I've been in one of these planes... There is only 2 left (Working) in the world The queen of England owns one and the Air plane museum 15 minutes away from my house they let you go in the one that is not functional but they are still amazing aircrafts to see in flight! Amazing sight to see! :]
". It seems you are adept at making crass adolescent theories about Britain but typically ignore your countries own behaviour in WW2."
In a sense I admire you Mr.LordGod. You can embed several biases even in a short sentence. Your posts are also so genuinely and purely hostile that they are akin with Pravda's hate campaign against Poland and Finland in 1939. You would have become a good worker in a propaganda bureau. What a talent Hitler and Stalin lost in you!
What on earth do you expect. You post disgraceful comments that undermine an entire generation of a Nation that fought fascism. And you expect that Finlands WW2 record should not be scrutinized?
And just FYI, the propaganda of the Communist party is just as "reliable" as the "Wochenschau". The Nazi and the Soviet parties are very selective in their versions if the "truth".
The Finns were called "white bandits" because the whites had defeated the reds during our civil war 1917-1918, but Stalin & c hated most the traditional (Social Democrat) labour movement deeming them "Menshevik". These PARLAMENTARIST leftists were the first in Stalin's killing list.
"...Your bare face denial is pathological. The Finnish army was intrinsic in the siege of Leningrad as well as Stalingrad."
Source? The propaganda bureau of Stalin eh? LOL
Aand even Stalin knew that the Finns did not do that. After the war the highest Finnish leadership met him and he toasted to the Finnish army and asked how Marshall Mannerheim was doing.
That Finland never did what you are now saying Mr.LordGod, is the reason why it existed still after ww2.
I expect that Stalin did what you claim, he was pretty adept at dispatching innocent Russian women and children himself. Apparently he had a twisted sense of humour as well. Finlands involvement at Leningrad is well documented, so is the plight of the innocent civilians. Personally I dont find it amusing at all.
Come now! You are fully aware of the Finnish involvement at the siege of Leningrad. What a cruel death those Women and children suffered due to Finnish troops with their Nazi allies blockading supplies. And you have the audacity to bad mouth British aircrew. Shame on you for the crass, spiteful, manipulative way you distort history. Shame on you for undermining the memory of heroes that fought Nazis.
"ou are fully aware of the Finnish involvement at the siege of Leningrad."
Frankly I am not. Could you give me any source? It would be the first time that you really refer to something.
You are quite an idiot. If the leadership of Finland had been really so completely moronic that they would have assisted the siege of Leningrad, Stalin, Molotov & c would never have forgiven it and our country would have been wiped out of the map. Hovever, there it is after all, against all odds.
Finland started to distance itself from Nazi Germany after the battle of Stalingrad
when the writing was on the wall for the Third Reich. It seems you are adept at making crass adolescent theories about Britain but typically ignore your countries own behaviour in WW2.
Call it what you like, Finland by aiding Nazi Germany caused many an Innocent Russians death. Check out the concentration camps the Finns built for Russians and how many Russians died of hunger and exposure.
The Finns deliberately starved to death and allowed Russians die of exposure. That is a real war crime. The civilians (women and particularly children) that starved to death in Leningrad were also victims of Finlands unofficial alliance with Nazi Germany.
And the "German militarism". Before the 150 years preceding year 1914:
(1) Britain had waged 10 wars;
(2) Russia had waged 7 wars;
(3) France had waged 5 wars;
(4) Austria had waged 3 wars;
(5) Prussia/Germany 3 wars.
So Britain is the true belligerent in the history of mankind. The myth of "German militarism" serves the hate propaganda from 1914 when Britain had decided to destroy an economic rival.
Good God! Your bare face denial is pathological. The Finnish army was intrinsic in the siege of Leningrad as well as Stalingrad. The strategy of the Finnish and German Army was to try to starve the civilian population into submission. The poor women and children were reduced to cannibalism. The behaviour of Germany and Finland towards the Russian population is considered by many as genocide.
"...wars by declaring war on you for commiting crimes on a scale unseen in human history."
Declaring war on "me"? I'm sorry I don't understand. Who is "you"?
And "crimes unseen in human history"? What about the killing of 50 million native Americans? What about the slave trade? And what about the massacre and starving of the Irish by the English? What England did to Ireland was genocidal.
The Nazis were criminals, yes, and we condemn them but they are not unique, for the sake of honesty.
"Our country saved the world from an evil which unfortunately spawned in Germany and Austria."
The insatiable greed of Anglo-Saxon power will destroy this planet. The pathological lies in the favour of its industrial monopolies and the model of consumerism and the entertainment industry which keeps people dumb, will be fatal to the mankind.
Note that I did not give any credit to Hitler even though you might have wished so. Why should I? Hitler was an U.S./Brit creation.
"Had democracy tried to come back after hitlers death it would have been nothing but a massacre. "
It is total bogus. 70% of the victims of the ww2 died after summer 1944, i.e., after the famous failed attempt against Hitler's life led by Stauffenberg.
"Had democracy tried to come back after hitlers death it would have been nothing but a massacre. "
Hitler had powerful enemies. This approach is like directly from the Mediaeval witch hunts and is, of course, vansittartist, i.e., racist.
Germany had been a democracy before Hitler and the country itself harbored long tradition of democracy, from the Middle Ages (its city states which often were republics).
What Britons think about ww2 is somehow "religious", and that is greatly propaganda.
"But Germany failed to see the lies of Hitler ..."
As soon as Hitler took over, the anti-Nazi resistance which was active from the start and which attempted Hitler's life several times even before the war, warned the Allied of Hitler, repeatedly. It would seem curious how deaf ears the British leadership had, but if we acknowledge that Hitler was part of Britain's plans to destroy Germany (a true "Trojan horse") this curious issue becomes clear.
The British Empire was a very experienced puppet master, and before ww2 it was still world's leading super power. The scheming of the British Establishment was extremely dirty, and money was always behind it - that was totally acceptable for the establishment to conjure a war.
"Also I do not dehumanize the German people you know why?"
The whole argument itself which you proposed was based on deliberate dehumanization which was the nucleus of the anti-German propaganda campaign from 1914 on.
Perhaps the massacre of the Jews and the invasions of surrounding countries dampened our outlook on Germany. Just a little bit, maybe causing the death of almost 100 million people and destroying Europe made us kinda pissed off with Germany. Maybe invading belgium in 1914 starting a war which was complete bullshit between us kinda made us angry with Germany.
Youre saying that the English started both wars by declaring war on you for commiting crimes on a scale unseen in human history. Riiight
"Perhaps the massacre of the Jews and the invasions of surrounding countries dampened our outlook on Germany. "
It did, while the focus should be on the true culprits - the Nazi party, its ideologists and the leadership.
The Nazi crimes are severe enough to call the government evil, definitely yes. However, Britain was allied with the Soviet which had started massacring its own citizens long before the war.
As Britain/US funded the Nazis, they are partly responsible of the Nazi crimes too.
Blame youre leaders not England. Our country saved the world from an evil which unfortunately spawned in Germany and Austria.
You could blame us and the USA and Poland and Russia. But Germany failed to see the lies of Hitler and the Nazis and paid the price that comes with it... complete annihalation.
Germany serves as a warning of what happens when men control other men and what happens when we the world are called to stop them.
"Our country saved the world from an evil which unfortunately spawned in Germany and Austria."
Your country created the conditions for the Nazis to rise to power, and your country also funded the NSDAP from the late 1920s, and that help was decisive for the victory in 1933. When Hitler took over, he faked the fire of the parlament and, just like Bush, deprived the citizens from civil rights.
The first step to the "second Punic war" was to make Germany totalitarian.
"When are you going to give an explanation as to what on earth was the Finnish army doing at Leningrad and Stalingrad helping Nazi Germany wage total war on innocent Russians?"
This is a non-question which contains untrue arguments. Nobody can answer a question which lacks structure. Ms.Trottelllumme123 gave very good replies on the question as to why Finland had to ally Germany (which she actually did not want). As to Leningrad and Stalingrand, the Finnish army did not assist these campaigns.
"Removing Hitler would not have done anything. You would have to destroy the entire Nazi leadership and unbrainwash the German people to completely destroy nazism."
This is almost identical compared to the attitudes of Churchill and Eden who decided to give up the resistance to Gestapo. I think that their deed was one of the most cowardly betrayals in the history of mankind. An anti/Nazi coup would have saved tens of millions of lives.
"Removing Hitler would not have done anything. You would have to destroy the entire Nazi leadership and unbrainwash the German people to completely destroy nazism."
Then there were entire underground networks which helped people, particularly Jews, who had gotten into trouble with the Nazi administration. In Berlin alone there were ca. 10000 jews hiding the Nazi administration, and there were 8 helpers per one hiding person. These people suffered terribly from the RAF bombings.
"I've been searching Nazi related videos but I can't find any comments from you at all. You claim to be anti Nazi but you are obsessed with British related WW2 videos."
Everebody, rightly acknowledged the Nazi crimes, and I cannot stand watching what those villains did to Europe, and I am mad at Britain's two-faced policy with them and fraternizing with them secretly.
You are a mean person, Mr.LordGod. You spy on me and you censor me with your 'anti-British' nonsense.
There were tens of assassination attempts against Hitler and I respect those who tried to take his life. But Churchill and Roosevelt abandoned those brave Germans,even gave them up to Gestapo. They died horrible deaths in the kzs.
How can Churchill and Roosevelt be held responsible for the internal actions of a country they were at war with. That is victim culture gone mad. The only way to liberate Germany was to totally smash the Nazi war machine.
"The only way to liberate Germany was to totally smash the Nazi war machine."
That was the excuse to wreak much more destruction than was necessary, which excuse was later fed to the great public by the media, as a sugar-coated heroic version.
The west had all clues how to remove Hitler from power, but having a friendly and democratic German government to meet with afterwards would have been an embarassment. I can provide you with several books and articles on this topic.
The real reasons for the mindset that lead Germany into the Nazi nightmare is rooted in the relatively late unification of Germany.The Imperialist desires of a unified Germany, The influence of a deeply bigoted, anti Semitic Catholic church, which in turn could take us back to the 30 year war & the interference of Catholic Spain and France. Blaming the Western Capitalists backing what they saw as a lesser of two evils between Fascism and Bolshevism is simplistic and nothing new.
