Believe in your heart and confess with your tongue and you shall be saved...God gives all men the option and he reveals himself to all men. While salvation is timing, in which the act is initiated by God, we ultimately make the choice. It says they were not sheep but it was their choice to not be part of his flock. God confronted me with salvation, but my yes had to align with His yes. If this poor interpretation of scripture is true...then what's the point of true evangelism? Not that I agree
Sounds like the preaching of predestination; that God has predestined some to salvation, and others to condemnation.
There is much to be said, however, to the fact ithat man is NOT saved when he is "born again": for that is only a call to repent. Salvation is by being born "...of the water and of the Spirit." That enables one to enter into the kingdom.
@ThePhnxman1 Evidence = facts that support a conclusion. Example: There is no life after death because no one has any evidence of anything else. or Giant squids exist, here is a video and three statements from freighter captains. That would be evidence.
@ThePhnxman1 I want facts that support your position. You say Jesus came into human history as a supernatural being, then there ought to be facts that establish that position, do you have any?
@SamWiseGingy - First things first: what evidence do you have that I mentioned "life after death...", etc.? After all, whats good for the goose is good for the gander!
@ThePhnxman1 - First things first: what evidence do you have that I mentioned "life after death...", etc.? After all, whats good for the goose is good for the gander!
@lasvegasdaril - According to scripture: "For by grace are you saved through faith...it is the gift of God."
Now, what do you mean bu "ALL": the whole world, those saved by predestination, or those saved by believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached by his apostles and prophets?
@MezlaFilms Joel Osteen's church is growing leaps and bounds simply because HE IS NOT PREACHING THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST. If he's preaching it, then his church will not be that popular. (see Matthew 10:22, 1 Corinthians 1:18, 2:14, Romans 8:6-7) a true Christ centered church will not be that popular if they truly preach God's word. that all men offended a Holy and perfect God, that all men have sinned, all men is utterly sinful and destined to hell and that all needs redemption.
@MezlaFilms everyone can only be saved through Jesus Christ. Jesus died for the sins of the world. when he hung on the cross, he bore OUR sins and take the wrath of God upon himself. He died and rose again so that someday we might have eternal life with God.
this is interesting! remember the cross? what happened there if faith is not what saves, justifies, sanctifies and regenerates a man? the authors are forgetting one very important thing. GRACE! which is "the divine influence on the heart, and the EVIDENCE of that influence in our lives. Jesus was not explaining the Nicodemus HOW TO BE born again, He was saying "you must be" "and if you do not believe that I AM He the you will die in your sins" get it. Calvinism is funny!
In my case, I used to go to a church, I used to have a strong faith in God and I seriously wanted to dedicate my life to Christ, for a long time I believed that. However the doctrine of election, which I believed, on contrary to many of my fellow Christians actually took me out of the faith, by a continuous hesitation that there was nothing that indeed prooved my salvation, no life changing force, and that there was nothing I could do to acquire my salvation... there is nothing I can do...
Calvinism = the new (OLD) mainline (DEAD) Protestantism. I'm not a fan of the trendy "seeker-sensitive" approach but there are HOLES in Calvinism taken to it's ultimate silliness is dangerous and wack. Many of the scriptures used in this video are so out of context.
Calvinism has never been called heresy whereas Arminianism has. I am a Latina/Jewish girl who has known God since early childhood. In fact, I do not remember a time when I didn't believe in God.
...And He drew me to His Son, just as the Calvinists say, just as the Bible says.
Calvinism is definitely not 'silly' and where are the holes? Show me just one hole!
The truth is, Calvinism IS Christianity; it is the Word, rightly divided.
"But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty, and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His Presence."
I would like to see this video from beginning to end instead of in seperately labeled parts. Anybody know what the whole video is called and where to find it???
As a Lutheran, it should be pointed out that the difference is not "Calvinist and non-Calvinist," but
Augustinian and Pelagian.
Arminianism is essentially based on the anthropology of pre-reformation Rome, which owes more to the heretic Pelagius than to Augustine. And the question is how Scripture defines depravity, not how theologians do.
Also, part of the mystery (hidden truth) is that we MUST accept Christ, although that is not a work because no one cann accept anything that is not given, making the giver the important one not the accepter.
We must not forget scriptures that tell us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
When a doctrine has "problem scriptures" the problem is with the human reasoning and doctrine, not the scriptures!!!
here's another question, why does spiritual death has to mean death of common sense and free will too? Is that biblical? Which scripture support that?
you are just trying to use different words. people argue that the calvinist won't give some men faith or understanding and send them to hell. but you won't fault the arminian for the same thing.
If God gives everyone every ability that they have then any understanding they is given as a secondary cause of their understanding and ability. So if one was given more ability to come to truth then another why did God not give them more. Why did God not work harder to persuade them.
Why do some receive faith, while others don't? Scripture doesn't say. Calvinism and Arminianism alike try to reconcile a paradox Scripture leaves unresolved through human philosophical speculation.
He who is saved is saved through a faith that is a gift from first to last. He who is lost is lost by rejecting that gift. How these two things can both be true, only a God who is smarter than any of us can explain. But it's what Scripture clearly teachers.
The calvinist do not try and reconcile a paradox. as you stated faith is a gift by the grace of God. wholly unearned and freely given based upon no merit of the one who receives that grace. This is not unresolved left to speculation. It is clear that all that is good comes from God, and man can add nothing to it
my earlier point was that the arminian argues it is unjust on God's part to give the faith to one and not another yet they free themselves of that same burden that falls in their lap.
But here's my problem, if no person is seeking after God how come the overwhelming majority has some kind of religion, as if they know they are suppose to worship someone or something, it could be a false god, but doesn't that prove that people are in a way aware of that there is a God somewhere somehow, and that they know they need Him? God is sovereign I know that, but for anyone to say this is how God shld exercise His sovereignty, is guilty of putting God in box, that's kind of cult like.
OK here we go down the Cult Line, The Bible states we are Dead, not sick. We need to be Born again, a New Birth not just given a little band aid we will feel better and off we go. People all over the world look for answers but only Christ gives them eyes to see and ears to hear.
you're right I get that, salvation is through spiritual rebirth or regeneration through Christ, but you didn't answer my question, if no one seeks after God, how come the overwhelming majority has some kind of religion FALSE it maybe but you cannot deny that people seem to be looking for something or someone to worship. How do you reconcile that reality with what you are claiming, i'm not saying the bible is wrong, but it's you might be reading something that's not in there.
in total depravity and spiritual death there is obviously going to be the desire to be fulfilled. this desire will not seek God as the fulfilling need, rather as paul states that exchange a truth for a lie and worship things made by man...
what you have said or asked is on the point. in this state of total depravity man will never choose what is right, yet will still have a yearning because they are convicted by their conscience that declares them guilty.
This is mainly the point of contention, the churchy words "depravity" and "spiritual death" means different to a calvinist point of view than from a non-calvinist.
Total depravity to you means, death of common sense, and death of free will, right or wrong?
Total depravity to me means that I am not capable of being "good", as in God's standard of good which is the perfect kind of good, and therefor cannot save myself, but it doesn't mean the death of common sense and death of freewill.
I do not understand why you are bringing common sense into it. and stop arguing about calvinism.
it does not mean death of free will.
psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth. psalm 51:5 ,Ephesians 2:3
what about there are none righteous no not one and isaiah 64:6
Christ died to save the whole person not just a part of them. so for anyone who is to be protected by Christ blood, nothing of himself will be credited to him.
But here's my problem, if no person is seeking after God how come the overwhelming majority has some kind of religion, as if they know they are suppose to worship someone or something, it could be a false god, but doesn't that prove that people are in a way aware of that there is a God somewhere somehow, and that they know they need Him? God is sovereign I know that, but for anyone to say this is how God shld exercise His sovereignty, is guilty of putting God in box, that's kind of cult like.
Keep in mind that I could say that I have a bridge in San Francisco to sell you, but if I didn't have that bridge in reality, all my talk would be but empty words.
Maligns the character of God, period. I understand scriptural difficulties. It isn't something easily grasped, as admitted in this very video. But, when we suspect that scripture teaches something, no matter how much the text may appear clear, yet that teaching maligns the character of God, showing Him to be nothing more than a puppet master, you must suspect your understanding of the scripture to be off in that area. If this Calvinism is true, the whole Universe and God turn gray.
I'd like to add that I love a lot of what you post, and despise seeker-sensitive churches. I'm saddened, however, that this vid seems to link this seeker-sensitive cancer from hell with a lack of Calvinistic assent.
How does it malign the character of God? How does it "turn God and the whole universe gray". So far, all you've given are empty assertions. I could say, "no it doesn't", and, if that kind of "argumentation" is credible, both could be correct which would be absurd. Please present a coherent argument.
