He want's raw facts well here they are:-According to statistics in the U.S protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions the Catholic account for 31.3%. Jewish account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions.
Somehow I don't think sticking your noses on bibles help.
1/3 of all pregnancies end in miscarriage, which is medically referred to as "spontaneous abortion". One quarter of all humans ever born are currently alive today. That means 24 billion humans have been successfully conceived. So if we apply today's miscarriage rate (and it undoubtedly was higher in ancient times), god would be responisble for about 12 billion spontaneous abortions.
If god existed, he would be the most prolific abortionist in history.
Who cares about 'sin'. It's just whatever the person reading a bible decides sin is. Killing is a sin, exept if they're homosexual, an adulterer, or a wayward teenager, then according to the bible it's a sin NOT to kill them. Sin is such a meaningless concept.
There is no other way to describe the act of forcibly taking the life of an innocent human being.
The sad state of our country is that it's illegal to murder your child as long as you don't see it yet. As long as it's hidden away in your womb, the Government advocates the murder of a child. And that is horrible and shameful.
Psalm 58:3 "Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies." - It seems all are transgressors. Biblically, there is no contradiction.
Is God wicked by the Bibles morality if He 'the potter' does what he wills with 'the clay'? Nope. He is the judge of all men, and all men transgress the moral law.
@Revinius , YAHUSHUA (JESUS) says that unless we become like children we will not enter the Kingdom of God. HE is clearly telling us here that unless we have the INNOCENCE of a child we'll go to hell. Children are innocent are innocent of sin, much less babies.
@T2Todd2 No, He says "the Kingdom belongs to such as these" referring to those children He had in his arms. It's a great leap, perhaps even an exegetical fallacy to say He refers to all children who ever live and will ever live. Rather He is saying 'these children'.
@Revinius Read Matthew 18:3 since you don't know the verse. Why would YAHUSHUA only refer to the children on his lap? He said "such as these" is synonymous with "like these" which means children. Not just these children sitting on his lap.
@T2Todd2 I know what He is doing. You are committing a real error by assuming a universal where there isnt one. "Such as these" just as easily refers to (and makes more sense) referring to those who are His sheep ("my sheep hear my voice" etc), who have such a disposition towards Him as those kids do. It's about God's elect, not all kids.
Oh btw, why is infanticide wrong if all kids go to heaven as you say? My position is 'we cannot know' but you seem really certain.
@Revinius Ok that's just you interpreting the way you want, pointless to deabte about that. Did you read my argument morrakiu? Infanticide is wrong because it is done by man's hands. If a true Christian is martyred and goes to heaven as according to God's will, does that mean the one who murdered that Christian is innocent? No, still guilty. Infanticide is evil because you take something which doesn't belong to you. It is against God's will. Your destination has nothing to do with how one dies.
@T2Todd2 I find it a bit amusing that you accuse me of interpreting something 'the way want' and then proceed to do it the way you want. Cut the post-modern junk and look at the history of intepretation through the church. Go to commentaries of old, through the reformers (Geneva Commentary etc) and up to the present time (IVP Bible Commentary etc) and look at the views on that passage. As i have said you are saying a verse is universal when there is nothing to indicate it is. It's a fallacy.
@Revinius I find no reason to debate you about that verse because it is self explanatory. The verse I speak of is Matthew 18:3, did you read it? YAHUSHUA said, Lest we become like little children we won't enter kingdom of heaven, which only reinforces when he said the Kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these, in which he meant children generally, not just the ones on his lap which reinforces my point that children are innocent of sin, much less babies. Noone enters heaven with sin.
@T2Todd2 I still think you reading too much into the verse. He is speaking in the context of a child on his lap. He is exhorting people to come to him with a faith and humble desire like that child. I know many children who are neither humble nor faithful.
I think you have a small view of sin also. "In Adam all die" - you are born radically depraved, even "sinful in the womb" as David says. Sin is not so much what you do, but who you are.
