Brief Reflections on the Bioethical History of Christianity

[evilgenius2003]

Rationalists of the world: We must unite against the stupidity that is religion. No more should we pretend to respect their ridiculous beliefs! They must be mocked and laughed at.

[DreamsofMajesty]

scribd (dot) com/nb812

[t4705mb6]

As a "christian" US citizen, if you had to give up the power windows and cruise control in your car in order to feed a starving child, would you?

Remember, you would have to use a hand crank for the window and your leg would occasionally get tired on long trips.

It's a dilema. What WOULD "Jesus do"??

[thpt]

If it is a bad thing to force a woman to have an abortion (China: population control through forced abortion at all stages of pregnancy), then it is a bad thing to force a woman to have a pregnancy (Slavic & African ethnic dilutions: repeated rape and imprisonment for months of pregnancy) then it is wrong to force a woman to never have an abortion. You cannot be for one one side of the coin and against the other.

[alienjesus2012]

facts are offensive

[drunkasssteve]

Anyone who hasn't seen the Beyond Belief conferences should really go watch it. Each conference is probably about 20 hours, but well worth it.

[Paxmax]

Great post Rabidape! Thx a million!

[ColoradoMikeyS]

God is Santa Claus for adults.

[gigantibyte]

Great video. A good history lesson on the various stances by the church that have faded away in recent times.

[eequalsfb]

Thanks for uploading this.

[ssnatcherss]

History is the biggest argument against religion.

[ColoradoMikeyS]

God is Santa Claus for adults.

[RodHullIAmHim]

I haven't really heard all of this but,

As a human I could say I wont nobody to touch my bones for any reason after my death...

I wonder how long it would be before my wishes could be thrown out the window...?

Science doesn't respect anything (in that way)...

[dileepvr]

Science isn't an animate entity that one can attribute qualities like respect to.

Doctors won't exhume your remains unless you've signed an agreement before your death, permitting them to use your body for scientific study after death.

[OsyenVyeter]

You seem to be imbuing qualities that are attributable to an entity of sentience to an in animate concept of study. "The great science monster" isnt going to be able to violate your space bubble because we have laws. But even then, morticians might have fun with a practical joke so, try and not worry about it too much or you might get dissapointed.

[Bazil]

Thats a great site, never new of it till now! Thanks Ape.

[ectogambit]

what are the benefits of abortion?

[thorspower]

Well it stops someone from having to deal with a situation they may not be ready for. As a man this is none of my business I do not know what its like to carry a baby so it is not up to me to tell a woman what she can do with her body. The only reason this benefits religion to stop abortion is its possible to be another drone for the cause of holding humanity back.

[ectogambit]

The way I look at it is that I was once a fetus and given the choice i wouldn't want to be aborted.

Oh and as a Man it WOULD be your business IF you were a contributing factor.

Thats why i think condoms are AWSOME (especially the ribbed ones).

Obliviouly the Catholic church are anti-condom, if they weren't STDs and unready parents would be that little less in this world. And we can't have that, we may piss-off God and go to Hell.

[thorspower]

Obviously condoms are great but who is to say when the fetus has self awareness there is no way to determine that.

In the instance where I might be a contributing factor I may be able to voice my opinion but in no way what I say should be held up by law. For once again not my body not my overall decision.

[ectogambit]

The fetus will have self awareness given the chance to grow, should that chance be denied.

I see what you mean about the rights that people have over their bodies but those rights don't encompass fetuses. Fetuses don't have rights because they can't fight for them and are defenceless.

So would you advocate for the life of a fetus as if it were your very self.

For me I see it like putting up with months of discomfort or death.

Looking back is there anyone who would be O.K with being aborted?

[cidvisions]

Half of all fetuses spontaneously abort without any help at all. Should we go into a period of mourning for the billions of naturally aborted fetuses? A fetus, up to a certain level of development, has the brain power of a wart and is therefore not a person yet. The law defines a human being as having the ability to think so if you have a fetus in the early stages aborting it is the same as having a wart burned off. I am reminded of the monty python song, "Every sperm is sacred..."

[ectogambit]

"Half of all fetuses spontaneously abort without any help at all". The would-be parents may mourn.

"A fetus, up to a certain level of development, has the brain power of a wart". If the value of human life can be measured intelligence may be a factor. But I wouldn't have their human potential snuffed out because of a current lack of brain power.

