Zen Buddhism: The Nature of the Self

[Suwai0303]

I'm not a Buddhist nor a follower of any religion, but I can't help appreciating the beauty and clarity of Zen. Peace to all.

[KeniLeeBurgess]

It is not an easy or pleasant thing to confront yourself. Outside the bells ring, the incense perfume the air, the long robes look so majestic, but inside the gates of HELL fly open and there is no romantic sanctuary. If you persist you can spit out the iron ball lodged in your throat, if you run away, there is no where to go. May your life go well. Thank you Daido Roshi for being there. May your vows be truly realized.

[bigmoppa27]

the atom is mostly empty, everthing around us is mostly empty, yet it contains substance......information-ene­rgy..... I want to find peace......Not forgetting your troubles but embracing what you are..

[vVRavenVv]

lmao ... i love that ending ... that was pretty random

[larryfrayne52]

why is that guy driving around killing thousands of insects?

To make the grass look tidy ?

Wheres the buddhist compassion ?

Or dont insects count in the universal mind ?

talk talk talk is so so cheap.

[FreeKwinsie]

@larryfrayne52 Don't worry about him, self control is the only control.

[Sh3rby]

wow, what beautiful words

[kookyuke]

MMMMM??? TRUTH....THERE IS NO TRUTH THAT IS THE TRUTH! Don't like this answer then continue on your merry way ...if it gives you comfort! I once asked the universe not for the truth (that is a big ask!) just the purpose of life? Well actually I asked my subconscious and the answer was...."There is no me only us" also "We are here to serve because by doing so we help ourselves!".....I could take it on the road and claim to know something but it was just a dream???

[awake2012nibiru]

the nature of the universe is to be in constant change

we are therefore part of this process.

[boothacus]

I will truly miss Daido Roshi. What a wonderfully down to earth person with a lot to offer everyone whether they be Buddhist or not. I took the Intro to Zen at the ZMM and was fortunate to meet him. One of the most wonderful things he said is that you can take what you want & leave the rest and could be whatever religion you are & still practice meditation & precepts of Buddhism. I'm usually very distrusting of anyone trying to 'sell' me something & I didn't get that feeling at all there.

[MAJORJANNA]

is that ken wilber at :58?

[douglasmacjames]

@MAJORJANNA yes, people like him have clones everywhere !

[lisa7quantum]

This is absolute truth to me! There is no claim to make against the truth of reality.

[irezumi2012]

RIP Zen Master Daido

[BEGOODTOYOURDOG1]

Uh - what?

[Anthonyxander]

haha i like the tractor at the end

[neocoders]

@Anthonyxander Yeah, after enlightenment, drive the tractor ;)

[Cwindify]

@Anthonyxander

The ending was done to break your normal pattern of thinking, of expecting.

[Jalexorid]

I quite like it how after his speech ends there's a quick clip of him (or someone) driving a tractor around the grass.

At the same time it's both a non-sequitur, and an insight into how ordinary, simple and natural Zen really is. But Zen isn't really Zen, so what am I saying? Bah, forget you even read this.

[xapxnecro]

for all practical purposes i am my body, i know this because it is the point from which everything appears. why dont isee from another pair of eyes? dont buy into mysticism

[Thomo1305]

Seeing 'you' as your body is looking at the world in a dualistic way. Of course, you are your body but it is not separate. Seeing with your eyes and through your senses is linked with delusion because of how our mind responds to what our body connects with. There is no mysticism. 'It' is ordinary. Our mind covers and conceals the Truth because we are mostly ignorant of it. The Nature of Self is also dualistic as there is no nature or self but words limit us in this way.

[xapxnecro]

right, but if we label the entire universe as "self", the word loses it's meaning. That's why I said "for all practical purposes" I am my body. We can also use different instruments to detect things around us like radar and sonar, and they usually confirm something similar to what is being seen with the eyes.