If YAHUSHUA sinned, do u think we would have a savior today? No, so how could you say it's not so much what we do but who we are. The reason HE was innocent of sin was because HE never sinned. If all are born condemned because of the fall of Adam, then so was YAHUSHUA born condemned as isn't truly our savior. But no, the truth is that we are all born into a world of sin, but when we choose to sin which is willfully breaking the law of God, then we become sinners.
@T2Todd2 Jesus wasnt a son of Adam. He was never in Adam so was unable to sin. He, like Adam though, could be tempted. The difference between Jesus and Adam was that Jesus didnt give in to the temptation, Adam did. I think your view that we are born innocent parties in a fallen world isnt scriptural. Scripture is clear that we are born depraved and for such reasons God can justly judge anyone he please for "all have fallen short of the glory of God", "for there is none righteous, not even one".
@Revinius Little children can't even form opinions much less willfully break God's law. Little children spend those years from a baby to childhood observing, not premeditating sin, not with knowledge choosing to break God's law, not willfully working against their conscience, nor forming opinions about right and wrong. The bible says that YAHUSHUA learned obedience. HE learned and then obeyed as children learn and then choose whether or not to obey.YAHUSHUA never sinned because HE made a choice
@T2Todd2 I see you havent been blessed with kids yet. Parents realise quickly that kids are born with fundamental flaws. They do not have to be taught naughtiness, they do it because it's their nature. Recall "It's not what goes into a man that makes him a sinner, but what comes out of a man". A good source is Augustines 'Confessions' Book 2 where Augustine critiques his own childhood 'innocence'.
PS. Recall i am not arguing for kids going to Hell, merely against your certainty they are not.
@Revinius No I definitely understand you. I know that kids can lie and steal and things like that but I don't believe it is sin for little children in the eyes of God because all sin has a price and the wages of sin is death. At least I know now that you're not saying little children go to hell. If you do agree that little children are not held accountable then I'll say we're on the same plane.
@T2Todd2 I can't way if they are or are not held accountable. God is not right or wrong in judging anyone. Perhaps He gives kids His grace, as He gave to me, perhaps not. The bible is silent as to still-borns etc. All we can do is look at verses around it, which give us sketchy answers at best. I would be most going against conscience though to identify a certainty where the text does not state one. I don't tell God what to do - He sometimes tells me what He does, but mainly what He wants of me.
@Morrakiu Ironic a christian would make this argument, as jesus is said to have died for your sins. Plus there are numerous curses that are carried on a people for generations. Your god punishes people for their progenetors sins constantaly in the bible and the entire christian religion is based on this concept.
"Samaria will be held guilty, For she has rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword, Their little ones will be dashed in pieces, And their pregnant women will be ripped open."
But you morons will defend abortion in THIS instance. LMAO
But my point is, how can you absolutely critique us on anything when your opinion on our view is arbitrary? We can account for our view, but can you account for yours? Not if you deny an absolute basis (a mind existing prior to the human mind)
Why do my views matter? I'm only pointing out inconsistency in what you suppose to be the moral absolute. I'm not criticising the moral code, just the supposedly "righteous" god who "cannot dwell in the presence of sin", yet only obeys the code when he feels like it.
There is no inconsistency, nor can there be one under your model. There is no good or evil in an arbitrary model, you cannot call God 'good' or 'evil' because your view is ultimately just opinion.
The Christian view is not contradictory as the mind that creates the moral law is not restrained by His creation. God sits in judgment over His creation having created the moral law for it to live by. If creation then transgresses that law then God justly punishes. Where is the contradiction?
Do you understand that I'm using the Bible's own "absolute" morality against it? And your response is "you don't believe in an absolute morality, so your criticism is invalid"?!
This isn't my bloody opinion. Any conclusion I come to is based on the Bible. I don't decide what inconsistency is, you can look that up in the dictionary.
