What a great video!!! There are so many facts about anatomy and correct and natural movement. I must wonder if some of the people leaving argumentative comments actually read it all or understand enough about bio-mechanics to get why this is so damaging to the horse! NO horse naturally moves around with it's head in this position for more than a few seconds. Overuse of tendons and ligaments results in long-term sometimes irreversible damage. Nice job daisyfields!!!! Shared in facebook!
Is anyone besides me aware of the fact that there are 100.000 of these movies on youtube, and that each and everyone of them contain the same pictures and phrases?
Hyperflexion is not always cruel. Sometimes you use it on a horse who is younger and who needs to know, but in order for it not to be abusive you need to soften as it learns and of course you can't HYPER, HYPERFLEX.
I will tell you the sercet of Rollkur, trainers use this to restrict oxygen to the brain of the horse the horses throax closes up. With less oxygen to the brain the horse then becomes calm and lightheaded and slows down because of to much carbon monoxide in the blood then the horse learns to be submissive to the rider's every comand because of fear of suffcation. Just like when a lion attacks a zebra it will go for the throax and then the drop down so liken these people to beasts of the feld.
ok i'm confused i'm really not a dressage person i preffer jumping. WHAT is going on? i do realize that the horse's neck is uncomfortably arched but what else? And i believe people that anky is a good rider (meaning she doesnt fall every five seconds) , but a bad trainer.
@saminiky Actually, sliding stops are natural. I've seen horses do it after a bluff charge at another horse. Not as extreme, but they do it. Regardless, neither of the things you mentioned are painful and bad for the horses health.
@XceptingDeniall ok, a horse might show this behaviour in the wild, so it's natural when not shown not in the extreme. Then rollkur is natural to, when not shown in extreme. Like a stallion who want's to impress a mare
@saminiky I've never seen a stallion press his chin all the way to his chest to impress a mare. Even if they did, there is still a difference. Sliding stops and reining are not painful unless the horse takes a tumble. Rollkur is painful in itself.
But even if they do hyperflex at times to impress a mare, there's no way they go around for extended periods of times doing it. It's uncomfortable and painful after a while.
@XceptingDeniall I tried to put a link but it seems that youtube doesn't want links in the comments. But if you just type: 'stallion impressing mare' in google and then click pictures, the 5the picture is a litle stallion with his chin -as good as- on his chest. (it might not be the same picture you get but you'll see what I mean :-))
@saminiky The rearing grulla/blue roan? What he's doing doesn't look uncomfortable, I see horses do that a lot. Doesn't look like hyperflexion to me, and once he went down he most likely would have stopped. But if you type in hyperflexion into google, the extremes to which it is done is horrible. I never condoned sliding stops or reining, frankly I see no point in either one, and I don't doubt that they can become uncomfortable for the horse. But it doesn't compare to rollkur in my book.
@XceptingDeniall I'm not a dressage rider, I personally believe that dressage riders are scared riders. I'm not trying to condone hyperfexie but I think you must realize that doing sliding stops, spinning and other western exercises are -when done for extended periods- uncomfortable and painfull for the horse, just like rollkur. Too much of something is never good
@saminiky if you go and look the reining performances are all with veeeery loose reins. nothing like this cruelty i see here. these horses are in a painful position and the are forced to make innatural movements. reining is nothing compared to this cruelty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@LifeSally i wasn't saying that reining is with short reins. I meant that the movement a horse makes when it's making a sliding stop of spin, is just as bad (when it's done over and over again) as riding in hyperflexie al the time. The position the head is in ( in hyperflexie) is also natural, but only for a very short time, just like with spinning or sliding stops. In both cases it isn't good to do it to much, or to long.
@nymnariel i guess so, but if they really love their horses they would realize what they are doing to them and stop using rolkur. asking your horse to accept contact of the bit is one thing, rolkur is another
I would love to say that I've never seen rollkur used but I have. Its horrible, not one of the riders was even in balance, they were bracing and behind the vertical. such bad examples of what used to be a wonderful form of riding. Just look at the eyes on the horses, so much anxiety and pain is portrayed. Unfortunately people only care about winning, and feel animals were put here for them... Its just a warped mindset.
Hmmm..why is it bad? How about..IN EVERY SINGLE WAY!! It puts a lot of pressure on the horse's spine and 'causes breathing problems and I definitely sure its not comfortable for the horse. I can see doing hyperflexion for about..2 seconds if the horses is stiff, but never more than that!!
My trainer always told me to keep my horse's head on the vertical, which does look very nice, doesn't strain my horse, and she can also see where she is going. I see nothing wrong with a little bend and submissive behavior from the horse.
@BreyerProductions A little bend and submission is not wrong. There are some horses so tight you may have to get them behind the vertical to relax the jaw, but only very very slightly, nothing like these horses here. Submission is needed simply because the horse needs to respect you as leader to keep you safe and allow you both to perform well. However, the horses here are not in a respectful submission. They are being forecfully dominated to put them in a state of learned helplessness.
@daisyfields How can you know that these horses are being forced if you have were not there. im not saying is wrong or right but how can you judge someones actions if u cannot see this action directly
@lilXmrsXponyXjumper Because there are videos, conataining many of these horses that show how they are being ridden. Body language shows everything, even in pictures. Sometimes there is a bad moment, but the body language of horse and rider is slightly different in a quick instant that is caught than if it is a continuous action. You can look at the weight of riders'hands and the agnle of the bit even if you have trouble reading body language. If the horse is not being forced the bit hangs loose
@lilXmrsXponyXjumper Because a horse cannot actually survive in that position. he would never try to run like that...Would you? Just look at a horse in nature...that is how he was meant to move!
@daisyfields Though I am completely against the rollkur and hyperflexion, I can't agree that it necessarily ALWAYS means they are being "forcefully dominated." I've seen many horses, and rode one just last night, that over-flex with the slightest bit of pressure, and have to be encouraged to not do so. The horse I rode last night goes in a plain D-ring snaffle, and several times I had to "bump up" to get him to bring his nose forward to the vertical.
@ncissmart I'm not tryin to be mean, but I dont understand.. How do you see "happy" when you look at these horses. What gives u that impression? Perhaps do more research on horse behavior & expressions? Or watch horses with their riders. Pay close attention in particular to riders that u kno are making mistakes. Now watch the horses expression/reaction. Subtle expressions can speak volumes if people pay attention & translate PROPERLY. PLEASE try this, if u do, please share w/me any thoughts! :)
@BreyerProductions Overflexion to this point is not a 'little bend', its a gross over exaggeration. This is not bending at the poll, when I learned classical dressage the head was to be straight down, not tucked into the chest AND HELD THERE FOR LONG PERIODS.
Hi I was just wondering what you meant by saying 'you cannot have collection and hyperflexion at the same time', yet people use hyperflexion and piaffe/passage at the same time. However, that was not my main comment. At 1:35 '... the lower the head the more submission... if you lower the head the horse feels inferior...' These horses have to have some degree of confidence to get into that arena with the bright lights away from other horses. I hope you consider this polite discussion!
@cameronhall4 Yes, they do a piaffe/passage, but a fake one. If you look at the hind legs they fling out behind the horse instead of collecting upwards and inwards. This is because excessive bend of the neck locks the lumbar vertebrae of the horse, which is part of their spine. This makes the horse unable to round its back and collect into a proper piaffe/passage.
@cameronhall4 If you watch some of the horses trained in rollkur, they actually do freak out in the ring sometimes,like Isabell Werth's horse at the Olympics and Anky's Salinero taking off at an awards ceremony. Remember though, submission does not mean the horse cannot be desensitized to what will be in a large showring, so them not spooking is not always confidence but simply exposure.
@daisyfields I agree that they do get desensitized to the arena. But a horse trained any method will have their moments! You also need to look at the fact that if this method was really causing all these health problems these horses would not be able to keep competing at this level for as long as they do. Salinero has been international for 4 or more years! It is impossible to keep any athlete going if they have major medical issues, serious or otherwise. They have also taken dressage to a whole
@daisyfields new level. Dressage has been and eventual thing, gradually developing as horses become different(within the breeds) and more knowledge is aquired about the horse's body. You would not train a Hanoverian of today the exact same way you would have 20-30 years ago. Why? Because the Hanoverian of today is much different and way more improved than the Hanoverian of earlier times.Some riders use Rollkur in a horrible way. Others use it as a useful training tool for improvement, not abuse.
