Great win for Shavers, but people, especially the bangitslo guy, are getting on Norton's case too much. Norton was no Ali or Frazier, but the match with Ali was not just luck (Ali was barely able to beat him back) and it's not the only reason he's admired (he won the belt under circumstances that had nothing to do with his fight with Ali). Norton was aging by this point, and his chin was always his weakest quality.
ken had so many basic assets,strength,condition,etc.that it took really good fighters to expose his liabilities.in this particular case,lack of mobility,and general defensive skills,i.e.boband weave,slips,stops,shoulder rolls etc..you need everything to beat a monster like Earnie.you cant just stand there and trade shots with a wrecking ball like shavers
I would have to disagree with you on that comment..shavers was not just an ordinary fighter he was probably the hardest puncher of his era many great fighters who could punch avoided him simply because they knew he had a punchers chance...as for Ali he's the greatest that ever lived he was the kind of guy that made great punchers look ordinary in an era where such a term like ordinary was a rarity becuase of all the talent that existed.
Ken Norton was silly to think that he was Muhammad Ali. I seriously don't see where he intended to go with this plan. Trying to slug with Earnie Shavers? Very few men did that and survived.
@MrRoyalFatness yea i wish he would have gained the title at least once,he was simply a cool guy who was skilled max..not many guys beat jerry quarry,i think,except when he got old,most or near all his losses were to champs.
I USE TO BOX, ONE THING U LEARN U STAY AWAY FROM THE POWER PUNCHER U MOVE TOWARD ERNIES RIGHT HAND..SO U STAY ON ERNIES LEFT SIDE.U ALSO HIT HIM FROM A DISTANT
Norton's son, Ken Jr. was at ringside and later described his sobering disillusionment when he realized his father wasn't indestructible. Guess he wasn't in Caracas for the Foreman bout. Marvis Frazier spoke of the exact same feeling when he realized that his father wasn't clowning around against Foreman in Jamaica. Hard to pinpoint which punch sent Norton downhill, there were so many of them it might have been the cumulative effect leading to the first knockdown.
Would love to have seen him go up against Foreman...it probably would have been more brutal to watch then when Foreman fought Lyle. I think his chances would have been better simply because he was more elusive then Lyle. Although Frazier could punch he just didn't have the power to overwhelm a big guy like George. Shavers on the other hand did...it would have been a hell of a fight....
I love watching this guy fight he was a killer like Sonny Liston although i think he hit much harder then Liston in his prime he did what heavyweights are suppose to do put em away...Ernie Shavers is truly one of the greatest....
I saw Earnie Shavers in Las Vegas at a memorabilia shop, I didn't know who he was, now I know haha. Awesome stuff, knocking out a name like Norton is a big deal.
Just another ordinary fighter that people thought was Great because he beat Ali. Ali had a HABIT of making ordinary fighters look good (Doug Jones, Karl Mildenberger,Ken Norton, Leon Spinks) and making Great Fighters look bad (Liston, Foreman, Lyle, Quarry,) Go figure.
@bangitslo What a stupid thing to say. Norton went 15 rounds with holmes and lost by a small split decision in one of the best fights of the 70s. Not forgetting his split decision loss to ali in '76 was very controversial.
Yeah, it's a product of underestimation. But none of those fighters you list managed to escape defeat from Ali. Twice in the case of Norton. I wouldn't call Norton 'ordinary' btw. He was just bad against punchers. Styles make fights. But Spinks, the rematch showed it was obviously Ali just going through the motions.
@bangitslo i agree. Not a super skilled fighter but "Muhammad Ali, Joe Bugner, Larry Holmes, Randall "Tex" Cobb, Ron Lyle and Ken Norton all credited Shavers as being the hardest puncher they had ever faced in the ring." He is widely considered the hardest puncher of all time by the press.
He started boxing late (22 years old) and maybe that explains why he is doesn´t have a great techique.
Norton ducked fighting Shavers for 7 years. This fight proved why. The Acorn destroyed him. No contest!! They could fight once a week and Norton would kiss the canvas each time.
@finetubs Dude Foreman knocked Lyle out in one of the most brutal heavyweight bouts of all time. It did not go the distance, did not go to the judges. It wasa KO.
@XionComrade u no wat bro?? he was shit.. he never cut take a beating .. he never fouhgt guys who really gave him a beating .. 2 hes body like foreman det 2 frazier.. shaves got KO Before he even got 1 good hit in.. while if it was Foreman.. quarry.. wel get fuckt up foreman was a inside fihgter going 2 u body.. and just strat killing it and foreman had sum of the crazyet uppercuts ever seen.. in boxing..quarra was a lucky kid.. if he ever Fouhgt sombody like foreman he would got his ass kickt
I don't believe that Holmes was afraid of Tyson, but after the fight he said he didn't want a rematch. That he knew Tyson was too tough. I think early on, Holmes didn't take Tyson seriously, and he got tagged with a right.
@JGmartinezJr He didn't do that against Foreman. Foreman just stalked him and knocked him out. Here, he has the worst strategy ever. Lay on the ropes and let a puncher pound on you.
LOOK AT THE FOEMAN VS KEN NORTEN FIHGT WEN NORTEN WAS DOWN he dident even get up.. look at the shaves and ken norten fihgt he went up and wasent even dizzy or stun he just neddet 30 scends and he was ready again.. while ... IN FOEMANS MATCH KEN NORTEN WAS ALMOST OUT LOOK AT IT USELF IF U DONT BELIVE ME!!! .. muhammed ali said shaves was the hardest hitter thats a lie.. the reson he says that is becuse Foeman really never got Any good shots in 2 muhammed alis Head or Body While shaves Det!!
PPL SAY SHAVES WAS ALOT HARDER HITTER TEN FOEMAN THATS BULL SHIT!!! the reson shaves won 1st agienst ken norten so fast is becuse.. he just stratet going 2 the body if foeman det the same think as Shaves ken norten well be down all time Shaves was not the hardstet hitter ..IT WAS FOEMAN!!!!!!!!!!
why do ppl say ernie Shaves was the hardset hitter he dident even hit that ard.. ??? FOEMAN WAS ALOT HARDER TEN SHAVES shaves was just like Sonny liston Foeman was Alot Hard hitter ten Shaves
@BunBRIP Larry Holmes said Shavers hit harder than Mike Tyson - and Tyson was a hard hitter himself. Getting hit by Shavers, he said, was like getting hit by a truck.
@JGmartinezJr go fuck uself Like a truck.. u motherfucker shaves was a hard hitter but never as hard as a truck u stupid bitch.. shaves was a hard hitter yes but still it was not inposiboil 2 take those hits Ali took them Larry took them.. I WEL TAKE THEM.. U STUPID FAGGET
@BunBRIP Wow, what am immtaure joke of a person you are. Can't handle the truth without name-calling. I trust Holmes' word over some internet troll such as yourself, he fought both men and as such, I believe HIM. Lemme guess. you were one of Shavers' opponents and he knocked you senseless, is that why you hate him so much?
@JGmartinezJr larry holmes said shaves was a harder hitter.. oki.. Larry holmes also said.. i never been afraid of no 1 .. but Agienst tyson i was so Afraid i dident even wannet 2 fihgt.. but i still det it.. A OLD ALI.. Took the puchinges and hits by shaves .. and WON THE FIHGT.. While shaves was a harder hitter ten tyson.. While A OLD Larry holmes got hes ass beat by tyson who was a hard hitter 2 not like shaves but still a hard hitter he went down and never came back up!!!
@BunBRIP No, Holmes never said he was afraid of Tyson... show me an actual source where he said he was afraid of Tyson.. I have read his bio and he never said that he was scared... if anything, he felt he would have KO'd Tyson had his arm not gotten caugth in the upper rope while trying to throw his patented uppercut... please do some reseasrch before commenting.. you sound like an uneducated fool.
