Calvinism/Doctrines of Grace/Reformed Theology are from the pit of Hell..they are heresies that make God Almighty a sinner and not just a sinner but the Author of ALL sin.
Every child raped..every women beaten..every person murdered..every deceitful business deal...every cruelty man has done, was authored by God. It is a blasphemous false religion and many otherwise fine Bible teachers are promoting it today. MacArthur, Sproul, Piper, are some of them. Flee from Calvinism. Repent of Calvinism!
If this is the case then How do the elect know if their saved? They have no assurance of salvation since God decides who's saved. They can't be sure if they are God's elect.
An excellent video explaining the truth of the gospel. Thank you for posting this. If someone watching this doesn't agree with this I'd suggest that they read the Book of John and the Book of Romans. God is sovereign in all things and ALL things work together for those who love God. Those who love God love Him because He loved us first.
@dontbreakin You only think that because you are only familiar with Protestant fundamentalists' beliefs. You should study the beliefs of traditional Christianity. It makes a lot more sense.
@TheKJVberean Without the Reformers and their theology, we would all be Catholic today and would not even read the Bible for ourselves. Apparently you think the only people who ever knew the gospel were Jesus and you. How sad.
With either doctrine, Arminianism or Calvinism, some people are still lost. The big difference between the two is one says that humans decides on who is lost, the other one says that God decides. Somehow, to humans, it sounds more "fair" if humans get to choose their own destiny rather than having God decide it. Jesus, speaking to unbelievers, said, "you do not believe because you are not my sheep". - John 10, verse 26. His sheep believe. All others don't believe. It's as simple as that.
Your videos on Calvinism are EXCELLENT.And I love how you expose how people try to excuse sinning away with eternal security. The truth is that man was originally created in the image of God. God can choose, thus man can choose. That program(choice) was passed down through all of man kind even after the all, thus man has a choice. Just like the desire to have a mate was passed down through all of man kind. Anyways, love the videos, keep up the excellent work.
your calvinist doctrine of complete control by God over EVERYTHING could cause ANOMIE via SUBJECTIVE MORALITY. I say fuck calvinism. I AM THE AUTHOR OF MY MEANING
Why can't God just have saved everybody, but not all will believe this and be saved? Its a paradox and it devastates our logic but so does the Trinity and the two natures of Christ? How did Adam and Eve (who perfectly feared, loved, and trusted in God) fall in the first place? The real problem with Calvinism is that it tries to explain all of this instead of just confessing what the Bible says.
Excuse me, but can you elaborate or at least make your comment edifying to others? That is not an entertainment video, you know. As for the doctrine that places the burden of salvation on man's shoulders, it makes Christ but half a savior, a weak deity that is unable to save those whom he loves. Can you accept the one who forms light and creates darkness, the Holy Lord that killed thousands without blame, from whom we receive all good and evil? Either way, that is the God of the Bible.
Sure, it makes sense that they would require people to return to their birthplace for the census at a certain time. you just don't believe the scriptures and that's ok with me. As a 5 pt. Calvinist I understand that some people are chosen to believe and others are passed over and reject the gospel and cannot believe unless God chooses to have mercy on them and give them the gift of faith. You do not choose God; God chooses you.
Isn't it interesting that everything that happens in our everyday reality, happens exactly as we'd expect it to in a world without any gods or magical beings?
But tell me this. Since you all don't believe your god is evil, what act could god possibly do, that you "would" consider evil?
I forgot to ask!! Do Calvinists deny the reality of Evolution too? Do they believe that the Earth id only about 6K yrs old? And do they believe that man and all animals were created at one time, fully formed.
If y'all say yes to these questions...you've made my day, cuz I can prove Evolution to you, without a doubt!
U still don't get it! I shouldn't be in a position of "needing" to be saved!!! And, I'm certainly not!.
It's interesting that you'd presume to know that a god exists, and then exactly what he/it wants! I'd like to know what convinces you'd know this? And please don't say the bible bcuz you'd be on some seriously shaky ground. This is why those 33,820 diff. Xian denominations exist!
Again, you cannot demonstrate a single thing U claim.
@Cootabux LOL, you can't prove evolution because according to your experts, evolution occurs over millions of years. As to your questions, I am a 5 pt. Calvinist and I strongly disagree with the false theory of evolution. First off, a casual view of the theory would reveal that there are no living links between chimps and humans. Why did chimps survive and the links not survive? LOL you and your silly desperate attempt to explain how many arrived on Earth. You just can't accept the truth.
All that you have demonstrated here is that you don't even understand the simplest basics of the theory of evolution, a theory for which there is more scientific evidence out there than for just about any other. However, it takes more than a 300 chars youtube comment to explain, so go and watch /watch?v=w1m4mATYoig
If you really have to deny hard scientific facts to justify your belief, then this shows that your belief is not only amoral but also very likely false.
You cannot prove evolution in a science lab. Even Darwin admitted that if the missing links were never found then his theory didn't hold up. God created all life, all of the various forms of life. We didn't "evolve" . As I've said many times, if the chimps survived, and we survived, then why haven't all of the various links survived? You atheists can't answer that one can you?
Please go to /watch?v=w1m4mATYoig to see plenty of proof for evolution. There is a reason why academia universally accepts evolution and rejects creation. Because there is evidence, tons of evidence from a multitude of disciplines.
Why should there be any living links between Chimps and humans? Can you elaborate? 99% of all species that ever lived, are extinct. Humans and chimps are extremely close relatives. Why should there be closer ones? This is just arbitrary.
@dasGagaTier We are not relatives of chimps or any other monkey. The only thing we share is the same great creator who designed and created both as well as millions of other very distinct life forms. The variation and complexity of different creatures is evidence that we have a glorious God that can do anything and make anything. I cannot prove you're wrong and you cannot prove that God didn't create every living thing as they are.
So your argument that there should be closer living relatives has nothing to support it, right? Well I concur with you that there is no evidence at all for creation, however there are tons of evidence for evolution. The simplest prediction which is 100% confirmed by the findings is that life evolved from simpler to more complex forms. The fossil record entirely confirms this. But there are tons of other proofs, see /watch?v=w1m4mATYoig
@dasGagaTier Actually, I didn't say that there is no evidence for "creation". I said that you can't prove that God didn't create it all. I also said that I can't prove to you that God did it other than the fact that the creation is here as we see it and humans didn't create it. Someone had to have created it and I believe that someone is the ruler of the universe and sovereign in his power to keep it all just as it is. You offer no alternative to the explanation that God did it.
So, then - what /is/ your evidence for creation? You know, there is tons of evidence for evolution, i.e. that species did not come into existence abruptly in their present shape but evolved over time. There is conclusive evidence from a variety of disciplines that this is the case. In addition, there is plenty of evidence that we have not been "designed", because we have many properties which are nonsensical and detrimental but are perfectly explained by evolution.
@dasGagaTier We were not designed? LOL, you aren't stupid are you? the human body is a masterpiece of design, how the various systems work together to provide life to the body; the blood circulation system, the nerve system, the muscles, the bone structure as the foundation for which everything else is added to. Even if there was nothing else in existence, the awesome complexity of the human body IS evidence that it was designed and created by a being of superior intelligence.
No, we were not designed, else the designer would have been exceptionally incapable. Your "masterpiece of design" is actually full of grotesque flaws, which are explicable only through its evolutionary history. Ever thought about why billions of humans have spine pains? Because the spine was not "designed" to be erect, it evolved in tetrapods. An actual designer would not have rotated something by 90% which was designed to work horizontally.
@dasGagaTier People do back pain to themselves usually by trying to lift heavy things that they shouldn't. Yes, the human body can have problems but overall it is well made. The faxct that we see in 3 dimensions is a miracle in intself. scientists are just now starting to try to build 3-D TVs but we've had 3 D vision for generations because God is awesome and wanted us to see better. Such perfection doesn't evolve from lesser designs.
the point is not only that the human body has problems, but that these problems are well explained by its evolutionary history, while they remain mysterious, if we assume that we have been created by a perfect designer. The eye is another case in point: It has a blind spot, it has to wiggle all the time, else we would not see anything, the image it produces it upside down etc.pp. However, the evolution of the eye is well understood, so the flaws are just what we expect.
@NewDirection4us "People do back pain to themselves usually by trying to lift heavy things that they shouldn't." So you conveniently overlooked the actual argument: Other mammals which have a very similar spine do not have these issues, because their spines are oriented horizontally. If you take such a spine and rotate it by 90 degrees, you ask for trouble, the trouble we humans have. Of course, some millions of years of evolution will partly compensate this, but flaws will always remain.
@dasGagaTier Animals are given instinct which tells them what they can and can't do. People are more intelligent than any animal and we should know better than to hurt our backs. People do all kinds of crazy things, drugs, etc. then want to blame God when they have deformed babies or get a hurt back. We didn't "evolve" over a million years either. the world's population has gone from 3 billion to 6 billion in the last fifty years. The earth would have far more people if that were true.
According to your theory, only bad people should suffer from design flaws. You know that reality is different. Do only bad peopled get prostate troubles when they pass their 50s?
Even human misbehaviour is best explained by our evolutionary history. Why do we ingest too much fat and sugar and have too little physical exercise? Because for most of our history, these substances were rare, and needless physical exercise was a needless waste of energy. (continued)
[continuation, please note my other comment, too!] The argument from population growth has been proposed by people who are clueless about actual population dynamics. Growth rate depends on environmental conditions. There has not been steady growth for most history, there were countless mass extinctions. At one time, humanity was reduced to 10,000 people. Details here: /watch?v=w5eFM6C3lfc Arguing against evolution you are bound to loose, there is simply too much evidence.
I have already added several comments regarding you arguments, however, there is one more issue where I would really like your response, and I have asked it four or five times now: How do you establish that the bible is the word of God? What is the evidence? Especially when there are many other holy books making similar claims? What is there to convince me that the bible is true and the others are fake? Where is the evidence of divine inspiration?
@dasGagaTier I believe that one thing sets the Holy Bible apart from other "Holy Books" is that the prophecies in the old testament have either come true already or will come true at some point in the future. It had to have been written by people inspired by god who knows the beginning to end of this age. Try googling fulfilled prophecies from the old testament to learn more. Jesus also testifies to the truth and no one in any other book has done what they reported that he did.
So are fulfilled prophecies the best evidence you have? In that case I am not impressed, because the new testament is full with references to alleged prophecies, which are either nowhere to be found in the OT (e.g. "he will be called a nazarene") or are not actually fulfilled (Jesus is never referred to as "Immanuel") or which are not actually messianic prophecies.
So what fulfilled prophecy is there that should really convince me?
@dasGagaTier I really don't have time to go through it all. I'd suggest that you google fulfilled prophecies of the old testament. Jesus coming is a fulfillment from old testament. If you study it you will discover the truth but you must keep ahn open mind and rebuke Satan who wants to control you. If you seek God you will find him. You either follow Christ or you follow Satan, there is no other way.
I am not suggesting that you have to "go through it all", but if the prophecies are what gives you assurance that the bible is indeed the authentic and error-free word of God, then you should be able to name but two or three examples.
Actually, I find it slightly amusing that you warn me of "Satan". I thought you are a 5 point Calvinist, believing in the absolute sovereignty of God. That kind of rules out Satan doing anything, which is not decreed by God, doesn't it?