@juliethayden As with anything there are extremes. Many times you will hardly see the rider's hands move- and if the hind end did not engage correctly, the judges would not reward the pairs with great scores as the point of dressage is engagement/lightness/regularity. If you slow down ony the front end, the gait becomes irregular, and the movements awkward. It is stretching just as humans stretch when they work out-elongating the muscles for more range of movement and strength.
@cameronhall4 Whatever they may say about "stretching", "relaxing", etc this method was found out to force a horse to give in to a rider's will. Instead of a gentle dialogue between an animal and a man, here we have the case of so-called "domestic violence".
@cameronhall4 The term "to collect a horse" means keeping her balanced, which is very healthy for a horse itself. And never hurts her, actually. The rollkur is obviously a kind of a punishment, made look like a "method of training". "Do what I say and you won't be in pain".
@cameronhall4 Collection by classical principles is defined as the level of flexion in the 3 main joints of the hind legs. Work by Veterinarian Gerd Heuschmann has proven that this cannot be achieved when the horses head is pulled to it's chest. Bio-mechanically this is just impossible, his book explains more about it.
yes this does look REALLY uncomfortable and cant be good on the horses neck, it looks nice and is the correct way for dressage but even if you let the horses head move up a little, it would be a LOT better for the horse, i dont think the bits are wrong, unless they're used incorrectly, but its the forcing of the horses nose on its chest thats wrong :\ it makes my neck hurt looking at it
@JesusFreak494 but its obviously the pressure put on the bridle that makes the horses head like this, im right, correct? honeest question, because honestly I know uber little about dressage
@JaguarsShadow94 i should have put "correct" in quotes but (honest question) if its not the correct way why dont judges take off points? i dont know hardly anything about dressage
They do not use Rollkur during tournaments, but in training or at the preparation-place at tournaments. judges do not notice wether a horse is ridden with hyperflexion or not.
why cant people just ride proper dressage anymore? and for those of you who aren't aware what PROPER is just look up a video of Reiner Klimke riding and notice the difference between that an this. Though there are many mechanical differences (such as moving from the hindquarters) the one you will probably notice the most is that the head of Klimke's horse is not almost PARALLEL with the ground as it is made in rollkur.
my horse goes into an outline automatically when she's quite forward going, not when i force her neck in, so not all of us MEAN for them to do it, but i do agree some riders do force it on rather alot, but i dont see the problem with an outline if the horse is willing, its if they pull the head RIGHT into their neck it doesn't have the same affect :/
@xmisshowmanx No this video os not about OUTLINE its about HYPERFLEXTION < the over bend of the horses neck which is due to force and made to look good, as we probably all know it does not look good.
We can only hope that the negative "publicity" this abusive riding has generated will turn up the pressure on the FEI.
If you are interested in helping to end this kind of front-to-back riding and reviving classical dressage, please consider visiting the new not-for-profit dressagerevolution-dot-com.
using hf makes a horse appear trained to a higher level than he actually is. it is a very damaging and quickie way to get a horse sold. If you look at cavalries and the history of remount training, it is clear they discarded this method. It did not work, they needed well functioning horses that could jump x country as needed. hf fad will pass, hopefully sooner rather than later
People want winners and they don't care how their trainers get the job done. The paths to some world championships are littered with maimed and broken bodies.
I don't understand how any trainer can think that this hyperflexion actually IMPROVES their frame in any way! In every single photo or video of an overbent horse, they are all strung out through their backs and pulling themselves along with their front legs. It's a pathetic sight. They would look so much BETTER and more correct ridden with an ordinary bend, nose parallel to ground.
So when did the term "Overbent" go out of style? And what about "Heavy hands"! and since when do these horses exhibit 'Joi de vivre"? It's not rocket science - just ridiculous 'training' and bad horsemanship. I always suspected dressage poseurs where just ego trippers without much knowledge...go for a real ride on a horse that loves to be alive. That is heaven.
I think what people don't look at is that a gymnast will stretch and bend themselves beyond natural ability. They do this so it is easier and less straining when they perform their movements. This is in a sense where the Rollkur idealogy comes from. The big difference is gymnasts can rationalise the pain of what they are doing, horses cannot. Unfortunatley most are incredibly forgiving and long suffering, and riders get the results. very contraversial method. I ride long and low, not pinned.
The argument which states that Rollkur should be used as it lightens the forehand is akin to saying, "when you stop banging your head against that wall it will stop hurting". Scientific studies [that are not funded by proponents of HF] have shown that there are any athletic/physical benefits from hyperflexion. In fact, they state quite the opposite! It produces psychological and physical tension and should not be used - by anyone!
O.o woah information overload dude x) Yeah I've looked into this and agree with you, I see its place (moral or not) and I firmly believe long and low flexion work during sessions is essential, but I personally do nothing "hyper", I event and don't know why im in a dressage debate here xD the scientific effects (or defects) are the same in any sport if you look close enough. Old showjumpers get ligament strains, eventer's splints and worn joints etc. I don't really agree with rollkur as such.
this video is amazing.. so well explained.. i sat and watched and read the whole thing.. great job.. and hyperflexion .. people need to understand that its ok to do in warm- ups but for no more than a 5 minute period.. way to make this video.. and 5/5
This is a very educational video, pay attention! sustained over flexion as shown in this video is Rollkur. Of course it has an effect of putting more weight on the forehand. Any person with a slow motion button on their DVD player can see that the front feet spend more time on the ground when a horse is stuck in Rollkur. Those horses seem to keep one front foot on the ground as they "wave" the other in the air.
A little bit of l"long and low" can be useful, but a little bit goes a long way. Talented riders can cheat and (sometimes) get away with it better than average riders. Perhaps the essence of the classical method is that it keeps the average rider from ruining their horses.
I once asked Franz Rochowansky about the way Paul Shochemole used to ride his jumpers low in the neck. Franz told me, "Paul has a light hand and a VERY strong seat and leg. He works his horses low for a bit. Then he takes off the draw reins and rides them to the jumps in a beautiful balance. People see him do this and try to copy him. The problem is that few people ride as well as Paul!."
Are you fucking retarded, everyones english horse should frame/collect/be on the bit some what. It's over flexing that is damaging horses necks, shes obviously not saying let your horses neck go where ever. ITS ROLLKUR thats going to far. Don't bitch about stupid things and think you know everything. Think about the well being of your horse.
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Wow really. daisyfield you must have a lot of time on your hands to make all these stupid "hyperflextion" videos. how about you stop wasting time and make a video about something more important. ps no matter how hard you try your not going to get people to stop flexing thier horses because they do it so the horses are "collected" and i know you probably don't know what that means but basically it is when they carry thier feet under themselves so that they have better balance!
Bending a horses head into some insane degree doesnt make them collected. It just means that theyre head is pulled in. Do this test, get your horse into what you think is collection then throw the reigns away. If they stay in the same position then they are collected. If not, well then they clearly arent collected, arent carrying their feet under themselves and dont have better balance.
I made one video. Perhaps you should not waste your time watching all of these videos on here if it displeases you so. In collection the horses topline must round so the horse can sit back on its haunches, bringing the feet underneath. The neck is part of the spine and must round up as well to put the body in proper alignment for collection. The topline is stretched out in hyperflexion, not collected up and rounded. You cannot have hyperflexion and collection at the same time.
This video is for mature and polite discussion and you are more than welcome to discuss your views on the subject, but comments like this will be removed if continued.
@horseprincess31 Ok, OUTLINE < Helps with collection and the strenghthening of the back and hind quarter muscles, HYPERFLEXTION < is Getting the horse behind the bit into an uncomfortable, ugly and blind position where the horse or rider is not helped in anyway!! And Collecting is where the horses hindquarters come under the horse so as to feel a more comfortable and rounded position, this does not in any way help with their balance. i think you should learn something beforte commenting!
Well, look. You don't see horses trotting along in their paddocks with their heads on their chest, do you? Nope. You do see them on the bit, sometimes behind the bit, but never that extreme. Rollkur is horribly unnatural and cruel!
ROLLKUR BANNED BY THE FEI for all disciplines since today! Put under penalty! A great day for the horse. Now let's fight against Show-Dressage and return to fair and just riding that makes the horse physiologically and psychologically stronger instead of crippling it!