That is neither here nor there. All have sinned and fallen short. The problem is that if there is neither a chance not to sin, nor to be able to make a choice to get out from under it, then there would be no justice in God condemning me for it. In fact, without choice, there literally can be no transgression! Thankfully God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life!
Ah, but before you said "free-will". Now you're saying "choice". The two are not synonymous.
Back to the main issue, though. In order for God to be unjust, He would purposely have to be holding something that we deserve. Can you tell me which work it is that you hold makes us deserving of salvation? Your position as you state it now is that, even though we've broken God's law and are condemned, He owes us at least the possibility of salvation. (cont...)
So, in reality, the issue of original sin is "here and there." You say, "there would be no justice in God condemning me for it." yet, original sin teaches that we're all born guilty and God would be just in condemning us for it. So the issue really does come down a lot to whether you hold to the orthodox doctrine of original sin. Do you hold to it?
Sorry again for the switch in accounts. Also, there seems to be some trouble when trying to reply directly to your comments, so this results in funny formatting, at least on the actual video page.
My reason for saying that original sin, whether correct or not, doesn't matter is for the fact that nobody can deny that we are, in fact, guilty of sin. How it ultimately came about isn't my concern here.
What is my concern is that God cannot justly hold anyone accountable for their actions if they didn't have the ability to choose the opposite of, or at least refrain from, those actions.
Yes, and you do, too, if you're consistent. You said, "nobody can deny that we are, in fact, guilty of sin." Then you said, "God cannot justly hold anyone accountable for their actions if they didn't have the ability to choose the opposite of, or at least refrain from, those actions."
So your position is basically God can't hold guilty people accountable. It doesn't make any sense. Either you believe in original sin or you don't. You can't have it both ways.
*My point* Is that God can't hold anyone guilty, period, unless they have the ability to refrain from what they are supposed to be guilty of. How can there be transgression if there is no option not to "transgress"?
Justify this: You rig someones car to accelerate to a very high speed and disable the brakes. The person drives off and becomes reckless as they try to avoid slamming into others, but eventually there is an accident. Then you condemn that driver to prison for manslaughter.
I can't justify that because that's not the doctrine of double predestination. You and I would both agree that God doesn't put sin in someone's heart.
The point of it is, either you believe in original sin or you don't. Either people are born guilty or they're not. If they're born guilty then they don't deserve salvation. Saying that someone "deserves salvation" means that there is a single work that the person can claim as being what gets or got them saved. Then God would be unjust.
My conclusion remains that God necessarily is unjust in Calvinistic thought.
You agreed that for one to be justly held guilty they must have had the ability to refrain from doing what they are supposed to be guilty of, as per my example above, yet Calvinism leaves no room for anyone to do anything other than "sin".
"You agreed that for one to be justly held guilty they must have had the ability to refrain from doing what they are supposed to be guilty of,"
I said that they have a choice. I didn't say what all you just said. Way to misrepresent me and eisegete my comment.
Because a person does have a choice, though, doesn't mean they have the ability in and of themselves of making the right choice. There's a huge leap from that and what you're advocating I said.
"You are proving my point perfectly. There can be no just judgment of sin because there is no ability to do anything other than sin."
In point of fact, you're proving my point perfectly that you don't believe in original sin. Sure, you may say you do, but I also get emails daily from people saying that they have $10 million to give me from their dead uncle. Merely saying it doesn't make you credible.
Yes, I sin. I know sin *is* real. How it came about (original sin true or not) isn't the problem.
Calvinism leaves no room for anyone to do anything other than to "sin". By definition then God would have to be unjust to hold anyone accountable for their sin. It couldn't possibly be judged as sin, period. This is the real $10 million dollar question. How does Calvinism allow anyone the freedom to not sin?
Edit: I should open that question up a little I think. Try this:
***How does Calvinism allow anyone the freedom to not sin, or the ability to get out from under it?***
If you can show how this is possible in Calvinism---either the ability for anyone to refrain from sin or the ability to choose to get out from under it---then my argument falls.
If you cannot, then God necessarily cannot justly find us sinners.
that is what regeneration is for until then we are all enemies of God.
romans 9:20But who indeed are you a mere human being to talk back to God? Does what is molded say to the molder, Why have you made me like this?Has the potter no right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special use and another for ordinary use?But what if God, willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath prepared for destruction
"Because a person does have a choice, though, doesn't mean they have the ability in and of themselves of making the right choice. "
What? It's like saying I have three choices option 1, option 2, option 3, but you're saying I have no ability to and cannot choose option 1, i can only choose 2 and 3, that's not much of a choice is it? What you gave with your right hand you took back with your left.
Your statement violates the law of non contradiction and therefor makes no sense.
When Jonah refused to obey, was it God who was making Jonah disobey?
My statement still stands, you cannot be in both extreme of this argument without being wrong, God is sovereign, in His sovereignty He exercises His permissive will, for man to able to choose or reject Him. You can't put God in a box, else you'll be guilty of playing god.
However, you also can't play God by accepting the notion that man (whom we agree is absolutely sinful) can choose what is righteous. If we could make that choice, we wouldn't need God. I think you're going too far to say that this idea is putting God in a box. Remember, it was man who chose sin for himself, and consequently deserves eternal punishment for it. Yet God, in His mercy (and by His design and will, not ours) chose some to be saved from damnation.
Wrong. People saved or not christian and non-christians, spiritually dead or born again all can choose to do a righteous act, however any righteous act of any person does not merrit him/her any righteousness as far as God is concerned.
Focus on the issue, a lot of calvinist seem to have ADD when trying to address this issue, did God took away freedom when man died spiritually because of sin? Where in the bible does it support that spiritual deadness equals = loss of freedom to choose?
I'm sorry I was unclear. You are correct. Any person can perform a righteous act, yet no such act merits salvation. However, what I'm saying is that these righteous acts (whether from Christians or non-Christians) are not prompted by our desires as humans, but are because of the effect of Christ. Secondly, I did not say that God took away freedom to choose; Adam did. It was his choice (yes, he had free will) to sin that enslaved all humans to sin. Only God's call and regeneration can redeem us.
Also, I'd like to apologize if I sounded condemning. I'm simply trying to explain to the best of my ability what I truly believe the Scripture teaches. However, if you are a believer in he message of Christ, then you are a brother in Christ, regardless of doctrine.
So we're on the same page "Any person can perform a righteous act".
So then, freedom to choose still exists within man, if that's the case, then isn't it possible that the freedom to choose what is right includes the freedom to choose to respond to the gospel.
But you might revert back to your belief that spiritually dead people cannot respond or choose God, but I will ask again, where in the bible does it say spiritual deadness = loss of freedom to choose?
Spiritual death was the result of Adam's sin. Jesus said 'No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him to Me, and I will raise him up at the last day'.
So man cannot choose Christ.
The Father draws his elect to Christ. Faith is a gift from God.
I take no offense at all you don't have to apologize...I'm doing the same thing you're trying to do...and my statement stands, that one cannot be on either extreme of this issue without being wrong, you take it too far to the left or to the right, in my humble understanding is wrong.
There is truth there. I would agree on the subject of extremes. And I guess, in a sense there is a 'choice' made when a person receives the Gospel. But this choice is brought about by God's effectual call. That is, a person WILL choose to repent and believe once God's message has affected him. What I'm trying to say is that, WITHOUT God's call, man would not choose God, but sin. Does that make more sense?
I agree that without the revelation of God, without His prompting, or without the work of the Holy Spirit man is incapable of finding Him, But still God in His permissive will allowed man to have the freedom to reject or choose Him, when the Gospel is heard.
But I don't think that's pure Calvinism anymore, and some Calvinist might disagree on that...
A relationship in this context is 'inter-personal' and love is 'an act of free will'. Is it truly a loving relationship if by some means, one way or another, good or bad, one person within it is 'manipulated' into engagement in the relationship? E.g., If I drugged a lady with some sort of love-potion that caused an influx in her hormones to the extent that she felt a strong sense of 'love' toward me, then I took advantage and scooped her up in marraige, would that be a real love relationship?
The whole of the council of God ONLY shows the sovereignty of God, it does not show in any portion, an effective ability of man to ever successfully do the will of God alone and without the help of God. God is absolutely necessary (and more accurately), the very source of good works, faith, repentance, obedience to the will of God, etc..
Jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. this slam on armenianism is baloney. The Spirit must 1st draw (convict) a man, then the person, out of his free will, has a choice to receive the gift or not. quite a lot of false teaching on this channel. this will probably be censored
According to Christ, all that God gives Him will come to Him. There is no mention of rejection in this sovereign act of God. Also, where does it say anywhere in the Bible that man's will is free? One verse would suffice.
