Russ Feingold on Atlas Shrugged and Wisconsin

[streit2909]

This response shows a complete and total misunderstanding of the book and its author.

[MrLesondak]

To those of you who are holding up unrestrained, free market capitalism as the ideal economic system, may I recommend reading "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair. Unless you're descended from an endless line of grotesquely privileged  aristocrats, you should be kissing the feet of the progressives who kept fingers out of your packaged beef and looked out for the unprofitable interests of the destitute.

[booley]

@MrLesondak Alas we both knwo they won't.

Atlas Shrugged fits what they want to believe. The Jungle does not.

Just like how as much as the tea baggers said they hated the corporate bail outs, they also voted out the guys who tried to make such bail outs not be needed again when ever they could.

The whole things is a huge astro turf and the Randians are just another group of useful idiots.

[jamo387]

Glad Russ is gone. He sounds like a simpleton.

[klg1956]

Russ Feingold never read Atlas Shrugged. If he did he was high. Get rid of the regulations in his state and maybe companies would stay. I think I know what the Dems strategy is. Kill all work, get everyone on unemployment, blame everybody else...that's how the Dem's rule, correct? Just ask Andrew Cuomo who single handedly wrecked our lending institutions by suing them to ledn and then turned around and blamed them. That's what Dems do, they grow weeds so they can pull them.

[booley]

@klg1956 You know there are countries that have done that.

Like Bangladesh. Which recently had a fire where workers were leaping to their deaths because they had been locked into the factory.

So lest be honest about what your pro business environment would look like.

What gets me if libertarians keep action as if these ideas have never been tried before and all the "regulations" they detest just came about one day for no reason... as if out of a vacuum.

[cheeseburger12]

@booley You know, it is so funny how liberals can fail to understand such simple concepts. In a free market, it still won't be legal to chain someone up. That is hardly a voluntary mutual agreement between 2 parties. Oh, and they also believe in the 2nd amendment where people will have guns to defend themselves. That kind of makes it more difficult to chain people up. Whereas some peoples ever increasing rules to force people to do things and not let them defend themselves..

[booley]

@cheeseburger12 Weird I always find it funny how cons who claim to know so much about how a business works seem to fail at basic economics.

Maybe it's because you, unlike me, have never run a business. I cant' say.

Or maybe it's because you never read a history book.

For instance, slave owners defended slavery on large part by property rights. Black people were no more considered an equal party then an ox of a tractor.

And free markets had no problem with this.

[cheeseburger12]

@booley That's funny, I seem to recall a lack of voluntary mutual agreement involved.

[booley]

@cheeseburger12 Oh of course there was mutual agreement. The slaves agreed nto trun away or rebel and the over seers agreed to not whip or kill the slaves.

It's called a choiceless choice.

Just like workers in sweat shops can decide not to work in exploitative conditions. It's just in so doing they also decide to be destitute & homeless.

That's the flaw you seem to not get about your claim. It assumes that 2 parties are on equal terms. not to mention externalities.

[cheeseburger12]

@booley Hey, that is a great point. Maybe Republicans can say women are free to have abortions and then we can sentence them to capital punishment. And they still have free choice. Everybody wins. 

[booley]

@cheeseburger12 Funny story.. that's exactly what the Republican plan for abortions is.

"Sure Roe v Wade hasnt' been over turned. But we want you punished if you use that right"

Seriously, that sound whizzing above your head? It's my point going by.

[cheeseburger12]

@booley Wealth is created dumbass. Being entitled to take something that isn't yours, that is the lib way isn't it? Funny how some people can work their way up from poverty and others just leech of others and whine about how unfair it is that other people are richer. I bet you would get along great with my lazy, useless stepfather who was content to live on welfare and not work. But I should be honored to pay for leeches like him.

[booley]

@cheeseburger12 Wealth can only be create din an environment that supports it dumbass.

No roads & no goods can be shipped. No public education & not enough educated workers. No police & security costs become prohibitive.