NO is hasnt been banned! Please check your information before posting such things. A yellow card system that would ban rders for 2 months has been enforced but no ban as of yet.
its insanety to even discuss if this is bad or not, just take a look at the horses in the wild. the difference is so big that you barely can see its the same species anymore even without this crap, just let the horses be like they are soposed to be to use a horse for your own pleasure and ignore that it is in pain is unforgivable these people should try this out on themself and see how it is
I have never seen a horse carry itself like that when moving around a paddock naturally. So it can't be good if it isn't a natural way to move or carry themselves
Excellent informative video, the sort of pictures we want plastered around the dressage arena to bring public awareness, and retraining of judges. I think these riders spell teamwork-teimwork because it's all I I I I
In the 40 years I have been riding, 25 of those dressage, I have NEVER seen this abusive thing! I am so glad I do not show anymore, It would kill me to see this in a show ring. Thank you author for talking about back to front riding! It is unbelievable how many people have not a CLUE what that is! The bit is a check&balance system, not a device of torture!! It is a quick fix gimmick. Seat&legs& communication w/horse is what makes movements-not this horror!
An enlightening and informative video, thank you. I've never advocated rollkur because it always looked forced and as if the horse was being held/forced into place but hadn't seen the physiological effects.
Over the years I have observed that people who lack skill, training and patience will always resort to a "tool" that gets the job done, but always at the cost of the animal. I have no respect for these impatient and talentless people.
Just try reading the book by Gerd Heuschman, if you had any doubt then this will persuade you that Rollkur is CRUEL, nothing more nothing less and has no place in the 'Harmonious, kind, being at one' type of riding as spouted by the FEI !!
- just LOOK at the eyes of the horse, that glazed, blanked out look is NOT good - then look at the eyes of the horses trained by Thomas Ritter, Philippe Karl and then tell me there is no abuse using Rollkur !
excellent informative video - dreadful abuse of the horse. If trained correctly, not for quick medals! the horse should come through from the hind quarters & then the head will be soft in the hand & forehand will be light - but then my horses are with me for life!!!
The definition of "hiperflexion and reads as follows:" Hiperflexion neck isa techniqueof training and working with a horse in order to ensure an adequate degree of longitudinal bending of the middle section of the neck. Hiperfleksja can not be maintained in the horse for too long. "The next steps set out at the meeting are: a more detailed definition of what is considered abuse (stress factors, pain, discomfort), and the training of stewards in the detection of possible misuse of this technique.
But I'm talking about hyperflexion the way it is actually used, not the way it is suppossed to be used. It's fine for a few moments, but those who use it do so for entire sessions, not just a few moments, and that does cause damage.
There is no evidence that the rollkur lead to any changes if it is used properly by experienced riders. However, the use of this technique by inexperienced riders may impair the welfare of horses. Emphasized the role of the world's top riders as models in these studies. Since the majority of participants considered the term "rollkur" is understandable, after a heated discussion was the proposed new deadline, "hiperfleksja neck" or excessive flexion of the neck. Part 2
Duhhh sorry, but if inexperienced people can't use it, then WHY experienced?? People at the top of our sport should set an example to people at the bottom as in the case of Dr Reiner Klimke - he would categorically state than anything he did with horses could and should be done by everyone. Just LOOK at the horses, this is not harmony with your horse, this is CRUELTY !!
After a thorough hearing reports of exercise physiology, radiology, biomechanics and kinetics associated with such a big inflection of the neck, and the training of horses, the committee concluded that if this technique is used by experienced riders, do not lead to any adverse effects to the horse .
I found it on any Veterinarian Site. The translation is not very good, because I used Transate.Google...
Rollkur as a training method used on horses and classes to the level of GP domination perfect control. According to veterinary research is not a painful way for a horse, or harmful (in terms of health)
Don't need any veterinary research to plainly see that this is out and out CRUELTY and must be BANNED immediately by the FEI on all competition grounds.
Gerd Heuschman is a veterinary and says that ROLLKUR does damage horses and has a video to prove it and a book!
I have a 4 1/2 year old Welsh Sec D who is an absolute dressage superstar. I backed him when he was 3, and we only hacked out until he was 4 - we didn't get anywhere near a school! I decided that he was sufficiently balanced to start schooling then, and a few weeks later we did a dressage test with 65%. He carries himself beautifully, has a spectacular medium trot and loves his leg yielding. Had I not allowed him to balance through hacking he would not be this good. Do I approve of rollkur? No!
Very helpful video. Ignorance may be bliss to the rider, but not for the horse. As horse owners we do our horses a service to learn all that we can about equine anatomy, function, saddle fit, etc.
Such an informative and knowledgable video. I'd love to send this every dressage judge on the face of this earth, because many of them obviously are too blind to see what Rollkur does to an athlete.
I've only purposely hyperflexed a horse once, for a few seconds, but it only made him a little more loose. But everything else I tried to do to make him bend - to make him more comfortable and balanced - failed to work, and I resulted to something I would never normally use.
As a rider who is still learning the feel for proper roundness, I've many times experienced Rollkur when I accidentally ask for too much and my horse slips into hyperflexion. It doesn't seem natural at all, and my horse nearly falls on his face because he is leaning on his forehand. There are other, true ways to get a horse supple and round. Roundness here meaning that the hind quarters are working underneath and the back lifted and in motion.
This is a very common misconception. Stretching can only occur with relaxed muscles. When the head is put in this position the horse locks their lumbar back area and abdomen. The position of the head doesn't allow them to round their backs normally so they lock those areas to counter-act the effects of gravity on those areas. Since they are locked and tensed, they cannot relax and stretch.
someone posted a comment asking for riders who don't use hyperflexion, i think anky van grunsven doesn't use hyperflexion, if i'm wrong, could someone please correct me?
i seriously hate hyperflexion. it flies in the face of every single Classical principle. and it not only causes intense discomfort, it also throws the horse onto the forehand (which is a no-no in dressage), limist the shoulders' mobility, and it can cause irreversible poll and neck damage.
if ppl would learn the theory behind dressage and actually care about their horse over their own success in a show, this wouldnt be happening. Grand Prix levels should be reached after a lifetime in the saddle and a deep love for the horse. its not something that can be rushed. but no, they want ribbons and they want them NOW! ppl should be disqualified for this, but instead theyre allowed to continue. RIDICULOUS. if i ever became a judge i would stop the ride if i saw it.
Comments like this do not stay up. This video is up for information and possibly debates, not starting flame wars. This happens in the western disciplines as well, although to a lesser extent. The barbed wire bits of barrel racing and peanut rollers of western pleasure are nothing to be proud of either. Each discipline has its problems and bad eggs so please be less disrespectful next time.
Some people do because they are ignorant, much like your statement shows you are, and the only way they can control their horses is with that. People do a lot of things that hurt their horses.
Neither do I, but you and I don't make up the entire barrel racing world. I'm not attacking barrel racing; I was responding to a comment about the cruelty of English riding by giving examples of cruelty other disciplines. It doesn't mean everyone does it or that discipline is bad. It was simply to show, as I stated, each type of riding has bad eggs.
Some of these horses look like they are chewing on the bit which is a sign of comfort, also notice the relaxed listening ears. I do agree that some of these animals not being ridden properly, taking the bit out never solves that problem. More horses sustain injury from unbalanced riders that do not know how to properly teach their horse, which muscle to use to fight the gravity of a rider. Oh by the way, a horse that is drooling is usually more comfortable than a horse that has a dry mouth.
Unfortunately with the still pictures you cannot tell if these horses are chewing or trying to evade the bit, or if they have floppy ears or not. My experience has been, however, that there is no chewing because the mouths are clamped so tight they cannot relax at all. This is also partly where the excessive drooling comes from. A little white lipstick is good, a chest covered in foamy saliva is a problem.
the FEI dressage rules say that the horse should have a MOIST mouth, not one that is foaming and unable to swallow - it is only drooling because of the position of the neck prevents the poor horse from swallowing!!
I do not ride, nor am I educated in the world of dressge. I have always enjoyed the art of dressge and was under the impression that it was about movement and the rider/horse working together in sync. After viewing this video I am sickened by this brutal technique. Again, I am not versed in this sport but I can see that it must be very painful for the horse. Please tell me there are professional riders out there who do not promote or practice this, can someone tell me who they are?
There are many out there who do not ride with this method. I don't know all them off the top of my head since I haven't been following dressage lately, but a few are Cesar Parra, Lisa Wilcox, and Robert Dover. However, unfortunately, it is becoming more and more trendy to use.
