intensive and soil-exhausting "solution" that will never work.

[mikehanoo33]

@Etimos But perhaps more important than EROEI is the energy return on fossil fuel input. Using this criterion, the energy returned from alcohol fuel per fossil energy input is much higher. In a system that supplies almost all of its energy from biomass, the ratio of return could be positive by hundreds to one.

[Etimos]

@mikehanoo33

2) Even if it were possible to produce food and biofuel from the same crops without completely exhausting the topsoil and rendering vast areas of arable land worthless (as we did in the 20s and 30s with over-farming and aggressive agricultural methods), we simply cannot physically produce enough ethanol that way to meet oil demand. We dont have enough arable land.

Furthermore, Ethanol produces less energy when burnt than oil fuels, so you need EVEN MORE OF IT to meet demand.

[mikehanoo33]

@Etimos The most exhaustive study on ethanols EROEI, by Isaias de Carvalho Macedo, shows an alcohol energy return of more than eight units of output for every unit of input—and this study accounts for everything right down to smelting the ore to make the steel for tractors.

[Etimos]

@mikehanoo33 What you need to do is get off the internal combustion bandwagon entirely.

Right now, TODAY, we have at our disposal completely green zero-emission methods of energy production that are 100% capable of replacing oil demand, if we just invest in them. Wind and Wave power are unreliable, but Solar and Geothermal power are both reliable and realistic, thanks to recent technical breakthroughs in both fields.

We have new electric cars. We just need the 'green' power stations.

[mikehanoo33]

@Etimos A meat cutter eh , well I guess you would know about steaks alright , but you still are way to full of yourself and angry to have a rational debate with , once again we could use corn but there are many other more efficient crops such as sugar cane , which the Brazilians have proven works , since the mid 70's , over 85% of there cars now run on it , I know you probably have some oil company propaganda you will spew at me , let er rip , meat boy .

[mikehanoo33]

@Etimos And the electric car worked fine with a NIMH battery , but GM sold the patent and idea to Chevron Texaco in 2001 , who then turned around and sued anyone using the NIMH battery in an electric car , which included toyota , and Wind turbines are a great form of clean free energy , as well as solar and geo thermal , right on !

[mikehanoo33]

@Etimos I have have proven every one of your lame staements wrong, etimos please do us a favor and do just a little research before you post your oil company propaganda ! Most of us would just love to see bio fuels dominate the market , as they do in Brazil , cleaner , cheaper and no toxic oil spills ready to destroy the planet .

[Etimos]

@mikehanoo33 You told me how many acres the US uses to grow corn, and that ontario finishes with corn instead of barley. Exactly what do you think you've destroyed?

Are you honestly so deluded you think 72 million acres of corn production can possibly meet the US demand for biofuel? Do the math on that one and see just how much ethanol that much corn will produce. You'll find it's not even close, not even if you double or triple it.

As for "oil company propaganda", stick it up your ass, idiot.

[mikehanoo33]

@Etimos Even if, for alcohol production, we used only what the USDA considers prime flat cropland, we would still have to produce only 368.5 gallons of alcohol per acre to meet 100% of the demand for transportation fuel at todays levels. Corn could easily produce this level—and a wide variety of standard crops yield up to triple this. Plus, of course, the potential alcohol production from cellulose could dwarf all other crops.

[Etimos]

@mikehanoo33 Ok, so you've met the demand for transportation fuel by farming an exhaustive crop occupying all of the prime flat cropland in the US. Now what about power station demands? In home demands? Naval demands? Aircraft? And what about the other three harvest seasons when you cant grow corn in that field without exhausting the nutrients in the soil? Suddenly your ethanol production is reduced by at least 50% because of crop rotation. Now where do you grow your food crop?

[Etimos]

And what about export? Do you expect this entire industry to sustain only domestic demand? What about greenhouse gas emissions? You do realize that Ethanol produces less energy by volume than gasoline, so you must burn more of it to achieve the same effect, right?

So now you've got 150,000,000 cars on the road burning just as much fuel producing just as much CO2, plus demand for power, plus the fuel and fertilizer demands for the agriculture business you've now turned into your fuel business.

[Etimos]

Do you have any idea how much fuel a tractor requires to plow and maintain a field of corn, or how much fertilizer the crop requires? How much energy it takes to irrigate the field? To process the crop at harvest time? To say nothing of the deficit of having to do exactly the same operation with exactly the same costs but no fuel production during the off-crop-cycle to restore the soil nutrition, so you need to work out at least triple the cost for a single harvest of corn.

[Etimos]

Now let me put YOU in the spotlight, mister "Oh you and your oil propaganda";

Why are you so invested in corn that you wont even consider the far more viable possibility of Geothermal and Solar power, which have made huge advances in recent years, and are infinitely more practical for not only meeting global energy demands, but also for eliminating exhaust gasses and other harmful wastes?

What is so wrong with thermoelectric blocks producing infinite, zero-emission power for electric cars?

[mikehanoo33]

@Etimos Hey etimos I love solar and geo thermal , but the oil companies bought the patent to the NIMH battery in 2001 , check documentry (Who killed the electric car) for this fact , by the way it was Chevron texaco who did it , and they will only allow the smaller nimh batteries to be sold , and geo thermal is limited to certain geographic areas , but most execelent .

