The way the occupiers have distanced themselves from political left and the way that in turn the media distanced themselves from the occupiers is what made me believe they are not pawns of the liberals.
I am glad the popular left finally realized media corporations are corporations just the same and I hope they will stop blaming it all on just Fox News and see bigger picture.
The Oakland PD has caused many US citizens to question law enforcement's motives and methods.
@jmctigret I'm neither a strict constitutionalist nor an opponent of any and all government programs. I'm also not of the persuasion that any and all government debt is bad debt or that there is never a legitimate reason for the government to engage in deficit spending. But this is a far cry from being happy about the kind of debt and amount of debt we have. FTR - I do not despise the Tea Party or all of its positions. I share many concerns and frustrations, as do many with #OWS.
I don't know, I haven't really read too many articles about OWS, so if I were prudent, I'd keep mouth shut, but from what I have seen, it sounds like a bunch of Left-wing partisans coupled with those who generally lean leftwards, (not to mention that there ARE Marxists elements participating) protesting out of envy (well, I assume those would be the Marxists). I typically find myself more prone to supporting the TEA Party movement despite not having been involved since I moved south.
@ChristianLayman I think it safe to admit that there are Marxist amongst the thousands of protesters. This doesn't both me much, not any more than it does that people associated with kinism, culturism, racialism and even racial supremacy may be found among a number of those involved with the Tea Party. They are only significant in so far as they are influencing the movement. The same may be said of any movement. It is, though, a reason to be observant, even vigilant.
@paleocrat Haven't seen anything along the lines of racism in the TEA Party, or at the very least, there have been no signs advocating prejudices along ethnic lines. I've only really been at the Norwich, CT TEA Party gatherings, a Townhall meeting over Obamacare back in 2009, and the Restoring Honor 8/28 2010 rally. We did have a couple of kids try to infiltrate one of the Norwich gatherings, but they were called out and booted. Up in CT we're pretty strict against inflammatory things.
@paleocrat With that said, I can at the very least vouch for the Norwich, CT TEA Party. The only thing that I might be pause to consider is that nationally, a lot of Protestant Fundamentalists are generally supportive of the TEA Party (not that they are the bulk mind you), and in my dealings with them online, they're among the most judgmental, self-pretentious snobs whose arrogance is on par with the Pharisee in the Temple with the Tax Collector, with how they conduct themselves.
The Tea Party has a Evangelical Christian following.
I would like to see progressive Christians that believe in what Christ taught us about the rich, the poor and money become more involved in the Occupy Movement.
The Pope has issued a document against Capitalist greed which is a step in the correct direction.
@citizenkong Caritas In Veritate deals with greed weather in a capitalist or socialist system. The problem you have right now is a lack of capitalism. A truly capitalist system would let companies fail instead of giving them hand outs. You have elect representatives who will say no to those who ask for hand outs be they companies or individuals.
@citizenkong No. Were you referring to Caritas In Veritate in your first statement? It is the only document which I figured you could be referring to. It was released about two to three years ago.
Are you referring to the recent document released by the Vatican counsel on justice & peace because the Pope had nothing to do with that document.
@citizenkong Yea would be the document from Vatican counsel on justice & peace which just some suggest talking points for an upcoming meeting of world governments. It has no authority of teaching of the Catholic faith. The Pope has nothing to do with it.
The media jumps on things like this that seem to be new & agree with or can be twisted with what they believe.
@citizenkong "As for letting the market run free. I see no example in human history where that was good for the working class and the poor."
Generally history is record of significant & sudden events. The improvement for the working from capitalism tend to be slow & steady instead of significant & sudden.
@steam0001 Well I would say it is thanks to private property and not capitalism itself. Even countries where the government has a sizeable influence in the market such as Germany and Sweden, the standard of living is far superior than most regions of the US. It does not necessarily follow that because people live in a capitalist country, life is somewhat better. Many times it is quite the contrary.
@AdversusHaere What capitalism? The states has not had true capitalism for quite sometime. The government using bank regulations to force banks to help the poor? That socialism! Hey I live in Canada which is basically a socialist state but even we know you don't screw around with bank regulations. That is why we didn't have a banking melt down in Canada. Regs that forced the banks that held the crap mortgage from the states to devalue them at regular intervals before the states had a melt down.
@AdversusHaereses Look true capitalism allows failure. It is the means of getting rid of that which doesn't work. If the rich guy/gal on wall street wants to take stupid risks then let him/her become become homeless to serve as an example to others. Don't give them a bail out.
@steam0001 I agree with you 100%. That still does not go on to say much about the idea that free market capitalism also allows failure of small business through allowing the monopolies of big business. The robber barons had their monopolies in their own industries in the 19th century because there was no government regulations in sectors which are naturally prone to be monopolised if freely given to the market gurus. The political power of these men was far greater than any communist bureaucrat.