I own my own business & I couldnt have done it without gov. Pell grants to GI bill to rural electrification & the internet

IF taxation is theft, I notice you and other cons have no problems being accessories to theft

Either you guys ar e lying hypocrites or you're just lying

[cheeseburger12]

@booley "No roads & no goods can be shipped. No public education & not enough educated workers. No police & security costs become prohibitive." Zero all of these out of the federal budget (and lets zero out the military stuff also). Guess what, our spending would still be out of control. Because all of that is about 30% of the federal budget. 

[booley]

@cheeseburger12 Oh so you concede that the private sector can't produce wealth without an infratsructure created by the public sector.

And it's not even 30%. The gov has been ignoring infrastructure and public investments for the most part since Reagan in favor of tax cuts and military spending.

It's not just the spending. We also let the revenues drop in favor of some mythical trickle down theory.

[cheeseburger12]

@booley Oh please, I don't want someone else's money and would be happy to cut corporate welfare and farm subsides, to the bone. But I am forced to vote for the one who will steal from me least. And I know that isn't you.

[booley]

@cheeseburger12 Funny you are certainly happy using the benefits provided by "other people's money"

Again, get a damn dictionary. It's not stealing if you get something back. All your doing is voting into office people who wont' use that money for anyone's benefit but their own.

[cheeseburger12]

@booley And one should be honored to pay for leeches like the teachers unions in the New York City rubber rooms that waste millions of dollars a year that are supposed to go to education. And if one decided to send their kid to a private school or homeschool, they still get to pay for the hundreds of leeching teachers. Because people like you care more about taking money from people who earn it then actually helping those in need.

[booley]

@cheeseburger12 "And one should be honored to pay for leeches like the teachers unions ......"

Again funny story... those millions are largely going to charter schools. You know the schools that were supposed to introduce a business element into the school system and make them better? Except they arent' any better & are often worse.

So instead of fixing bad schools, cons have just made them worse in favor or a system that doesnt' work.

Good Job!

[cheeseburger12]

@booley Oh...the millions of dollars being spent on public school teachers not being fired but still being paid is the fault of charter schools. Not.  Charter schools are so bad parents are trying so hard to get into them.

[booley]

@cheeseburger12 that's not what I said.

Funds that should be going to public schools are instead going to charter schools which dont' even do any better job (and many times do worse)

Please try to follow along.

[booley]

@cheeseburger12 BTW, should I also point out how states with weak unions and right to work" laws have lower wages then those with unions?

Or that Finland, which has a very powerful teacher's union is also ranked among the best educational systems?

Nah, facts would just get in your way.

[cheeseburger12]

@booley Does New York City have a strong teachers union with hundreds of teachers that can't be fired? Supposedly they were being eliminated in 2010 (I'd like to see the evidence of fired teachers) - at the time they were about 550 costing $30 million a year. I guess New York needs to raise more taxes on the rich to help educate the poor.

[booley]

@booley Anyway, probably not going to keep responding to you.

For one I have work to do.

For another you simply dont' give a shit what the facts are. Rather then conforming your opinions to reality, you expect reality to conform to your beliefs and ignore any time that doesn't happen.

I already know that people like you are the economic equivalent of creationists. Since you dont have to be correct in your posts, you can simply deluge this thread with bull shit.

[booley]

@cheeseburger12 Indeed, from what we can see from the con's "free market" a pattern emerges.

The rules get loosened & the referee that is the gov gets removed or played. The most powerful get more power to remake the market the way they want at every one else's expense. And the rest of us have less and less choice but to go along. (since you cant' eat principles) & so the free market destroys itself.

The claim that this isnt' really the "free market" by you guys is getting more and more lame.

[cheeseburger12]

@booley The powerful get more powerful. Except they also get less powerful. Remember when SEARS used to be a big deal? KMART used to be a big deal? GM had lots of power and both political parties trying to bail it out, but the market will still tear it down because they stopped being the best at making a product people wanted at a price they were willing to pay.

[booley]

@cheeseburger12 "Except they also get less powerful. "

and yet the power of corporations over all has grown at the expense of everyone else.

And did you forget lots of those companies stopped existing because they were bought up by other larger companies? I guess you did.