I do not think that England caused more destruction neccessary. Coventery and London were razed to the ground, we made it clear to Germany that we would resist and win at any cost. And if that cost is to destroy German cities and return the destruction tenfold then so be it.
Germany started the war and would not see its end until everly last German lie dead with a rifle in their hands and so England destroyed Germany and as many people in it possible until It did surrender. War is War, we won
"I do not think that England caused more destruction neccessary. Coventery and London were razed to the ground, we made it clear to Germany that we would resist and win at any cost. And if that cost is to destroy German cities and return the destruction tenfold then so be it."
Britain bombs for three months Germany because Chufrchill wanted to provoke it to bomb Britain, in order to lure the U.S. to join. Thus Churchill is responsible of Coventry and the Blitz.
If we had killed hitler. He had an appointed succesor and an entire board of loyal fanatical minons. Killing him would have put someone SENSIBLE in charge.
Hitler WON WW2 for the allies. His personal meddling caused major fuckups. If we had killed him the military would have taken direct control. In this instance Stalingrad would have been won and the war in the east may never have started and England invaded.
If he had been killed in 1940, WW2 would have been lost.
An assasination of hitler would have won WW2 for Germany and Himmler still in charge would have killed every Jew in europe.
Youre lack of knowladge about the English side and complete defence of Germany when even if it were the Nazis they had to be voted in somehow. Show that some of that facist patriotism lies within you still.
"An assasination of hitler would have won WW2 for Germany and Himmler still in charge would have killed every Jew in europe."
Hardly so. There were forces in Germany which wanted the democracy back, and Britain had an opportunity to do it less costly than it did - and everybody lost in this folly.
And Britain had earlier allied with the Antisemitic Military dictatorship of Poland which was expansive towards Lithuania and Czechoslolovakia in 1938, having begun the pogroms immediately in 1919.
What you propose is a full scale revoloution against a military dictatorship which maintains complete control over its citizens.
Had democracy tried to come back after hitlers death it would have been nothing but a massacre. More would have died in the attempt than the actual war itself. Could you imagine Goring and himmler adressing the troops, the SS would see them as traitors and murder them all. A democratic revoloution would have been nothing but suicide for many Germans and hopeless
You have been banging on posting your revisionist Anglophobic theories for over a year now.When are you going to give an explanation as to what on earth was the Finnish army doing at Leningrad and Stalingrad helping Nazi Germany wage total war on innocent Russians?
Removing Hitler would not have done anything. You would have to destroy the entire Nazi leadership and unbrainwash the German people to completely destroy nazism. If we had killed hitler he wouldve been made a matyr and the German people wouldve resisted with tenfold determination to avenge their glorious leader with Hermann Goring at their head.
Germany had to be destroyed and its people shown what the power of all nations can do to those who step out of line. And serve as a lesson
"Removing Hitler would not have done anything. You would have to destroy the entire Nazi leadership and unbrainwash the German people to completely destroy nazism."
There were tens of assassinations against Hitler's life and he escaped with dumb luck.
Your post is typically Vansittarist post where the Germans are dehumanized. Let me remind you, that he thead of the Deutsche Bank was Hjalmr Schacht, a man from London City who helped Hitler to power. This is true but discreetly left unsaid.
" Churchill was ridiculed for his warning of the true nature of the Nazis, because no one believed even Hitler was mad enough to start another war You are deliberately ignoring the time line of events to fit your theories."
They are true, unfortunately. Hitler would never have been able to make his coup in 1933 without British-based funding.
"You put your anti British opinions all over British videos do you not?"
Are you practicing Soviet-type censorship here? You define what is "anti-British" and what is not?
Are those who criticize the Iraqi war "anti-British" or "anti-American"?
If I remind about the FACT that the British Empire funded the Nazis in the 30s, it is the same thing actually that the U.S. created the Al Qaida and Taleban. The U.S. even trained them!
Britain is one thing and its establishment is another.
European countries Inc Finland were trading with Hitler. Stalin had a pact with him. Linking pre war trading with Hitler and then manipulating the blame onto the English as the creaters of Nazi ideology is just insane. Churchill was ridiculed for his warning of the true nature of the Nazis, because no one believed even Hitler was mad enough to start another war You are deliberately ignoring the time line of events to fit your theories. That is the trait of a conspiracy theorist not a historian
"With Hitler and the Gestapo in power, Central Bank President and Economics Minister Hjalmar Schacht threw all resources into creating a Nazi war machine. Fritz Thyssen was made the dictator of the Ruhr region, with mammoth war contracts. He and his British-Wall Street allies took complete ownership of every industrial concern in which Thyssen was involved; his opponents were defeated, purged, and arrested."
"... vailed English hate opinions on WW2 british sites."
My sympathy to the British in general.
I don't stand lies. This RAF triumphalism here is atrocity denial and eulogy of an insignificant campaign.
It is also political treachery, veiling Britain's true motives, influence and responsibility of the ww2. The Anglo/British oligarchies are responsible of 70m lives. They armed up and funded dictatorial governments, including the Nazis and started a war guaranteeing gigantic profits to them.
I've seen the cheap, nasty, undermining comments you have made about the
fast disappearing British generation that helped save Europe from the Nazis. Now you are giving it the innocent soft soap approach. You slippery eel. Despite your protests, under your veneer of self congratulatory, false balanced opinions you have a malevolent anti British and pro Nazi agenda. Get back to what you do best! Manipulating your half truths and denying Finlands WW2 war record.
I almost every post I point out that I AM NOT DEFENDING THE NAZIS. You must already know it, it is just your 'tactics' which is like from soccer game, and doesn't lead anywhere.
I am not anti-British. I think that these Lancaster videos are offensive because they eulogize an atrocious campaign against civilians.
If the Guernica campaign was eulogized, there would be an outcry of protest. Not surprisingly similar British campaigns hurt too.
I am not anti-British. I think that these Lancaster videos are offensive because they eulogize an atrocious campaign against civilians.
You put your anti British opinions all over British videos do you not?
You even spread your hate on the Battle of Britain videos. When Britain stopped the Nazis fire bombing London. You don't fool me with your false pleadings of innocence.
The German nightfighters would have been heroes if they had turned their guns on the Nazi elite and toppled Hitler. The next night no Bombers attacking the German Industrial base.
" You are a myopic bigoted arrogant Nazi apologist even if you can't see it yourself. "
A person, me, who defends non-combatants and the honour of the brave German people who tried to get rid of Hitler and help their persecuted Jewish countrymen, is no Nazi apologist.
It is you who tries to manipulate. You do it for the sake of the other readers, so they would believe your lies. You know damn well that I am no Nazi apologist.
Lies? Really? You can find about the British SS even here on YT. See "DIE WAFFEN SS BRITISCHES FREIKORPS THE BRITISH FREE CORPS"
I give you and advice, Mr.LordGodofMercy. Stick to the truth. Don't lie. You have already lost all your credibility.
You are also a bully. Since you take my posts as "anti-British propaganda", you try to persuade yourself and the others that I'd be a Nazi sympathizer which I am definitely not.
You call me a bully because your cheap lies and twisting of facts undermines the people that helped bring down. The only people that agree with your preposterous rants are impressionable adolescents. You are a myopic bigoted arrogant Nazi apologist even if you can't see it yourself. Everyone Knows that the 6 British Pows that were dressed by the Nazis in SS uniform was a propaganda stunt. Another example of your feckless lying.
And not only assisted, also funded and provided the ideology with an Imperial seal of approval, and helped Hitler to usurp the power by a coup in 1933.
If this is not a crime, then what is? And the British establishment was behind it.
hwSSit 'THUS BANK OF ENGLAND WAS INVOLVED WITH HOLOCAUST AND THE ZYKLON B GAS!!!'
An example of your cheap nasty
twist of fact. In the early 1930's banks invest in a legitimate chemical company making a pestacide. In 1942 (when Finland was allied to the 3rd Reich)
a Nazi discovers it is a cheap way to kill Nazi victims in their death camps Britain had been at war with the Nazis for 3 years. Shame on your cheap desperate attempts to discredit the nation that liberated those victims.
"And of course the Finnish state made it official. You are on very thin moral ice."
I don't have to worry about my morality or the morality of my country.
Tell me Lord God of Mercy, how much of morality is left of the U.K.?
Guess whom are you defending now? You are defending the circles that SUPPORTED THE NAZIS INTO POWER! That was Bank of England and its U.S. affiliate Union Banking Corporation, led by PRESCOTT BUSH!
The U.K. RAISED THE NAZIS TO POWER - A DREADFUL CRIME!!
There were even BRITISH SS DIVISIONS!! There were SS divisions of almost every nation of Europe.They were under HITLER! They were all INDIVIDUALS (stupid individuals) WHO JOINED SS FOR THEIR PERSONAL CHOICE.
Your posts are incredibly stupid, Mr.LordGodofMercy.
British SS Divisions: Absolute and total lies. Are you that desperate that you have ditched your fact twisting and resorting to lying through your teeth. I've just watched a video of Hitler being given a rapturous welcome in Helsinki. Much like the Beatles being welcomed in New York Judging his welcome no wonder thousands of Finns joined his SS cause. And of course the Finnish state made it official. You are on very thin moral ice
"Let us say that they were at par with the SS. That is fair in my opinion."
By this I mean that RAF by its bombing directed at civilians DELIBERATELY, implemented a POLITICAL AGENDA.
Since it was NOT MILITARY BUT POLITICAL, RAF Bomber Command WAS LIKE SS, THE POLITICAL WING OF THE GERMAN ARMY or the POLITICAL WING OF THE RED ARMY. All three killed civilians indiscriminately.
" They enjoyed their murderous activites and were in fact more callous and ruthless than the nazis."
Let us say that they were at par with the SS. That is fair in my opinion. Both forces had a political mission which manifested the superiority of a nation at the cost of non-combatants.
'Let us say that they were at par with the SS. That is fair in my opinion. Both forces had a political mission which manifested the superiority of a nation at the cost of non-combatants.
"hwSShit. Your opinions are the same as those of Nazi sympathizers"
The only thing you are capable of doing is insulting, Mr.LordGodofMercy. And you don't insult only me. Anybody who says uncomfortable facts about the British Empire is a potential "Nazi" to you. It is really pathetic that you can't do better than that.
