Frankly for you beginners, don't waste too much time "overthinking" your turns. Use your senses and balance and ride in "harmony" with your bike. When you are relaxed and confident you are in control, you'll be doing it right and it will all come naturally! Because the concept of countersteer seems counterintuitive, IMHO, it gets far to much attention than it needs, and will become second nature quickly. IMHO I think this discussion needlessly worries beginners!
can countersteering be used to make sharper turns at slow speeds? like in 1st gear? im noob. please humor me. you lift the left handle to steer right....right?
Motorcycling is dangerous, but so is life. The whole point is to reduce the risk as much as possible with proper safety equipment and education. My grandfather and his brother founded the company Paughco, which makes custom and obsolete parts for Harleys. I grew up around bikes and nothing ticks me off more than to see some dink riding a crotch rocket in a t-shirt, jean cutoffs, and ratty tennis-sneakers. I was always taught that you don't ride to the grocery store without wearing your leathers.
I didn't understand counter-steering that well until my MSF course instructors showed my group how to swerve. Watch videos on swerving and watch how the lean of the bike is 95% of the time controlling the direction of travel. Counter-steering just initiates lean. Just remember in a turn; slow, look, press, lean, roll (throttle).
Why doesn't anyone believe me when I tell them that you do have to do this to lay your bike over faster the guys that race street bikes do this I say that an they say no they don't they just lean WTF
When I first rode my friends GSXR600 I almost lost it in the neighborhood because the thing didn't want to turn hehehe Its an awkward feeling the first time you ride a bike and realize its not doing what you want it to.
ive watched so many of these videos i still dont understand. is what your saying .. for instance in a car... ( i drive) if turning right ( on a bend) , i would go to the left of the road and drive into the corner? so on a bike when turning right i would just push down on the right handle and when it leans then steer to the right into it?
i ride an r6 and i learned that when entering a curve i slow down( down shift ) countersteer and turn my head were i want to go and accelertrate through it is this right or wrong ?
@r6sanchez1 This is not wrong at all. The thing about counter steering is it is so natural most riders don't know they do it and many others swear it does not exist. At speed, counter steering is the only way to navigate a corner effective. Once you get more practised, you will be taking corners much faster and that is where understanding this technique is key to get the desired lean to make the corner. Many instructors don't teach it because it is a) natural and b) confusing to many.
As has been pointed out by several others, THIS IS NOT COUNTERSTEERING! It is a DIP manoeuver. Countersteering occurs above about 6mph, not below. Misleading title.
i see countersteering as as unbalancing of the bike's inherent stability, prior to the necessary "leaning over" that "banks" the bike into the turn. More to the point; a twin can be "kneed" over, a 4 cyl. requires that you "hang off", in order to get the center gravity working for you
I only got through the first 10 seconds before the video's first mistake. (I quit after that.) Read up on Gyroscopic-precession. Have a look at "Push Steering 101" for a crude but accurate explanation.
My understanding is that this is not "countersteering". Your video shows unbalance to initiate a lean. Countersteering will not work at low speeds becaue there's no gyroscopic precession. True countersteering will only work at higher speeds (maybe no lower than 20 mph).
Take a bicycle wheel and spin it while holding it away from your chest with both hands. Then, push on the right side axle. The top of the bicycle wheel will dip to the right. (push right, lean right). Same for left
@DFWKen Yes, it will because itis not all about gyroscopic precession- it is also about using teh bike's weight (or that component of it that acts inwardly in a corner) to lean it into the corner. Counter steering initiates a lean, by acombination of gyroscopic prescession and placement of wheels relative the centre of mass.
Even on a really light bicycle, wher the g.p. forces are low, it still works.
My submission is that the video is a perfect example of steering one direction (slightly) before leaning and steering in the other desired direction. I have over 175,000 miles on bicycles (CAT3 racer for 26 years) and understand the physics of that pretty well. But it is NOT countersteering. True countersteering is what is required to lean the motorcycle at higher speeds. There is no swerving involve in countersteering, Press right, lean right, turn right.
agreed with digitalcubano. this doesnt have to be scientifically rigorious, but might as well use a factual concept. basically, if you are going to explain it, explain it correctly!
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With all due respect, you guys need to brush up on your Physics. Specifically, I think you need to understand the concept of a Centripetal Force in an inertial frame before you go spouting off about how (a fictitious) Centrifugal Force "equals" something you call "Lean."
As I have explained numerous times, these videos are for beginners, not physicists. Most people understand the concept of centrifugal force, even if the term is technically somewhat dubious. I'm trying to make the concept understandable, not scientifically rigorous.
@IanJSeattle Sorry buy you should remove this video,you will confuse the beginners and they will crash.There is no counter steering in this video,only going left and right because the rider didnt need to lean the bike. If anyone wants to see a real countersteering and what it means is watch any motogp videos
@digitalcubano , in a FBD labeling the force vectors are arbitrary. Frankly, he could of labeled one of the vectors "Digitalcubano is a tool" and it is still fine.
This is an arguable point, but I'd say that you're always countersteering at least a little bit, whether you realize it or not. It's more a function of speed than anything else -- at low speed, you can steer by shifting weight, whereas at high speed, you pretty much need to countersteer if you're going to turn with any decisiveness.
@asw34wefdsf Even at low speeds on my 5 year old daughter's push bike, she HAS to countersteer to steer the bike. For a motorbike or bicycle travelling at anything more than walking speed, there is actually no other way to effectively control it. Especialy on a motorbike, as it is heavier, and your body weight has very little effect on its lean.
Since something like 85% of all motorcycle accidents are caused by cars, I'd say there is only so much any biker can do. Stay as far away from cars as possible, sure. But the simple fact is, motorcycles are infinitely more dangerous than cars, in that a bike crash is much more likely to be fatal than a car crash. In a car you have a metal box around you, air bags and seatbelts. On a bike, you are instantly into the meatgrinder, no matter what happens. Cars almost never fall over, either.
It seems 85% are idiots and can't ride a bike - most riders put other road users in danger by their lack of skill and complete stupidity. Excess speed, illegal overtakes, driving BETWEEN two lanes of cars etc. Bike riders put themselves in danger so can only blame themselves when THEY crash in to innocent road users and pedestrians. I scrape a lot of them off the road each year due to their poor riding skills, mainly men over 35. Bike riders are total iditos and need to respect others.
@deep22 yup urbex2007. you shouldn't generalize. I was riding down a 40 mph street at 50 mph and a FedEx truck was tailgating the hell out of me... not even more than a car away from my back wheel, that scared the shit out of me.
in some areas lane splitting aka "driving between two lanes of cars" is legal.
plus 85 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot.
That's a pretty reasonable thing for a mom to say. Motorcycling is dangerous. At the end of the day, though, life is a fatal condition, and comes with no end of risks. You must choose your risks, because you can't eliminate them.
@HockeyG33 Ive been riding for 37yrs and I wont let my kids ride bikes, what youve never had you never miss but once youve rode one you just my get hooked, good luck
I'm not saying you don't take risks. Sure, you can hit a fucking bottle at 70mph and take a fall, and yet at the same time I've avoided crashes on my bike that i never could have in my car. If you're carefull it doesn't have to be MORE dangerous.
it more dangerous than a car buddy, i was driving my ol' ladies car when an idiot in an F150 cut me off completely while i was doing about 45-50, totaled the car. if we were on my scoot we would problably both be dead right now. The best motorcyclist in the world cant keep the idiots around him from being stupid.
Lets see, i was driving 45-50 down a road where the speed limit is 45 on a nice sunny day at about 4 pm in the afternoon and he was sitting in a left turn lane facing the oposite direction and he took a left with about 10 feet between us and i ran into him, there was no chance to react. so all there was to it was he pulled out in front of me and i hit him. and short of staying home that day there was very little more i could have done to avoid it, like i said, just glad it wasnt the bike.
The theory is incorrect. Counter-steering at speed works by applying a turning moment to the front wheel, and using the gyroscopic precession of that wheel to tip the bike into the turn.
If that's the case, then I'd appreciate hearing your explanation for how ice skaters turn, and I can guarantee you it's not by turning their skates towards their intended direction of travel. I'd also like to see your demonstration of the strength of gyroscopic precession to lever hundreds of pounds over in the blink of an eye.
