Where is the honor in taking something from someone's property without telling them, even if ordered to do so by your friend who thinks the property is his? Where is the honor in hurting someone instead of telling them you returned their property?
This *is* a technicality, but some people are harping on it: I was *asked* to leave only once, and that was after being ordered to leave numerous times. Check the video.
It doesn't make sense to me to get my message and return the property but then not tell me. I'm glad and thankful that my property was returned, but it did not occur to me that it would be returned without an "I'm sorry" or "I returned them, dumbass" or some kind of communication.
The forms were on my job site when taken, and they were returned to my job site, but because I do not live on the property yet, and because we did no work on the property Thursday due to rain raining. I did not check to see if they were returned. I thought that if Jay got my message to return them, he would have responded either that he would (or did) return them or that he wasn't going to; I thought that no response me meant that he wasn't going to or that he didn't get my message.
I asked Jay electronically that he took my stuff and told him I wanted it returned. After a day with no response, I went to tell him in person. I got as far as saying "Hi" before he told me he had nothing to say and that I should leave my friend's property (Bob's). Why didn't he tell me he had returned them? I would have said, "Oh! I didn't know. Thanks." and left.
But that's almost irrelevant. It's damned important if the forms *are* Bob's. I hope Bob talks to me and Ofer if that's the case, so we can work it out. But if Bob thought they were his, why didn't he tell me? Or ask me? Or talk to Ofer? Or tell me he was sending someone I had never met to take stuff that I obviously thought was mine?
I don't know what Bob Hull thinks, because he did not tell me. If he thinks these forms are his, we should discuss it together with Ofer, to try to remember (or prove) what really happened. Ofer told me that he got scrap wood from Bob Hull with Bob's permission, that he purchased his own plywood, and that he made the forms himself; and he sold them to me with his property. If that's not what happened between Bob and Ofer, then perhaps they need to work something out.
in the end, it may have been justifed. Shooting him might have been justified too. Losing your cool and attacking someone for attempting to retrieve property that was taken might have been justified too. Shooting a little girl picking flowers is justified as well. That doesn't mean you have to like any of it. Sad that for this person it had to come down to violence.
The question in this is why was Mike's things taken in the first place. If someone comes to my property to take something I'm sure as hell going to theirs and attempting to take it back. If someone is hostile towards me in my attempt I'm going to wonder if they're lying about putting it back. I'd still want an explanation, wouldn't anyone? If the property manager told me to leave I would, but the power to remove lies ultimately with the owner, not the property manager.
@antonlee43 Bob Hull understood that he owned the concrete forms, not Ofer. If Ofer sold the forms to Mike when Bob owns them, then Mike has a problem with Ofer. Jay retrieved the forms on Bob's say-so. When it came to light that there was ANY controversy, the forms were IMMEDIATELY returned until the dispute over ownership could be resolved. Mike didn't even bother to check and see if the forms were returned before hunting Jay down.
I'm generally patient when people don't get principles of liberty. I generally think there is hope for everyone to learn something. This is not the first time that Mike has come onto someone else's property and been told to leave and refused to do so. There are some folks who will use lethal force to remove unwanted people from their property. Mike got all up in arms claiming he was "aggressed upon" when Babiarz did not leave his property, but then once in Utah, and now here, Mike is aggressing
@ivyleague28477 He was asked to leave several times, and refused to do so. Even after he was physically asked to leave, he stood there and INSTIGATED, CHALLENGED, purposefully inciting more aggression. "I'm waiting to see what you're going to do to me." Why isn't Mike turning around and leaving right then and there? He'd already been asked to leave multiple times, forcing the hand of an otherwise peaceful person to resort to defense of his property. "I'm going to ask Lloyd if I can be here."
@ivyleague28477 Why, Mike? So you can purposefully antagonize and incite more violence? This is the second time, Mike, when you and you alone were purposefully choosing to violate property rights and incite violence. But then you made a big huge deal made about the "HORROR" of your campfire being put out, when it was the State forcing the actions of those people. There are things I still get wrong. When it's pointed out to me, I don't stomp my feet, have a temper tantrum, and un-friend folks.
@ivyleague28477 Generally speaking, I do attempt to learn more about the principles of liberty. This being the second time and generally speaking the same thing happening, will you step back and take a look at what you've done twice now from the perspective of someone not in your shoes. Jay's actions were justified. You were on his job site and were asked to leave. An honorable person would have left, NOT attempted to "get around" Jay's request on some "technicality" by asking Lloyd/Bob to stay
@antonlee43 Hi Anton. Yes. And again - Mike chose defiance based on a technicality (that there was more than one person who may have been authorized to give him permission), rather than to respect and honor the wishes of one of the property owners. If someone choses to be nitpicky in order to weasel their way out of doing the admirable, honorable thing, is that someone you would want to hang out with?