True collection comes from suppling and developing the horse through training wich is what the sport of dressage is all about. The rollkuer is used to speed up this process but riders pay the price in the end when there horses go behind the vertical.
Okay, I'm an ignorant hunter and I know next to nothing about dressage. What is Rollkur? Is that a word for hyperflexion? The horses in the video looked miserable and I know hyperflexion is extremely stressful and harmful. So why do they crank the head back to the point where the horse can barely breath? And how often is this done? What do you consider non-abusive Rollkur and what's the purpose of it to begin with?
Rollkur is another word for hyperflexion. People say it should only done for a few minutes, however, it is done for entire training sessions, sometimes over an hour at a time. The purpose is that those who use it claim it supples the horse and allows it to use its back and hindend more effectively. It should actually only ever be done for few seconds at a time at high collection if one desires to use it.
That seems really unnecessary. Especially to do it excessively like that. Lunging and side reins can achieve collection and suppleness and without the stress and damage.
they do it b/c its a supposedly "prettier" outline, and makes the horse more "willing" and "obedient". i wouldnt recommend using rollkur as a training technique. EVER. in a classical outline, the horses pole (bump btwn the ears) should be at the highest point and the neck should be an even, continuous arch, and the horses nose should either be on the vertical or just ever so slightly in front of it. rollkur goes against every single classical principle there is.
hyperflexion is over-bending the horses neck (hyper = excess, extension = bending). its supposedly to help the horse develop a "better" headset, but it does the opposite and can cause long-term injuries. that, and it flies in the face of all the Classical principles of dressage.
The problem is that is IS done wrong and excessively. If everyone did it a few times a session for a few seconds at a time this video wouldn't be here and there wouldn't be issue.
I understand what you are saying but I do think that there is almost a "stigma" now attached with hyperflexion. I'm sorry if that sounds a bit over-dramatic but I do feel like some people who use it (not in excess) are being attacked for it when they have done nothing wrong. Specially if your biggest medium is pictures which only captures a split second. I just wish people wouldnt be so biased.
I think that was the point of the video. Perhaps hyperflexion used in moderation (ie how they describe that it should be used) may not have as greater detrimental effects, but hyperflexion as it is actually practised by "the best in the world" is, for lack of a better description, just wrong.
People don't necessarily just "see what they want", they research it and in some cases ride it even, then form an opinion on it.
I agree with everything except the vision part, they can see more than their feet. Since they have eyes on the side of their head they can see much more. but i do agree that since their neck is so curled it impares it a little. but not like wat that picture said.
western pleasure not better...see "Reichert Celebration" on youtube !
drorydressage 4 months ago
enyone look at the horses eyes.... they look like there screaming for help..
tanner2254 4 months ago
What a great video!!! There are so many facts about anatomy and correct and natural movement. I must wonder if some of the people leaving argumentative comments actually read it all or understand enough about bio-mechanics to get why this is so damaging to the horse! NO horse naturally moves around with it's head in this position for more than a few seconds. Overuse of tendons and ligaments results in long-term sometimes irreversible damage. Nice job daisyfields!!!! Shared in facebook!
herdingdrive 6 months ago
Is anyone besides me aware of the fact that there are 100.000 of these movies on youtube, and that each and everyone of them contain the same pictures and phrases?
LouTaat 6 months ago
Comment removed
LouTaat 6 months ago
Hyperflexion is not always cruel. Sometimes you use it on a horse who is younger and who needs to know, but in order for it not to be abusive you need to soften as it learns and of course you can't HYPER, HYPERFLEX.
dmenkhau 6 months ago
Ein Pferd sollte ein Partner sein und sich nicht unterwerfen müssen.
Was für ein Blödsinn!!!
ANNA10038 9 months ago
I will tell you the sercet of Rollkur, trainers use this to restrict oxygen to the brain of the horse the horses throax closes up. With less oxygen to the brain the horse then becomes calm and lightheaded and slows down because of to much carbon monoxide in the blood then the horse learns to be submissive to the rider's every comand because of fear of suffcation. Just like when a lion attacks a zebra it will go for the throax and then the drop down so liken these people to beasts of the feld.
LORIM8810 9 months ago
ok i'm confused i'm really not a dressage person i preffer jumping. WHAT is going on? i do realize that the horse's neck is uncomfortably arched but what else? And i believe people that anky is a good rider (meaning she doesnt fall every five seconds) , but a bad trainer.
TheGreatGumsy 11 months ago
Rolkur is so horrible.
rainydayz714 11 months ago
Okay maybe it's not natural. But sliding stops and spinning with the horse on the back legs and al those things aren't natural eighter.
saminiky 11 months ago
@saminiky Actually, sliding stops are natural. I've seen horses do it after a bluff charge at another horse. Not as extreme, but they do it. Regardless, neither of the things you mentioned are painful and bad for the horses health.
XceptingDeniall 10 months ago
@XceptingDeniall ok, a horse might show this behaviour in the wild, so it's natural when not shown not in the extreme. Then rollkur is natural to, when not shown in extreme. Like a stallion who want's to impress a mare
saminiky 10 months ago
@saminiky I've never seen a stallion press his chin all the way to his chest to impress a mare. Even if they did, there is still a difference. Sliding stops and reining are not painful unless the horse takes a tumble. Rollkur is painful in itself.
XceptingDeniall 10 months ago
@XceptingDeniall it there any way I can send you a picture?
saminiky 10 months ago
@saminiky I think you can link it here, try that.
But even if they do hyperflex at times to impress a mare, there's no way they go around for extended periods of times doing it. It's uncomfortable and painful after a while.
XceptingDeniall 10 months ago
@XceptingDeniall I tried to put a link but it seems that youtube doesn't want links in the comments. But if you just type: 'stallion impressing mare' in google and then click pictures, the 5the picture is a litle stallion with his chin -as good as- on his chest. (it might not be the same picture you get but you'll see what I mean :-))
saminiky 10 months ago
@saminiky The rearing grulla/blue roan? What he's doing doesn't look uncomfortable, I see horses do that a lot. Doesn't look like hyperflexion to me, and once he went down he most likely would have stopped. But if you type in hyperflexion into google, the extremes to which it is done is horrible. I never condoned sliding stops or reining, frankly I see no point in either one, and I don't doubt that they can become uncomfortable for the horse. But it doesn't compare to rollkur in my book.
XceptingDeniall 10 months ago
@XceptingDeniall I'm not a dressage rider, I personally believe that dressage riders are scared riders. I'm not trying to condone hyperfexie but I think you must realize that doing sliding stops, spinning and other western exercises are -when done for extended periods- uncomfortable and painfull for the horse, just like rollkur. Too much of something is never good
saminiky 10 months ago
@saminiky if you go and look the reining performances are all with veeeery loose reins. nothing like this cruelty i see here. these horses are in a painful position and the are forced to make innatural movements. reining is nothing compared to this cruelty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LifeSally 9 months ago
@LifeSally shure, what ever you say...
saminiky 9 months ago
@LifeSally i wasn't saying that reining is with short reins. I meant that the movement a horse makes when it's making a sliding stop of spin, is just as bad (when it's done over and over again) as riding in hyperflexie al the time. The position the head is in ( in hyperflexie) is also natural, but only for a very short time, just like with spinning or sliding stops. In both cases it isn't good to do it to much, or to long.
saminiky 9 months ago
Not to mention it looks hideous, ridiculous and ugly.
MsFeege 1 year ago
why did you censor these cruel animal abusers????? they deserves to have the world know what awful people they are!
maclaydreamer87 1 year ago
@maclaydreamer87, they aren't terrible people. Moreover, I'm sure they really DO love horses.
But they ARE as well slaves of their medals and status.
But of course this doesn't diminish the harm caused to a horse.
nymnariel 1 year ago
@nymnariel i guess so, but if they really love their horses they would realize what they are doing to them and stop using rolkur. asking your horse to accept contact of the bit is one thing, rolkur is another
maclaydreamer87 1 year ago
ihr seid doch krank die armen pferde stellt euch mal vor ihr muss die ganze zeit den kopf runtergeschnallt bekommen ..:(
Holidays95 1 year ago
I would love to say that I've never seen rollkur used but I have. Its horrible, not one of the riders was even in balance, they were bracing and behind the vertical. such bad examples of what used to be a wonderful form of riding. Just look at the eyes on the horses, so much anxiety and pain is portrayed. Unfortunately people only care about winning, and feel animals were put here for them... Its just a warped mindset.
lizzyj9386 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Please read "The end of the idealisme around Gerd Heuschmann" here :
forum scandinavian dressage
discussions entre forumeurs
Vision10335 1 year ago
Pferd am Zügel ?