@JGmartinezJr MOTHERFUCKER.. HE WAS AFRAID OF TYSON HE SAID HIMSELF U A THE FOOL U PIG FUCKING SHIT HOLE ..TYSON KICKT HISS ASS ..U SEEN HIS BIO..WEL FAGGET ..ALOT OF BOXERS A LIYING AND NOT TELLING THE TRUTH JUST LIKE TYSON U FAGGET I.. KICK U ASS. HOPE I MEET U 1 DAY..U PIG
@BunBRIP No, it's not that you don't want to read it, it's that you do not want to admit you lied when you claimed Larry said he was afraid of Tyson... but that's OK.. Holmes > Tyson and it's not eve close.
@BunBRIP I hear that Holmes went into that fight just for the money, knowing he was going to get destroyed. After a huge layoff that occurred in the worst part of his entire career, no way would he have stood a chance. But he rallied and still fought a good fight.
@XionComrade Hey fagget wasent it u who dident wanna talk 2 me.. and now u back.. in my face .. talking 2 me like a littel Dog?? wat up Dog.. u wont sum food.. FUCK OFF U FAGGET.. dont got time 2 bitches like u..
@XionComrade u no wat bro?? he was shit.. he never cut take a beating .. he never fouhgt guys who really gave him a beating .. 2 hes body like foreman det 2 frazier.. shaves got KO Before he even got 1 good hit in.. while if it was Foreman.. quarry.. wel get fuckt up foreman was a inside fihgter going 2 u body.. and just strat killing it and foreman had sum of the crazyet uppercuts ever seen.. in boxing..quarra was a lucky kid.. if he ever Fouhgt sombody like foreman he would got his ass kickt
@BunBRIP didnt 4man say he avoided quarry cuz he was a slick boxer?He fought lyle and decisioned him over 12,and took a lot less from lyle than ali did for most of the fight or 4man did
@finetubs What fight were you watching brother ? Foreman KO'd Lyle in five rounds...its probably one of the most dramatic and brutal slug fest in heavyweight history both men traded shots both men tasted the canvas it was phenomenal...Foreman took a lot more punishment in 5 rounds against lyle then he did from ali in 8 with Ali he was just more exhausted then anything....Ali gave lyle an ass whoppin for 11 rounds and TKO'd em...These guys were monsters real freaks. The Klitchkos? what a joke....
@Nanaman12345 PPL SAY SHAVES WAS ALOT HARDER HITTER TEN FOEMAN THATS BULL SHIT!!! the reson shaves won 1st agienst ken norten so fast is becuse.. he just stratet going 2 the body if foeman det the same think as Shaves ken norten well be down all time Shaves was not the hardstet hitter ..IT WAS FOEMAN!!!!!!!!!!
What a fighter. Shavers would have killed the bitch ass klitschkos. Norton got caught early with the left hand. I think maby Shavers could have beaten Mike Weaver for the WBA title, too
@finetubs yeah so what he was past his prime, What is known is Ali and many others said Shavers hit harder than anyone. Tyson said Ruddick kicked like an friggin mule. Problem with big punchers are that a lot don't have great chins..
When Norton froze up, as he often did when he faced huge punchers, he neglected his very underestimated jab. It cost him dearly here against an on-rushing, aggressive power puncher like Earnie Shavers.
That's one way to say it. Another would be the that he got froze and got destroyed by the only legitimate punchers he ever faced. One of the great enigmas of that era of heavy-weights. Norton was a killer against anyone who couldn't bang. Ironically, he looked like Duane Bobick against himself every time he stepped up.
@jeffmacke I don't know why people say Norton was Hell on boxers. He got beaten easily by Holmes, although the judges had it close.
It wasn't bangers that gave him trouble, it was guys that moved forward, and particularly could throw a left hook. He liked to fight from range and would pull is head down and back. If you weren't moving in, you couldn't take advantage of it. If you moved in and hooked, he couldn't shift weight quickly enough and got pounded.
Norton was a glorious fighter. He suffered the most glorious knockouts of almost any heavyweight. He went down hard, stayed hurt, and got knocked out like a dog time and time again. You really have to admire his showmanship. You never felt cheated by his knockout losses.
He actually got badly hurt by a right in this fight, not a left. Luckily, it was Ken Norton who never really could recover from being hurt, so he got hit plenty more. A fine knockout loss.
Norton never could hang with a big puncher. Making friends with Frazier was the best move Norton ever made because it saved him from having to fight Frazier and get a guaranteed knockout loss.
When a guy couldn't crush a grape with his punches (Bobick, Ali) is when Norton was at his best. But against punchers like Foreman, Shavers, Cooney, etc., Norton always came out a KO loser.
Norton was over rated. It was proven here. They GAVE him the WBC title when Spinks rematched Ali. He couldn't take a punch. Foreman KOd him in 2. Shavers KOd him in 1. Cooney KOd him in 1. He never fought Frazier or Ron Lyle. His best moment was his first and only defense
vs Larry Holmes. Look up the 15th round. It was a classic. Norton's whole career was based on his one win against Ali.
Yeah but he beat Ali at least twice. That fight in `76 at Yankee stadium Kenny should have won the heavyweight championship right there. Giving him the title in `78 was only an attempt to make up for what was stolen from him.
He was hell on a boxer like Ali or Holmes. He did have trouble with the bigger punchers.
@ExplosiveThinMan ---u r right on again, Thin Man. Norton was robbed in 3d Ali fight. Shavers was one of the hardest punchers ever, and Norton had trouble w/ the big punchers (though he was a pretty good puncher himself). By the way, what yr was this fight? Ref should never have allowed it to continue after 1st knockdown
That's because Norton never did well against sluggers. His style was great for guys that were either boxers (i.e. Ali and Holmes) or guys that didn't hit hard (i.e. Young).
Dude, Norton was NOT recovering from that ass whippin. They could've given him standing 80 count. Did you see his legs when he tried to get up?? He was DONE......
why cant u believe it? the 70s and 80s produced the greats the heavy weight division now a days are a joke and when the best fight its always to late....hollyfield v tyson and lewis v tyson to name just two.
lol....ken norton and earnie shaves though would not be unfied champs today....i think vitali or wlad would both beat them..though earnie would stand a chance with wlad given wlads slightly shaky chin....though his chin is less shakey then nortons was...
remember norton fought 2 of the biggest punchers in heavyweight history. he was shot when he fought cooney so i dont really count that one..lastly frazersand formans guys did everything they could to keep them away from big punchers.. AND when they did fight big punchers, frazer got knocked out and forman came within a hair of getting knocked out from ron lyle..
Boy, Norton was the victim of some bad refereeing. I just watched the Norton-Cooney debacle.
This one's not as bad as that but it's awful officiating just the same.
Lane had no business allowing Norton to continue after the first knockdown. What was he thinking? You can see from here at 2:13 that Norton's on queer street big time. I'm not sure he even knows where he is. He's certainly in no condition to face anyone in the ring, let alone a crusher like Shavers who could do him real harm.
Yeah but he wasn't OK. There's a difference between a chance to continue and serious injury. Norton couldn't continue. The ref should have seen that. You can see from here that Norton's unable to continue.
It's not up to the fighter. The fighter can signal all he wants that he can continue. Most fighters aren't' going to say they want to stop. There's too much at stake. That's why it's left to the ref to make the decision.
Norton writes in his autobiography that the ring doctor in the Cooney "fight" said that he was 4 seconds from death. Cooney said he was scared because he was hitting Norton when he was unconscious.
And Norton also stated that "The referee was out of position and thought I was in a defensive crouch instead of semiconscious and held up only by the ropes"
These things happen in boxing, It's a tough sport where people can die. If Cooney saw he was unconscious he could have stopped hitting him.
I don't know where Norton was getting that. He was out cold. If he saw it on the tape I'd like to know where on the tape he sees the ref is out of position. You can see Perez standing there as Cooney delivers the third, fourth, and fifth blows to the unconscious Norton.