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast REJECTED knowledge, I will also REJECT thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Mk 7:8-9 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye REJECT the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
what, in these verses, is not explained by a reformed theology holding faithfully to Rm 11:1-8?
I.e. scripture clearly holds- and reformed theology does likewise- that not all within israel were pure israel, that the elect within the nation of God were faithful. Of course, those outside of this remnant (re: Rm 11) rejected truth and rejected the commandments, replacing them for tradition. But this isn't contrary to Ref Theo. Why these verses are cited as contrary to it is baffling.
So what you are saying is God can draw us to Him with grace, but we must accept Him and let Him save us? So our choice ultimately is the factor that saves us. Cool so we control God, thus we are gods. If we can freely will to over power God why don,t we will to never go to hell, but will to live like the devil? Seriously though, my God saves your God is in your imagination.
I find it a difficult concept that the relationships between GOD and HIS people would be one that is orchestrated completely by HIM. What's relational about such a set up? If GOD orchestrates the whole thing, why did HE let it slip up in the first place with the fall of Adam & Eve? Why did HE not give them irresistable Grace to continue in their covenant relationship with HIM?
The whole concept is difficult to comprehend. Can you clarify, please.
Sorry to comment on a dead post, but I want to try to answer this. I think that the one thing you're forgetting is that without God creating humans, there would be no relationship. Additionally, God did allow humans to have a "will" (thus there was a relationship and humans actively took part). However, upon man's decision to sin, we lost the will to choose what is righteous. It is God who saves those whom he wills (and who are we to know understand his will?) out of his mercy. Hope this helped!
So narrow and rigid. What do you think Jesus meant by the following: "'You are Israel's teacher,' said Jesus, 'and do you not understand these things? I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.'" (John 3:10-11) So why does he speak of teaching dead men? Election is a function of God's eternity and we beings-in-time will never understand it. It is beyond us in His Glory!
This talks about two groups. All who are in the first Adam die; all who are in the second Adam shall be made alive. It isn't using universal "all's" in either respect.
Did you figure that out when you posted that previous comment on another video and it said, "Comment Pending Approval"? If so, good deal. This boy is teachable, folks.
I realy hate when people try to interpret the bible. I happen to believe in the holy trinity, but when people start to pick nd choose which parts of the bible they are going to follow it bugs me. If jesus taught that all life is sacred, and we must love our neighbor as ourselves, then how can the church still descriminate and condem gays???
How can you beleive that jesus doesnt love gay people?! Jesus taught that he had new laws and that we didnt have to follow all of the ancient old testament laws. If you are to believe in Jesus christ, then you are to believe in a message of universal love. Did jesus not forgive everyone? If you believe that god hates gays, then you sir/madam, are a hipocrite. "I pass judgement on no man, but if i do judge, my judgement is valid because i know where i come from..." (John 3:14)
nope...quite the opposite. I think that no one, especially some naive organization should determine who loves who. certain laws in the bible were created for health reasons, such as the no pork ones. This fits in under that. Butt sex is rather dangerous. Butt nowadays, we do not worry which such rules, but some people such as yourself decide to discriminate others peoples culture and decisions.
in all actuality i do believe the bible, i simply don't believe in the church. You seem to enjoy quoting scripture at the ends of your comments, but take this into account; the point of CHRISTianity is that they follow the New Testament. Care to find me an anti gay quote in the new testament?
I already provided one, but since you're not aware of that, here it is:
Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, NOR ἀρσενοκοίτης, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual
Take that into account with the Old Testament Scriptures which one must if they truly do believe the Bible and you are shown that the Bible clearly teaches that homosexuality is sin and unrepentant homosexuals go to hell forever.
congradulations you found a synonym for gay. does that realy have anything to do whith the bible? If you care to take the bible literaly in every sense then i sugest you take a hefty rock and throw them at promiscuous people. go to a local heavenly ham store and burn it. Take up the harp. Dont do a single thing on sunday. The bible is full of about 15% crap, that is only realevent at the time period. I do not fully beleive the church or the bible like you say i must, but i still believe in god.
The seeker sensitive movement is a FALSE TEACHING, the name says it all, Seeker Sensitive... you're gonna compromise the gospel to fit the mold of the secular movement. I feel sad for those who buy into this false gospel, the word of God prepares us to beware of this and the FALSE teachings. WE are seeing it so clearly in this vid, so thanks for posting it!
Oh wow. The mission of my former church was for the members to "seek and save that which was lost". This video really cleared some things up for me. Thanks for posting it.
I don't even know where to start with that caricature other than by saying that Calvinism was not invented by John Calvin. It was nicknamed that by the Reformation, but it was really a revert back to the teachings of Scripture.
hmmm Calvinism is named after what John Calvin (b.1509) taught. Calvin taught Augustinianism which is named after what Augustine (b.354) taught. Augustine taught what the Bible taught.
I'm not sure about your last question, so I don't want to answer it either way and be misleading. What I do understand about it, though, is that there is a conviction that does not lead to saving repentance and there is a conviction that does lead to saving faith. Judas had conviction and repentance after he sold Jesus, but it wasn't saving conviction and repentance.
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."
:50-1:15 "You have to have faith in order to be born again? This is the exact opposite of what Jesus said in John chapter 3. As a matter of fact, in response to the question how to be born again Jesus did not say repent and believe, he said it's like the wind..." The speaker clearly downplays the role of the repentance. He makes it sound like "BAM - You're saved!"
I'm posting another clip of it at the top called "Why Modern 'Evangelism' Is Not Evangelism at All". You will see that it preaches against sin and doesn't downplay it.
I guess the speaker is trying to say that they Holy Spirit just shows up and saves whom He wills, whereas I think the face value interpretation is clarifying Nicodemus's understanding of 'born again.' Nicodemus is thinking physical rebirth and Jesus is simply saying this is a spiritual rebirth. In order to be reborn spiritually we must die to our sins and self. I guess the age old question still is whether this is a 100% God-thing or if man has any will in it at all.
"I guess the age old question still is whether this is a 100% God-thing or if man has any will in it at all."
That is the question. There are numerous other passages in Scripture that talk as faith being a gift, and when you take that into consideration, it makes sense when Jesus replies to Nicodemus.
I guess the whole thing defies logic to me! Meaning God gave Adam free will to sin, but does not give us any free will to respond to His Good News. I might be dead in my sins, but hearing the Gospel is enough to breathe to life into me!
Well, the question then is this: If you and your neighbor hear the same Gospel message, why would you believe and your neighbor go away in disgust? Is it that you're smarter than him? Is it because you are more keen than him? Maybe more wise? Or is it because "God chose you in him before the foundation of the world?" (Eph. 1:4) that you would hear the Gospel and believe? See, one view gives merit to man, the other gives merit to God's sovereign grace.
I can't say that I give merit to man, rather there is a response on the part of man. After all, we're told to go and *make* disciples -- not discover or find.
Also, Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Someone has gotta preach it for faith to come...
It's true the someone has to preach it because by the hearing comes faith, but the point is, what makes the difference in someone that believes and someone that doesn't? Of course, the examples you've given are reasons someone doesn't believe, but what makes the difference in the believer? Why would the believer not love his sin and the unbeliever still love it? Is it because the believer is smarter than the unbeliever? Maybe a better personality? What makes the difference?
I guess this brings up another of the 'classic' questions: can someone who is dead in his sins respond at all? I would like to think that one can be open to the Gospel message vs. not so much (a la 4 Soils parable)
"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God" - Jn 1:12
It seems as if there is a series of ideas that are then strung together that I don't like (still trying to figure out the truth, though!): man chooses to sin, God will judge righteously, those going to heaven are only those who God raises from their spiritually dead condition, God negelects others therefore they must go to Hell regardless - sorry about their 'luck'. I just cling to the hope that people have some sort of chance, I guess...
Well, we're all born into sin by Adam. No one is innocent. If God would have never made the promise to Abraham, he would have been perfectly just to send everyone to hell so since he chooses to have grace on anyone, it is grace indeed, and is a gift.
I believe God can draw all (all meaning all) men through the person of the Holy Spirit, and that when Jesus came to save the world, he meant the world. And when scripture says that God wants none (meaning none) to perish but all (meaning all) to come to repentance He means it. You're right it's not what I want, it's what he wants! Grace is a free gift extended to all! :)
I believe that he wants none to perish but all to come to repentance, but the question is all of whom? None of whom? I'm going to post a video on the top that you should watch. It is called "Not Willing that ANY Should Perish. ANY of WHOM?"
If you're going to tell me that God wants none of those He picked for His team to perish and wants all of His team to come to repentance, that seems to defy a face value interpretation and still begs the question of God damning the majority of people (the broad road, wide gate many) before they were even born.
