Rethinkig Marxism: Andrew Kliman 2 of 2 "Contradictions of Capitalism's Value Production"

[marsCubed]

Marx actually put forward that Capitalism could go three ways.

It could turn to laissez fair madness; fascism.

It could be taken over by the working class in democratic revolution.

Or it could evolve into a stable and equal system, if the bosses properly agreed to stop destroying each other and make some plans for sustainable wealth production.

the capitalist class seem to see the folly in destroying their own markets these days.

In truth it is all we ever really needed.

now it can evolve safely

[asnanior]

Where did Marx state this? Ruthlessness in the market is immanent in any capitalist system; the sole drive of capital is to accumulate, it can't survive unless it grows. This makes capital control the capitalists rather then the other way around.

[marsCubed]

@asnanior I cannot find the source ATM.

Marx did not advocate this, he merely pointed out that it was a remedy available to the Capitalist class if they had the wiggle room to use it.

He believed that this band of fighting brothers were more likely to sink each other's boats.

However Capital is older.

These are strategies it is obviously pursuing in various ways,

They might be blind, but they are not all stupid.

some even like fluffy like Norway or Sweden.

a mix

UK has royalty but is not feudal.

[asnanior]

I had a hard time understanding what you meant by some of your sentences, but I'll try to answer. The capitalist class does not have any "wiggle room" if it wants to stay capitalist. Yes, they can do very "morally" good things like charity, but that is often merely to soothe the guilt of exploiting. Norwegian and swedish capitalists are more "fluffy" because of norwegian and swedish workers' struggle. They didn't chose to be this way, they had to in order keep the people from revolting.

[marsCubed]

@asnanior lovely little self consistent argument you have there.

Doesn't actually sound much like Norway or Sweden though.

They are the most equal societies in the world, the best educated too.

top degree in Norway is social work.

this kind of model is very attractive to 'nice' corps.

If you aren't seeing this then you won't get the easy victories against the nastiest corps now.

It fascinates me how Luther used a church to defeat a church.

The nasty stuff is easy to pull down by comparison.

[asnanior]

Informal fallacy; red herring. Feel free to look it up. The society is not the capitalists inhabiting it. We here in Sweden might have nicer rules, which the workers of the 20th century had to fight for, but the single most exploiting relationship still exists here: We have to sell our work power in order to survive. Nasty corporations will be replaced by other nasty corporations. Nice ones will have to become less nice eventually, or they will disappear when the nasty ones take over the market.

[marsCubed]

@asnanior I agree. But Sweden's and Norway's social investments and relative equality are very real.

They were fought for by workers

others in more miserable conditions are inspired.

If you say others should not push their own bosses towards such initiatives then you are barking empty dogmas.

Sweden and Norway give a contrast which exposes corps in other states as awful failures in comparison.

Sweden is not perfect, But it challenges concepts of Lasses fair' for American workers especially.

[tatamtatam1]

thanks a lot for uploading!