The consensus was that the ref was derelict in his duty to protect Norton. Sugar Ray Leonard sitting at ringside said the ref failed to do his job. This is the same ref that allowed Mercer to do the same thing to Morrison.
Not particularly. I just think he was the victim of some bad officiating. He was a legitimate heavyweight contender imo. He's a bit overblown. He was a good heavyweight but, like many people, I think his main claim to fame was his close bouts with Ali. If he hadn't given Ali problems he'd just be another name in the ranks of the top heavyweights of the 70's.
I agree. He beat Ali in their third fight, even Ali admitted that. I always like Norton, liked his book. He was a very good heavyweight in an era of the greatest heavyweights of all time.
Interesting. I didn't know Ali admitted Norton beat him. I didn't see the fight that way. I thought Ali won. I might think differently now if I were to see that fight again. It's been years since I watched it.
Ali was overrated, imo.
Norton's biggest problem as far as his ranking in the 70s, and all time for that matter, is his fatal inability to handle punchers. The fact that he suffered three quick demolitions in just a round or so detracts from his accomplishments.
Yes he said it at a press conference after the fight, Ali was talking and the reporter said "you are talking like you didn't win the fight" and Ali said, yeah you're right I didn't win the fight I got beat. I thought Norton won pretty easily, Ali was well past his prime in 1976 and the war with Frazier in 75 pretty much sealed his fate, he should have retired after that fight but that's easy for me to say.
I don't read a lot into that hand gesture by Ali at the end but taken together with his comments at the press conference you mention and the comments Norton says he made (Going The Distance p. 123) it does look as though Ali conceded victory to Norton.
The judges said it was the 15th round that cost Norton the fight. If Norton hadn't held back but come out punching as he had the previous 14 rounds they said he probably would have carried their cards.
The thing you have to remember about the judges assessment is that they were using a more objective criteria than most fans do. We tend to get wowed by showboating, big punches and last minute flurries etc. But the judges use an established criteria that most of us don't. They score fights based on: 1) effective aggressiveness 2) punching accuracy 3) defense and 4) ring generalship.
It's surprising to see how differently you score a fight when you confine yourself to these criteria.
I can't agree with you on the judges. I think they can be persuaded by the fighters popularity and charisma. I think that's why they gave the 3rd fight to him against Norton, if it was some other fighter I believe Norton get's the win. Another example if the Leonard, Hagler fight, IMO the judges were clearly influenced by the crowd who were rooting for Leonard and his show boating during the fight, Hagler was champ and I believe he won that fight rather easily. Same with Leonard Hearns 3.
@topcat42 Your premise might be correct, but your data is messed up. There never was a Leonard Hearns 3, and Leonard won the first four rounds against Hagler on virtually everyone's cards (excepting Hagler's family).
The problem with most people is, they watch a whole fight, and then figure who beat who up. Fights are scored by rounds, and if you score round by round, you sometimes get a different impression.
The 3 was just a typo, Leonard clearly got beat in their 2nd fight do you not agree with that?
Sure Leonard won the first 4 rounds but last time I checked you need to win 7 rounds to win a 12 round fight and Leonard only won the last 30 seconds of a couple rounds after round 4. Hagler was champion and his title was taken away from him by Leonard, it was close but I had Hagler winning as did most objective observers of this fight.
@topcat42 I thought Leonard beat Hagler, although the fight to me was irrelevant. Both were well past their primes, and both looked horrible. I don't think most people scored it for Hagler, seems to me slightly the reverse. I don't give points for champions - that's not how fights are supposed to be scored.
I scored Leonard Hearns 2 very close. I sometimes score it for Leonard, sometimes a draw. Scored round by round, it's very close. If watch and then say who won, you'd pick Hearns.
@topcat42 Well, I gave Hearns two points for both those rounds, and I still think the fight was very close. Hearns was far more hurt in the 5th, which I gave a 10-8 to Leonard.
Hearns was hurt almost every round after the sixth. He got bombed by heavy body shots that had him wincing in the 7th, which I gave to Leonard because I didn't think Hearns' opening rally was very effective.
Rounds 1,2,3, and 11 were easy rounds for Hearns. Rounds 5,9,10,12 were easy for Leonard.
Show me where Leonard admitted to losing that fight.
The judges scored the fight a draw. Judge Jerry Roth scored the fight 113-112 for Hearns, Judge Tom Kazmarek scored it 113-112 for Leonard, and Judge Dalby Shirley scored it 112-112. Shirley was the only judge to give Leonard a 10-8 margin in the twelfth. The decision was soundly booed, as most felt that Hearns had won.[2] Eventually, Leonard admitted that Hearns deserved the decision.
@topcat42 Yes, answer the question. Normally, when you present data, you follow it with supporting information. Your trying premise supported by your own premise.
I know the scoring of the fight, what was your point? It was a very close fight, I
don't have a problem with the way any of the judges scored it. You do.
People were pulling for Hearns in that fight, and most people boo draws. People wanting either fighter would.
@topcat42 Oh my, you're not serious, are you? First, you never quoted Wiki, but even if you had, I'm going to assume you know better than that. You don't know what Wiki is? Anyone can add what they want. I have done it all the time. You use that as proof?????
Show me where LEONARD says it. Show me the quote.
I remember after the fight, having this argument. Then people scored it round by round, including Merchant. Then they understood. It was very close.
@topcat42 Show me the interview. I can show you after the fight that Leonard said he thought he did enough to win. That's easy.
Even Larry Merchant, who originally broadcast the fight, thought Hearns won easily, while broadcasting. Then when he scored it round by round, he had it a draw. That's how the fight was.
Again, I find it very interesting you scored round 7 for Hearns. The average Joe often does, but he lost the round easily.
@topcat42 And Hearns said he was OK with that decision.
The full context of what Leonard said was that Hearns proved himself that night, and because of what was expected, he gave that won to Hearns. He's said that many times, but they took that blurb out of the full context.
They also always ask him about the Hagler fight. He gives the same weird answer. He said he won because no one expected him to last.
LOL oh man you are a trip. It's right there in front of you with Leonard saying he believes Hearns won that fight and all you can come up with is it was taken out of context?
Leonard said "In my eyes Tommy won the fight, I consider it as 1-1" How the hell do you take that statement out of context? It shows him saying it on video.
Now show me where Leonard ever stated he thought Hagler won their fight. You are digging yourself a deeper hole, show me now.
@topcat42 He didn't say Hagler won the fight, they ask Leonard a lot about this Hearns 2 and Hagler, and he always responds he won against Hagler because people didn't expect him to finish, so he exceeded expectations, and then says Hearns did the same thing.
He also states that he never watches that fight, or any of his late fights. So, he's probably sick of people saying he lost the fight. I can watch it several times, and I can't even agree with myself on every round, every day.
@topcat42 How else could you score 8-4 for Hearns?????
Hearns clearly lost 5,9,10,12. So, which were your four rounds? You scored one of those for Hearns????
Also, watch round 4 again. Tell me how Hearns won that round. He landed next to nothing. So, how was this fight not close?
The three professional judges all had it close. Hearns was OK with the decision, but you know better? It was a close fight either way. If you score it 6-6 for Hearns, I can see that. 8-4?
"I am ok with the decision because I don't want to say anything bad against Ray" Want that proof too? He never said he thought it was a draw however Leonard did say Hearns won that fight.
I has Hearns winning 1-4 6-8 and round 11. The crowd booed after the decision because they knew he got robbed, dont give me this "they were rooting for hearns nonsense" Leonard always had the crowd on his side, don't be silly.
@topcat42 You're quite wrong. People, including myself, were irritated with Leonard for hand picking opponents. People go for the underdog.
So, you did state you picked Round 7 for Hearns. Why are you arguing it. That's terrible scoring, really. Tell me how Hearns won round 4. He did nothing, except hit with a reaching right or two.
I score six rounds cleanly for Leonard. Even though the announcers score 6 for Leonard, I go back and forth. I score 8 for Hearns, but it's close too
You don't know boxing history very well then because Leonard was the Ali of his era, he was always the favorite by the crowd. The crowd clearly booed the decision of the fight and rightly so.