@dasGagaTier i'll go one more round with you then you can have the last word. Many of the prophecies in the old testament have come true already, many fulfilled in Jesus. Check them out. Even if there were no prophecies it would not affect my faith as that is a gift from God. Yes, I am a Calvinist and you are either saved or not saved, however, even saved people can be led astray under Satan until their appointed time of conversion when the Holy Spirit enters us. And yes God is sovereign.
@NewDirection4us I don't see the utility of another round, when you don't actually provide evidence. You obviously *believe* that prophecies have been fulfilled, but unless you present facts, this belief has little relevance for anyone else. So what remains is that you have faith that Calvinism is true. So what? Muslims have faith that Islam is true, Jews believe in Judaism. How can you ever know for sure that you are right and it is not just your Satan manipulating you? See where this leads?
@dasGagaTier Old testament Book of Micah, chapter 5, verse 1 & 2 ...The messiah would be born in Bethlehem.... later, Jesus was in fact born in Bethlehem. Isiah, 53rd chapter, Says Jesus would be rejected... many years later Jesus was rejected and crucified by Romans and Jewish leaders. In the new testament, Jesus tells his disciple Peter that Peter will deny he knows Jesus three times before the rooster crows. Later, Peter does in fact deny Jesus and a rooster crows after the 3rd time.
Isaiah 53 is not about the Messiah. It is one of the four Servant Songs, and the servant is repeatedly identified as Israel, see e.g. Isaiah 49:3. Regarding Micah: The birth narrative in Luke is likely a fabrication, produced specifically to match Micah. A census where everyone has to return to their birthplace would be nonsensical and there is no historical record of any. Regarding Peter and the cock - sorry, but this is within one narrative, likely an embellishment.
I have been investing some time in this. My conclusion is: There is simply no prediction of a virgin-born messiah, who is crucified and resurrected anywhere in the Hebrew bible. The Messiah is never identified as incarnation of God, and he is expected to complete his mission in a single lifetime, i.e. restore the glory of Israel and bring world peace, rather than dying and maybe returning millennia later. There is a reason, why Judaism never considered Jesus the Messiah.
The fact that we are here proves only one thing: that we are here. It says absolutely nothing about how we got here. Even if one accepts an intelligent cause as likely (again, without evidence), you have no way of making any claims about the properties of this cause, and, evidently, you have not explained where it came from. So this gets you as far as Deism at best. And that have to deny science to defend your faith does not make it more likely to be true. quite the oppsite
@dasGagaTier The Holy Bible explains a lot of it. God has ALWAYS existed, therefore God was not created. He is the creator of all that we see in our universe. He is the source of all life and knowledge, and especially all that is good. Evil people do not have God in them. In fact, Jesus calls them children of the Devil. Children of the devil cannot understand the ways of God because they serve Satan and Satan has blinded them to the truth. The Bible says that the evil cannot know God.
The bible does not really say anything of God's existence prior to the creation event. It does not at explain anything, it just asserts. And the God character in the bible is far from unchanging or contradiction-free. But that's not my point. My point is, that at least a literal reading of the bible gets you into massive conflict with the scientific evidence we have. I feel, this does not support the idea that it was inspired by the creator of the universe.
@dasGagaTier If there is a God then wouldn't it make sense that he would have enough power to influence people what to write in his word to mankind? the trouble with some of you is that you have too small a view of God. God is above all. He rules the universe from the spinning of the planets to their orbits in space. what else do you think keeps the planets so precise? You can say gravity, but gravity is a force and God controls all forces.
"If there is a God then wouldn't it make sense that he would have enough power to influence people what to write in his word to mankind? "
Sure this would make sense. The trouble with the existing holy books including the bible is, however, is that they do no display any signs of divine inspiration. The picture they paint of the earth, the universe reflects the cosmovision of ignorant humans, not of an all-knowing divine being.
@NewDirection4us "You can say gravity, but gravity is a force and God controls all forces. "
Well, this may be what you believe, but it clearly does not constitute evidence, because it has no additional explanatory value. The laws of nature suffice to explain these phenomena. Plus, there is even less evidence, that the forces of nature are controlled by any /particular/ deity. How do you know it is not Shiva, Thor or Huitzlipochli who does all the controlling?
@dasGagaTier god has put all of the laws of nature into place and he maintains them at all times unless he wants to override them if he so chooses. I know it is the God of the Bible, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, that are in command of all things in the universe. every atom is under God's authority. Even Satan, the devil, can do only what God allows him to do. God is sovereign in all things.
"I know it is the God of the Bible, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, that are in command of all things in the universe. every atom is under God's authority. "
How do you *know* these things? What is your evidence? Can you demonstrate that your claim is true?
@dasGagaTier How do I know, because the Bible says so and the Bible is the inspired word of God. also, all of the evidence of creation is testamony to the creator. You may not see it because you are blinded by Satan, the devil.
"all of the evidence of creation is testamony to the creator."
Yes, if we had actual evidence of a creation event, this would be strong evidence for a creator, however, can you please stop dodging the question: What evidence *is there* for creation?
There is lots of verifiable scientific evidence that we were not created but we emerged over time. I don't know of any scientific evidence for creation.
@dasGagaTier The Holy Bible is the evidence. It is the word of God and tells all about his creating the Earth and universe. you should try reading it some instead of just science books. Humans really don't know much. All of the knowledge of all humans combined is far less than 1 percent of the knowledge that God knows. Scientists are ignorant compared to God.
[sigh!] So how do you establish that the bible is the word of God? Actually if you read the bible it is a collection of works by human writers from different times,with very different agendas and often mutually incompatible claims. Hint: On what day did Jesus die? If this is the word of God, how could God get so many things wrong?
I asked you the question in my previous comment, you did not answer, so: How do you establish that the bible is the word of God?
@dasGagaTier God is in control of all things, so if God wants to reveal truth to his people then he does it through his writers that he he has inspired through the holy spirit. In other words, god wants something in the Bible then God makes sure that it's in there. I think God can handle that if he can keep the Earth rotating so precisely and stable.
It is really funny how these Calvinists on the one hand claim that God is "absolutely sovereign", but that does not keep them from declaring what God "must" do ( 1:33 ) "God must punish evil" etc pp. Also the sentence "God hates sin" makes no sense whatsoever, two senstences after making clear that God is in absolute control, i.e. he is also causing sin to happen.
Are they any different than their god psychologically?
Yes, it fails to make any rational sense on a number of levels. How can they possibly rationalize all of this? That's why I was pressing 'rofyle' to answer your questions.
To me, it's not just a moral dilemma for them, but also in how they see justice in this god's intent (which u just reiterated).
Immoral, irrational, and just plain nonsensical.
I want to get this in quickly. In a minute, I have to get back to work.
Well,think what you want,but God doesn't answer every prayer with a yes.The apostle Paul prayed for God to remove some sort of problem that he was having and God said NO,my grace is sufficient.Again,God does not answer all our prayers with a YES,YOU'RE JUST WRONG.
"God does not answer all our prayers with a YES,YOU'RE JUST WRONG."
Yet, scripture tells us that god "will" answer our prayers, no conditions attached, as long as we pray as instructed. I can think of 4 or 5 verses that make god answering prayer very clear, yet I haven't seen any answered. I didn't see any answered in Nam, nor did I see an entire congregation's intercessory prayer answered, when I watched a 7 yr old little girl die an agonizing death from Bone Cancer (I've seen many).
It's not what I think, it's what your scripture says. Counter those 5 verses in the NT.
Bcuz you say I'm wrong, certainly doesn't make it so, no matter how much you wish it to be. And I got news for you, you have no idea what Paul said or did!
But lets say what you claim is true, then why is it I haven't seen "any" prayer answered, and I'm not referring to my own?
Why don't U take my prayer challenge? I made it 3 yrs ago to all YT Xians. I haven't had one taker yet....wonder why?
If u say u get your moral compass from your god's word, then I say u are either mistaken, or lying!
You get your morals from the same place we atheists do...ourselves. We have developed our morals as a social society as we evolved! It's not hard at all to figure this out. We need no magical mandate, but if you're going to claim one, at least find a better source than scripture, which gives us a hypocritical dictator.
BTW, how many of u know the origins of Judaism. U should, it's your foundation.
"If u say u get your moral compass from your god's word, then I say u are either mistaken, or lying!"
I think that the moral compass of Calvinists is indeed configured by what they conceive to be God's word. They believe that it is morally just and "holy" to torture someone eternally, just because you can and for the sole purpose of showing that you are the boss. It is hard to think of any non-religious source suitable of justifying such a totally depraved morality..
I'm only hearing about Calvinists for the 1st time, several days ago. (My job doesn't give the time I used to have). Anyway, I was stunned to hear what they believe, and there's no questions that what you say is true, but what I'm referring to are Xians in general who make the claim that they get their morals from god, yet they don't stone unruly children, force women to marry their rapist, etc. In other words, they cherry pick their rules/commandments as they see fit. In that
respect, they don't follow god's morality as they claim. That was the point I was making.
What Calvinists do is interpret scripture as they see fit & in such an extreme manor. They also do not follow their god's laws to the T. See what I'm getting at?
What is so incredible about Calvinists is how they can reconcile in their minds, this god they see as glorious and wonderful. He fits the Psychopath profile more-so than any human ever could! They worship a tyrannical monster!
But this says more than a certain denomination of Xians r extremists. To me, it says that these people lost a part of their humanity in totally submitting to such a deity. They have no problem in accepting a Psychopath as their god, 4 which they'd likely do anything to please! They dont agree with civilized man's concept of morality.
They couldn't care less about their fellow man & what this monster plans to do. They only care 2 B loyal to it so they will be saved, they think!
Go back & read Revelation. Read about the suffering jesus wants to cause man. Why? He just wants to torture man, just to cause suffering.
In order for u to submit to such a being, u all have to have lost much of your human decency, if u ever had any. You are willing to do this bcuz U are selfish people. U only care about being on the winning side, regardless of your god's sadistic, evil deeds.
Ever consider that you're being tested to see what you value most...loyalty or love for fellow humans?
@Cootabux My love is first and foremost given to my God,what He decides to do with His creation is none of my business.Lost people have absolutely know clue about God,all His ways are righteous,not popular with atheists,but righteous and good
So you think that eternal torment is just fine? What shocks me the most, not only about Calvinists but about all Christians who believe in eternal hell is their complete lack of compassion.
According to your logic, parents should have the right to torture their children, after all they are theirs. Might makes right.
Of course, in the times when the books of the bible were written, torture was still fully acceptable. Somehow, religion seems to have conserved this barbarity.
How is subjecting your creatures to eternal torture "righteous" or "good". Those things which you say your god does are considered the ultimate evil in any decent human society.
And if you are a Calvinists, you have to believe that god has foreordained everything. i.e. those whom your "righteous" god tortures eternally never even had the slightest chance to escape. How exactly is this "just" or "good", please explain!
My love is first and foremost given to my God,what He decides to do with His creation is none of my business.Lost people have absolutely know clue about God,all His ways are righteous,not popular with atheists,but righteous and good
How does 1 love such a being, unless u r lacking in the morals that civilized man has developed?
That's utter BS! I know more than I want 2 about ur god.
His ways r righteous & good??? R U brain dead? Have u not read the OT?
Maybe this comes from my military service...I don't know, but I've never submitted to a tyrant. I see your god as being psychologically no different than Saddam, except that god was much worse! Saddam wasn't evil enough to be one of god's foot soldiers!
I despise the Saddams of the world, & the only diff. between him & your god is that Yahweh claims to be all powerful, & that he created us. That changes nothing.