A Nazi is a person who believes in the Nazi doctrine, Hitler's "Mein Kampf", is a member of a Fascist or racist organization. And that's not me, nor any of my friends.
"Your opinions are the same as those of Nazi sympathizers."
This is defamation. I have condemned Hitler, the Nazi party, the SS, Gestapo and the ideology in innumerable posts. I wholeheartedly agree that they were criminals!
What you dislike is my post is that THERE IS AN UNDENIABLE CONNECTION WITH THE WESTERN CAPITAL AND HITLER! The greatest "God Father" of Hitler was MONTAGU NORMAN, head of BANK OF ENGLAND, and the U.S. affiliate AVERELL HARRIMAN was behind the RACIAL POLITICS.
Your opinions are the same as those of Nazi sympathizers. Finland used Dornier and Heinkle bombers purchased from their Nazi Allies to Bomb and terrorize Russian women and children
LordGod. Finland and Norway were neutral countries. England helped in their destruction, including the English invasion of Norway.
No one is trying to discredit any servicemen. Most of the English in bomber command were out and out war criminals. They enjoyed their murderous activites and were in fact more callous and ruthless than the nazis.
Well, the safety issues of the Lancaster bomber type reveal the arrogance of a super power, with maximal destructive goals attained at the cost of the crew's safety. That's it.
"designed by genius built by craftsmen for heroes to fly"
The Lancs were flying coffins. When they crashlanded, lots of aircrew were killed as it was virtually impossible to escape from the fuselage.
Then the belly turret was left out, for the nightfighters to make "Jazz und Schräge Musik" which was lethal to the air crew too.
The systemic analyst Prof. Freeman Dyson complained about these defects "designed by genius" for the "heroes" in missions against workers' quarters, hospitals, etc.
you clearly know nothing hwschilt Lanc's never had belly turrets ,the bomb bay is to long, "When they crashlanded, lots of aircrew were killed" no shit sherlock - do people walk away from plane crashes today? war experience led to the removal of the ventral turret, the plane flew faster - losses fell. except for the B-29 (but never faced the Luftwaffe) the Lancaster was the premiere heavy bomber of ww2
"Lanc's never had belly turrets ,the bomb bay is to long,"
You war romanticism attains the Japanese Samurai level, Mr. Farmerned.
Similarly Mizubishi Zeros were left without armour in order to enhance their speed and manoeverability. The lives of the pilots did not matter.
And like the Japanese, the British made the payload maximal at the cost of its crew's safety. The crew was gun fodder, as we know. Many decent Brits criticized this, even Prof. Freeman Dyson who served the RAF as analyst.
Are you a born idiot or do you work at it hwshilt?
zero's beat everything in the air in 41-42 even most later American designs couldn't match them it a turning fight , and had to adopt a "zoom and boom" tactic
Lancaster's was a bomber , the best that flew in ww2 over Europe, it carried more, heavier bombs, further than any other i've ever heard about, if your going to say the allies should have built mosquito's instead of ANY of the heavy bomber's i would agree(lower aircrew losses more effective bombing), but thats the advantage of hindsight
no aircraft ever built could carry enough armour to stop an 88mm AA shell
"Lancaster's was a bomber , the best that flew in ww2 over Europe, it carried more, heavier bombs, further than any other i've ever heard about ..."
And these bombs were most often dropped on women, children, old people, the hospitalized; then on churches, monasteries, mediaeval city centres and working-class housing.
Wery questionable reputation indeed.
Then the German night fighters applied "Jazz und schräge Musik" on their bellies. Once aimed, the expendable air crew was doomed.
Why should the British defend bombing Dresden? who started bombing innocent civillians? Ive read what hwscchildt has to say, I concllude, did Finland have her cities destroyed?, to all the bleeding hearts on this subject I say, what about London, Coventry, Leeds , Manchester , Plymouth etc., etc.Imagine the terror of nightly death from the skies for Londeners??? Ive never heard, EVER, about how terrible that was for them!! Bomber Harris was right! "sow the wind then expect the whirlwind"
You could use internet yourself. When the Soviet attacked THE NEUTRAL and DEMOCRATIC Finland in Dec. 1939, UNPROVOKED, it bombed civilians in 30 localities on the first day.
And more followed in the coming years.
Then, Germanophile. Even though the Nazis bombed Warzaw, Rotterdam, etc. it was Britain which first bombed German civilian targets at Mönchengaldbach on 11th May 1940, 3 months before the first British civilian casualty.
"and not sure if firebombs are ever used on strategic targets"
I second that Mr. Tessler. The incendiaries were for roasting and suffocating people. The firestorm was always the objective of the RAF night-time carpet bombing sorties.
Thank you. I believe we are both grateful to live in a world where we can express our opinions.I happen to agree with many of your statements and even Churchill regretted Dresden after the event, however it's intention wasn't to kill civilians but to disrupt the oil plants there. Dresden had been spared for the first years for it's cultural centre and it was for this reason that the city was flooded with refugees hence the astronomical death toll.
with respect, you don't put that much tonnage on an over-populated city without intending civilian carnage. britain's not alone in that. all major parties in war (except italy, maybe lol) did same when they had opportunity. put please don't say it was about 'oil plants' (what is an oil plant, btw? refinery? that would be strategic target, but you don't carpet bomb strategic targets). besides, germany was damn near out of oil by then.
hwschildt seems to have become a victim of anti-british propaganda himself despite claiming to hate propaganda. The luftwaffe started the bombing campaign against non-military targets by accident but in war you get revenge. Bombing was mainly on industrial areas where demoralising the workers or destroying the factories will encourage your enemy to surrender. No-one claims bombing civilians was heroic, but facing the enemy defences to complete your missions was heroic.
Typical denial. Your arguments are directly from stone age. They reveal not only your chauvinism but also your ignorance. A person provided with your patriotic attitudes while ignoring the value of all world cultures, is capable of following Nazi political agendas. Ofcourse fascism is an attitude related to chauvinism and is not necessarily associated with countries like Germany or Italy. Britain was, out of necessity, allied with a power of red-dyed fascism — the Soviet. Makes you proud eh?
" No-one claims bombing civilians was heroic, but facing the enemy defences to complete your missions was heroic."
Actually ypur post is quite good. I agree with you in most points. But the poor outcome and many grisly details were hushed up after the war. Dresden was a failure because it leaked to the press and Goebbels took over.
The British don't want to know the true nature of the campaign. But even certain systemic analysts of RAF themselves thought that they were assisting a war crime.
As in any war it is a game of propaganda, and declaring the death toll would have a negative impact on the british and americans however it was not hushed up, merely not reported - a selective media if you will. My grandfather remembers the news that Dresden, last untouched city in Germany had been razed. He cheered then. Now, he wishes more was done to tame Bomber Harris' schemes. Harris simply wanted to boast of the forces he could muster. Again it was ignorance not the intent to cause harm.
Thank for your post WilsonGrahams. It was positive. Hence the plus point.
I have always wondered why was it that all what is best in countries have to be destroyed in wars. There's something very primitive in it.
You, Mr. Wilsongrahams, love in in your country, England, what is old and English, like old pubs in small towns, founded in the 16th century. Believe me that similar things are in Europe too. It is ultimate sadism to destroy a soul of a locality. It was not of military value.
I agree it is a sad loss. It was never of tactical value but of strategic value in corroding the will to fight. In hindsight we know this had the opposite effect but at the time there was no further evidence - it was the first instance of strategic bombing. Poor bombing accuracy was the instigator of strategic bombing. Daylight raids were too costly and dive bombing was too inefficient over the distances and targets involved, so level carpet bombing at night was seen as the EASIEST solution!!
There area bombing was political. And the high order was to destroy the culture and homes, not industry and communications, serving the occupying army.
I have always wondered how mildly ex Nazis were punished, and, on the other hand, how heartless was the treatment of German civilians. The Morgenthau plan was partly implemented until some U.S. politicians realized the peril of the Soviet. Actually ww2 ended in the 1990s.
To conclude: just like Germany and Soviet, Britain was genocidal too.
To sum up: I just don't believe much what the British say about the Bomber War. British histories are all more or less biased: Richard Overy is extremely biased but Max Hastings much less (enough to get his work published). His "Bomber command" is actually very good.
I think that a couple of generations still have to die before we can see works which would give us unbiased presentations of the ww2 air wars. To undestand its nature we have to study the politics and military of the 1910s too.
This is the British pro-Bomber Command propaganda. Indeed: Frederick Taylor = "iuyrtyrytr"and Richard Overy = "iuyrtyrytr"
LOL
The Nazis had to be crushed but the "shock and awe" treatment of the civilians was a similar war crime as the Gondor Legion mission against Guernica.
Civilian is civilian no matter which side.
The whole ww2 main stream history of the RAF Bomber Command is a masterpiece of lies and brainwash, with the exception of Max Hasting's "Bomber Command" .
Absolutely not. I think that those who fancy bombing just ordinary people sleeping at night (while their criminal gowt & other bastards were safe in luxury bunkers), and seeing something heroic in it are daft.
The Japanese kamikaze pilots at least targeted warships while their "brave" British kamikaze brethren targeted homes, hospitals, schools, etc. What's the deal of heroism? Can you see them when they burn to death? The Germans and Russians killers at least saw it all up close. LOL
War is a nasty horrible business and bombing city's was probably one of the more nastier aspects of it but what ever the moral view point of today is try and look at it from the view point of the times.
This is very true: the values of the 30s and 40s weren't very human. It was the dark era when democracy failed everywhere.
But I don't always trust what winners write about history. The British Bomber war is so obvious as regards propagaanda. Even some mps had to be soothed because the Government and Prime Minister didn't have guts to reveal its true nature. After the war Churchill washed his hands neatly sacrificing Harris who had implemeted his agendas of terror or "morale" bombing.
Firstly, I'm no "Fritz", secondly, those "Fritzs" were our enemies, thirdly, I disbelieve any kind for propaganda. Pro-brit chauvinist propaganda to me is as yucky as the revanche-spirited and retarted German propaganda. My point is that you are a hypocrite. Lol
I'm not motivated in seeking Germans some excuses to accept the unjust deeds of the Nazi Government. I'm not interested to seek any revenge for Germans either. What I'm after is to condemn hypocrisy. "Pot blames the kettle" is the proper phrase here, even though I'm happy that the Western Allies won the war.
