Christopher Hitchens on Jefferson & Bush (3 of 8)

[mu99ins]

@ lord69z

The critical point that eludes you is that belief, itself, is illogical, based on fear of death. Becoming an atheist is not the act of replacing one belief with another. It is not believing altogether. Of course, you have to deal with the fear of death, but logically, that is easier, logically, than denying science, like the believers do, and being convinced that there is an afterlife....somewhere "up there" in heaven.

[SIMKINETICS]

@crazyboyxx Amen!

[SIMKINETICS]

Hitchens appears to have a Tesla-like photographic memory. Notice how he speaks extemporaneously without any apparent teleprompter. Since he writes prolifically, he has learned to organize his thoughts 'on paper' & appears to re-read what he wrote in some space in front of himself. Notice his eye movements. What a gifted man!

[darksmiles22]

Hitler definitely promoted Christianity among the German people, and he appears to have been a believer as well. He introduced worship of the state and of non-Christian symbols as well, but that does not contradict his Christian leanings.

Now, can we leave the Godwin zone and get back to Jefferson please?

[twikiriwhi]

Hutchens is mistaken to infer from the Islamic vindication of enslavement that therefore all religion justifies atrocities and atheism does not.

Dont be fooled into letting him sell you this bogus conclusion.

In fact Jefferson himself owned slaves.

Adams had Jefferson pegged...he was a democratic fool. His blind support of the French terror...his abandonment of Paine!!!!

[drfoxcourt]

When Hitchens was asked about non-religious slave holding, his answer was that he held that Jefferson and their ilk accepted slavery & its adherent racism out of conforming to cultural bias, which was borne by religion in the west. Realistically speaking there wasn't any atheist slavers. When there appeared to be such, it was the racism of religion that wasn't erased by atheism. To say "all men are created equal" would not, and indeed has never, been accepted by any religious institution.

[twikiriwhi]

Christianity as taught by St Paul does teach equality which is where Locke and later Jefferson got this self evident truth...even Martin Luther Kings movement for equality, and the womans suffrage movement were both Christian based...as was Wilberforces movement to abolish slavery so how you can believe that no religious institutions promote equality can only be born of sheer ignorance and bigotry!

[twikiriwhi]

As for the silly claim that their have been no Atheist slavers...Hitler was a slaver (Hitler was not a Christian, but a Darwinist hence his eugenics theories) and so was every Communist dictator.

They had systematic slavery on a unprecedented scale!

Thus Hitchens is proven a shallow minded atheist yet again.

[drfoxcourt]

Hitler was raised Catholic. Hitler never renounced his christianity. Hitler stated that he wanted German people to worship God but obey the state. Hitler was a psychopath, not an atheist. I won't say more than to mention churches' (Cath & prot) support of Hitler's genocidal ideals.

Putting Hitler in the discussion cheapens the debate and debases your argument. it is a poor ploy of trollers. I suggest you refrain from using it.

[twikiriwhi]

I am perfectly within my right to use Hitler as a good example of an Atheist.

It is You and your pal Dawkins who ought to practice what you preach Ie Dawkins hates children of religious parents automatically being labeled as 'Catholic children or Hindu children before they are old enough to make their own choice.

Yet then you and him both decide that is is ok to call Hitler a Catholic because he was raised one...Hipocrites! Fools!

The whole world knows Hitler was an irreligious Anti-christ.

[drfoxcourt]

Within your right, yes. Cheapening the debate, definitely.

Hitler an atheist, no.

Dawkin's point is that children are not born religious, they are brought up to BE religious. Hitler was raised to be religious, and he indeed stayed so.

Again, Hitler stated that he wanted Germans to worship God and obey the state. Such a statement should not be interpreted as anything less than support of religion by the Nazi state.

As for Anti-christ, well, let's say that we agree that he was a very bad man.

[drfoxcourt]

Paul believed in the superiority of Christian men (not women). Neither Locke nor Jefferson got their equality ideals from St Paul (a better candidate would be Unitarian J. Preistley).

Agreed re the women's movement and racial movement, but both were after the power of Christianity had waned. At it's highest power, Christianity supported genocide, religiocide, and slavery as justified by God, the Bible, and the sake of religion.

(more on moral and immoral action if you want)

[lord69z]

You sir need a lesson in logic.

The lack of a belief does not constitute one.

That is like saying a lack of belief in Astrology or Alchemy therefore means you believe in (insert).

Democratic fool? hilarious, what form of gov would you like? Communism?Socialism?Fascism? maybe a good old fashion Monarchy?

please.