Yes I gave round 7 to Hearns as did most people including the announcers of the fight why is that so hard for you to comprehend? Neither did much in round 4 Leonard just did less. Show me where the announcers gave 6 rounds for Leonard.
@topcat42 You probably weren't around then, and if you were, weren't following boxing. Leonard was despised by that time, because he was hand picking opponents. And Hearns was the underdog.
The announcers were very biased, and still gave round 6 for Leonard.
If you think Hearns won 4 and 7, there's not much more to talk about. You were pulling for Hearns, and gave him every close round. He lost both, clearly.
Hearns did far less in round 4, and round 7 got bombed to the body.
@topcat42 Did you take English at that time? I said the announcers gave round 6, not that they gave him six rounds. They were completely biased and still gave him six, said four was very close (Clancy probably scored it for him), and said 8 was close.
I'm back and forth on round 6.
Sounds like you still are in diapers. Luckily, judges are better than you are.
Any way you look at it, the fight was very close. Someone biased can score it 8-4, but real boxing people don't.
Do you understand English now? asked you for a thing called PROOF that the announcers gave Leonard round 6 and all you do is babble on. You asked me for proof that Leonard admitted Hearns won the fight and made you look silly by providing it, now show me where the announcers gave Leonard round 6, understand or shall I write it down in crayon for you?
Larry Holmes said after this fight that no one alive could have stood io to the bombs Shavers hit Norton with.
zenmachinefilms 5 days ago
Poor Ken
whothinksimawesome 1 month ago
Norton just couldn't handle big punchers.
WestofHollywood1 2 months ago
Great win for Shavers, but people, especially the bangitslo guy, are getting on Norton's case too much. Norton was no Ali or Frazier, but the match with Ali was not just luck (Ali was barely able to beat him back) and it's not the only reason he's admired (he won the belt under circumstances that had nothing to do with his fight with Ali). Norton was aging by this point, and his chin was always his weakest quality.
itstheblueguy 3 months ago
ken had so many basic assets,strength,condition,etc.that it took really good fighters to expose his liabilities.in this particular case,lack of mobility,and general defensive skills,i.e.boband weave,slips,stops,shoulder rolls etc..you need everything to beat a monster like Earnie.you cant just stand there and trade shots with a wrecking ball like shavers
dempsey981 4 months ago
IS that ref Mills Lane ???? so he did have hair once....kind of ! :)
steveN111333 4 months ago
Norton could not handle the big punchers he could not fight going backward or side to side
Kidfunkadelic77 4 months ago
I would have to disagree with you on that comment..shavers was not just an ordinary fighter he was probably the hardest puncher of his era many great fighters who could punch avoided him simply because they knew he had a punchers chance...as for Ali he's the greatest that ever lived he was the kind of guy that made great punchers look ordinary in an era where such a term like ordinary was a rarity becuase of all the talent that existed.
ceasar1216 6 months ago
@ceasar1216 probably the hardest puncher of modern times. the professionals agree!
UberTankred 5 months ago
Ken Norton was silly to think that he was Muhammad Ali. I seriously don't see where he intended to go with this plan. Trying to slug with Earnie Shavers? Very few men did that and survived.
MrRoyalFatness 6 months ago
@MrRoyalFatness yup but Quarry survived,in fact he knocked shavers out.that was boxer/slugger poetry,what a friggin site.i couldnt believe he did it.
dempsey981 4 months ago
@dempsey981
Nope, me neither. Jerry Quarry was some boxer indeed.
MrRoyalFatness 4 months ago
@MrRoyalFatness yea i wish he would have gained the title at least once,he was simply a cool guy who was skilled max..not many guys beat jerry quarry,i think,except when he got old,most or near all his losses were to champs.
dempsey981 4 months ago
Norton tried to play rope-a-dope with Shavers was dumb. He never tired to box him and got KO'd.
crownedful 6 months ago
I USE TO BOX, ONE THING U LEARN U STAY AWAY FROM THE POWER PUNCHER U MOVE TOWARD ERNIES RIGHT HAND..SO U STAY ON ERNIES LEFT SIDE.U ALSO HIT HIM FROM A DISTANT
09bnunez 8 months ago
Norton's son, Ken Jr. was at ringside and later described his sobering disillusionment when he realized his father wasn't indestructible. Guess he wasn't in Caracas for the Foreman bout. Marvis Frazier spoke of the exact same feeling when he realized that his father wasn't clowning around against Foreman in Jamaica. Hard to pinpoint which punch sent Norton downhill, there were so many of them it might have been the cumulative effect leading to the first knockdown.
sportshistorybuff 8 months ago
Did you see the last uppercut which shavers landed on the chin of Norton? He almost discapitatet Norton by that right uppercut.
78Panji 8 months ago
Would love to have seen him go up against Foreman...it probably would have been more brutal to watch then when Foreman fought Lyle. I think his chances would have been better simply because he was more elusive then Lyle. Although Frazier could punch he just didn't have the power to overwhelm a big guy like George. Shavers on the other hand did...it would have been a hell of a fight....
ceasar1216 9 months ago
@ceasar1216 Foreman knew what a dangerous puncher Shavers was. That's why Foreman avoided him.
Dre11418 7 months ago
I would rate Shavers in the top five as probably one of the most brutal punchers in history He's definitely up there with Foreman and Lyle...
ceasar1216 9 months ago
I love watching this guy fight he was a killer like Sonny Liston although i think he hit much harder then Liston in his prime he did what heavyweights are suppose to do put em away...Ernie Shavers is truly one of the greatest....
ceasar1216 9 months ago
I saw Earnie Shavers in Las Vegas at a memorabilia shop, I didn't know who he was, now I know haha. Awesome stuff, knocking out a name like Norton is a big deal.
ijl1i 9 months ago
Ken Norton was NOT an ordinary fighter !!
You must be kidding, right ??
YankeesFlair 10 months ago
Just another ordinary fighter that people thought was Great because he beat Ali. Ali had a HABIT of making ordinary fighters look good (Doug Jones, Karl Mildenberger,Ken Norton, Leon Spinks) and making Great Fighters look bad (Liston, Foreman, Lyle, Quarry,) Go figure.
bangitslo 10 months ago 2
@bangitslo What a stupid thing to say. Norton went 15 rounds with holmes and lost by a small split decision in one of the best fights of the 70s. Not forgetting his split decision loss to ali in '76 was very controversial.
In no way was Norton 'ordinary'.
MOSTechnology 9 months ago 3
@bangitslo
Yeah, it's a product of underestimation. But none of those fighters you list managed to escape defeat from Ali. Twice in the case of Norton. I wouldn't call Norton 'ordinary' btw. He was just bad against punchers. Styles make fights. But Spinks, the rematch showed it was obviously Ali just going through the motions.
cbaldwinjr 9 months ago
@bangitslo i agree
kuriaki71 9 months ago
@bangitslo i agree. Not a super skilled fighter but "Muhammad Ali, Joe Bugner, Larry Holmes, Randall "Tex" Cobb, Ron Lyle and Ken Norton all credited Shavers as being the hardest puncher they had ever faced in the ring." He is widely considered the hardest puncher of all time by the press.
He started boxing late (22 years old) and maybe that explains why he is doesn´t have a great techique.
juvenaldamasceno 8 months ago
@bangitslo Incredible my brother. You stated that exceptionally well. Nicely done!
leahpd19 7 months ago
@bangitslo
Norton was definetely no ordinary fighter. His chin just wasn't made of the same material as Ali's or Foreman's chin.
MrRoyalFatness 4 months ago
@bangitslo good point.
MrQmason 3 months ago
@bangitslo
yeah and he beat Ali three times, the second two stolen from Norton, the last an absolute disgrace
donnyab 3 months ago
@donnyab norton är en nolla brevid store muhammad ali thats it!!!
mslasseman 6 days ago
@bangitslo norton made ali looks not great at all,he wasnt the greatest and you all know it
perokcojones 3 months ago
@bangitslo all them guys were really really good boxings most competitive era
dzk218 3 months ago
@bangitslo WTF?! Ken Norton is one of the greatest of all time!!!