[xapxnecro]

but many buddhists say "i am the universe". I used to be into buddhism and read all watts and suzuki's books in college, but later i came to the realization that there is no such thing as nirvana, and there is nothing special about sitting in zazen, it's all a big myth like christianity. Instead of dogma it's more about playing with words.

[Thomo1305]

I'm sorry you feel that way my friend. A Buddhist who says 'I am the universe' is seeing things dualistically also and not a person to listen to. Nirvana is too much a concept in our minds but in reality is ordinary. Thru quiet practise and reducing dualistic thoughts you will feel the stillness and begin to see IT. Words, teachings, people turn u away from it. Saying it is a myth or not, is dualistic too! Then u miss IT. If all is one how can myth & dogma exist outside of it?

[Thomo1305]

Although in a sense - you can't be turned away from it lol!

[xapxnecro]

look, i just think a lot of buddhists just state the obvious and present it as a profound sort of truth that only very few actually know, when in fact that is not the case.

[xapxnecro]

we all experience reality and we all have a pretty firm grasp on it, excluding psychotic individuals. so basically you don't need any form of practice to see it, most people are pretty much in tune with reality even if they don't know it themselves. my point is that buddhism, or any sort of ism for that matter, is not needed to understand "IT".

[Nihm420]

"but many buddhists say "i am the universe". I used to be into buddhism and read all watts and suzuki's books in college, but later i came to the realization that there is no such thing as nirvana,"

And you came to this conclusion by reading books did you...?

[xapxnecro]

nope, I came to it by my own thinking and life experience.

[Nihm420]

Sooo.... going by books, and combining that with your great age and life experience, you have managed to - just by reading and living 25 years - invalidate Nirvana...?

Heh... since you are dreaming, why don't you wish for a pony?:)

[xapxnecro]

Well it's not my responsibility to invalidate nirvana, the onus is on the person who thinks there is nirvana to validate it.

[Nihm420]

You said that you did.

[xapxnecro]

I said I came to the conclusion that there is no nirvana, because it hasn't been validated. It's more of a burden of proof thing.

[THEGR8BIGM0UTH]

@xapxnecro You are a Christian my friend,of course you reject the concept of Nirvana.May you find peace

[xapxnecro]

i'm not a christian

[xapxnecro]

@THEGR8BIGM0UTH no i'm not a christian lol but what reason do i have to believe in nirvana?

[THEGR8BIGM0UTH]

@xapxnecro Nirvana is the extinction of the self, do you purpose a self exists? Let me tell you something, man created Gods to explain the outside world and he created the self to explain his inside world.Both are phantoms. There is no Nirvana other than this.Nirvana is existence itself.This is it.

[xapxnecro]

nirvana has never been validated so why would i need to invalidate it?

[xapxnecro]

@Nihm420 i see no contradiction.

[Nihm420]

@xapxnecro

You see no contradiction?

On one hand you say you have single-handedly invalidated nirvana... and then in the next breath you say that you have no "need" to invalidate nirvana because it has never been validated to you... thereby rendering what you first said meaningless?

You don't see that?

[xapxnecro]

@Nihm420 i'm just pointing out that i have no reason to believe there is such a state as nirvana

[Nihm420]

@xapxnecro

Then by all means, DON'T believe in it... The Buddha didn't want you just believe in it anyway.

[FantasticArts95]

You don't have to believe in Nirvana to experience a nice meditation. If you look at it from a physical basis, you will notice that your brain will be able to allow higher concentration and expand its brain surface top layer, which is good when producing defensive enzymes. Scientifically proven, it is very healthy for your brain.

Even if you don't believe in the spiritual theory of Nirvana, mediatation will surely not be unhealthy to practice.

[robowenyt]

that is so zen right there

[brynn]

@Nihm420 Is Nirvana only achieved after death? Or is a goal to work towards in this life? And isn't it true you need possibly decades of discipline to even get close to achieving such?

[Nihm420]

@brynn

My advice to you... stop thinking about it.

I'm not being glib.