[GNRWrestlingFan]

I have to laugh at the Americans and Canadians debating which military is better. Like it's some fucking sports team. Listen morons don't debate shit that you clearly don't understand. "Oh your military is so poorly trained they can't beat towel heads." Give me a break like it's as easy as saying it. I doubt any of you have real military experience. One more thing, America is a great country to live in.

[zzyzx0788]

Eh..Jefferson was iffy on the issue of Native Americans

[wycktellurian]

To put things in perspective for all you people who think the war would be short, in the late 90s the US Navy SEALs did a joint exercise with a Canadian unit. The Canadians were defending and the SEALs were attacking. It took them three days to take over the position. Once they were done, they wanted to know which special forces unit was defending the ground. Well, it was the Naval Reserves... part time soldiers who train one evening a week and one weekend a month.

Go figure.

[infokemp]

The United states should expand into Canada and Mexico and go back to its founding father's principles.

Thomas Jefferson's project is still on going.

[JimmyeDallas]

I wouldn't tolerate any US soldier setting foot in this country. They would meet heavy, costly resistance if they ever tried to occupy Canada by force.

[infokemp]

I apologize it was an insensitive statement.

Long live national sovereignty and international co-operation as brother nations.

Long live the memory of Jefferson and the Enlightenment.

Infokemp.

[littleredbirdy]

Well......I doubt such a war would last very long.

[JimmyeDallas]

The war would be short. The occupation would be long, futile and costly.

[littleredbirdy]

I don't know, Canadians seem more like their modern European counterparts. Meaning they are big secular humanist pushovers.

For all of its faults America is one of the few western nations left with some of its balls still intact.

I can give you a rather long list of Canada being a big push over in the face of Islam if you'd like. Appeasing an 8th century ideology to not get hurt is not my idea of being tough.

[YourBooksAreWrong]

it wouldn't be as easy to occupy canada as you think. look at how much more scientifically and financially superior Canada is to the middle eastern powers that the US is in conflict with. and look at how well that war is going.

[littleredbirdy]

Canada is full of secular humanists who would rather roll over and take it than fight back. The Middle East is full of maniacs who fear absolutely nothing other than their demonic Allah.

Finances do not really matter when you lose the war in a single day. The full wrath of America's military has never seen the light of day and I hope it never does because it will be terrible.

[YourBooksAreWrong]

full of secualr humanists who would rather roll over and take it ?

You obviously don't know many Canadians... lol. And obviously don't know much about US and Canadian military history.

[littleredbirdy]

Canada is not the same today as it was 50 years ago unfortunately.

America won the war of Iraq in a single day. It's not America's fault Islam does not want to be modernized so badly it would rather blow itself up.

If we were dealing with secular humanists in the Middle East the battle and occupation would have been over years ago and things would be sailing along smoothly.

You speak as it if is bad to live under American providence. Seems to me it is worse to never have come into contact

[YourBooksAreWrong]

i'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying i don't think it would be as easy as you think. Canada, like the US, is unbelieveably proud of the fact that it's a true democracy, and that it's ultimately run by the people.

The Canadian forces and the US forces are trained by the same caliber of people and quite often have military exercises where they're training with each other. Like you, we don't use bombs made in plastic pop bottles lol. Yes, you'd win. but it wouldn't be easy.

[YourBooksAreWrong]

i'm sure in 2002 you would have said much worse about Iraq about how easily you could waltz in and take their country over with almost no effort. Don't deny it. I'm sure you thought that when you left Afghanistan and moved into Iraq. Overconfidence is quite often why great powers fall apart.

[Blackwater578]

Not if there is an alien invasion.

[ChildeRolandofGilead]

The audience needs cough drops.

[weversonman]

africa americans have the cough gene, you are making a racially inexcusable statement and I think you should apologize or let it forever weigh upon your conscience.

[SIMKINETICS]

@ChildeRolandofGilead Hey,it's Grand Rapids, MI, my birthplace; people are coughing because is damn cold & brutle there most of the time. I remember that. People get colds there a lot there.

[XieYali]

@SIMKINETICS

Oh!! Fellow Grand Rapidian!!!! :) *high five*

[SIMKINETICS]

@XieYali Sorry. I can't high-five you because I'm in California and you're likely wearing mittens now! Just kidding, bro'. But, are people coughing there yet? Oh yeah, did you see Hitchens then?

