"Irresistible grace" is so far beneath the way the Holy Spirit convicts us and draws us to Jesus that calling IG "zapping" highlights the fact that it is an _unworthy_ understanding of how the grace of God really works. It is not like lightning striking, probably where the idea of "zapping" came from.
By "zapping," he doesn't mean the _actual_ way God interacts with man through His Spirit, but that the way that Calvinists replace it with "irresistable grace" is like zapping since it is like a bolt of lightning that either hits you or not, no interaction involved. Either you get "zapped" or you don't. The real way God interacts with us is so far superior to it that the "irresistable" version deserves a contemptuous word like "zapping."
Jesus didn't teach that we are born again first, then believe. If you read John 1 without an agenda of proving Calvinism (as a person who is obeying the Spirit and word of God, to seek Him and the salvation He provides, would do), it says that to those who receive Him is given the right to become the sons of God, which is so clearly meant to imply causation. The salvation is all of the Lord, we don't "cause" it that way, but receiving it through faith is how it becomes our own.
As much as it is ridiculed and reviled as "weak," God does woo us as well as convict us of sin, through the Holy Spirit. And He tells us in His word to believe, receive, trust, seek. All of those commands of God tell us that, in some way, they must be possible. The same Holy Spirit that draws us to Jesus Christ enables us to overcome dead in sins and trespasses and any other obstacle to belief, if we _will_. _Whosoever will_ may come and drink freely of the water of life--that is _anyone_.
They teach that only through an act of "sovereign" regeneration--it makes it sound like they are really on God's team, all this talk about "sovereingty"--is it possible to receive Him. We are born-again _first_, before faith, according to them. It is as if God takes us like the robots we supposedly are, opens up our backs, and puts a new battery pack and software (firmware?) chip in us; then and only then are able to respond. But this is not Biblical & it isn't what believers have experienced.
Calvinists teach that man has no choice, and that effectively eliminates the way that God _does_ "lovingly come to us first." I have discussed this with them online and they absolutely revile that we are drawn to Him by the Holy Spirit. No, they say, we are regenerated without so much as receiving it, by an act of God which we have no knowledge of or way of receiving, therefore they are the ones who are suggesting that God does not draw us; he fixes us without any interaction; we have no choice.
The point is that He doesn't "zap" anybody. I have read more Calvinists reviling "prevenient grace" in such a shockingly blasphemous way than I ever thought I would. They are the ones talking about the very personal way God reaches and convicts us in a way that makes it seem unholy. If they have been drawn to the Lord by His Spirit, why do they talk like that?
Geisler does talk of "zapping", unfortunately, in this video - I wish he hadn't, for the reasons given. I find it very surprising indeed (to put it mildly !) that a Calvinist should oppose "prevenient grace": many affirm it very clearly. Maybe some are not as theologically careful as others, or are "hyper"-Calvinists. It's good we can discuss this though. Some Calvinists on YT say appealing to paradox is a bad thing - unlike many Calvinist theologians. ........
As to the "why" of why people speak so - one can be drawn to Him in that way, without having the ability to articulate the theology of the Divine action by which one is drawn. Not everyone finds theology attractive - but we don't need to be able to know the fine detail of God's dealings with us, or of ours with Him, for them to be real & saving & life-giving. These realities is still realities, however ultimately mysterious they may be to us.
This talk of God "zapping" people is very regrettable - it over-simplifies how God graciously turns our hearts to Himself. And it endangers the great truth rthat we cannot turn to Him as *our* God unless He lovingly comes to us first. He is always first, in all things. "The Christian's Great Interest" is a Puritan classic that sets out all of this very clearly. To say God "zaps" His elect, is to make the Love by which He acts as their Saviour utterly impersonal.
If God promised that whosoever believed in Jesus would not perish but have eternal life, that is how it comes about. Jesus died for us, securing our salvation, and we believe it, making it our own. Those aren't just empty words, and they are not an illusion. God doesn't give us illusions; He deals with us in truth.
The problem with saying they're just two aspects of the same thing is that we start out in need of salvation and a salvation is given us, the good news of Jesus bearing our sins on the cross. We need to be saved, and so the question of how we get saved. There is a cart-before-the-horse involved; they don't just happen, but they happen according to promises God made concerning salvation.
Why can't faith and salvation have a *logical order* thus: salvation, then faith - but, a *chronological order*, thus: faith, then salvation ? Or even thus: faith & salvation as two aspects of the same thing, divided only conceptually, but not in experience ? Is there a real contradiction here, or just the illusion of one ? The Bible is bigger than the ways we arrange its ideas in our doctrinal systems & orthodoxies, & so is God.
@gwposey1 Regeneration means born-again, doesn't it? All over the NT, we are told to believe and be saved. John 3, the "ye must be born again" chapter, says eternal life is by faith.
@bmd200 Amen! What people don't know is that God is kind; He wants us to be saved. All we have to do is receive Him, and He takes care of the rest, bringing our hearts into agreement with His will. He gave His life on the cross, the most a man can do for His friends. He came not for the righteous, but for sinners.
Lazarus was physically dead, but not so dead that he couldn't hear the voice of God calling Him forth. Norm Geisler gives an even better example: Adam was not physically dead, but was definitely dead in sins and trespasses when God found him in the garden after his sin, and he heard God, spoke to Him and responded to Him, all things that this philosophy says you cannot do. The Bible shows us that this is not true.
If Jesus didn't come for the righteous but for sinners, how could He have come for the pre-regenerated? No, he came to call _sinners_ to repentance, dead in trespasses and sins, but not dead in such a way that they can't hear the Spirit of God and respond. Geisler is preaching from the Bible, not the Calvinist playbook. Believe what God actually says, not a system that explains it away.
(KJV) Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician
Jesus said that the things of God were hidden from the wise and prudent but revealed unto babes. I don't think babes can or do sagatiously pick apart "ordo salutis" as if it was a Parker House roll. I think that babes believe what He said, as He said it, and regeneration and salvation happen together.
I guarantee you that Norm Geisler believes that we are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God. I guarantee that he is grateful for that, too, to a God who wants all people to receive His gift, although not all will.
It would have been interesting if Norman finished reading Ephesians 2:8 @ the 3:10 mark of this video. It would have exposed his first argument against total depravity as false. Because he does not seem to want to read it I will put up here:
8." For by grace you have been saved through faith. AND THIS IS NOT YOUR OWN DOING; IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD, NOT A RESULT OF WORKS, SO THAT ONE MAY BOAST."
I cannot personally trust a man who only reads half of a verse to prove a point.
@TheObservationDeck - it really doesn't change anything. Calvinists believe that the gift is faith. But the passage clearly teaches that the gift is salvation.
Even with this faith topic, it's easy to prove Calvinism is wrong. I love proving "Once Saved, Always Saved" IS WRONG. 1 Tim. 4:1, 5:12, 6:10,21 say that Christians can depart from, cast off, or stray from the faith. No way are we saved, regenerated, born again before we have faith. John 1:12 shows free will to get saved. Total depravity and all other 5 points are wrong. With no faith to begin with we are lost. God does not cause us to have faith. We choose to. Faith comes by hearing God's word.
Calvinists do not believe that salvation comes before faith. Calvinists believe that REGENERATION comes logically prior to faith. Regeneration is merely one component in the Ordo Salutis (order of salvation). Salvation involves much more than just that. Regeneration is the act of the Holy Spirit whereby one is born again (the wind moves where it wishes; John 3) and God removes the heart of stone and puts in a heart of flesh; Ezekiel 36. He saves us by the washing of regeneration; Titus 3
@smburney Yes. I was wondering how a man could get Calvinism so wrong and still be treated like an expert. Calvinist teach that we are saved by grace through faith.
@nextluther12 Man I am so sick and tired of 'calvinists' copping out with this 'detractors are misrepresenting calvinism'. What exactly is being misrepresented?
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones If you go to my channel and watch the latest vid. I address Geisler's misrepresentation of Toltal Depravity directly. I will also address the other issues when I get to them in my presentation. Also, Dr. White addreses Geisler's mis-represtations in The Potter's Freedom.
Dr. Geisler makes a straw-man argument. He claims that monergists are saying that Regeneration=Salvation. But this is not what Reformed theology teaches. The Bible teaches the 'ordo salutis' ("order of salvation"), which includes:
Effectual Calling, Regeneration, the gifts of Repentance and Faith, Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification...These are all part of the Order of Salvation; there is not just one part.
I beg to differ. There's no straw-man here, unless you're arguing/proposing that one can be "born again" without being saved. I've heard/seen multiple Calvinists make the argument of rebirth/regeneration/born again as happening prior (either temporally or logically) to even being able to believe. This REQUIRES that they either believe that the born again are NOT (yet) saved, or that salvation precedes faith.
Either way, there's no leg to stand on, either logically or Biblically.
The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. (Eze 37:1-2).
...and, lo, they were very dry.
...and, lo, they were very dry.
I'm amused that "Dr." Geisler labels the followers of the truth of the Gospel "Calvinists". That's a horrible correlation. But, he's a ThD.
@apollos6640 RE:SHEEP are the ELECT AFTER they've been found IN CHRIST) And you have scriptures to back this up? NONE EXIST. Your view makes these verses, LIES Joh_10:27 Joh_10:16, Act 13:48, Eph 1:4. YOUR VIEW means, that Christ could NOT be100% sure who His sheep are until the end of the age., and would also deny Christ being omniscient in knowing all things. You would rather worship at the idol of man's "free will" than to admit that God is 100% sovereign in saving WHO He wants to or NOT.
@shteve77 Don't let a Calvinist tell you you can't use Isaiah 5 as DOCTRINE because it contradicts & destroys their False theology;
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
No Mr. Calvinist it doesn't say "All types" of Scriptures
@apollos6640 . So I was right Jesus died for MY sins on the cross Joh 15:13.. (STRONG'S G1588 ELECT) eklektos; select, by impl. favorite: Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Titus 1:1.. for the sake of the faith of God's elect.., Luk 18:7 And will not God give justice to his elect, Thayer Definition: 1a) chosen by God. You remain inconsistent RE: by MY FAITH, REALLY. Rom 4:24-Rom 5:2 Through HIM..you deny that "FAITH" is a gift of God Eph 2:8?