[brynn]

@Nihm420 Thanks Tom Cruise. :D

[killabreakz]

@xapxnecro Maybe it did not work for you but it has worked for billions of people around the world,

to say it is a 'big myth' is quite a stupid thing to say, why do you have the need to make some many posts? seems like you have an agenda.

[THEGR8BIGM0UTH]

Your skepticism is healthy.I commend you.But extend that skepticism to your most cherished beliefs.Surely a skeptic like yourself rejects such metaphysical garbage like the illusionary concept of the self.Your skepticism is a pale reflection of ours,Buddhism is not a system of belief,rather a system of systematic doubt.Belive what you will,none of its true.

[killabreakz]

@THEGR8BIGM0UTH are you a bible basher?

[boothacus]

@xapxnecro There is nothing mystic about Zen Buddhism. In fact, it is a distinct lack of mysticism. It's about becoming one with everything and thereby developing compassion. It's not a cult nor is it mystic in nature. It is not easily understood at first, but understanding comes with time and sitting zazen. Even if you follow for purely physical reasons, zen meditation has many benefits. You can even combine it with Christianity if you wish. The point is to quiet yourself and open your mind.

[atfatw]

the death of this man is a loss. he was a great teacher.

[DeathlessMoonNectar]

In Memoriam

John Daido Loori, Roshi

1931 - 2009

[neocoders]

He's very sick at the moment, his cancer seems to be getting the better of him.

[Nihm420]

He has beaten the odds so far.

Don't write him off just yet... Daido is tougher than a coffin nail.

[neocoders]

You bet. May the years of life be lengthened for Mugei Daido Daiosho.

[Ashiman12]

Buddhism doesn't deny that we or anything exists. Cleary we and everything DO exist. Buddhist only argues that the way things are and the way we perceive them to be are rarely the same, that things are interconnected and interdependent, empty of seperate, indepedent identity (since things only have identity in relation to other things). It's not so much about letting go of the world as letting go of our per-conceptions, so we can see reality clearly.

[Ashiman12]

pre-conceptions, rather.

[bunnybooties]

So the self just is. All is illusion. The comings and goings of consciousness. Nothing truly exists including mind and body and the only thing that is real can't be touched,harmed. It's our 1st nature, pure conscious awareness which we get in touch with when we go within and let go of the world of illusions: desires,ego,materialism and become one with all.

[Claymaeshon]

Tractor LOL

[neocoders]

I love that bit at the end with Daido driving the tractor. Before Zen drive the tractor, after Zen, drive the tractor.

[QueerLiberation]

Ha!

[jp1989at]

I wish to see more pessimistic views of the self.

[Ashiman12]

Why? Because it'll make you seem "edgy" or "deep"? Remember, reality isn't pessimistic or optimistic, but rather, REAListic, containing BOTH good and bad. And in this reality of good and bad, having hope can help us REALize the good.

[Thomo1305]

Speaking in light of oneness, there is no good or bad. Such ideas are concepts created by men. 'It' contains nothing as there is nothing that exists outside of it or inside of it - there is only it. What we see are manifestations of it but we view them as separate. Our minds think dualistically, good from bad, ugly/beauty, useful, useless. Stopping thinking in this way will help you to see it. There is no path, there are no teachings, no attainment, only it ;o)

[xapxnecro]

good and bad are labels we attach to actions in reality, they have no material existence of course because they are concepts, but nevertheless, they exist as concepts.

[Thomo1305]

Yep & this is vital. They exist only because of our thinking and not from anything of their. 'Our' reality is thru our mind, our cultural norms. I want that car (because?), I fancy her (why?), this is useless (how?). Such ideas create attachment, grasping, temporary happiness + unhappiness - all thru our mind. So u drive a big car + ppl think u'r big. Does this make u so? This our reality but it is not THE reality. The Truth has no concept, no big/small/rich/poor.

[xapxnecro]

but no one is saying that good and bad are actual material things. they exist as concepts and yes that is what most people understand them as, no one is thinking of them as inherent properties, thats what i was trying to say. so saying "there is no good or bad" doesnt really say anything, we already know they are ideas we attach to actions.