[Etimos]

@mikehanoo33 That was in 2001. You really need to modernize your sources. You DO realize that Chevy is mass-producing their own electric car, with superior range and stats to GM's old EV3 right? 400km on a single charge. A DECADE is a very long time in terms of technology. Chev isn't alone, either; other companies are starting to introduce their own fully electric vehicles now.

Simply put, as of 2011 or 2012, there is no need for ethanol any more. We have the technology to go beyond combustion.

[mikehanoo33]

@Etimos I wish that were true but allI hear from the car companies is , next year , later this year , blah blah blah , and what is this great new battery ivention you talk about , the cars being sold here now like the Xebra still show a lead acid battery on there web sight , maybe a 40 mile range , compared to 150 miles with the old NIMH batteries .

[faitita2005]

@mikehanoo33 car companies are owned by petro companies, even battery's companies are owned by texaco, shell. i wonder why ??, get your facts straight

[mikehanoo33]

@faitita2005 Yeah I believe your right , the big car manufactures have been owned by the same group of slimy sleazy criminals , Look at how GM bought the NIMH battery from Stan Ovshinsky and then sold it to Chevrontexaco only to be buried , GM only built the EV1 because of Calif's green car law , which the feds brought suit against and killed , crazy stuff !

[mikehanoo33]

@Etimos And because there are no good electric cars out there , the Rav4 EV which was shut down by Chevron texaco in 2003 are selling for MORE NOW then they did new , because they have the superior NIMH battery in them , sorry electric is still being supressed by big oil .

[Etimos]

@mikehanoo33

Well there's your big cock-up right there. You think Big Oil is responsible? Fuck no. The Electric car is being suppressed by CAR MANUFACTURING COMPANIES! Electric cars require almost no spare parts, no gaskets, no spark plugs, no timing belts, no water pumps, nothing, just four wheels and their related suspension and braking components.

Spare parts is a multi-billion dollar industry. Car companies dont want to lose that.

PS: Should we NOT do it because big oil is against it?

[Etimos]

Aha. I see you already mentioned that further down.

My objection stands, however. So you suggest that we SHOULDNT invest in electric cars and zero-emissions power just because the oil companies are against them? Well how well do you think that bodes for your precious little ethanol plan, then? Do you really think the oil companies would tolerate a threat to their industry like Ethanol if they actually thought for two seconds that ethanol was actually VIABLE as a replacement fuel?

[simontimon2]

By that logical argument wouldn't big coal support electric cars since most of the electricity in the US is produced by the burning of coal.

[mikehanoo33]

@simontimon2 >Those of us who know energy policy know there is absolutely no difference whatsoever – the same people are still turning the power knobs in Washington: oil, coal, the military, and the AIPAC.

[simontimon2]

The point is simple gasoline by weight contains 80 times more energy then the best battery.

Current battery technology is not ready for electric cars.

[mikehanoo33]

@simontimon2 The point is simple Gasoline is TOXIC and must be phased out as a fuel , its destroying the earth , how stupid are we ? We have had clean fuels since the inception of cars and the evil petroleum boys decided to play dirty , and have just gotten bigger and more powerful , I dont think they know how to transition now and pull the plug on this three headed monster !

[simontimon2]

Gasoline is not toxic, it comes from the earth.

[mikehanoo33]

@Etimos solution will vastly improve soil fertility each year.

The real ecological nightmare is industrial agriculture. Switching to organic-style crop rotation will cut energy use on farms by a third or more: no more petroleum-based herbicides, pesticides, or chemical fertilizers. Fertilizer needs can be served either by applying the byproducts left over from the alcohol manufacturing process directly to the soil, or by first running the byproducts through animals as feed.

[Etimos]

@mikehanoo33 PS, have you been down-thumbing my comment at the top here? I dont see it up there any more. If so, that's a dick move.

[mikehanoo33]

@Etimos Oil companies have prevented the development and sale of entirely electric cars by restricting the availability of high capacity batteries. Korthof says General Motors first bought the rights to NiMH batteries from Toyota and Panasonic, then sold those patents to oil giant Texaco, which then merged with Chevron. According to Korthof, Chevron then used its the patent to kill Toyotas RAV4-EV program.

[mikehanoo33]

@Etimos Myth #3: Ethanols an Ecological ­Nightmare!

Youd be hard-pressed to find another route that so elegantly ties the solutions to the problems as does growing our own energy. Far from destroying the land and ecology, a permaculture ethanol solution will vastly improve soil fertility each year.

[mikehanoo33]

@Etimos Clean sustainable energy is a big step in the right direction , bio fuels are not the only solution , but as Brazil has proven can be used for over 85% of there cars , which normaly cause most of the pollution in a big city , and this mess in the gulf would never have happened if we were doing the right thing .

[djancak]

this is old news

[ishwie]

this is new news-- just published this week!

[djancak]

actually no

[kloza0]

actually yes. google doi # 10.1073/pnas.0812835106

[djancak]

wrong.