"For this commandment which I command you today is NOT TOO DIFFICULT for you, NOR IS IT OUT OF REACH. "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart... I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So CHOOSE LIFE in order that you may live, you and your descendants,"
@apollos6640.. Deut. 30:11-19... Tell me PLEASE, just HOW MANY CHOOSE LIFE? did not God say. 1Ki 19:18 Rom_11:4 But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." it was GOD who did the choosing...
@rbmath "Tell me PLEASE, just HOW MANY CHOOSE LIFE?"
Irrelevant. I don't care if they ALL chose DEATH,, this passage REFUTES your calvinian doctrine of TOTAL DEPRAVITY and magnifies their God-given ability to "Call on the name of the Lord" and so be saved as Paul quotes this very passage,"EVERYONE who CALLS on the name of the LORD Will Be Saved"
You're the OPPOSER of the Word of GOD declaring to fallen sinners that THEY CANNOT call on God and so be saved due to YOUR doctrine of TOTAL DEPRAVITY
@apollos6640 RE:this passage REFUTES your ... NO it does NOT. what does Christ say..Joh_8:34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. Rom 3:23.6:20 .. Gen.6:5, 8:21, Jer.17:9, Mark.7:21, Rom.3:9 - Rom.3:1.. RE: God-given ability to "Call on the name of the Lord" ... NO... John.6:44,65. God ALONE grants repentance 2Ti 2:25. man CANNOT repent on his own..
@apollos6640 Yes, God commands all men everywhere to repent, yet in Calvinism this statement is pointless. The lost cannot repent, because the "loving" God of Calvinism not only doesn't want them to repent, but deliberately withholds from them the ability to repent so they will be lost and burn forever in Hell (as He wants them to).
And for the elect, there is no need to tell them to repent, because God Irresistibly makes them born again and causes them to repent. They have no choice. What LIES!
@shteve77 .. You really hate the idea of God's sovereignty in choosing who He wants to save or not too... Scripture clearly shows that men are dead in sin, hostile to God, cannot submit to God's law, has a deceitful heart, all the thoughts of his heart is evil, can only follow his sinful nature, is a slave to sin, cannot set himself free. but you, with all this against man still thinks man can choose God, when scriptures clearly do NOT support your view.
@rbmath If men are dead in sin, hostile to god, cannot submit to god's law, has a deceitful heart, has evil thoughts, can only follow his sinful nature, is a slave to sin and cannot set himself free... YOUR GOD PREDESTINED MANKIND TO BE THIS WAY. Be consistent...
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Rom_9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones RE:Liberal, Humanist, Catholic, Unitarian..... I already know that you have a different gospel and god of your own making so I'm not surprised that you reject the one true God....
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Mat_7:6 "Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you. BYE....
@rbmath Also, if you're so wild about this passage, why even bother going on this anti-homosexual crusade of yours? Are you answering back to god: why did you make homosexuals? Seriously, your theology is so full of holes it is preposterous.
@rbmath For someone who accuses Catholicism of coming up with all kinds of non-scriptural and un-biblical phrases and terms, calvinists sure have their own set of outrageous double-speak... Thanks anyway, but I rather worship God through the sweet visage of the Mother Mary, than through this methodological, mechanical, mathematical and misanthropical system called calvinism.
@rbmath Still no explaination of Isa5? Yes I know you say it's a song, but kidly explain what those verse actually are saying? You seem very good in dimissing a passage and saying what it "can't" mean but you are unable to say what they DO mean?
@rbmath "....YOUR view lead to weak god who tries his very best to save ALL people but cannot, your view means that cross of Christ did NOT save anyone personally it just made people save-able.."
U are declaring that you've been SAVED Since Jesus' DEATH & RESURRECTION.
Your theology logically teaches that u were born a SAVED sinner, In fact, being one of Gods "ELECT" means your sins have NEVER seperated you from GOD, because you just said, Christ saved YOU "Personally" then & there.
@apollos6640.. Eph 1:1-11... I'm saying that God/Jesus knows who His sheep, are from the foundation of the world and sent His Son to die for His sheep, because the sins of the sheep had separated us from God, after all Jesus DID SAY...John 10:15,27.. I can say,Jesus died for my sins on the cross Joh 15:13.. YOU CANNOT SAY THIS, because the cross to you only makes people savable...
@rbmath you should refuse to submit to the Reformed teachings of MEN where they obviously contradict the Scriptures while simultaneously making GOD to be the Author & Finisher of ALL Sin, cloaking these blasphemous doctrines under the umbrella of "Gods SOVEREIGNTY". God doesn't need you patrolling His SOVEREIGNTY, nor does He need you to add an element of FORCE to His FREE GIFT of ETERNAL LIFE to human beings created in His Image, or teaching them that they've been PREDESTINED for Damnation
@rbmath, I asked you a question FIRST, PLEASE be mature and answer it. You delight in being evasive don't you LOL. I'm STILL WAITING. I'll ask a 3rd time.
Why does God send out a "General Calling" of Repentance to DEAD sinners at the bottom of the Ocean (R.C Sproul), whom Jesus NEVER died for to begin with, who have ALSO been PREDESTINED for the Lake of Fire "BEFORE having done anything either good or bad"??
@apollos6640 AGAIN I ask... Do you think Jesus can FAIL to perfectly fulfill the will of God the Father? Joh 6:37-40 ... I LOSE NOTHING... Heb 7:25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. Are YOU saying Jesus CANNOT perfectly OBEY the will of God the Father?
@apollos6640 ... God has not told me or anyone else all the finer points of His plans or reasons. I just know know what the divinely inspired scriptures have to say....YOUR view lead to weak god who tries his very best to save ALL people but cannot, your view means that cross of Christ did NOT save anyone personally it just made people save-able.. YOUR view denies God Divine right as the master potter to do what HE PLEASES...
@rbmath... Believing in God is "Works salvation"? Have you been studying Piper, Sproul, Washer, Driscoll or White? Perhaps you should focus more on the Word of God. Meditate on Rom 4, as PAUL himself Influenced by the Holy Spirit has already rebuked you. Submitting to God into repentance is NOT a work.
Jesus declared in Luke 17:10 "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’"
@apollos6640 RE:Why does God send out a "General Calling".... God has NOT told me. So I do not know why.. but I do know that your views are really your own making you know eisegesis
@apollos6640 . Do you think that God owes you and answer to all your questions? you do know that when Job questioned God that God DID NOT ANSWER Job the why of of his suffering...Job 38:1-
@apollos6640 He avoids questions he can't answer, then pretends He has answered them. A clear sign that he knows he is in error but willfully refuses to admit it.
Good question! God is "Love" scripture says. What a 'loving' God the God of Calvinism is, He creates most people to be vessels of destruction before they have ever done anything good or bad, He then 'offers' them salvation and commands them to repent all the while making sure they won't repent because He only created them for hell!
@shteve77@apollos6640 ... I'm amazed that "Christians" I ASSUME you are,(YES I CALLED YOU CHRISTIANS EVEN THOUGH I STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH YOUR VIEWS) would rather lie and say that I have avoided your questions when in fact I answered them. You obviously did not did not like my answers so you chose to lie and said that I did not answer them or avoided them... Rev 21:8..
@rbmath No, it is I that am amazed that you would resort to lies. You have NEVER, I repeat NEVER given an explaination for Isa5:3-4. The only thing you have said is that it is a song and shouldn't be used for doctrine which is a complete cop-out. You have never answered my question asking if God did everything He could to make the people good fruit. If I am wrong them please prove it and paste your "answer" so that everyone can read it........
@shteve77: HERE ARE MY ANSWERS THAT I SAVED: the sad thing for you is with your view you need to say about Isa 46:10is all wrong, after all YOUR god failed to do everything he could as shown in Isa 5:3-4? because you refuse to accept the answer that man has NO libertarian free will, I NEVER said ignore any scriptures. I gave you my understanding that make a lot more sense than your view which would make Isa 46:10 a lie
@rbmath Yes I have read your "answers". Now kindly point out which part actually talks about what Isa5:3-4 is saying, and which part answers my question "did God do everything He could to make these people good fruit?"
The closest thing you gave to "an answer" is "Isa 5 is a SONG, Songs contain poetry and are not meant to be a theological statement". This is rubbish and a cop-out so you can avoid the passage.
@shteve77 RE: Yes I have read your "answers"... You're answer shopping, because you do not like the answers I gave. You would rather have scripture contradict themselves than admit that your wrong. It was answered ENOUGH...
@rbmath Imagine if you quoted a verse from the Psalms and I just said, "Oh, but that is a song, we can't base any docrtine on that"! What rubbish. You have not answered, and everyone who reads these comments will know it.
I have asked over and over, Could God have done anything more to make the people of Israel good fruit???????
@shteve77 RE:"Oh, but that is a song, we can't base any docrtine on that... EXACTLY WHERE DID I SAY THIS IN THE CONTEXT YOU QUOTE.. THIS IS WHAT I SAID...((Isa 5 is a SONG, Songs contain poetry and are not MEANT to be a theological statement WHEN other scriptures on the issue ARE A LOT MORE CLEAR such as Isa 46:10.)) The bible being the Divinely Inspired word of God CANNOT contradict itself.. YOUR VIEW of Isa 5 leads contradictions in scriptures.
@rbmath Firstly, it is not MY view of Isa4, I am plainly reading the text. God himself says of His own people that He did everything He could to make them good fruit. That doesn't contradict anything else in the Bible, which also teaches that God wants all men to be saved(1Tim2:4) and that the Holy Spirit Convicts the WORLD of sin and judgement.(Jn16) The only thing it 'contradicts' is your Calvinism understanding. Have you considered it's Calvinism that leads to contradictions?
@shteve77 RE:(1Tim2:4)... Why do ignore the context of the chapter? 1Ti 2:1-4 ... "thanksgivings be made for all people",... Tell me please are you praying for every single person on earth all 6 billion of them? or does Paul clarify what he means.. "for kings and all who are in high positions" so its ALL KINDS OF MEN...
@rbmath Is there any reason a person can't pray for all men? Do you have to know everyone by name to pray for them?
The only "kind" of men Paul singles out are rulers, and why? So that with good rulers we may live peacful lives.
Then He goes on to say "who wants ALL MEN to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for ALL MEN.". Notice nowhere does it say "all kinds"!