Where is the honor in taking something from someone's property without telling them, even if ordered to do so by your friend who thinks the property is his? Where is the honor in hurting someone instead of telling them you returned their property?
mcmikemn 1 year ago
This *is* a technicality, but some people are harping on it: I was *asked* to leave only once, and that was after being ordered to leave numerous times. Check the video.
mcmikemn 1 year ago
It doesn't make sense to me to get my message and return the property but then not tell me. I'm glad and thankful that my property was returned, but it did not occur to me that it would be returned without an "I'm sorry" or "I returned them, dumbass" or some kind of communication.
mcmikemn 1 year ago
The forms were on my job site when taken, and they were returned to my job site, but because I do not live on the property yet, and because we did no work on the property Thursday due to rain raining. I did not check to see if they were returned. I thought that if Jay got my message to return them, he would have responded either that he would (or did) return them or that he wasn't going to; I thought that no response me meant that he wasn't going to or that he didn't get my message.
mcmikemn 1 year ago
I asked Jay electronically that he took my stuff and told him I wanted it returned. After a day with no response, I went to tell him in person. I got as far as saying "Hi" before he told me he had nothing to say and that I should leave my friend's property (Bob's). Why didn't he tell me he had returned them? I would have said, "Oh! I didn't know. Thanks." and left.
mcmikemn 1 year ago
But that's almost irrelevant. It's damned important if the forms *are* Bob's. I hope Bob talks to me and Ofer if that's the case, so we can work it out. But if Bob thought they were his, why didn't he tell me? Or ask me? Or talk to Ofer? Or tell me he was sending someone I had never met to take stuff that I obviously thought was mine?
mcmikemn 1 year ago
I don't know what Bob Hull thinks, because he did not tell me. If he thinks these forms are his, we should discuss it together with Ofer, to try to remember (or prove) what really happened. Ofer told me that he got scrap wood from Bob Hull with Bob's permission, that he purchased his own plywood, and that he made the forms himself; and he sold them to me with his property. If that's not what happened between Bob and Ofer, then perhaps they need to work something out.
mcmikemn 1 year ago
in the end, it may have been justifed. Shooting him might have been justified too. Losing your cool and attacking someone for attempting to retrieve property that was taken might have been justified too. Shooting a little girl picking flowers is justified as well. That doesn't mean you have to like any of it. Sad that for this person it had to come down to violence.
antonlee43 1 year ago
The question in this is why was Mike's things taken in the first place. If someone comes to my property to take something I'm sure as hell going to theirs and attempting to take it back. If someone is hostile towards me in my attempt I'm going to wonder if they're lying about putting it back. I'd still want an explanation, wouldn't anyone? If the property manager told me to leave I would, but the power to remove lies ultimately with the owner, not the property manager.
antonlee43 1 year ago
@antonlee43 Bob Hull understood that he owned the concrete forms, not Ofer. If Ofer sold the forms to Mike when Bob owns them, then Mike has a problem with Ofer. Jay retrieved the forms on Bob's say-so. When it came to light that there was ANY controversy, the forms were IMMEDIATELY returned until the dispute over ownership could be resolved. Mike didn't even bother to check and see if the forms were returned before hunting Jay down.
ivyleague28477 1 year ago
I'm generally patient when people don't get principles of liberty. I generally think there is hope for everyone to learn something. This is not the first time that Mike has come onto someone else's property and been told to leave and refused to do so. There are some folks who will use lethal force to remove unwanted people from their property. Mike got all up in arms claiming he was "aggressed upon" when Babiarz did not leave his property, but then once in Utah, and now here, Mike is aggressing
ivyleague28477 1 year ago
@ivyleague28477 He was asked to leave several times, and refused to do so. Even after he was physically asked to leave, he stood there and INSTIGATED, CHALLENGED, purposefully inciting more aggression. "I'm waiting to see what you're going to do to me." Why isn't Mike turning around and leaving right then and there? He'd already been asked to leave multiple times, forcing the hand of an otherwise peaceful person to resort to defense of his property. "I'm going to ask Lloyd if I can be here."
ivyleague28477 1 year ago
@ivyleague28477 Why, Mike? So you can purposefully antagonize and incite more violence? This is the second time, Mike, when you and you alone were purposefully choosing to violate property rights and incite violence. But then you made a big huge deal made about the "HORROR" of your campfire being put out, when it was the State forcing the actions of those people. There are things I still get wrong. When it's pointed out to me, I don't stomp my feet, have a temper tantrum, and un-friend folks.
ivyleague28477 1 year ago
@ivyleague28477 Generally speaking, I do attempt to learn more about the principles of liberty. This being the second time and generally speaking the same thing happening, will you step back and take a look at what you've done twice now from the perspective of someone not in your shoes. Jay's actions were justified. You were on his job site and were asked to leave. An honorable person would have left, NOT attempted to "get around" Jay's request on some "technicality" by asking Lloyd/Bob to stay
ivyleague28477 1 year ago
@ivyleague28477 Curious as to the "Utah" incident. Would I be correct in assuming this was the property of Lou Eastman and his (ex?) wife?
antonlee43 1 year ago
@antonlee43 Hi Anton. Yes. And again - Mike chose defiance based on a technicality (that there was more than one person who may have been authorized to give him permission), rather than to respect and honor the wishes of one of the property owners. If someone choses to be nitpicky in order to weasel their way out of doing the admirable, honorable thing, is that someone you would want to hang out with?
ivyleague28477 1 year ago
Well, I don't like when people hurt me, so I'll stay away from that guy.
TackleTheWorld 1 year ago