Lastly, you British didn't do it alone. Some others did it for you. Lol
Our arch enemy was the Soviet which was similar tyranny as the Nazi Germany. They wanted to annect our country to the Soviet. The Winter War was against both when they were allied and had divided the Eastern Europe.
You needed the Soviet to crush the Nazis which was a wise strategy ofcourse. But they did it for you. They are the real winners, not you. And they did it with the help of U.S. industrial capacity.
And finally, the "freedom" did not include Eastern Europe which was expendable.
Your comment that stuff like this offends many people. well your comment that you cannot see any difference between German British and American also offends people and yes I realize you were just talking about bombing but it is still offensive to a lot of people.
Well really, I cannot see the point of the targeting of civilians by the RAF and later also by the USAAF. Its morality and purpose were once questioned and will always be.
Don't forget that the British were able to attack at a pinpoint accuracy by De Haviland Mosquitoes which were used against Gestapo headquarters and in the U-boat war. These Mosquitoes were also used as "pathfinders" against cities. So, it seems to me a lie or excuse that civilian targets were chosen out of necessity.
We have been lied about this stuff for too long. First an illusion that the enemy would be defeated by bombing proved wrong. Secondly, it served political purposes afterwards. If one combines politics and military, the result is an extra number of civilian corpses.
The third illusion is that winners can do anything without objection because they dominate the history. The corpses of women and children will surface now and then until the responsibility is acknowledged, settled and case closed.
Well said that man! hws spouts a load of nonsense. Perhaps he should except the fact that WW2 was a 'Total War,' the Germans did not spare British cities or civpop in the Blitz in 1941. War is war, you fight to win, there is no point coming second! I have no time for those who bicker about the RAF & USAF bombing campaign, these men were heroes. It is a disgrace that the men of Bomber Command never received a campaign medal.
Churchill with his counsellor lord Cherwell calculated that using 10000 bomber aircraft they could destroy 50% of the apartments of German civilians, and kill 2,5 million civilians directly and indirectly.
The background of this thinking lies in the anti-German sentiments of the 1910s, not in the just anti-Nazi battle. I think Hitler was a god's gift to Churchill who now could concentrate on destroying the heart of Europe.
Churchill noticed his huge mistakes too late as the Soviet prevailed.
" the Germans did not spare British cities or civpop in the Blitz in 1941"
Brits started the bomber war which is the unconfortable fact. Actually the Germans didn't want to bomb Britain which is a fact too. Secondly, the nature of Luftwaffe's, like Red Army's bomber squadrons was "tactical", i.e., its ultimate purpose was to support ground troops, not mass destruction.
The Germans dropped ca. 75000 tons of bombs to Britain, the Allied ca 1 500 000 tons to Germany. The Germans were amateurs.
" the Germans did not spare British cities or civpop in the Blitz in 1941"
The Germans followed what the Brits did first.
(1) The Brits bomb coastal towns and Ruhr — the Germans follow with Coventry and blitz;
(2) Harris wants to test incendiaries and bombs Luebeck's, Rostock's etc. historical centres causing spectacular fires; the Germans retaliate with Canterbury, Bath etc.
(3) Churchill pleads to use anthrax bacteria and combat gas but the military knows that Germany would follow.
Go on! Give me minuses as much as you like, if you just don't like my posts. I take the minuses as real merits, not the complacent green plus points. You can take me for a troll. However, I am true in my opinions.
The reasons I make these videos and collect British military and home front memorabilia are I have an interest in British military history and the more I learned about war the more disgusted I became by it. Which made me have a lot more respect for the people who had to fight in it. I definitely do not see anything romantic or fun about war.
I do realise the true nature and background of bombing city's and its horrible but I am not looking at this from todays view point. Ask somebody who lived in Coventry, London, Warsaw and all the other city's Germany bombed and see how they felt at the time about German city's being bombed.
only prob with the Lanc is that it had no underbelly defences which the Luftwaffe nightfighters took advantage of.
buidseach 6 months ago
Black Death for the Germans
blockthehood 1 year ago
nice plane!!!!
mariodebontridder 1 year ago
saw a black one of these at EAA last year, so awesome!
edyken77 1 year ago
I've been in one of these planes... There is only 2 left (Working) in the world The queen of England owns one and the Air plane museum 15 minutes away from my house they let you go in the one that is not functional but they are still amazing aircrafts to see in flight! Amazing sight to see! :]
Ho11aBackMatt 1 year ago
617 Squadron operate GR4's now; a major difference I suspect.
mrrmancunian 2 years ago
the lanc in this ha v12 merlins
helstontvx 2 years ago
Another comment by Dr HwSShit Goebbels on behalf of his organisation;
Allowing Nazi's Understanding & Sympathy or A.N.U.S. for short.
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
" You post disgraceful comments that undermine an entire generation of a Nation that fought fascism."
They fought fascism but before that they destroyed democracies, and raised Fascists to power using them as the excuse to destroy the heart of Europe.
Britain did not only destroy and kill physically, she also tampered, demoralized and corrupted societies.
Then Britain used these Fascists, raised first to power, to fight against the Soviet - so the goal was to destroy the continent totally.
hwschildt 2 years ago
". It seems you are adept at making crass adolescent theories about Britain but typically ignore your countries own behaviour in WW2."
In a sense I admire you Mr.LordGod. You can embed several biases even in a short sentence. Your posts are also so genuinely and purely hostile that they are akin with Pravda's hate campaign against Poland and Finland in 1939. You would have become a good worker in a propaganda bureau. What a talent Hitler and Stalin lost in you!
hwschildt 2 years ago
HwSShit.
What on earth do you expect. You post disgraceful comments that undermine an entire generation of a Nation that fought fascism. And you expect that Finlands WW2 record should not be scrutinized?
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
" And you expect that Finlands WW2 record should not be scrutinized?"
Ha ha! Scrutinized by a half-wit like you. Why don't you learn to walk and chew gum at the same time?
hwschildt 2 years ago
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hwschildt 2 years ago
" Could you give me a source?"
And just FYI, the propaganda of the Communist party is just as "reliable" as the "Wochenschau". The Nazi and the Soviet parties are very selective in their versions if the "truth".
The Finns were called "white bandits" because the whites had defeated the reds during our civil war 1917-1918, but Stalin & c hated most the traditional (Social Democrat) labour movement deeming them "Menshevik". These PARLAMENTARIST leftists were the first in Stalin's killing list.
hwschildt 2 years ago
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hwschildt 2 years ago
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hwschildt 2 years ago
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hwschildt 2 years ago
" Apparently he had a twisted sense of humour as well."
And you are even worse whiner than Mr.Elbe River. You are so much like him.
hwschildt 2 years ago
"...Your bare face denial is pathological. The Finnish army was intrinsic in the siege of Leningrad as well as Stalingrad."
Source? The propaganda bureau of Stalin eh? LOL
Aand even Stalin knew that the Finns did not do that. After the war the highest Finnish leadership met him and he toasted to the Finnish army and asked how Marshall Mannerheim was doing.
That Finland never did what you are now saying Mr.LordGod, is the reason why it existed still after ww2.
hwschildt 2 years ago
hwSShit
So you are a callous denial monkey.
I expect that Stalin did what you claim, he was pretty adept at dispatching innocent Russian women and children himself. Apparently he had a twisted sense of humour as well. Finlands involvement at Leningrad is well documented, so is the plight of the innocent civilians. Personally I dont find it amusing at all.
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
"So you are a callous denial monkey"
Doh! You are just totally brainless.
hwschildt 2 years ago
hwSShit
Come now! You are fully aware of the Finnish involvement at the siege of Leningrad. What a cruel death those Women and children suffered due to Finnish troops with their Nazi allies blockading supplies. And you have the audacity to bad mouth British aircrew. Shame on you for the crass, spiteful, manipulative way you distort history. Shame on you for undermining the memory of heroes that fought Nazis.
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
"ou are fully aware of the Finnish involvement at the siege of Leningrad."
Frankly I am not. Could you give me any source? It would be the first time that you really refer to something.
You are quite an idiot. If the leadership of Finland had been really so completely moronic that they would have assisted the siege of Leningrad, Stalin, Molotov & c would never have forgiven it and our country would have been wiped out of the map. Hovever, there it is after all, against all odds.
hwschildt 2 years ago
Finland payed compensation to the Soviet Union. Many Russians have not forgiven Germany and the Axis Allies inc
Finlands involvement for the unhinged barbarism they unleashed on Russian civilians.
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
Mr. LordGod. From which asylum do you send your moronic posts? You don't appear quite sane.
hwschildt 2 years ago
Finland started to distance itself from Nazi Germany after the battle of Stalingrad
when the writing was on the wall for the Third Reich. It seems you are adept at making crass adolescent theories about Britain but typically ignore your countries own behaviour in WW2.
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
"Compensation" is the nice term for Ransom that Joseph Stalin extorted from Finland after unsuccessful
attempt to conquer Finland in 1940.
ssmusic214 2 years ago 8
Call it what you like, Finland by aiding Nazi Germany caused many an Innocent Russians death. Check out the concentration camps the Finns built for Russians and how many Russians died of hunger and exposure.
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
It's totally ridiculous to call invading Joseph Stalin's army trying to conquer Finland "Innocent".....
ssmusic214 2 years ago 8
The Finns deliberately starved to death and allowed Russians die of exposure. That is a real war crime. The civilians (women and particularly children) that starved to death in Leningrad were also victims of Finlands unofficial alliance with Nazi Germany.
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
Sure! According to Stalin's propaganda sources.
Can you be more specific? Where and when did it happened? How many Soviet POWs did Finns take?
ssmusic214 2 years ago 4
The Finnish concentration err ....sorry 'relocation' camps are well documented. Enjoy your research!
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
Halooooo! Ever hears of thing called "logic"?
You can not "research" something that doesn't exist or disprove negative. If you claim they exist, you need to provide evidence.
ssmusic214 2 years ago 2
And the "German militarism". Before the 150 years preceding year 1914:
(1) Britain had waged 10 wars;
(2) Russia had waged 7 wars;
(3) France had waged 5 wars;
(4) Austria had waged 3 wars;
(5) Prussia/Germany 3 wars.