Gyroscopic precession is strong enough to flip an aerobatic aircraft end over end - here you need no more force than to tip the bike off its balance point. Looking at the length of the discussion here though, I can see that I'm not going to change any minds within the character count allowed :-)
The best way to see what happens is to get a bicycle wheel (even better if you can attach a couple of hand grips on each axle.) Have someone hold each axle so that the wheel is in front of them in the same orientation as the front wheel on a bike, with their hands as though on a bike's handle bars. Spin up the wheel for them, then get them to push one hand forward - the wheel leans into the opposite turn (hard enough indeed that you can't stop it!)
I agree that this happens, but it's not the only force involved in the process. If it were, we could have 0 degree steering rake and 0 trail. The levers acting through the steering pivot, even if the front wheel were replaced by an ice-skate with no rotating parts, would still exert enough force to flip the bike over in an instant.
Ice skaters have zero rake and trail :-) They begin the turn by learning into the corner, then push into the skate, but it is the leaning in that does it. On a bike you can lean in with upper body weight (which is how beginners turn the bike), swing the bike with the hips and keep the upper body upright (which offers better control, and ability to correct) or use gyroscopic precession on the front wheel to counter-steer into the turn - which is more precise, a bit quicker, and easier to correct.
BTW, I tried your experiment about the bike being completely stopped and turning the wheel, and you speak the truth on that. I wish it was rideable, but it's in need of a few parts atm. :) I suspect you're more and more correct and I'm more wrong. :)
Have you ridden a bike with a steering damper and one without? What model is you 500 lb "sport bike?"
I'm becoming closer and closer to thinking we are just talking about two side of the same coin. But it's still a little frustrating, and I did misspeak a couple times in my many posts. :)
my 500 lb bike is a Suzuki GS750, my other bike is a Kawasaki ZZR 600...as far as the 5 mph balancing act turning tighter to avoid going down seems like counter-steering but it's really not because it alone doesn't lead to a direction change nor are you really trying to change direction when your trying to prevent falling.
It's my knowledge, that as you go slower and slower, your corrective movements become larger just to keep your balance. This will continue up until the point, where if you have a steering lock (and ability to whip the bars around fast enough - meaning no steering damper), you'll eventually start hitting the lock; then you put your feet down and stop. You could theoretically initiate a turn by moving the bars all the way over, but I concede you would have to be going slow and be very quick.
A agree that you don't have to countersteer much at low speeds, because you are inherently unstable. But if your bike fell the way you turned it, you would not be able to keep your balance putting around at 5 mph, and we know you can.
"Lean does everything" "albeit it doesn't make sharp turns." Obviously, it doesn't do everything, and I have serious doubts whether you have ever consciously made a truly sharp turn in your life.
I can turn without using the bars, too. Leaing your body over counteracts the tendency for it to straighten up, but it does not initiate the turn. The hard "bump" you give the bike with your knees in the OPPOSITE direction of the turn is what initiates the hands-free turn. Try to notice what is normally subconscious, next time you ride. It could save your life one day.
As for "slapping the bars to the left," yes, initially the front end goes left. If you supress the automatic reaction to correct this action, you will tilt the bike right and then be able to turn sharply. Sounds like what you did was become afraid of falling and let your instinct to remain upright to take over.
So you unconsciously re-slapped the bars back to the right in order to stop falling to the right.
Or you're riding some kind of extreme trail bike. Again, you have not mentioned what kind of bike you ride and what the trail is. Or whether or not it has a steering damper.
As for what I ride I don't have a steering damper (as if that would change the laws of physics) but I have bicycle and sport bike and have been riding for a long time. As a rider I can't see how you even dare to whip full lock right and then whip left to make a left hand turn at < 10 mph. But as I said that only works with throttle steering to push the bike over else it'll fall where you turn the bars unless your super duper fast.
At low speed, I can and do makes turns very close to full lock, leaving just a tad leftover to straighten up, again. This takes some practice. To initiate a very sharp direction change from str8, doesn't unusually require a full lock movement, but it a distinct and increasingly large movement the slower you are going. It is not a "pressure" at low speed; it's a movement - quick, forceful, and deliberate. This initiates your
bike to fall over rapidly. Chicken out, and you correct your fall too soon. Delay too long, and your bike will run out of steering freedom (hit the lock) or will run out of front tire traction if you turn too hard.
You simply cannot maneuver a bike with a traditional steering damper with as great agility at low speed. A steering damper prevents quick movements. Honda makes an electronic steering damper that lessens effect, the slower the speed. I have never tried it, though.
All gxrs have a steering damper, as do many other modern sportsbikes. They're internal, and you don't see them unless you remove the fairing. But the difference is quite distinct in low speed handling.
The first time I test rode a GXR, I almost laid it down in the parking lot. The difference is night and day. At higher speed.. around 15mph, coincidentally, you don't notice the steering damper much, if at all.
WTH are you talking about, it's your theory that I had to go full lock one way then the other to counter-steer at slow ride speeds. Are you agreeing that you don't counter-steer at slow ride speeds? FWIW I can go full-lock all the way and still straighten the bike when necessary, throttle steering FTW. Steering damper doesn't change physics so the bike will still steer the same although it'll be more restrictive/limited more noticeable if you set the damper pretty stiff.
You bump your bike to make a turn by leaning? Your trying to hard to ride, I can turn just by unintentional leaning when the bike is straight and my hands are off the bars. On the flip it seems you who needs to realize the wasted time and effort trying to make the bike turn, your like one of those people who don't know about counter-steering and attempt to body steer the bike but the opposite train of thought.
"the bike will fall into the direction of the bars and not away from it." If you have any forward motion at all, and you turn the wheel far enough, this is clearly not true. There is still centriugal force to overcome, whether it requres a 30 degree lean or just a 1 degree lean... (Talking about bike+rider, not your body lean.) How much trail do you have on your bike? Is it a cruiser or a sport bike?
If your bike does, indeed, fall towards the direction the wheel is turned (at any given speed), there would be no way to keep your balance. It would be like riding a rear-steered bicycle, which is proven to be unridable.
The slower you are going the father you have to MOVE the bars, like a large TWITCH (Large, quick turn, then instantly back to center). Then depending on HOW tight you want to turn, you can even delay the front tire's natural tendency to follow the lean by fighting it, so that your lean drops even deeper.
At low speed, a DEEP LEAN might be a couple degees, only. You won't be dragging your knee, or anything.
What you have actually done is let the wheel turn itself.. following the lean of the bike. You did not actively turn it in the direction of the turn. If you actively whip the bars all the way right on a bicycle, going 5mph... you'll tip the bike to the left. You're options then are to correct by whipping left in order to right yourself, or to let the bike fall a bit, turn the wheel left, and hold a left turn radius.
So you can turn left by actively losing your balance and letting the wheel turn left. Or you can turn much sharper left by decisively countersteering.
If you can't regularly hit your steering lock while doing low speed, parking lot maneuvers, you haven't explored the maximum maneuverability of your motorcycle that is possible with active countersteering.
What happens is when you go really really slow, esp if you are actively decelerating, you start making constant corrections in order to stay upright. When you stop making some of those corrections in a subconsciously coordinated effort, you make a turn "automatically." A common view is that you make the bike turn by "leaning into the turn," or by "turning the bars in the same direction of the turn." But it's just not true.
The effect of the bike going slightly right before going left is to do with the fact that it is leaned or pivoted around the center of mass which is approximately an axis along the length of the bike at headlight height.
That's exactly right. There are a number of ways to get the bike to pivot about the center of mass, such as leaning your body, or countersteering. I'm just demonstrating that countersteering is possible.
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This isn't counter-steering. the guy pulled on the right handle and went right, hence, not COUNTER-steering. Counter-steering only happens at higher speeds (usually above 20mph). If he were counter-steering when he pushed the left handle forward as he did the gyroscopic force of the front wheel would have made the bike lean to the left causing the bike to "fall" to the left. Also the surface area of the edge of a tire is smaller than the center actually causing the turn.
Right, the countersteering happened the moment before I aimed the tire to the right. Didn't I say that several times in the video? Countersteering starts the lean. Then you steer into the turn, or the bike falls over, and that's true at all speeds.
I'm also gonna say that at that slow of a speed the rider can influence the bike with body movement and the rider in the video does lean towards the right to make the bike lean right and then turns right to end up going right.