@shteve77 I have no problems if songs contain doctrine, its when our understanding of the passage in questions LEADS TO CONTRADICTIONS IN SCRIPTURE (UNLESS YOUR WILL TO ADMIT THAT THE DIVINELY INSPIRED SCRIPTURES DO CONTRADICT IN WHICH CASE WE HAVE A DIFFERENT ISSUE) than our/your understand is WRONG.
@rbmath If you think that my 'reading' of this "song" in Isa5 is wrong then kindly explain what God is wanting us to learn from those verses and what they actually mean. It is not a good method of Bible study to simply say that a passage appers to contradict what I understand so I will ignore what that passage teaches. What does it teach?
@rbmath No, not allready answered. Allready and continually ignored is more like it!
You can't just dismiss a passage as a song. God put Isa5 in His Word for a reason. Obviously you think I am reading the meaning of the text wrongly. So again I ask would you kindly explain what God is wanting us to learn from those verses and what they actually mean?
@shteve77 here they are @shteve77 . Isa 5 is a SONG, Songs contain poetry and are not meant to be a theological statement when other scriptures on the issue are a lot more clear such as Isa 46:10.. 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' you thinking God can fail as implied by your question, naturally implies a contradiction in your thinking between the two. God tried all he could but failed So Isa 46:10 must be a lie not to mention another lie in John 6:37
@shteve77@shteve77. Again its a SONG, A song contains poetry, its NOT meant to be theological statements, thinking so ignores the context and ignores the other scriptures that I have already pointed out. and from a HUMAN point of view, humans being in a fallen nature and Israel given the benefits of God's laws. from a human point of view God did a lot for Israel. PLUS GOD DID KEEP FOR HIMSELF 7,000 people see NASB 1Ki 19:18, Rom 11:4. "I HAVE KEPT for Myself. along with John 6:37
@shteve77@shteve77 ...I'm saying you do not base theological teachings on songs containing poetry when you have other very clear scriptures on the topic... Your question was answered already... all your doing is answer shopping until you find the one you like instead of what the bible actually teaches...
@shteve77@shteve77 Isaiah 5:3--4.. So your saying God was helpless in face of finite man. The context of Isa 5:1-7 is a SONG. it does not deny irresistible grace Rom 11:4 But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL." from 1Ki 19:18"Yet I will leave 7,000 in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal and every mouth that has not kissed him."
@rbmath No I am not saying God is "helpless in the face of men". I am not saying God failed to make these people good fruit. GOD SAYS HE FAILED TO MAKE THESE PEOPLE GOOD FRUIT. GOD HIMSELF SAYS HE DID EVERYTHING HE COULD. You must ignore this verse because you believe God forces people to repent and turn to Him. In your mind if God wants someone to repent but they don't God has somehow failed, but you won't accept that God WILL NOT FORCE them to repent.
@shteve77 . I have proven you WRONG in that you said that I did not answer when in fact I DID.. You continue to misrepresent what I have said and have NOT corrected yourself..I'm sure that you have heard the answer from another of your false accusations (RE:God forces), but show your wrong again..Your right God does NOT FORCE people to repent. God TAKE AWAY the heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh that makes us WILLING TO REPENT Eze_11:19, Eze_36:26 ALL for His own glory...
@rbmath No you've proven yourself wrong by posting your non answer for everyone to read.
How is saying that it's a song an answer?
You know you haven't answered and won't because you don't know what to answer?
How can God MAKE SOMEONE WILLING unless He forces them. Even if He removes a hard heart that doesn't guarantee they will believe. Adam didn't have a heart heart, He walked with God yet He fell. If Irresistible Grace is true God must force men to repent.
@shteve77 RE: How can God MAKE SOMEONE WILLING unless He forces them... Tell me please, HOW can you "force" spiritually DEAD PEOPLE? Your really saying that the final saving decision is MAN. God can try all He wants but man has the final say in his own salvation, which is works salvation. its really not God's grace that saved you it was YOUR decision to save yourself which is synergism...
@rbmath If God unconditionally elects someone then obviously the only way God can make sure that person will believe is to force them.
The story of the Prodigal shows a DEAD man who "came to his senses" and "went back to his Father".
You conveniently ignore the fact that a Spiritually Dead person cannot remove His guilt or make himself acceptable to God, but He can believe that Jesus is the Son of God and was raised from the dead, especially considering the Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin.
@shteve77 RE: force them... NO... Already answered.. RE:You conveniently ignore... NO... RE: but He can... NO.. Spiritually dead people can NOTHING, GOD GRANTS REPENTANCE, man CANNOT repent on his own. 2Ti 2:25.. RE:Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin.... Once again we come back to the question. IS JESUS THE PERFECT SAVIOR. YOU SAID. Yes. YOUR VIEW meaning only in "perfectly" WANTING people to be saved. NOT IN ACTIONS OF 100% PERFECTLY SAVING EVERYONE OF God's ELECT...
@rbmath Where does it say anywhere in the Bible that for Jesus to be the perfect Saviour that all people that He wants to save must 100% be saved?
If a Spiritually Dead person is unable to even believe the Gospel then obviously if Unconditional Election is true and God decideds to elect a person to salvation then God must FORCE that person to believe. If God doesn't force them to believe then He can't know for sure that they will.
@shteve77 YOU SAID: Where does it say anywhere in the Bible that for Jesus to be the perfect Saviour that all people that He wants to save must 100% be saved?.... MY ANSWER: So I was RIGHT, you do NOT believe that Jesus is the perfect savior in His DIVINE ACTIONS...
@rbmath I ask yet again. Where does it say in scripture that 100% of people that Jesus wantsto be save must be saved or else Jesus is not the perfect Saviour? Your failure to provide any scripture shows your view is unbiblical.
@shteve77.. You have already admitted that you do not think that Jesus, although being fully God is NOT perfect in His fully Divine saving actions which I find this truly amazing that you have admitted this... I will not continue to help you blasphemy His Divine power and omniscient being..... BYE....
@rbmath ....right, so you can't give an answer so you will run away. I have never said Jesus is not perfect, it is your definition of a 'perfect saviour' which requires Jeus to save 100% of those that He wants to save to be perfect, yet you cant provide any scripture to support this????
@shteve77@shteve77.RE: So what if it's a song..Again you assume that God did not have some other reasons for not saving them.. to show us the 100% impossibility of man's "freewill" in choosing God. Rom 15:4. You also assume that man actually has "freewill" to choose God. Libertarian free will does NOT exist Eph 2:1,5. Col2:13. 1:21. John 8:34. Rom 3:23. 8:7. 1Cor 2:14. Jer 17:9. Rom 3:11. 2Timothy2:25.. I did point out 1Ki 19:18, Rom 11:4.
@rbmath Isaiah 5:3--4 Says, "Now you dwellers in Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge between me and my vineyard. What more could have been done for my vineyard than I have done for it? When I looked for good grapes, why did it yield only bad?"
Did God really want them to be 'good fruit'? Why did He say He did everything He could to make them 'good fruit', when He could have done much, much more and Irresistibly regenerated them?
@shteve77 YOU SAID: If I am wrong them please prove it and paste your "answer" so that everyone can read it...... I've POSTED THEM AGAIN FOR OTHERS TO READ AS YOU REQUESTED.....
@rbmath Great. As for Isa46:10. Has it ever occurred to you that God's purposes could be to create men in His image with a free will, allow Him to rebel, but provide a way of salvation, convict men through His Holy Spirit of their sin, draw them to Him, but ALLOW them the freedom to accept or reject His free gift of salvation?
Your reading of this one verse is so extreme that it removes any ability from men to make a descision and makes God responsible for everything, including all sin & evil
@shteve77 RE: Great. As for Isa46:10.... PLEASE provide scriptures in proper context and not your eisegesis.. RE: Your reading.... So your another one who denies that God is in 100% control of His creation....
@rbmath "Isaiah 46:10–11 "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do."
Where does it say here that God controls everything?
It simply says that when God decideds to act and do something, it will be done. He will make it happen.
@shteve77 RE:Where does it say here that God controls everything?.... So another one who does think God is omnipotent.... RE: it will be done. He will make it happen..... EXCEPT God loses his omnipotent power when He decides to save someone than that man has power over what God decides?
@rbmath If God decides to create free creatures and ALLOW them to make descisions how does that stop Him being omnipotent. Men can not do anything unless God allows it. Why do you seem to think an omnipotent God can't ALLOW men the descision to accept or reject salvation? If God wants to save men but He also wants them to agree to it how does that mean man "has power over what God decides"? All it means is that God wants men to have that choice. God is still in control.
@apollos6640.........POSTING AGAIN THE ANSWER I GAVE... RE:Why does God send out a "General Calling".... God has NOT told me. So I do not know why.. but I do know that your views are really your own making you know eisegesis
@rbmath.. I'm awaiting an answer from you. Your Calvinism is FULL of contradictions. Since you didn't answer, I'll ask again:
Why does God send out a "General Calling" of Repentance to DEAD sinners at the bottom of the Ocean (R.C Sproul), whom Jesus NEVER died for to begin with, who have ALSO been PREDESTINED for the Lake of Fire "BEFORE having done anything either good or bad"??
@apollos6640.. AGAIN I ask... Do you think Jesus can FAIL to perfectly fulfill the will of God the Father? Joh 6:37-40 ... I LOSE NOTHING... Heb 7:25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. Are YOU saying Jesus CANNOT perfectly OBEY the will of God the Father?
Why does God send out a "General Calling" of Repentance to DEAD sinners at the bottom of the Ocean (R.C Sproul), whom Jesus NEVER died for to begin with, who have ALSO been PREDESTINED for the Lake of Fire "BEFORE having done anything either good or bad"??
@apollos6640 ... What does Paul say? Rom 9:20-21..Eph 1:11... Does God have the right the do with HIS creation as HE Divinely see fit... it seems you would deny God this right. it seems also that your jesus is very weak as he tries his best to save people but cannot. since the ultimate and deciding issue to the willingness of man to be saved. YOU put finite man over the the Infinite God....