So Britain is the true belligerent in the history of mankind. The myth of "German militarism" serves the hate propaganda from 1914 when Britain had decided to destroy an economic rival.
hwschildt 2 years ago
hwSShit
Good God! Your bare face denial is pathological. The Finnish army was intrinsic in the siege of Leningrad as well as Stalingrad. The strategy of the Finnish and German Army was to try to starve the civilian population into submission. The poor women and children were reduced to cannibalism. The behaviour of Germany and Finland towards the Russian population is considered by many as genocide.
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
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hwschildt 2 years ago
"...wars by declaring war on you for commiting crimes on a scale unseen in human history."
Declaring war on "me"? I'm sorry I don't understand. Who is "you"?
And "crimes unseen in human history"? What about the killing of 50 million native Americans? What about the slave trade? And what about the massacre and starving of the Irish by the English? What England did to Ireland was genocidal.
The Nazis were criminals, yes, and we condemn them but they are not unique, for the sake of honesty.
hwschildt 2 years ago
"Our country saved the world from an evil which unfortunately spawned in Germany and Austria."
The insatiable greed of Anglo-Saxon power will destroy this planet. The pathological lies in the favour of its industrial monopolies and the model of consumerism and the entertainment industry which keeps people dumb, will be fatal to the mankind.
Note that I did not give any credit to Hitler even though you might have wished so. Why should I? Hitler was an U.S./Brit creation.
hwschildt 2 years ago
"Germany serves as a warning of what happens when men control other men and what happens when we the world are called to stop them."
George W. Bush's grandfather Prescott Bush funded the Nazis and his Union Banking Corporation was a Nazi money laundry bank.
I think that the 3rd Reich is the most blatant example how big money can raise evil people to power.
hwschildt 2 years ago
"Had democracy tried to come back after hitlers death it would have been nothing but a massacre. "
It is total bogus. 70% of the victims of the ww2 died after summer 1944, i.e., after the famous failed attempt against Hitler's life led by Stauffenberg.
hwschildt 2 years ago
"Had democracy tried to come back after hitlers death it would have been nothing but a massacre. "
Hitler had powerful enemies. This approach is like directly from the Mediaeval witch hunts and is, of course, vansittartist, i.e., racist.
Germany had been a democracy before Hitler and the country itself harbored long tradition of democracy, from the Middle Ages (its city states which often were republics).
What Britons think about ww2 is somehow "religious", and that is greatly propaganda.
hwschildt 2 years ago
"But Germany failed to see the lies of Hitler ..."
As soon as Hitler took over, the anti-Nazi resistance which was active from the start and which attempted Hitler's life several times even before the war, warned the Allied of Hitler, repeatedly. It would seem curious how deaf ears the British leadership had, but if we acknowledge that Hitler was part of Britain's plans to destroy Germany (a true "Trojan horse") this curious issue becomes clear.
hwschildt 2 years ago
"Blame youre leaders not England."
The British Empire was a very experienced puppet master, and before ww2 it was still world's leading super power. The scheming of the British Establishment was extremely dirty, and money was always behind it - that was totally acceptable for the establishment to conjure a war.
hwschildt 2 years ago
"Also I do not dehumanize the German people you know why?"
The whole argument itself which you proposed was based on deliberate dehumanization which was the nucleus of the anti-German propaganda campaign from 1914 on.
hwschildt 2 years ago
Perhaps the massacre of the Jews and the invasions of surrounding countries dampened our outlook on Germany. Just a little bit, maybe causing the death of almost 100 million people and destroying Europe made us kinda pissed off with Germany. Maybe invading belgium in 1914 starting a war which was complete bullshit between us kinda made us angry with Germany.
Youre saying that the English started both wars by declaring war on you for commiting crimes on a scale unseen in human history. Riiight
Plawranc 2 years ago
"Perhaps the massacre of the Jews and the invasions of surrounding countries dampened our outlook on Germany. "
It did, while the focus should be on the true culprits - the Nazi party, its ideologists and the leadership.
The Nazi crimes are severe enough to call the government evil, definitely yes. However, Britain was allied with the Soviet which had started massacring its own citizens long before the war.
As Britain/US funded the Nazis, they are partly responsible of the Nazi crimes too.
hwschildt 2 years ago
Blame youre leaders not England. Our country saved the world from an evil which unfortunately spawned in Germany and Austria.
You could blame us and the USA and Poland and Russia. But Germany failed to see the lies of Hitler and the Nazis and paid the price that comes with it... complete annihalation.
Germany serves as a warning of what happens when men control other men and what happens when we the world are called to stop them.
Plawranc 2 years ago
"Our country saved the world from an evil which unfortunately spawned in Germany and Austria."
Your country created the conditions for the Nazis to rise to power, and your country also funded the NSDAP from the late 1920s, and that help was decisive for the victory in 1933. When Hitler took over, he faked the fire of the parlament and, just like Bush, deprived the citizens from civil rights.
The first step to the "second Punic war" was to make Germany totalitarian.
hwschildt 2 years ago
"When are you going to give an explanation as to what on earth was the Finnish army doing at Leningrad and Stalingrad helping Nazi Germany wage total war on innocent Russians?"
This is a non-question which contains untrue arguments. Nobody can answer a question which lacks structure. Ms.Trottelllumme123 gave very good replies on the question as to why Finland had to ally Germany (which she actually did not want). As to Leningrad and Stalingrand, the Finnish army did not assist these campaigns.
hwschildt 2 years ago
"Removing Hitler would not have done anything. You would have to destroy the entire Nazi leadership and unbrainwash the German people to completely destroy nazism."
This is almost identical compared to the attitudes of Churchill and Eden who decided to give up the resistance to Gestapo. I think that their deed was one of the most cowardly betrayals in the history of mankind. An anti/Nazi coup would have saved tens of millions of lives.
hwschildt 2 years ago
"Removing Hitler would not have done anything. You would have to destroy the entire Nazi leadership and unbrainwash the German people to completely destroy nazism."
Then there were entire underground networks which helped people, particularly Jews, who had gotten into trouble with the Nazi administration. In Berlin alone there were ca. 10000 jews hiding the Nazi administration, and there were 8 helpers per one hiding person. These people suffered terribly from the RAF bombings.
hwschildt 2 years ago
"I've been searching Nazi related videos but I can't find any comments from you at all. You claim to be anti Nazi but you are obsessed with British related WW2 videos."
Everebody, rightly acknowledged the Nazi crimes, and I cannot stand watching what those villains did to Europe, and I am mad at Britain's two-faced policy with them and fraternizing with them secretly.
You are a mean person, Mr.LordGod. You spy on me and you censor me with your 'anti-British' nonsense.
hwschildt 2 years ago
There were tens of assassination attempts against Hitler and I respect those who tried to take his life. But Churchill and Roosevelt abandoned those brave Germans,even gave them up to Gestapo. They died horrible deaths in the kzs.
hwschildt 2 years ago
How can Churchill and Roosevelt be held responsible for the internal actions of a country they were at war with. That is victim culture gone mad. The only way to liberate Germany was to totally smash the Nazi war machine.
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
"How can Churchill and Roosevelt be held responsible for the internal actions of a country they were at war with"
By money. That's the powerful thing which beats the arms. As simple as that.
hwschildt 2 years ago
"The only way to liberate Germany was to totally smash the Nazi war machine."
That was the excuse to wreak much more destruction than was necessary, which excuse was later fed to the great public by the media, as a sugar-coated heroic version.
The west had all clues how to remove Hitler from power, but having a friendly and democratic German government to meet with afterwards would have been an embarassment. I can provide you with several books and articles on this topic.
hwschildt 2 years ago
The real reasons for the mindset that lead Germany into the Nazi nightmare is rooted in the relatively late unification of Germany.The Imperialist desires of a unified Germany, The influence of a deeply bigoted, anti Semitic Catholic church, which in turn could take us back to the 30 year war & the interference of Catholic Spain and France. Blaming the Western Capitalists backing what they saw as a lesser of two evils between Fascism and Bolshevism is simplistic and nothing new.
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
I do not think that England caused more destruction neccessary. Coventery and London were razed to the ground, we made it clear to Germany that we would resist and win at any cost. And if that cost is to destroy German cities and return the destruction tenfold then so be it.
Germany started the war and would not see its end until everly last German lie dead with a rifle in their hands and so England destroyed Germany and as many people in it possible until It did surrender. War is War, we won
Plawranc 2 years ago
"I do not think that England caused more destruction neccessary. Coventery and London were razed to the ground, we made it clear to Germany that we would resist and win at any cost. And if that cost is to destroy German cities and return the destruction tenfold then so be it."
Britain bombs for three months Germany because Chufrchill wanted to provoke it to bomb Britain, in order to lure the U.S. to join. Thus Churchill is responsible of Coventry and the Blitz.
hwschildt 2 years ago
A German bomber made a navigation error and dumped its bombs on a cinema in metropoliton london.
Churchill registered this as an attack on the british people and responded in kind.
Do not say that is a lie because hitler personally reprimanded those pilots and there are records to prove this.
Also I do not dehumanize the German people you know why?
Because I am quater German, My HERO is German a serving member of the Luftwaffe in ww2 no less.
Plawranc 2 years ago
If we had killed hitler. He had an appointed succesor and an entire board of loyal fanatical minons. Killing him would have put someone SENSIBLE in charge.
Hitler WON WW2 for the allies. His personal meddling caused major fuckups. If we had killed him the military would have taken direct control. In this instance Stalingrad would have been won and the war in the east may never have started and England invaded.
If he had been killed in 1940, WW2 would have been lost.
Plawranc 2 years ago
An assasination of hitler would have won WW2 for Germany and Himmler still in charge would have killed every Jew in europe.
Youre lack of knowladge about the English side and complete defence of Germany when even if it were the Nazis they had to be voted in somehow. Show that some of that facist patriotism lies within you still.
Plawranc 2 years ago
"An assasination of hitler would have won WW2 for Germany and Himmler still in charge would have killed every Jew in europe."
Hardly so. There were forces in Germany which wanted the democracy back, and Britain had an opportunity to do it less costly than it did - and everybody lost in this folly.