1 Pet 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father
1. Christ came to seek and save the lost [Past tense. He came, he found, and he saved us!]
2. "One of the most misunderstood teachings of the modern era: what it means to be born again. Most Christians have been taught that as a sinner repents of his sins and puts his faith in God, he becomes born again." Maybe because Jesus and John the Baptist said repent and believe...
3. It downplays faith and repentance, and turns salvation into a mystery -- like the wind.
4. All responsibility rests with God. Man can do nothing at all. - Why have any Christian disciplines at all? I should just live a life of sin. If I'm part of the "God's Team," He'll make sure I get saved in the end. I may miss out on rewards, but I can have my cake and eat it too!
5. Born again and justification are two different things...but are they really *that* different???
People saved or not christian and non-christians, spiritually dead or born again all can choose to do a righteous act, however any righteous act of any person does not merrit him/her any righteousness as far as God is concerned.
Focus on the issue here, a lot of calvinist seem to have ADD when trying to address this issue, did God took away freedom when man died spiritually because of sin? Where in the bible does it support that spiritual deadness equals = loss of freedom to choose?
The whole debate over the doctines of election and predestined salvation against who is unable or able to be saved or if salvation is for anyone has Jesus said in the scipture "Jeruselem, Jeruselem, you who kills the prophets and those sent to you..."
I think I understand what you're saying, but correct me if I'm wrong: Are you having trouble with the doctrine of predestination/election with how it can fit in to a person's free will?
Not really. I just want to know how things really work. Did Jesus died for the sins of ALL mankind or only for which were apperently chosen by God for salvation before the foundation of the earth and creation? Does the Holy Spirit convict everyone or just people chosen by God to be saved?
"Did Jesus died for the sins of ALL mankind or only for which were apperently chosen by God for salvation before the foundation of the earth and creation?"
Jesus died as payment of the sins of everyone who believes on Him. The only people who do believe or who are going to believe are God's elect who were chosen before the foundation of the earth.
Believe in your heart and confess with your tongue and you shall be saved...God gives all men the option and he reveals himself to all men. While salvation is timing, in which the act is initiated by God, we ultimately make the choice. It says they were not sheep but it was their choice to not be part of his flock. God confronted me with salvation, but my yes had to align with His yes. If this poor interpretation of scripture is true...then what's the point of true evangelism? Not that I agree
Icd1994 1 month ago
Romans 11:7 not 17.. Sure someone already beat me to it :)
Aletheia828 7 months ago
Sounds like the preaching of predestination; that God has predestined some to salvation, and others to condemnation.
There is much to be said, however, to the fact ithat man is NOT saved when he is "born again": for that is only a call to repent. Salvation is by being born "...of the water and of the Spirit." That enables one to enter into the kingdom.
ThePhnxman1 8 months ago
You got any evidence that this is anything but primitive myth?
SamWiseGingy 8 months ago
@SamWiseGingy - "Evil men seeka sign...". Even if you saw a sign, you would attribute it to coincidence, or give it some other cause.
ThePhnxman1 8 months ago
@ThePhnxman1
It is a sin to ask for evidence, right?
SamWiseGingy 8 months ago
@SamWiseGingy - Let's see...give me YOUR definition of evidence, or what you think constitutes evidence.
ThePhnxman1 8 months ago
@ThePhnxman1 Evidence = facts that support a conclusion. Example: There is no life after death because no one has any evidence of anything else. or Giant squids exist, here is a video and three statements from freighter captains. That would be evidence.
SamWiseGingy 8 months ago
@SamWiseGingy - So, you want a video and three witnesses?
ThePhnxman1 8 months ago
@ThePhnxman1 I want facts that support your position. You say Jesus came into human history as a supernatural being, then there ought to be facts that establish that position, do you have any?
SamWiseGingy 8 months ago
@SamWiseGingy - Did I say that? Show me your "evidence".
ThePhnxman1 8 months ago
@ThePhnxman1
If your are asserting the reformed position you say that, and you are knit picking.
Look if you have evidence for angels, demons, and that Bible stuff produce it, otherwise admit you don't have any.
SamWiseGingy 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@SamWiseGingy - First things first: what evidence do you have that I mentioned "life after death...", etc.? After all, whats good for the goose is good for the gander!
ThePhnxman1 8 months ago
@ThePhnxman1 - First things first: what evidence do you have that I mentioned "life after death...", etc.? After all, whats good for the goose is good for the gander!
ThePhnxman1 8 months ago
Through the Grace of God we are ALL saved! calvinism and Seeker Sensitive Churches are Correct! That Is Why They grow so much!
lasvegasdaril 8 months ago
@lasvegasdaril - According to scripture: "For by grace are you saved through faith...it is the gift of God."
Now, what do you mean bu "ALL": the whole world, those saved by predestination, or those saved by believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached by his apostles and prophets?
ThePhnxman1 8 months ago
According this doctrine, a man is SAVED, before he believes.
Opposite of what the Bible teaches.
martinthezman 9 months ago
@martinthezman Yes, beware of modern calvinism.
filoIII 8 months ago
So I can pray to Jesus to the end of my days, but if I'm not one of the Elect, then I was created to fail.
Nice.
Mojosbigstick 1 year ago
this means that saving faith is a result of salvation, not a cause of it yeh?
Scottles293 1 year ago
But is Joel Olsteen's method "Seeker Sensitive" to the extreme? And yet his church is growing in leaps and bounds.
MezlaFilms 1 year ago
@MezlaFilms Matthew 10:22 "All men will hate you because of me..." - Jesus Christ
1 Corinthians 1:18 "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."
ascalagab09 10 months ago
@MezlaFilms Joel Osteen's church is growing leaps and bounds simply because HE IS NOT PREACHING THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST. If he's preaching it, then his church will not be that popular. (see Matthew 10:22, 1 Corinthians 1:18, 2:14, Romans 8:6-7) a true Christ centered church will not be that popular if they truly preach God's word. that all men offended a Holy and perfect God, that all men have sinned, all men is utterly sinful and destined to hell and that all needs redemption.
ascalagab09 10 months ago
@MezlaFilms everyone can only be saved through Jesus Christ. Jesus died for the sins of the world. when he hung on the cross, he bore OUR sins and take the wrath of God upon himself. He died and rose again so that someday we might have eternal life with God.
ascalagab09 10 months ago
On being born again-It happens and we experience it-. On evangelism- People are seen as sick in their sins and not dead in their sins.
theflarpus 1 year ago
this is interesting! remember the cross? what happened there if faith is not what saves, justifies, sanctifies and regenerates a man? the authors are forgetting one very important thing. GRACE! which is "the divine influence on the heart, and the EVIDENCE of that influence in our lives. Jesus was not explaining the Nicodemus HOW TO BE born again, He was saying "you must be" "and if you do not believe that I AM He the you will die in your sins" get it. Calvinism is funny!
MediumShag 1 year ago
In my case, I used to go to a church, I used to have a strong faith in God and I seriously wanted to dedicate my life to Christ, for a long time I believed that. However the doctrine of election, which I believed, on contrary to many of my fellow Christians actually took me out of the faith, by a continuous hesitation that there was nothing that indeed prooved my salvation, no life changing force, and that there was nothing I could do to acquire my salvation... there is nothing I can do...
kanutops 1 year ago
@kanutops There is something you can do - pray!
boan000 1 year ago
John 6:39 " And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day."
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
tdosoldier 1 year ago
Calvinism = the new (OLD) mainline (DEAD) Protestantism. I'm not a fan of the trendy "seeker-sensitive" approach but there are HOLES in Calvinism taken to it's ultimate silliness is dangerous and wack. Many of the scriptures used in this video are so out of context.
LatinSkinz 1 year ago
@LatinSkinz
Calvinism has never been called heresy whereas Arminianism has. I am a Latina/Jewish girl who has known God since early childhood. In fact, I do not remember a time when I didn't believe in God.
...And He drew me to His Son, just as the Calvinists say, just as the Bible says.
Calvinism is definitely not 'silly' and where are the holes? Show me just one hole!
The truth is, Calvinism IS Christianity; it is the Word, rightly divided.
silmalila 1 year ago
Thats right!
K1l1Bee 2 years ago
So sad that most people seek glory for themselves, instead of giving glory to the only One who is worthy.
The Lamb of God, slain from before the foundation of the world.
silmalila 2 years ago
"But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty, and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His Presence."
1 Corinthians 1:27-29
silmalila 2 years ago
I would like to see this video from beginning to end instead of in seperately labeled parts. Anybody know what the whole video is called and where to find it???
acedudeone 2 years ago
Amazing Grace: The History & Theology of Calvinism
jmpsv 2 years ago
As a Lutheran, it should be pointed out that the difference is not "Calvinist and non-Calvinist," but
Augustinian and Pelagian.