- Schön und gut.
Aber so ?
- Völlig übertrieben, schmerzhaft für's Pferd, hat nichts mehr mit reiten zu tun.
Rollkur ? NEIN !!!
LiLaLailaaa 1 year ago
Hmmm..why is it bad? How about..IN EVERY SINGLE WAY!! It puts a lot of pressure on the horse's spine and 'causes breathing problems and I definitely sure its not comfortable for the horse. I can see doing hyperflexion for about..2 seconds if the horses is stiff, but never more than that!!
edlovehorses 1 year ago
Seems to be he best video so far i have watched on rollkur and hyperflexion
Well Done!!
Delighted that the truth is out
Minztrelisinheaven1 1 year ago
Anything forced can never be beautiful... Agreed!
vivifies 1 year ago 15
Hey. Thanks for your vid, i found it really educatiopn and professional. goodluck. :)
CHICKPEA20 1 year ago
what a crock....riding is not about submission..it's about partnership
mssmayhem 1 year ago 3
My trainer always told me to keep my horse's head on the vertical, which does look very nice, doesn't strain my horse, and she can also see where she is going. I see nothing wrong with a little bend and submissive behavior from the horse.
BreyerProductions 1 year ago 8
@BreyerProductions A little bend and submission is not wrong. There are some horses so tight you may have to get them behind the vertical to relax the jaw, but only very very slightly, nothing like these horses here. Submission is needed simply because the horse needs to respect you as leader to keep you safe and allow you both to perform well. However, the horses here are not in a respectful submission. They are being forecfully dominated to put them in a state of learned helplessness.
daisyfields 1 year ago 12
@daisyfields How can you know that these horses are being forced if you have were not there. im not saying is wrong or right but how can you judge someones actions if u cannot see this action directly
lilXmrsXponyXjumper 1 year ago
@lilXmrsXponyXjumper Because there are videos, conataining many of these horses that show how they are being ridden. Body language shows everything, even in pictures. Sometimes there is a bad moment, but the body language of horse and rider is slightly different in a quick instant that is caught than if it is a continuous action. You can look at the weight of riders'hands and the agnle of the bit even if you have trouble reading body language. If the horse is not being forced the bit hangs loose
daisyfields 1 year ago 5
@lilXmrsXponyXjumper
exactly! me horse does this too sometimes without me asking anything!
XLiseuh 1 year ago
@lilXmrsXponyXjumper Because a horse cannot actually survive in that position. he would never try to run like that...Would you? Just look at a horse in nature...that is how he was meant to move!
hyperfocus2011 9 months ago
@daisyfields Though I am completely against the rollkur and hyperflexion, I can't agree that it necessarily ALWAYS means they are being "forcefully dominated." I've seen many horses, and rode one just last night, that over-flex with the slightest bit of pressure, and have to be encouraged to not do so. The horse I rode last night goes in a plain D-ring snaffle, and several times I had to "bump up" to get him to bring his nose forward to the vertical.
showjumpinluv 3 weeks ago
@BreyerProductions
Yep I also think the horses in this video they are loking very happy. I'm riding show jumping in a higher level but i don't like this vid.
ncissmart 1 year ago
@ncissmart I'm not tryin to be mean, but I dont understand.. How do you see "happy" when you look at these horses. What gives u that impression? Perhaps do more research on horse behavior & expressions? Or watch horses with their riders. Pay close attention in particular to riders that u kno are making mistakes. Now watch the horses expression/reaction. Subtle expressions can speak volumes if people pay attention & translate PROPERLY. PLEASE try this, if u do, please share w/me any thoughts! :)
4Champ2and0 1 year ago
@BreyerProductions On the verticle is straight up and down along the face...Under the verticle is chin to chest...Which is not GOOD.
hyperfocus2011 9 months ago
@BreyerProductions Overflexion to this point is not a 'little bend', its a gross over exaggeration. This is not bending at the poll, when I learned classical dressage the head was to be straight down, not tucked into the chest AND HELD THERE FOR LONG PERIODS.
KelticGypsy 8 months ago
Hi I was just wondering what you meant by saying 'you cannot have collection and hyperflexion at the same time', yet people use hyperflexion and piaffe/passage at the same time. However, that was not my main comment. At 1:35 '... the lower the head the more submission... if you lower the head the horse feels inferior...' These horses have to have some degree of confidence to get into that arena with the bright lights away from other horses. I hope you consider this polite discussion!
cameronhall4 1 year ago
@cameronhall4 Yes, they do a piaffe/passage, but a fake one. If you look at the hind legs they fling out behind the horse instead of collecting upwards and inwards. This is because excessive bend of the neck locks the lumbar vertebrae of the horse, which is part of their spine. This makes the horse unable to round its back and collect into a proper piaffe/passage.
daisyfields 1 year ago
@cameronhall4 If you watch some of the horses trained in rollkur, they actually do freak out in the ring sometimes,like Isabell Werth's horse at the Olympics and Anky's Salinero taking off at an awards ceremony. Remember though, submission does not mean the horse cannot be desensitized to what will be in a large showring, so them not spooking is not always confidence but simply exposure.
daisyfields 1 year ago 4
@daisyfields I agree that they do get desensitized to the arena. But a horse trained any method will have their moments! You also need to look at the fact that if this method was really causing all these health problems these horses would not be able to keep competing at this level for as long as they do. Salinero has been international for 4 or more years! It is impossible to keep any athlete going if they have major medical issues, serious or otherwise. They have also taken dressage to a whole
cameronhall4 1 year ago
@daisyfields new level. Dressage has been and eventual thing, gradually developing as horses become different(within the breeds) and more knowledge is aquired about the horse's body. You would not train a Hanoverian of today the exact same way you would have 20-30 years ago. Why? Because the Hanoverian of today is much different and way more improved than the Hanoverian of earlier times.Some riders use Rollkur in a horrible way. Others use it as a useful training tool for improvement, not abuse.
cameronhall4 1 year ago
@cameronhall4 Collection comes from behind, if you are yanking on the front end to slow them down they can't engage they're hind end correctly.
you should look up rollkur blue tongue and then form your opinions on the movement..
juliethayden 1 year ago
@juliethayden As with anything there are extremes. Many times you will hardly see the rider's hands move- and if the hind end did not engage correctly, the judges would not reward the pairs with great scores as the point of dressage is engagement/lightness/regularity. If you slow down ony the front end, the gait becomes irregular, and the movements awkward. It is stretching just as humans stretch when they work out-elongating the muscles for more range of movement and strength.
cameronhall4 1 year ago
@cameronhall4 Whatever they may say about "stretching", "relaxing", etc this method was found out to force a horse to give in to a rider's will. Instead of a gentle dialogue between an animal and a man, here we have the case of so-called "domestic violence".
nymnariel 1 year ago
@cameronhall4 The term "to collect a horse" means keeping her balanced, which is very healthy for a horse itself. And never hurts her, actually. The rollkur is obviously a kind of a punishment, made look like a "method of training". "Do what I say and you won't be in pain".
nymnariel 1 year ago
@cameronhall4 Collection by classical principles is defined as the level of flexion in the 3 main joints of the hind legs. Work by Veterinarian Gerd Heuschmann has proven that this cannot be achieved when the horses head is pulled to it's chest. Bio-mechanically this is just impossible, his book explains more about it.
Glykyrrhiza 4 months ago
yes this does look REALLY uncomfortable and cant be good on the horses neck, it looks nice and is the correct way for dressage but even if you let the horses head move up a little, it would be a LOT better for the horse, i dont think the bits are wrong, unless they're used incorrectly, but its the forcing of the horses nose on its chest thats wrong :\ it makes my neck hurt looking at it
JesusFreak494 1 year ago
@JesusFreak494 but its obviously the pressure put on the bridle that makes the horses head like this, im right, correct? honeest question, because honestly I know uber little about dressage
JesusFreak494 1 year ago
@JesusFreak494
It is NOT the correct way for dressage.
The correct way would be:
The horse´s nose is slightly before the vertical.