@steam0001 I deny the causal connection here. In fact, I deal with this, just briefly, in the video. What was said of museums, hospitals and art galleries may, in principle and in fact, be said of those things you reference here. It suffers from not being well-defined, at least as an argument. There are a myriad of other variables at play here. I don't think "X, therefore Y" works here.
@paleocrat You believe in distributism. Good. I ask yourself what other system other that capitalism would distributism work?
If the answer is none then I suggest you make sure you understand what true capitalism is & then defend it. Other wise you will not have solid ground for distributism to be built upon.
I still tend to see OWS as a somewhat leftist movement and the Tea Party as right. The Tea Party is partisan and places blame solely on government. OWS's view is not partisan and is not as simplistic. They see that the blame goes all around. One indicator of that is that the movement is global. There is a worldwide sense that we can't keep doing things the way we have been.
I really do hope the Occupy Movement will put pressure on both the left and the right to change things.
What is your comment on the sad and unfortunate rapes and death (not sure if it's more than one), at Occupy movements.
phil8888 3 months ago
The way the occupiers have distanced themselves from political left and the way that in turn the media distanced themselves from the occupiers is what made me believe they are not pawns of the liberals.
I am glad the popular left finally realized media corporations are corporations just the same and I hope they will stop blaming it all on just Fox News and see bigger picture.
The Oakland PD has caused many US citizens to question law enforcement's motives and methods.
MarcinP2 4 months ago
Simple tea party ideals for both parties.
(1) Eliminate the National Debt
(2) Eliminate Deficit Spending (balance budget)
(3) Protect Free Markets (no Crony capitalism )
(4) Reduce the Overall Size of Government
jmctigret 4 months ago
@jmctigret I'm neither a strict constitutionalist nor an opponent of any and all government programs. I'm also not of the persuasion that any and all government debt is bad debt or that there is never a legitimate reason for the government to engage in deficit spending. But this is a far cry from being happy about the kind of debt and amount of debt we have. FTR - I do not despise the Tea Party or all of its positions. I share many concerns and frustrations, as do many with #OWS.
paleocrat 4 months ago
@paleocrat What do you think about the document from Vatican counsel on justice & peace being used by the media to declare the Vatican OWS?
steam0001 4 months ago
Unarmed? They admitted they through rocks & bottles at the cops. You do that your going to get it in spades!
Thanks to the occupy movement we have Mohawk Warriors camping out in Toronto parks. Let me tell you these guys are not peaceful.
steam0001 4 months ago
What crime are you protesting?
Armando7654 4 months ago
I don't know, I haven't really read too many articles about OWS, so if I were prudent, I'd keep mouth shut, but from what I have seen, it sounds like a bunch of Left-wing partisans coupled with those who generally lean leftwards, (not to mention that there ARE Marxists elements participating) protesting out of envy (well, I assume those would be the Marxists). I typically find myself more prone to supporting the TEA Party movement despite not having been involved since I moved south.
ChristianLayman 4 months ago
@ChristianLayman I think it safe to admit that there are Marxist amongst the thousands of protesters. This doesn't both me much, not any more than it does that people associated with kinism, culturism, racialism and even racial supremacy may be found among a number of those involved with the Tea Party. They are only significant in so far as they are influencing the movement. The same may be said of any movement. It is, though, a reason to be observant, even vigilant.
paleocrat 4 months ago
@paleocrat Haven't seen anything along the lines of racism in the TEA Party, or at the very least, there have been no signs advocating prejudices along ethnic lines. I've only really been at the Norwich, CT TEA Party gatherings, a Townhall meeting over Obamacare back in 2009, and the Restoring Honor 8/28 2010 rally. We did have a couple of kids try to infiltrate one of the Norwich gatherings, but they were called out and booted. Up in CT we're pretty strict against inflammatory things.
ChristianLayman 4 months ago
@paleocrat With that said, I can at the very least vouch for the Norwich, CT TEA Party. The only thing that I might be pause to consider is that nationally, a lot of Protestant Fundamentalists are generally supportive of the TEA Party (not that they are the bulk mind you), and in my dealings with them online, they're among the most judgmental, self-pretentious snobs whose arrogance is on par with the Pharisee in the Temple with the Tax Collector, with how they conduct themselves.
ChristianLayman 4 months ago
The Tea Party has a Evangelical Christian following.
I would like to see progressive Christians that believe in what Christ taught us about the rich, the poor and money become more involved in the Occupy Movement.