"If creation then transgresses that law then God justly punishes. Where is the contradiction?"
My favorite example is the killing of the Egyptian firstborns.
The Bible states that God "hardened pharaoh's heart so that he would not let the people go". Also, the firstborns killed were not the transgressors, pharaoh was, as he gave the orders and was seen as divine.
God made pharaoh resist his will just so he could kill a third party. All this to make a name for himself.
And don't start with the "god created them, he can do whatever he wants" BS. The Bible calls god righteous and perfect, it says he can't dwell in the presence of sin. This means god is unable to sin by his nature. And yet there's all that murder staring you in the face.....
Murder and justice are two different thinks. Murder in the bible is the premeditated act upon which an ontological equal denies that of another, putting their own desire before that others. We are all made in the image of God and to kill that which is His image, without the authority of being the judge of mankind, is evil .
God is that authority, and He can and will judge all mankind for what they have done. There is no contradiction there, it is a complete world view.
"Murder in the bible is the premeditated act upon which an ontological equal denies that of another, putting their own desire before that others."
If it isn't a righteous judgement, he's still allowed by your logic to treat us worse than Satan would. But he killed children simply for his DESIRE to make himself known. You're making god exempt from his laws solely because of his level of power and knowledge. By this logic, it's not murder for a human to kill a baby.
i am the ontological equal of a baby. Still failing to see this contradiction you speak of... :S
God is a the only being who has the authority to judge other beings because his character defines what is good and what is evil. Separate from God (from a mind prior to the human mind) there can be no 'good' and no 'evil'.
@Morrakiu Every human being with ability to choose deserves the same reward as satan and that is hell and the lake of fire, because all have chosen to follow satan by sinning against God. All babies return to God because they are innocent of sin, doesn't matter who hands take that life. But God can do wrong because HE made life and can take it away because it all belongs to HIM and everything for HIS glory. However when man takes a life, he acts contrary to God's will and steals from God.
@Morrakiu God is the standard and HIS will is always righteous. Anything contrary to HIS will is unrighteous and wicked and hell deserving. HE has destroyed many people not just for HIS glory but because they were wicked. God is glorified in the destruction of the wicked and all who chose to be wicked will inherit hell and those who are innocent of sin will return to HIM.
I think, that every American should watch a rape, , or see documentaries on mis developed human beings and the quality or lack there of life they have,..maybe of this guys daughter,.. is that cruel?!? maybe, but hey thats life lets live it,.. except for In 2007, 37.3 million people were in poverty, up from 36.5 million in 2006 who cant afford it
He want's raw facts well here they are:-According to statistics in the U.S protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions the Catholic account for 31.3%. Jewish account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions.
Somehow I don't think sticking your noses on bibles help.
Idontlikedogs1010 2 months ago
I think this man is suffering from mental health issues.
Idontlikedogs1010 2 months ago
1/3 of all pregnancies end in miscarriage, which is medically referred to as "spontaneous abortion". One quarter of all humans ever born are currently alive today. That means 24 billion humans have been successfully conceived. So if we apply today's miscarriage rate (and it undoubtedly was higher in ancient times), god would be responisble for about 12 billion spontaneous abortions.
If god existed, he would be the most prolific abortionist in history.
uccomic 1 year ago
SEPARATION OF STATE AND RELIGION IS JUSTICE FOR ALL!
PALOMITA694 1 year ago
Who cares about 'sin'. It's just whatever the person reading a bible decides sin is. Killing is a sin, exept if they're homosexual, an adulterer, or a wayward teenager, then according to the bible it's a sin NOT to kill them. Sin is such a meaningless concept.
humanistheart 1 year ago
Abortion = Freedom to choose Murder.
There is no other way to describe the act of forcibly taking the life of an innocent human being.