[cidvisions]

I don't think you understand the scope of my comment. When I say half of all fetuses spontaneously abort I am talking about pregnancies people aren't even aware of yet. The numbers I'm talking about are upwards to a billion a year. Obviously your god designed the system with abortion in mind if he makes a billion of them happen naturally every year. In our laws what defines us as human is our brain power. That is why abortion is legal.

[ectogambit]

I don't have a god, i'm not some fundimentalist christain or whatever. I've even had the honor of being called a "atheist f**k" on my channel.

I just think there is a difference between pregnancies aborting spontaneously and those which require human intervention with a pill or a pump.

[cidvisions]

Sorry to have assumed you were a christian, I know I would be insulted. What confuses me though is why you see value in potential. I can agree that there should obviously be limits on how late an abortion can be legal but if you don't think that a zygote has a soul what exactly are we talking about saving? Do you also argue that it would be wrong for a man to get a vasectomy because his 'Potenitial' is being removed? It is the same argument.

[ectogambit]

Its not just value in the in would or going to be human potential but respect as well. I'm not talking about sperms or eggs on their own, just something if left alone will grow to a human being. Terminating the beginning of human life because you don't want it and discarding it because its worthless seems like arrogant presumption to me.

I don't mean to insult anyone but just to have my perspectives challenged, I think it is a controversial subject which dosent need religion to stick its oar in.

[dancingnature]

"I'm not talking about sperms or eggs on their own, just something if left alone will grow to a human being. "

actually without a sort of "this side up" stamp from the mother's genes,the balls of human cells wont develop into a human

fertilized eggs from humans never grow into people without a womb

your anti abortion argument is based on bad info

[ectogambit]

Of course THE WOMB! Damn I totally did not realize that a womb was required for pregnancy. I feel a bit foolish now, thank you for your help.

Did it occur to you that when I said "just something if left alone" may refer to not terminating a pregnancy or abortion?

Ever heard of quote mining and straw men.

[artyfarty2]

I suggest you take a look at a case that came to light in the last year in the UK. Search with 'Dad raped daughters for 27 years' on Google or Yahoo. Then come back and explain to me how forcing these women to give birth is in anyway ethical.

[ectogambit]

I don't think I'd want to force anything on anyone. So how many months old do you think a fetus can be before abortion's are a no no.

Oh and leave the guilt trip to fundamentalist Christians.

[artyfarty2]

"So how many months old do you think a fetus can be before abortion's are a no no. ". I would say it depends on the circumstances. If a woman's life is under threat at the point I think it entirely ethical to terminate at any point in the pregnancy assuming there isn't a viable alternative.

[ectogambit]

I'd agree. In situations of rape abortion is entirely understandable and I don't think I could block someones decision in that situation.

The thing which bothers me is when abortions are done as a result of such casual circumstances. Like if the consenting adults just couldn't be bothered with contraception. I seems to make life so cheap and disposable.

[artyfarty2]

"The thing which bothers me is when abortions are done as a result of such casual circumstances". Well I can't say I am a fan of unplanned pregnancy. No doubt it is quite irresponsible in many cases. At least now you are showing signs of weighing up all of the ethical condiderations. I'll not push the point any further even though I still disagree with your stance, as we are into the realm of a woman's rights vs a fetuses rights. I'll just ask, whose rights are you going to take away?

[ectogambit]

"I'll just ask, whose rights are you going to take away?"

I guess that's why I started commenting on this post. 9 months of pregnancy and the pain of child birth would appear the lesser of 2 evils. Of course as a guy its easy for me to say that.

[artyfarty2]

"9 months of pregnancy and the pain of child birth would appear the lesser of 2 evils.", what about the evils of bringing a baby into a loveless or violent relationship? or consigning a baby to state care for which the stats for their life outcomes are pretty awful. A high percentage end up in violent crime and drug additions.

"Of course as a guy its easy for me to say that. ". You are right. That is one of the reasons why it is the woman's choice.

[ectogambit]

Adoption agencies could place the infants with loving parents though I don't know what the statistics are on that process.

"stats for their life outcomes are pretty awful" I don't suppose you could provide references or sources, I did come here to know more about it.

[artyfarty2]

"I don't suppose you could provide references or sources, I did come here to know more about it". Well you can find stats if you search on "social services statistics". but I think you'll have to do a bit of interpretation. Also try 'statistics on children in care' and pair it with other keywords like 'drugs'. I did get some info from Radio 4 but the detail has dwinddled in my memory. Sorry.

[ectogambit]

I'll look into it.