The best how-to for this steering stuff is go with the flow, just like you learned to steer your bicycle once you lost the training wheels steering a motorcycle comes naturally except when logic (in a panic) takes over and attempts turn right to go right and vice-versa
The unfortunate thing about this video is that it was created to prove that countersteering is *possible* at very low speeds, not a *good idea*. People seem to misunderstand, and think that I want everyone to countersteer at low speeds. Not the case.
I'm with robmarcreed, it's a well known fact that you don't counter steer at slow speeds. Don't believe me then try this exercise, sit on your bike with it upright but not moving with the front wheel facing straight ahead now try to balance it so you can lift your feet off the ground for a moment--balances fairly evenly yes? Ok now while balanced straight up and down turn the bars the right or left, now the bike wants to fall in the direction the wheel is turned--hence no counter-steering
Have you actually done that? When I turn my wheel to the right (for example) while sitting still, the bike leans over to the left. I'd love to see video demonstrating the effect you're seeing.
it leans to the left only because your trying to keep it balanced. If you kept it vertical it would be off-balance and would fall to the right by gavity alone thus initiating the lean and turn. The lean you noticed is used at speed for counter-steering but at very slow speed ~12 MPH and below turning the bars where you want to go is all you need to make the turn. Have I tried it? All the time when I ride, ever stop with the handle bars turned?
I understand what I do. I don't see the effect you describe, of turning the wheel right at a stop and having the bike lean right. I get the opposite effect. Therefore, I'm curious to see video of how you're getting the effect you describe.
It sounds like we're miscommunicating. Countersteering is not leaning. Leaning is the result of countersteering. Leaning can also be achieved by other means, which are as effective and more easily controlled at low speeds.
True but counter-steering isn't in effect at such low speeds below ~15 mph. At speeds that slow when you turn the bars to the right the shift in the contact patch of the front wheel to the left causes the bike to become off-balance and right side heavy and since the bike was perfectly vertical at the moment of transition the bike will succumb to gravity and fall into the turn. I'd do a video but I don't have a camera but either way you can feel the weight when the bars are turned.
Sad to here it because I have the backing of MSF instructors, other riders, and from my experience physics all of which have shown me what I know. But I also believe fully understanding the physics of the bike isn't necessary to ride and often is misunderstood due to the lack of applying all forces to a theoretical situation. I also disagree with counter-steering aiding in picking up a dropped bike, whatever side the bars are turned ends up a bit heavier. Ever stop with your bars turned?
MSF instructors are taught rigid rules that overgeneralize. Countersteering on most motorcycles (without steering dampers) can be done down to a crawl, all the way down to the point where you have to go near lock-to-lock just to keep your balance.
Your motorcycle surely DOES have a threshhold where countersteering fails. You threw out
the number ~15mph. Two factors you did not mention are rate of acceleration and trail. The harder you are decelerating, the less effective countersteering becomes. Braking hard enough, you would lose the ability to countersteer at about 15mph, sure 'nuff. While decelerating, countersteering becomes decreasingly efficient, to the point where
you cannot straighten up (due to physical limitations on how fast you can physically turn the wheel back and forth and the limitation of the steering lock).. You can only continue your current radius, or decrease it.. up until the point your bike succumbs to gravity and falls on its side.
But at a constant speed or under acceleration, you motorcycle better be able to countersteer. Otherwise it's got way too much trail to be able to handle worth a darn.
I suppose it IS possible that with enough trail you could steer at low speeds without countersteering.. But the obvious questions is, how then is it possible to keep this theoretical bike balanced without using your feet when running at those same low speeds? Turning too hard to the right? Just turn left? What if you are at the exact speed where countersteering "stops" and contact patch balance? You can't steer at all?
oh brother the saga continues, I wish people would just get on a bike, any bike, even one without a motor and go 5 MPH and turn the bars to the right and come back and tell me the bike almost made a left...if you do it right I won't hear from you period end of story. As far as bike balance you have to figure in gyroscopic precession and rider center of balance. You over think this, if there wasn't a point where counter-steering stops the above scenario wouldn't work and you'd fall off the bike.
left, you whip the bars to the left to keep your balance. With no input at all, you would fall. Refrain some of those inputs in a coordinated way, and you turn "magically," by what most people would say is "leaning with
Sorry, screwed up my post... Well, what I'm trying to say is... I kindly disagree with your point of view. Try these two exercises and I'm sure you will see where I'm coming from: Get on a bike and paint a curved line on the ground. Ride at any constant speed over the curvy line. To keep your wheel on the line, you will find you make several countersteering corrections.
exercise 2: Ride a ten speed up a really steep hill, to the point where you start to stall. Try to stay upright as long as possible. Towards the end, you'll find yourself whipping the bars back and forth in order to keep your balance. When you fall left, you whip the bars hard and far to the left.. otherwise you would turn left or fall. When you start falling to the right, you whip the bars hard and far to the right. This is countersteering in order to stay str8. Same applies to make a turn.
If the bike turned only the direction the bars are turned, the front wheel would always be parallel to the line, OR when correcting a deviation, it would turn TOWARDS the line. You'll find that the bigger the correction, the more you turn the wheel AWAY from the line. Even MORE so at lower speed.
Also in light of my experiment where I almost crashed into some grass trying it your way you need to remember why counter-steering at speed works, centrifugal force being one of the forces at work requires speed so no or very little speed = no or very little centrifugal force so at low speed if the centrifugal force is less than the gravity pulling the bike to the inside of the turn then the bike will fall into the direction of the bars and not away from it.
Well I just tried your theory and it never did work, turning the handlebar left no matter how slightly never did make the bike turn right even when I leaned to the right anticipating the turn...almost crashed trying it your way so I've just proven with scientific experimentation counter-steering doesn't work at low speed. Also don't confuse chasing a bikes balance point with counter-steering, your turning towards the fall is an attempt to balance the bike not change direction.
Well, there's your problem. Not SLIGHTLY. At low speed you have to whip the bar like 45 degrees and VERY QUICKLY. And you're not HOLDING the bars there... you are whipping them there temporarilty, THEN turn the direction you actually intend to turn to hold your balance/turning radius.
Leaning does NOTHING to turn a bike by itself. Notice you can ride a perfectly str8 line whether hanging of either side of a bike or sitting str8. It helps you maintain a turn and keep your bike more vertical (better contact patch/shock absorption). At lower speeds, you generally lean OPPOSITE to the direction of turn, anyway. IE you keep your body upright while throwing the bike left/right, when going around cones at 5-10 mph.
For try riding a scribed curved line, even at low speed. If riding a hotwheels or tricycle, when your tires is slighlty off line, you simply turn it TOWARDS the line. On a bicycle, you have to turn the wheel FURTHER AWAY from the line (temporarily), in order to change your direction.
AND DO NOT change your speed while doing this. Stay at a constant speed. If on a motorcycle, put your choke on, slightly, or increase your idling rate for this experiment and do not use the throttle. On a bike, try to pedal at a constant rate. DO NOT stop pedalling when trying to change direction, as is habitual for most people who do not know how to countersteer.
it sounds like you need to try this stuff yourself, you aren't gonna be slow riding most motorcycles with the idle higher than normal with the clutch engaged.
1st off, I don't need to try this stuff, I do it every day. FYI, my VFR cruises at 35 mph on the choke, alone. My CBR600 could cruise maybe 15 mph (less low end torque.) What planet are you from?
And if you mean "low speed," yes, it works on low speed with most bikes, too. Just put it in first gear, dude, and put it up after your moving, not to get it off the line, obviously.
Once in motion, it takes only enough energy to overcome friction/air resistance to keep up a constant speed. If your choke/idle can't keep your bike moving at 5 mph on flat ground, I find that incredibly unbelievable.
35 mph is too fast to slow ride as is 15 mph, try counter-steering riding slower than most people walk. Push right, bike doesn't go right ala counter-steering isn't in effect. Normal idle in 1st gear is above 5 mph so any higher is gonna be faster. The closest thing to what your explaining is throttle steering, your basically using the bikes acceleration to push the bike over to fall away from the turn. That can be done but it's wasted effort like not counter-steering at highway speed.
Lean does everything, I can turn a bike at 30 mph with lean alone (not even touching the handlebars of a 500 lb bike) albeit it doesn't make sharp turns so it's not recommended for most turns.