Arminianism is essentially based on the anthropology of pre-reformation Rome, which owes more to the heretic Pelagius than to Augustine. And the question is how Scripture defines depravity, not how theologians do.
bobwaters 2 years ago
Also, part of the mystery (hidden truth) is that we MUST accept Christ, although that is not a work because no one cann accept anything that is not given, making the giver the important one not the accepter.
We must not forget scriptures that tell us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
When a doctrine has "problem scriptures" the problem is with the human reasoning and doctrine, not the scriptures!!!
buzzbbird 2 years ago
I REALLY appreciate the simple explanation between the Armenian and Calvanist view on Salvation. There are a few shortcomings not addressed:
1. God gives to EVERY man the measure of faith, this must include those predestinated for perdition
2. Jesus said "come unto me all who are heavy laden and I will give you rest."
Using the book seller in the graveyard as a model, crist was calling to the same dead who can not come and cannot be burdened.
Calvanism is too simple to be true.
buzzbbird 2 years ago
here's another question, why does spiritual death has to mean death of common sense and free will too? Is that biblical? Which scripture support that?
neibthe 2 years ago
you are just trying to use different words. people argue that the calvinist won't give some men faith or understanding and send them to hell. but you won't fault the arminian for the same thing.
If God gives everyone every ability that they have then any understanding they is given as a secondary cause of their understanding and ability. So if one was given more ability to come to truth then another why did God not give them more. Why did God not work harder to persuade them.
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
Why do some receive faith, while others don't? Scripture doesn't say. Calvinism and Arminianism alike try to reconcile a paradox Scripture leaves unresolved through human philosophical speculation.
He who is saved is saved through a faith that is a gift from first to last. He who is lost is lost by rejecting that gift. How these two things can both be true, only a God who is smarter than any of us can explain. But it's what Scripture clearly teachers.
bobwaters 2 years ago
The calvinist do not try and reconcile a paradox. as you stated faith is a gift by the grace of God. wholly unearned and freely given based upon no merit of the one who receives that grace. This is not unresolved left to speculation. It is clear that all that is good comes from God, and man can add nothing to it
my earlier point was that the arminian argues it is unjust on God's part to give the faith to one and not another yet they free themselves of that same burden that falls in their lap.
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
But here's my problem, if no person is seeking after God how come the overwhelming majority has some kind of religion, as if they know they are suppose to worship someone or something, it could be a false god, but doesn't that prove that people are in a way aware of that there is a God somewhere somehow, and that they know they need Him? God is sovereign I know that, but for anyone to say this is how God shld exercise His sovereignty, is guilty of putting God in box, that's kind of cult like.
neibthe 2 years ago
OK here we go down the Cult Line, The Bible states we are Dead, not sick. We need to be Born again, a New Birth not just given a little band aid we will feel better and off we go. People all over the world look for answers but only Christ gives them eyes to see and ears to hear.
youratm 2 years ago
you're right I get that, salvation is through spiritual rebirth or regeneration through Christ, but you didn't answer my question, if no one seeks after God, how come the overwhelming majority has some kind of religion FALSE it maybe but you cannot deny that people seem to be looking for something or someone to worship. How do you reconcile that reality with what you are claiming, i'm not saying the bible is wrong, but it's you might be reading something that's not in there.
neibthe 2 years ago
in total depravity and spiritual death there is obviously going to be the desire to be fulfilled. this desire will not seek God as the fulfilling need, rather as paul states that exchange a truth for a lie and worship things made by man...
what you have said or asked is on the point. in this state of total depravity man will never choose what is right, yet will still have a yearning because they are convicted by their conscience that declares them guilty.
I hope this answers sufficiently.
JMackeyIII 2 years ago 2
This is mainly the point of contention, the churchy words "depravity" and "spiritual death" means different to a calvinist point of view than from a non-calvinist.
Total depravity to you means, death of common sense, and death of free will, right or wrong?
Total depravity to me means that I am not capable of being "good", as in God's standard of good which is the perfect kind of good, and therefor cannot save myself, but it doesn't mean the death of common sense and death of freewill.
neibthe 2 years ago
I do not understand why you are bringing common sense into it. and stop arguing about calvinism.
it does not mean death of free will.
psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth. psalm 51:5 ,Ephesians 2:3
what about there are none righteous no not one and isaiah 64:6
Christ died to save the whole person not just a part of them. so for anyone who is to be protected by Christ blood, nothing of himself will be credited to him.
JMackeyIII 2 years ago 2
Amen
blueangel2497 2 years ago
Great video, I just wish I could people not look over the word elect in their bibles. But i know I did for many years.
youratm 2 years ago
But here's my problem, if no person is seeking after God how come the overwhelming majority has some kind of religion, as if they know they are suppose to worship someone or something, it could be a false god, but doesn't that prove that people are in a way aware of that there is a God somewhere somehow, and that they know they need Him? God is sovereign I know that, but for anyone to say this is how God shld exercise His sovereignty, is guilty of putting God in box, that's kind of cult like.
neibthe 2 years ago
Thanks for all this Calvinist stuff. I didn't understand it too well, but these make it very clear that it is, in fact, heresy. Unbelievable!!!
THISISBRENTINOKINAWA 2 years ago
What *specifically* about it is heretical?
Keep in mind that I could say that I have a bridge in San Francisco to sell you, but if I didn't have that bridge in reality, all my talk would be but empty words.
LaneCh 2 years ago
Maligns the character of God, period. I understand scriptural difficulties. It isn't something easily grasped, as admitted in this very video. But, when we suspect that scripture teaches something, no matter how much the text may appear clear, yet that teaching maligns the character of God, showing Him to be nothing more than a puppet master, you must suspect your understanding of the scripture to be off in that area. If this Calvinism is true, the whole Universe and God turn gray.
brntoki 2 years ago
Sorry I'm replying from a different account.
I'd like to add that I love a lot of what you post, and despise seeker-sensitive churches. I'm saddened, however, that this vid seems to link this seeker-sensitive cancer from hell with a lack of Calvinistic assent.
brntoki 2 years ago
How does it malign the character of God? How does it "turn God and the whole universe gray". So far, all you've given are empty assertions. I could say, "no it doesn't", and, if that kind of "argumentation" is credible, both could be correct which would be absurd. Please present a coherent argument.
LaneCh 2 years ago
If free will vanishes then God would be unjust. He cannot justly send anyone to Hell for doing what was decreed he must do.
brntoki 2 years ago
When people are born, are they already going to heaven or hell? In other words, are they born with original sin and guilty, or are they not?
LaneCh 2 years ago
That is neither here nor there. All have sinned and fallen short. The problem is that if there is neither a chance not to sin, nor to be able to make a choice to get out from under it, then there would be no justice in God condemning me for it. In fact, without choice, there literally can be no transgression! Thankfully God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life!
THISISBRENTINOKINAWA 2 years ago
Ah, but before you said "free-will". Now you're saying "choice". The two are not synonymous.
Back to the main issue, though. In order for God to be unjust, He would purposely have to be holding something that we deserve. Can you tell me which work it is that you hold makes us deserving of salvation? Your position as you state it now is that, even though we've broken God's law and are condemned, He owes us at least the possibility of salvation. (cont...)
LaneCh 2 years ago
So, in reality, the issue of original sin is "here and there." You say, "there would be no justice in God condemning me for it." yet, original sin teaches that we're all born guilty and God would be just in condemning us for it. So the issue really does come down a lot to whether you hold to the orthodox doctrine of original sin. Do you hold to it?
LaneCh 2 years ago
Sorry again for the switch in accounts. Also, there seems to be some trouble when trying to reply directly to your comments, so this results in funny formatting, at least on the actual video page.
My reason for saying that original sin, whether correct or not, doesn't matter is for the fact that nobody can deny that we are, in fact, guilty of sin. How it ultimately came about isn't my concern here.
(Cont...)
THISISBRENTINOKINAWA 2 years ago
What is my concern is that God cannot justly hold anyone accountable for their actions if they didn't have the ability to choose the opposite of, or at least refrain from, those actions.
Do you disagree?
THISISBRENTINOKINAWA 2 years ago
Yes, and you do, too, if you're consistent. You said, "nobody can deny that we are, in fact, guilty of sin." Then you said, "God cannot justly hold anyone accountable for their actions if they didn't have the ability to choose the opposite of, or at least refrain from, those actions."
So your position is basically God can't hold guilty people accountable. It doesn't make any sense. Either you believe in original sin or you don't. You can't have it both ways.
LaneCh 2 years ago
*My point* Is that God can't hold anyone guilty, period, unless they have the ability to refrain from what they are supposed to be guilty of. How can there be transgression if there is no option not to "transgress"?