ChujCiWJedzenie 1 month ago 2
Norton ducked fighting Shavers for 7 years. This fight proved why. The Acorn destroyed him. No contest!! They could fight once a week and Norton would kiss the canvas each time.
VinceNphilly 11 months ago
@finetubs Dude Foreman knocked Lyle out in one of the most brutal heavyweight bouts of all time. It did not go the distance, did not go to the judges. It wasa KO.
dropway9 1 year ago
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diegoadelgado 1 year ago
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@XionComrade u no wat bro?? he was shit.. he never cut take a beating .. he never fouhgt guys who really gave him a beating .. 2 hes body like foreman det 2 frazier.. shaves got KO Before he even got 1 good hit in.. while if it was Foreman.. quarry.. wel get fuckt up foreman was a inside fihgter going 2 u body.. and just strat killing it and foreman had sum of the crazyet uppercuts ever seen.. in boxing..quarra was a lucky kid.. if he ever Fouhgt sombody like foreman he would got his ass kickt
BunBRIP 1 year ago
I don't believe that Holmes was afraid of Tyson, but after the fight he said he didn't want a rematch. That he knew Tyson was too tough. I think early on, Holmes didn't take Tyson seriously, and he got tagged with a right.
theriokid 1 year ago
This is the strangest fight I've ever seen. For some reason, Norton just got himself against the ropes and let Shavers pound on him.
theriokid 1 year ago
@theriokid Norton always did that against a big puncher. That's why the biggest punchers he faced beat him as badly as they did.
JGmartinezJr 1 year ago
@JGmartinezJr He didn't do that against Foreman. Foreman just stalked him and knocked him out. Here, he has the worst strategy ever. Lay on the ropes and let a puncher pound on you.
theriokid 1 year ago
@theriokid Hehe, never a good strategy.
JGmartinezJr 1 year ago
LOOK AT THE FOEMAN VS KEN NORTEN FIHGT WEN NORTEN WAS DOWN he dident even get up.. look at the shaves and ken norten fihgt he went up and wasent even dizzy or stun he just neddet 30 scends and he was ready again.. while ... IN FOEMANS MATCH KEN NORTEN WAS ALMOST OUT LOOK AT IT USELF IF U DONT BELIVE ME!!! .. muhammed ali said shaves was the hardest hitter thats a lie.. the reson he says that is becuse Foeman really never got Any good shots in 2 muhammed alis Head or Body While shaves Det!!
BunBRIP 1 year ago
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PPL SAY SHAVES WAS ALOT HARDER HITTER TEN FOEMAN THATS BULL SHIT!!! the reson shaves won 1st agienst ken norten so fast is becuse.. he just stratet going 2 the body if foeman det the same think as Shaves ken norten well be down all time Shaves was not the hardstet hitter ..IT WAS FOEMAN!!!!!!!!!!
BunBRIP 1 year ago
why do ppl say ernie Shaves was the hardset hitter he dident even hit that ard.. ??? FOEMAN WAS ALOT HARDER TEN SHAVES shaves was just like Sonny liston Foeman was Alot Hard hitter ten Shaves
BunBRIP 1 year ago
@BunBRIP Larry Holmes said Shavers hit harder than Mike Tyson - and Tyson was a hard hitter himself. Getting hit by Shavers, he said, was like getting hit by a truck.
JGmartinezJr 1 year ago
@JGmartinezJr go fuck uself Like a truck.. u motherfucker shaves was a hard hitter but never as hard as a truck u stupid bitch.. shaves was a hard hitter yes but still it was not inposiboil 2 take those hits Ali took them Larry took them.. I WEL TAKE THEM.. U STUPID FAGGET
BunBRIP 1 year ago
@BunBRIP Wow, what am immtaure joke of a person you are. Can't handle the truth without name-calling. I trust Holmes' word over some internet troll such as yourself, he fought both men and as such, I believe HIM. Lemme guess. you were one of Shavers' opponents and he knocked you senseless, is that why you hate him so much?
JGmartinezJr 1 year ago
@JGmartinezJr larry holmes said shaves was a harder hitter.. oki.. Larry holmes also said.. i never been afraid of no 1 .. but Agienst tyson i was so Afraid i dident even wannet 2 fihgt.. but i still det it.. A OLD ALI.. Took the puchinges and hits by shaves .. and WON THE FIHGT.. While shaves was a harder hitter ten tyson.. While A OLD Larry holmes got hes ass beat by tyson who was a hard hitter 2 not like shaves but still a hard hitter he went down and never came back up!!!
BunBRIP 1 year ago
@BunBRIP No, Holmes never said he was afraid of Tyson... show me an actual source where he said he was afraid of Tyson.. I have read his bio and he never said that he was scared... if anything, he felt he would have KO'd Tyson had his arm not gotten caugth in the upper rope while trying to throw his patented uppercut... please do some reseasrch before commenting.. you sound like an uneducated fool.
JGmartinezJr 1 year ago
@JGmartinezJr MOTHERFUCKER.. HE WAS AFRAID OF TYSON HE SAID HIMSELF U A THE FOOL U PIG FUCKING SHIT HOLE ..TYSON KICKT HISS ASS ..U SEEN HIS BIO..WEL FAGGET ..ALOT OF BOXERS A LIYING AND NOT TELLING THE TRUTH JUST LIKE TYSON U FAGGET I.. KICK U ASS. HOPE I MEET U 1 DAY..U PIG
BunBRIP 1 year ago
@BunBRIP Grow up Kid... and read Larry's bio.
JGmartinezJr 1 year ago
@JGmartinezJr dont wanna read it its bullshit
BunBRIP 1 year ago
@BunBRIP No, it's not that you don't want to read it, it's that you do not want to admit you lied when you claimed Larry said he was afraid of Tyson... but that's OK.. Holmes > Tyson and it's not eve close.
JGmartinezJr 1 year ago
@JGmartinezJr no no... its cus i no its bullshit.. Tyson vs Holmes Holmes Afraid
BunBRIP 1 year ago
@BunBRIP I hear that Holmes went into that fight just for the money, knowing he was going to get destroyed. After a huge layoff that occurred in the worst part of his entire career, no way would he have stood a chance. But he rallied and still fought a good fight.
XionComrade 1 year ago
@XionComrade Hey fagget wasent it u who dident wanna talk 2 me.. and now u back.. in my face .. talking 2 me like a littel Dog?? wat up Dog.. u wont sum food.. FUCK OFF U FAGGET.. dont got time 2 bitches like u..
BunBRIP 1 year ago
@BunBRIP I want some beef jerky :(
XionComrade 1 year ago
@XionComrade u no wat bro?? he was shit.. he never cut take a beating .. he never fouhgt guys who really gave him a beating .. 2 hes body like foreman det 2 frazier.. shaves got KO Before he even got 1 good hit in.. while if it was Foreman.. quarry.. wel get fuckt up foreman was a inside fihgter going 2 u body.. and just strat killing it and foreman had sum of the crazyet uppercuts ever seen.. in boxing..quarra was a lucky kid.. if he ever Fouhgt sombody like foreman he would got his ass kickt
BunBRIP 1 year ago
@BunBRIP didnt 4man say he avoided quarry cuz he was a slick boxer?He fought lyle and decisioned him over 12,and took a lot less from lyle than ali did for most of the fight or 4man did
finetubs 1 year ago
@finetubs What fight were you watching brother ? Foreman KO'd Lyle in five rounds...its probably one of the most dramatic and brutal slug fest in heavyweight history both men traded shots both men tasted the canvas it was phenomenal...Foreman took a lot more punishment in 5 rounds against lyle then he did from ali in 8 with Ali he was just more exhausted then anything....Ali gave lyle an ass whoppin for 11 rounds and TKO'd em...These guys were monsters real freaks. The Klitchkos? what a joke....
ceasar1216 9 months ago
God damn, Shavers could hit.