U don't love this god. U fear him, & that's the only reason u submit to him!
I have a question, btw, I don't know why so many refuse to answer questions.
Lets try this one;
How was JC's dying for our sins such a big sacrifice? He's god, ain't he? He hangs on a cross 'till he dies. Did he, he's god! He rises from the dead, ascends into heaven, sits at the right hand of....himself, & then he.......rules the universe forever, yay!!
So please tell me, where's the suffering? Where the sacrifice? Now, if he had died and stayed dead, or went to hell & stayed there...then, yes!
There are 33,820 different Xian denominations worldwide. Each denomination is convinced that they have the only true understanding of god's word, and that all other denominations are still in the dark!
You bible has caused this massive confusion among it's adherents...and it only gets worse, bcuz these different groups have never resolved their differences in understanding scripture.
I think your god is having some fun with you! It would certainly fit his psychopathic mentality to do so!
@Cootabux The Bible plainly says that many will turn to doctrines of Demons,fall away from the truth,won't put up with sound doctrine ect.Jesus said many in that day will say Lord ,Lord,have we not DONE all these wonderful things in your name and Jesus will tell them to depart,I never knew you.Notice,Jesus does not call these people liars,He just say He never knew them,not that He used to know them and they lost their salvation.So what's happening now,in these last days,was predicted to happen.
@Cootabux I believe God answers all prayers,He answers YES,NO AND WAIT. I saw God answer one of my prayers YES once,in a Physics defying way ,in just a moment after I prayed,it was truly awesome.
"I believe God answers all prayers,He answers YES,NO AND WAIT."
The bible does not say so. Quite the opposite. It has Jesus assuring believers: "All things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."" (Math 21:22) So there is nothing here about "no" or "wait". According to the Bible, god is to fullfil all requests by believers, without limitations. However, this is obviously not the case. So either Jesus was lying or the biblical god does not exist.
@daGag The Bible tells us that we don't have what we pray for because we ask amiss.There have been many prayers that I prayed that weren't answered yes,and as time passed,I saw that if they would have been answered yes,I would have been in trouble.God knows exactly what we need.When we sin ,we sin against a Holy God,we are rebels against the eternal One.If you threatened to kill me,you probably wouldn't get in trouble,but if you threatened to kill the President you'd spend a lot of time in Jail.
The Bible says something different from what you say: There are numerous passages, where Jesus gives full and unqualified assurance that *every* believer will receive *whatever* he asks for in prayer. There is no qualification of the sort "only if god thinks it is right for you." Nope. So if a believer prays to god to heal their child who is sick with cancer, god should immediately heal them every single time - if the bible is correct. Now, we all know that reality is different...
"Truly, truly, I say to u, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; & greater works than these will he do, b/c I go to the Father. Whatever u ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.
I have 4 more verses.....but they say the same thing!!!
@dasGagaTier Another thing is,God makes the rules and no matter what you or I think, does not make a bit of difference.God's will will be done in all things,all you will be able to do,is what God wants.Someday every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,this includes you too.After that you can curse God for eternity,but it won't make any difference.
"Another thing is,God makes the rules and no matter what you or I think, does not make a bit of difference."
So again, all you have to say is "might makes right".
You did not even attempt to answer my question how it can be considered "just" or "holy" to torture someone for doing what you forced them to do. In any decent society, a person acting like that would be locked away.
Anyway, what is your best piece of evidence that such a god exists?
"Another thing is,God makes the rules and no matter what you or I think, does not make a bit of difference."
First, this god is most probably imaginary, and all that this demonstrates is how bronze age barbaric morals live on in religion. Second, what you say is best summarized as "might makes right".
Torturing others for doing what you forced them to do, will get you locked up in any decent society. However you believe the universe was created by such a psychopath. Can't you see?
@dasGagaTier God doesn't have to force anyone to sin,God just directs where the man goes to sin.Man is like a car stuck in gear and the gas pedal stuck on the floor, always ready to rush into sin full speed.God spends most of His time putting the brakes on man and steering him in the direction that He wants him to go in.Man left to do just as he wants means we would all be destroyed at this time,man would have annihilated himself many times over since his existence if not for God.
When the text of this says, very much in line with Calvinist mainstream, "God is in absolute control, even the mind of man", this clearly implies that everything which comes to pass is controlled by God, from which logically follows that God has the sole responsibility for everything that happens. How, I ask you the nth's time, is it then just to punish anyone else for those things? Dare to answer?
@dasGagaTier Even though God has decreed everything,man still does exactly as his heart most desires.God has not called you to Jesus,so you're like everyone in your situation,you hate God,this is what you most desire,so yeah you're still held responsible because you sin against God with knowledge,knowing that you are a rebel,you can't plead ignorance.
"Even though God has decreed everything,man still does exactly as his heart most desires. (...) so yeah you're still held responsible because you sin against God "
I beg your pardon, but this does not make sense. Do I, does anyone, have free will, thus, the chance to do other than "decreed"? Yes or no? If yes, we are responsible, if not, we are not.
P.S.: I don't "hate" the god Yahwe, just as I don't hate Zeus or Odin. I don't see any evidence either exists.
@dasGagaTier The Universe and all that's in it proves God.You really have to have a boat load of faith to believe that something happened by itself to create everything,when real science says it's impossble.Science says there must be a matter maker,since nothing in our universe can neither create or destroy matter.
What do you mean by "God"? How exactly does the universe prove the God you believe in? How do you know that it was created by one God and not many? How do you show that it was Yahwe and not Lord Krishna? How do you demonstrate that the cause behind the universe is a personal, intelligent being? And how can such a being just exist without requiring a cause? Unless you have good answers to all of the above questions, you have proven nothing at all.
But you have not replied to my simple question above: do you believe that we have the capacity to act differently from what God has decreed? Is everything that happens controlled by God or not? Has God predestined some to heaven and others to damnation or are we judged according to our deeds?
"God doesn't have to force anyone to sin,God just directs where the man goes to sin.Man is like a car stuck in gear and the gas pedal stuck on the floor, always ready to rush into sin full speed"
C'mon dude, now U R just being silly...and quite wrong!
Look, I used to be a very nasty person. I don't hide the fact that I've killed more than my share of human beings, but what changed me was my tradition Indian spiritual teachings & experience, not Xianity.
I'm convinced u r correct in saying god is imaginary! In a way, so is the Judeo-Chriatian religion.
The last piece of historical data that I was able to study, was the Ugaritic Texts. If u haven't studied this yet, please do. But I have the feeling that you already know the subject well.
It explains how Judaism was adopted from older Pantheons. Then the Hebrews, in time, would alter & fabricate their own Elohim, which went from polytheistic to mono, which is what we see today.
@Cootabx You don't understand,salvation is a supernatural act that I can not explain to someone,it has to be experienced.God has answered many of my prayers in the affirmative,but in His time not mine.I believe in God because I was headed out to find a bar from my motel room when I was drawn to read the Bible on the table,after an hour or so of reading,God soundly saved me,that was 16 yrs ago.The only regret I have is that He didn't do it sooner,but He had a reason for waiting that I don't know.
@Cootabux I know you deny anything supernatural,but all these Ghost hunting shows and videos have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that spirits exist.I don't believe they are the ghosts of departed humans,I believe they are demons pretending,but that's beside the point,they do exist.There is so much more evidence for the supernatural than anything an atheist can come up with.Atheists claim Macro-evolution is true and some day they'll have proof of it.
"I know you deny anything supernatural,but all these Ghost hunting shows and videos have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that spirits exist."
As long as you haven't produced actual evidence, it is hard to deny any of it. So, yes, I am actually curious: Can you name any specific piece of evidence proving the existence of the supernatural beyond reasonable doubt? Please provide the exact source. I'd love to check it out!
If I die & then see this exact kind of being, then I'll know I was right! And I'd rather be right & have made my choices for the right reasons, even if this cosmic Tyrant tortures me, I won't kiss his ass, as u will be doing, 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week, for eternity!! And I "will" curse such a demon 4 eternity, if it is 2 B.
But u know what I enjoy now about all this? U don't have the slightest idea of what is going to happen when we die.U wanna think U do! LOLs
"I believe God answers all prayers,He answers YES,NO AND WAIT. I saw God answer one of my prayers YES once,in a Physics defying way ,in just a moment after I prayed,it was truly awesome."
Ha, ha! Sorry, but I was just thinking...why would god help you with such a prayer, while ignoring the prayers of an entire congregation, asking for the healing of a beautiful little angel who was suffering more than any child should?? Why?
The reason all this was written the way it is, is bcuz of man's nature. Early man tried to explain man's good vs. bad, nature. They didn't know about Evolution. And yes, it's a scientific fact and I can prove it to anyone who has an open mind.
Anyway, man's struggle to overcome his animal nature, is what Orig. Sin story was an attempt to explain it.
if I am "wicked" (how exactly do you know? I can't recall meeting you.), then, according to Calvin only because your god decreed it. So in your world (which I hold to be delusional) you are "elect" and I "reprobated", and that for no particular reason. Your god makes you believe and me disbelieve, and then he will punish me for being what he forced me to be. In what universe would acting this way be considered "just"?
Fortunately, there is no reason to believe such a god exists.
Reformed theology holds that God controls everything, he decreed the fall, he decreed man to be sinful. So how would it be just for God to punish people for being what he made them to be? And how can eternal torture be "justice"? Torture is a disgrace, is evil. Eternal punishment is infinitely unjust, eternal torment would be infinite evil. Fortunately, there is no reason to believe that such a god (or any otherr) exists...
@dasGagaTier How is God is to be considered just after having instructed Satan to harm Job, who had done nothing to deserve it? What about in Jesus' case; do you think God was just in instructing His Son to die for sins He did not commit? What about the martyrs, people like Stephen? Is God just in standing idly by and doing nothing to stop the martyrdom of those He says He loves?
In the story of Job, God is depicted as fundamentally unjust, and Job is actually very aware of of that. The interpretation of Jesus' early death as a human sacrifice atoning for the sins of humankind strikes me as patently absurd and is likely a secondary rationalisation of a traumatising event.
However, if the god you believe in has foreordained absolutely everything that happens, then how can punishing any human (soul) for any of these things be just? I'd be very curious to know!
@dasGagaTier Job is aware God is depicted as fundamentally unjust? Perhaps you have never read the first chapter of Job. Pray tell, where was Job to be found in the initial conversation between God and Satan, and precisely what did Job have to contribute to this conversation?
How is God just in instructing His Son to die for sins His Son did not commit?
How is God just in imputing Adam's guilt to all mankind? Everyone is born guilty of a sin they did not commit.
"How is God just in imputing Adam's guilt to all mankind? Everyone is born guilty of a sin they did not commit. "
Well, that's fundamentally unjust and absurd, of course. Under no circumstances would such a thing be morally acceptable, i.e. outside North Korea.
However, Calvinism just pushes the limits even further, by explicitly saying that God has foreordained everything, but still is wrathful at humans and punishes them for doing what he decreed they should do..
@dasGagaTier "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, EVEN OVER THOSE WHO DID NOT SIN BY BREAKING A COMMAND, AS DID ADAM, who was a pattern of the one to come."
Yes I am saying this is absurd. Can you explain by what mechanism I can be guilty of something which I did not do?
Additionally, how can any human be guilty of anything if, as Calvin wants us to believe, anything that ever happened was foreordained by God? Please answer the questions.