Justify this: You rig someones car to accelerate to a very high speed and disable the brakes. The person drives off and becomes reckless as they try to avoid slamming into others, but eventually there is an accident. Then you condemn that driver to prison for manslaughter.
THISISBRENTINOKINAWA 2 years ago
I can't justify that because that's not the doctrine of double predestination. You and I would both agree that God doesn't put sin in someone's heart.
The point of it is, either you believe in original sin or you don't. Either people are born guilty or they're not. If they're born guilty then they don't deserve salvation. Saying that someone "deserves salvation" means that there is a single work that the person can claim as being what gets or got them saved. Then God would be unjust.
LaneCh 2 years ago
So, since you agree that my example is not just, we also must agree that sinners *must* have real culpability in order to even be judged as sinners.
THISISBRENTINOKINAWA 2 years ago
I'm posting a video for you now. You simply don't understand my position. Hopefully that will help. Also, this video should help, too:
/watch?v=_Sawg2PX2aI
LaneCh 2 years ago
My conclusion remains that God necessarily is unjust in Calvinistic thought.
You agreed that for one to be justly held guilty they must have had the ability to refrain from doing what they are supposed to be guilty of, as per my example above, yet Calvinism leaves no room for anyone to do anything other than "sin".
THISISBRENTINOKINAWA 2 years ago
Well, thanks for giving your conclusions without really explaining why other than by saying that we sin. Do you not sin, THISISBRENTINOKINAWA?
LaneCh 2 years ago
"You agreed that for one to be justly held guilty they must have had the ability to refrain from doing what they are supposed to be guilty of,"
I said that they have a choice. I didn't say what all you just said. Way to misrepresent me and eisegete my comment.
Because a person does have a choice, though, doesn't mean they have the ability in and of themselves of making the right choice. There's a huge leap from that and what you're advocating I said.
LaneCh 2 years ago
So we have a choice but are only able to choose one thing... sin. How is that a choice again?
You can choose... just so long as you choose "x".
You are proving my point perfectly. There can be no just judgment of sin because there is no ability to do anything other than sin.
THISISBRENTINOKINAWA 2 years ago
"You are proving my point perfectly. There can be no just judgment of sin because there is no ability to do anything other than sin."
In point of fact, you're proving my point perfectly that you don't believe in original sin. Sure, you may say you do, but I also get emails daily from people saying that they have $10 million to give me from their dead uncle. Merely saying it doesn't make you credible.
LaneCh 2 years ago
Guess you need a better spam filter, Lane :)
Yes, I sin. I know sin *is* real. How it came about (original sin true or not) isn't the problem.
Calvinism leaves no room for anyone to do anything other than to "sin". By definition then God would have to be unjust to hold anyone accountable for their sin. It couldn't possibly be judged as sin, period. This is the real $10 million dollar question. How does Calvinism allow anyone the freedom to not sin?
THISISBRENTINOKINAWA 2 years ago
Edit: I should open that question up a little I think. Try this:
***How does Calvinism allow anyone the freedom to not sin, or the ability to get out from under it?***
If you can show how this is possible in Calvinism---either the ability for anyone to refrain from sin or the ability to choose to get out from under it---then my argument falls.
If you cannot, then God necessarily cannot justly find us sinners.
THISISBRENTINOKINAWA 2 years ago
that is what regeneration is for until then we are all enemies of God.
romans 9:20But who indeed are you a mere human being to talk back to God? Does what is molded say to the molder, Why have you made me like this?Has the potter no right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special use and another for ordinary use?But what if God, willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath prepared for destruction
JMackeyIII 2 years ago
@THISISBRENTINOKINAWA You do what you are.
Revinius 1 year ago
"Because a person does have a choice, though, doesn't mean they have the ability in and of themselves of making the right choice. "
What? It's like saying I have three choices option 1, option 2, option 3, but you're saying I have no ability to and cannot choose option 1, i can only choose 2 and 3, that's not much of a choice is it? What you gave with your right hand you took back with your left.
Your statement violates the law of non contradiction and therefor makes no sense.
neibthe 2 years ago
When you are dead in trespasses and sins, the only choice you have is how you will sin. We are slaves to sin in our unregenerated state.
The choice of salvation lies with God, who makes the choice.
silmalila 2 years ago
So is there a free will or is there not?
When Jonah refused to obey, was it God who was making Jonah disobey?
My statement still stands, you cannot be in both extreme of this argument without being wrong, God is sovereign, in His sovereignty He exercises His permissive will, for man to able to choose or reject Him. You can't put God in a box, else you'll be guilty of playing god.
neibthe 2 years ago
However, you also can't play God by accepting the notion that man (whom we agree is absolutely sinful) can choose what is righteous. If we could make that choice, we wouldn't need God. I think you're going too far to say that this idea is putting God in a box. Remember, it was man who chose sin for himself, and consequently deserves eternal punishment for it. Yet God, in His mercy (and by His design and will, not ours) chose some to be saved from damnation.
MnDxWRAITHx 2 years ago
Wrong. People saved or not christian and non-christians, spiritually dead or born again all can choose to do a righteous act, however any righteous act of any person does not merrit him/her any righteousness as far as God is concerned.
Focus on the issue, a lot of calvinist seem to have ADD when trying to address this issue, did God took away freedom when man died spiritually because of sin? Where in the bible does it support that spiritual deadness equals = loss of freedom to choose?
neibthe 2 years ago
I'm sorry I was unclear. You are correct. Any person can perform a righteous act, yet no such act merits salvation. However, what I'm saying is that these righteous acts (whether from Christians or non-Christians) are not prompted by our desires as humans, but are because of the effect of Christ. Secondly, I did not say that God took away freedom to choose; Adam did. It was his choice (yes, he had free will) to sin that enslaved all humans to sin. Only God's call and regeneration can redeem us.
MnDxWRAITHx 2 years ago
Also, I'd like to apologize if I sounded condemning. I'm simply trying to explain to the best of my ability what I truly believe the Scripture teaches. However, if you are a believer in he message of Christ, then you are a brother in Christ, regardless of doctrine.
MnDxWRAITHx 2 years ago
I admire your humility brother...
So we're on the same page "Any person can perform a righteous act".
So then, freedom to choose still exists within man, if that's the case, then isn't it possible that the freedom to choose what is right includes the freedom to choose to respond to the gospel.
But you might revert back to your belief that spiritually dead people cannot respond or choose God, but I will ask again, where in the bible does it say spiritual deadness = loss of freedom to choose?
neibthe 2 years ago
neibthe:
Spiritual death was the result of Adam's sin. Jesus said 'No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him to Me, and I will raise him up at the last day'.
So man cannot choose Christ.
The Father draws his elect to Christ. Faith is a gift from God.
Without regeneration no man can choose Christ.
silmalila 2 years ago
I take no offense at all you don't have to apologize...I'm doing the same thing you're trying to do...and my statement stands, that one cannot be on either extreme of this issue without being wrong, you take it too far to the left or to the right, in my humble understanding is wrong.
neibthe 2 years ago
There is truth there. I would agree on the subject of extremes. And I guess, in a sense there is a 'choice' made when a person receives the Gospel. But this choice is brought about by God's effectual call. That is, a person WILL choose to repent and believe once God's message has affected him. What I'm trying to say is that, WITHOUT God's call, man would not choose God, but sin. Does that make more sense?
MnDxWRAITHx 2 years ago
That's exactly what I'm saying...
I agree that without the revelation of God, without His prompting, or without the work of the Holy Spirit man is incapable of finding Him, But still God in His permissive will allowed man to have the freedom to reject or choose Him, when the Gospel is heard.
But I don't think that's pure Calvinism anymore, and some Calvinist might disagree on that...
neibthe 2 years ago
Those who criticize and villify all seeker sensitive churches and groups, would you all lighten up!
I understand there are those who take it to the extreme and water down the gospel, by not mentioning hell or sin.
But for the most part, I don't have any problem if they become creative in presenting the gospel, as long as they preach the gospel of Christ.
Paul did not have any problem with other preachers who even had the wrong motivation to preach, for as long as it is Christ that is preached
neibthe 2 years ago
spiritual dead not physicaly!
spitflamez052000 2 years ago
Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart
spitflamez052000 2 years ago
A relationship in this context is 'inter-personal' and love is 'an act of free will'. Is it truly a loving relationship if by some means, one way or another, good or bad, one person within it is 'manipulated' into engagement in the relationship? E.g., If I drugged a lady with some sort of love-potion that caused an influx in her hormones to the extent that she felt a strong sense of 'love' toward me, then I took advantage and scooped her up in marraige, would that be a real love relationship?