Tried that as best as I could without intending to throw myself off the bike still didn't work the bike followed the handlebars, slap em left the bike starts going left, slap em back to the right the bike abruptly goes right.
too much is made of it. it's pure and simple intuition. it would be worse going into corners thinking that we need to countersteer. Just let your intuition deal with it.
Yeah i get counterstearing... I love how he says ride "within you limits"... If people never rode outside of their limits - they would never learn how to properly ride a motorcycle
Thanks, glad you understand my reasoning. I agree with you, one has to push limits to grow, but I'd have to explain too much to say that in this video.
i dont know why CS is such a debated topic, all it does at any speed is initiate the lean, if u are CS all through a turn it means u just have taken it a bit too wide and are tightening the turn as u progress through the turn. If done right it will drastically imporve your handling, reduce your swerve reaction time, and reduce rider fatigue.
I disagree that it is the same at higher speeds, for the simple reason that at higher speeds, one maintains pressure on the inside grip (countersteer) throughout the turn rather than quickly switching to having the bars turn in the direction of the turn after only a momentary countersteer, as was shown in this slow-speed video. In other words, the countersteer continues throughout the turn at higher speeds. This is, however, a great video demo for the low-speed turn!
On my bike (a Ninja 250), I couldn't actually get going fast enough that I had to maintain any pressure through a turn, just as a point of reference. The need to countersteer all the way through a turn is highly dependent upon both speed and frame geometry.
If you check with the Countersteering 101 video, you'll see that I mention the phenomenon of countersteering through the whole turn.
Hmmm... I can't dispute that, as I have only ridden one bike (R 1100 RT) since my MSF course. This bike has the Telelever front suspension. Some posters here claim that CS is always only a momentary thing to get the bike leaned over, and that after that, you steer in the direction of the turn. Not true for me, as I apply continuous CS throughout any turn not made in a parking lot. I am now quite curious about how much the fact that I have the Tele front suspension may have to do with this...
Here is an experiment that I would like to see someone do: Using a variety of bikes (obviously including ones with telelever and duolever front suspensions, as well as standard fork-suspension bikes), mount a very sensitive transducer that measures steering head angle in degrees, and monitor this for a variety of turns at varying speed. Show the readout of this transducer simulaneously with one or two views of the bike in motion. Might be very instructive.
I've thought about doing something like this, using a pointer, with a video camera recording it. I discarded the pointer idea as being too coarse.
What you'd find is that almost every turn starts with a little countersteer, then aims into the turn. When you countersteer within a turn, you're not turning the wheel to the outside, you're just resisting the bike's self-righting inclination. That is, if you let off pressure, the wheel would turn into the lean and pick up the bike.
Short and to the point. Good. But pls add in an angle from the top looking down at the handlebars and the road, so we can see the physical application, and not the mechanics of countersteering as viewed from the wheel and the road.
Frankly for you beginners, don't waste too much time "overthinking" your turns. Use your senses and balance and ride in "harmony" with your bike. When you are relaxed and confident you are in control, you'll be doing it right and it will all come naturally! Because the concept of countersteer seems counterintuitive, IMHO, it gets far to much attention than it needs, and will become second nature quickly. IMHO I think this discussion needlessly worries beginners!
Another nice Seattleite M/C guy
scojoseattle 2 weeks ago
Probably get this a lot, but that looks like my 89' ZX750R. :-)
An thank you for making counter-steer clear, and why it is not good to slow down in a turn.
chiefkyle1 1 month ago
learn the difference between centrifugal and centripetal force retard
nolie94 1 month ago
@nolie94
Such a nice comment!
scojoseattle 2 weeks ago
@scojoseattle awh, so the tough guy does have a soft spot..im glad to see that =)
IdigAponyONtheROOF 2 weeks ago
@IdigAponyONtheROOF
Thank you my Brother! Peace and Blessings
scojoseattle 2 weeks ago
This is NOT counter steering... It's just balancing.
Counter steering is when you SLIGHTLY turn the handlebars the opposite direction of where you want to go (at speed, about 15mph+).
blissful0ne 1 month ago
can countersteering be used to make sharper turns at slow speeds? like in 1st gear? im noob. please humor me. you lift the left handle to steer right....right?
Redmilitiageneral 1 month ago
in other words bikers don't be the first to countersteer on the moon
dirtydogdogness 2 months ago
0:15 he drew a small penis
dalotel 2 months ago
Comment removed
dalotel 2 months ago
Motorcycling is dangerous, but so is life. The whole point is to reduce the risk as much as possible with proper safety equipment and education. My grandfather and his brother founded the company Paughco, which makes custom and obsolete parts for Harleys. I grew up around bikes and nothing ticks me off more than to see some dink riding a crotch rocket in a t-shirt, jean cutoffs, and ratty tennis-sneakers. I was always taught that you don't ride to the grocery store without wearing your leathers.
CaribbeanCharacter1 2 months ago
finalyyyy a video that actualy made me understand what they are talking about
austin1156 5 months ago
SO in a way *your falling into the turn"?
idontlike101 5 months ago
@idontlike101 and then your bike balance it out automatic putting the steer into the corner instead of away :)
ptuku 2 months ago
I didn't understand counter-steering that well until my MSF course instructors showed my group how to swerve. Watch videos on swerving and watch how the lean of the bike is 95% of the time controlling the direction of travel. Counter-steering just initiates lean. Just remember in a turn; slow, look, press, lean, roll (throttle).
sux2bu37 6 months ago
Counter steering actually comes naturally to most people. I've been doing it for years and didn't realize it until now.
evan3452 7 months ago
Why doesn't anyone believe me when I tell them that you do have to do this to lay your bike over faster the guys that race street bikes do this I say that an they say no they don't they just lean WTF
blaze7191 8 months ago
gaaaah there is no such thing as centrifugal force!
MeestaNoName 8 months ago
@MeestaNoName If you are the rider you can feel the centrifugal force. If you are a person looking at the rider it's just the centripetal force.
NotnaRed 4 months ago
When I first rode my friends GSXR600 I almost lost it in the neighborhood because the thing didn't want to turn hehehe Its an awkward feeling the first time you ride a bike and realize its not doing what you want it to.
polakatl 8 months ago
ive watched so many of these videos i still dont understand. is what your saying .. for instance in a car... ( i drive) if turning right ( on a bend) , i would go to the left of the road and drive into the corner? so on a bike when turning right i would just push down on the right handle and when it leans then steer to the right into it?
DELUSiON2020 8 months ago
You dont need this if you know how to ride a bicycle.
zlyable 8 months ago 2
i ride an r6 and i learned that when entering a curve i slow down( down shift ) countersteer and turn my head were i want to go and accelertrate through it is this right or wrong ?
r6sanchez1 9 months ago
@r6sanchez1 This is not wrong at all. The thing about counter steering is it is so natural most riders don't know they do it and many others swear it does not exist. At speed, counter steering is the only way to navigate a corner effective. Once you get more practised, you will be taking corners much faster and that is where understanding this technique is key to get the desired lean to make the corner. Many instructors don't teach it because it is a) natural and b) confusing to many.
SMSBJM1981 8 months ago
As has been pointed out by several others, THIS IS NOT COUNTERSTEERING! It is a DIP manoeuver. Countersteering occurs above about 6mph, not below. Misleading title.
PaKdlunch 10 months ago
@PaKdlunch The Dip manoeuver happens because of counter steering!
SMSBJM1981 8 months ago
so what
Michalgsxr 11 months ago
Why are the top rated comments ALWAYS about the same th1ng?
ForceRecon198 1 year ago
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isabellaaudrk 1 year ago
i see countersteering as as unbalancing of the bike's inherent stability, prior to the necessary "leaning over" that "banks" the bike into the turn. More to the point; a twin can be "kneed" over, a 4 cyl. requires that you "hang off", in order to get the center gravity working for you
TomPauley 1 year ago
bewernia101 is full of himself
TomPauley 1 year ago
I only got through the first 10 seconds before the video's first mistake. (I quit after that.) Read up on Gyroscopic-precession. Have a look at "Push Steering 101" for a crude but accurate explanation.
bewernia 1 year ago
what? you don't counter steer at super low speeds...only at faster speeds to you counter steer
musiciskey777 1 year ago
its actually centripetal force....
Bears24Football 1 year ago
My understanding is that this is not "countersteering". Your video shows unbalance to initiate a lean. Countersteering will not work at low speeds becaue there's no gyroscopic precession. True countersteering will only work at higher speeds (maybe no lower than 20 mph).