What I claim to be has no bearing on the issue, i.e. how randomly penalising some and rewarding others regardless of their merits can be considered just, and how humans can be punishable for acts decreed by god. Still waiting for any sound argument. No, just quoting more absurdities from scripture is not a valid substitute for that.
@dasGagaTier What you claim to be has every bit of bearing on the issue, for if you do not accept Scripture as final authority, then there can be no absolute standard by which we can discuss the issue.
So how does "accepting scripture as the final authority" solve the two logical contradictions at hand, 1. that the doctrine of original sin says that one can be guilty of something one has not done and 2. that according to Calvinism we are punished by God for deeds which he foreordained himself; plus 3. we are punished or rewarded completely regardless of any of our merits ?
@dasGagaTier And there we go. We cannot discuss the issue because there is no absolute standard by which we can agree. Now if you can't accept that, then you have some very deep philosophical and logical flaws that I will not be able to help you with. That aside, I have no interest in gabbing with an Atheist. To be quite blunt, they bore me. However, my friend Chris over at Fivepointbaptist loves to talk to them, so if you're truly interested, then stop over there. Otherwise, yawn.
So I take it that you have no answers to my questions. I wonder how you could ever convert anyone to your denomination, if you cannot even respond to the simplest of reservations one can have against it. I see that the only answer you had to my simple question how one can be guilty of something one has not done is "because the bible says so". I find this intellectually bankrupt. But not only that. It would be easy to find tons of other bible quotes which say the exact opposite.
@dasGagaTier Death was not part of the creation at first,death for man and animals only came after Adam's sin.All men have inherited Adam's sin nature and Adam's death penalty has also been passed down to all people and animals,if this weren't the case,babies would never die before they have actually sinned personally.
Well, 1. of course this is mythology, there is no evidence Adam ever existed. 2. According to "reformed theology" all of this is entirely controlled by God. God "decreed the fall", he intended man to be sinful etc. So it is hard to see where man is to blame, if he is a mere puppet. 3. A "sinful nature" is not the same as guilt. Actually quite the opposite. If we are born with a "sinful nature", the only one to blame for this would be God, the designer, and we would deserve leniency..
@dasGagaTier We are nothing but clay in the potter's hands,and yes,God has decreed all things before He ever created anything,He is playing with a stacked deck of marked cards,but why God has chosen to do what He does,that's another story,that's the secret things of God.
So, in that case, how would the concept of the potter rewarding or punishing the clay make even sense? And, btw, if we all are just robots/puppets, your god must be the loneliest being in the Universe, spending billions of years just with his simulation. Why would he do so? Creating a universe, where every particle and every millisecond is 100% controlled by him would just be 100% pointless....
@dasGagaTier How do you know it would be pointless?Our ways are not God's ways,He has secret things that we have no idea about.In Heaven no one will be able to sin at all,we will all have the mind of Christ ,but while on Earth Jesus is the righteousness of His people.What ever God does,He does to glorify Himself,if God gave anyone else praise He'd be an idolater.
So what could be the point in creating a universe where every single event from beginning to end is already unchangeable predetermined? The reason we run simulations or play games is that we want to learn or be entertained. If nothing unexpected happened, our lives would be pointless. How could this be different for god? And the second part of my question, you conveniently ignored: Why should god punish or reward anyone if we are just his puppets? Let alone punish eternally?
@dasGagaTier Everything God does,He does for His glory.I couldn't begin to give you an answer on why God does things the way He does,those are the secret things of God alone,we are just to have faith that God knows what He's doing.There are things I do sometimes,that I don't even know the reason why I do them,but He does.
So you seem to believe in a god who is utterly incomprehensible and 100% obsessed with his own glory. What makes glory so important? What /is/ glory?
How does eternally punishing your own creatures which have no free will and just act according to the strings you pull add to this glory? Why create them as puppets but at the same time with the ability to suffer? And, finally, if your god is entirely incomprehensible, how do you know about him what you claim to know?
"no one will be able to sin at all, we will all have the mind of Christ."
Then why wouldn't god make this happen now? Why wait? Why waste time on Earth?
Describe god and his nature?
Why does he need humans to praise and worship him? Is he that insecure? Sounds a lot like Saddam Hussein! "I'm great! Look what I can do! Get on your knees and lick my boots."
"I can give life , and take life...ain't I wonderful? And don't forget that I create good, and evil!"
@Cootabux Well,He is the Maker of Heaven and Earth and all that's in them,so He can do what ever He wants,I don't know the WHY,but He has His reasons,that's all I need to know.When the Elect get to Heaven they will be made higher than the angels and will be able to do,know and see things,that are unimagined,this is His reward to His elect.We don't choose Him ,He chooses us,if He didn't choose His own no one would ever want to get saved,all natural men want separation from God and to go to Hell.
Thank you! You keep making my case...but then, you always do.
You don't care that this Yahweh, who btw, wasn't the creator god, murdered women, children, infants, advocated slavery and was misogynistic. You, and your friends, just turn a blind eye to all that.
See, I can't do that. These observations in scripture bother me. I have to continue to ask such things as why such an advanced spiritual being would find the aroma of burnt offerings pleasing? And why he liked all the killing?
@Cootabux You have no idea what you're talking about for one thing,God had whole groups of people wiped out and their animals in some cases,because they weren't 100% human,they were an abomination.
@Cootabux The only people that think God is an evil tyrant,are those who are in their "natural man state",I deserve Hell,yet He chose to show mercy on me and save me,how can I not be grateful for that?
@Cootabux How do you come to the conclusion that God is evil?If naturalism is all that exists, good and evil don't exist. Predators in the wild eat their prey many times while the prey is still alive,is that evil? Many societies sacrificed humans and ate their flesh,the Nazis thought it was just fine to kill certain races of people,the communists killed over 200,000,000 people in the 20th century alone,were all these people evil?If so,how do you judge evil,what basis or standard do you use?
What an AH people like u are! That u would be so arrogant to suggest that u can't help us if we don't agree on your standard!
The atheist mentality is the only honest 1 I see in these debates. You Xians can't even agree on your interpretation of scripture, but you'd pretend to have all the answers...Ha! You can't even provide any evidence for your god.
You're making the claims of a supernatural god...prove them! Before one can preach a truth, it must be demonstrated that he has a truth.
@Cootabux "The atheist mentality is the only honest 1"
Please,atheists can't even have objective truth since they have no standard or basis for it.The Universe did not just show up one day where time,space and matter never existed before.The atheists postilion is,"If we deny God exists long enough then maybe He'll go away".To have matter,you must first have a matter MAKER.
@CBALLEN God even has a purpose for atheists,everyone is just a tool in God's tool box,that He has designed for a specific purposes, everything that happens,good or bad,is ultimately for the good of the Elect and the Glory of God.
If you have objective truth, please demonstrate it!
Before you can deny something, it has to be real! Of course, that's the problem isn't it? You rant on about god but can't provide 1 piece of evidence to substantiate your claim1
@Cootabux Well of course it's the only honest one you see in these debates. But that's because you've appointed the fool. I have no intention of running off. But I have no intention of wasting my time arguing pointlessly with an Atheist either. As I pointed out, if DasGaga were REALLY interested in a serious discussion, he could go visit my friend FivePoint. But I'll wager he's not going to, b/c he's not REALLY serious. Sorry, doesn't sound very honest 2 me
Interesting that u would start with the insults, but that's what people do when they are insecure. Agn, prove it.
The atheist commentary "is" the only honest 1. We aren't the 1s making such supernatural claims, which brtw, u cannot substantiate, & you've had multiple opportunities.
Waste ur time with an atheist? Just answer his questions. That's not wasting time. His questions, & as I believe mine too, are relevant & important, especially in light of this monster u claim is controlling us
@Cootabux And see, there it is, just as it always is. You don't want an honest discussion, you do not seek an honest discussion. What you want to do instead is act immature and childish by talking over people. This is why neither you nor Gaga will bother to check out FivePointBaptist. You don't want a discussion. You're not ready to grow up, and that is why I'm not going to waste my time with you. This is the last time I'm going to respond to any of your comments.
"For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish His purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled." (Revelation 17:17)
"Who can command and have it done, if the Lord has not ordained it? Is not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?" - Lamentations 3:37-38
"And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false." - 2 Thessalonians 2:11
This is just so abhorrent, it is hard to find words to express it. How can "saving some and punishing others" reveal the glory of god more than saving all? A god having the power to save all but choosing not to do so but arbitrarity punish some for eternity would be an evil, sick monster.
Calvinism/Doctrines of Grace/Reformed Theology are from the pit of Hell..they are heresies that make God Almighty a sinner and not just a sinner but the Author of ALL sin.
Every child raped..every women beaten..every person murdered..every deceitful business deal...every cruelty man has done, was authored by God. It is a blasphemous false religion and many otherwise fine Bible teachers are promoting it today. MacArthur, Sproul, Piper, are some of them. Flee from Calvinism. Repent of Calvinism!
willpower242 1 month ago
Watch this........this is good.......'Calvinist Mumbo Jumbo'
youtube.com/watch?v=AWCv_BdZu8o
willpower242 1 month ago
Calvinism is a heresy from the pit of Hell...........Repent of Calvinism.
Christ died for the sin of the WORLD........not only the *elect*!!!! John 1:29 and 1 John 2:2 and 2 Cor 5:19
willpower242 1 month ago
If this is the case then How do the elect know if their saved? They have no assurance of salvation since God decides who's saved. They can't be sure if they are God's elect.
ToBeSaltnLight 2 months ago
An excellent video explaining the truth of the gospel. Thank you for posting this. If someone watching this doesn't agree with this I'd suggest that they read the Book of John and the Book of Romans. God is sovereign in all things and ALL things work together for those who love God. Those who love God love Him because He loved us first.
JesusIsTheOneWay 4 months ago
wow, christians are crazy..
dontbreakin 10 months ago
@dontbreakin no just this guy Ha ha
blessedwithoutmeasur 5 months ago
@dontbreakin You only think that because you are only familiar with Protestant fundamentalists' beliefs. You should study the beliefs of traditional Christianity. It makes a lot more sense.
oedipusrexsophocles 3 months ago
If you are going to talk about Calvinism then you should put the title as Calvinism instead of reformed religion.
There are many "reformed" religions, reformed Judaism, reformed Islam, etc.
SELongB 10 months ago
@TheKJVberean Without the Reformers and their theology, we would all be Catholic today and would not even read the Bible for ourselves. Apparently you think the only people who ever knew the gospel were Jesus and you. How sad.
ksartin86 10 months ago 2
With either doctrine, Arminianism or Calvinism, some people are still lost. The big difference between the two is one says that humans decides on who is lost, the other one says that God decides. Somehow, to humans, it sounds more "fair" if humans get to choose their own destiny rather than having God decide it. Jesus, speaking to unbelievers, said, "you do not believe because you are not my sheep". - John 10, verse 26. His sheep believe. All others don't believe. It's as simple as that.
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
Your videos on Calvinism are EXCELLENT.And I love how you expose how people try to excuse sinning away with eternal security. The truth is that man was originally created in the image of God. God can choose, thus man can choose. That program(choice) was passed down through all of man kind even after the all, thus man has a choice. Just like the desire to have a mate was passed down through all of man kind. Anyways, love the videos, keep up the excellent work.