The sad state of our country is that it's illegal to murder your child as long as you don't see it yet. As long as it's hidden away in your womb, the Government advocates the murder of a child. And that is horrible and shameful.
kv4n 2 years ago 8
Psalm 58:3 "Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies." - It seems all are transgressors. Biblically, there is no contradiction.
Is God wicked by the Bibles morality if He 'the potter' does what he wills with 'the clay'? Nope. He is the judge of all men, and all men transgress the moral law.
Revinius 2 years ago
"It seems all are transgressors."
Firstly, a minority of the firstborns killed would have been babies. Babies are incapable of sin.
Sin is a transgression agaisnt god.
You call this justice, but it is, in effect, punishing these babies for the sins of others, as there is currently no sin to punish them for.
Deuteronomy 24:16
"Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; EACH IS TO DIE FOR HIS OWN SIN."
Morrakiu 2 years ago
who says babies cannot sin?
Revinius 2 years ago
@Revinius , YAHUSHUA (JESUS) says that unless we become like children we will not enter the Kingdom of God. HE is clearly telling us here that unless we have the INNOCENCE of a child we'll go to hell. Children are innocent are innocent of sin, much less babies.
T2Todd2 1 year ago
@T2Todd2 No, He says "the Kingdom belongs to such as these" referring to those children He had in his arms. It's a great leap, perhaps even an exegetical fallacy to say He refers to all children who ever live and will ever live. Rather He is saying 'these children'.
Revinius 1 year ago
@Revinius Read Matthew 18:3 since you don't know the verse. Why would YAHUSHUA only refer to the children on his lap? He said "such as these" is synonymous with "like these" which means children. Not just these children sitting on his lap.
T2Todd2 1 year ago
@T2Todd2 I know what He is doing. You are committing a real error by assuming a universal where there isnt one. "Such as these" just as easily refers to (and makes more sense) referring to those who are His sheep ("my sheep hear my voice" etc), who have such a disposition towards Him as those kids do. It's about God's elect, not all kids.
Oh btw, why is infanticide wrong if all kids go to heaven as you say? My position is 'we cannot know' but you seem really certain.
Revinius 1 year ago
@Revinius Ok that's just you interpreting the way you want, pointless to deabte about that. Did you read my argument morrakiu? Infanticide is wrong because it is done by man's hands. If a true Christian is martyred and goes to heaven as according to God's will, does that mean the one who murdered that Christian is innocent? No, still guilty. Infanticide is evil because you take something which doesn't belong to you. It is against God's will. Your destination has nothing to do with how one dies.
T2Todd2 1 year ago
@T2Todd2 I find it a bit amusing that you accuse me of interpreting something 'the way want' and then proceed to do it the way you want. Cut the post-modern junk and look at the history of intepretation through the church. Go to commentaries of old, through the reformers (Geneva Commentary etc) and up to the present time (IVP Bible Commentary etc) and look at the views on that passage. As i have said you are saying a verse is universal when there is nothing to indicate it is. It's a fallacy.
Revinius 1 year ago
@Revinius I find no reason to debate you about that verse because it is self explanatory. The verse I speak of is Matthew 18:3, did you read it? YAHUSHUA said, Lest we become like little children we won't enter kingdom of heaven, which only reinforces when he said the Kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these, in which he meant children generally, not just the ones on his lap which reinforces my point that children are innocent of sin, much less babies. Noone enters heaven with sin.
T2Todd2 1 year ago
@T2Todd2 I still think you reading too much into the verse. He is speaking in the context of a child on his lap. He is exhorting people to come to him with a faith and humble desire like that child. I know many children who are neither humble nor faithful.
I think you have a small view of sin also. "In Adam all die" - you are born radically depraved, even "sinful in the womb" as David says. Sin is not so much what you do, but who you are.
Revinius 1 year ago
If YAHUSHUA sinned, do u think we would have a savior today? No, so how could you say it's not so much what we do but who we are. The reason HE was innocent of sin was because HE never sinned. If all are born condemned because of the fall of Adam, then so was YAHUSHUA born condemned as isn't truly our savior. But no, the truth is that we are all born into a world of sin, but when we choose to sin which is willfully breaking the law of God, then we become sinners.