Take a bicycle wheel and spin it while holding it away from your chest with both hands. Then, push on the right side axle. The top of the bicycle wheel will dip to the right. (push right, lean right). Same for left
DFWKen 1 year ago
@DFWKen Yes, it will because itis not all about gyroscopic precession- it is also about using teh bike's weight (or that component of it that acts inwardly in a corner) to lean it into the corner. Counter steering initiates a lean, by acombination of gyroscopic prescession and placement of wheels relative the centre of mass.
Even on a really light bicycle, wher the g.p. forces are low, it still works.
Badassbok 1 year ago
@Badassbok
My submission is that the video is a perfect example of steering one direction (slightly) before leaning and steering in the other desired direction. I have over 175,000 miles on bicycles (CAT3 racer for 26 years) and understand the physics of that pretty well. But it is NOT countersteering. True countersteering is what is required to lean the motorcycle at higher speeds. There is no swerving involve in countersteering, Press right, lean right, turn right.
DFWKen 1 year ago
agreed with digitalcubano. this doesnt have to be scientifically rigorious, but might as well use a factual concept. basically, if you are going to explain it, explain it correctly!
NPquiksilver 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
With all due respect, you guys need to brush up on your Physics. Specifically, I think you need to understand the concept of a Centripetal Force in an inertial frame before you go spouting off about how (a fictitious) Centrifugal Force "equals" something you call "Lean."
digitalcubano 1 year ago
As I have explained numerous times, these videos are for beginners, not physicists. Most people understand the concept of centrifugal force, even if the term is technically somewhat dubious. I'm trying to make the concept understandable, not scientifically rigorous.
IanJSeattle 1 year ago 46
@IanJSeattle Sorry buy you should remove this video,you will confuse the beginners and they will crash.There is no counter steering in this video,only going left and right because the rider didnt need to lean the bike. If anyone wants to see a real countersteering and what it means is watch any motogp videos
ZIBARTANTARSUSLU 1 year ago
@digitalcubano you sound like an arrogant d-bag....with all due respect.
shoused 1 year ago
@digitalcubano , in a FBD labeling the force vectors are arbitrary. Frankly, he could of labeled one of the vectors "Digitalcubano is a tool" and it is still fine.
Navila1 1 year ago
Do you always need to countersteer? or is it only for smooth bends?
asw34wefdsf 1 year ago
This is an arguable point, but I'd say that you're always countersteering at least a little bit, whether you realize it or not. It's more a function of speed than anything else -- at low speed, you can steer by shifting weight, whereas at high speed, you pretty much need to countersteer if you're going to turn with any decisiveness.
IanJSeattle 1 year ago 9
@asw34wefdsf Even at low speeds on my 5 year old daughter's push bike, she HAS to countersteer to steer the bike. For a motorbike or bicycle travelling at anything more than walking speed, there is actually no other way to effectively control it. Especialy on a motorbike, as it is heavier, and your body weight has very little effect on its lean.
Badassbok 1 year ago
GOO VID M8;)
vladsalonzo 2 years ago
Since something like 85% of all motorcycle accidents are caused by cars, I'd say there is only so much any biker can do. Stay as far away from cars as possible, sure. But the simple fact is, motorcycles are infinitely more dangerous than cars, in that a bike crash is much more likely to be fatal than a car crash. In a car you have a metal box around you, air bags and seatbelts. On a bike, you are instantly into the meatgrinder, no matter what happens. Cars almost never fall over, either.
bobgee1999 2 years ago
It seems 85% are idiots and can't ride a bike - most riders put other road users in danger by their lack of skill and complete stupidity. Excess speed, illegal overtakes, driving BETWEEN two lanes of cars etc. Bike riders put themselves in danger so can only blame themselves when THEY crash in to innocent road users and pedestrians. I scrape a lot of them off the road each year due to their poor riding skills, mainly men over 35. Bike riders are total iditos and need to respect others.
urbex2007 2 years ago
"Bike riders are total iditos and need to respect others..."
Yeah, I hope those total idiots learn to respect people... at least a little bit more respect than you seem willing to dole out.
What a nonsensical generalization for all motorcyclists. 100% of people who make up statistics off the top of their head are full of crap.
deep22 2 years ago 3
@deep22 yup urbex2007. you shouldn't generalize. I was riding down a 40 mph street at 50 mph and a FedEx truck was tailgating the hell out of me... not even more than a car away from my back wheel, that scared the shit out of me.
in some areas lane splitting aka "driving between two lanes of cars" is legal.
plus 85 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot.
KiLLaBYTe1 2 years ago
my mom wont let me get my M license, she says its too dangerous :(
HockeyG33 2 years ago
That's a pretty reasonable thing for a mom to say. Motorcycling is dangerous. At the end of the day, though, life is a fatal condition, and comes with no end of risks. You must choose your risks, because you can't eliminate them.
IanJSeattle 2 years ago 19
it is, to some extent. and unless you are willing to face that danger you shouldn't get on a bike.
its also inconvenient and more difficult that driving a car
SoldierCyfix 2 years ago
hey kip thrying dont give up
primoisrael 2 years ago
I used to live in the Philippines and a lot of people ride motorcycles there.
I asked my mom if i could get one and she said no it's too dangerous but she then said maybe.
I asked my dad and he said "oh yeah sure! Just remember to get a cheap good one for your 1st"
zeroxstrife250 2 years ago
@HockeyG33 Ive been riding for 37yrs and I wont let my kids ride bikes, what youve never had you never miss but once youve rode one you just my get hooked, good luck
2wheelsteve 1 year ago
@HockeyG33 tell your mom she's not the boss of you and to give you the money to go and buy that bike!
me2ontube 1 year ago
@HockeyG33 this video is more dangerous then a motorcycle itself.
ZIBARTANTARSUSLU 1 year ago
@HockeyG33 you are 24 years old and your mom doesn't let you get M license :D
oi565 4 months ago
I take offence that in the end credits it says Motorcycling is Dangerous. Poor rating given
thehowlingterror 3 years ago
i agree
josephmccolley 3 years ago 7
are you guys idiots? of course riding a motorcycle is dangerous. if you think that's wrong you should never be allowed near a bicycle.
djessenz 2 years ago 28
it's no more dangerous than a car. If you drive like a fucking moron then you crash like a fucking moron. Drive well stay well.
josephmccolley 2 years ago 5
lol...it is so much more dangerous than driving a car. 1 GIANT difference, you can't fall off your car at 70mph.
I ride everyday. If you don't think you are taking risks by riding a motorcycle you are very mistaken.
devilbourne 2 years ago 32
I'm not saying you don't take risks. Sure, you can hit a fucking bottle at 70mph and take a fall, and yet at the same time I've avoided crashes on my bike that i never could have in my car. If you're carefull it doesn't have to be MORE dangerous.
josephmccolley 2 years ago
I totally agree
devilbourne 2 years ago
it more dangerous than a car buddy, i was driving my ol' ladies car when an idiot in an F150 cut me off completely while i was doing about 45-50, totaled the car. if we were on my scoot we would problably both be dead right now. The best motorcyclist in the world cant keep the idiots around him from being stupid.
ihatecivics7 2 years ago 13
How does an F-150 cut you off?
Where you in his blindspot?
Where you not leaving enough of a space cushion?
Where you going to slow/fast for conditions?
realtorman2 2 years ago
Lets see, i was driving 45-50 down a road where the speed limit is 45 on a nice sunny day at about 4 pm in the afternoon and he was sitting in a left turn lane facing the oposite direction and he took a left with about 10 feet between us and i ran into him, there was no chance to react. so all there was to it was he pulled out in front of me and i hit him. and short of staying home that day there was very little more i could have done to avoid it, like i said, just glad it wasnt the bike.
ihatecivics7 2 years ago
you won't realize that you do this after you can ride normally, it's already in your "blood" hehe...
Workerstar1 3 years ago 2
The theory is incorrect. Counter-steering at speed works by applying a turning moment to the front wheel, and using the gyroscopic precession of that wheel to tip the bike into the turn.
checkboard 3 years ago
If that's the case, then I'd appreciate hearing your explanation for how ice skaters turn, and I can guarantee you it's not by turning their skates towards their intended direction of travel. I'd also like to see your demonstration of the strength of gyroscopic precession to lever hundreds of pounds over in the blink of an eye.