And Britain had earlier allied with the Antisemitic Military dictatorship of Poland which was expansive towards Lithuania and Czechoslolovakia in 1938, having begun the pogroms immediately in 1919.
hwschildt 2 years ago
What you propose is a full scale revoloution against a military dictatorship which maintains complete control over its citizens.
Had democracy tried to come back after hitlers death it would have been nothing but a massacre. More would have died in the attempt than the actual war itself. Could you imagine Goring and himmler adressing the troops, the SS would see them as traitors and murder them all. A democratic revoloution would have been nothing but suicide for many Germans and hopeless
Plawranc 2 years ago
hwSShit
You have been banging on posting your revisionist Anglophobic theories for over a year now.When are you going to give an explanation as to what on earth was the Finnish army doing at Leningrad and Stalingrad helping Nazi Germany wage total war on innocent Russians?
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
Also
Removing Hitler would not have done anything. You would have to destroy the entire Nazi leadership and unbrainwash the German people to completely destroy nazism. If we had killed hitler he wouldve been made a matyr and the German people wouldve resisted with tenfold determination to avenge their glorious leader with Hermann Goring at their head.
Germany had to be destroyed and its people shown what the power of all nations can do to those who step out of line. And serve as a lesson
Plawranc 2 years ago
"Removing Hitler would not have done anything. You would have to destroy the entire Nazi leadership and unbrainwash the German people to completely destroy nazism."
There were tens of assassinations against Hitler's life and he escaped with dumb luck.
Your post is typically Vansittarist post where the Germans are dehumanized. Let me remind you, that he thead of the Deutsche Bank was Hjalmr Schacht, a man from London City who helped Hitler to power. This is true but discreetly left unsaid.
hwschildt 2 years ago
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hwschildt 2 years ago
The aim of Britain in the 1930 was to ripen Germany for war and then destroy. It is very clear if the repeat the events:
(1) The impossible reparations demands in 1919;
(2) confiscation of the trade vessels and railroad cars
(3) assassination of Rathenau in 1923, the ensuing hyperinflation, the Ruhr occupation
(4) bitterness rising - the building of war cartels and supporting fascist by Britain
(5) Hitler's coup and destruction of democracy 1933
(6) appeasement and instigation for war in 1939.
hwschildt 2 years ago
" Churchill was ridiculed for his warning of the true nature of the Nazis, because no one believed even Hitler was mad enough to start another war You are deliberately ignoring the time line of events to fit your theories."
They are true, unfortunately. Hitler would never have been able to make his coup in 1933 without British-based funding.
hwschildt 2 years ago
"European countries Inc Finland were trading with Hitler."
The British not only traded with Hitler but built its war industry cartels.
"Linking pre war trading with Hitler and then manipulating the blame onto the English as the creaters of Nazi ideology is just insane."
It is not at all insane. The eugenics is a U.S./British idea, and Britain practiced racial superiority for centruries in Ireland and India.
Hitler and Mussolini were reactionary powers and Britain funded them for that.
hwschildt 2 years ago
"You put your anti British opinions all over British videos do you not?"
Are you practicing Soviet-type censorship here? You define what is "anti-British" and what is not?
Are those who criticize the Iraqi war "anti-British" or "anti-American"?
If I remind about the FACT that the British Empire funded the Nazis in the 30s, it is the same thing actually that the U.S. created the Al Qaida and Taleban. The U.S. even trained them!
Britain is one thing and its establishment is another.
hwschildt 2 years ago
European countries Inc Finland were trading with Hitler. Stalin had a pact with him. Linking pre war trading with Hitler and then manipulating the blame onto the English as the creaters of Nazi ideology is just insane. Churchill was ridiculed for his warning of the true nature of the Nazis, because no one believed even Hitler was mad enough to start another war You are deliberately ignoring the time line of events to fit your theories. That is the trait of a conspiracy theorist not a historian
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
Anton Chaitkin, Larouchepub 8-25-2000 writes:
"With Hitler and the Gestapo in power, Central Bank President and Economics Minister Hjalmar Schacht threw all resources into creating a Nazi war machine. Fritz Thyssen was made the dictator of the Ruhr region, with mammoth war contracts. He and his British-Wall Street allies took complete ownership of every industrial concern in which Thyssen was involved; his opponents were defeated, purged, and arrested."
hwschildt 2 years ago
"... vailed English hate opinions on WW2 british sites."
My sympathy to the British in general.
I don't stand lies. This RAF triumphalism here is atrocity denial and eulogy of an insignificant campaign.
It is also political treachery, veiling Britain's true motives, influence and responsibility of the ww2. The Anglo/British oligarchies are responsible of 70m lives. They armed up and funded dictatorial governments, including the Nazis and started a war guaranteeing gigantic profits to them.
hwschildt 2 years ago
"How can the Neo Nazis hate you? "
Because I defend human values. I see both the Jews and Germans as human beings and worth respect.
hwschildt 2 years ago
You lie again! you only post on WW2
British sites.
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
"You lie again!"
You spy on me and try to censor me. Not only rude but also treacherous and dishonest scheming from your part.
hwschildt 2 years ago
"you are playing into the arms on Neo Nazis."
Definitely not. The Neo Nazis hate me as fervently as you do.
The truth hurts, does it, Mr.LordGod? Britain also supported the Italian Fascism financially.
hwschildt 2 years ago
I've seen the cheap, nasty, undermining comments you have made about the
fast disappearing British generation that helped save Europe from the Nazis. Now you are giving it the innocent soft soap approach. You slippery eel. Despite your protests, under your veneer of self congratulatory, false balanced opinions you have a malevolent anti British and pro Nazi agenda. Get back to what you do best! Manipulating your half truths and denying Finlands WW2 war record.
Finland/Italy = Stalingrad.
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
"... malevolent anti British and pro Nazi agenda"
I almost every post I point out that I AM NOT DEFENDING THE NAZIS. You must already know it, it is just your 'tactics' which is like from soccer game, and doesn't lead anywhere.
I am not anti-British. I think that these Lancaster videos are offensive because they eulogize an atrocious campaign against civilians.
If the Guernica campaign was eulogized, there would be an outcry of protest. Not surprisingly similar British campaigns hurt too.
hwschildt 2 years ago
hwSShit
Quote you
I am not anti-British. I think that these Lancaster videos are offensive because they eulogize an atrocious campaign against civilians.
You put your anti British opinions all over British videos do you not?
You even spread your hate on the Battle of Britain videos. When Britain stopped the Nazis fire bombing London. You don't fool me with your false pleadings of innocence.
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
"You even spread your hate on the Battle of Britain videos. When Britain stopped the Nazis fire bombing London."
That is a lie, like countless of posts of yours.
I have bashed Lancasters, yes, never Spitfires. Those fighter pilots are heroes to me.
The German nightfighters were heroes too, not because of their side but because they protected civilians from mass murderers.
hwschildt 2 years ago
The German nightfighters would have been heroes if they had turned their guns on the Nazi elite and toppled Hitler. The next night no Bombers attacking the German Industrial base.
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
How can the Neo Nazis hate you? you only post your vailed English hate opinions on WW2 british sites.
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
" You are a myopic bigoted arrogant Nazi apologist even if you can't see it yourself. "
A person, me, who defends non-combatants and the honour of the brave German people who tried to get rid of Hitler and help their persecuted Jewish countrymen, is no Nazi apologist.
It is you who tries to manipulate. You do it for the sake of the other readers, so they would believe your lies. You know damn well that I am no Nazi apologist.
So, what you are doing now is extremely cheap.
hwschildt 2 years ago
"British SS Divisions: Absolute and total lies."
Lies? Really? You can find about the British SS even here on YT. See "DIE WAFFEN SS BRITISCHES FREIKORPS THE BRITISH FREE CORPS"
I give you and advice, Mr.LordGodofMercy. Stick to the truth. Don't lie. You have already lost all your credibility.
You are also a bully. Since you take my posts as "anti-British propaganda", you try to persuade yourself and the others that I'd be a Nazi sympathizer which I am definitely not.
hwschildt 2 years ago
You call me a bully because your cheap lies and twisting of facts undermines the people that helped bring down. The only people that agree with your preposterous rants are impressionable adolescents. You are a myopic bigoted arrogant Nazi apologist even if you can't see it yourself. Everyone Knows that the 6 British Pows that were dressed by the Nazis in SS uniform was a propaganda stunt. Another example of your feckless lying.
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
hwwSShit
I really think you are an evil manipulator of facts. Perhaps you do not realise that you are playing into the arms on Neo Nazis.
That is your problem not mine.
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
Then LordGodofMercy.
You can't deny FACTS.
The facts are: FRITZ THYSSEN and HJALMAR SCHACHT, both HITLER'S BANKERS, were AFFILIATES OF THE BANK OF ENGLAND.
And what really nails it is that AVERELL HARRIMAN AND PRESCOTT BUSH funded A PROJECT FOR "RACIAL PURITY" COLLABORATING WITH HITLER.
As we remember that BUSH & co were AFFILIATES OF BANK OF ENGLAND, that links the British capital to HITLER'S MASTER RACE IDEOLOGY.
ERGO - THE U.K. ASSISTED THE HOLOCAUST.
hwschildt 2 years ago
Comment removed
hwschildt 2 years ago
"ERGO - THE U.K. ASSISTED THE HOLOCAUST."
And not only assisted, also funded and provided the ideology with an Imperial seal of approval, and helped Hitler to usurp the power by a coup in 1933.
If this is not a crime, then what is? And the British establishment was behind it.
hwschildt 2 years ago
hwSSit 'THUS BANK OF ENGLAND WAS INVOLVED WITH HOLOCAUST AND THE ZYKLON B GAS!!!'
An example of your cheap nasty
twist of fact. In the early 1930's banks invest in a legitimate chemical company making a pestacide. In 1942 (when Finland was allied to the 3rd Reich)
a Nazi discovers it is a cheap way to kill Nazi victims in their death camps Britain had been at war with the Nazis for 3 years. Shame on your cheap desperate attempts to discredit the nation that liberated those victims.
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
"And of course the Finnish state made it official. You are on very thin moral ice."
I don't have to worry about my morality or the morality of my country.
Tell me Lord God of Mercy, how much of morality is left of the U.K.?