You guys keep saying how the market will balence itself out through competition if left alone. But whenever we deregulate, one of the first things that happens is we get closer to monopolies.

[cheeseburger12]

@booley Lots of those companies get bought up because they don;t do so well. Oh look, there are lots of small start up businesses all over. If we get monopolies in a free market, it is because a business (like Walmart) is so successful "everybody" goes there to buy willingly. So the govt has to step in and raise their costs so enough people will shop somewhere else.

[booley]

@cheeseburger12 "Lots of those companies get bought up because they don;t do so well.:

Maybe some but most are doing quite well. think about it, why would a corp buy a failing company that will probably lose it money?

& any start ups can't make up for the conglomeration that occurs when an industry deregulates. The number of media companies for instance has only decreased.

& then after saying how the free market stops monopolies, you add how the free market is ok with monopolies

[booley]

@cheeseburger12 and you still have not explained how the free market would stop exploitation and be against slavery.

That was what you wanted me to believe, right?

Well how can that happen if the free market not only allows but encourages that at the parties aren't on an equal footing?

[cheeseburger12]

@booley And your one to talk about people having less choice to go along seeing as how libs love taking money straight from my paycheck. And it looks to me like your runaway big govt will destroy itself, because I don't care what tax rates you set, your not going to be able to take in enough to pay for all the spending you want. Social security, meidcare, and meidcaid are almost 50% of federal spending and climbing.

[booley]

@cheeseburger12 Oh NOES you get money taken otu of your pay check. and you get nothign back fo rit. Except a military that protects you, teachers to educate your kids, roads, schools, clean air and water and about a thousand other services.

I've said it before.. freedom isn't free.

But hey I am not against cutting spending. Lets start with the trillions in defense contracts we dont' need & all those corporate subsidies.

[booley]

@cheeseburger12 Oh and for all the talk about smaller gov, somehow whenever you guys elect conservatives, it only continues to grow.

I know, no true scotsman and all that...

[klg1956]

If you don't get yourself straight and working, how can you ever help anybody else?

[g8186]

Russ Feingold actually WANTED this published? What a blithering idiot! It's such utter cluelessness that the cheeseheads finally comprehended that got him voted out of office.

[booley]

@g8186 They're sure regretting it now.

[jscottupton]

I didn't realize until now how ignorant Feingold is.

[billyboy647]

Gee, I thought the press has the role of exposing and investigating--not cheerleading. What happened to the press exposing crooked, on-the-take politicians? What an embarrassing, pathetic exchange between the parasite & the parasitic enabler. How do they justify wasting the time of We the People with this cock & bull, pimp & ho exchange? They must think we're stupid. Can you say "Symbiosis made in Hell?" Why don't these crap heads go back to the Soviet Union their warped ideology came from?

[billyboy647]

Parasitic, collectivist politicians like Russ Feingold is the very cause of joblessness and the increase of poverty. It is his tax and regulatory policies that have made America the worse nation in the world to do business. Who can blame manufacturers for leaving? Only a fool lives and works to pay taxes. Individuals do as much as factories when they move from Taxconsin to Texas--Feingold the parasite, not factories, is the problem!

[billyboy647]

Class warfare presents a false dichotomy. The real question is "what is the role of government?" Do we want a slave society where elitist politicians are the slave makers, taking from the unfavored and giving to the favored in order to buy votes. (That's called stealing). Feingold fails to point out that it is HIS policies that drive companies away to other countries. Individuals do the same when they move from high to low tax states. Only the slave minded live and work to pay taxes.

[yousmokecrackers]

Atlas Shrugged movie trailer on youtube

[kudzuATL]

Communism is a failed system. Face it. You don't work. You don't eat.



[kudzuATL]

Communism is a failed system. Face it. You don't work. You don't eat.

[TonySopr2]

Also, it's worth noting that Johnson's answer to this question was essentially that taxing the top 5% would be an awful idea because they employ 25% of the jobs - and that they, the 25% minority, are "the" engine to the economy. Feingold was correct in saying that most jobs are created from middle class people.

[plooger]

@TonySopr2 If they want to push this idea of job creators, then we need to start pushing policies that punish the job creators when they're not creating enough jobs *in this country*.

