Part 1: David Horowitz UC Santa Barbara May 12, 2008

[DeRocco21]

i wish michael savage talked at colleges

[casperado666]

@DeRocco21 he's a jew and a moron. why would you want him to influence the youth of your country

[StrummerDude27]

@casperado666

But of course you would rather have a Palestinian speak instead who preaches hate and the killing of innocent families including a 3-month old baby girl - the Fogel family massacre of this past weekend in which a mother (stabbed to death), father (throat slashed), 11-yr old boy (throat slashed), 3-yr old boy (stabbed in the heart twice), and 3-MONTH old girl (throat slashed) were all butchered.

[casperado666]

@StrummerDude27 dude, just cut the bs. if the palestinians were treated like humans there would be far less violence. Palestine is a concentration camp. which is very sad because jews who went through KZ's themselves should know better. peace

[keyboardplaya]

This guy used to be a Marxist.

The bottom line is, he began as an extremist, and that didn't work out, so he became a different kind of extremist.

Rush Limbaugh would say that "If you stand in the middle of the road, you get run over," but that's only because extremists aren't intelligent enough to move when a car's coming.

Doing the right thing isn't supposed to be easy. Mr. Horowitz obviously feels otherwise, and thinks in terms of black and white.

[hugoavila1]

@keyboardplaya

Yes. I learned about his tactics in my logic class my first year. It's called a false dilemma fallacy

He leaves out the possibility of both Hezbollah and Israel being both wrong. That is where he got these kids cornered

[StrummerDude27]

@hugoavila1

Doesn't matter, once someone supports a terrorist organization there is nothing more to be said...

[hugoavila1]

@StrummerDude27

Okay, let's try this: what nationality are you? or what is your lineage?

[StrummerDude27]

@hugoavila1

I am American born and raised.

[hugoavila1]

@StrummerDude27

I should have gone the woman's right route...

So let's make that question irrelevant. Let me use women's suffrage to make my point instead. If I asked you if you are for or against a woman's rights to equal that of men, you would either respond for or against. The way Horowitz uses his argument would be akin to claiming you are either a woman beater or a chauvinist depending on what you support. In this case, Horowitz is like a chauvinist claiming you are a woman beater (cont)

[hugoavila1]

(cont) because if you support a woman's equality, the you must also be for treating them like men treat men; and that means fighting amongst each other. But since it serves his argument, he will not allow another possibility to be possible such as: you are for woman's right's but not for beating on. It's an entirely plausible scenario that he would leave out based on how he argues his point. So when they claim to be against Israel expansion, he assumes they are also for terrorism (cont)

[hugoavila1]

(cont) A plausible explanation is that they may be against Israeli expansion into Gaza, but for terrorist activities. I am for US interests but not for our current policies. If Horowitz argued with me, he would create a false dilemma and claim that I must be a commie of or war monger; again, depending on which administration he sees eye to eye with (liberal or conservative) (cont)

[hugoavila1]

(cont) You said, "Doesn't matter, once someone supports a terrorist organization there is nothing more to be said..." except it has not been proven about them supporting terrorist activities. They happen to support Palestine which happens to be run by Hamas, unfortunately

I am not saying that they do or do not support terrorist acts, but rather that they are not allowed to explain so he cannot be proven correct yet

[StrummerDude27]

@hugoavila1

" They happen to support Palestine which happens to be run by Hamas, unfortunately"

That says it all - if someone supported the Nazi's during WWII, chances are they supported the mass killings of Jews as it was public in nature that Jewish blood was cheap and encompassed the whole country. Everyone knew about it much the same as everyone knew about black slavery in America in the 18th and 19th centuries. Supporting an entity run by a terrorist organization is supporting terrorism.

[StrummerDude27]

@hugoavila1

It comes down not only to Israel, but to also condemning terroristic activities on the part of the Palestinian and Muslim population as a whole. If Israel killed a civilian, I would condemn it. In fact, when a Jew shot up a Mosque and killed dozens, the Israeli gov't themselves condemned the attack. My question is simple as I think is Horowitz's point - if we can condemn acts of aggression, why can't these students admit the wrongs their people have committed?

[StrummerDude27]

@hugoavila1

"his argument would be akin to claiming you are either a woman beater or a chauvinist depending on what you support. "

I respectfully disagree - my reasoning being simply that of his outright statement that he is not against all Muslims. It seems as though he was after whether these people supported people like the guy who shot the woman on the soccer field (most definitely a terrorist) or if she is against those type of people. In other words, he put Hamas/Hezbollah in the cont.

[StrummerDude27]

@hugoavila1

same bowl as that of the man who shot off the womans head on the soccer field. If the MSA agreed that what the man did was wrong, against no more than his own sister of sorts, it would seem not a far cry that these same MSA representatives and members should openly scold Hamas and Hezbollah as they too are extremist organizations who kill with no precedent. In fact, they too kill their own kind (Hamas vs. Fatah) etc.