IanJSeattle 3 years ago
Gyroscopic precession is strong enough to flip an aerobatic aircraft end over end - here you need no more force than to tip the bike off its balance point. Looking at the length of the discussion here though, I can see that I'm not going to change any minds within the character count allowed :-)
checkboard 3 years ago 2
The best way to see what happens is to get a bicycle wheel (even better if you can attach a couple of hand grips on each axle.) Have someone hold each axle so that the wheel is in front of them in the same orientation as the front wheel on a bike, with their hands as though on a bike's handle bars. Spin up the wheel for them, then get them to push one hand forward - the wheel leans into the opposite turn (hard enough indeed that you can't stop it!)
checkboard 3 years ago 2
I agree that this happens, but it's not the only force involved in the process. If it were, we could have 0 degree steering rake and 0 trail. The levers acting through the steering pivot, even if the front wheel were replaced by an ice-skate with no rotating parts, would still exert enough force to flip the bike over in an instant.
IanJSeattle 3 years ago
Ice skaters have zero rake and trail :-) They begin the turn by learning into the corner, then push into the skate, but it is the leaning in that does it. On a bike you can lean in with upper body weight (which is how beginners turn the bike), swing the bike with the hips and keep the upper body upright (which offers better control, and ability to correct) or use gyroscopic precession on the front wheel to counter-steer into the turn - which is more precise, a bit quicker, and easier to correct.
checkboard 3 years ago 2
wow i have been doing that on my bike and i didn't even realize
Kward107 3 years ago
This vid helped me drift my R1 @ 80+ mph
MrWilliamsWalter 3 years ago
try at home i dunno. that looks pretty dangerous
srsc23 3 years ago
Fantastic vid!! helped heaps..
chrisytofa 3 years ago
BTW, I tried your experiment about the bike being completely stopped and turning the wheel, and you speak the truth on that. I wish it was rideable, but it's in need of a few parts atm. :) I suspect you're more and more correct and I'm more wrong. :)
kl27x 3 years ago
Have you ridden a bike with a steering damper and one without? What model is you 500 lb "sport bike?"
I'm becoming closer and closer to thinking we are just talking about two side of the same coin. But it's still a little frustrating, and I did misspeak a couple times in my many posts. :)
kl27x 3 years ago
my 500 lb bike is a Suzuki GS750, my other bike is a Kawasaki ZZR 600...as far as the 5 mph balancing act turning tighter to avoid going down seems like counter-steering but it's really not because it alone doesn't lead to a direction change nor are you really trying to change direction when your trying to prevent falling.
killer2600 3 years ago
If it falls where you turn it, how do you keep your balance? Does your body automatically reverse all it's automatic balancing responses?
kl27x 3 years ago
It's my knowledge, that as you go slower and slower, your corrective movements become larger just to keep your balance. This will continue up until the point, where if you have a steering lock (and ability to whip the bars around fast enough - meaning no steering damper), you'll eventually start hitting the lock; then you put your feet down and stop. You could theoretically initiate a turn by moving the bars all the way over, but I concede you would have to be going slow and be very quick.
kl27x 3 years ago
A agree that you don't have to countersteer much at low speeds, because you are inherently unstable. But if your bike fell the way you turned it, you would not be able to keep your balance putting around at 5 mph, and we know you can.
kl27x 3 years ago
"Lean does everything" "albeit it doesn't make sharp turns." Obviously, it doesn't do everything, and I have serious doubts whether you have ever consciously made a truly sharp turn in your life.
kl27x 3 years ago
You can SOOO keep a bike going 5mph with the idle, unless your gearing is grossly tall. Even then you should be able to adjust it DOWN.
kl27x 3 years ago
I'm sooo NOT talking about throttle steering. That's why I suggest removing throttle completely from the equation.
kl27x 3 years ago
Is there anyone in the universe that walks 15 mph?
kl27x 3 years ago
I can turn without using the bars, too. Leaing your body over counteracts the tendency for it to straighten up, but it does not initiate the turn. The hard "bump" you give the bike with your knees in the OPPOSITE direction of the turn is what initiates the hands-free turn. Try to notice what is normally subconscious, next time you ride. It could save your life one day.
kl27x 3 years ago
As for "slapping the bars to the left," yes, initially the front end goes left. If you supress the automatic reaction to correct this action, you will tilt the bike right and then be able to turn sharply. Sounds like what you did was become afraid of falling and let your instinct to remain upright to take over.
kl27x 3 years ago
So you unconsciously re-slapped the bars back to the right in order to stop falling to the right.
Or you're riding some kind of extreme trail bike. Again, you have not mentioned what kind of bike you ride and what the trail is. Or whether or not it has a steering damper.
kl27x 3 years ago
As for what I ride I don't have a steering damper (as if that would change the laws of physics) but I have bicycle and sport bike and have been riding for a long time. As a rider I can't see how you even dare to whip full lock right and then whip left to make a left hand turn at < 10 mph. But as I said that only works with throttle steering to push the bike over else it'll fall where you turn the bars unless your super duper fast.
killer2600 3 years ago
At low speed, I can and do makes turns very close to full lock, leaving just a tad leftover to straighten up, again. This takes some practice. To initiate a very sharp direction change from str8, doesn't unusually require a full lock movement, but it a distinct and increasingly large movement the slower you are going. It is not a "pressure" at low speed; it's a movement - quick, forceful, and deliberate. This initiates your
kl27x 3 years ago
bike to fall over rapidly. Chicken out, and you correct your fall too soon. Delay too long, and your bike will run out of steering freedom (hit the lock) or will run out of front tire traction if you turn too hard.
kl27x 3 years ago
You simply cannot maneuver a bike with a traditional steering damper with as great agility at low speed. A steering damper prevents quick movements. Honda makes an electronic steering damper that lessens effect, the slower the speed. I have never tried it, though.
All gxrs have a steering damper, as do many other modern sportsbikes. They're internal, and you don't see them unless you remove the fairing. But the difference is quite distinct in low speed handling.
kl27x 3 years ago
The first time I test rode a GXR, I almost laid it down in the parking lot. The difference is night and day. At higher speed.. around 15mph, coincidentally, you don't notice the steering damper much, if at all.
kl27x 3 years ago
WTH are you talking about, it's your theory that I had to go full lock one way then the other to counter-steer at slow ride speeds. Are you agreeing that you don't counter-steer at slow ride speeds? FWIW I can go full-lock all the way and still straighten the bike when necessary, throttle steering FTW. Steering damper doesn't change physics so the bike will still steer the same although it'll be more restrictive/limited more noticeable if you set the damper pretty stiff.
killer2600 3 years ago
You bump your bike to make a turn by leaning? Your trying to hard to ride, I can turn just by unintentional leaning when the bike is straight and my hands are off the bars. On the flip it seems you who needs to realize the wasted time and effort trying to make the bike turn, your like one of those people who don't know about counter-steering and attempt to body steer the bike but the opposite train of thought.
killer2600 3 years ago
"the bike will fall into the direction of the bars and not away from it." If you have any forward motion at all, and you turn the wheel far enough, this is clearly not true. There is still centriugal force to overcome, whether it requres a 30 degree lean or just a 1 degree lean... (Talking about bike+rider, not your body lean.) How much trail do you have on your bike? Is it a cruiser or a sport bike?
kl27x 3 years ago
If your bike does, indeed, fall towards the direction the wheel is turned (at any given speed), there would be no way to keep your balance. It would be like riding a rear-steered bicycle, which is proven to be unridable.
kl27x 3 years ago
The slower you are going the father you have to MOVE the bars, like a large TWITCH (Large, quick turn, then instantly back to center). Then depending on HOW tight you want to turn, you can even delay the front tire's natural tendency to follow the lean by fighting it, so that your lean drops even deeper.
At low speed, a DEEP LEAN might be a couple degees, only. You won't be dragging your knee, or anything.
kl27x 3 years ago
By actively countersteering, even at 5mph, you can change direction acutely and on demand WITHOUT slowing down.