[deepelmdesciple]

Most of the time adoption is very rare, and kids have to go to foster homes or some other kind of home. And those places are filthy. The kids almost always get molested and raped, and then have to move to another place where the adults dont care because they get paid for it. Then the kid turns 18 and is homeless, and then the kid commits a crime and we pay taxes for him to live in prison for the rest of his life.

[artyfarty2]

It may help you to understand the law as it stands. In simple terms it is like this:

Once a fetus is deemed fit to survive outside the womb it is considered an independent being and assigned human rights, thus no abortion except for special circumstances like health risks. Prior to that the fetus is considered a part of the womans body and it is her right to determine what she does with her body.

[ectogambit]

Wait ive got a better idea.

According to the article on CNN "The 2 daughters were made pregnant 19 times, there were 9 births, 5 miscarriages and 5 terminations. 7 of the children are alive but suffer genetic deformities."

Well there's the answer. You want to know how forcing women to give birth is ethical? Ask the mothers but ask the 7 surviving children to. My opinion is kinda moot in comparison.

Apparently there were 5 terminations but I don't know if those or the births were forced.

[artyfarty2]

The point here is that if abortion were illegal these women would be forced to give birth, and in the case mentioned they would have been little more than baby factories. That is the life you would be forcing upon these women. Its bad enough that they have been raped so many times, but you want them to suffer the pain and risks of child birth and child responsibilities too?

[ectogambit]

"It emerged that in 1998 one daughter rang Childline, a charity to help abused kids, and asked for assurances about being able to keep her children if she came forward. When Childline could not make that guarantee, the daughter did nothing more to raise her plight"

Well that is an opinion from 1 of the mothers at least according to the CNN.

So why don't you ask the 7 surviving children and poach their vote and tell them what you would have forced on them.

[ectogambit]

In extreme cases like this I just don't know and when I'm unsure I tend to choose life yet it situations like this it clashes with human rights.

I started talking to people on this video post to try and gain some more insight into the abortion issue.

[artyfarty2]

"In extreme cases like this I just don't know and when I'm unsure I tend to choose life yet it situations like this it clashes with human rights. ". Absolutely. Ethics is about weighing up the outcomes for all involved. The view that you have so far espoused is one chosen by the religious right and it is very one dimensional and really does not take everything into consideration. You have to look at the suffering or potential for suffering for all parties involved. Nothing is easy.

[ectogambit]

As I said I started talking to people on this video post to try and gain some insight into the abortion issue and unfortunately you haven't helped at all. All you seem to have tried is to take me on a guilt trip a tactic chosen by the religious right and it is very one dimensional and really does not take the issue into consideration.

Thanks for the effort though.

[thorspower]

Well with that logic since it does not have self awareness it has not rights and why should it matter.

[ectogambit]

I would argue that the human potential should have the right to survive.

If you Thors were aborted how ever many years ago because you didn't have self awareness or legal rights, you would not be here now arguing your the case for an oblivion you and I dodged.

And why should you be aborted, why should you not be allowed to survive. Because you weren't planned or not wanted and that is supposed to be a reason why you are not allowed to become. I would confer the same mercy that I got to others

[thorspower]

Well the fact that I was carried to term does make me lucky to say the least but does not mean I had a divine right to this life. If i were aborted as you say well then I guess I would not care for that I never existed at least to the point of a rational intellectual thought. Either way as I see it I would not care either way if aborted well then I was unlucky and lost the 50/50 chance to life by why should I care if I never knew it anyway.

[thorspower]

Ok on that same note why should we find cures for disease shouldn't disease have the right to life and or to reach its full potential. I know this is a twisted analogy but I think it gets my point across. I see germs/bacteria(or any other animal) as no different then us. We do not know if a Germ/Bacteria is sentient we just assume they are not because they can not make viable contact with us.

[ectogambit]

Germs and bacteria don't become our sons or daughters.

For me its just a respect for human life, I'm not saying that you don't. I would not want to be aborted therefore how can I argue different treatment to another. I don't want to be shot and I don't want to shoot anyone.

How is Intelligence and Self Awareness measured?

[thorspower]

"How is Intelligence and Self Awareness measured?"

Now that is the true question.

"I would not want to be aborted therefore how can I argue different treatment to another."

If you were never self aware how would you know you were aborted.

[ectogambit]

"If you were never self aware how would you know you were aborted" I'm talking in retrospect, at the time I wouldn't care, now I do.