Nanaman12345 1 year ago
@Nanaman12345 PPL SAY SHAVES WAS ALOT HARDER HITTER TEN FOEMAN THATS BULL SHIT!!! the reson shaves won 1st agienst ken norten so fast is becuse.. he just stratet going 2 the body if foeman det the same think as Shaves ken norten well be down all time Shaves was not the hardstet hitter ..IT WAS FOEMAN!!!!!!!!!!
BunBRIP 1 year ago
Is it just me or do Hearns and Norton have similar stances (with the left arm low I mean)?
cet0708 1 year ago
@cet0708 Yeah, its supposed to make the Jab harder to spot when you raise your arm up, and sometimes even faster
POTATER1228 1 year ago
What a fighter. Shavers would have killed the bitch ass klitschkos. Norton got caught early with the left hand. I think maby Shavers could have beaten Mike Weaver for the WBA title, too
Coptic78 1 year ago
@Coptic78 shavers was ko'd by quarry,a cruiserwgt and tex cobb,either of the klits would destroy him
finetubs 1 year ago
Wonder who had more punching power Shavers, or Razor Ruddick?
v2vroth 1 year ago
@v2vroth cooney..ko'd norton with about 5 or 6 shots
finetubs 1 year ago
@finetubs yeah so what he was past his prime, What is known is Ali and many others said Shavers hit harder than anyone. Tyson said Ruddick kicked like an friggin mule. Problem with big punchers are that a lot don't have great chins..
v2vroth 1 year ago
Just huge bombs by Shavers. Probably the hardest puncher ever. Ken was a great fighter, but should have retired after this fight.
zenmachinefilms 1 year ago
When Norton froze up, as he often did when he faced huge punchers, he neglected his very underestimated jab. It cost him dearly here against an on-rushing, aggressive power puncher like Earnie Shavers.
sac2la 1 year ago 6
@sac2la yea well said,he appeared to simply freeze up,fear does that,earnies a scary guy
dempsey981 4 months ago
Howard cosell: I don't know what Nortons stradegy is but he is paying a big price for it...Howard, Norton got his ass whupped! What stadegy is that!
zgomer1 1 year ago
mills lane is old as dirt!
daauthor1 1 year ago
Notice how don king immediatly latches onto the nuts of the winning boxer after the fight?
prettyboy1970 1 year ago
@prettyboy1970 Typical Don King.
rickman125 1 year ago
How could the ref let that fight continue with the way Norton was standing at 2:14 .......That's just ridiculous.
teddysalad65 1 year ago
@teddysalad65
Mills lane is a good referee. It's good that he stopped it after the second knock down at least.
TommyGun7111 1 year ago
@teddysalad65
Also, this must've been one of Mills lane first title bouts, because he looks very young and this was in the late 70s.
TommyGun7111 1 year ago
"He did have trouble with bigger punchers"???!!
That's one way to say it. Another would be the that he got froze and got destroyed by the only legitimate punchers he ever faced. One of the great enigmas of that era of heavy-weights. Norton was a killer against anyone who couldn't bang. Ironically, he looked like Duane Bobick against himself every time he stepped up.
jeffmacke 1 year ago
@jeffmacke I don't know why people say Norton was Hell on boxers. He got beaten easily by Holmes, although the judges had it close.
It wasn't bangers that gave him trouble, it was guys that moved forward, and particularly could throw a left hook. He liked to fight from range and would pull is head down and back. If you weren't moving in, you couldn't take advantage of it. If you moved in and hooked, he couldn't shift weight quickly enough and got pounded.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@jeffmacke
Actually Shavers was smaller than Norton. Norton did good against boxer, but stuggled against sluggers
MrShmuel32 1 year ago
@MrShmuel32 I think its the guys with power he struggled with
marcusarkane 1 year ago
At least this KO wasn't as bad as Foreman vs. Norton. That one was just a street fight... a ONE SIDED street fight, that is.
rediculousnicholas 1 year ago
At least this KO wasn't as bad as Foreman vs. Norton. That one was just a street fight... a ONE SIDED street fight, that is.
rediculousnicholas 1 year ago
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Anyone got footage of Shavers hitting the heavy bag? It would be invaluable to the boxing community!
XionComrade 1 year ago
Norton was a glorious fighter. He suffered the most glorious knockouts of almost any heavyweight. He went down hard, stayed hurt, and got knocked out like a dog time and time again. You really have to admire his showmanship. You never felt cheated by his knockout losses.
He actually got badly hurt by a right in this fight, not a left. Luckily, it was Ken Norton who never really could recover from being hurt, so he got hit plenty more. A fine knockout loss.
TA152H01 1 year ago
People say Norton couldn't take a punch, but he got KO'd by three of the hardest punchers in boxing history! (Foreman, Shavers, Cooney).
Great win for Shavers though. He made the most of his opportunity here. One of the best to never win a title.
Agree with topcat42 on some of those decisions though. Kenny got the short end of the stick in his third Ali fight.
zenmachinefilms 1 year ago
The man Earned it. Kenny could not weather the leather.
GeneralParadigm 1 year ago
Time never stands still.Used to think norton was a real muscleman when I was a youngster watching these fights.Yet here......
helltopay1 2 years ago
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helltopay1 2 years ago
WOW! Awesome!
tattooedtrillionaire 2 years ago
Norton never could hang with a big puncher. Making friends with Frazier was the best move Norton ever made because it saved him from having to fight Frazier and get a guaranteed knockout loss.
When a guy couldn't crush a grape with his punches (Bobick, Ali) is when Norton was at his best. But against punchers like Foreman, Shavers, Cooney, etc., Norton always came out a KO loser.
wayupinya1 2 years ago
Norton was over rated. It was proven here. They GAVE him the WBC title when Spinks rematched Ali. He couldn't take a punch. Foreman KOd him in 2. Shavers KOd him in 1. Cooney KOd him in 1. He never fought Frazier or Ron Lyle. His best moment was his first and only defense
vs Larry Holmes. Look up the 15th round. It was a classic. Norton's whole career was based on his one win against Ali.
stlrockn 2 years ago
Yeah but he beat Ali at least twice. That fight in `76 at Yankee stadium Kenny should have won the heavyweight championship right there. Giving him the title in `78 was only an attempt to make up for what was stolen from him.
He was hell on a boxer like Ali or Holmes. He did have trouble with the bigger punchers.
ExplosiveThinMan 2 years ago 2
@ExplosiveThinMan ---u r right on again, Thin Man. Norton was robbed in 3d Ali fight. Shavers was one of the hardest punchers ever, and Norton had trouble w/ the big punchers (though he was a pretty good puncher himself). By the way, what yr was this fight? Ref should never have allowed it to continue after 1st knockdown
loyaldude10 1 year ago
@stlrockn You said it so very well. Few realize that in the fight before Ali, Norton was paid just $300. He was not a top flight guy at all.
SeisanStnc 1 year ago
2 rounds with foreman
Spaid2007 2 years ago
ken norton goes 42 rounds with muhammad ali and goes 1 round with ernie shavers 1 round with george foreman and 1 round with gerry cooney
jeryd2003 2 years ago
That's because Norton never did well against sluggers. His style was great for guys that were either boxers (i.e. Ali and Holmes) or guys that didn't hit hard (i.e. Young).
dreman1970 2 years ago
A cuban also ko'ed Norton with one shot I believe.
kbi35 2 years ago
Yeah.Jose Luis Garcia early in his career......But he also KO'ed Garcia in a return bout
dreman1970 2 years ago
I guess ref Mills Lane has never heard of a standing 8 count. With 8 more seconds to recover, Ken might have came back.
JJHusker 2 years ago
im sure he was going by whatever the rules in plaec where nit wit...not all fights..espically back then..had the standing 8 count in place...
gqmighty 2 years ago
Dude he got killed....Norton's strategy was not to slick. Stand in front of one of the greatest bangers of all time. Real smart Ken.
longtalltexan63 2 years ago
came back to what?