@Shteve77 but that's EXACTLY what Calvinist say! Calvinists say;
God sends out a "General Call" of repentance to DEAD reprobates at the bottom of the Ocean whom Jesus DIDN'T die for & then asks, "what more was there to do that I had not done? I EXPECTED the Dead Reprobates to produce GOOD fruit & Repent, but they didnt. So now I'm going to break down their wall & lay them waste! "
@apollos6640 ... Tell me please. Do you think Jesus can FAIL to perfectly fulfill the will of God the Father? Joh 6:37-40 ... I LOSE NOTHING... Heb 7:25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. Are YOU saying Jesus CANNOT perfectly OBEY the will of God the Father? Jesus who is the second member of the trinity...
@shteve77 "Did God do everything He could to make them good fruit??? Yes or NO?"
Isaih 5:4?
Answer: God did EVERYTHING that was needed from an 'outward human perspective' to dead sinners, but He did not induce REGENERATION, "I will have mercy on whom I have Mercy", he did not have mercy on them, "who are you oh Shteve77 to answer back to God?"
@Shteve77 what question did you ask rbmath? I used to lean towards Calvinism and know EXACTLY what they believe, I'll be more than happy to answer your question from their point of view.
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones RE:That is not what Pelagius taught...Right so poor old Pelagius was just misunderstood by Augustine and all who read his works... google "A Treatise on Nature and Grace, Against Pelagius by Aurelius Augustine, Biship of Hippo" from youtube. "The Gospel According to the Heretic Pelagius (WHI)"
@shteve77 you're back! These guys are all lost, Ezekiel 13:22 NLT
You have discouraged the righteous with your lies, but I didn’t want them to be sad. And you have encouraged the wicked by promising them life, even though they continue in their sins."
These Calvinists promise each other life, though they continue in their sins
PART2: such boasting, such pride.. people standing in heaven. It was NOT ALL GRACE IT WAS MY FIRST HUMAN EFFORT TO HAVE FAITH THAT REALLY SAVED ME.."" Kinda speaks against these verses.. Eph 2:8-10 ...
@rbmath I see you are still promoting Calvinism on these videos, but I am still waiting for you to explain Isa5:3-4 and how it is consistent with Calvinism?
"Now you dwellers in Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge between me and my vineyard. What more could have been done for my vineyard than I have done for it? When I looked for good grapes, why did it yield only bad?"
Did God do everything He could to make these 'good fruit'? Why didn't He Irresistibly change them?
@rbmath Yeah, right..... You never gave an explaination of this passage 4 months ago when I asked you about it and you obviously still can't. Just tell me the answer. Did God do everying He could to make these people 'good fruit' or not?
@rbmath I certainly did not like your 'answer', because you didn't give one.... You dishonest of you to pretend you did. Obviously Isa5:3-4 has you stumped, but instead of reading this scripture and admitting that you are wrong, you just pretend it doesn't exist.
Why can't you just offer an explaination for this verse. Go on! Why can't you answer? Did God do everything He could to make those people 'good fruit'? Why did He say He did?
@shteve77 ...RE: Obviously Isa5:3-4 has you stumped, .... NO.... You believe lies all you want. you will have to answer for it not me.. I know I answered you....
@shteve77 went through this already, as I said its NOT a yes or no question: if you ask a question of this this type you cannot dictate HOW it is to be answered. MOVE ON, you already got your answer....BYE... END OF COMMUNICATIONS....
@rbmath Yes I'll bet you would like it to be the "end of communications" because for the second time in the last few months you've been challenged with a verse that you have no idea how to answer. You have given NO answer. You can't answer and you are just running away from it again and pretending you have actually addressed it. Atleast admit you don't know what to say about it rather than be dishonest.
@shteve77 .It was answered.. Rev_21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."... it that you DID NOT LIKE MY ANSWER BUT IT WAS ANSWERED. you should have said. "Yes you answered but I did NOT like your answer" but you chose to lie...
@2:08, Geisler makes a fundamental mistake in asserting "faith follows salvation"; this is not what Reformed theology is saying. When we talk of the "ordo salutis" (the order of salvation) we are talking about a logical chronology, not a temporal one. The fact is that "effectual calling", "regeneration", the gifts of repentance and faith...are simultaneous events.
Salvation includes: effectual calling, regeneration, the gifts of repentance and faith, justification, sanctification......
@rkg62976 @4:07 Dr. Geisler says, "..wait to get 'zapped' by God...and once you get saved, then you'll be able to believe...I find that nowhere in the N.T."
In Jn.3:3-7, Jesus speaks about this very issue! Unless one is born again (regenerated) by the Spirit, he cannot see the kingdom, that is, he is unable to see the kingdom unless he is regenerated by the Spirit. The Holy Spirit initiates this miracle, and He never fails to accomplish His purpose.
@rkg62976 Hey rkg, I haven't been to this forum in a while. Nice to see that you are still holding the floor :)
What you said is so true. A humanist says: "Hey, I'm not gonna wait around for God to save me, I'll do it myself." But as long as he is busy doing works in the strength of his own hands, he will be trusting in himself. But when the Holy Spirit changes him, he trusts in God.
@rkg62976 but the argument is does man choose to be born again by the spirit (regenerated) or does God choose for you. dont get off track of the main argument or we're getting nowhere.
@RandomCommenterGuy "...does man choose to be born again by the spirit (regenerated) or does God choose for you" I believe I made clear what the biblical position is. It is God alone who chooses whom to regenerate, and who not to. Fallen man is simply unable to "choose to be born again". God alone chooses upon whom to bestow His saving grace. He never fails in this act!
With all due respect to Dr. Norman Geisler, The Divinely Inspired word in Eph 2:1. G3498 nekros.. (a dead body) see also 1Co 2:14... it what the Divinely Inspired Bible has to says... Mr Geisler eisegesis is very sad to see. Paul in Eph is talking to CHRISTIANS who have been "born again" Unless Mr Geisler thinks one can cause his own spiritual birth. He once again
"Irresistible grace" is so far beneath the way the Holy Spirit convicts us and draws us to Jesus that calling IG "zapping" highlights the fact that it is an _unworthy_ understanding of how the grace of God really works. It is not like lightning striking, probably where the idea of "zapping" came from.
Mcfirefly2 1 week ago
By "zapping," he doesn't mean the _actual_ way God interacts with man through His Spirit, but that the way that Calvinists replace it with "irresistable grace" is like zapping since it is like a bolt of lightning that either hits you or not, no interaction involved. Either you get "zapped" or you don't. The real way God interacts with us is so far superior to it that the "irresistable" version deserves a contemptuous word like "zapping."
Mcfirefly2 1 week ago
Calvinists point to John 6:44 as if that proves that God only wants to save a few:
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
But they leave out John 12:32:
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
(6:44--the antecedent of "him"in both clauses is "[no] man [who]comes to him")
We can't come to Him unless we are drawn, but He at some time draws all men, in sincerity, to Him to be saved.
Mcfirefly2 2 weeks ago
Jesus didn't teach that we are born again first, then believe. If you read John 1 without an agenda of proving Calvinism (as a person who is obeying the Spirit and word of God, to seek Him and the salvation He provides, would do), it says that to those who receive Him is given the right to become the sons of God, which is so clearly meant to imply causation. The salvation is all of the Lord, we don't "cause" it that way, but receiving it through faith is how it becomes our own.
Mcfirefly2 2 weeks ago
As much as it is ridiculed and reviled as "weak," God does woo us as well as convict us of sin, through the Holy Spirit. And He tells us in His word to believe, receive, trust, seek. All of those commands of God tell us that, in some way, they must be possible. The same Holy Spirit that draws us to Jesus Christ enables us to overcome dead in sins and trespasses and any other obstacle to belief, if we _will_. _Whosoever will_ may come and drink freely of the water of life--that is _anyone_.
Mcfirefly2 2 weeks ago
They teach that only through an act of "sovereign" regeneration--it makes it sound like they are really on God's team, all this talk about "sovereingty"--is it possible to receive Him. We are born-again _first_, before faith, according to them. It is as if God takes us like the robots we supposedly are, opens up our backs, and puts a new battery pack and software (firmware?) chip in us; then and only then are able to respond. But this is not Biblical & it isn't what believers have experienced.
Mcfirefly2 2 weeks ago
Calvinists teach that man has no choice, and that effectively eliminates the way that God _does_ "lovingly come to us first." I have discussed this with them online and they absolutely revile that we are drawn to Him by the Holy Spirit. No, they say, we are regenerated without so much as receiving it, by an act of God which we have no knowledge of or way of receiving, therefore they are the ones who are suggesting that God does not draw us; he fixes us without any interaction; we have no choice.
Mcfirefly2 2 weeks ago
The point is that He doesn't "zap" anybody. I have read more Calvinists reviling "prevenient grace" in such a shockingly blasphemous way than I ever thought I would. They are the ones talking about the very personal way God reaches and convicts us in a way that makes it seem unholy. If they have been drawn to the Lord by His Spirit, why do they talk like that?
Mcfirefly2 2 weeks ago
@Mcfirefly2
Geisler does talk of "zapping", unfortunately, in this video - I wish he hadn't, for the reasons given. I find it very surprising indeed (to put it mildly !) that a Calvinist should oppose "prevenient grace": many affirm it very clearly. Maybe some are not as theologically careful as others, or are "hyper"-Calvinists. It's good we can discuss this though. Some Calvinists on YT say appealing to paradox is a bad thing - unlike many Calvinist theologians. ........
5355vbxjbj76rvn 1 week ago
@Mcfirefly2
As to the "why" of why people speak so - one can be drawn to Him in that way, without having the ability to articulate the theology of the Divine action by which one is drawn. Not everyone finds theology attractive - but we don't need to be able to know the fine detail of God's dealings with us, or of ours with Him, for them to be real & saving & life-giving. These realities is still realities, however ultimately mysterious they may be to us.
5355vbxjbj76rvn 1 week ago
This talk of God "zapping" people is very regrettable - it over-simplifies how God graciously turns our hearts to Himself. And it endangers the great truth rthat we cannot turn to Him as *our* God unless He lovingly comes to us first. He is always first, in all things. "The Christian's Great Interest" is a Puritan classic that sets out all of this very clearly. To say God "zaps" His elect, is to make the Love by which He acts as their Saviour utterly impersonal.
5355vbxjbj76rvn 2 weeks ago
If God promised that whosoever believed in Jesus would not perish but have eternal life, that is how it comes about. Jesus died for us, securing our salvation, and we believe it, making it our own. Those aren't just empty words, and they are not an illusion. God doesn't give us illusions; He deals with us in truth.