Abort the fetus now while it dosent have self awarness and can't protest, it might have something to say about it given a chance to grow to maturity but we'll never know.

When do you think is the point when a fetus can't be aborted?

[thorspower]

I would say at any point that the fetus could be removed from the mother safely. After that point it is when I think its a no go on the abortion.

[ectogambit]

Even a natural birth is a safe removal but even before that you could just use suction pump and that will be that.

I saw this programme on Channel 4 or BBC2 i can't remember which but it explored the contraversial isse of abortion in the U.K and U.S. Towards the end they showed you fetuses at various times of abortion. In the last tray they showed you there were bits of spine and a little hand. It was thought provoking and disturbing.

[thorspower]

Maybe I was not totally clear on what i was saying. I think abortion after the time frame of when a baby if it had to be removed from the mother and survive on its own or even through the assistance of medical technology. That is when you should not be allowed to abort a fetus. Prior to that its not a viable organism. I too have seen pictures/video of abortions in fact I am going to school for nursing so none of this type of stuff is all that new to me.

[ectogambit]

well I guess we can agree to disagree on where the goal posts of abortion should be set.

I ejoyed talking to you about it though. ;)

[thefakeyeti]

But don't you think it is beautiful to have the knowledge that your mother COULD have aborted you but didn't?

Personally if abortion was illegal, each time a girl got knocked up I would think "If abortion were legal.. they would get it" Now I can respect them to a degree..

Each time i get into a fight with my mother I might think "Wow... she probably would've aborted me if it were legal"

[thefakeyeti]

In a twisted logic kinda way..

I just might sign a contract allowing certain people the ability to LEGALLY murder me...

My mom, my brother, certain friends, certain relatives..

Just so I can say "Wow.. you could stab me in the neck with no punishment, yet you don't.. You must really love me!"

[thefakeyeti]

adds* If such a contract existed that is..

Worded poorly

[ectogambit]

Anyway i'm off to bed. I enjoyed talking to you guys and I'll think about what you said. Feel free to message me on my page if you like i check it all the time.

Goodnight.

[Uxoriouswidow]

Looking back, we would have existed if the very opertunity for fertilisation hadn't occurred. It means nothing. It's like a child looking back and being thanful that his parents weren't using contraception. A faetus is no more understanding of what it is to live or have a future than a sperm or egg, or even their chemical precursors.

[Uxoriouswidow]

"Looking back, we would have existed if the very opertunity for fertilisation hadn't occurred"

Wouldn't, that should say.

[Uxoriouswidow]

Part of you was also once in gametes. Would you implore that your parents had sex so that you get a right to life?

[neurochem]

I really respect Patricia Churchland. She is an inspirational figure in philosophy and neuroscience. I have read many of her books and have seen a lot of her lectures.

I have a lot of her videos concerning neuroscience, science, and philosophy on my page if anyone wants to see her brilliance.

[Shervhack]

Religious people take offense when their religion is attacked but fundamentally, I don't think they really agree 100% with the Bible. I Think they will never admit that's it a lie because it would take away the Spiritual aspect. It's their way of getting in touch with their spiritual side but they should learn about other ways of doing so. Try Buddhism. The problem is when u try to explain the nonsense that the church implies life is,you are attacking the anchor even though they dont fully agree

[jebus6kryst]

Science being stunted by religion; same old story. Image how far science would have gone if it were not for religion.  It could be a beautiful world.

[matereymate]

i just really enjoyed this video

[ziggo3]

Damnit, apeman, I have a book to read and two reports to do or I will be kicked out of my english class before I even start, and YOU post ten minute videos??? DAMN YOU! I will never grok your reasons for sabotage of my high school career...

[riversonthemoon]

Thanks for the ammo!

[bamboo4tameshigiri]

I've said this for about a decade: Religious people would HAPPILY drag our species back into the dark ages. Religious fundamentalism is a psychological pathology.

[CadicusTheDamned]

The religious enjoy other people suffering. They always have.

[Keylimedelight]

Why are there only 5 stars? We should get a special 6th star for emergencies like this.

[Vinifera7]

Good thing the Bible's morality is absolute and unchanging...

[neurochem]

I have never been able to understand how people can claim that the bible is impeccable and then change it when it doesn't meet the needs of the time. I think I would have more respect for it if it was absolute, so to speak, but then we would all be a real mess.

It's also funny how the Pope is the voice of God on the Earth, but with every new Pope, there seems to be a new decree. Can't God make up his/her/its mind? Why does God have to change its mind every time it gets a new voice?