T2Todd2 1 year ago
@T2Todd2 Jesus wasnt a son of Adam. He was never in Adam so was unable to sin. He, like Adam though, could be tempted. The difference between Jesus and Adam was that Jesus didnt give in to the temptation, Adam did. I think your view that we are born innocent parties in a fallen world isnt scriptural. Scripture is clear that we are born depraved and for such reasons God can justly judge anyone he please for "all have fallen short of the glory of God", "for there is none righteous, not even one".
Revinius 1 year ago
@Revinius Little children can't even form opinions much less willfully break God's law. Little children spend those years from a baby to childhood observing, not premeditating sin, not with knowledge choosing to break God's law, not willfully working against their conscience, nor forming opinions about right and wrong. The bible says that YAHUSHUA learned obedience. HE learned and then obeyed as children learn and then choose whether or not to obey.YAHUSHUA never sinned because HE made a choice
T2Todd2 1 year ago
@T2Todd2 I see you havent been blessed with kids yet. Parents realise quickly that kids are born with fundamental flaws. They do not have to be taught naughtiness, they do it because it's their nature. Recall "It's not what goes into a man that makes him a sinner, but what comes out of a man". A good source is Augustines 'Confessions' Book 2 where Augustine critiques his own childhood 'innocence'.
PS. Recall i am not arguing for kids going to Hell, merely against your certainty they are not.
Revinius 1 year ago
@Revinius No I definitely understand you. I know that kids can lie and steal and things like that but I don't believe it is sin for little children in the eyes of God because all sin has a price and the wages of sin is death. At least I know now that you're not saying little children go to hell. If you do agree that little children are not held accountable then I'll say we're on the same plane.
T2Todd2 1 year ago
@T2Todd2 I can't way if they are or are not held accountable. God is not right or wrong in judging anyone. Perhaps He gives kids His grace, as He gave to me, perhaps not. The bible is silent as to still-borns etc. All we can do is look at verses around it, which give us sketchy answers at best. I would be most going against conscience though to identify a certainty where the text does not state one. I don't tell God what to do - He sometimes tells me what He does, but mainly what He wants of me.
Revinius 1 year ago
@Morrakiu Ironic a christian would make this argument, as jesus is said to have died for your sins. Plus there are numerous curses that are carried on a people for generations. Your god punishes people for their progenetors sins constantaly in the bible and the entire christian religion is based on this concept.
humanistheart 1 year ago
You'd be amazed at the amount of baby killing in the Bible.
Hosea 13:16
"Samaria will be held guilty, For she has rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword, Their little ones will be dashed in pieces, And their pregnant women will be ripped open."
But you morons will defend abortion in THIS instance. LMAO
Morrakiu 2 years ago
God owns life. He has the authority to take life. There is no contradiction.
DarthVega7 2 years ago
if you do not believe in God then you have no moral absolute which you can impose on anyone, your point is moot.
Revinius 2 years ago
That wasn't the point. I just like pointing out inconsistency among those who DO claim a moral absolute.
The Bible is full of passages that say "god is perfect", "god is righteous", which means he must obey his own laws.
"God owns life. He has the authority to take life. There is no contradiction." - DarthVega7
A contradiction, there is.
Morrakiu 2 years ago
But my point is, how can you absolutely critique us on anything when your opinion on our view is arbitrary? We can account for our view, but can you account for yours? Not if you deny an absolute basis (a mind existing prior to the human mind)
Revinius 2 years ago
Why do my views matter? I'm only pointing out inconsistency in what you suppose to be the moral absolute. I'm not criticising the moral code, just the supposedly "righteous" god who "cannot dwell in the presence of sin", yet only obeys the code when he feels like it.