Mcfirefly2 2 weeks ago
The problem with saying they're just two aspects of the same thing is that we start out in need of salvation and a salvation is given us, the good news of Jesus bearing our sins on the cross. We need to be saved, and so the question of how we get saved. There is a cart-before-the-horse involved; they don't just happen, but they happen according to promises God made concerning salvation.
Mcfirefly2 2 weeks ago
Why can't faith and salvation have a *logical order* thus: salvation, then faith - but, a *chronological order*, thus: faith, then salvation ? Or even thus: faith & salvation as two aspects of the same thing, divided only conceptually, but not in experience ? Is there a real contradiction here, or just the illusion of one ? The Bible is bigger than the ways we arrange its ideas in our doctrinal systems & orthodoxies, & so is God.
5355vbxjbj76rvn 3 weeks ago
@gwposey1 Regeneration means born-again, doesn't it? All over the NT, we are told to believe and be saved. John 3, the "ye must be born again" chapter, says eternal life is by faith.
Mcfirefly2 3 weeks ago
@bmd200 Amen! What people don't know is that God is kind; He wants us to be saved. All we have to do is receive Him, and He takes care of the rest, bringing our hearts into agreement with His will. He gave His life on the cross, the most a man can do for His friends. He came not for the righteous, but for sinners.
Mcfirefly2 3 weeks ago 2
Im so glad that I made the right decision to recognize my sinfulness and my need for a savior. I will do my best to convince others to do so as well.
bmd200 1 month ago
Lazarus was physically dead, but not so dead that he couldn't hear the voice of God calling Him forth. Norm Geisler gives an even better example: Adam was not physically dead, but was definitely dead in sins and trespasses when God found him in the garden after his sin, and he heard God, spoke to Him and responded to Him, all things that this philosophy says you cannot do. The Bible shows us that this is not true.
mcfirefly3 3 months ago
If Jesus didn't come for the righteous but for sinners, how could He have come for the pre-regenerated? No, he came to call _sinners_ to repentance, dead in trespasses and sins, but not dead in such a way that they can't hear the Spirit of God and respond. Geisler is preaching from the Bible, not the Calvinist playbook. Believe what God actually says, not a system that explains it away.
(KJV) Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician
mcfirefly3 3 months ago
Jesus said that the things of God were hidden from the wise and prudent but revealed unto babes. I don't think babes can or do sagatiously pick apart "ordo salutis" as if it was a Parker House roll. I think that babes believe what He said, as He said it, and regeneration and salvation happen together.
mcfirefly3 3 months ago
I guarantee you that Norm Geisler believes that we are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God. I guarantee that he is grateful for that, too, to a God who wants all people to receive His gift, although not all will.
mcfirefly3 3 months ago
It would have been interesting if Norman finished reading Ephesians 2:8 @ the 3:10 mark of this video. It would have exposed his first argument against total depravity as false. Because he does not seem to want to read it I will put up here:
8." For by grace you have been saved through faith. AND THIS IS NOT YOUR OWN DOING; IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD, NOT A RESULT OF WORKS, SO THAT ONE MAY BOAST."
I cannot personally trust a man who only reads half of a verse to prove a point.
TheObservationDeck 4 months ago
@TheObservationDeck - it really doesn't change anything. Calvinists believe that the gift is faith. But the passage clearly teaches that the gift is salvation.
msb0000 2 months ago
Even with this faith topic, it's easy to prove Calvinism is wrong. I love proving "Once Saved, Always Saved" IS WRONG. 1 Tim. 4:1, 5:12, 6:10,21 say that Christians can depart from, cast off, or stray from the faith. No way are we saved, regenerated, born again before we have faith. John 1:12 shows free will to get saved. Total depravity and all other 5 points are wrong. With no faith to begin with we are lost. God does not cause us to have faith. We choose to. Faith comes by hearing God's word.
boldforjesus 4 months ago
Calvinists do not believe that salvation comes before faith. Calvinists believe that REGENERATION comes logically prior to faith. Regeneration is merely one component in the Ordo Salutis (order of salvation). Salvation involves much more than just that. Regeneration is the act of the Holy Spirit whereby one is born again (the wind moves where it wishes; John 3) and God removes the heart of stone and puts in a heart of flesh; Ezekiel 36. He saves us by the washing of regeneration; Titus 3
smburney 5 months ago
@smburney Yes. I was wondering how a man could get Calvinism so wrong and still be treated like an expert. Calvinist teach that we are saved by grace through faith.
MrBlackhaw 3 months ago
Classic Straw Man Argument ! Read the whole chapter ! what does the Bible mean when its says " Not of yourselves it is the gift of GOD " ?
hbav8tor 5 months ago
Every Calvinist should watch this to see how bad the Arminian arguments are. Geisler can only refute Calvinism by misrepresenting Calvinism.
nextluther12 6 months ago
@nextluther12 Man I am so sick and tired of 'calvinists' copping out with this 'detractors are misrepresenting calvinism'. What exactly is being misrepresented?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 6 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones If you go to my channel and watch the latest vid. I address Geisler's misrepresentation of Toltal Depravity directly. I will also address the other issues when I get to them in my presentation. Also, Dr. White addreses Geisler's mis-represtations in The Potter's Freedom.
nextluther12 6 months ago
@nextluther12 Haha, exactly. I'd like to actually see him debate with someone like James White, lol he would get demolished.
johnbST6 6 months ago
Dr. Geisler makes a straw-man argument. He claims that monergists are saying that Regeneration=Salvation. But this is not what Reformed theology teaches. The Bible teaches the 'ordo salutis' ("order of salvation"), which includes:
Effectual Calling, Regeneration, the gifts of Repentance and Faith, Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification...These are all part of the Order of Salvation; there is not just one part.
Subtle error; but error nonetheless.
rkg62976 7 months ago
I beg to differ. There's no straw-man here, unless you're arguing/proposing that one can be "born again" without being saved. I've heard/seen multiple Calvinists make the argument of rebirth/regeneration/born again as happening prior (either temporally or logically) to even being able to believe. This REQUIRES that they either believe that the born again are NOT (yet) saved, or that salvation precedes faith.
Either way, there's no leg to stand on, either logically or Biblically.
gwposey1 4 months ago
The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. (Eze 37:1-2).
...and, lo, they were very dry.
...and, lo, they were very dry.
I'm amused that "Dr." Geisler labels the followers of the truth of the Gospel "Calvinists". That's a horrible correlation. But, he's a ThD.
skoobalon 7 months ago
@shteve77 one is a SHEEP if they're found IN CHRIST when he comes in His Glory.
One is a GOAT if he's NOT IN CHRIST when he comes in His Glory
SHEEP are the ELECT AFTER they've been found IN CHRIST, not before it.
apollos6640 7 months ago
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rbmath 7 months ago
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rbmath 7 months ago
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@apollos6640 RE:SHEEP are the ELECT AFTER they've been found IN CHRIST) And you have scriptures to back this up? NONE EXIST. Your view makes these verses, LIES Joh_10:27 Joh_10:16, Act 13:48, Eph 1:4. YOUR VIEW means, that Christ could NOT be100% sure who His sheep are until the end of the age., and would also deny Christ being omniscient in knowing all things. You would rather worship at the idol of man's "free will" than to admit that God is 100% sovereign in saving WHO He wants to or NOT.
rbmath 7 months ago
@shteve77 "there is no need to tell them to repent, because God Irresistibly makes them born again and causes them to repent."
Well, if you read the latest debate I had w/ one of these Calvinists regarding SHEEP & GOATS, they have Redefined SHEEP to = The ELECT
Christ will have them seperated when he comes in His Glory for heaven or hell, Matt.25:31-33... so if they ALREADY exist repentance is meaningless.
apollos6640 7 months ago
@apollos6640 RE: no need... WOW you have no clue... God uses men to call His elect to repentance...
rbmath 7 months ago
@shteve, they've idolized their system, they would reject Christ if he himself told them they were wrong, and they actually have rejected him.
Luke 10:16
"The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me."
apollos6640 7 months ago
@shteve77 Don't let a Calvinist tell you you can't use Isaiah 5 as DOCTRINE because it contradicts & destroys their False theology;
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
No Mr. Calvinist it doesn't say "All types" of Scriptures
apollos6640 7 months ago
@shteve77 "shouldn't be used for Doctrine"?
Paul said ALL SCRIPTURE is good for Doctrine, especially when GOD is speaking.
apollos6640 7 months ago
@rbmath " all you have shown me is eisegesis.."
How, by quoting the Scriptures? You're the one guilty of Eisegeisis and interpretting the Scriptures in the vaccuum of Calvinism
apollos6640 7 months ago
@Jls201 "I can say, Jesus died for my sins on the cross Joh 15:13.. YOU CANNOT SAY THIS, because the cross to you only makes people savable..."
And who are His Friends? John 15:14
And His sheep do what? Jn 10:4, 27
I've been JUSTIFIED by FAITH (Rom.5:1)
You've been justified by ELECTION-- not in the Bible
Jesus paid for my sins made efficacious by MY FAITH in Jesus Christ. He's a Substitutionary Offering to ALL who BELIEVE
apollos6640 7 months ago
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@apollos6640 . So I was right Jesus died for MY sins on the cross Joh 15:13.. (STRONG'S G1588 ELECT) eklektos; select, by impl. favorite: Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Titus 1:1.. for the sake of the faith of God's elect.., Luk 18:7 And will not God give justice to his elect, Thayer Definition: 1a) chosen by God. You remain inconsistent RE: by MY FAITH, REALLY. Rom 4:24-Rom 5:2 Through HIM..you deny that "FAITH" is a gift of God Eph 2:8?
rbmath 7 months ago
I hope people learn to be honest with others even though you strongly disagree with others... BYE...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath "so YOU believe man can submit to God FIRST then GOD applies His divine grace? It goes against scriptures...."
No, it goes against CALVINISM.
Regarding FAITH, Paul quotes Deut. 30:11-19
"For this commandment which I command you today is NOT TOO DIFFICULT for you, NOR IS IT OUT OF REACH. "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart... I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So CHOOSE LIFE in order that you may live, you and your descendants,"
apollos6640 7 months ago
@apollos6640.. Deut. 30:11-19... Tell me PLEASE, just HOW MANY CHOOSE LIFE? did not God say. 1Ki 19:18 Rom_11:4 But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." it was GOD who did the choosing...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath "Tell me PLEASE, just HOW MANY CHOOSE LIFE?"