DMLDisciple 1 year ago
your calvinist doctrine of complete control by God over EVERYTHING could cause ANOMIE via SUBJECTIVE MORALITY. I say fuck calvinism. I AM THE AUTHOR OF MY MEANING
ambush9090 1 year ago
I do NOT believe in "lose your salvation"(heresy and blasphemy) but calvinism = devil worship.
barrypatrickius 1 year ago
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ChazzP1992 1 year ago
Why can't God just have saved everybody, but not all will believe this and be saved? Its a paradox and it devastates our logic but so does the Trinity and the two natures of Christ? How did Adam and Eve (who perfectly feared, loved, and trusted in God) fall in the first place? The real problem with Calvinism is that it tries to explain all of this instead of just confessing what the Bible says.
ChazzP1992 1 year ago
thats not what the scritpure says
blessedwithoutmeasur 1 year ago
Ah, reform theology, the false religion that blasphemes the holiness of God.
jonaya7 1 year ago
@jonaya7
Excuse me, but can you elaborate or at least make your comment edifying to others? That is not an entertainment video, you know. As for the doctrine that places the burden of salvation on man's shoulders, it makes Christ but half a savior, a weak deity that is unable to save those whom he loves. Can you accept the one who forms light and creates darkness, the Holy Lord that killed thousands without blame, from whom we receive all good and evil? Either way, that is the God of the Bible.
MichaelGabrielR 1 year ago
Sure, it makes sense that they would require people to return to their birthplace for the census at a certain time. you just don't believe the scriptures and that's ok with me. As a 5 pt. Calvinist I understand that some people are chosen to believe and others are passed over and reject the gospel and cannot believe unless God chooses to have mercy on them and give them the gift of faith. You do not choose God; God chooses you.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
Isn't it interesting that everything that happens in our everyday reality, happens exactly as we'd expect it to in a world without any gods or magical beings?
But tell me this. Since you all don't believe your god is evil, what act could god possibly do, that you "would" consider evil?
Cootabux 1 year ago
I forgot to ask!! Do Calvinists deny the reality of Evolution too? Do they believe that the Earth id only about 6K yrs old? And do they believe that man and all animals were created at one time, fully formed.
If y'all say yes to these questions...you've made my day, cuz I can prove Evolution to you, without a doubt!
Cootabux 1 year ago
@Cootabux I've already told you,people don't decide to become Christians,that's God's choice.He can even save you too.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
CBALLEN
Well that certainly makes a buncha sense....NOT!
U still don't get it! I shouldn't be in a position of "needing" to be saved!!! And, I'm certainly not!.
It's interesting that you'd presume to know that a god exists, and then exactly what he/it wants! I'd like to know what convinces you'd know this? And please don't say the bible bcuz you'd be on some seriously shaky ground. This is why those 33,820 diff. Xian denominations exist!
Again, you cannot demonstrate a single thing U claim.
Cootabux 1 year ago
@Cootabux LOL, you can't prove evolution because according to your experts, evolution occurs over millions of years. As to your questions, I am a 5 pt. Calvinist and I strongly disagree with the false theory of evolution. First off, a casual view of the theory would reveal that there are no living links between chimps and humans. Why did chimps survive and the links not survive? LOL you and your silly desperate attempt to explain how many arrived on Earth. You just can't accept the truth.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
All that you have demonstrated here is that you don't even understand the simplest basics of the theory of evolution, a theory for which there is more scientific evidence out there than for just about any other. However, it takes more than a 300 chars youtube comment to explain, so go and watch /watch?v=w1m4mATYoig
If you really have to deny hard scientific facts to justify your belief, then this shows that your belief is not only amoral but also very likely false.
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier
You cannot prove evolution in a science lab. Even Darwin admitted that if the missing links were never found then his theory didn't hold up. God created all life, all of the various forms of life. We didn't "evolve" . As I've said many times, if the chimps survived, and we survived, then why haven't all of the various links survived? You atheists can't answer that one can you?
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
Please go to /watch?v=w1m4mATYoig to see plenty of proof for evolution. There is a reason why academia universally accepts evolution and rejects creation. Because there is evidence, tons of evidence from a multitude of disciplines.
Why should there be any living links between Chimps and humans? Can you elaborate? 99% of all species that ever lived, are extinct. Humans and chimps are extremely close relatives. Why should there be closer ones? This is just arbitrary.
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier We are not relatives of chimps or any other monkey. The only thing we share is the same great creator who designed and created both as well as millions of other very distinct life forms. The variation and complexity of different creatures is evidence that we have a glorious God that can do anything and make anything. I cannot prove you're wrong and you cannot prove that God didn't create every living thing as they are.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
So your argument that there should be closer living relatives has nothing to support it, right? Well I concur with you that there is no evidence at all for creation, however there are tons of evidence for evolution. The simplest prediction which is 100% confirmed by the findings is that life evolved from simpler to more complex forms. The fossil record entirely confirms this. But there are tons of other proofs, see /watch?v=w1m4mATYoig
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier Actually, I didn't say that there is no evidence for "creation". I said that you can't prove that God didn't create it all. I also said that I can't prove to you that God did it other than the fact that the creation is here as we see it and humans didn't create it. Someone had to have created it and I believe that someone is the ruler of the universe and sovereign in his power to keep it all just as it is. You offer no alternative to the explanation that God did it.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
So, then - what /is/ your evidence for creation? You know, there is tons of evidence for evolution, i.e. that species did not come into existence abruptly in their present shape but evolved over time. There is conclusive evidence from a variety of disciplines that this is the case. In addition, there is plenty of evidence that we have not been "designed", because we have many properties which are nonsensical and detrimental but are perfectly explained by evolution.
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier We were not designed? LOL, you aren't stupid are you? the human body is a masterpiece of design, how the various systems work together to provide life to the body; the blood circulation system, the nerve system, the muscles, the bone structure as the foundation for which everything else is added to. Even if there was nothing else in existence, the awesome complexity of the human body IS evidence that it was designed and created by a being of superior intelligence.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us "We were not designed?"
No, we were not designed, else the designer would have been exceptionally incapable. Your "masterpiece of design" is actually full of grotesque flaws, which are explicable only through its evolutionary history. Ever thought about why billions of humans have spine pains? Because the spine was not "designed" to be erect, it evolved in tetrapods. An actual designer would not have rotated something by 90% which was designed to work horizontally.
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier People do back pain to themselves usually by trying to lift heavy things that they shouldn't. Yes, the human body can have problems but overall it is well made. The faxct that we see in 3 dimensions is a miracle in intself. scientists are just now starting to try to build 3-D TVs but we've had 3 D vision for generations because God is awesome and wanted us to see better. Such perfection doesn't evolve from lesser designs.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
the point is not only that the human body has problems, but that these problems are well explained by its evolutionary history, while they remain mysterious, if we assume that we have been created by a perfect designer. The eye is another case in point: It has a blind spot, it has to wiggle all the time, else we would not see anything, the image it produces it upside down etc.pp. However, the evolution of the eye is well understood, so the flaws are just what we expect.
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us "People do back pain to themselves usually by trying to lift heavy things that they shouldn't." So you conveniently overlooked the actual argument: Other mammals which have a very similar spine do not have these issues, because their spines are oriented horizontally. If you take such a spine and rotate it by 90 degrees, you ask for trouble, the trouble we humans have. Of course, some millions of years of evolution will partly compensate this, but flaws will always remain.
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier Animals are given instinct which tells them what they can and can't do. People are more intelligent than any animal and we should know better than to hurt our backs. People do all kinds of crazy things, drugs, etc. then want to blame God when they have deformed babies or get a hurt back. We didn't "evolve" over a million years either. the world's population has gone from 3 billion to 6 billion in the last fifty years. The earth would have far more people if that were true.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
According to your theory, only bad people should suffer from design flaws. You know that reality is different. Do only bad peopled get prostate troubles when they pass their 50s?
Even human misbehaviour is best explained by our evolutionary history. Why do we ingest too much fat and sugar and have too little physical exercise? Because for most of our history, these substances were rare, and needless physical exercise was a needless waste of energy. (continued)
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
[continuation, please note my other comment, too!] The argument from population growth has been proposed by people who are clueless about actual population dynamics. Growth rate depends on environmental conditions. There has not been steady growth for most history, there were countless mass extinctions. At one time, humanity was reduced to 10,000 people. Details here: /watch?v=w5eFM6C3lfc Arguing against evolution you are bound to loose, there is simply too much evidence.
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
I have already added several comments regarding you arguments, however, there is one more issue where I would really like your response, and I have asked it four or five times now: How do you establish that the bible is the word of God? What is the evidence? Especially when there are many other holy books making similar claims? What is there to convince me that the bible is true and the others are fake? Where is the evidence of divine inspiration?
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier I believe that one thing sets the Holy Bible apart from other "Holy Books" is that the prophecies in the old testament have either come true already or will come true at some point in the future. It had to have been written by people inspired by god who knows the beginning to end of this age. Try googling fulfilled prophecies from the old testament to learn more. Jesus also testifies to the truth and no one in any other book has done what they reported that he did.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
So are fulfilled prophecies the best evidence you have? In that case I am not impressed, because the new testament is full with references to alleged prophecies, which are either nowhere to be found in the OT (e.g. "he will be called a nazarene") or are not actually fulfilled (Jesus is never referred to as "Immanuel") or which are not actually messianic prophecies.
So what fulfilled prophecy is there that should really convince me?
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier I really don't have time to go through it all. I'd suggest that you google fulfilled prophecies of the old testament. Jesus coming is a fulfillment from old testament. If you study it you will discover the truth but you must keep ahn open mind and rebuke Satan who wants to control you. If you seek God you will find him. You either follow Christ or you follow Satan, there is no other way.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
I am not suggesting that you have to "go through it all", but if the prophecies are what gives you assurance that the bible is indeed the authentic and error-free word of God, then you should be able to name but two or three examples.
Actually, I find it slightly amusing that you warn me of "Satan". I thought you are a 5 point Calvinist, believing in the absolute sovereignty of God. That kind of rules out Satan doing anything, which is not decreed by God, doesn't it?
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier i'll go one more round with you then you can have the last word. Many of the prophecies in the old testament have come true already, many fulfilled in Jesus. Check them out. Even if there were no prophecies it would not affect my faith as that is a gift from God. Yes, I am a Calvinist and you are either saved or not saved, however, even saved people can be led astray under Satan until their appointed time of conversion when the Holy Spirit enters us. And yes God is sovereign.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us I don't see the utility of another round, when you don't actually provide evidence. You obviously *believe* that prophecies have been fulfilled, but unless you present facts, this belief has little relevance for anyone else. So what remains is that you have faith that Calvinism is true. So what? Muslims have faith that Islam is true, Jews believe in Judaism. How can you ever know for sure that you are right and it is not just your Satan manipulating you? See where this leads?
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier Old testament Book of Micah, chapter 5, verse 1 & 2 ...The messiah would be born in Bethlehem.... later, Jesus was in fact born in Bethlehem. Isiah, 53rd chapter, Says Jesus would be rejected... many years later Jesus was rejected and crucified by Romans and Jewish leaders. In the new testament, Jesus tells his disciple Peter that Peter will deny he knows Jesus three times before the rooster crows. Later, Peter does in fact deny Jesus and a rooster crows after the 3rd time.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
Isaiah 53 is not about the Messiah. It is one of the four Servant Songs, and the servant is repeatedly identified as Israel, see e.g. Isaiah 49:3. Regarding Micah: The birth narrative in Luke is likely a fabrication, produced specifically to match Micah. A census where everyone has to return to their birthplace would be nonsensical and there is no historical record of any. Regarding Peter and the cock - sorry, but this is within one narrative, likely an embellishment.