[Vinifera7]

Well it just shows how hypocritical Christians are. On the one hand, they want to ignore the parts of their supposedly infallible text of God that don't suit their needs. Yet on the other hand they want to claim that the Bible is absolute, unchanging morality. You can't have it both ways!

[rakshamg]

Thanks for sharing this video, RabidApe!

[forthreisch]

Great Vid

[5amGordon]

rabidape, you are just a big bundle of win.

[Ansonidak]

Thanks for the vid and the link. Interesting stuff.

[Textra1]

Asking what we should put in the place of religion, if we are going to pull the rug out, is like asking what are we going to put in the place of cancer when we are cured of it.

It's also telling of people who ask it. They're saying, 'religion gives people comfort so if we remove it we need something to replace it.' Think about that. Religion gives comfort. I'm sure heroine gives comfort too. Do we need the theological equivalent of methadone to treat religious addiction?

Great Vid RabidApe

[rasmuswedin]

Well said!

[b4skin]

THIS should be taught in schools....no, wait HOMEshools.

[AzureFlameElk]

Ever see one of those bumper stickers?

"I will not vote for ANY politician who supports abortion."

Is that one of the most closed minded thing you could believe?

Because someone values a grown woman's right to decide what happens to her own body over the life of an unborn, unformed 'human', they don't care what else that person has to say.

Scenario:

Presidential candidates:

A - Pro-life, pro-rape, and pro-Jihad

B - Pro-choice, anti-rape, and peace activist.

ONOES! MUST VOTE A!

B R TEH BAD

[ctastrophe]

C - Bob Barr '08!

[JaMoond]

Religion is always there to hinder any scientific progress.

If people were to protest against small pox vaccination, dissection, and etc today, even the most religious people today would label them insane.

People protesting against ESC research and abortion today will be labeled insane in future.

[michamus]

What's funny is there is a massive growth of individuals who refuse vaccination for themselves and their children, for religious reasons.

[TETSUno1]

Good thing too, evolution gets to weed them out naturally :)

[easuter]

"Religion is always there to hinder any scientific progress."

Hehe, yeah, my thoughts exactly.

Imagine where our species would be today had it not been for the religious oppression that drove us into the dark ages....

[Gplex]

Great vid thks RabidAple.

[maurieer]

Thanks for posting RabidApe.

I`ve stated many times on YT that the baggage this present, personal man created god carries with it, has exposed it as one of humanities greatest hoaxes.

This baggage of heaven, hell, satan, original sin, the second coming etc., smells of the essence of delusional man and the hallucinatory plants digested to get his god delusion.

[cypherphage]

thanks for posting

[Noctokage]

Man, you've been cranking out videos like no tomorrow, keep it up. Was the rest of that interview any good?

[RabidApe]

"Man, you've been cranking out videos like no tomorrow, keep it up."

We'll see what happens, no promises. I'm sure part of it is just the "novelty" 'cause I've been gone so long.

And the semester JUST started.

We'll see.

:D

[Noctokage]

I'll be waiting patiently regardless.

[Jessiqua42]

Thank you, Queen Victoria! How fitting that the church used to be against anesthesia for birthing women- even for a cesarian section! What's the big deal?! Are they just against change? Are they just stubborn little anal-retentive dill-holes in hats?! WTF?

[klangeddon]

Living in Australia, religion is as influential as it appears to be in other countries. I suppose all these religous people are still afraid to eat from that 'tree of knowledge'.

Kind of funny why god would have put that in the middle of garden in the first place... lol

[klangeddon]

Err i meant 'isn't as influential' :P

[ulthea]

"Living in Australia, religion is as influential as it appears to be in other countries."

From what I have observed as another Aussie resident, compared to what I have witnessed of the US, I count myself very lucky. While both have a mixture of religions, the US seems somewhat forceful in their promotion of religion, where Aus remains quite impartial.

If anything, I see us heading in the same direction as Brits.

[klangeddon]

Yeah I agree, and that really isn't a whole lot better either.

[waugzoo]

Great clip

Thanks

[Jessiqua42]

Woah. Heavy title, man.

[RabidApe]

heavy subject.

:I

[RabidApe]

first

[Jessiqua42]

Ha! *jess jumps up and down with excitement over her "first" windfall*

[tubesusedtobeboring]

Neil Armstrong felt he had to say something elaborated, but he was wrong.