Guess whom are you defending now? You are defending the circles that SUPPORTED THE NAZIS INTO POWER! That was Bank of England and its U.S. affiliate Union Banking Corporation, led by PRESCOTT BUSH!
The U.K. RAISED THE NAZIS TO POWER - A DREADFUL CRIME!!
hwschildt 2 years ago
Are you refering to the Finnish SS divisions?"
I already explained this.
There were even BRITISH SS DIVISIONS!! There were SS divisions of almost every nation of Europe.They were under HITLER! They were all INDIVIDUALS (stupid individuals) WHO JOINED SS FOR THEIR PERSONAL CHOICE.
Your posts are incredibly stupid, Mr.LordGodofMercy.
hwschildt 2 years ago
British SS Divisions: Absolute and total lies. Are you that desperate that you have ditched your fact twisting and resorting to lying through your teeth. I've just watched a video of Hitler being given a rapturous welcome in Helsinki. Much like the Beatles being welcomed in New York Judging his welcome no wonder thousands of Finns joined his SS cause. And of course the Finnish state made it official. You are on very thin moral ice
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
Comment removed
hwschildt 2 years ago
"Let us say that they were at par with the SS. That is fair in my opinion."
By this I mean that RAF by its bombing directed at civilians DELIBERATELY, implemented a POLITICAL AGENDA.
Since it was NOT MILITARY BUT POLITICAL, RAF Bomber Command WAS LIKE SS, THE POLITICAL WING OF THE GERMAN ARMY or the POLITICAL WING OF THE RED ARMY. All three killed civilians indiscriminately.
hwschildt 2 years ago
" They enjoyed their murderous activites and were in fact more callous and ruthless than the nazis."
Let us say that they were at par with the SS. That is fair in my opinion. Both forces had a political mission which manifested the superiority of a nation at the cost of non-combatants.
hwschildt 2 years ago
hwSShit
To quote you
'Let us say that they were at par with the SS. That is fair in my opinion. Both forces had a political mission which manifested the superiority of a nation at the cost of non-combatants.
Are you refering to the Finnish SS divisions?
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
Comment removed
hwschildt 2 years ago
"hwSShit. Your opinions are the same as those of Nazi sympathizers"
The only thing you are capable of doing is insulting, Mr.LordGodofMercy. And you don't insult only me. Anybody who says uncomfortable facts about the British Empire is a potential "Nazi" to you. It is really pathetic that you can't do better than that.
A Nazi is a person who believes in the Nazi doctrine, Hitler's "Mein Kampf", is a member of a Fascist or racist organization. And that's not me, nor any of my friends.
hwschildt 2 years ago
"Your opinions are the same as those of Nazi sympathizers."
This is defamation. I have condemned Hitler, the Nazi party, the SS, Gestapo and the ideology in innumerable posts. I wholeheartedly agree that they were criminals!
What you dislike is my post is that THERE IS AN UNDENIABLE CONNECTION WITH THE WESTERN CAPITAL AND HITLER! The greatest "God Father" of Hitler was MONTAGU NORMAN, head of BANK OF ENGLAND, and the U.S. affiliate AVERELL HARRIMAN was behind the RACIAL POLITICS.
hwschildt 2 years ago
"hwSShit"
Be careful with defamatory comments. I am not a Nazi sympathizer.
hwschildt 2 years ago
hwSShit
Your opinions are the same as those of Nazi sympathizers. Finland used Dornier and Heinkle bombers purchased from their Nazi Allies to Bomb and terrorize Russian women and children
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
LordGod. Finland and Norway were neutral countries. England helped in their destruction, including the English invasion of Norway.
No one is trying to discredit any servicemen. Most of the English in bomber command were out and out war criminals. They enjoyed their murderous activites and were in fact more callous and ruthless than the nazis.
swanningaround 2 years ago
hwSShit is a man with a mission to discredit Allied particularly English servicemen of WW2.
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago
"so the point of your gloating reply is"
Well, the safety issues of the Lancaster bomber type reveal the arrogance of a super power, with maximal destructive goals attained at the cost of the crew's safety. That's it.
hwschildt 2 years ago
" Bomber Harris was right! "sow the wind then expect the whirlwind"
The world will never forget the atrocity he committed. We won't deny Katyn, we won't deny the Nazi crimes. So we won't deny this either.
hwschildt 2 years ago
" on this subject I say, what about London, Coventry, Leeds , Manchester , Plymouth etc."
Everybody feels sympathy for the British civilians under the Blitz. Their sufferings are acknowledged and respected.
But your countrymen at many posts here sneer at German civilians which is fundamentally a racist attitude.
Nobody denies the value of resisting the Nazi government and ideology.
By the way, Churchill sneered at German civilians and the anti-Nazi resistance. That was cowardly of him.
hwschildt 2 years ago
designed by genius built by craftsmen for heroes to fly
sp2der 2 years ago
"designed by genius built by craftsmen for heroes to fly"
The Lancs were flying coffins. When they crashlanded, lots of aircrew were killed as it was virtually impossible to escape from the fuselage.
Then the belly turret was left out, for the nightfighters to make "Jazz und Schräge Musik" which was lethal to the air crew too.
The systemic analyst Prof. Freeman Dyson complained about these defects "designed by genius" for the "heroes" in missions against workers' quarters, hospitals, etc.
hwschildt 2 years ago
you clearly know nothing hwschilt Lanc's never had belly turrets ,the bomb bay is to long, "When they crashlanded, lots of aircrew were killed" no shit sherlock - do people walk away from plane crashes today? war experience led to the removal of the ventral turret, the plane flew faster - losses fell. except for the B-29 (but never faced the Luftwaffe) the Lancaster was the premiere heavy bomber of ww2
farmerned6 2 years ago
"Lanc's never had belly turrets ,the bomb bay is to long,"
You war romanticism attains the Japanese Samurai level, Mr. Farmerned.
Similarly Mizubishi Zeros were left without armour in order to enhance their speed and manoeverability. The lives of the pilots did not matter.
And like the Japanese, the British made the payload maximal at the cost of its crew's safety. The crew was gun fodder, as we know. Many decent Brits criticized this, even Prof. Freeman Dyson who served the RAF as analyst.
hwschildt 2 years ago
Are you a born idiot or do you work at it hwshilt?
zero's beat everything in the air in 41-42 even most later American designs couldn't match them it a turning fight , and had to adopt a "zoom and boom" tactic
farmerned6 2 years ago
"Are you a born idiot or do you work at it hwshilt?"
Do you have problems with self control, or are you just a soft lad, Mr. Farmerned?
hwschildt 2 years ago
No, just morons who like to edit history,
hwshilt
farmerned6 2 years ago
Lancaster's was a bomber , the best that flew in ww2 over Europe, it carried more, heavier bombs, further than any other i've ever heard about, if your going to say the allies should have built mosquito's instead of ANY of the heavy bomber's i would agree(lower aircrew losses more effective bombing), but thats the advantage of hindsight
no aircraft ever built could carry enough armour to stop an 88mm AA shell
farmerned6 2 years ago
"Lancaster's was a bomber , the best that flew in ww2 over Europe, it carried more, heavier bombs, further than any other i've ever heard about ..."
And these bombs were most often dropped on women, children, old people, the hospitalized; then on churches, monasteries, mediaeval city centres and working-class housing.
Wery questionable reputation indeed.
Then the German night fighters applied "Jazz und schräge Musik" on their bellies. Once aimed, the expendable air crew was doomed.
hwschildt 2 years ago
hwschildt just cutting and pasting your and my previous posts and repeating them?
that's lazy
the rest can be said of every ww2 bomber axis then allied
so the point of your gloating reply is?
farmerned6 2 years ago
Why should the British defend bombing Dresden? who started bombing innocent civillians? Ive read what hwscchildt has to say, I concllude, did Finland have her cities destroyed?, to all the bleeding hearts on this subject I say, what about London, Coventry, Leeds , Manchester , Plymouth etc., etc.Imagine the terror of nightly death from the skies for Londeners??? Ive never heard, EVER, about how terrible that was for them!! Bomber Harris was right! "sow the wind then expect the whirlwind"
GERMANOPHILE 2 years ago 2
you are quite correct. well said sir.
miserableoldcunt 2 years ago
Because that's exactly what you like to hear, Mr.miserableoldcunt.
hwschildt 2 years ago
" ...did Finland have her cities destroyed?"
You could use internet yourself. When the Soviet attacked THE NEUTRAL and DEMOCRATIC Finland in Dec. 1939, UNPROVOKED, it bombed civilians in 30 localities on the first day.
And more followed in the coming years.
Then, Germanophile. Even though the Nazis bombed Warzaw, Rotterdam, etc. it was Britain which first bombed German civilian targets at Mönchengaldbach on 11th May 1940, 3 months before the first British civilian casualty.
hwschildt 2 years ago
hmm. in what sense are you a "germanophile"?
tessler6868 2 years ago
nice plane
cossieftw 3 years ago
and not sure if firebombs are ever used on strategic targets
tessler6868 3 years ago 2
"and not sure if firebombs are ever used on strategic targets"
I second that Mr. Tessler. The incendiaries were for roasting and suffocating people. The firestorm was always the objective of the RAF night-time carpet bombing sorties.
hwschildt 2 years ago
Thank you. I believe we are both grateful to live in a world where we can express our opinions.I happen to agree with many of your statements and even Churchill regretted Dresden after the event, however it's intention wasn't to kill civilians but to disrupt the oil plants there. Dresden had been spared for the first years for it's cultural centre and it was for this reason that the city was flooded with refugees hence the astronomical death toll.
wilsongrahams 3 years ago
with respect, you don't put that much tonnage on an over-populated city without intending civilian carnage. britain's not alone in that. all major parties in war (except italy, maybe lol) did same when they had opportunity. put please don't say it was about 'oil plants' (what is an oil plant, btw? refinery? that would be strategic target, but you don't carpet bomb strategic targets). besides, germany was damn near out of oil by then.
tessler6868 3 years ago 4
hwschildt seems to have become a victim of anti-british propaganda himself despite claiming to hate propaganda. The luftwaffe started the bombing campaign against non-military targets by accident but in war you get revenge. Bombing was mainly on industrial areas where demoralising the workers or destroying the factories will encourage your enemy to surrender. No-one claims bombing civilians was heroic, but facing the enemy defences to complete your missions was heroic.
wilsongrahams 3 years ago
Typical denial. Your arguments are directly from stone age. They reveal not only your chauvinism but also your ignorance. A person provided with your patriotic attitudes while ignoring the value of all world cultures, is capable of following Nazi political agendas. Ofcourse fascism is an attitude related to chauvinism and is not necessarily associated with countries like Germany or Italy. Britain was, out of necessity, allied with a power of red-dyed fascism — the Soviet. Makes you proud eh?
hwschildt 3 years ago
I agree that the Nazis had to be beaten. The heart of Europe had to be made democratic again
But there are things that stink in the British policy as regards the continent. Frankly, I think that you British harbour racist attitudes.
hwschildt 3 years ago
" No-one claims bombing civilians was heroic, but facing the enemy defences to complete your missions was heroic."