Morrakiu 2 years ago
There is no inconsistency, nor can there be one under your model. There is no good or evil in an arbitrary model, you cannot call God 'good' or 'evil' because your view is ultimately just opinion.
The Christian view is not contradictory as the mind that creates the moral law is not restrained by His creation. God sits in judgment over His creation having created the moral law for it to live by. If creation then transgresses that law then God justly punishes. Where is the contradiction?
Revinius 2 years ago
"because your view is ultimately just opinion."
Do you understand that I'm using the Bible's own "absolute" morality against it? And your response is "you don't believe in an absolute morality, so your criticism is invalid"?!
This isn't my bloody opinion. Any conclusion I come to is based on the Bible. I don't decide what inconsistency is, you can look that up in the dictionary.
Morrakiu 2 years ago
"If creation then transgresses that law then God justly punishes. Where is the contradiction?"
My favorite example is the killing of the Egyptian firstborns.
The Bible states that God "hardened pharaoh's heart so that he would not let the people go". Also, the firstborns killed were not the transgressors, pharaoh was, as he gave the orders and was seen as divine.
God made pharaoh resist his will just so he could kill a third party. All this to make a name for himself.
Morrakiu 2 years ago
And don't start with the "god created them, he can do whatever he wants" BS. The Bible calls god righteous and perfect, it says he can't dwell in the presence of sin. This means god is unable to sin by his nature. And yet there's all that murder staring you in the face.....
Morrakiu 2 years ago
Murder and justice are two different thinks. Murder in the bible is the premeditated act upon which an ontological equal denies that of another, putting their own desire before that others. We are all made in the image of God and to kill that which is His image, without the authority of being the judge of mankind, is evil .
God is that authority, and He can and will judge all mankind for what they have done. There is no contradiction there, it is a complete world view.
Revinius 2 years ago
"Murder in the bible is the premeditated act upon which an ontological equal denies that of another, putting their own desire before that others."
If it isn't a righteous judgement, he's still allowed by your logic to treat us worse than Satan would. But he killed children simply for his DESIRE to make himself known. You're making god exempt from his laws solely because of his level of power and knowledge. By this logic, it's not murder for a human to kill a baby.
Morrakiu 2 years ago
i am the ontological equal of a baby. Still failing to see this contradiction you speak of... :S
God is a the only being who has the authority to judge other beings because his character defines what is good and what is evil. Separate from God (from a mind prior to the human mind) there can be no 'good' and no 'evil'.
Revinius 2 years ago
@Morrakiu Every human being with ability to choose deserves the same reward as satan and that is hell and the lake of fire, because all have chosen to follow satan by sinning against God. All babies return to God because they are innocent of sin, doesn't matter who hands take that life. But God can do wrong because HE made life and can take it away because it all belongs to HIM and everything for HIS glory. However when man takes a life, he acts contrary to God's will and steals from God.
T2Todd2 1 year ago
@Morrakiu God is the standard and HIS will is always righteous. Anything contrary to HIS will is unrighteous and wicked and hell deserving. HE has destroyed many people not just for HIS glory but because they were wicked. God is glorified in the destruction of the wicked and all who chose to be wicked will inherit hell and those who are innocent of sin will return to HIM.
T2Todd2 1 year ago
The greatest baby killer of all time,
by a very wide margin,
is the god of the christians!
Imaginefree69 3 years ago 2
I think, that every American should watch a rape, , or see documentaries on mis developed human beings and the quality or lack there of life they have,..maybe of this guys daughter,.. is that cruel?!? maybe, but hey thats life lets live it,.. except for In 2007, 37.3 million people were in poverty, up from 36.5 million in 2006 who cant afford it
captianmeade 3 years ago
fuck u old man the fetus isnt human yet
gothdude311 3 years ago
goth- then how is it possible that if you got drunk, got in a wreck, and killed a pregnant lady, you get double homicide?
csu12 3 years ago 4
Thank you for posting this.
gooseCha 3 years ago