Note, again, you can't steer for crap at low speeds if your bike has a steering damper, and you will not be able to see what I'm talking about.
kl27x 3 years ago
What you have actually done is let the wheel turn itself.. following the lean of the bike. You did not actively turn it in the direction of the turn. If you actively whip the bars all the way right on a bicycle, going 5mph... you'll tip the bike to the left. You're options then are to correct by whipping left in order to right yourself, or to let the bike fall a bit, turn the wheel left, and hold a left turn radius.
kl27x 3 years ago
So you can turn left by actively losing your balance and letting the wheel turn left. Or you can turn much sharper left by decisively countersteering.
kl27x 3 years ago
If you can't regularly hit your steering lock while doing low speed, parking lot maneuvers, you haven't explored the maximum maneuverability of your motorcycle that is possible with active countersteering.
kl27x 3 years ago
What happens is when you go really really slow, esp if you are actively decelerating, you start making constant corrections in order to stay upright. When you stop making some of those corrections in a subconsciously coordinated effort, you make a turn "automatically." A common view is that you make the bike turn by "leaning into the turn," or by "turning the bars in the same direction of the turn." But it's just not true.
kl27x 3 years ago
The effect of the bike going slightly right before going left is to do with the fact that it is leaned or pivoted around the center of mass which is approximately an axis along the length of the bike at headlight height.
redcappra 3 years ago
That's exactly right. There are a number of ways to get the bike to pivot about the center of mass, such as leaning your body, or countersteering. I'm just demonstrating that countersteering is possible.
IanJSeattle 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
This isn't counter-steering. the guy pulled on the right handle and went right, hence, not COUNTER-steering. Counter-steering only happens at higher speeds (usually above 20mph). If he were counter-steering when he pushed the left handle forward as he did the gyroscopic force of the front wheel would have made the bike lean to the left causing the bike to "fall" to the left. Also the surface area of the edge of a tire is smaller than the center actually causing the turn.
robmarcreed 3 years ago
Right, the countersteering happened the moment before I aimed the tire to the right. Didn't I say that several times in the video? Countersteering starts the lean. Then you steer into the turn, or the bike falls over, and that's true at all speeds.
IanJSeattle 3 years ago
I'm also gonna say that at that slow of a speed the rider can influence the bike with body movement and the rider in the video does lean towards the right to make the bike lean right and then turns right to end up going right.
The best how-to for this steering stuff is go with the flow, just like you learned to steer your bicycle once you lost the training wheels steering a motorcycle comes naturally except when logic (in a panic) takes over and attempts turn right to go right and vice-versa
killer2600 3 years ago
Yep, definitely right. Go with the flow.
The unfortunate thing about this video is that it was created to prove that countersteering is *possible* at very low speeds, not a *good idea*. People seem to misunderstand, and think that I want everyone to countersteer at low speeds. Not the case.
IanJSeattle 3 years ago
You have no clue what you are talking about. The guy in the video does.
Shut up and listen.
Digitalbumpin 3 years ago
I'm with robmarcreed, it's a well known fact that you don't counter steer at slow speeds. Don't believe me then try this exercise, sit on your bike with it upright but not moving with the front wheel facing straight ahead now try to balance it so you can lift your feet off the ground for a moment--balances fairly evenly yes? Ok now while balanced straight up and down turn the bars the right or left, now the bike wants to fall in the direction the wheel is turned--hence no counter-steering
killer2600 3 years ago
Have you actually done that? When I turn my wheel to the right (for example) while sitting still, the bike leans over to the left. I'd love to see video demonstrating the effect you're seeing.
IanJSeattle 3 years ago
it leans to the left only because your trying to keep it balanced. If you kept it vertical it would be off-balance and would fall to the right by gavity alone thus initiating the lean and turn. The lean you noticed is used at speed for counter-steering but at very slow speed ~12 MPH and below turning the bars where you want to go is all you need to make the turn. Have I tried it? All the time when I ride, ever stop with the handle bars turned?
killer2600 3 years ago
I understand what I do. I don't see the effect you describe, of turning the wheel right at a stop and having the bike lean right. I get the opposite effect. Therefore, I'm curious to see video of how you're getting the effect you describe.
It sounds like we're miscommunicating. Countersteering is not leaning. Leaning is the result of countersteering. Leaning can also be achieved by other means, which are as effective and more easily controlled at low speeds.
IanJSeattle 3 years ago
True but counter-steering isn't in effect at such low speeds below ~15 mph. At speeds that slow when you turn the bars to the right the shift in the contact patch of the front wheel to the left causes the bike to become off-balance and right side heavy and since the bike was perfectly vertical at the moment of transition the bike will succumb to gravity and fall into the turn. I'd do a video but I don't have a camera but either way you can feel the weight when the bars are turned.
killer2600 3 years ago
I disagree. Countersteering works down to a crawl.
It's not the best way to do it. It's not a good idea. But it works. That's the entire point of this video.
Of course I can't isolate the countersteering element of my turn, but it was countersteering that leaned the bike over and put me into the turn.
I'm sorry if you disagree with me, but countersteering works at all speeds. I demonstrate it in this video at 3 mph.
IanJSeattle 3 years ago
Sad to here it because I have the backing of MSF instructors, other riders, and from my experience physics all of which have shown me what I know. But I also believe fully understanding the physics of the bike isn't necessary to ride and often is misunderstood due to the lack of applying all forces to a theoretical situation. I also disagree with counter-steering aiding in picking up a dropped bike, whatever side the bars are turned ends up a bit heavier. Ever stop with your bars turned?
killer2600 3 years ago
MSF instructors are taught rigid rules that overgeneralize. Countersteering on most motorcycles (without steering dampers) can be done down to a crawl, all the way down to the point where you have to go near lock-to-lock just to keep your balance.
Your motorcycle surely DOES have a threshhold where countersteering fails. You threw out
kl27x 3 years ago
the number ~15mph. Two factors you did not mention are rate of acceleration and trail. The harder you are decelerating, the less effective countersteering becomes. Braking hard enough, you would lose the ability to countersteer at about 15mph, sure 'nuff. While decelerating, countersteering becomes decreasingly efficient, to the point where
kl27x 3 years ago
you cannot straighten up (due to physical limitations on how fast you can physically turn the wheel back and forth and the limitation of the steering lock).. You can only continue your current radius, or decrease it.. up until the point your bike succumbs to gravity and falls on its side.
But at a constant speed or under acceleration, you motorcycle better be able to countersteer. Otherwise it's got way too much trail to be able to handle worth a darn.
kl27x 3 years ago
I suppose it IS possible that with enough trail you could steer at low speeds without countersteering.. But the obvious questions is, how then is it possible to keep this theoretical bike balanced without using your feet when running at those same low speeds? Turning too hard to the right? Just turn left? What if you are at the exact speed where countersteering "stops" and contact patch balance? You can't steer at all?
kl27x 3 years ago
oh brother the saga continues, I wish people would just get on a bike, any bike, even one without a motor and go 5 MPH and turn the bars to the right and come back and tell me the bike almost made a left...if you do it right I won't hear from you period end of story. As far as bike balance you have to figure in gyroscopic precession and rider center of balance. You over think this, if there wasn't a point where counter-steering stops the above scenario wouldn't work and you'd fall off the bike.
killer2600 3 years ago
left, you whip the bars to the left to keep your balance. With no input at all, you would fall. Refrain some of those inputs in a coordinated way, and you turn "magically," by what most people would say is "leaning with
kl27x 3 years ago
Sorry, screwed up my post... Well, what I'm trying to say is... I kindly disagree with your point of view. Try these two exercises and I'm sure you will see where I'm coming from: Get on a bike and paint a curved line on the ground. Ride at any constant speed over the curvy line. To keep your wheel on the line, you will find you make several countersteering corrections.
kl27x 3 years ago
exercise 2: Ride a ten speed up a really steep hill, to the point where you start to stall. Try to stay upright as long as possible. Towards the end, you'll find yourself whipping the bars back and forth in order to keep your balance. When you fall left, you whip the bars hard and far to the left.. otherwise you would turn left or fall. When you start falling to the right, you whip the bars hard and far to the right. This is countersteering in order to stay str8. Same applies to make a turn.
kl27x 3 years ago
If the bike turned only the direction the bars are turned, the front wheel would always be parallel to the line, OR when correcting a deviation, it would turn TOWARDS the line. You'll find that the bigger the correction, the more you turn the wheel AWAY from the line. Even MORE so at lower speed.