Actually ypur post is quite good. I agree with you in most points. But the poor outcome and many grisly details were hushed up after the war. Dresden was a failure because it leaked to the press and Goebbels took over.
The British don't want to know the true nature of the campaign. But even certain systemic analysts of RAF themselves thought that they were assisting a war crime.
hwschildt 3 years ago
As in any war it is a game of propaganda, and declaring the death toll would have a negative impact on the british and americans however it was not hushed up, merely not reported - a selective media if you will. My grandfather remembers the news that Dresden, last untouched city in Germany had been razed. He cheered then. Now, he wishes more was done to tame Bomber Harris' schemes. Harris simply wanted to boast of the forces he could muster. Again it was ignorance not the intent to cause harm.
wilsongrahams 3 years ago
Thank for your post WilsonGrahams. It was positive. Hence the plus point.
I have always wondered why was it that all what is best in countries have to be destroyed in wars. There's something very primitive in it.
You, Mr. Wilsongrahams, love in in your country, England, what is old and English, like old pubs in small towns, founded in the 16th century. Believe me that similar things are in Europe too. It is ultimate sadism to destroy a soul of a locality. It was not of military value.
hwschildt 3 years ago
I agree it is a sad loss. It was never of tactical value but of strategic value in corroding the will to fight. In hindsight we know this had the opposite effect but at the time there was no further evidence - it was the first instance of strategic bombing. Poor bombing accuracy was the instigator of strategic bombing. Daylight raids were too costly and dive bombing was too inefficient over the distances and targets involved, so level carpet bombing at night was seen as the EASIEST solution!!
wilsongrahams 3 years ago
There area bombing was political. And the high order was to destroy the culture and homes, not industry and communications, serving the occupying army.
I have always wondered how mildly ex Nazis were punished, and, on the other hand, how heartless was the treatment of German civilians. The Morgenthau plan was partly implemented until some U.S. politicians realized the peril of the Soviet. Actually ww2 ended in the 1990s.
To conclude: just like Germany and Soviet, Britain was genocidal too.
hwschildt 3 years ago
To sum up: I just don't believe much what the British say about the Bomber War. British histories are all more or less biased: Richard Overy is extremely biased but Max Hastings much less (enough to get his work published). His "Bomber command" is actually very good.
I think that a couple of generations still have to die before we can see works which would give us unbiased presentations of the ww2 air wars. To undestand its nature we have to study the politics and military of the 1910s too.
hwschildt 3 years ago
iuyrtyrytr
xjr1300paul 3 years ago
"iuyrtyrytr"
This is the British pro-Bomber Command propaganda. Indeed: Frederick Taylor = "iuyrtyrytr"and Richard Overy = "iuyrtyrytr"
LOL
The Nazis had to be crushed but the "shock and awe" treatment of the civilians was a similar war crime as the Gondor Legion mission against Guernica.
Civilian is civilian no matter which side.
The whole ww2 main stream history of the RAF Bomber Command is a masterpiece of lies and brainwash, with the exception of Max Hasting's "Bomber Command" .
hwschildt 3 years ago
Comment removed
hwschildt 3 years ago
hwschildt are you daft ????
xjr1300paul 3 years ago
Absolutely not. I think that those who fancy bombing just ordinary people sleeping at night (while their criminal gowt & other bastards were safe in luxury bunkers), and seeing something heroic in it are daft.
The Japanese kamikaze pilots at least targeted warships while their "brave" British kamikaze brethren targeted homes, hospitals, schools, etc. What's the deal of heroism? Can you see them when they burn to death? The Germans and Russians killers at least saw it all up close. LOL
hwschildt 3 years ago
Well it's ok to fancy old aircraft. Lancs are great aircraft as such, ok.
hwschildt 3 years ago 2
War is a nasty horrible business and bombing city's was probably one of the more nastier aspects of it but what ever the moral view point of today is try and look at it from the view point of the times.
jbmilitarycollector 3 years ago
This is very true: the values of the 30s and 40s weren't very human. It was the dark era when democracy failed everywhere.
But I don't always trust what winners write about history. The British Bomber war is so obvious as regards propagaanda. Even some mps had to be soothed because the Government and Prime Minister didn't have guts to reveal its true nature. After the war Churchill washed his hands neatly sacrificing Harris who had implemeted his agendas of terror or "morale" bombing.
hwschildt 3 years ago
Er you started Fritz
coppersmiths 3 years ago
Firstly, I'm no "Fritz", secondly, those "Fritzs" were our enemies, thirdly, I disbelieve any kind for propaganda. Pro-brit chauvinist propaganda to me is as yucky as the revanche-spirited and retarted German propaganda. My point is that you are a hypocrite. Lol
hwschildt 3 years ago
I'm not motivated in seeking Germans some excuses to accept the unjust deeds of the Nazi Government. I'm not interested to seek any revenge for Germans either. What I'm after is to condemn hypocrisy. "Pot blames the kettle" is the proper phrase here, even though I'm happy that the Western Allies won the war.
Lastly, you British didn't do it alone. Some others did it for you. Lol
hwschildt 3 years ago
Why don't you tell us all about Finlands 'amazing' contribution in the struggle against Nazi tryanny?! lol
LIVERPOOLSCOTTISH 3 years ago
Our arch enemy was the Soviet which was similar tyranny as the Nazi Germany. They wanted to annect our country to the Soviet. The Winter War was against both when they were allied and had divided the Eastern Europe.
You needed the Soviet to crush the Nazis which was a wise strategy ofcourse. But they did it for you. They are the real winners, not you. And they did it with the help of U.S. industrial capacity.
And finally, the "freedom" did not include Eastern Europe which was expendable.
hwschildt 3 years ago
Your comment that stuff like this offends many people. well your comment that you cannot see any difference between German British and American also offends people and yes I realize you were just talking about bombing but it is still offensive to a lot of people.
jbmilitarycollector 3 years ago
Well really, I cannot see the point of the targeting of civilians by the RAF and later also by the USAAF. Its morality and purpose were once questioned and will always be.
Don't forget that the British were able to attack at a pinpoint accuracy by De Haviland Mosquitoes which were used against Gestapo headquarters and in the U-boat war. These Mosquitoes were also used as "pathfinders" against cities. So, it seems to me a lie or excuse that civilian targets were chosen out of necessity.
hwschildt 3 years ago
Easy to say in the comfort of your armchair, 60 years after the event.
hurricaneUK 3 years ago
We have been lied about this stuff for too long. First an illusion that the enemy would be defeated by bombing proved wrong. Secondly, it served political purposes afterwards. If one combines politics and military, the result is an extra number of civilian corpses.
The third illusion is that winners can do anything without objection because they dominate the history. The corpses of women and children will surface now and then until the responsibility is acknowledged, settled and case closed.
hwschildt 3 years ago
Well said that man! hws spouts a load of nonsense. Perhaps he should except the fact that WW2 was a 'Total War,' the Germans did not spare British cities or civpop in the Blitz in 1941. War is war, you fight to win, there is no point coming second! I have no time for those who bicker about the RAF & USAF bombing campaign, these men were heroes. It is a disgrace that the men of Bomber Command never received a campaign medal.
LIVERPOOLSCOTTISH 3 years ago
Churchill with his counsellor lord Cherwell calculated that using 10000 bomber aircraft they could destroy 50% of the apartments of German civilians, and kill 2,5 million civilians directly and indirectly.
The background of this thinking lies in the anti-German sentiments of the 1910s, not in the just anti-Nazi battle. I think Hitler was a god's gift to Churchill who now could concentrate on destroying the heart of Europe.
Churchill noticed his huge mistakes too late as the Soviet prevailed.
hwschildt 3 years ago
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hwschildt 3 years ago
" the Germans did not spare British cities or civpop in the Blitz in 1941"
Brits started the bomber war which is the unconfortable fact. Actually the Germans didn't want to bomb Britain which is a fact too. Secondly, the nature of Luftwaffe's, like Red Army's bomber squadrons was "tactical", i.e., its ultimate purpose was to support ground troops, not mass destruction.
The Germans dropped ca. 75000 tons of bombs to Britain, the Allied ca 1 500 000 tons to Germany. The Germans were amateurs.
hwschildt 3 years ago
" the Germans did not spare British cities or civpop in the Blitz in 1941"
The Germans followed what the Brits did first.
(1) The Brits bomb coastal towns and Ruhr — the Germans follow with Coventry and blitz;
(2) Harris wants to test incendiaries and bombs Luebeck's, Rostock's etc. historical centres causing spectacular fires; the Germans retaliate with Canterbury, Bath etc.
(3) Churchill pleads to use anthrax bacteria and combat gas but the military knows that Germany would follow.
hwschildt 3 years ago
Go on! Give me minuses as much as you like, if you just don't like my posts. I take the minuses as real merits, not the complacent green plus points. You can take me for a troll. However, I am true in my opinions.
hwschildt 3 years ago
The reasons I make these videos and collect British military and home front memorabilia are I have an interest in British military history and the more I learned about war the more disgusted I became by it. Which made me have a lot more respect for the people who had to fight in it. I definitely do not see anything romantic or fun about war.
jbmilitarycollector 3 years ago
I do realise the true nature and background of bombing city's and its horrible but I am not looking at this from todays view point. Ask somebody who lived in Coventry, London, Warsaw and all the other city's Germany bombed and see how they felt at the time about German city's being bombed.
jbmilitarycollector 3 years ago