RPM11111 2 years ago
Does anyone know why the song "THE WATER IS WIDE" by THE SEEKERS has been removed from You Tube? OR Where can I find it ? Thanks !!
roseybudd 3 years ago
take the WHOLE council of God-Lanech
filoIII 3 years ago
I do.
LaneCh 3 years ago
The whole of the council of God ONLY shows the sovereignty of God, it does not show in any portion, an effective ability of man to ever successfully do the will of God alone and without the help of God. God is absolutely necessary (and more accurately), the very source of good works, faith, repentance, obedience to the will of God, etc..
reformedman 3 years ago
Amen
bakaemoboy 3 years ago
Jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. this slam on armenianism is baloney. The Spirit must 1st draw (convict) a man, then the person, out of his free will, has a choice to receive the gift or not. quite a lot of false teaching on this channel. this will probably be censored
filoIII 3 years ago
Perhaps you should read the verse in context:
All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and he that comes to me I will in no wise cast out.
(Joh 6:37)
According to Christ, all that God gives Him will come to Him. There is no mention of rejection in this sovereign act of God. Also, where does it say anywhere in the Bible that man's will is free? One verse would suffice.
LaneCh 3 years ago
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast REJECTED knowledge, I will also REJECT thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Mk 7:8-9 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye REJECT the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
filoIII 3 years ago
what, in these verses, is not explained by a reformed theology holding faithfully to Rm 11:1-8?
I.e. scripture clearly holds- and reformed theology does likewise- that not all within israel were pure israel, that the elect within the nation of God were faithful. Of course, those outside of this remnant (re: Rm 11) rejected truth and rejected the commandments, replacing them for tradition. But this isn't contrary to Ref Theo. Why these verses are cited as contrary to it is baffling.
NathanLPaylor 3 years ago
So what you are saying is God can draw us to Him with grace, but we must accept Him and let Him save us? So our choice ultimately is the factor that saves us. Cool so we control God, thus we are gods. If we can freely will to over power God why don,t we will to never go to hell, but will to live like the devil? Seriously though, my God saves your God is in your imagination.
milkman589 3 years ago
I find it a difficult concept that the relationships between GOD and HIS people would be one that is orchestrated completely by HIM. What's relational about such a set up? If GOD orchestrates the whole thing, why did HE let it slip up in the first place with the fall of Adam & Eve? Why did HE not give them irresistable Grace to continue in their covenant relationship with HIM?
The whole concept is difficult to comprehend. Can you clarify, please.
Peace.
RPM11111 2 years ago
Sorry to comment on a dead post, but I want to try to answer this. I think that the one thing you're forgetting is that without God creating humans, there would be no relationship. Additionally, God did allow humans to have a "will" (thus there was a relationship and humans actively took part). However, upon man's decision to sin, we lost the will to choose what is righteous. It is God who saves those whom he wills (and who are we to know understand his will?) out of his mercy. Hope this helped!
MnDxWRAITHx 2 years ago
So narrow and rigid. What do you think Jesus meant by the following: "'You are Israel's teacher,' said Jesus, 'and do you not understand these things? I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.'" (John 3:10-11) So why does he speak of teaching dead men? Election is a function of God's eternity and we beings-in-time will never understand it. It is beyond us in His Glory!
Enoch2 3 years ago
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all shall be made alive" (1 Corinthians 15:22
ok so you believe because of adam all have sinned, then why do you not go on to believe that because of christ ALL shall be made alive>?
contextual criticism is important
thank God his ways are higher than ours
jesseakers 3 years ago
This talks about two groups. All who are in the first Adam die; all who are in the second Adam shall be made alive. It isn't using universal "all's" in either respect.
LaneCh 3 years ago
jesus declared all food pure in mark 7:19.
fishboi87 3 years ago
I bet you censor the comments.
PowerAndPerception 3 years ago
Did you figure that out when you posted that previous comment on another video and it said, "Comment Pending Approval"? If so, good deal. This boy is teachable, folks.
LaneCh 3 years ago
I realy hate when people try to interpret the bible. I happen to believe in the holy trinity, but when people start to pick nd choose which parts of the bible they are going to follow it bugs me. If jesus taught that all life is sacred, and we must love our neighbor as ourselves, then how can the church still descriminate and condem gays???
greatgooglymoogly12 3 years ago
Unrepentant and unbelieving homosexuals condemn themselves. Everyone who doesn't believe on Christ is condemned already. (John 3:18)
LaneCh 3 years ago
How can you beleive that jesus doesnt love gay people?! Jesus taught that he had new laws and that we didnt have to follow all of the ancient old testament laws. If you are to believe in Jesus christ, then you are to believe in a message of universal love. Did jesus not forgive everyone? If you believe that god hates gays, then you sir/madam, are a hipocrite. "I pass judgement on no man, but if i do judge, my judgement is valid because i know where i come from..." (John 3:14)
greatgooglymoogly12 3 years ago
Do you hold that homosexuality is iniquity?
LaneCh 3 years ago
nope...quite the opposite. I think that no one, especially some naive organization should determine who loves who. certain laws in the bible were created for health reasons, such as the no pork ones. This fits in under that. Butt sex is rather dangerous. Butt nowadays, we do not worry which such rules, but some people such as yourself decide to discriminate others peoples culture and decisions.
greatgooglymoogly12 3 years ago
Well, there's your problem. You don't believe the Bible so how can you possibly defend it? Unrepentant homosexuals go to hell. (1Cor 6:9-10)
LaneCh 3 years ago
in all actuality i do believe the bible, i simply don't believe in the church. You seem to enjoy quoting scripture at the ends of your comments, but take this into account; the point of CHRISTianity is that they follow the New Testament. Care to find me an anti gay quote in the new testament?
greatgooglymoogly12 3 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I already provided one, but since you're not aware of that, here it is:
Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, NOR ἀρσενοκοίτης, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
(1Co 6:9-10)
LaneCh 3 years ago
The greek word ἀρσενοκοίτης means:
one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual
Take that into account with the Old Testament Scriptures which one must if they truly do believe the Bible and you are shown that the Bible clearly teaches that homosexuality is sin and unrepentant homosexuals go to hell forever.
LaneCh 3 years ago
congradulations you found a synonym for gay. does that realy have anything to do whith the bible? If you care to take the bible literaly in every sense then i sugest you take a hefty rock and throw them at promiscuous people. go to a local heavenly ham store and burn it. Take up the harp. Dont do a single thing on sunday. The bible is full of about 15% crap, that is only realevent at the time period. I do not fully beleive the church or the bible like you say i must, but i still believe in god.
greatgooglymoogly12 3 years ago
Everyone can see that your argument is bunk because I presented you with a point, and the only thing you met it with is subjective pejoratives.
"The bible is full of about 15% crap, that is only realevent at the time period."
Let me guess, it's the 15% you disagree with... Typical.
You're blocked from commenting further.
LaneCh 3 years ago
The seeker sensitive movement is a FALSE TEACHING, the name says it all, Seeker Sensitive... you're gonna compromise the gospel to fit the mold of the secular movement. I feel sad for those who buy into this false gospel, the word of God prepares us to beware of this and the FALSE teachings. WE are seeing it so clearly in this vid, so thanks for posting it!
PassionVids 4 years ago 2
ummm... did you even watch the video, or read the blurb on the side to realize that this video doesn't endorse the "seeker sensitive" movement.
JoshuaWilliamson 4 years ago
i LOVE THIS I LOVE ALL OF YOUR VIDEOS GOD BLESS
voicebreaker1 4 years ago
Oh wow. The mission of my former church was for the members to "seek and save that which was lost". This video really cleared some things up for me. Thanks for posting it.
C3henille 4 years ago
lol Calvinism, where only white people were saved for 200 years 1500-1700.
fauxbaroque 4 years ago
I don't even know where to start with that caricature other than by saying that Calvinism was not invented by John Calvin. It was nicknamed that by the Reformation, but it was really a revert back to the teachings of Scripture.
LaneCh 4 years ago
Amen, LaneCh. Well said!
Juliocyp 4 years ago
hmmm Calvinism is named after what John Calvin (b.1509) taught. Calvin taught Augustinianism which is named after what Augustine (b.354) taught. Augustine taught what the Bible taught.
reformedman 4 years ago
St. Augustine was a Catholic bishop.
CanCatholic 4 years ago
That is the most ridiculous thing I have read for a long time.
terriergal 4 years ago
i like this video. i learned alot form this video. i used to have the whole dvd but it got stolen from me. :(
gokuhawks14 4 years ago
"I don't mean to be rude but all I'm hearing is theology but no real answers."
Which are you referring to?
LaneCh 4 years ago
I'm not sure about your last question, so I don't want to answer it either way and be misleading. What I do understand about it, though, is that there is a conviction that does not lead to saving repentance and there is a conviction that does lead to saving faith. Judas had conviction and repentance after he sold Jesus, but it wasn't saving conviction and repentance.