JaguarsShadow94 1 year ago
@JaguarsShadow94 i should have put "correct" in quotes but (honest question) if its not the correct way why dont judges take off points? i dont know hardly anything about dressage
JesusFreak494 1 year ago
@JesusFreak494
They do not use Rollkur during tournaments, but in training or at the preparation-place at tournaments. judges do not notice wether a horse is ridden with hyperflexion or not.
JaguarsShadow94 1 year ago
@JaguarsShadow94 o ok thanks :)
JesusFreak494 1 year ago
A real shame, my english is too bad - unfortunately i don´t understand the hints - but the pictures.... lacerate my heart!!! ;-(
It´s so blue!!!
the "Riders" must to feel intense shame!!
crapa79 1 year ago
Could someone explain to me how they can see where they're going?
Radol21 1 year ago
why cant people just ride proper dressage anymore? and for those of you who aren't aware what PROPER is just look up a video of Reiner Klimke riding and notice the difference between that an this. Though there are many mechanical differences (such as moving from the hindquarters) the one you will probably notice the most is that the head of Klimke's horse is not almost PARALLEL with the ground as it is made in rollkur.
Spritzer45 1 year ago
my horse goes into an outline automatically when she's quite forward going, not when i force her neck in, so not all of us MEAN for them to do it, but i do agree some riders do force it on rather alot, but i dont see the problem with an outline if the horse is willing, its if they pull the head RIGHT into their neck it doesn't have the same affect :/
xmisshowmanx 1 year ago
@xmisshowmanx No this video os not about OUTLINE its about HYPERFLEXTION < the over bend of the horses neck which is due to force and made to look good, as we probably all know it does not look good.
Agilitypoodle385 1 year ago
@Agilitypoodle385 Ah okay, sorry... and yeah I agree, too much bend in the horses neck looks pretty awful and it doesnt really look natural.
xmisshowmanx 1 year ago
Yes intellectually lazy!
BabaaNii 1 year ago
Excellent video.
We can only hope that the negative "publicity" this abusive riding has generated will turn up the pressure on the FEI.
If you are interested in helping to end this kind of front-to-back riding and reviving classical dressage, please consider visiting the new not-for-profit dressagerevolution-dot-com.
dressagerevolution 1 year ago
i think it would be MORE intensive if there were some music ;)
ThexMinE 1 year ago
I had music but youtube removed it unfortunately.
daisyfields 1 year ago
@daisyfields yes, i thought as much.
ThexMinE 1 year ago
using hf makes a horse appear trained to a higher level than he actually is. it is a very damaging and quickie way to get a horse sold. If you look at cavalries and the history of remount training, it is clear they discarded this method. It did not work, they needed well functioning horses that could jump x country as needed. hf fad will pass, hopefully sooner rather than later
SHOJMPR42 1 year ago
People want winners and they don't care how their trainers get the job done. The paths to some world championships are littered with maimed and broken bodies.
GoingForBroken 1 year ago
I don't understand how any trainer can think that this hyperflexion actually IMPROVES their frame in any way! In every single photo or video of an overbent horse, they are all strung out through their backs and pulling themselves along with their front legs. It's a pathetic sight. They would look so much BETTER and more correct ridden with an ordinary bend, nose parallel to ground.
maximumsabino 1 year ago
So when did the term "Overbent" go out of style? And what about "Heavy hands"! and since when do these horses exhibit 'Joi de vivre"? It's not rocket science - just ridiculous 'training' and bad horsemanship. I always suspected dressage poseurs where just ego trippers without much knowledge...go for a real ride on a horse that loves to be alive. That is heaven.
TheFarissah 1 year ago
Thank you for your explanations.
kotapaint1 2 years ago
I think what people don't look at is that a gymnast will stretch and bend themselves beyond natural ability. They do this so it is easier and less straining when they perform their movements. This is in a sense where the Rollkur idealogy comes from. The big difference is gymnasts can rationalise the pain of what they are doing, horses cannot. Unfortunatley most are incredibly forgiving and long suffering, and riders get the results. very contraversial method. I ride long and low, not pinned.
AdrenalineArt 2 years ago 3
The argument which states that Rollkur should be used as it lightens the forehand is akin to saying, "when you stop banging your head against that wall it will stop hurting". Scientific studies [that are not funded by proponents of HF] have shown that there are any athletic/physical benefits from hyperflexion. In fact, they state quite the opposite! It produces psychological and physical tension and should not be used - by anyone!
jjclimb69 2 years ago
Opps....should read "lightens the forehand after it's performed..."
jjclimb69 2 years ago
Sorry again....tired...should read "AREN'T any athletic.....going to bed now!
jjclimb69 2 years ago
O.o woah information overload dude x) Yeah I've looked into this and agree with you, I see its place (moral or not) and I firmly believe long and low flexion work during sessions is essential, but I personally do nothing "hyper", I event and don't know why im in a dressage debate here xD the scientific effects (or defects) are the same in any sport if you look close enough. Old showjumpers get ligament strains, eventer's splints and worn joints etc. I don't really agree with rollkur as such.
AdrenalineArt 2 years ago
Thank you!
dtwmbld 2 years ago
this video is amazing.. so well explained.. i sat and watched and read the whole thing.. great job.. and hyperflexion .. people need to understand that its ok to do in warm- ups but for no more than a 5 minute period.. way to make this video.. and 5/5
fieldrider08 2 years ago
This is a very educational video, pay attention! sustained over flexion as shown in this video is Rollkur. Of course it has an effect of putting more weight on the forehand. Any person with a slow motion button on their DVD player can see that the front feet spend more time on the ground when a horse is stuck in Rollkur. Those horses seem to keep one front foot on the ground as they "wave" the other in the air.
zorrospal 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
A little bit of l"long and low" can be useful, but a little bit goes a long way. Talented riders can cheat and (sometimes) get away with it better than average riders. Perhaps the essence of the classical method is that it keeps the average rider from ruining their horses.
hughcwhite 2 years ago
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I once asked Franz Rochowansky about the way Paul Shochemole used to ride his jumpers low in the neck. Franz told me, "Paul has a light hand and a VERY strong seat and leg. He works his horses low for a bit. Then he takes off the draw reins and rides them to the jumps in a beautiful balance. People see him do this and try to copy him. The problem is that few people ride as well as Paul!."
hughcwhite 2 years ago
"horseprincess31'
Are you fucking retarded, everyones english horse should frame/collect/be on the bit some what. It's over flexing that is damaging horses necks, shes obviously not saying let your horses neck go where ever. ITS ROLLKUR thats going to far. Don't bitch about stupid things and think you know everything. Think about the well being of your horse.
N1CH00L3 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Wow really. daisyfield you must have a lot of time on your hands to make all these stupid "hyperflextion" videos. how about you stop wasting time and make a video about something more important. ps no matter how hard you try your not going to get people to stop flexing thier horses because they do it so the horses are "collected" and i know you probably don't know what that means but basically it is when they carry thier feet under themselves so that they have better balance!
horseprincess31 2 years ago
Bending a horses head into some insane degree doesnt make them collected. It just means that theyre head is pulled in. Do this test, get your horse into what you think is collection then throw the reigns away. If they stay in the same position then they are collected. If not, well then they clearly arent collected, arent carrying their feet under themselves and dont have better balance.
epona202 2 years ago
I made one video. Perhaps you should not waste your time watching all of these videos on here if it displeases you so. In collection the horses topline must round so the horse can sit back on its haunches, bringing the feet underneath. The neck is part of the spine and must round up as well to put the body in proper alignment for collection. The topline is stretched out in hyperflexion, not collected up and rounded. You cannot have hyperflexion and collection at the same time.
daisyfields 2 years ago
This video is for mature and polite discussion and you are more than welcome to discuss your views on the subject, but comments like this will be removed if continued.
daisyfields 2 years ago
@horseprincess31 Ok, OUTLINE < Helps with collection and the strenghthening of the back and hind quarter muscles, HYPERFLEXTION < is Getting the horse behind the bit into an uncomfortable, ugly and blind position where the horse or rider is not helped in anyway!! And Collecting is where the horses hindquarters come under the horse so as to feel a more comfortable and rounded position, this does not in any way help with their balance. i think you should learn something beforte commenting!
Agilitypoodle385 1 year ago
stop hyperflexion! x(
SillySillx 2 years ago
Look at the eyes - the eyes say it all - this is painful, very painful.