KingRhaul 2 years ago
Dude, Norton was NOT recovering from that ass whippin. They could've given him standing 80 count. Did you see his legs when he tried to get up?? He was DONE......
dreman1970 2 years ago
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i can't believe they call the 70's fighters great!!!!!!!!!!
jazbb 2 years ago
why cant u believe it? the 70s and 80s produced the greats the heavy weight division now a days are a joke and when the best fight its always to late....hollyfield v tyson and lewis v tyson to name just two.
johndanbutz 2 years ago
lol....ken norton and earnie shaves though would not be unfied champs today....i think vitali or wlad would both beat them..though earnie would stand a chance with wlad given wlads slightly shaky chin....though his chin is less shakey then nortons was...
gqmighty 2 years ago
remember norton fought 2 of the biggest punchers in heavyweight history. he was shot when he fought cooney so i dont really count that one..lastly frazersand formans guys did everything they could to keep them away from big punchers.. AND when they did fight big punchers, frazer got knocked out and forman came within a hair of getting knocked out from ron lyle..
flapperhead 2 years ago
shavers was a hell of a hitter
tntsugarherbosa 2 years ago 3
Boy, Norton was the victim of some bad refereeing. I just watched the Norton-Cooney debacle.
This one's not as bad as that but it's awful officiating just the same.
Lane had no business allowing Norton to continue after the first knockdown. What was he thinking? You can see from here at 2:13 that Norton's on queer street big time. I'm not sure he even knows where he is. He's certainly in no condition to face anyone in the ring, let alone a crusher like Shavers who could do him real harm.
rfalfonse 2 years ago
They let them fight back in the old days. That's when boxing was at It's best.
topcat42 2 years ago
It's not fighting when you pummel a helpless man.
rfalfonse 2 years ago
Norton got up and signaled he was ok, they gave them a chance back then, 15 rounds instead of this 12 round garbage.
topcat42 2 years ago
Yeah but he wasn't OK. There's a difference between a chance to continue and serious injury. Norton couldn't continue. The ref should have seen that. You can see from here that Norton's unable to continue.
It's not up to the fighter. The fighter can signal all he wants that he can continue. Most fighters aren't' going to say they want to stop. There's too much at stake. That's why it's left to the ref to make the decision.
rfalfonse 2 years ago
Times were different back then. Fighters fought until they couldn't get up. It's the way it was. Now it's much different.
topcat42 2 years ago
Norton writes in his autobiography that the ring doctor in the Cooney "fight" said that he was 4 seconds from death. Cooney said he was scared because he was hitting Norton when he was unconscious.
rfalfonse 2 years ago
I read and have Ken Nortons book "Going The Distance" what page is that on?
topcat42 2 years ago
It's on 170.
rfalfonse 2 years ago
And Norton also stated that "The referee was out of position and thought I was in a defensive crouch instead of semiconscious and held up only by the ropes"
These things happen in boxing, It's a tough sport where people can die. If Cooney saw he was unconscious he could have stopped hitting him.
topcat42 2 years ago
I don't know where Norton was getting that. He was out cold. If he saw it on the tape I'd like to know where on the tape he sees the ref is out of position. You can see Perez standing there as Cooney delivers the third, fourth, and fifth blows to the unconscious Norton.
The consensus was that the ref was derelict in his duty to protect Norton. Sugar Ray Leonard sitting at ringside said the ref failed to do his job. This is the same ref that allowed Mercer to do the same thing to Morrison.
rfalfonse 2 years ago
Well It's right there on page 170. Mills Lane was one of the best referee's boxing ever had. I put him right up there with Arthur Mercante.
topcat42 2 years ago
I agree Cooney should have stopped hitting Norton. It was cowardice on his part that he didn't stop.
rfalfonse 2 years ago
Are you a big Ken Norton fan?
topcat42 2 years ago
Not particularly. I just think he was the victim of some bad officiating. He was a legitimate heavyweight contender imo. He's a bit overblown. He was a good heavyweight but, like many people, I think his main claim to fame was his close bouts with Ali. If he hadn't given Ali problems he'd just be another name in the ranks of the top heavyweights of the 70's.
rfalfonse 2 years ago
I agree. He beat Ali in their third fight, even Ali admitted that. I always like Norton, liked his book. He was a very good heavyweight in an era of the greatest heavyweights of all time.
topcat42 2 years ago
Interesting. I didn't know Ali admitted Norton beat him. I didn't see the fight that way. I thought Ali won. I might think differently now if I were to see that fight again. It's been years since I watched it.
Ali was overrated, imo.
Norton's biggest problem as far as his ranking in the 70s, and all time for that matter, is his fatal inability to handle punchers. The fact that he suffered three quick demolitions in just a round or so detracts from his accomplishments.
rfalfonse 2 years ago 2
Yes he said it at a press conference after the fight, Ali was talking and the reporter said "you are talking like you didn't win the fight" and Ali said, yeah you're right I didn't win the fight I got beat. I thought Norton won pretty easily, Ali was well past his prime in 1976 and the war with Frazier in 75 pretty much sealed his fate, he should have retired after that fight but that's easy for me to say.
topcat42 2 years ago
I don't read a lot into that hand gesture by Ali at the end but taken together with his comments at the press conference you mention and the comments Norton says he made (Going The Distance p. 123) it does look as though Ali conceded victory to Norton.
The judges said it was the 15th round that cost Norton the fight. If Norton hadn't held back but come out punching as he had the previous 14 rounds they said he probably would have carried their cards.
rfalfonse 2 years ago
I looked for the interview out here but can't find it, I have it on one of my Ali videos here at home.
topcat42 2 years ago
Look at the very end of this clip and you will see after the decision Ali moves his hands like no I didn't deserve the win.
watch?v=1RGESgkFzCE
topcat42 2 years ago
The thing you have to remember about the judges assessment is that they were using a more objective criteria than most fans do. We tend to get wowed by showboating, big punches and last minute flurries etc. But the judges use an established criteria that most of us don't. They score fights based on: 1) effective aggressiveness 2) punching accuracy 3) defense and 4) ring generalship.
It's surprising to see how differently you score a fight when you confine yourself to these criteria.
rfalfonse 2 years ago
I can't agree with you on the judges. I think they can be persuaded by the fighters popularity and charisma. I think that's why they gave the 3rd fight to him against Norton, if it was some other fighter I believe Norton get's the win. Another example if the Leonard, Hagler fight, IMO the judges were clearly influenced by the crowd who were rooting for Leonard and his show boating during the fight, Hagler was champ and I believe he won that fight rather easily. Same with Leonard Hearns 3.
topcat42 2 years ago 2
@topcat42 Your premise might be correct, but your data is messed up. There never was a Leonard Hearns 3, and Leonard won the first four rounds against Hagler on virtually everyone's cards (excepting Hagler's family).
The problem with most people is, they watch a whole fight, and then figure who beat who up. Fights are scored by rounds, and if you score round by round, you sometimes get a different impression.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01
The 3 was just a typo, Leonard clearly got beat in their 2nd fight do you not agree with that?
Sure Leonard won the first 4 rounds but last time I checked you need to win 7 rounds to win a 12 round fight and Leonard only won the last 30 seconds of a couple rounds after round 4. Hagler was champion and his title was taken away from him by Leonard, it was close but I had Hagler winning as did most objective observers of this fight.
topcat42 1 year ago
@topcat42 I thought Leonard beat Hagler, although the fight to me was irrelevant. Both were well past their primes, and both looked horrible. I don't think most people scored it for Hagler, seems to me slightly the reverse. I don't give points for champions - that's not how fights are supposed to be scored.
I scored Leonard Hearns 2 very close. I sometimes score it for Leonard, sometimes a draw. Scored round by round, it's very close. If watch and then say who won, you'd pick Hearns.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01
We will agree to disagree on the Hagler fight since it could have gone either way but I gave it to the Champion and the aggressor Hagler.