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
Respond to this video... As I said, go to Google and type in "old testament prophecies fulfilled" . You will get plenty to study.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
I have been investing some time in this. My conclusion is: There is simply no prediction of a virgin-born messiah, who is crucified and resurrected anywhere in the Hebrew bible. The Messiah is never identified as incarnation of God, and he is expected to complete his mission in a single lifetime, i.e. restore the glory of Israel and bring world peace, rather than dying and maybe returning millennia later. There is a reason, why Judaism never considered Jesus the Messiah.
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
The fact that we are here proves only one thing: that we are here. It says absolutely nothing about how we got here. Even if one accepts an intelligent cause as likely (again, without evidence), you have no way of making any claims about the properties of this cause, and, evidently, you have not explained where it came from. So this gets you as far as Deism at best. And that have to deny science to defend your faith does not make it more likely to be true. quite the oppsite
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier The Holy Bible explains a lot of it. God has ALWAYS existed, therefore God was not created. He is the creator of all that we see in our universe. He is the source of all life and knowledge, and especially all that is good. Evil people do not have God in them. In fact, Jesus calls them children of the Devil. Children of the devil cannot understand the ways of God because they serve Satan and Satan has blinded them to the truth. The Bible says that the evil cannot know God.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
The bible does not really say anything of God's existence prior to the creation event. It does not at explain anything, it just asserts. And the God character in the bible is far from unchanging or contradiction-free. But that's not my point. My point is, that at least a literal reading of the bible gets you into massive conflict with the scientific evidence we have. I feel, this does not support the idea that it was inspired by the creator of the universe.
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier If there is a God then wouldn't it make sense that he would have enough power to influence people what to write in his word to mankind? the trouble with some of you is that you have too small a view of God. God is above all. He rules the universe from the spinning of the planets to their orbits in space. what else do you think keeps the planets so precise? You can say gravity, but gravity is a force and God controls all forces.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
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@NewDirection4us
"If there is a God then wouldn't it make sense that he would have enough power to influence people what to write in his word to mankind? "
Sure this would make sense. The trouble with the existing holy books including the bible is, however, is that they do no display any signs of divine inspiration. The picture they paint of the earth, the universe reflects the cosmovision of ignorant humans, not of an all-knowing divine being.
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us "You can say gravity, but gravity is a force and God controls all forces. "
Well, this may be what you believe, but it clearly does not constitute evidence, because it has no additional explanatory value. The laws of nature suffice to explain these phenomena. Plus, there is even less evidence, that the forces of nature are controlled by any /particular/ deity. How do you know it is not Shiva, Thor or Huitzlipochli who does all the controlling?
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier god has put all of the laws of nature into place and he maintains them at all times unless he wants to override them if he so chooses. I know it is the God of the Bible, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, that are in command of all things in the universe. every atom is under God's authority. Even Satan, the devil, can do only what God allows him to do. God is sovereign in all things.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
"I know it is the God of the Bible, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, that are in command of all things in the universe. every atom is under God's authority. "
How do you *know* these things? What is your evidence? Can you demonstrate that your claim is true?
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier How do I know, because the Bible says so and the Bible is the inspired word of God. also, all of the evidence of creation is testamony to the creator. You may not see it because you are blinded by Satan, the devil.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
1. where does the bible mention atoms or anything remotely similar?
2. How did you establish that the bible is the inspired word of God? What is the evidence?
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
"all of the evidence of creation is testamony to the creator."
Yes, if we had actual evidence of a creation event, this would be strong evidence for a creator, however, can you please stop dodging the question: What evidence *is there* for creation?
There is lots of verifiable scientific evidence that we were not created but we emerged over time. I don't know of any scientific evidence for creation.
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier The Holy Bible is the evidence. It is the word of God and tells all about his creating the Earth and universe. you should try reading it some instead of just science books. Humans really don't know much. All of the knowledge of all humans combined is far less than 1 percent of the knowledge that God knows. Scientists are ignorant compared to God.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
[sigh!] So how do you establish that the bible is the word of God? Actually if you read the bible it is a collection of works by human writers from different times,with very different agendas and often mutually incompatible claims. Hint: On what day did Jesus die? If this is the word of God, how could God get so many things wrong?
I asked you the question in my previous comment, you did not answer, so: How do you establish that the bible is the word of God?
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier God is in control of all things, so if God wants to reveal truth to his people then he does it through his writers that he he has inspired through the holy spirit. In other words, god wants something in the Bible then God makes sure that it's in there. I think God can handle that if he can keep the Earth rotating so precisely and stable.
NewDirection4us 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
Is my English really *that* bad? I asked you a simple question:
What is your evidence that the bible is _actually_ the word of God?
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@NewDirection4us
If you do not want to respond to this question, please say so, else I have to repeat this question, because I fear you overlooked it again:
How did you establish that the bible actually is the word of God? What evidence do you have?
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
It is really funny how these Calvinists on the one hand claim that God is "absolutely sovereign", but that does not keep them from declaring what God "must" do ( 1:33 ) "God must punish evil" etc pp. Also the sentence "God hates sin" makes no sense whatsoever, two senstences after making clear that God is in absolute control, i.e. he is also causing sin to happen.
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
dasGagaTier
Are they any different than their god psychologically?
Yes, it fails to make any rational sense on a number of levels. How can they possibly rationalize all of this? That's why I was pressing 'rofyle' to answer your questions.
To me, it's not just a moral dilemma for them, but also in how they see justice in this god's intent (which u just reiterated).
Immoral, irrational, and just plain nonsensical.
I want to get this in quickly. In a minute, I have to get back to work.
Cootabux 1 year ago
Well,think what you want,but God doesn't answer every prayer with a yes.The apostle Paul prayed for God to remove some sort of problem that he was having and God said NO,my grace is sufficient.Again,God does not answer all our prayers with a YES,YOU'RE JUST WRONG.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
"Well,think what you want,but God doesn't answer every prayer with a yes."
Well, in that case Jesus was wrong....
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
CBALLEN
"God does not answer all our prayers with a YES,YOU'RE JUST WRONG."
Yet, scripture tells us that god "will" answer our prayers, no conditions attached, as long as we pray as instructed. I can think of 4 or 5 verses that make god answering prayer very clear, yet I haven't seen any answered. I didn't see any answered in Nam, nor did I see an entire congregation's intercessory prayer answered, when I watched a 7 yr old little girl die an agonizing death from Bone Cancer (I've seen many).
Cootabux 1 year ago
CBALLEN
It's not what I think, it's what your scripture says. Counter those 5 verses in the NT.
Bcuz you say I'm wrong, certainly doesn't make it so, no matter how much you wish it to be. And I got news for you, you have no idea what Paul said or did!
But lets say what you claim is true, then why is it I haven't seen "any" prayer answered, and I'm not referring to my own?
Why don't U take my prayer challenge? I made it 3 yrs ago to all YT Xians. I haven't had one taker yet....wonder why?
Cootabux 1 year ago
If u say u get your moral compass from your god's word, then I say u are either mistaken, or lying!
You get your morals from the same place we atheists do...ourselves. We have developed our morals as a social society as we evolved! It's not hard at all to figure this out. We need no magical mandate, but if you're going to claim one, at least find a better source than scripture, which gives us a hypocritical dictator.
BTW, how many of u know the origins of Judaism. U should, it's your foundation.
Cootabux 1 year ago
@Cootabux
"If u say u get your moral compass from your god's word, then I say u are either mistaken, or lying!"
I think that the moral compass of Calvinists is indeed configured by what they conceive to be God's word. They believe that it is morally just and "holy" to torture someone eternally, just because you can and for the sole purpose of showing that you are the boss. It is hard to think of any non-religious source suitable of justifying such a totally depraved morality..
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
#1
dasGagaTier
I'm only hearing about Calvinists for the 1st time, several days ago. (My job doesn't give the time I used to have). Anyway, I was stunned to hear what they believe, and there's no questions that what you say is true, but what I'm referring to are Xians in general who make the claim that they get their morals from god, yet they don't stone unruly children, force women to marry their rapist, etc. In other words, they cherry pick their rules/commandments as they see fit. In that
Cootabux 1 year ago
#2
dasGagaTier
respect, they don't follow god's morality as they claim. That was the point I was making.
What Calvinists do is interpret scripture as they see fit & in such an extreme manor. They also do not follow their god's laws to the T. See what I'm getting at?
What is so incredible about Calvinists is how they can reconcile in their minds, this god they see as glorious and wonderful. He fits the Psychopath profile more-so than any human ever could! They worship a tyrannical monster!
Cootabux 1 year ago
#3
dasGagaTier
But this says more than a certain denomination of Xians r extremists. To me, it says that these people lost a part of their humanity in totally submitting to such a deity. They have no problem in accepting a Psychopath as their god, 4 which they'd likely do anything to please! They dont agree with civilized man's concept of morality.
They couldn't care less about their fellow man & what this monster plans to do. They only care 2 B loyal to it so they will be saved, they think!
end
Cootabux 1 year ago
Go back & read Revelation. Read about the suffering jesus wants to cause man. Why? He just wants to torture man, just to cause suffering.
In order for u to submit to such a being, u all have to have lost much of your human decency, if u ever had any. You are willing to do this bcuz U are selfish people. U only care about being on the winning side, regardless of your god's sadistic, evil deeds.
Ever consider that you're being tested to see what you value most...loyalty or love for fellow humans?
Cootabux 1 year ago
@Cootabux My love is first and foremost given to my God,what He decides to do with His creation is none of my business.Lost people have absolutely know clue about God,all His ways are righteous,not popular with atheists,but righteous and good
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
So you think that eternal torment is just fine? What shocks me the most, not only about Calvinists but about all Christians who believe in eternal hell is their complete lack of compassion.
According to your logic, parents should have the right to torture their children, after all they are theirs. Might makes right.
Of course, in the times when the books of the bible were written, torture was still fully acceptable. Somehow, religion seems to have conserved this barbarity.
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
How is subjecting your creatures to eternal torture "righteous" or "good". Those things which you say your god does are considered the ultimate evil in any decent human society.
And if you are a Calvinists, you have to believe that god has foreordained everything. i.e. those whom your "righteous" god tortures eternally never even had the slightest chance to escape. How exactly is this "just" or "good", please explain!
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
CBALLEN
My love is first and foremost given to my God,what He decides to do with His creation is none of my business.Lost people have absolutely know clue about God,all His ways are righteous,not popular with atheists,but righteous and good
How does 1 love such a being, unless u r lacking in the morals that civilized man has developed?
That's utter BS! I know more than I want 2 about ur god.
His ways r righteous & good??? R U brain dead? Have u not read the OT?
Of course he's not pop with us!
Cootabux 1 year ago
CBALLEN
Maybe this comes from my military service...I don't know, but I've never submitted to a tyrant. I see your god as being psychologically no different than Saddam, except that god was much worse! Saddam wasn't evil enough to be one of god's foot soldiers!
I despise the Saddams of the world, & the only diff. between him & your god is that Yahweh claims to be all powerful, & that he created us. That changes nothing.
U don't love this god. U fear him, & that's the only reason u submit to him!
Cootabux 1 year ago
I have a question, btw, I don't know why so many refuse to answer questions.
Lets try this one;
How was JC's dying for our sins such a big sacrifice? He's god, ain't he? He hangs on a cross 'till he dies. Did he, he's god! He rises from the dead, ascends into heaven, sits at the right hand of....himself, & then he.......rules the universe forever, yay!!