Irrelevant. I don't care if they ALL chose DEATH,, this passage REFUTES your calvinian doctrine of TOTAL DEPRAVITY and magnifies their God-given ability to "Call on the name of the Lord" and so be saved as Paul quotes this very passage,"EVERYONE who CALLS on the name of the LORD Will Be Saved"
You're the OPPOSER of the Word of GOD declaring to fallen sinners that THEY CANNOT call on God and so be saved due to YOUR doctrine of TOTAL DEPRAVITY
apollos6640 7 months ago
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@apollos6640 RE:this passage REFUTES your ... NO it does NOT. what does Christ say..Joh_8:34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. Rom 3:23.6:20 .. Gen.6:5, 8:21, Jer.17:9, Mark.7:21, Rom.3:9 - Rom.3:1.. RE: God-given ability to "Call on the name of the Lord" ... NO... John.6:44,65. God ALONE grants repentance 2Ti 2:25. man CANNOT repent on his own..
rbmath 7 months ago
@apollos6640 Yes, God commands all men everywhere to repent, yet in Calvinism this statement is pointless. The lost cannot repent, because the "loving" God of Calvinism not only doesn't want them to repent, but deliberately withholds from them the ability to repent so they will be lost and burn forever in Hell (as He wants them to).
And for the elect, there is no need to tell them to repent, because God Irresistibly makes them born again and causes them to repent. They have no choice. What LIES!
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 It comes down to your view of God's sovereignty. its seem you refuse to grant God His sovereignty in choosing WHO to save or not....
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath You weem to think a sovereign God is not allowed to let men choose if He wants to.
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 .. You really hate the idea of God's sovereignty in choosing who He wants to save or not too... Scripture clearly shows that men are dead in sin, hostile to God, cannot submit to God's law, has a deceitful heart, all the thoughts of his heart is evil, can only follow his sinful nature, is a slave to sin, cannot set himself free. but you, with all this against man still thinks man can choose God, when scriptures clearly do NOT support your view.
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath If men are dead in sin, hostile to god, cannot submit to god's law, has a deceitful heart, has evil thoughts, can only follow his sinful nature, is a slave to sin and cannot set himself free... YOUR GOD PREDESTINED MANKIND TO BE THIS WAY. Be consistent...
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Rom_9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath That is all you got? Seriously: your god is a monster.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones RE:Liberal, Humanist, Catholic, Unitarian..... I already know that you have a different gospel and god of your own making so I'm not surprised that you reject the one true God....
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Your god is not the one true god.. your god is a vicious, hateful, malignant creature that loathes its own creation. Keep it, please.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones Mat_7:6 "Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you. BYE....
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Wow, you are really sure of your own election, aren't you?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@rbmath Also, if you're so wild about this passage, why even bother going on this anti-homosexual crusade of yours? Are you answering back to god: why did you make homosexuals? Seriously, your theology is so full of holes it is preposterous.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones "christian compatibilism"
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath For someone who accuses Catholicism of coming up with all kinds of non-scriptural and un-biblical phrases and terms, calvinists sure have their own set of outrageous double-speak... Thanks anyway, but I rather worship God through the sweet visage of the Mother Mary, than through this methodological, mechanical, mathematical and misanthropical system called calvinism.
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
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@rbmath Still no answer. I will ask it again.
-"If God decides to create free creatures and ALLOW them to make descisions how does that stop Him being omnipotent.?"
shteve77 7 months ago
@rbmath Still no explaination of Isa5? Yes I know you say it's a song, but kidly explain what those verse actually are saying? You seem very good in dimissing a passage and saying what it "can't" mean but you are unable to say what they DO mean?
shteve77 7 months ago
@rbmath "....YOUR view lead to weak god who tries his very best to save ALL people but cannot, your view means that cross of Christ did NOT save anyone personally it just made people save-able.."
U are declaring that you've been SAVED Since Jesus' DEATH & RESURRECTION.
Your theology logically teaches that u were born a SAVED sinner, In fact, being one of Gods "ELECT" means your sins have NEVER seperated you from GOD, because you just said, Christ saved YOU "Personally" then & there.
apollos6640 7 months ago
@apollos6640.. Eph 1:1-11... I'm saying that God/Jesus knows who His sheep, are from the foundation of the world and sent His Son to die for His sheep, because the sins of the sheep had separated us from God, after all Jesus DID SAY...John 10:15,27.. I can say,Jesus died for my sins on the cross Joh 15:13.. YOU CANNOT SAY THIS, because the cross to you only makes people savable...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath you should refuse to submit to the Reformed teachings of MEN where they obviously contradict the Scriptures while simultaneously making GOD to be the Author & Finisher of ALL Sin, cloaking these blasphemous doctrines under the umbrella of "Gods SOVEREIGNTY". God doesn't need you patrolling His SOVEREIGNTY, nor does He need you to add an element of FORCE to His FREE GIFT of ETERNAL LIFE to human beings created in His Image, or teaching them that they've been PREDESTINED for Damnation
apollos6640 7 months ago
@apollos6640 all you have shown me is eisegesis..
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath, I asked you a question FIRST, PLEASE be mature and answer it. You delight in being evasive don't you LOL. I'm STILL WAITING. I'll ask a 3rd time.
Why does God send out a "General Calling" of Repentance to DEAD sinners at the bottom of the Ocean (R.C Sproul), whom Jesus NEVER died for to begin with, who have ALSO been PREDESTINED for the Lake of Fire "BEFORE having done anything either good or bad"??
apollos6640 7 months ago
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@apollos6640 AGAIN I ask... Do you think Jesus can FAIL to perfectly fulfill the will of God the Father? Joh 6:37-40 ... I LOSE NOTHING... Heb 7:25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. Are YOU saying Jesus CANNOT perfectly OBEY the will of God the Father?
rbmath 7 months ago
@apollos6640 ... God has not told me or anyone else all the finer points of His plans or reasons. I just know know what the divinely inspired scriptures have to say....YOUR view lead to weak god who tries his very best to save ALL people but cannot, your view means that cross of Christ did NOT save anyone personally it just made people save-able.. YOUR view denies God Divine right as the master potter to do what HE PLEASES...
rbmath 7 months ago
@apollos6640 YOUR VIEW make human will power the deciding factor. RE: "I SAID YES TO GOD" which is works salvation...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath... Believing in God is "Works salvation"? Have you been studying Piper, Sproul, Washer, Driscoll or White? Perhaps you should focus more on the Word of God. Meditate on Rom 4, as PAUL himself Influenced by the Holy Spirit has already rebuked you. Submitting to God into repentance is NOT a work.
Jesus declared in Luke 17:10 "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’"
And I do.
apollos6640 7 months ago
@apollos6640... So YOU believe man can submit to God FIRST then GOD applies His divine grace? which clearly goes against scriptures....
rbmath 7 months ago
@apollos6640 RE:Why does God send out a "General Calling".... God has NOT told me. So I do not know why.. but I do know that your views are really your own making you know eisegesis
rbmath 7 months ago
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rbmath 7 months ago
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@apollos6640 . Do you think that God owes you and answer to all your questions? you do know that when Job questioned God that God DID NOT ANSWER Job the why of of his suffering...Job 38:1-
rbmath 7 months ago
@apollos6640 He avoids questions he can't answer, then pretends He has answered them. A clear sign that he knows he is in error but willfully refuses to admit it.
Good question! God is "Love" scripture says. What a 'loving' God the God of Calvinism is, He creates most people to be vessels of destruction before they have ever done anything good or bad, He then 'offers' them salvation and commands them to repent all the while making sure they won't repent because He only created them for hell!
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 @apollos6640 ... I'm amazed that "Christians" I ASSUME you are,(YES I CALLED YOU CHRISTIANS EVEN THOUGH I STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH YOUR VIEWS) would rather lie and say that I have avoided your questions when in fact I answered them. You obviously did not did not like my answers so you chose to lie and said that I did not answer them or avoided them... Rev 21:8..
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath No, it is I that am amazed that you would resort to lies. You have NEVER, I repeat NEVER given an explaination for Isa5:3-4. The only thing you have said is that it is a song and shouldn't be used for doctrine which is a complete cop-out. You have never answered my question asking if God did everything He could to make the people good fruit. If I am wrong them please prove it and paste your "answer" so that everyone can read it........
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77: HERE ARE MY ANSWERS THAT I SAVED: the sad thing for you is with your view you need to say about Isa 46:10is all wrong, after all YOUR god failed to do everything he could as shown in Isa 5:3-4? because you refuse to accept the answer that man has NO libertarian free will, I NEVER said ignore any scriptures. I gave you my understanding that make a lot more sense than your view which would make Isa 46:10 a lie
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Yes I have read your "answers". Now kindly point out which part actually talks about what Isa5:3-4 is saying, and which part answers my question "did God do everything He could to make these people good fruit?"
The closest thing you gave to "an answer" is "Isa 5 is a SONG, Songs contain poetry and are not meant to be a theological statement". This is rubbish and a cop-out so you can avoid the passage.
Please actually give an answer?????
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 RE: Yes I have read your "answers"... You're answer shopping, because you do not like the answers I gave. You would rather have scripture contradict themselves than admit that your wrong. It was answered ENOUGH...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Imagine if you quoted a verse from the Psalms and I just said, "Oh, but that is a song, we can't base any docrtine on that"! What rubbish. You have not answered, and everyone who reads these comments will know it.
I have asked over and over, Could God have done anything more to make the people of Israel good fruit???????
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 RE:"Oh, but that is a song, we can't base any docrtine on that... EXACTLY WHERE DID I SAY THIS IN THE CONTEXT YOU QUOTE.. THIS IS WHAT I SAID...((Isa 5 is a SONG, Songs contain poetry and are not MEANT to be a theological statement WHEN other scriptures on the issue ARE A LOT MORE CLEAR such as Isa 46:10.)) The bible being the Divinely Inspired word of God CANNOT contradict itself.. YOUR VIEW of Isa 5 leads contradictions in scriptures.