[XieYali]

@SIMKINETICS

Actually I'm living outside of the US now haha. I'm sure they are, though. ;)

Unfortunately, I did not get to see Mr. Hitchens, although I would have loved to

P.S. (I'm a girl, but you can call me bro anyway. I know you're in Cali and everyone's a brah. :P )

[SIMKINETICS]

@XieYali OK sis! Japan? How long now? When we moved from GR in mid-June of 1962, there was still snow in the shadows of our houses! Sorry you missed Hitch; I'd like to meet him before he dies. Hitchens is one of our greatest 'Americans'! Many right-wingnut bible-thumpers despise him & Jefferson because they are/were 'likely' atheists, despite the upholding of freedoms advocated. America's degraded education system seems to produce many shallow zombies now; this saddens & angers me.

[XieYali]

@SIMKINETICS

I'm still just a youngster. :P I'm only 25, I've been out of GR for only four years now. Yes, I would love to hear Hitchens speak as well. America's schooling system does have its problems, but I guess its a lucky thing most people there actually are allowed to voice their opinions about it. As opposed to very strictly controlled nations....

I think the internet also opens up people's mind because they have more access to information. Knowledge is power, so let's keep at it! :)

[SIMKINETICS]

@XieYali Being older, I have this perspective: Americans have been losing freedoms, and voting has become more of a choice between very few pre-determined candidates. So, what you say about the internet is true; its information dissemination can help us out in educating us. The problem is that our public education has lost its priority & quality, leaving the ones who would benefit most with the worst, threatening our democracy with a host of functional illiterates in the electorate.

[SIMKINETICS]

@XieYali Furthermore, what's missing most in compulsory public education is early, intense introduction to critical thinking that can frame all subsequent learning for individuals. People must learn to think for themselves at an early age. Discerning fact from fiction is vital in a democracy. The poor quality of logic, grammar, spelling & sentence structure is evidence of this shortcoming, as seen in blogs & comments.

[scotttebben]

Its not very nice outside. I think it may rain tonight. Make sure you bring in the cloths before you leave. I love you.

[procommenter]

In the Spirit of the Founders, as they did not lend the upper-case to "united." i deemed it appropriate not to capitalize the 1st-person pronoun.

[procommenter]

School history books maintain that Geo. Washington was our 1st president. Why then does Gen. Washington, in official communiques, address John Hanson as "President of the united States"? {Yes i know, "united" was not capitalized in the original united States Constitution.}

[procommenter]

"I resign my Spirit to God, my daughter to my country." -- Thos. Jefferson's dying words

[jjfyke]

Actually, his dying words were: "Is it the 4th?" I've never heard that he said that; it doesn't sound like something he would have said.

[procommenter]

You know little of Jefferson. He espoused Christian precepts in public pronouncements throughout his life. He was not a saint, of course.

[jjfyke]

He may have espoused Christian precepts in public as all politicians must, but it is clear he was not a believer in superstition. His Jefferson Bible is evidence of that as it is the Bible stripped of the miracles and such.

Jefferson was a man of the enlightenment and science who advocated total separation of Church and State, a "Wall of Separation," he called it. Most likely he was not an atheist, but he was not a Christian either. Most likely, personally, he was a Deist.

[procommenter]

Thomas Jefferson claimed to be a Christian. Pillow-talk aside, he abided by the Ten Commandments and advised others to do likewise. His children were baptized; Protestant services were held at Monticello. You're philosophizing, as all revisionists must, to make historical luminaries fit your mold.

[jjfyke]

Thomas Jefferson may have claimed to be a Christian, and in many ways he was a moral Christian, but he had was by no means a conventional Christian who takes all the Bible to be literal truth. You know only of Jefferson what you want to know.

[procommenter]

I only know Jefferson, as he died in 1826 just before I was born, in the only way that any of us may know him: by his public pronouncements. You must have a link to him through the tarot.

I'm not a Christian, I attend no church and I reject your childish religion of pig-headed-revisionists' "atheism" as well.

[jjfyke]

The pig-headed revisionists are the ones that came up with that absurd line you "quoted" above.

[jjfyke]

Type in "Jefferson's Last Words" in google and see what you find. All I can find is: "Is it the 4th?"

[procommenter]

I've a bk. commemorating the original cast of S.N.L. Beneath a picture of Jim Belushi it says "John Belushi." Several yrs. ago the U.S.P.O. printed $500,000 dollars' worth of stamps featuring Hubert Horatio Humphrey. They put the wrong dates of his tenure as V.P. The test for U.S. citizenship, several yrs. ago, listed Ronald Reagan's presidency as being 1980-1988. The news outlets claim Obama is President-Elect. Till the electoral college casts its votes he's the Presumptive P.-E.

[jjfyke]

Ok, I'll put it this way: what's your source for your quote above?

[jjfyke]

Dunglison, Randolph, and Trist recall that Jefferson slept through the day on July 3 and woke in the evening, evidently thinking it was morning. According to Dunglison, Jefferson asked on waking, "Is it the Fourth?" To which Dunglison replied, "It soon will be." Dunglison then says these were the last words he heard Jefferson utter.