So please tell me, where's the suffering? Where the sacrifice? Now, if he had died and stayed dead, or went to hell & stayed there...then, yes!
Cootabux 1 year ago
There are 33,820 different Xian denominations worldwide. Each denomination is convinced that they have the only true understanding of god's word, and that all other denominations are still in the dark!
You bible has caused this massive confusion among it's adherents...and it only gets worse, bcuz these different groups have never resolved their differences in understanding scripture.
I think your god is having some fun with you! It would certainly fit his psychopathic mentality to do so!
Cootabux 1 year ago
@Cootabux The Bible plainly says that many will turn to doctrines of Demons,fall away from the truth,won't put up with sound doctrine ect.Jesus said many in that day will say Lord ,Lord,have we not DONE all these wonderful things in your name and Jesus will tell them to depart,I never knew you.Notice,Jesus does not call these people liars,He just say He never knew them,not that He used to know them and they lost their salvation.So what's happening now,in these last days,was predicted to happen.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
CBALLEN
The bible plainly says a lot of things...u know, like JC's 2nd coming was to happen within their lifetime, but, oh well.
The reason Y some, not many, not the masses, but a some pre-Xians have turned away, bcuz we have studied scripture for the 1st time!
That's all it really takes. For me it was a number of things, god not answering prayer was one, and the 1st that I noticed.
You can't escape the fact that god is a psychopath! Lets see u reconcile ur loving god with that.
Cootabux 1 year ago
@Cootabux I believe God answers all prayers,He answers YES,NO AND WAIT. I saw God answer one of my prayers YES once,in a Physics defying way ,in just a moment after I prayed,it was truly awesome.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
"I believe God answers all prayers,He answers YES,NO AND WAIT."
The bible does not say so. Quite the opposite. It has Jesus assuring believers: "All things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."" (Math 21:22) So there is nothing here about "no" or "wait". According to the Bible, god is to fullfil all requests by believers, without limitations. However, this is obviously not the case. So either Jesus was lying or the biblical god does not exist.
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@daGag The Bible tells us that we don't have what we pray for because we ask amiss.There have been many prayers that I prayed that weren't answered yes,and as time passed,I saw that if they would have been answered yes,I would have been in trouble.God knows exactly what we need.When we sin ,we sin against a Holy God,we are rebels against the eternal One.If you threatened to kill me,you probably wouldn't get in trouble,but if you threatened to kill the President you'd spend a lot of time in Jail.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
The Bible says something different from what you say: There are numerous passages, where Jesus gives full and unqualified assurance that *every* believer will receive *whatever* he asks for in prayer. There is no qualification of the sort "only if god thinks it is right for you." Nope. So if a believer prays to god to heal their child who is sick with cancer, god should immediately heal them every single time - if the bible is correct. Now, we all know that reality is different...
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
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dasGagaTier 1 year ago
CBALLEN
dasgagaTier and I, get the same understanding from scripture pertaining to prayer. How is it that u see something totally different?
John chapter 14:12 -14
"Truly, truly, I say to u, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; & greater works than these will he do, b/c I go to the Father. Whatever u ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.
I have 4 more verses.....but they say the same thing!!!
Cootabux 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier Another thing is,God makes the rules and no matter what you or I think, does not make a bit of difference.God's will will be done in all things,all you will be able to do,is what God wants.Someday every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,this includes you too.After that you can curse God for eternity,but it won't make any difference.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
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@CBALLEN
"Another thing is,God makes the rules and no matter what you or I think, does not make a bit of difference."
So again, all you have to say is "might makes right".
You did not even attempt to answer my question how it can be considered "just" or "holy" to torture someone for doing what you forced them to do. In any decent society, a person acting like that would be locked away.
Anyway, what is your best piece of evidence that such a god exists?
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
"Another thing is,God makes the rules and no matter what you or I think, does not make a bit of difference."
First, this god is most probably imaginary, and all that this demonstrates is how bronze age barbaric morals live on in religion. Second, what you say is best summarized as "might makes right".
Torturing others for doing what you forced them to do, will get you locked up in any decent society. However you believe the universe was created by such a psychopath. Can't you see?
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier God doesn't have to force anyone to sin,God just directs where the man goes to sin.Man is like a car stuck in gear and the gas pedal stuck on the floor, always ready to rush into sin full speed.God spends most of His time putting the brakes on man and steering him in the direction that He wants him to go in.Man left to do just as he wants means we would all be destroyed at this time,man would have annihilated himself many times over since his existence if not for God.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
When the text of this says, very much in line with Calvinist mainstream, "God is in absolute control, even the mind of man", this clearly implies that everything which comes to pass is controlled by God, from which logically follows that God has the sole responsibility for everything that happens. How, I ask you the nth's time, is it then just to punish anyone else for those things? Dare to answer?
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier Even though God has decreed everything,man still does exactly as his heart most desires.God has not called you to Jesus,so you're like everyone in your situation,you hate God,this is what you most desire,so yeah you're still held responsible because you sin against God with knowledge,knowing that you are a rebel,you can't plead ignorance.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
"Even though God has decreed everything,man still does exactly as his heart most desires. (...) so yeah you're still held responsible because you sin against God "
I beg your pardon, but this does not make sense. Do I, does anyone, have free will, thus, the chance to do other than "decreed"? Yes or no? If yes, we are responsible, if not, we are not.
P.S.: I don't "hate" the god Yahwe, just as I don't hate Zeus or Odin. I don't see any evidence either exists.
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier The Universe and all that's in it proves God.You really have to have a boat load of faith to believe that something happened by itself to create everything,when real science says it's impossble.Science says there must be a matter maker,since nothing in our universe can neither create or destroy matter.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
What do you mean by "God"? How exactly does the universe prove the God you believe in? How do you know that it was created by one God and not many? How do you show that it was Yahwe and not Lord Krishna? How do you demonstrate that the cause behind the universe is a personal, intelligent being? And how can such a being just exist without requiring a cause? Unless you have good answers to all of the above questions, you have proven nothing at all.
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
Which science says "there must be a matter maker"?
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
But you have not replied to my simple question above: do you believe that we have the capacity to act differently from what God has decreed? Is everything that happens controlled by God or not? Has God predestined some to heaven and others to damnation or are we judged according to our deeds?
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
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CBALLEN
"God doesn't have to force anyone to sin,God just directs where the man goes to sin.Man is like a car stuck in gear and the gas pedal stuck on the floor, always ready to rush into sin full speed"
C'mon dude, now U R just being silly...and quite wrong!
Look, I used to be a very nasty person. I don't hide the fact that I've killed more than my share of human beings, but what changed me was my tradition Indian spiritual teachings & experience, not Xianity.
I'm nothing like your example.
Cootabux 1 year ago
dasGagaTier
I'm convinced u r correct in saying god is imaginary! In a way, so is the Judeo-Chriatian religion.
The last piece of historical data that I was able to study, was the Ugaritic Texts. If u haven't studied this yet, please do. But I have the feeling that you already know the subject well.
It explains how Judaism was adopted from older Pantheons. Then the Hebrews, in time, would alter & fabricate their own Elohim, which went from polytheistic to mono, which is what we see today.
Cootabux 1 year ago
@Cootabx You don't understand,salvation is a supernatural act that I can not explain to someone,it has to be experienced.God has answered many of my prayers in the affirmative,but in His time not mine.I believe in God because I was headed out to find a bar from my motel room when I was drawn to read the Bible on the table,after an hour or so of reading,God soundly saved me,that was 16 yrs ago.The only regret I have is that He didn't do it sooner,but He had a reason for waiting that I don't know.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@Cootabux I know you deny anything supernatural,but all these Ghost hunting shows and videos have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that spirits exist.I don't believe they are the ghosts of departed humans,I believe they are demons pretending,but that's beside the point,they do exist.There is so much more evidence for the supernatural than anything an atheist can come up with.Atheists claim Macro-evolution is true and some day they'll have proof of it.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
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@CBALLEN
"I know you deny anything supernatural,but all these Ghost hunting shows and videos have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that spirits exist."
As long as you haven't produced actual evidence, it is hard to deny any of it. So, yes, I am actually curious: Can you name any specific piece of evidence proving the existence of the supernatural beyond reasonable doubt? Please provide the exact source. I'd love to check it out!
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
CBALLEN
Words of a true tyrant!!
If I die & then see this exact kind of being, then I'll know I was right! And I'd rather be right & have made my choices for the right reasons, even if this cosmic Tyrant tortures me, I won't kiss his ass, as u will be doing, 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week, for eternity!! And I "will" curse such a demon 4 eternity, if it is 2 B.
But u know what I enjoy now about all this? U don't have the slightest idea of what is going to happen when we die.U wanna think U do! LOLs
Cootabux 1 year ago
CBALLEN
"I believe God answers all prayers,He answers YES,NO AND WAIT. I saw God answer one of my prayers YES once,in a Physics defying way ,in just a moment after I prayed,it was truly awesome."
Ha, ha! Sorry, but I was just thinking...why would god help you with such a prayer, while ignoring the prayers of an entire congregation, asking for the healing of a beautiful little angel who was suffering more than any child should?? Why?
Sorry, but I do not believe U!
I can prove it doesn't work.
Cootabux 1 year ago
Pure Evil!!
If everyone was saved...
Pure insanity!
This is another example of religion's absurdity!
The reason all this was written the way it is, is bcuz of man's nature. Early man tried to explain man's good vs. bad, nature. They didn't know about Evolution. And yes, it's a scientific fact and I can prove it to anyone who has an open mind.
Anyway, man's struggle to overcome his animal nature, is what Orig. Sin story was an attempt to explain it.
Read the story again, objectively. It's BS!
Cootabux 1 year ago
@sushi08241982 Indeed! And people dasGagaTier shall never understand this, for they are one of those who are wicked.
rofyle 1 year ago
@rofyle
if I am "wicked" (how exactly do you know? I can't recall meeting you.), then, according to Calvin only because your god decreed it. So in your world (which I hold to be delusional) you are "elect" and I "reprobated", and that for no particular reason. Your god makes you believe and me disbelieve, and then he will punish me for being what he forced me to be. In what universe would acting this way be considered "just"?
Fortunately, there is no reason to believe such a god exists.
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@sushi08241982
Reformed theology holds that God controls everything, he decreed the fall, he decreed man to be sinful. So how would it be just for God to punish people for being what he made them to be? And how can eternal torture be "justice"? Torture is a disgrace, is evil. Eternal punishment is infinitely unjust, eternal torment would be infinite evil. Fortunately, there is no reason to believe that such a god (or any otherr) exists...
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier How is God is to be considered just after having instructed Satan to harm Job, who had done nothing to deserve it? What about in Jesus' case; do you think God was just in instructing His Son to die for sins He did not commit? What about the martyrs, people like Stephen? Is God just in standing idly by and doing nothing to stop the martyrdom of those He says He loves?
rofyle 1 year ago
@rofyle
In the story of Job, God is depicted as fundamentally unjust, and Job is actually very aware of of that. The interpretation of Jesus' early death as a human sacrifice atoning for the sins of humankind strikes me as patently absurd and is likely a secondary rationalisation of a traumatising event.
However, if the god you believe in has foreordained absolutely everything that happens, then how can punishing any human (soul) for any of these things be just? I'd be very curious to know!
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier Job is aware God is depicted as fundamentally unjust? Perhaps you have never read the first chapter of Job. Pray tell, where was Job to be found in the initial conversation between God and Satan, and precisely what did Job have to contribute to this conversation?