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Firstly, it is not MY view of Isa4, I am plainly reading the text. God himself says of His own people that He did everything He could to make them good fruit. That doesn't contradict anything else in the Bible, which also teaches that God wants all men to be saved(1Tim2:4) and that the Holy Spirit Convicts the WORLD of sin and judgement.(Jn16) The only thing it 'contradicts' is your Calvinism understanding. Have you considered it's Calvinism that leads to contradictions?
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 RE:(1Tim2:4)... Why do ignore the context of the chapter? 1Ti 2:1-4 ... "thanksgivings be made for all people",... Tell me please are you praying for every single person on earth all 6 billion of them? or does Paul clarify what he means.. "for kings and all who are in high positions" so its ALL KINDS OF MEN...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Is there any reason a person can't pray for all men? Do you have to know everyone by name to pray for them?
The only "kind" of men Paul singles out are rulers, and why? So that with good rulers we may live peacful lives.
Then He goes on to say "who wants ALL MEN to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for ALL MEN.". Notice nowhere does it say "all kinds"!
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 I have no problems if songs contain doctrine, its when our understanding of the passage in questions LEADS TO CONTRADICTIONS IN SCRIPTURE (UNLESS YOUR WILL TO ADMIT THAT THE DIVINELY INSPIRED SCRIPTURES DO CONTRADICT IN WHICH CASE WE HAVE A DIFFERENT ISSUE) than our/your understand is WRONG.
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath If you think that my 'reading' of this "song" in Isa5 is wrong then kindly explain what God is wanting us to learn from those verses and what they actually mean. It is not a good method of Bible study to simply say that a passage appers to contradict what I understand so I will ignore what that passage teaches. What does it teach?
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 RE: Isa5 ... Already answered....
rbmath 7 months ago
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@rbmath No, not allready answered. Allready and continually ignored is more like it!
You can't just dismiss a passage as a song. God put Isa5 in His Word for a reason. Obviously you think I am reading the meaning of the text wrongly. So again I ask would you kindly explain what God is wanting us to learn from those verses and what they actually mean?
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 first see you inbox. I save the answers that I gave and sent them to AGAIN...
rbmath 7 months ago
@shteve77 here they are @shteve77 . Isa 5 is a SONG, Songs contain poetry and are not meant to be a theological statement when other scriptures on the issue are a lot more clear such as Isa 46:10.. 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' you thinking God can fail as implied by your question, naturally implies a contradiction in your thinking between the two. God tried all he could but failed So Isa 46:10 must be a lie not to mention another lie in John 6:37
rbmath 7 months ago
@shteve77 @shteve77. Again its a SONG, A song contains poetry, its NOT meant to be theological statements, thinking so ignores the context and ignores the other scriptures that I have already pointed out. and from a HUMAN point of view, humans being in a fallen nature and Israel given the benefits of God's laws. from a human point of view God did a lot for Israel. PLUS GOD DID KEEP FOR HIMSELF 7,000 people see NASB 1Ki 19:18, Rom 11:4. "I HAVE KEPT for Myself. along with John 6:37
rbmath
rbmath 7 months ago
@shteve77 @shteve77 ...I'm saying you do not base theological teachings on songs containing poetry when you have other very clear scriptures on the topic... Your question was answered already... all your doing is answer shopping until you find the one you like instead of what the bible actually teaches...
rbmath 7 months ago
@shteve77 @shteve77 Isaiah 5:3--4.. So your saying God was helpless in face of finite man. The context of Isa 5:1-7 is a SONG. it does not deny irresistible grace Rom 11:4 But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL." from 1Ki 19:18"Yet I will leave 7,000 in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal and every mouth that has not kissed him."
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath No I am not saying God is "helpless in the face of men". I am not saying God failed to make these people good fruit. GOD SAYS HE FAILED TO MAKE THESE PEOPLE GOOD FRUIT. GOD HIMSELF SAYS HE DID EVERYTHING HE COULD. You must ignore this verse because you believe God forces people to repent and turn to Him. In your mind if God wants someone to repent but they don't God has somehow failed, but you won't accept that God WILL NOT FORCE them to repent.
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 . I have proven you WRONG in that you said that I did not answer when in fact I DID.. You continue to misrepresent what I have said and have NOT corrected yourself..I'm sure that you have heard the answer from another of your false accusations (RE:God forces), but show your wrong again..Your right God does NOT FORCE people to repent. God TAKE AWAY the heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh that makes us WILLING TO REPENT Eze_11:19, Eze_36:26 ALL for His own glory...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath No you've proven yourself wrong by posting your non answer for everyone to read.
How is saying that it's a song an answer?
You know you haven't answered and won't because you don't know what to answer?
How can God MAKE SOMEONE WILLING unless He forces them. Even if He removes a hard heart that doesn't guarantee they will believe. Adam didn't have a heart heart, He walked with God yet He fell. If Irresistible Grace is true God must force men to repent.
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 RE: How can God MAKE SOMEONE WILLING unless He forces them... Tell me please, HOW can you "force" spiritually DEAD PEOPLE? Your really saying that the final saving decision is MAN. God can try all He wants but man has the final say in his own salvation, which is works salvation. its really not God's grace that saved you it was YOUR decision to save yourself which is synergism...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath If God unconditionally elects someone then obviously the only way God can make sure that person will believe is to force them.
The story of the Prodigal shows a DEAD man who "came to his senses" and "went back to his Father".
You conveniently ignore the fact that a Spiritually Dead person cannot remove His guilt or make himself acceptable to God, but He can believe that Jesus is the Son of God and was raised from the dead, especially considering the Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin.
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 RE: force them... NO... Already answered.. RE:You conveniently ignore... NO... RE: but He can... NO.. Spiritually dead people can NOTHING, GOD GRANTS REPENTANCE, man CANNOT repent on his own. 2Ti 2:25.. RE:Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin.... Once again we come back to the question. IS JESUS THE PERFECT SAVIOR. YOU SAID. Yes. YOUR VIEW meaning only in "perfectly" WANTING people to be saved. NOT IN ACTIONS OF 100% PERFECTLY SAVING EVERYONE OF God's ELECT...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Where does it say anywhere in the Bible that for Jesus to be the perfect Saviour that all people that He wants to save must 100% be saved?
If a Spiritually Dead person is unable to even believe the Gospel then obviously if Unconditional Election is true and God decideds to elect a person to salvation then God must FORCE that person to believe. If God doesn't force them to believe then He can't know for sure that they will.
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 YOU SAID: Where does it say anywhere in the Bible that for Jesus to be the perfect Saviour that all people that He wants to save must 100% be saved?.... MY ANSWER: So I was RIGHT, you do NOT believe that Jesus is the perfect savior in His DIVINE ACTIONS...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath I ask yet again. Where does it say in scripture that 100% of people that Jesus wantsto be save must be saved or else Jesus is not the perfect Saviour? Your failure to provide any scripture shows your view is unbiblical.
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77.. You have already admitted that you do not think that Jesus, although being fully God is NOT perfect in His fully Divine saving actions which I find this truly amazing that you have admitted this... I will not continue to help you blasphemy His Divine power and omniscient being..... BYE....
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath ....right, so you can't give an answer so you will run away. I have never said Jesus is not perfect, it is your definition of a 'perfect saviour' which requires Jeus to save 100% of those that He wants to save to be perfect, yet you cant provide any scripture to support this????
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 @shteve77.RE: So what if it's a song..Again you assume that God did not have some other reasons for not saving them.. to show us the 100% impossibility of man's "freewill" in choosing God. Rom 15:4. You also assume that man actually has "freewill" to choose God. Libertarian free will does NOT exist Eph 2:1,5. Col2:13. 1:21. John 8:34. Rom 3:23. 8:7. 1Cor 2:14. Jer 17:9. Rom 3:11. 2Timothy2:25.. I did point out 1Ki 19:18, Rom 11:4.
rbmath 7 months ago
@shteve77 Isaiah 5:3--4
@rbmath Isaiah 5:3--4 Says, "Now you dwellers in Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge between me and my vineyard. What more could have been done for my vineyard than I have done for it? When I looked for good grapes, why did it yield only bad?"
Did God really want them to be 'good fruit'? Why did He say He did everything He could to make them 'good fruit', when He could have done much, much more and Irresistibly regenerated them?
shteve77
rbmath 7 months ago
@shteve77 YOU SAID: If I am wrong them please prove it and paste your "answer" so that everyone can read it...... I've POSTED THEM AGAIN FOR OTHERS TO READ AS YOU REQUESTED.....
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Great. As for Isa46:10. Has it ever occurred to you that God's purposes could be to create men in His image with a free will, allow Him to rebel, but provide a way of salvation, convict men through His Holy Spirit of their sin, draw them to Him, but ALLOW them the freedom to accept or reject His free gift of salvation?
Your reading of this one verse is so extreme that it removes any ability from men to make a descision and makes God responsible for everything, including all sin & evil
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 RE: Great. As for Isa46:10.... PLEASE provide scriptures in proper context and not your eisegesis.. RE: Your reading.... So your another one who denies that God is in 100% control of His creation....
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath "Isaiah 46:10–11 "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do."
Where does it say here that God controls everything?
It simply says that when God decideds to act and do something, it will be done. He will make it happen.
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 RE:Where does it say here that God controls everything?.... So another one who does think God is omnipotent.... RE: it will be done. He will make it happen..... EXCEPT God loses his omnipotent power when He decides to save someone than that man has power over what God decides?
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath If God decides to create free creatures and ALLOW them to make descisions how does that stop Him being omnipotent. Men can not do anything unless God allows it. Why do you seem to think an omnipotent God can't ALLOW men the descision to accept or reject salvation? If God wants to save men but He also wants them to agree to it how does that mean man "has power over what God decides"? All it means is that God wants men to have that choice. God is still in control.
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 RE: If God decides... YOUR once again very light on scriptures...
rbmath 7 months ago
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@rbmath Your repsonse is "If God decides... YOUR once again very light on scriptures..."
I asked a simple question. I will repeat it.