To me Hearns beat Leonard rather easily the 2nd time around, he even knocked him down twice.
topcat42 1 year ago
@topcat42 Well, I gave Hearns two points for both those rounds, and I still think the fight was very close. Hearns was far more hurt in the 5th, which I gave a 10-8 to Leonard.
Hearns was hurt almost every round after the sixth. He got bombed by heavy body shots that had him wincing in the 7th, which I gave to Leonard because I didn't think Hearns' opening rally was very effective.
Rounds 1,2,3, and 11 were easy rounds for Hearns. Rounds 5,9,10,12 were easy for Leonard.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01
I gave it 8-4 Hearns, rather easily. Leonard even admitted he lost that fight.
topcat42 1 year ago
@topcat42 Well, you seem to consistently score against Leonard, so there's no surprise there.
Show me where Leonard admitted to losing that fight. He said after the fight, he thought he did enough to win.
Hearns said after the fight, he was satisfied with the draw since Leonard came on strong at the end, and he did well at the beginning.
Clearly you don't like Leonard, so that's why you gave Hearns EVERY close round. If you think Hearns won the 7th, we have a fundamental disagreement.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01
Show me where Leonard admitted to losing that fight.
The judges scored the fight a draw. Judge Jerry Roth scored the fight 113-112 for Hearns, Judge Tom Kazmarek scored it 113-112 for Leonard, and Judge Dalby Shirley scored it 112-112. Shirley was the only judge to give Leonard a 10-8 margin in the twelfth. The decision was soundly booed, as most felt that Hearns had won.[2] Eventually, Leonard admitted that Hearns deserved the decision.
Anything else I can help you with?
topcat42 1 year ago
@topcat42 Yes, answer the question. Normally, when you present data, you follow it with supporting information. Your trying premise supported by your own premise.
I know the scoring of the fight, what was your point? It was a very close fight, I
don't have a problem with the way any of the judges scored it. You do.
People were pulling for Hearns in that fight, and most people boo draws. People wanting either fighter would.
So, yes, answer the question.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01
WTF are you talking about? I told you Leonard admitted he lost the fight, I show you his words and you still rag out? This is from WIKIPEDIA.
"The decision was soundly booed, as most felt that Hearns had won.[2] Eventually, Leonard admitted that Hearns deserved the decision."
Not good enough for you? What is your excuse now?
topcat42 1 year ago
@topcat42 Oh my, you're not serious, are you? First, you never quoted Wiki, but even if you had, I'm going to assume you know better than that. You don't know what Wiki is? Anyone can add what they want. I have done it all the time. You use that as proof?????
Show me where LEONARD says it. Show me the quote.
I remember after the fight, having this argument. Then people scored it round by round, including Merchant. Then they understood. It was very close.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01
Man you just can't admit when you are wrong can you. This s Leonards quote from an ESPN Classic interview:
"as far as i'm concerned we're 1-1 now.
Now what would you like me to do take you to his house and have him tell you?
topcat42 1 year ago
@topcat42 Show me the interview. I can show you after the fight that Leonard said he thought he did enough to win. That's easy.
Even Larry Merchant, who originally broadcast the fight, thought Hearns won easily, while broadcasting. Then when he scored it round by round, he had it a draw. That's how the fight was.
Again, I find it very interesting you scored round 7 for Hearns. The average Joe often does, but he lost the round easily.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01
The interview is right here:
watch?v=pJfb1FeDFRA
topcat42 1 year ago
@topcat42 And Hearns said he was OK with that decision.
The full context of what Leonard said was that Hearns proved himself that night, and because of what was expected, he gave that won to Hearns. He's said that many times, but they took that blurb out of the full context.
They also always ask him about the Hagler fight. He gives the same weird answer. He said he won because no one expected him to last.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01
LOL oh man you are a trip. It's right there in front of you with Leonard saying he believes Hearns won that fight and all you can come up with is it was taken out of context?
Leonard said "In my eyes Tommy won the fight, I consider it as 1-1" How the hell do you take that statement out of context? It shows him saying it on video.
Now show me where Leonard ever stated he thought Hagler won their fight. You are digging yourself a deeper hole, show me now.
topcat42 1 year ago
@topcat42 He didn't say Hagler won the fight, they ask Leonard a lot about this Hearns 2 and Hagler, and he always responds he won against Hagler because people didn't expect him to finish, so he exceeded expectations, and then says Hearns did the same thing.
He also states that he never watches that fight, or any of his late fights. So, he's probably sick of people saying he lost the fight. I can watch it several times, and I can't even agree with myself on every round, every day.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01
I know he never said Hagler won that fight but he does say Hearns won their rematch fight, get the picture?
What he stated was that he never watches the fights that he LOST.
topcat42 1 year ago
@TA152H01
Now show me where I stated round 7 went to Hearns.
topcat42 1 year ago
@topcat42 How else could you score 8-4 for Hearns?????
Hearns clearly lost 5,9,10,12. So, which were your four rounds? You scored one of those for Hearns????
Also, watch round 4 again. Tell me how Hearns won that round. He landed next to nothing. So, how was this fight not close?
The three professional judges all had it close. Hearns was OK with the decision, but you know better? It was a close fight either way. If you score it 6-6 for Hearns, I can see that. 8-4?
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01
This is what Hearns said about the decision.
"I am ok with the decision because I don't want to say anything bad against Ray" Want that proof too? He never said he thought it was a draw however Leonard did say Hearns won that fight.
I has Hearns winning 1-4 6-8 and round 11. The crowd booed after the decision because they knew he got robbed, dont give me this "they were rooting for hearns nonsense" Leonard always had the crowd on his side, don't be silly.
topcat42 1 year ago
@topcat42 You're quite wrong. People, including myself, were irritated with Leonard for hand picking opponents. People go for the underdog.
So, you did state you picked Round 7 for Hearns. Why are you arguing it. That's terrible scoring, really. Tell me how Hearns won round 4. He did nothing, except hit with a reaching right or two.
I score six rounds cleanly for Leonard. Even though the announcers score 6 for Leonard, I go back and forth. I score 8 for Hearns, but it's close too
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01
You don't know boxing history very well then because Leonard was the Ali of his era, he was always the favorite by the crowd. The crowd clearly booed the decision of the fight and rightly so.
Yes I gave round 7 to Hearns as did most people including the announcers of the fight why is that so hard for you to comprehend? Neither did much in round 4 Leonard just did less. Show me where the announcers gave 6 rounds for Leonard.
topcat42 1 year ago
@topcat42 You probably weren't around then, and if you were, weren't following boxing. Leonard was despised by that time, because he was hand picking opponents. And Hearns was the underdog.
The announcers were very biased, and still gave round 6 for Leonard.
If you think Hearns won 4 and 7, there's not much more to talk about. You were pulling for Hearns, and gave him every close round. He lost both, clearly.
Hearns did far less in round 4, and round 7 got bombed to the body.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01
Um I was around then and was not only following boxing I was watching all the fights. Maybe you were still in diapers?
Show me where the announcers gave Leonard round 6 and 6 of the 12 rounds please.
topcat42 1 year ago
@topcat42 Did you take English at that time? I said the announcers gave round 6, not that they gave him six rounds. They were completely biased and still gave him six, said four was very close (Clancy probably scored it for him), and said 8 was close.
I'm back and forth on round 6.
Sounds like you still are in diapers. Luckily, judges are better than you are.
Any way you look at it, the fight was very close. Someone biased can score it 8-4, but real boxing people don't.
TA152H01 1 year ago
@TA152H01
Do you understand English now? asked you for a thing called PROOF that the announcers gave Leonard round 6 and all you do is babble on. You asked me for proof that Leonard admitted Hearns won the fight and made you look silly by providing it, now show me where the announcers gave Leonard round 6, understand or shall I write it down in crayon for you?
topcat42 1 year ago