How is God just in instructing His Son to die for sins His Son did not commit?
How is God just in imputing Adam's guilt to all mankind? Everyone is born guilty of a sin they did not commit.
rofyle 1 year ago
@rofyle
"How is God just in imputing Adam's guilt to all mankind? Everyone is born guilty of a sin they did not commit. "
Well, that's fundamentally unjust and absurd, of course. Under no circumstances would such a thing be morally acceptable, i.e. outside North Korea.
However, Calvinism just pushes the limits even further, by explicitly saying that God has foreordained everything, but still is wrathful at humans and punishes them for doing what he decreed they should do..
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, EVEN OVER THOSE WHO DID NOT SIN BY BREAKING A COMMAND, AS DID ADAM, who was a pattern of the one to come."
(Romans 5:12-14).
Are you saying Scripture is absurd?
rofyle 1 year ago
@rofyle
Yes I am saying this is absurd. Can you explain by what mechanism I can be guilty of something which I did not do?
Additionally, how can any human be guilty of anything if, as Calvin wants us to believe, anything that ever happened was foreordained by God? Please answer the questions.
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier I'm assuming you're not claiming to be a Christian then?
rofyle 1 year ago
@rofyle
What I claim to be has no bearing on the issue, i.e. how randomly penalising some and rewarding others regardless of their merits can be considered just, and how humans can be punishable for acts decreed by god. Still waiting for any sound argument. No, just quoting more absurdities from scripture is not a valid substitute for that.
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier What you claim to be has every bit of bearing on the issue, for if you do not accept Scripture as final authority, then there can be no absolute standard by which we can discuss the issue.
rofyle 1 year ago
@rofyle
So how does "accepting scripture as the final authority" solve the two logical contradictions at hand, 1. that the doctrine of original sin says that one can be guilty of something one has not done and 2. that according to Calvinism we are punished by God for deeds which he foreordained himself; plus 3. we are punished or rewarded completely regardless of any of our merits ?
How do you solve this logical mess?
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier And there we go. We cannot discuss the issue because there is no absolute standard by which we can agree. Now if you can't accept that, then you have some very deep philosophical and logical flaws that I will not be able to help you with. That aside, I have no interest in gabbing with an Atheist. To be quite blunt, they bore me. However, my friend Chris over at Fivepointbaptist loves to talk to them, so if you're truly interested, then stop over there. Otherwise, yawn.
rofyle 1 year ago
@rofyle
So I take it that you have no answers to my questions. I wonder how you could ever convert anyone to your denomination, if you cannot even respond to the simplest of reservations one can have against it. I see that the only answer you had to my simple question how one can be guilty of something one has not done is "because the bible says so". I find this intellectually bankrupt. But not only that. It would be easy to find tons of other bible quotes which say the exact opposite.
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier Death was not part of the creation at first,death for man and animals only came after Adam's sin.All men have inherited Adam's sin nature and Adam's death penalty has also been passed down to all people and animals,if this weren't the case,babies would never die before they have actually sinned personally.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
Well, 1. of course this is mythology, there is no evidence Adam ever existed. 2. According to "reformed theology" all of this is entirely controlled by God. God "decreed the fall", he intended man to be sinful etc. So it is hard to see where man is to blame, if he is a mere puppet. 3. A "sinful nature" is not the same as guilt. Actually quite the opposite. If we are born with a "sinful nature", the only one to blame for this would be God, the designer, and we would deserve leniency..
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier We are nothing but clay in the potter's hands,and yes,God has decreed all things before He ever created anything,He is playing with a stacked deck of marked cards,but why God has chosen to do what He does,that's another story,that's the secret things of God.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
So, in that case, how would the concept of the potter rewarding or punishing the clay make even sense? And, btw, if we all are just robots/puppets, your god must be the loneliest being in the Universe, spending billions of years just with his simulation. Why would he do so? Creating a universe, where every particle and every millisecond is 100% controlled by him would just be 100% pointless....
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier How do you know it would be pointless?Our ways are not God's ways,He has secret things that we have no idea about.In Heaven no one will be able to sin at all,we will all have the mind of Christ ,but while on Earth Jesus is the righteousness of His people.What ever God does,He does to glorify Himself,if God gave anyone else praise He'd be an idolater.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
So what could be the point in creating a universe where every single event from beginning to end is already unchangeable predetermined? The reason we run simulations or play games is that we want to learn or be entertained. If nothing unexpected happened, our lives would be pointless. How could this be different for god? And the second part of my question, you conveniently ignored: Why should god punish or reward anyone if we are just his puppets? Let alone punish eternally?
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier Everything God does,He does for His glory.I couldn't begin to give you an answer on why God does things the way He does,those are the secret things of God alone,we are just to have faith that God knows what He's doing.There are things I do sometimes,that I don't even know the reason why I do them,but He does.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
So you seem to believe in a god who is utterly incomprehensible and 100% obsessed with his own glory. What makes glory so important? What /is/ glory?
How does eternally punishing your own creatures which have no free will and just act according to the strings you pull add to this glory? Why create them as puppets but at the same time with the ability to suffer? And, finally, if your god is entirely incomprehensible, how do you know about him what you claim to know?
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
CBALLEN
"no one will be able to sin at all, we will all have the mind of Christ."
Then why wouldn't god make this happen now? Why wait? Why waste time on Earth?
Describe god and his nature?
Why does he need humans to praise and worship him? Is he that insecure? Sounds a lot like Saddam Hussein! "I'm great! Look what I can do! Get on your knees and lick my boots."
"I can give life , and take life...ain't I wonderful? And don't forget that I create good, and evil!"
What a disgusting evil tyrant
Cootabux 1 year ago
@Cootabux Well,He is the Maker of Heaven and Earth and all that's in them,so He can do what ever He wants,I don't know the WHY,but He has His reasons,that's all I need to know.When the Elect get to Heaven they will be made higher than the angels and will be able to do,know and see things,that are unimagined,this is His reward to His elect.We don't choose Him ,He chooses us,if He didn't choose His own no one would ever want to get saved,all natural men want separation from God and to go to Hell.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
"Well,He is the Maker of Heaven and Earth and all that's in them,so He can do what ever He wants,I"
In other words: Might makes right.
Whatever you call this, it has nothing to do with justice or love or moral.
If such a god existed (for which there is absolutely no evidence), the universe would be like a cosmic North Korea, just infinitely worse.
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
CBALLEN
Thank you! You keep making my case...but then, you always do.
You don't care that this Yahweh, who btw, wasn't the creator god, murdered women, children, infants, advocated slavery and was misogynistic. You, and your friends, just turn a blind eye to all that.
See, I can't do that. These observations in scripture bother me. I have to continue to ask such things as why such an advanced spiritual being would find the aroma of burnt offerings pleasing? And why he liked all the killing?
Cootabux 1 year ago
@Cootabux You have no idea what you're talking about for one thing,God had whole groups of people wiped out and their animals in some cases,because they weren't 100% human,they were an abomination.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@Cootabux The only people that think God is an evil tyrant,are those who are in their "natural man state",I deserve Hell,yet He chose to show mercy on me and save me,how can I not be grateful for that?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@Cootabux How do you come to the conclusion that God is evil?If naturalism is all that exists, good and evil don't exist. Predators in the wild eat their prey many times while the prey is still alive,is that evil? Many societies sacrificed humans and ate their flesh,the Nazis thought it was just fine to kill certain races of people,the communists killed over 200,000,000 people in the 20th century alone,were all these people evil?If so,how do you judge evil,what basis or standard do you use?
CBALLEN 1 year ago
CBALLEN
Again, u make my point!!
I JUDGE BY YOUR GOD'S OWN STANDARDS!!!
He made the rules. He gave us the 10 commandments. (Well, 1 of 2 sets, anyway. Ha, ha!) But he is the one who says "do as I say, not as I do."
And u ask such a questions after seeing the struggle man has had in trying to overcome his own animal instincts??
But then, u don't recognize this.
I do judge god for having a double standard. But I also value the feelings & welfare of others (do you?), bcuz I have evolved this way.
Cootabux 1 year ago
rofyle
What an AH people like u are! That u would be so arrogant to suggest that u can't help us if we don't agree on your standard!
The atheist mentality is the only honest 1 I see in these debates. You Xians can't even agree on your interpretation of scripture, but you'd pretend to have all the answers...Ha! You can't even provide any evidence for your god.
You're making the claims of a supernatural god...prove them! Before one can preach a truth, it must be demonstrated that he has a truth.
Cootabux 1 year ago
@Cootabux "The atheist mentality is the only honest 1"
Please,atheists can't even have objective truth since they have no standard or basis for it.The Universe did not just show up one day where time,space and matter never existed before.The atheists postilion is,"If we deny God exists long enough then maybe He'll go away".To have matter,you must first have a matter MAKER.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN God even has a purpose for atheists,everyone is just a tool in God's tool box,that He has designed for a specific purposes, everything that happens,good or bad,is ultimately for the good of the Elect and the Glory of God.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
Prove it!
"God even has a purpose for atheists,"
If this were true, it would be to bring you out of the dark ages, bcuz you'd fit right in!
Cootabux 1 year ago
@Cootabux Prov. 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.
CBALLEN 1 year ago
@CBALLEN
If you have objective truth, please demonstrate it!
Before you can deny something, it has to be real! Of course, that's the problem isn't it? You rant on about god but can't provide 1 piece of evidence to substantiate your claim1
Cootabux 1 year ago
@Cootabux Well of course it's the only honest one you see in these debates. But that's because you've appointed the fool. I have no intention of running off. But I have no intention of wasting my time arguing pointlessly with an Atheist either. As I pointed out, if DasGaga were REALLY interested in a serious discussion, he could go visit my friend FivePoint. But I'll wager he's not going to, b/c he's not REALLY serious. Sorry, doesn't sound very honest 2 me
rofyle 1 year ago
rofyle
Interesting that u would start with the insults, but that's what people do when they are insecure. Agn, prove it.
The atheist commentary "is" the only honest 1. We aren't the 1s making such supernatural claims, which brtw, u cannot substantiate, & you've had multiple opportunities.
Waste ur time with an atheist? Just answer his questions. That's not wasting time. His questions, & as I believe mine too, are relevant & important, especially in light of this monster u claim is controlling us
Cootabux 1 year ago
@Cootabux And see, there it is, just as it always is. You don't want an honest discussion, you do not seek an honest discussion. What you want to do instead is act immature and childish by talking over people. This is why neither you nor Gaga will bother to check out FivePointBaptist. You don't want a discussion. You're not ready to grow up, and that is why I'm not going to waste my time with you. This is the last time I'm going to respond to any of your comments.
rofyle 1 year ago
@dasGagaTier
"For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish His purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled." (Revelation 17:17)
"Who can command and have it done, if the Lord has not ordained it? Is not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?" - Lamentations 3:37-38
"And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false." - 2 Thessalonians 2:11
Just?
rofyle 1 year ago
@rofyle
Thanks for not answering my question: By what mechanism can one be guilty of something one has not done?
dasGagaTier 1 year ago
@rofyle
Just answer dasGagaTier's questions!! Can you do that before you run off?
Cootabux 1 year ago
This is just so abhorrent, it is hard to find words to express it. How can "saving some and punishing others" reveal the glory of god more than saving all? A god having the power to save all but choosing not to do so but arbitrarity punish some for eternity would be an evil, sick monster.
dasGagaTier 1 year ago 2