"If God decides to create free creatures and ALLOW them to make descisions how does that stop Him being omnipotent.?"
shteve77 7 months ago
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@apollos6640.........POSTING AGAIN THE ANSWER I GAVE... RE:Why does God send out a "General Calling".... God has NOT told me. So I do not know why.. but I do know that your views are really your own making you know eisegesis
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath.. I'm awaiting an answer from you. Your Calvinism is FULL of contradictions. Since you didn't answer, I'll ask again:
Why does God send out a "General Calling" of Repentance to DEAD sinners at the bottom of the Ocean (R.C Sproul), whom Jesus NEVER died for to begin with, who have ALSO been PREDESTINED for the Lake of Fire "BEFORE having done anything either good or bad"??
apollos6640 7 months ago
@apollos6640 ...SEE: What does Paul say? Rom 9:20-21..Eph 1:11... Does God have the right the do with HIS creation as HE Divinely see fit.....
rbmath 7 months ago
@apollos6640 ... it seems you would rather deny scriptures clear teaching... How VERY SAD...
rbmath 7 months ago
@apollos6640.. AGAIN I ask... Do you think Jesus can FAIL to perfectly fulfill the will of God the Father? Joh 6:37-40 ... I LOSE NOTHING... Heb 7:25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. Are YOU saying Jesus CANNOT perfectly OBEY the will of God the Father?
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath. I've got a question of my own;
Why does God send out a "General Calling" of Repentance to DEAD sinners at the bottom of the Ocean (R.C Sproul), whom Jesus NEVER died for to begin with, who have ALSO been PREDESTINED for the Lake of Fire "BEFORE having done anything either good or bad"??
apollos6640 7 months ago
@apollos6640 ... What does Paul say? Rom 9:20-21..Eph 1:11... Does God have the right the do with HIS creation as HE Divinely see fit... it seems you would deny God this right. it seems also that your jesus is very weak as he tries his best to save people but cannot. since the ultimate and deciding issue to the willingness of man to be saved. YOU put finite man over the the Infinite God....
rbmath 7 months ago
@Shteve77 but that's EXACTLY what Calvinist say! Calvinists say;
God sends out a "General Call" of repentance to DEAD reprobates at the bottom of the Ocean whom Jesus DIDN'T die for & then asks, "what more was there to do that I had not done? I EXPECTED the Dead Reprobates to produce GOOD fruit & Repent, but they didnt. So now I'm going to break down their wall & lay them waste! "
They only Glorify Satan their Lying FATHER.
apollos6640 7 months ago
@apollos6640 ... Tell me please. Do you think Jesus can FAIL to perfectly fulfill the will of God the Father? Joh 6:37-40 ... I LOSE NOTHING... Heb 7:25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. Are YOU saying Jesus CANNOT perfectly OBEY the will of God the Father? Jesus who is the second member of the trinity...
rbmath 7 months ago
@shteve77 but that calvinian argument fails at a COLOSSAL level based on the 2nd half of v4; Isaiah 5:4
"What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I EXPECTED it to produce GOOD grapes did it produce worthless ones?"
One COULD make the argument that God had REGENERATED Israel based on God declaring that He "EXPECTED" GOOD fruit from them...
IF God had done something else, HE would KNOW & would NOT expect them to produce GOOD FRUIT.
apollos6640 7 months ago
@shteve77 "Did God do everything He could to make them good fruit??? Yes or NO?"
Isaih 5:4?
Answer: God did EVERYTHING that was needed from an 'outward human perspective' to dead sinners, but He did not induce REGENERATION, "I will have mercy on whom I have Mercy", he did not have mercy on them, "who are you oh Shteve77 to answer back to God?"
apollos6640 7 months ago
@Shteve77 what question did you ask rbmath? I used to lean towards Calvinism and know EXACTLY what they believe, I'll be more than happy to answer your question from their point of view.
apollos6640 7 months ago
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@apollos6640 RE: EXACTLY what they believe... you have studied reformed theology in university and are a minister...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Have you studied Pelagius, Arminius or Servetus? I have studied Calvin, Beza and Gomarus..
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
@TennesseeOwnsMyBones RE: studied Pelagius, Arminius or Servetus?... fully NO... I know enough that their heretics...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Really? What did Pelagius teach then?
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
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@TennesseeOwnsMyBones RE:Really? What did Pelagius teach then?: google Augustine vs Pelagius. The webpage "monergism dot com" has information...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath That is not what Pelagius taught...
TennesseeOwnsMyBones 7 months ago
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@TennesseeOwnsMyBones RE:That is not what Pelagius taught...Right so poor old Pelagius was just misunderstood by Augustine and all who read his works... google "A Treatise on Nature and Grace, Against Pelagius by Aurelius Augustine, Biship of Hippo" from youtube. "The Gospel According to the Heretic Pelagius (WHI)"
rbmath 7 months ago
@shteve77 you're back! These guys are all lost, Ezekiel 13:22 NLT
You have discouraged the righteous with your lies, but I didn’t want them to be sad. And you have encouraged the wicked by promising them life, even though they continue in their sins."
These Calvinists promise each other life, though they continue in their sins
apollos6640 7 months ago
PART2: such boasting, such pride.. people standing in heaven. It was NOT ALL GRACE IT WAS MY FIRST HUMAN EFFORT TO HAVE FAITH THAT REALLY SAVED ME.."" Kinda speaks against these verses.. Eph 2:8-10 ...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath I see you are still promoting Calvinism on these videos, but I am still waiting for you to explain Isa5:3-4 and how it is consistent with Calvinism?
"Now you dwellers in Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge between me and my vineyard. What more could have been done for my vineyard than I have done for it? When I looked for good grapes, why did it yield only bad?"
Did God do everything He could to make these 'good fruit'? Why didn't He Irresistibly change them?
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 RE:Isa 5:3-4... Been over this already....
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Yeah, right..... You never gave an explaination of this passage 4 months ago when I asked you about it and you obviously still can't. Just tell me the answer. Did God do everying He could to make these people 'good fruit' or not?
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 .... Yes I did... Its that you just did not like my answer.... How dishonest of you...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath I certainly did not like your 'answer', because you didn't give one.... You dishonest of you to pretend you did. Obviously Isa5:3-4 has you stumped, but instead of reading this scripture and admitting that you are wrong, you just pretend it doesn't exist.
Why can't you just offer an explaination for this verse. Go on! Why can't you answer? Did God do everything He could to make those people 'good fruit'? Why did He say He did?
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 ...RE: Obviously Isa5:3-4 has you stumped, .... NO.... You believe lies all you want. you will have to answer for it not me.. I know I answered you....
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath You said it's a song and refuse to say anything more about it...... A NON ANSWER.
Why don't you prove me wrong and answer. Did God do everything He could to make those people good fruit? YES or NO?
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 ... I answered A LOT more than that...
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath You certainly did not, and you obviously still can't.
Just give a quick answer now. Did God do everything He could to make them good fruit??? Yes or NO?
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 Answered.
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Sorry, was that a YES or a NO????
It would have been shorter for you to type YES or NO than "answered"
You have NEVER given an answer, and you continue to evade the question.
shteve77 7 months ago
@shteve77 went through this already, as I said its NOT a yes or no question: if you ask a question of this this type you cannot dictate HOW it is to be answered. MOVE ON, you already got your answer....BYE... END OF COMMUNICATIONS....
rbmath 7 months ago
@rbmath Yes I'll bet you would like it to be the "end of communications" because for the second time in the last few months you've been challenged with a verse that you have no idea how to answer. You have given NO answer. You can't answer and you are just running away from it again and pretending you have actually addressed it. Atleast admit you don't know what to say about it rather than be dishonest.
shteve77 7 months ago
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@shteve77 .It was answered.. Rev_21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."... it that you DID NOT LIKE MY ANSWER BUT IT WAS ANSWERED. you should have said. "Yes you answered but I did NOT like your answer" but you chose to lie...
rbmath 7 months ago
What happened to the rest of Ephesians chapter 2?
Calvinist87 7 months ago
He never finished Ephesians 2;8-9...you have been saved through faith and.this is not your own doing it is a gift from God.....what happened ?
bmd200 8 months ago
@2:08, Geisler makes a fundamental mistake in asserting "faith follows salvation"; this is not what Reformed theology is saying. When we talk of the "ordo salutis" (the order of salvation) we are talking about a logical chronology, not a temporal one. The fact is that "effectual calling", "regeneration", the gifts of repentance and faith...are simultaneous events.
Salvation includes: effectual calling, regeneration, the gifts of repentance and faith, justification, sanctification......
rkg62976 11 months ago
@rkg62976 @4:07 Dr. Geisler says, "..wait to get 'zapped' by God...and once you get saved, then you'll be able to believe...I find that nowhere in the N.T."
In Jn.3:3-7, Jesus speaks about this very issue! Unless one is born again (regenerated) by the Spirit, he cannot see the kingdom, that is, he is unable to see the kingdom unless he is regenerated by the Spirit. The Holy Spirit initiates this miracle, and He never fails to accomplish His purpose.
Soli Deo Gloria!
rkg62976 11 months ago
@rkg62976 Hey rkg, I haven't been to this forum in a while. Nice to see that you are still holding the floor :)
What you said is so true. A humanist says: "Hey, I'm not gonna wait around for God to save me, I'll do it myself." But as long as he is busy doing works in the strength of his own hands, he will be trusting in himself. But when the Holy Spirit changes him, he trusts in God.
RomansGalatians 11 months ago
@rkg62976 but the argument is does man choose to be born again by the spirit (regenerated) or does God choose for you. dont get off track of the main argument or we're getting nowhere.
RandomCommenterGuy 8 months ago
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@RandomCommenterGuy "...does man choose to be born again by the spirit (regenerated) or does God choose for you" I believe I made clear what the biblical position is. It is God alone who chooses whom to regenerate, and who not to. Fallen man is simply unable to "choose to be born again". God alone chooses upon whom to bestow His saving grace. He never fails in this act!
rkg62976 8 months ago
I sure that Calvinists not believe that Ehp 2:1 dead... is not annihilationism. So he once again misrepresents what Calvinism teaches...
rbmath 1 year ago
With all due respect to Dr. Norman Geisler, The Divinely Inspired word in Eph 2:1. G3498 nekros.. (a dead body) see also 1Co 2:14... it what the Divinely Inspired Bible has to says... Mr Geisler eisegesis is very sad to see. Paul in Eph is talking to CHRISTIANS who have been "born again" Unless Mr Geisler thinks one can cause his own spiritual birth. He once again