The Pope has issued a document against Capitalist greed which is a step in the correct direction.
citizenkong 4 months ago
@citizenkong Caritas In Veritate deals with greed weather in a capitalist or socialist system. The problem you have right now is a lack of capitalism. A truly capitalist system would let companies fail instead of giving them hand outs. You have elect representatives who will say no to those who ask for hand outs be they companies or individuals.
steam0001 4 months ago
@steam0001
So you are saying the Pope is wrong.
citizenkong 4 months ago
@citizenkong No. Were you referring to Caritas In Veritate in your first statement? It is the only document which I figured you could be referring to. It was released about two to three years ago.
Are you referring to the recent document released by the Vatican counsel on justice & peace because the Pope had nothing to do with that document.
steam0001 4 months ago
@steam0001
No. This is very recent. I saw it on a blog on the Washington Post website.
Google "Pope Benedict goes to #OWS"
Already American capitalists are disputing the document.
I'm not Catholic, so I really don't know how it all works.
The Pope opposes the death penalty, right? Sounds like a bleeding heart to me. Maybe he is also against greedy capitalists.
As for letting the market run free. I see no example in human history where that was good for the working class and the poor.
citizenkong 4 months ago
@citizenkong Yea would be the document from Vatican counsel on justice & peace which just some suggest talking points for an upcoming meeting of world governments. It has no authority of teaching of the Catholic faith. The Pope has nothing to do with it.
The media jumps on things like this that seem to be new & agree with or can be twisted with what they believe.
/watch?v=bx5Y6H2KCAY
steam0001 4 months ago
@steam0001
Obviously he has a right wing agenda.
I suppose it will all come out in the wash.
At least the Jesuits are on board.
citizenkong 4 months ago
@steam0001
According to him it all means nothing. We shall see.
citizenkong 4 months ago
@citizenkong "As for letting the market run free. I see no example in human history where that was good for the working class and the poor."
Generally history is record of significant & sudden events. The improvement for the working from capitalism tend to be slow & steady instead of significant & sudden.
Do you have to wash your cloths by hand?
Do you have to light a candle when it gets dark?
Do you have to cook over an open fire?
No. All thanks to capitalism.
steam0001 4 months ago
@steam0001
When we had unfettered capitalism at it's peak, historians called that the "Gilded Age".
Poorhouses and child labor. All thanks to capitalism.
citizenkong 4 months ago
@steam0001
Does the farmer not tend his field. Does the horsemen not use his reins?
citizenkong 4 months ago
@steam0001 Well I would say it is thanks to private property and not capitalism itself. Even countries where the government has a sizeable influence in the market such as Germany and Sweden, the standard of living is far superior than most regions of the US. It does not necessarily follow that because people live in a capitalist country, life is somewhat better. Many times it is quite the contrary.
AdversusHaereses 4 months ago
Comment removed
steam0001 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@AdversusHaere What capitalism? The states has not had true capitalism for quite sometime. The government using bank regulations to force banks to help the poor? That socialism! Hey I live in Canada which is basically a socialist state but even we know you don't screw around with bank regulations. That is why we didn't have a banking melt down in Canada. Regs that forced the banks that held the crap mortgage from the states to devalue them at regular intervals before the states had a melt down.
steam0001 4 months ago
@AdversusHaereses Look true capitalism allows failure. It is the means of getting rid of that which doesn't work. If the rich guy/gal on wall street wants to take stupid risks then let him/her become become homeless to serve as an example to others. Don't give them a bail out.
steam0001 4 months ago
@steam0001 I agree with you 100%. That still does not go on to say much about the idea that free market capitalism also allows failure of small business through allowing the monopolies of big business. The robber barons had their monopolies in their own industries in the 19th century because there was no government regulations in sectors which are naturally prone to be monopolised if freely given to the market gurus. The political power of these men was far greater than any communist bureaucrat.
AdversusHaereses 4 months ago
@steam0001 I deny the causal connection here. In fact, I deal with this, just briefly, in the video. What was said of museums, hospitals and art galleries may, in principle and in fact, be said of those things you reference here. It suffers from not being well-defined, at least as an argument. There are a myriad of other variables at play here. I don't think "X, therefore Y" works here.
paleocrat 4 months ago
Comment removed
steam0001 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@paleocrat You believe in distributism. Good. I ask yourself what other system other that capitalism would distributism work?
If the answer is none then I suggest you make sure you understand what true capitalism is & then defend it. Other wise you will not have solid ground for distributism to be built upon.
steam0001 4 months ago
I still tend to see OWS as a somewhat leftist movement and the Tea Party as right. The Tea Party is partisan and places blame solely on government. OWS's view is not partisan and is not as simplistic. They see that the blame goes all around. One indicator of that is that the movement is global. There is a worldwide sense that we can't keep doing things the way we have been.
I really do hope the Occupy Movement will put pressure on both the left and the right to change things.
citizenkong 4 months ago 2
welcome back
XSC3 4 months ago 2