TheAnnestube 2 years ago
check out phillippe Karl's ride: Piaffe and his reins are so LOOSE they loop.
Rollkur is unneccessary and cruel.
Filidhe 2 years ago 17
please send this video!!
CherokeeCheval 2 years ago
Well, look. You don't see horses trotting along in their paddocks with their heads on their chest, do you? Nope. You do see them on the bit, sometimes behind the bit, but never that extreme. Rollkur is horribly unnatural and cruel!
slitheenvsrose 2 years ago 2
ROLLKUR BANNED BY THE FEI for all disciplines since today! Put under penalty! A great day for the horse. Now let's fight against Show-Dressage and return to fair and just riding that makes the horse physiologically and psychologically stronger instead of crippling it!
ItsMe490 2 years ago
NO is hasnt been banned! Please check your information before posting such things. A yellow card system that would ban rders for 2 months has been enforced but no ban as of yet.
hattie2525 2 years ago
*P*E*R*F*E*C*T instruction video!
Hasel50 2 years ago
its insanety to even discuss if this is bad or not, just take a look at the horses in the wild. the difference is so big that you barely can see its the same species anymore even without this crap, just let the horses be like they are soposed to be to use a horse for your own pleasure and ignore that it is in pain is unforgivable these people should try this out on themself and see how it is
Nightcrawlerinsweden 2 years ago
I have never seen a horse carry itself like that when moving around a paddock naturally. So it can't be good if it isn't a natural way to move or carry themselves
mskfurl 2 years ago 4
Excellent informative video, the sort of pictures we want plastered around the dressage arena to bring public awareness, and retraining of judges. I think these riders spell teamwork-teimwork because it's all I I I I
Safwentay 2 years ago 2
In the 40 years I have been riding, 25 of those dressage, I have NEVER seen this abusive thing! I am so glad I do not show anymore, It would kill me to see this in a show ring. Thank you author for talking about back to front riding! It is unbelievable how many people have not a CLUE what that is! The bit is a check&balance system, not a device of torture!! It is a quick fix gimmick. Seat&legs& communication w/horse is what makes movements-not this horror!
froggiesheins 2 years ago
This was a very informative video, thank you! I always see videos for and against rollkur but no one ever seems to give a reason besides it looks bad.
And no I cannot imagine walking around let alone performing movements and running with my head like that...it hurts to just look at the pictures..
kate6917 2 years ago
An enlightening and informative video, thank you. I've never advocated rollkur because it always looked forced and as if the horse was being held/forced into place but hadn't seen the physiological effects.
Keep up the good work
portfoliochef 2 years ago
Over the years I have observed that people who lack skill, training and patience will always resort to a "tool" that gets the job done, but always at the cost of the animal. I have no respect for these impatient and talentless people.
helpfoals 2 years ago 2
Informative video - thanks :)
What if YOU walked like these horses do, with YOUR head down and back??
YOU couldn't breathe, YOUR neck would hurt, looking at your feet ONLY - You would stumble
Think and act as YOU would like to be treated.
What a life these horses live - just to please these idiots!!
johnnypetersen 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
its not abuse!!!!!!!!
showjumpergirl11 2 years ago
In exactly which way/s is the use of hyperflexion, as shown here, for training of the horse not abusive physically and/or mentally.
daisyfields 2 years ago
Just try reading the book by Gerd Heuschman, if you had any doubt then this will persuade you that Rollkur is CRUEL, nothing more nothing less and has no place in the 'Harmonious, kind, being at one' type of riding as spouted by the FEI !!
BanRollkur 2 years ago
- just LOOK at the eyes of the horse, that glazed, blanked out look is NOT good - then look at the eyes of the horses trained by Thomas Ritter, Philippe Karl and then tell me there is no abuse using Rollkur !
BanRollkur 2 years ago
Comment removed
1goldengal 2 years ago
Comment removed
MrsLatinbabe 2 years ago
Why not? Because I like my horses.
Arab Western Pleasure is a good example of Rollkur in the western world. Not sure which came first.
Yzenrider 2 years ago
Hey, they do it in western too, not just in dressage.
FreddyOgSigrid 2 years ago
This is what we need! Education!
rollkurisbad 2 years ago 3
excellent informative video - dreadful abuse of the horse. If trained correctly, not for quick medals! the horse should come through from the hind quarters & then the head will be soft in the hand & forehand will be light - but then my horses are with me for life!!!
silverarab 2 years ago 11
People are so disgusting.
Their behaviour disgusts me.
marigold321 2 years ago 2
Hallo!
Should I translate your clip to Hungarian? I think, we can stop this horror before it's dispersing in our country...
Szilvike001 2 years ago
disgusting
helenhorse 2 years ago 3
The definition of "hiperflexion and reads as follows:" Hiperflexion neck isa techniqueof training and working with a horse in order to ensure an adequate degree of longitudinal bending of the middle section of the neck. Hiperfleksja can not be maintained in the horse for too long. "The next steps set out at the meeting are: a more detailed definition of what is considered abuse (stress factors, pain, discomfort), and the training of stewards in the detection of possible misuse of this technique.
HannoverianLoverxD 2 years ago
But I'm talking about hyperflexion the way it is actually used, not the way it is suppossed to be used. It's fine for a few moments, but those who use it do so for entire sessions, not just a few moments, and that does cause damage.
daisyfields 2 years ago
There is no evidence that the rollkur lead to any changes if it is used properly by experienced riders. However, the use of this technique by inexperienced riders may impair the welfare of horses. Emphasized the role of the world's top riders as models in these studies. Since the majority of participants considered the term "rollkur" is understandable, after a heated discussion was the proposed new deadline, "hiperfleksja neck" or excessive flexion of the neck. Part 2
HannoverianLoverxD 2 years ago
Duhhh sorry, but if inexperienced people can't use it, then WHY experienced?? People at the top of our sport should set an example to people at the bottom as in the case of Dr Reiner Klimke - he would categorically state than anything he did with horses could and should be done by everyone. Just LOOK at the horses, this is not harmony with your horse, this is CRUELTY !!
BanRollkur 2 years ago
After a thorough hearing reports of exercise physiology, radiology, biomechanics and kinetics associated with such a big inflection of the neck, and the training of horses, the committee concluded that if this technique is used by experienced riders, do not lead to any adverse effects to the horse .
Part 1
HannoverianLoverxD 2 years ago
I found it on any Veterinarian Site. The translation is not very good, because I used Transate.Google...
Rollkur as a training method used on horses and classes to the level of GP domination perfect control. According to veterinary research is not a painful way for a horse, or harmful (in terms of health)
HannoverianLoverxD 2 years ago
Don't need any veterinary research to plainly see that this is out and out CRUELTY and must be BANNED immediately by the FEI on all competition grounds.
Gerd Heuschman is a veterinary and says that ROLLKUR does damage horses and has a video to prove it and a book!
BanRollkur 2 years ago
I have a 4 1/2 year old Welsh Sec D who is an absolute dressage superstar. I backed him when he was 3, and we only hacked out until he was 4 - we didn't get anywhere near a school! I decided that he was sufficiently balanced to start schooling then, and a few weeks later we did a dressage test with 65%. He carries himself beautifully, has a spectacular medium trot and loves his leg yielding. Had I not allowed him to balance through hacking he would not be this good. Do I approve of rollkur? No!
fatfighter4eva 2 years ago
But training is training ;/
And nobody can change it. They WILL use Rollkur. And if FEI didn't forbid that so they will use it...
So How i said, traing is training...
HannoverianLoverxD 2 years ago
Very helpful video. Ignorance may be bliss to the rider, but not for the horse. As horse owners we do our horses a service to learn all that we can about equine anatomy, function, saddle fit, etc.
mauifarrier 2 years ago
Such an informative and knowledgable video. I'd love to send this every dressage judge on the face of this earth, because many of them obviously are too blind to see what Rollkur does to an athlete.
I've only purposely hyperflexed a horse once, for a few seconds, but it only made him a little more loose. But everything else I tried to do to make him bend - to make him more comfortable and balanced - failed to work, and I resulted to something I would never normally use.
pinknessxlee 2 years ago
As a rider who is still learning the feel for proper roundness, I've many times experienced Rollkur when I accidentally ask for too much and my horse slips into hyperflexion. It doesn't seem natural at all, and my horse nearly falls on his face because he is leaning on his forehand. There are other, true ways to get a horse supple and round. Roundness here meaning that the hind quarters are working underneath and the back lifted and in motion.
pinknessxlee 2 years ago
What Rollkur does to an athlete?