[saadasim]

Comparing Johnson to Feingold is is like comparing Bush to Clinton.

One is a coattail businessman, the other went to law school and paid for it.

Both businessmen manipulated the government to get federal aid to keep their businesses afloat.

Clinton slowly was able to balance the budget.

Bush/Cheney blew the budget for years to come, because "deficits didn't matter."

[w900L]

Brilliant, sharp, witty, typical, emotional, feel good answer by another liberal. Put it on a bumper sticker, because that's the only place it works.

[Maxwedge12000]

Russ is a career politician.  I hope the people send him packing so he has to get a real job.

[TonySopr2]

@Maxwedge12000 That's a pretty dumb label. Obviously, the people in Wisconsin have trusted him enough with being their senator that they voted him in office three times.

[Maxwedge12000]

@TonySopr2 Indeed, it is my hope the majority of voters finally see that the career politicians and lawyers are the problem and send feingold packing for he is both.

[TonySopr2]

@Maxwedge12000 It depends on what side of the spectrum said lawyer is on. He's done quite well with his terms, and i can clearly call him the most level headed senator in Congress. He has an everyman approach, and I respect that about him. He deserves a fourth term.

[Wolfiemouse]

Vote, vote, vote. Put it in D and vote! No reverse. Been there done that.

[wrxwagon100]

Russ is one of the few Dems NOT afraid to say and do what's right, even if that means that yes, he has to tell a bunch of greedy Repugs that they're acting in their own self-interests and don't give a damn about anyone else.

[plooger]

@wrxwagon100 Sadly, Russ was generally more polite than that.

[nwguys]

Why don't politicians like Feingold, Kucinich, Sanders (I know he's an Indie / Socialist) get more support from their party or progressives in general? People like Russ and the others i mentioned are marginalized in favor of the Bluedog Dems...

Simply pathetic!

[60SecondMartian]

@nwguys Because, I hate to admit it, Democrats are cowards. They are afraid of how their decisions will be spun by the press. Republicans deny they said things, even when presented with themselves saying it, and their followers believe them! Now THAT'S leadership. Scary, dangerous leadership.

[SteelMartini]

@nwguys Probably the same reason the establisment ignores Ron Paul. I think they are scared.

[nwguys]

@SteelMartini You could say that about Ron Paul or Dennis Kucinich. In the last Presidential Debates (when they were allowed to attend), Paul and Kucinich got the greatest reactions from the crowd and those watching. Yet they were marginalized...

[SteelMartini]

@nwguys "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate. " Chomsky. I think it applies to politics too.

[hitch4645]

@nwguys I agree that the party has done nothing, but there are plenty of progressive groups out there putting in work for Feingold

[nwguys]

@hitch4645 Yes, I agree. The problem is the leaders of the D. Party. They should be on the attack touting their accomplishments. Holding all hypocrites in office to what they say and what they actually do. Feingold has at least backed up what he's said with action. I would like to see the same from the leadership of his party (across the board).

[NYerintransit]

@nwguys Maybe because only blue dog Democrats have something to offer to a broad base of constituencies.

[plooger]

@NYerintransit Agreed, so long as "broad base of constituencies" is interpreted as both large and small, American *and* international corporations.

[NYerintransit]

@plooger You make it sound like a bad thing.

[plooger]

@nwguys Campaign finance. Russ *does* get support, just not corporate dollar$, and post-Citizens United he was put at an even greater disadvantage.

But let's be honest, it's not like the relative qualities/policies of these two candidates were a mystery. The people of Wisconsin voted, and now, unfortunately, we all get to live with the consequences.

[SubstancePrime]

@nwguys

The democratic party isn't interested in anything that challenges the 'conventional wisdom' of Washington.

And yes, it's pathetic.

[booley]

@nwguys welllll... if I had ot hazard a guess, blue dog dems have the support of big corporations and those that benefit from the status quo.

So a blue dog dem has an advantage coming right out the gate while a progressive has to yell just to get a word in edge wise.

[BobSoperJr]

Brilliant answer. Well said, Sen. Feingold.