kl27x 3 years ago
Also in light of my experiment where I almost crashed into some grass trying it your way you need to remember why counter-steering at speed works, centrifugal force being one of the forces at work requires speed so no or very little speed = no or very little centrifugal force so at low speed if the centrifugal force is less than the gravity pulling the bike to the inside of the turn then the bike will fall into the direction of the bars and not away from it.
killer2600 3 years ago
Well I just tried your theory and it never did work, turning the handlebar left no matter how slightly never did make the bike turn right even when I leaned to the right anticipating the turn...almost crashed trying it your way so I've just proven with scientific experimentation counter-steering doesn't work at low speed. Also don't confuse chasing a bikes balance point with counter-steering, your turning towards the fall is an attempt to balance the bike not change direction.
killer2600 3 years ago
Well, there's your problem. Not SLIGHTLY. At low speed you have to whip the bar like 45 degrees and VERY QUICKLY. And you're not HOLDING the bars there... you are whipping them there temporarilty, THEN turn the direction you actually intend to turn to hold your balance/turning radius.
kl27x 3 years ago
Leaning does NOTHING to turn a bike by itself. Notice you can ride a perfectly str8 line whether hanging of either side of a bike or sitting str8. It helps you maintain a turn and keep your bike more vertical (better contact patch/shock absorption). At lower speeds, you generally lean OPPOSITE to the direction of turn, anyway. IE you keep your body upright while throwing the bike left/right, when going around cones at 5-10 mph.
kl27x 3 years ago
For try riding a scribed curved line, even at low speed. If riding a hotwheels or tricycle, when your tires is slighlty off line, you simply turn it TOWARDS the line. On a bicycle, you have to turn the wheel FURTHER AWAY from the line (temporarily), in order to change your direction.
kl27x 3 years ago
AND DO NOT change your speed while doing this. Stay at a constant speed. If on a motorcycle, put your choke on, slightly, or increase your idling rate for this experiment and do not use the throttle. On a bike, try to pedal at a constant rate. DO NOT stop pedalling when trying to change direction, as is habitual for most people who do not know how to countersteer.
kl27x 3 years ago
it sounds like you need to try this stuff yourself, you aren't gonna be slow riding most motorcycles with the idle higher than normal with the clutch engaged.
killer2600 3 years ago
1st off, I don't need to try this stuff, I do it every day. FYI, my VFR cruises at 35 mph on the choke, alone. My CBR600 could cruise maybe 15 mph (less low end torque.) What planet are you from?
kl27x 3 years ago
And I have "cruised" on the freeway at 75mph by turning up the idle screw on my VFR.
kl27x 3 years ago
And if you mean "low speed," yes, it works on low speed with most bikes, too. Just put it in first gear, dude, and put it up after your moving, not to get it off the line, obviously.
kl27x 3 years ago
Once in motion, it takes only enough energy to overcome friction/air resistance to keep up a constant speed. If your choke/idle can't keep your bike moving at 5 mph on flat ground, I find that incredibly unbelievable.
kl27x 3 years ago
35 mph is too fast to slow ride as is 15 mph, try counter-steering riding slower than most people walk. Push right, bike doesn't go right ala counter-steering isn't in effect. Normal idle in 1st gear is above 5 mph so any higher is gonna be faster. The closest thing to what your explaining is throttle steering, your basically using the bikes acceleration to push the bike over to fall away from the turn. That can be done but it's wasted effort like not counter-steering at highway speed.
killer2600 3 years ago
I already tried and proved the bike will go in the direction it's turned at slow speed.
killer2600 3 years ago
Lean does everything, I can turn a bike at 30 mph with lean alone (not even touching the handlebars of a 500 lb bike) albeit it doesn't make sharp turns so it's not recommended for most turns.
killer2600 3 years ago
Tried that as best as I could without intending to throw myself off the bike still didn't work the bike followed the handlebars, slap em left the bike starts going left, slap em back to the right the bike abruptly goes right.
killer2600 3 years ago
pre o-level physics
Ams11121 3 years ago
Excellent video and article and I found the comments to be very helpful as well. Thank you.
WiiAreDrunk 3 years ago
too much is made of it. it's pure and simple intuition. it would be worse going into corners thinking that we need to countersteer. Just let your intuition deal with it.
EviL666MonkeY 3 years ago
Yeah, agree... Most people don't even know they're countersteering. It comes...
TheKinetic 3 years ago
Ohhh, I get it. I never really understood countersteering, I just needed to see it up close... through the internet.
jesseissorude 3 years ago
Yeah i get counterstearing... I love how he says ride "within you limits"... If people never rode outside of their limits - they would never learn how to properly ride a motorcycle
macca1088 4 years ago
Yeah, but if you push your limits unreasonably or without knowing what you're doing, you die. Which message should I give to new riders?
IanJSeattle 4 years ago
Very well... I see your point... I would have just said ride sensibly... I suppose mostly new riders would be watching this anyway... nice video btw
macca1088 4 years ago 2
Thanks, glad you understand my reasoning. I agree with you, one has to push limits to grow, but I'd have to explain too much to say that in this video.
IanJSeattle 4 years ago
i dont know why CS is such a debated topic, all it does at any speed is initiate the lean, if u are CS all through a turn it means u just have taken it a bit too wide and are tightening the turn as u progress through the turn. If done right it will drastically imporve your handling, reduce your swerve reaction time, and reduce rider fatigue.
o0WestCoastin0o 4 years ago 2
Yep. If you are conscious of countersteering, and are aware that it's the right way and how and when to do it, your riding will definitely improve.
motodude1 3 years ago
You explained and demonstrated it so well - thanks
voxxer1 4 years ago 4
I disagree that it is the same at higher speeds, for the simple reason that at higher speeds, one maintains pressure on the inside grip (countersteer) throughout the turn rather than quickly switching to having the bars turn in the direction of the turn after only a momentary countersteer, as was shown in this slow-speed video. In other words, the countersteer continues throughout the turn at higher speeds. This is, however, a great video demo for the low-speed turn!
zephagypawa 4 years ago
On my bike (a Ninja 250), I couldn't actually get going fast enough that I had to maintain any pressure through a turn, just as a point of reference. The need to countersteer all the way through a turn is highly dependent upon both speed and frame geometry.
If you check with the Countersteering 101 video, you'll see that I mention the phenomenon of countersteering through the whole turn.
IanJSeattle 4 years ago
Hmmm... I can't dispute that, as I have only ridden one bike (R 1100 RT) since my MSF course. This bike has the Telelever front suspension. Some posters here claim that CS is always only a momentary thing to get the bike leaned over, and that after that, you steer in the direction of the turn. Not true for me, as I apply continuous CS throughout any turn not made in a parking lot. I am now quite curious about how much the fact that I have the Tele front suspension may have to do with this...
zephagypawa 4 years ago
Here is an experiment that I would like to see someone do: Using a variety of bikes (obviously including ones with telelever and duolever front suspensions, as well as standard fork-suspension bikes), mount a very sensitive transducer that measures steering head angle in degrees, and monitor this for a variety of turns at varying speed. Show the readout of this transducer simulaneously with one or two views of the bike in motion. Might be very instructive.
zephagypawa 4 years ago
I've thought about doing something like this, using a pointer, with a video camera recording it. I discarded the pointer idea as being too coarse.
What you'd find is that almost every turn starts with a little countersteer, then aims into the turn. When you countersteer within a turn, you're not turning the wheel to the outside, you're just resisting the bike's self-righting inclination. That is, if you let off pressure, the wheel would turn into the lean and pick up the bike.
IanJSeattle 4 years ago
I had trouble with countersteering but although this makes more since it is still hard for me to do, my body doesnt want to do it
hugbear27 4 years ago
WOw nice going man. You explained it so well i almost didn't understand.
arolderi 4 years ago
Short and to the point. Good. But pls add in an angle from the top looking down at the handlebars and the road, so we can see the physical application, and not the mechanics of countersteering as viewed from the wheel and the road.
hokymerej 4 years ago
Good thought. I'll have to find a location where I can do that without having to rent a crane. ;)
IanJSeattle 4 years ago
well explained
Donegaldan 4 years ago
hi grate vid, I wouldt like to see more about counter steering at hige speeds, and easy guide to set your suspension
straksi 4 years ago
Working on it. Offer suggestions on what you want to see.
IanJSeattle 4 years ago
make more!
jreed8721 4 years ago
awesome!
jreed8721 4 years ago