[hugoavila1]

I agree, he was after that, but his method is questionable. They may or may not support that behavior but his question was too broad and did not include the specifics or aberrations to the black and white thinking

[StrummerDude27]

@hugoavila1

You said "They may or may not support that behavior", I take it you haven't seen the video where Horowitz asked a girl in a Q&A session whether she supports Hezbollah who's leader wishes that all Jews move to Israel so they won't have to hunt them down. He asked her simply 'FOR it or against it. She said firmly - 'FOR it." I think this can be taken at face value, like the Germans, she feels Jewish blood is cheap and hopes all Jews will be exterminated.

[hugoavila1]

@StrummerDude27

The false dilemma is where he includes, "so they won't have to hunt them down"

There is no evidence that she wants to exterminate them for their faith. Turkey was Islamic in the 1940's and they took in a lot of Jews when they left Germany during WWII

They support a Palestinian state without the Jews. They are sore about their statehood being created by the UN after WWII. That is not the same as being an terrorist

[StrummerDude27]

@hugoavila1

"There is no evidence that she wants to exterminate them for their faith."

Again - Hamas/Hezbollah openly state in their charter their goal of exterminating not only Jews living in Israel but worldwide. She sided with Hamas/Hezbollah which means she sided with their beliefs as stated in their charter. Thus, by default she is saying she wants to exterminate Jews everywhere.

[StrummerDude27]

@hugoavila1

"too broad and did not include the specifics or aberrations to the black and white thinking"

Refer back to my last post - he was very straightforward when he asked this Muslim student whether she was for or against an organization which openly calls for the mass cold-blood murder of Jews worldwide. She was also straightforward with her response - a sharp and stinging "FOR IT". I rest my case...

[hugoavila1]

@StrummerDude27

During WWII, people may have been for Nazi Germany because they felt that the Aryan race was superior. But that does not mean that they called for an extermination of Jews in camps. They may have supported it because they blamed their countries woes on the Jews, true or not, and they wanted them out. Nobody else offered that sense of nationalism and it was easy to support because of the nationalistic aspect

[hugoavila1]

(cont)

Why didn't he ask, are you for the mass extermination of Jews? That would answer the question he tried to have them answer, except he asked the wrong question

[StrummerDude27]

@hugoavila1

"Why didn't he ask, are you for the mass extermination of Jews?"

It's explicitly implied in that if someone supports Hamas/Hezbollah who openly call for this, they are in fact saying they too are calling for the mass extermination of Jews on a global spectrum.

[hugoavila1]

@StrummerDude27

It is implied that those are the goals by Hamas. It is not implied that they support all of their goals. To find the truth, refer to my suggested question that should have been asked

I support the Nazi nationalism aspect but not the extermination of Jews. Do I support the Nazi's? Yes and no. Horowitz would not accept that kind of answer from me and just assume that I can be either for or against everything they advocated

[hugoavila1]

(cont)

That is a false dilemma. Look up the definition of it to make it clearer

[StrummerDude27]

@hugoavila1

In most simplistic terms, if someone says he/she supports Al Qaeda, that means they support terrorism as a means of ultimate world dominion by the Islamic radicals. This means they support any and all attacks by the radical sect - including 9/11. By supporting Hamas/Hezbollah, they support any and all actions done by them - including rocket attacks, suicide bombings, and the charter set forth by them claiming their aim as to completely annihilate Jews worldwide. Simple...

[hugoavila1]

@StrummerDude27

They state that they are against eradication of Jews in the beginning.

[StrummerDude27]

@hugoavila1

Who states? If by this you mean the students, than they are only proving what hypocrites they truly are. One cannot support a group who outright states their ultimate goal is to eradicate Jews worldwide and then claim they themselves don't wish to do this. Simple...

[StrummerDude27]

@hugoavila1

For a more in depth picture, refer to my last post where I bring Al-Qaeda into the picture...be sure to read and understand the parallels between the two before you respond.

[StrummerDude27]

@hugoavila1

"It is not implied that they support all of their goals."

You're correct, it's not implied. It is outright stated when they say (such as that girl in one of the videos) "FOR it". She could have said she's pro some of their goals, but in essence all of their goals lead to one ultimate goal - the complete annihilation of Jews worldwide. If she agrees with any of their goals, she agrees with this central goal.

[StrummerDude27]

@hugoavila1

"It is implied that those are the goals by Hamas."

It's outright stated in their charter, nothing need be implied.

[StrummerDude27]

@hugoavila1

The National Socialist gov't that the Nazi's was buttressed by was built on one main goal - this being any means of making the world completely Aryan. This indeed had aspects of nationalism as a subset, but by no means was it the central aim of the Nazi's. In other words, the nationalism aspect of Nazi Germany was built upon the ideology of a completely Aryan race. This meant obviously the complete and utter destruction of anyone else (Jews, Gypsies etc.). Understand?

[rollotwomassey]

Instead of just getting mindlessly angry why can't ANY of these questioners point out one clearly verifiable lie or mistaken bit of information? They're just ad hominem attacks. If they're so right and he's so wrong why don't they take him to task for it?

[EstherTsivia]

@rollotwomassey because he's right probably