-from "The Jefferson Encyclopedia" (on-line)

[jjfyke]

Trist records Jefferson's question in a slightly different form: "This is the Fourth?" (a question Trist pretended not to hear so he wouldn't have to inform Jefferson that it was still July 3). But Jefferson was insistent: "This is the Fourth?" he asked again. This time Trist nodded in assent, though he says he found the deception "repugnant."

[jjfyke]

Dunglison's account is in The Autiobiographical Ana of Robley Dunglison, M.D. (Philadelphia, 1963), as well as in Randall, Life, 3:547-549..

[procommenter]

Thomas Jefferson

Is it the Fourth? [Asked of his doctor, Robley Dunglison, who replied, "It soon will be."] I resign my spirit to God, my daughter to my country. [Like John Adams, Jefferson died on the fiftieth anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence.] -- also confirmed in "The Last Words of Distinguished Men and Women" by Frederic Rowland Marvin (1902), p. 152

[jjfyke]

Nicholas Trist's recollection of the death watch is printed in Randall, Life, 3:546.

[jjfyke]

All these things you listed, you can demonstrate they are falsehoods. Just as I have demonstrated that your quote is a false-hood. Although, unlike the typographical errors you cite, your mis-quote is a fabrication designed to make Jefferson something he was not.

[procommenter]

I do possess a reprint of Bombaugh's 1905: "Facts and Fancies for the Curious" with Jefferson's dying words: "I resign my Spirit to God, my daughter to my country." Put the entire quote into Google.

[procommenter]

I wouldn't misquote nor quote out-of-context anyone. I'm interested in real history only. Let the cookie crumble. "Atheists," on the other hand, are willing to resort to name-calling from the get-go. "To err is human; to forgive: divine." ["Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."

-- Motto on Thos. Jefferson's seal [Circa 1776] -- p. 1002, "Familiar Quotations" by John Bartlett (1955)] I have 1,000's of books going back to 1815.

[jjfyke]

Strange that final line was not in Dunglison's original account but showed up later in "Facts and Fancies."

Strange for someone who stripped the Bible of all the fantastic elements would resign his spirit to God (and of course, he did not specify Jehovah). Oh well, if "Facts and Fancies" has it so, who am I to argue.

And as for your implication that I am an atheist, well, you are again wrong. I am not an atheist, but I know one when I see him.

[procommenter]

Thos. Jefferson, like all Human Beings, was a contradictory Spiritual entity. He questioned life, death, freedom & servitude. He praised the tenets of Christianity while taking his late wife's tee-aged half sister {Sally Hemings} as his life-long mistress.

[procommenter]

My error: I inadvertently

omitted the "n" in teen-aged.

[jjfyke]

I agree there are major contradictions in Jefferson's writings and actions. With regard to his spirituality, he wrote at times like a devout believer in God, however, he was primarily a man of science and the enlightenment in general. I believe there is another quote where he says he approaches death with neither fear nor hope. It sounds like he expects nothing after life. And as Gore Vidal says, one cannot be afraid of no thing. I suppose nothing offers no hope as well.

[procommenter]

Jefferson is no candidate for sainthood neither is he the cartoon character as portrayed by Hitchens. Jefferson would consider Hitchens' "biography" perfidious. I stand by my claim that Hitchens indulges in historical revisionism. Like other American "journalists" {teleprompter readers}, Hitchens believes himself to be far more important & newsworthy than those whom he writes about.

[jjfyke]

So you've read Hitchens book?

[jjfyke]

Also, there is no doubt Jefferson would find the book "perfidious." But that does not make the book untrue. Actually, the more true it is, the more perfidious Jefferson would find its publication, no?

[clawdfrawg]

sorry I gave your coment thumbs down, I clicked the wrong thumb.

[jjfyke01]

No sweat.

[pcoldham]

I'm no expert on Haitian history here, but Hitch seems to make a technical error at 0:45 saying Haiti was called Santo-Domingo at the time. I think it was called Saint-Domingue since 1697. Santo-Domingo was the name for the Spanish part of the island. Can anyone confirm this?

[adknerr]

You are correct on this... he doesn't sort of fumble over the pronounciation, but has the story down correct. Saint-Domingue was the French side of the island, which became Haiti after the slave revolution.

[54321pbs]

be thankful we live in a time when such non-religious art could be commissioned!

[thruthem]

I am not an idolater but if by some odd twist of fate I were to become one, the two statues in my home would bear a strong resemblance to Hitchens and Jefferson.