It makes him more athletic....
bizzybijtje 2 years ago
How does hyperflexion improve the athleticism of the horse?
daisyfields 2 years ago
It stretches the muscles in the horse's back....
bizzybijtje 2 years ago
This is a very common misconception. Stretching can only occur with relaxed muscles. When the head is put in this position the horse locks their lumbar back area and abdomen. The position of the head doesn't allow them to round their backs normally so they lock those areas to counter-act the effects of gravity on those areas. Since they are locked and tensed, they cannot relax and stretch.
daisyfields 2 years ago
someone posted a comment asking for riders who don't use hyperflexion, i think anky van grunsven doesn't use hyperflexion, if i'm wrong, could someone please correct me?
jumperluvr12 2 years ago
Anky van Grunsven is the largest user of hyperflexion in dressage.
daisyfields 2 years ago
i seriously hate hyperflexion. it flies in the face of every single Classical principle. and it not only causes intense discomfort, it also throws the horse onto the forehand (which is a no-no in dressage), limist the shoulders' mobility, and it can cause irreversible poll and neck damage.
chrissyluvhorsey 2 years ago 2
That's sad.. for the horses and the people!
ChocolateIMuffin 2 years ago
if ppl would learn the theory behind dressage and actually care about their horse over their own success in a show, this wouldnt be happening. Grand Prix levels should be reached after a lifetime in the saddle and a deep love for the horse. its not something that can be rushed. but no, they want ribbons and they want them NOW! ppl should be disqualified for this, but instead theyre allowed to continue. RIDICULOUS. if i ever became a judge i would stop the ride if i saw it.
gsukrw06 2 years ago
Comments like this do not stay up. This video is up for information and possibly debates, not starting flame wars. This happens in the western disciplines as well, although to a lesser extent. The barbed wire bits of barrel racing and peanut rollers of western pleasure are nothing to be proud of either. Each discipline has its problems and bad eggs so please be less disrespectful next time.
daisyfields 2 years ago
barrel racers do not used barb wired bits that would injur the horse stupid!
em352 2 years ago
Some people do because they are ignorant, much like your statement shows you are, and the only way they can control their horses is with that. People do a lot of things that hurt their horses.
daisyfields 2 years ago
i dont even use a bit with barrel horse at all!
em352 2 years ago
Neither do I, but you and I don't make up the entire barrel racing world. I'm not attacking barrel racing; I was responding to a comment about the cruelty of English riding by giving examples of cruelty other disciplines. It doesn't mean everyone does it or that discipline is bad. It was simply to show, as I stated, each type of riding has bad eggs.
daisyfields 2 years ago
Some of these horses look like they are chewing on the bit which is a sign of comfort, also notice the relaxed listening ears. I do agree that some of these animals not being ridden properly, taking the bit out never solves that problem. More horses sustain injury from unbalanced riders that do not know how to properly teach their horse, which muscle to use to fight the gravity of a rider. Oh by the way, a horse that is drooling is usually more comfortable than a horse that has a dry mouth.
missjax2011 2 years ago
Unfortunately with the still pictures you cannot tell if these horses are chewing or trying to evade the bit, or if they have floppy ears or not. My experience has been, however, that there is no chewing because the mouths are clamped so tight they cannot relax at all. This is also partly where the excessive drooling comes from. A little white lipstick is good, a chest covered in foamy saliva is a problem.
daisyfields 2 years ago
you think this horses are looking RELAXED?!
sorry, but I think you're joking.
no one of this horses looks like a happy one. and every rider who thinks that, is absolutely unprofessional!
Bijouxly 2 years ago 3
the FEI dressage rules say that the horse should have a MOIST mouth, not one that is foaming and unable to swallow - it is only drooling because of the position of the neck prevents the poor horse from swallowing!!
BanRollkur 2 years ago
It make me sick to see this. We see so much of this in the upper levels. So sad :(
murphalicious1 2 years ago
great video! every dressage rider (or anyone who has business on a horse, for that matter) should see this and be warned.
evntr 2 years ago
oh and that would be dressage* multi-tasking fail.
Jeepgirlcj7 2 years ago
I do not ride, nor am I educated in the world of dressge. I have always enjoyed the art of dressge and was under the impression that it was about movement and the rider/horse working together in sync. After viewing this video I am sickened by this brutal technique. Again, I am not versed in this sport but I can see that it must be very painful for the horse. Please tell me there are professional riders out there who do not promote or practice this, can someone tell me who they are?
Jeepgirlcj7 2 years ago
There are many out there who do not ride with this method. I don't know all them off the top of my head since I haven't been following dressage lately, but a few are Cesar Parra, Lisa Wilcox, and Robert Dover. However, unfortunately, it is becoming more and more trendy to use.
daisyfields 2 years ago
True collection comes from suppling and developing the horse through training wich is what the sport of dressage is all about. The rollkuer is used to speed up this process but riders pay the price in the end when there horses go behind the vertical.
aosics 2 years ago
Okay, I'm an ignorant hunter and I know next to nothing about dressage. What is Rollkur? Is that a word for hyperflexion? The horses in the video looked miserable and I know hyperflexion is extremely stressful and harmful. So why do they crank the head back to the point where the horse can barely breath? And how often is this done? What do you consider non-abusive Rollkur and what's the purpose of it to begin with?
VictorsChick4ever 2 years ago
Rollkur is another word for hyperflexion. People say it should only done for a few minutes, however, it is done for entire training sessions, sometimes over an hour at a time. The purpose is that those who use it claim it supples the horse and allows it to use its back and hindend more effectively. It should actually only ever be done for few seconds at a time at high collection if one desires to use it.
daisyfields 2 years ago
That seems really unnecessary. Especially to do it excessively like that. Lunging and side reins can achieve collection and suppleness and without the stress and damage.
Thanks for explaining it.
VictorsChick4ever 2 years ago
they do it b/c its a supposedly "prettier" outline, and makes the horse more "willing" and "obedient". i wouldnt recommend using rollkur as a training technique. EVER. in a classical outline, the horses pole (bump btwn the ears) should be at the highest point and the neck should be an even, continuous arch, and the horses nose should either be on the vertical or just ever so slightly in front of it. rollkur goes against every single classical principle there is.
chrissyluvhorsey 2 years ago 3
I agree with you. I would never use it. It doesn't even look "pretty". It looks ugly and forced, which is exactly what you DON'T want in dressage.
I just don't have any respect for a rider who's horse is miserable or if they overlook the horse's welfare for the sake of looks.
VictorsChick4ever 2 years ago
what is hyperflexion?
xxsenixx 2 years ago
hyperflexion is over-bending the horses neck (hyper = excess, extension = bending). its supposedly to help the horse develop a "better" headset, but it does the opposite and can cause long-term injuries. that, and it flies in the face of all the Classical principles of dressage.
chrissyluvhorsey 2 years ago
I think this is an incredably biased video.
It only looks at the negatives of rollkur and the harm that can be done if it is done wrong or excesively.
The only thing this video proves is how people just see what they want to see.
movinon5 2 years ago
The problem is that is IS done wrong and excessively. If everyone did it a few times a session for a few seconds at a time this video wouldn't be here and there wouldn't be issue.
daisyfields 2 years ago
I understand what you are saying but I do think that there is almost a "stigma" now attached with hyperflexion. I'm sorry if that sounds a bit over-dramatic but I do feel like some people who use it (not in excess) are being attacked for it when they have done nothing wrong. Specially if your biggest medium is pictures which only captures a split second. I just wish people wouldnt be so biased.
movinon5 2 years ago
I think that was the point of the video. Perhaps hyperflexion used in moderation (ie how they describe that it should be used) may not have as greater detrimental effects, but hyperflexion as it is actually practised by "the best in the world" is, for lack of a better description, just wrong.
People don't necessarily just "see what they want", they research it and in some cases ride it even, then form an opinion on it.
The video being biased is the point of the video.
thecrazydolls 2 years ago 2
I agree with everything except the vision part, they can see more than their feet. Since they have eyes on the side of their head they can see much more. but i do agree that since their neck is so curled it impares it a little. but not like wat that picture said.
equijumper2 2 years ago
It doesn't impair the side view at all, just what is ahead of them which is why that is a problem. They can't really see where they're going.
daisyfields 2 years ago