LaneCh 4 years ago
Jesus didn't say repent?!? (According to the video anyway!) What Bible are they reading?
Luke 13:3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
Acts 17:30-31
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."
jkibbe 4 years ago
Which part of the video are you referring to? I missed that part.
LaneCh 4 years ago
:50-1:15 "You have to have faith in order to be born again? This is the exact opposite of what Jesus said in John chapter 3. As a matter of fact, in response to the question how to be born again Jesus did not say repent and believe, he said it's like the wind..." The speaker clearly downplays the role of the repentance. He makes it sound like "BAM - You're saved!"
jkibbe 4 years ago
Actually, he doesn't downplay it at all. Also, this is only a clip of a 4 hour video.
LaneCh 4 years ago
I'm posting another clip of it at the top called "Why Modern 'Evangelism' Is Not Evangelism at All". You will see that it preaches against sin and doesn't downplay it.
LaneCh 4 years ago
I guess the speaker is trying to say that they Holy Spirit just shows up and saves whom He wills, whereas I think the face value interpretation is clarifying Nicodemus's understanding of 'born again.' Nicodemus is thinking physical rebirth and Jesus is simply saying this is a spiritual rebirth. In order to be reborn spiritually we must die to our sins and self. I guess the age old question still is whether this is a 100% God-thing or if man has any will in it at all.
jkibbe 4 years ago
"I guess the age old question still is whether this is a 100% God-thing or if man has any will in it at all."
That is the question. There are numerous other passages in Scripture that talk as faith being a gift, and when you take that into consideration, it makes sense when Jesus replies to Nicodemus.
LaneCh 4 years ago
I guess the whole thing defies logic to me! Meaning God gave Adam free will to sin, but does not give us any free will to respond to His Good News. I might be dead in my sins, but hearing the Gospel is enough to breathe to life into me!
jkibbe 4 years ago
Well, the question then is this: If you and your neighbor hear the same Gospel message, why would you believe and your neighbor go away in disgust? Is it that you're smarter than him? Is it because you are more keen than him? Maybe more wise? Or is it because "God chose you in him before the foundation of the world?" (Eph. 1:4) that you would hear the Gospel and believe? See, one view gives merit to man, the other gives merit to God's sovereign grace.
LaneCh 4 years ago
Or
1. My neighbor loves his sin,
2. Thinks he's unforgivable, or
3. Pride/Self-righteousness
I can't say that I give merit to man, rather there is a response on the part of man. After all, we're told to go and *make* disciples -- not discover or find.
Also, Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Someone has gotta preach it for faith to come...
jkibbe 4 years ago
It's true the someone has to preach it because by the hearing comes faith, but the point is, what makes the difference in someone that believes and someone that doesn't? Of course, the examples you've given are reasons someone doesn't believe, but what makes the difference in the believer? Why would the believer not love his sin and the unbeliever still love it? Is it because the believer is smarter than the unbeliever? Maybe a better personality? What makes the difference?
LaneCh 4 years ago
I guess this brings up another of the 'classic' questions: can someone who is dead in his sins respond at all? I would like to think that one can be open to the Gospel message vs. not so much (a la 4 Soils parable)
"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God" - Jn 1:12
jkibbe 4 years ago
"can someone who is dead in his sins respond at all?"
Can a dead person do anything? Did Lazarus resurrect himself? Could he? No, he was dead.
LaneCh 4 years ago
It seems as if there is a series of ideas that are then strung together that I don't like (still trying to figure out the truth, though!): man chooses to sin, God will judge righteously, those going to heaven are only those who God raises from their spiritually dead condition, God negelects others therefore they must go to Hell regardless - sorry about their 'luck'. I just cling to the hope that people have some sort of chance, I guess...
jkibbe 4 years ago
"I just cling to the hope that people have some sort of chance, I guess..."
I understand and it may all stem from your view of sin. Do you believe what the Bible states about original sin? ("In Adam all die...")
LaneCh 4 years ago
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned
(Rom. 5:12).
Because of the Fall and our own sin we're all in trouble...
jkibbe 4 years ago
Well, we're all born into sin by Adam. No one is innocent. If God would have never made the promise to Abraham, he would have been perfectly just to send everyone to hell so since he chooses to have grace on anyone, it is grace indeed, and is a gift.
LaneCh 4 years ago
okay, then here's where i'm at:
1. man is sinful, deserves hell, yet God offers salvation
2. i want man to have a choice to be able to choose heaven.
3. you might say sinful man can't choose heaven so God at least chose some to go there
4. i say that means that like it or not He chose the rest (majority) to go to hell.
5. i think there is enough Holy Spirit available to draw all men onto God and He can extend His grace to all.
jkibbe 4 years ago
Your argument falls apart here:
"2. i want..."
Also, "5. i think there is enough Holy Spirit available"
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is a person or some sort of substance?
LaneCh 4 years ago
I believe God can draw all (all meaning all) men through the person of the Holy Spirit, and that when Jesus came to save the world, he meant the world. And when scripture says that God wants none (meaning none) to perish but all (meaning all) to come to repentance He means it. You're right it's not what I want, it's what he wants! Grace is a free gift extended to all! :)
jkibbe 4 years ago
I believe that he wants none to perish but all to come to repentance, but the question is all of whom? None of whom? I'm going to post a video on the top that you should watch. It is called "Not Willing that ANY Should Perish. ANY of WHOM?"
LaneCh 4 years ago
If you're going to tell me that God wants none of those He picked for His team to perish and wants all of His team to come to repentance, that seems to defy a face value interpretation and still begs the question of God damning the majority of people (the broad road, wide gate many) before they were even born.
1 Pet 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father
jkibbe 4 years ago
Did you watch the video?
LaneCh 4 years ago
My overall take:
1. Christ came to seek and save the lost [Past tense. He came, he found, and he saved us!]
2. "One of the most misunderstood teachings of the modern era: what it means to be born again. Most Christians have been taught that as a sinner repents of his sins and puts his faith in God, he becomes born again." Maybe because Jesus and John the Baptist said repent and believe...
jkibbe 4 years ago
1. So he you were "found" when you were doing whatever kind of sins you were partaking in? (fornicating, drunkeness, whatever)
2. Repent and believe is the message of the Gospel, but a person isn't born again by doing that. Regeneration precedes faith.
LaneCh 4 years ago
3. It downplays faith and repentance, and turns salvation into a mystery -- like the wind.
4. All responsibility rests with God. Man can do nothing at all. - Why have any Christian disciplines at all? I should just live a life of sin. If I'm part of the "God's Team," He'll make sure I get saved in the end. I may miss out on rewards, but I can have my cake and eat it too!
5. Born again and justification are two different things...but are they really *that* different???
jkibbe 4 years ago
3. You've seen a 10 minute clip of a 4 hour documentary. They deal with this issue elsewhere.
4. Paul addresses your "point" in Rom. 6:1.
5. Do you confuse sanctification with justification?
and 6. Have you watched the video?
LaneCh 4 years ago
People saved or not christian and non-christians, spiritually dead or born again all can choose to do a righteous act, however any righteous act of any person does not merrit him/her any righteousness as far as God is concerned.
Focus on the issue here, a lot of calvinist seem to have ADD when trying to address this issue, did God took away freedom when man died spiritually because of sin? Where in the bible does it support that spiritual deadness equals = loss of freedom to choose?
neibthe 2 years ago
Think about it like this and it may help you understand it better:
First, do you agree that all have sinned? Do you agree that there is no one righteous outside of Jesus Christ; no not one?
LaneCh 4 years ago
Very confusing.
Chuloloc 4 years ago
Which part is confusing to you? I may be able to explain it in another way so you can understand it better.
LaneCh 4 years ago
The whole debate over the doctines of election and predestined salvation against who is unable or able to be saved or if salvation is for anyone has Jesus said in the scipture "Jeruselem, Jeruselem, you who kills the prophets and those sent to you..."
Chuloloc 4 years ago
I think I understand what you're saying, but correct me if I'm wrong: Are you having trouble with the doctrine of predestination/election with how it can fit in to a person's free will?
LaneCh 4 years ago
Not really. I just want to know how things really work. Did Jesus died for the sins of ALL mankind or only for which were apperently chosen by God for salvation before the foundation of the earth and creation? Does the Holy Spirit convict everyone or just people chosen by God to be saved?
Chuloloc 4 years ago
"Did Jesus died for the sins of ALL mankind or only for which were apperently chosen by God for salvation before the foundation of the earth and creation?"
Jesus died as payment of the sins of everyone who believes on Him. The only people who do believe or who are going to believe are God's elect who were chosen before the foundation of the earth.
LaneCh 4 years ago